EV Digest 4805
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Suggestions for genset.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 12 VOLT SWITCHMODE 12AMP FULLY AUTO CHARGER (CHEAP!!)
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 12 VOLT SWITCHMODE 12AMP FULLY AUTO CHARGER (CHEAP!!)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 48v charge controller
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 72vdc Altrax car conversion.
by Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Separate 12volt chargers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
by "stU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Separate 12volt chargers
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Separate 12volt chargers
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Any life in old forklift nicads?
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Friend needs advice on his 79 Lectric Leopard
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Thesis comments
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
by "stU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Friend needs advice on his 79 Lectric Leopard
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Any life in old forklift nicads?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Friend needs advice on his 79 Lectric Leopard
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Weeping battery tops/Floodies
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) OT: Driverless cars are here
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) EV Rookie
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Electric Cobra on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) RE: Weeping battery tops/Floodies
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Any life in old forklift nicads?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Friend needs advice on his 79 Lectric Leopard
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John Luck Home wrote:
> I've still not worked out whether I can use this system as I am
> concerned what happens when on regen as my pack terminal volts
> is +20% when braking.
That's what the lamp is for. With two 6.8v zeners and a PR2 lamp, the
voltage across your battery has to go up past (2 x 6.8v) + 2.5v = 16.1v
before the regulator itself is at risk. And if your batteries are
getting past 16v, *they* are at serious risk!
I'd set things up so if any regulator lights while driving, the light
causes the controller to cut back or abort regen!
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I read about the Long Ranger by AC Propulsion.. They do it with 20 kw 500
cc motorcycle motor 360 pounds total trailer weight, 60 amps at 300 volts. .
I figure I can take off 50 pounds for the trailer. 300 pounds wouldn't be
bad. I have the springs for it. I figure the Electravan Might do 100 amps
at a low speed on level ground no head wind. This is going to be harder
than I thought. If I am at 120vdc 120 amps will be equalivent to what Long
ranger does at higher voltage. It really is a very well thought out design.
I don't know if I can equal AC Propulsion's alternator design.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do you charge a 144volt car with $350 charger?
"Two of those would do a 144 volt
car for under $350. "
Where do we get it? what's the product number?
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:23:52 +1000, "Robert Chew"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Hey Dave, and the rest,
> >
> >Ok, so I get the point!! Hahaha.
> >
> >How bout this charger. Switchmode, 12volt @ 12 amps
> and cost 79.95 each
> >Aussie dollars. I can possibly get it less.
> www.jaycar.com.au - under
> >batteries and chargers and under chargers.
>
> Sorry, no patience to wade through that site to find
> the charger
> you're referring to.
>
> THE BEST 12 volt charger I've ever had in my lab is
> the Vector smart
> charger. Available in capacities from 10 to 40
> amps, they all execute
> a textbook perfect 3 stage charge cycle. Here is an
> example on
> amazon:
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009RB0T/104-2823148-7226312?v=glance
>
> Amazon is not the cheapest place to buy. Probably
> the best value is
> the 35 amp version. The large pod you see on the 40
> amp one below the
> yellow heat sink is an EMI filter, tacked on to meet
> FCC rules.
> Nothing else in there. The 35 amp model didn't
> require that and so is
> much smaller. This charger is power factor
> corrected and so draws
> minimal current from the line. I've seen the 35 amp
> version for
> around $50. Check Northern Tool and Harbor Freight.
> Some Walmarts
> carry this charger. Others carry a similar
> Schumacher charger.
>
> The one "problem" with this charger as far as EVs go
> is that it must
> be manually started. If you don't mind pushing the
> go button on 6
> chargers, it's ideal.
>
> If you want fully automatic chargers, look at the
> Progressive Dynamics
> 9100 series Intellicharge RV converter/chargers,
> equipped with the
> Charge Wizard. The Charge Wizard is an add-on
> microprocessor that
> turns the dumb Intellicharge into a smart 3 stage
> charger.
>
> http://www.progressivedyn.com/power_converters.html
>
> This charger with the Charge Wizard also does an
> almost perfect 3
> stage charge. Additionally, because the charger is
> aimed at RVs that
> sit much of the time, it has two additional battery
> maintenance modes.
> One switches to a topping charge about once a week
> and the other does
> an equalization about twice a month.
>
> The 30 amp version can be had in the $150 range
> while the Charge
> wizard costs about $18. To achieve your goal of
> individual chargers,
> I'd probably go with 3 24 volt units.
>
> This charger is fully automatic. Just plug it in
> and let 'er rip. I
> chatted with them when I was upgrading my car to 72
> volts. They offer
> a 72 volt charger by special order. Two of those
> would do a 144 volt
> car for under $350. Had I not found a used Zivan,
> I'd have gone that
> route.
>
> John
>
>
> >
> >Need 6 of these, a big step up from the manual
> chargers that I was going to
> >use.
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 23:13:11 -0700 (PDT), mike golub
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>How do you charge a 144volt car with $350 charger?
>"Two of those would do a 144 volt
>car for under $350. "
Simple math: 72 + 72 = 144. Two chargers hooked in series.
>
>Where do we get it? what's the product number?
Maybe if I quote what I wrote again....
>> I chatted with them when I was upgrading my car to 72
>> volts. They offer a 72 volt charger by special order.
I suggest giving them a call and chatting with their applications
engineer.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope.
Voltage would be too low.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 12:11 PM
Subject: 48v charge controller
>
http://www.battery-rechargeable-charger.com/car-auto-battery-charger-products.html
>
> Would this turn a 48v power supply into a "smartcharger", or is it not
smart
> enough?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence,
Well you've just described my project to the last detail. I have a 91
Festiva that I'm currently converting. I'm using a 6.7" D & D motor and an
Alltrax 7245 with 12 6V US Battery 2200. I've done some calculations using
the UVE EV calculator as well as some research on the Internet. You are
right, the car should get better performance than a NEV, but I'm not
expecting blistering performance. 0-30 MPH in about 10 seconds range of
about 30 miles or so at 80% DOD, enough to get me to work and back. In my
case the performace is directly related to the rather small motor at 11HP
(35HP peak) it may be a bit too small. I think better performance would be
achieved with a 9". In my case I'm working with a very limited budget which
forces me to downgrade all my components, but at least I'll still have my
EV. You can do a search for Bill and Sharon Hoopes and read up on their
Festiva or you could go to the following link which is another Festiva
conversion.
http://www.geocities.com/mathenybrian/kia.htm
Hope some of this helps,
Stefano
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 10/7/05, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Has anyone converted a car using an 72vdc/400 amp Altrax and a
> VW/Festiva/Sprint? What kind of hill climbing/sucess as a functional EV?
> Seems it might be good for Sacramento but San Francisco? I have some
> people
> interested but I don't want to advise if it is too wimpy. Options are 12
> golfcar, 6 each sealed batteries like an NEV of 6 flooded like an NEV.
> Thanks for any info. I'd have to think it would out perform an NEV.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
12 volts times 2.7 amps is 32 watts divided by $13.99 is 2.31 watts per
dollar. Recharge time is 50 hours for six of them.
PFC-50B is 75 amps at 90 volts (at end of charge) is 6750 watts divided by
$3000 is 2.25 watts per dollar. Recharge time is less than two hours.
It would take over 200 of those little chargers to get the same charge time
as a PFC-50B. Plus you would need oversize wiring to cope with the lower
power factor of the smaller chargers.
A single charger is much easier to install and maintain.
Don't bother with anything less than a 10 amp charger for 130 Ampere hour
batteries. 30 Amps would be about right.
I agree with David. Your best option is to find two used 36 volt golf car
chargers and hook each of them to half the pack. If you get chargers with
some smarts in them, the batteries will be happy and stick around a lot
longer.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Separate 12volt chargers
> Hi,
>
> Way of checking for isolated output is it through its use of a
transformer.
> The AC power plug has neutral and active that's it. In terms of using
these
> chargers for equalization charge. Can they be left for a extended period
of
> time and then let the voltage increase slightly. The version I am looking
at
> is the Projecta MC400 manual battery charger. Please check it out on their
> website.
>
> www.projecta.com.au under products and manual battery chargers.
>
> Hey this thing will cost me $13.99 Aussie dollars. If all fails, at least
I
> have 6 battery chargers to play around with. Not a big cost.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Why not make the 'chain' = 13.6V and leave it there?
6.8 + 2.5 + 4.3
stU
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 12:07 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Lee Hart's zener lamp regulator & kluge
John Luck Home wrote:
> I've still not worked out whether I can use this system as I am
> concerned what happens when on regen as my pack terminal volts
> is +20% when braking.
That's what the lamp is for. With two 6.8v zeners and a PR2 lamp, the
voltage across your battery has to go up past (2 x 6.8v) + 2.5v = 16.1v
before the regulator itself is at risk. And if your batteries are
getting past 16v, *they* are at serious risk!
I'd set things up so if any regulator lights while driving, the light
causes the controller to cut back or abort regen!
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI all,
Yeah I do agree about the two 36 v chargers. However, I did enquire around
some golf shops including one which donated a motor to me. And they range
from 400-600 dollars second hand. Ouch. I could get a used forklift charger
for less than that, but then not very suitable for EV use as its too damn
big and heavy.
My next best option at the moment is to use 6 separate 12 volt 12 amp
switchmode fully auto chargers at 70 bux each. That's not too bad I guess
and they are lightweight and isolated.
Anyone can find detailed specs on the Powertech range of switchmode
chargers. Cause I tried but can't find any.
How about using two 300 VA toroids, at 40 volts each @ 7.5 amps and hooking
the outputs in series to get roughly 80 volts, well a bit less with the use
of a bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor. Will work something like the
cheap transformer dumb chargers and will need monitoring to avoid over
charging. That way I could have a neat, 72 volt charger with adequate charge
current. Would cost me roughly 120 for the transformers.
When I pulled apart the dumb 4 amp chargers, there was just a transformer
with a diode on each secondary winding with the common earth going to the
center tap. These diodes are rated at 3 amps each and at 400Volts.
Can a similar principle work for the toroids with a 10 amp bridge rectifier
and hopefully the internal resistance of the battery will alter its charge
current and voltage just like how it worked for the dumb chargers.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/9/05, Robert Chew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> How about using two 300 VA toroids, at 40 volts each @ 7.5 amps and hooking
> the outputs in series to get roughly 80 volts, well a bit less with the use
> of a bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor. Will work something like the
> cheap transformer dumb chargers and will need monitoring to avoid over
> charging. That way I could have a neat, 72 volt charger with adequate charge
> current. Would cost me roughly 120 for the transformers.
Yeah, that'll work, especially if you put a fan on it. Except that
after recification, the voltage is roughly 1.41 greater than the AC
voltage, not less. So maybe you want 30V windings.
If you're trying to make a charger on the cheap, make it using scrap
parts that you can get for free. For example, start with an old
microwave oven transformer, and wind your own secondary to the correct
voltage. Put taps in to make it more controllable.
Mark Hanson has posted about how to do this before (1.5kW charger),
search the archives.
This way, you'll learn more, and when you break things, it's won't be
as expensive.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A forklift repair guy that is going to give me a 36v motor mentioned that
recycling nicad packs was a nightmare. Some posts I've read, however,
suggest they last nearly forever. Perhaps there might be more life in these
packs, even if they're not sufficient for industry?
1) When a forklift pack "dies", can one remove or bypass a reversed cell (if
they have such a thing) or repair/tweak/desulfate (joke) them in any way?
This would reduce voltage, but with two packs...
2) Should I consider getting a couple of 36v nicad forklift packs to run in
series for EV use? "Free" is appealing, but they sure look heavy.
3) Do I want to be saddled with the hazardous material? Economy now might be
a major headache later, even if it did work.
Yes, I know that as a newbie I am quite likely to kill my first set or two
of batteries, but the budget won't permit even the acquistion of used GC
batteries at this time. Would I be better off to wait until money is
available, or might used forklift nicads provide a way around the money
constraint?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend of mine recently purchased a 79 Lectric Leopard and asked me for
some help modifying it to meet his needs. More details:
- 79 Lectric Leopard
- Stock 24 / 48 V contactor controller
- Current batteries - Eight 12 V deep cycle marine batteries (the larger
ones). It is hard to say what the performance of these things is when loaded
at
EV drain rates. Each battery is in parallel with another one. Then, each
group is used to create one of the 24 V packs. The two packs are switched
parallel / series by the contactors. My best guess is that it is equivilant to
having eight T125's, which is half of what the car originally had. Based on my
experience, I told him that should make the car go about 30 MPH and have a
range
of about 12 miles. If it does that, then I assume those batteries are OK and
don't need replacement. Can someone confirm their experience with the larger
off the shelf 12 V deep cycle marine batteries (I think about 115 AH at 25 A
drain)? Oddly enough, one of them has a sticker on it stating over 200 AH.
Could that be right? They are about the same size as the ones I have seen
rated
at 115 AH.
- Charger - 1 off the shelf 12 V deep cycle battery charger charging them in
banks. It takes about 4 days to fully charge this way. The batteries are
charged 2 in parallel.
His needs:
35 - 45 MPH cruising speed (but must be able to go 45 MPH even on a slight
grade)
30 mile range
My proposal -
1. Add 4 more batteries - same as it already has - make it a 36 / 72 V
system. Or, add 2 more T105's and make it a 30 / 60 system - using the
original
contactor. Or, add the 4 batteries and keep it 24 / 48. He already has these
batteries available so it is no cost to test it out.
2. Get a Rusco SC-18-120 charger (what I have experience with) or equivilent.
It needs to be adjustable because he doesn't know if the car will remain 48
V, 60 V, 72 V, 84 V, or 96 V long term. Can anyone recommend a good charger
and where to get it for him.
3. Ultimately, replace the controller with a PWM. I would use a 500 A
controller if possible. But, I wasn't sure if the Curtis 500 A model goes down
to
72 V. Any other ideas?
4. The 30 mile range is still a stretch. With what he has, any suggestions?
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Would anyone be interested in reading, commenting on my electric conversion
thesis so. I have to get a seminar ready and also start to do some write up.
And I would greatly appreciate some feedback and thoughts on the results and
methods that I have been using. If so please email me directly.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 9, 2005, at 5:43 AM, stU wrote:
Why not make the 'chain' = 13.6V and leave it there?
6.8 + 2.5 + 4.3
A regulator built with a 6.8 and a 4.3 volt zener would begin passing
current at only 10.9 volts! You would have to leave the battery on the
charger all the time because when the charger was off the battery would
be discharging. The lamps would be on all the time (a 2.5 volt bulb
will make a fair amount of light at 1.5 volts.)
Also, it takes way to long to charge a battery at 13.6 volts. A
regulator so built would have a very short life when the battery was
brought up to 14.7 to 15.0 volts to finish charging. EVs need to charge
overnight (or faster). A 13.6 volt limit won't accomplish this.
Paul "neon" Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 9, 2005, at 5:43 AM, stU wrote:
> Why not make the 'chain' = 13.6V and leave it there?
>
> 6.8 + 2.5 + 4.3
>
A regulator built with a 6.8 and a 4.3 volt zener would begin passing
current at only 10.9 volts!
Are you including the voltage drop due to the resistance of the lamp?
Paul "neon" Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
stU wrote:
> Why not make the 'chain' = 13.6V and leave it there? 6.8 + 2.5 + 4.3
You need to pick the zener voltages to be higher than the normal "fully
charged" voltage of your battery. I've built 12v versions with one 6.2v
and one 6.8v zener (=13.0v) or two 6.8v zeners (=13.6v), and 8v versions
with two 5.1v zeners (=10.2v).
A 6.8v and 4.3v zener (=11.1v) is too high for an 8v battery, and too
low for a 12v battery. It would have no effect on an 8v battery, and
would run a 12v battery dead!
I try to make the zeners the same value to distribute the heat more
equally between them.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A friend of mine recently purchased a 79 Lectric Leopard and asked
> me for some help modifying it to meet his needs.
The stock charger and controller setup was about as crude as it could
be. Probably *too* crude for any normal driver! It's simple and works,
but that's about all you can say for it.
> - Current batteries - Eight 12 V deep cycle marine batteries (the
> larger ones). It is hard to say what the performance of these
> things is when loaded at EV drain rates.
No, it's not. It's poor! He would be better off with 6v golf cart
batteries. They are cheaper, would last longer, and deliver more power.
> My best guess is that it is equivalant to having eight T125's, which
> is half of what the car originally had.
I agree.
> Based on my experience, I told him that should make the car go about
> 30 MPH and have a range of about 12 miles.
The top speed will be higher; more like 40-45 mph. But your range
estimate is about right, assuming what he has are ordinary "marine" 12v
batteries weighing about 60-65 lbs each.
> Oddly enough, one of them has a sticker on it stating over 200 AH.
> Could that be right?
No, not a chance, unless they weigh well over 100 lbs each.
> - Charger - 1 off the shelf 12 V deep cycle battery charger charging
> them in banks. It takes about 4 days to fully charge this way.
> The batteries are charged 2 in parallel.
The stock charger (which wasn't very good) wasn't *this* bad! I would
suggest he dump his 12v charger, and get a normal 24v or 48v charger.
> His needs:
> - 35-45 MPH cruising speed (but must be able to go 45 MPH even on
> a slight grade)
Depending on what he means by a "slight" hill, this will be hard to do.
The Lectric Leopard has a series motor, and it slows down a lot as the
load increases. To go 45 mph up even a modest hill will require having
enough power available that is would go 70+mph on flat ground.
> 30 mile range
Not too hard, but it will take 750+lbs of lead-acid batteries. I get
this range with my Lectric Leopard with twelve 12v batteries (756 lbs).
> My proposal -
> 1. Add 4 more batteries ... and keep it 24/48. He already has these
> batteries available so it is no cost to test it out.
If he insists on using these 12v batteries, then adding 4 more of them
is the best of your options. Keep it 24/48v; wire them in two 24v
groups, each with 3 in parallel, and two in series.
When he murders them (and it won't take long), suggest that he use
twelve 6v golf cart batteries instead.
> 2. Get a Russco SC-18-120 charger (what I have experience with) or
> equivalent. It needs to be adjustable because he doesn't know if
> the car will remain 48 V, 60 V, 72 V, 84 V, or 96 V long term.
> Can anyone recommend a good charger and where to get it for him.
He sounds cheap. The Russco is expensive. He may prefer to get a used
48v golf cart charger.
The Russco is also not isolated. He'll have problems with shock hazards
and/or GFCI shutdowns with flooded batteries.
> 3. Ultimately, replace the controller with a PWM. I would use a
> 500A controller if possible.
With the present 48v pack, 500a will provide poor performance. The stock
contactor setup can hit 1000 amps, and even it accellerated slowly.
> But, I wasn't sure if the Curtis 500A model goes down to 72 V.
> Any other ideas?
Curtis has lots of lower-voltage controllers. They have 24v, 36v, 48v,
72v, 96v, 120v, and 144v models. But understand that Curtis advertises
the peak current; the actual current is perhaps half this. What Curtis
calls a "500 amp" controller actually delivers about 250 amps
continuous-duty.
If he wants to go faster and farther, he needs to understand that he has
the wrong batteries, wrong controller, wrong motor, and wrong charger.
He can fix all these things, but it will be expensive! He basically
needs to start all over and re-convert it to be fully satisfied with the
results.
I re-converted my Lectric Leopard for about $5000. It has an Advanced DC
L91 6.7" motor, Curtis 1231C controller, twelve 12v sealed AGM batteries
(Concorde 12v 95ah 63 lbs each), and a homemade charger. Range is 30-40
miles, top speed over 70 mph, and it will do 45 mph up a modest hill.
> 4. The 30 mile range is still a stretch. With what he has, any
> suggestions?
As we've said, range is simply a matter of having enough pounds of lead.
He doesn't have enough; he'll have to add at least 50% more.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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stU wrote:
> Are you including the voltage drop due to the resistance of the lamp?
Lamps don't behave like resistors; they behave more like a current
source. The PR2 draws 0.5amp at 2.38v, but 0.2amp at 0.238v. In other
words, a 10:1 change in voltage only causes a little more than 2:1
change in current.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hello Tim,
Some time ago, I was working in a government defense agency battery shop that
maintain nicad batteries. It was a common practice to remove a pack of 30 cell
pack from a aircraft every 30 days.
Unlike doing a balance charge we do with lead-acid batteries, where we would
charge the lead-acid batteries to 2.77 volts per cell, we do a discharge
balance on the nicads.
Nicads need to by cycle every 30 days if not in used. In a aircraft even if
used, we do a balance cycle and other maintenance every 30 days.
Every 300 discharge-charge cycles we replace this battery.
We than measure the electrolyte specific gravity, which I think was 1.200 at
full charge. The electrolyte is KOH or potassium hydroxide.
If was not at 1.200, then we charge it until it was at 1.200. The full charge
voltage of a nicad cell is 1.65 volts per cell. For 36 volt pack which is a 30
cells, that would be 1.65 x 30 = 49.5 volts.
We removed the electrolyte and put in new 1.200 electrolyte. If you replace
the electrolyte with new electrolyte, always replace with the same specific
gravity reading you take out. This procedure may not be necessary for a EV.
To balance the voltages of each cell, than we install shorting bars with the
correct resistance across each cell and monitor each cell voltage until it
reaches 1.1 volts per cell.
A 0.03 amp shorting bar load or 1.1v/0.03A = 36.6 ohms load per cell. Going
across all 30 cells of your 36 volt battery, you can used:
30 cells x 1.1 volt = 33 volts
33 volts / 0.03 amps = 1100 ohm load.
Discharge either the 36 volt pack until it reaches 33 volts and then charge it
until it reaches 49.5 volts.
If the battery is new or been setting for a long time with any charging, than
do about 10 discharges and recharges which may be need to bring the batteries
up to full capacity.
Sometimes, if we have a cell that the voltage would drop rapidly, more than the
others. Then we would used a shorting bar on that cell and take it down to 0
volts. Measure the electrolyte specific gravity and put in new electrolyte of
the same value that was taken out.
We would than cycle that cell many times and sometimes it could be put into
operation. If not, than we discharged with a full metal shorting bar, remove
the electrolyte and ship it out for deposal.
In reinstalling these cells that went into a epoxy coated aluminum battery box,
we grease up the entire surface of this battery with GE Silicone Dielectric
Grease, the same type you would used on spark plug wire booths, except you can
get it larger containers.
We had specialized battery chargers that had multiple leads that could charge
36 separate cells or any voltage from 1.2 to 100 volts.
I had to order one of these battery chargers, which are stock by the Federal
Depot. I got the bill for $1,000,000.00. I had to write a ton of forms that
they made a mistake. It took them six months, to change it to $10,000.00. Than
they jack up the price of wire that normally cost $39.00 a roll to $3900.00 a
roll.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Stephenson<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 8:19 AM
Subject: Any life in old forklift nicads?
A forklift repair guy that is going to give me a 36v motor mentioned that
recycling nicad packs was a nightmare. Some posts I've read, however,
suggest they last nearly forever. Perhaps there might be more life in these
packs, even if they're not sufficient for industry?
1) When a forklift pack "dies", can one remove or bypass a reversed cell (if
they have such a thing) or repair/tweak/desulfate (joke) them in any way?
This would reduce voltage, but with two packs...
2) Should I consider getting a couple of 36v nicad forklift packs to run in
series for EV use? "Free" is appealing, but they sure look heavy.
3) Do I want to be saddled with the hazardous material? Economy now might be
a major headache later, even if it did work.
Yes, I know that as a newbie I am quite likely to kill my first set or two
of batteries, but the budget won't permit even the acquistion of used GC
batteries at this time. Would I be better off to wait until money is
available, or might used forklift nicads provide a way around the money
constraint?
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I believe you can run that motor at 72 or possibly even 96 volts if you're
careful not to overspeed it. So here's what I'd do.
Find a good, loving home for the current batteries, one where they won't be
asked to produce more than 25 amps (what they were designed for).
Drop in 12 to 16 golf car batteries (the conversion was originally designed for
16). Connect them all in series, and use a PWM controller. Curtis makes a
usable 96v controller, and Alltrax a cheap 72v one. Acceleration will not be
too impressive, but it will be adequate for most needs. I'd probably use a
Zivan (96v) or Delta-Q (72v) charger, but there are a few other possibilities.
To save some further money on the charger, retain the series/parallel
switching. Divide the pack up and rig the contactors so it's 48 volts when
charging and 96 volts when driving. Then use a 36 or 48 volt golf car charger.
The 72v setup will barely make the 30 mile requirement. It's quite possible
that he'll murder the batteries quickly if he uses the full 30 miles very
often.
You can expect something more like 40 miles with 96v of golf car batteries
(about half a ton of lead), perhaps more with very careful driving.
Others here will probably have more ideas for you.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> <<<<One would think that for <50 cents, John's zener/lamp
> would be incorporated into all (cheap) 12V battery chargers.>>>>
>
> Depends on how cheap you mean: really cheap chargers are made
> by companies who wouldn't pop for the extra 2 zeners, but
> those are ones without any indicator lights. Ones with
> indicators probably have more than a couple zeners to turn
> their lights off and on, but that may be more than what you
> think of as a cheap charger.
First, it is Lee's zener/lamp regulator, and there would be no point at
all to including one on a 12V charger: when you have a charger per
battery you don't need regulators!
Cheers,
Roger.
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Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Guys, I've been charging my USB 8VGCHC just like I'm
> supposed to, and I have electrolyte dripping out of a
> couple of caps here & there. Unfortunately, the worst
> culprits are right above my adapter plate and motor!
> Obvious solution is to swap a battery there for one
> that isn't weeping. But what does it mean? They're a
> year old/3K miles on them!
If you are sure the electrolyte level is correct, then try swapping cell
caps with some cells that aren't leaking, and that wouldn't be as
objectionable if they leak after the cell cap swap. Much easier to swap
cell caps than entire batteries!
I would expect that the cells that are leaking may be doing so simply
because their caps aren't sealing as well as they could, or perhaps
because those cells are becoming full a bit before the others and so are
gassing a bit longer and/or a bit more vigorously.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Science fiction becomes reality yet again.
After a lackluster performance at this DARPA sponsored competion last year,
many entries have completed the 132 mile course.
A couple of quotes of interest-
"The dream of cars driving themselves is becoming a reality,'' said
Sebastian Thrun, the computer science professor who led the Stanford team.
"Before, the question was whether it was possible. Now we know it is."
"It's a no-brainer that 50 to 60 years from now, cars will drive themselves"
"It's going to change everything, The military applications are just one
side of it, but the civilian side will be much larger.''
Lt. Col. Carlo Simon, chief of maintenance for the army of Luxembourg
Story here-
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/10/09/BAGH3F4PLR1.DTL
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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I graduated in August with a BS in Mechanical Engineering, and I?m looking for
ways to get involved with electric vehicles. Please advise about good
resources (books, websites, contacts) to get myself started. I?m interested in
doing IC engine ? electric conversions and learning more about both the
limitations of battery power and the struggle between automakers and lovers of
EVs. This is something I?m very passionate about, so any advice I could get
would really be appreciated.
Cheers, Brad
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4581270577
Would be even more impressive to equip with a Zilla and some Orbitals instead of
a 1221b and and floodeds!
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On 9 Oct 2005 at 10:21, Roger Stockton wrote:
> I would expect that the cells that are leaking may be doing so simply
> because their caps aren't sealing as well as they could ...
Hmm. Do you have the one-piece lever type caps, or the one-per-cell
bayonet type caps? The former are notorious for seeping electrolyte. If
that's
what you have, you might try contacting USBMC. They sell bayonet caps
fairly cheaply, IIRC.
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I'm hardly an expert on nicads, but some of what Roland has written here really
surprises
me. I've never heard such things before - at least not in association with EV
size flooded
nicads.
Most of what I know I've gleaned from Saft manuals for their STM range, so it's
possible
that it doesn't entirely apply. Still one wouldn't expect so much difference.
Comments
below.
On 9 Oct 2005 at 10:33, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Unlike doing a balance charge we do with lead-acid batteries, where we
> would charge the lead-acid batteries to 2.77 volts per cell, we do a
> discharge balance on the nicads.
Saft recommends an ordinary equalization charge, based on the total number of
discharged amp hours. When the total discharge AH exceeds their threshold,
you're
supposed to perform the equalization. A full discharge is what they call a
reconditioning
cycle, and is only performed when the capacity is in the tank.
>
> Nicads need to by cycle every 30 days if not in used. In a aircraft
> even if used, we do a balance cycle and other maintenance every 30
> days.
>
Nicads are not subject to sulfation or other damage from sitting idle, so I
don't see any
absolute "need to be cycled." However their self discharge is higher than lead
batteries',
so the above may be necessary to maintain the battery at nearly full charge for
this
particular application.
> Every 300 discharge-charge cycles we replace this battery.
Please tell me where you discard them - I'd like to raid your dumpster! Every
flooded
nicad I know of will maintain 80% or more of its specified capacity for between
1500 and
3000 cycles.
>
> We than measure the electrolyte specific gravity, which I think was
> 1.200 at full charge. The electrolyte is KOH or potassium hydroxide.
> If was not at 1.200, then we charge it until it was at 1.200.
In nickel based batteries, the electrolyte serves only as an ion carrier. It
doesn't take part
in the charge / discharge reaction, so I don't see any mechanism for a change
in the SG
with SOC. Of course - as I say - I'm not an electrochemist. Perhaps someone
familiar
with electrochemistry can enlighten me on this.
> The full
> charge voltage of a nicad cell is 1.65 volts per cell. For 36 volt
> pack which is a 30 cells, that would be 1.65 x 30 = 49.5 volts.
The nominal voltage of a nicad is 1.2 to 1.25 volts per cell. The above
apparently refers to
the on charge voltage, and is pretty close to what I'm familiar with. Saft
says that when
voltage gets to this point you stop the bulk charge and begin what they call
"overcharge"
(finish stage).
>
> We removed the electrolyte and put in new 1.200 electrolyte. If you
> replace the electrolyte with new electrolyte, always replace with the
> same specific gravity reading you take out. This procedure may not be
> necessary for a EV.
>
Several people familiar with Saft nicads have told me that I should consider
the cell caps
to be fixed in place, that removing them is usually the first step in
destroying the
monoblock! If the electrolyte is polluted with H2SO4 (for example, if a
contaminated
watering system is used) the blocks are best returned to the manufacturer for
servicing.
Others with more nicad maintenance experience may have a different perspective
on this.
> To balance the voltages of each cell, than we install shorting bars
> with the correct resistance across each cell and monitor each cell
> voltage until it reaches 1.1 volts per cell.
This would seem to correspond with the first step of Saft's (re)conditioning
regimen.
> Discharge either the 36 volt pack until it reaches 33 volts and then
> charge it until it reaches 49.5 volts.
This (49.5v) sounds too low for a (re)conditioning charge, but I don't have the
manual with
me right now, so I can't check.
> If the battery is new or been setting for a long time with any
> charging, than do about 10 discharges and recharges which may be need
> to bring the batteries up to full capacity.
If capacity is found to be below specifications, Saft recommends a conditioning
charge.
They don't suggest that further cycling is required, but I suppose it wouldn't
hurt.
= = = = =
I'm very surprised at the significant differences between Saft's EV nicad
recommendations and what Roland describes for aircraft nicads. Can anyone
offer any
thoughts of why the aircraft batteries he's describing would require such
different
treatment from EV nicads?
I wonder too what maintenance regimen is are appropriate for the aircraft
nicads that
some on this list are using for EVs.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve and All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A friend of mine recently purchased a 79 Lectric Leopard and asked me for
some help modifying it to meet his needs. More details:
- 79 Lectric Leopard
- Stock 24 / 48 V contactor controller
- Current batteries - Eight 12 V deep cycle marine batteries (the larger
ones). It is hard to say what the performance of these things is when loaded at
EV drain rates. Each battery is in parallel with another one. Then, each
group is used to create one of the 24 V packs. The two packs are switched
parallel / series by the contactors. My best guess is that it is equivilant to
having eight T125's, which is half of what the car originally had. Based on my
experience, I told him that should make the car go about 30 MPH and have a
range
of about 12 miles. If it does that, then I assume those batteries are OK and
don't need replacement. Can someone confirm their experience with the larger
off the shelf 12 V deep cycle marine batteries (I think about 115 AH at 25 A
drain)? Oddly enough, one of them has a sticker on it stating over 200 AH.
Could that be right? They are about the same size as the ones I have seen rated
at 115 AH.
- Charger - 1 off the shelf 12 V deep cycle battery charger charging them in
banks. It takes about 4 days to fully charge this way. The batteries are
charged 2 in parallel.
His needs:
35 - 45 MPH cruising speed (but must be able to go 45 MPH even on a slight
grade)
30 mile range
My proposal -
1. Add 4 more batteries - same as it already has - make it a 36 / 72 V
system. Or, add 2 more T105's and make it a 30 / 60 system - using the original
contactor. Or, add the 4 batteries and keep it 24 / 48. He already has these
batteries available so it is no cost to test it out.
His best bet by far is to put 16 -t-105 or better t125's or US batt
equvilent 6v Golf cart types if he wants good life, accereration and range. Use
any other system and it will have a short battery life. The motor really sucks
amps as it should to get power at 48vdc.
2. Get a Rusco SC-18-120 charger (what I have experience with) or equivilent.
It needs to be adjustable because he doesn't know if the car will remain 48
V, 60 V, 72 V, 84 V, or 96 V long term. Can anyone recommend a good charger
and where to get it for him.
Get a Lester 48vdc charger, fairly cheap and does well. You may find a
GC 48vdc charger if you call around GC shops. I build my own but that takes
some e skill.
3. Ultimately, replace the controller with a PWM. I would use a 500 A
controller if possible. But, I wasn't sure if the Curtis 500 A model goes down
to
72 V. Any other ideas?
Yes, that's a great way to go if you want to go slower, spent much
more money. Stick with the contactor controller at least to start with. You
have a low voltage system, use it that way and you will be happy with long life
and cost effective transport.
To equal the contactor controller you will ned a 1000 amp controller
though there are some reasonable priced 1,000 amp/48vdc controllers now.
4. The 30 mile range is still a stretch. With what he has, any suggestions?
He will have no problem with 40 mile range and 60 mph if he goes to
the original set up. Driven at around 45mph a 16 batt pack of T125's will
probably get you over 60 mile range. Maybe someone who has had one in original
set up can comment. But few have been pleased with how slow their's got with
electronic controllers.
The one thing that should be done is the batts in the back are badly
mounted, make them much stronger for safety or if you get in a wreck, they will
be jioning you in the front and that's not good.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Thanks,
Steve
---------------------------------
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