EV Digest 4817
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) German monster headlines show
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: NiMH charging.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: rotary engine for generator
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: rotary engine for generator
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Peanut Gallery
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: FW: DC to DC **PLEASE CLOSE THREAD**
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Plenty of cheap gliders?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Peanut Gallery
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: rotary engine for generator
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: rotary engine for generator
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: FW: DC to DC **PLEASE CLOSE THREAD**
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: rotary engine for generator
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: rotary engine for generator
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: rotary engine for generator
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Those Allbright contactors
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: rotary engine for generator
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: German monster headlines show
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: rotary engine for generator
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: rotary engine for generator
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: rotary engine for generator
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Peanut Gallery
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: [ev] Re: rotary engine for generator
by Tony Godshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: rotary engine for generator
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) generator for rotary engine, was Re: rotary engine for generator
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Challenging Drive
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: rotary engine for generator
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
A page 2 article in our local paper used the headline above for an article
on a German concept car made by Maybach, at the Australian motor show, the
Maybach Exelero.
Lots of waffle about built by a team of prototype specialists, 0-100km/h in
4.4 seconds, 700hp, 351km/h at the Nardo speed bowl..
"Its four wheels are powered by individual electric motors which emit only
water"
Huh? - well you can't expect any kind of accuracy of reporting in anything
printed for mass consumption these days but that would imply a
hydrogen-foolcell charged EV! Online articles talk of a V-12 turbo engine.
Anyone know anything more about this? If so it may be another indicator of
the progression of the insidious nature of the practicality of electric
power winning out, and give another vehicle to point to and say "see,
electric powered!"
Regards,
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Like NiCds, the higher the charge rate, the quicker things
> > go BANG if you miss the telltale signs of nearing full charge.
>
> Problem seems to be the NiMH is very subtle about it's
> voltage drop. If you have a good sized string you might
> miss it before the voltage goes up again.
Absolutely; the issue is the same as with NiCds, it is just that much
more difficult to detect the termination criteria with NiMH.
> NiMH and NiCD are a bit different in this regard: Apparently
> you're not supposed to trickle charge NiMH batteries.
Can you point me to literature to this effect? I would be very
interested to read it.
Literature I have seen, for example,
<http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_Ni
MH_ChargeMethods.pdf>
<http://www.powerstream.com/NiMH.htm>
both indicate that trickle charging *is* a normal part of any NiMH
recharge. What the Panasonic literature indicates is that leaving a
NiMH battery on trickle indefinitely (what we generally would refer to
as a sort of 'float' charging, not 'trickle' charging as they
confusingly do) is unadvisable:
"The overcharging of nickel-metal hydride
batteries, even by trickle charging, causes a
deterioration in the characteristics of the
batteries. To prevent overcharging by trickle
charging or any other charging method, the
provision of a timer to regulate the total charging
time is recommended." (Panasonic)
However, their advice is to finish charging the battery by trickle
charging it after the -dV/dt or dT/dt criteria has terminated any fast
charge phase.
The Powerstream literature goes one further, stating that as long as the
trickle rate is <C/10 it may be continued indefinitely as the NiMH
cell's oxygen recombination can keep up at such a low rate. Panasonic
recommends a trickle rate of C/20-C/30, and advises that trickle
charging forever even at that low rate will cause cell deterioration
(and so recommend charge not be allowed to continue beyond 10-20hours).
> Part of the reason you can't
> replace NiCDs with NiMH in many devices; dumb chargers that
> apply a C/10 constant charge will cook NiMH batteries.
I think the issue is not the application of a C/10 constant current, but
the fact that dumb NiCd chargers don't include a timer to halt the
constant current after, say, 20 hours.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Moller bought the original patents and designs from OMC many years ago
and designed their engine from it.
Freedom Motors is a subsidiary of Moller Industries. They're actually a
sales branch for the Moller engine itself. Freedom Motors calls it the
RotaPower engine. Freedom Motors then licensed the design to RotaMax,
Inc. I'm not sure how the name Thermo Fan, Inc works in there. Since
RotaMax is apparently named for that rotary engine perhaps it is a
subsidiary Thermo Fan created to deal with making that engine. So
they're apparently calling it the RotaMax. In any case, it's the same
engine.
Actually I'm a bit of a fan of Moller's mix of genius, quack, and "Life
Extension Almond Butter". Sorry about the Skycar trivia, just had to
toss in the background info on it.
Many do expect the engine to be hella loud, the exhaust system
requirements are one thing people are waiting to see. It's already
known it will produce exceptionally high EGTs which make the exhaust
glow, I think they said it had to be stainless to take the temps.
Additional reflective heat shields may be required.
Danny
Nick Austin wrote:
RotaMax is produced by Thermo Fan.
You can find more information about this here:
http://rotarynews.com/node/view/667
On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 06:49:24PM +0100, Evan Tuer wrote:
On 10/13/05, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bit of history on that-
Rotamax is the Wankel engine that Moller designed for his flying Skycar.
Moller Industries has been the king of vapor marketing. For some 10 yrs
they're saying the Skycar is ready to go in 6 months when in reality
they're far away from a consumer product, if such a thing is ever
possible, much less FAA approval which could take 10 yrs.
I think you're thinking of the Rotapower: http://www.freedom-motors.com/
I don't know anything about the RotaMax other than what's on their web
page, but I don't see any connection to any moller vaporware. And, as
I said, they are actually taking orders for it.
The rest is off topic, so no comment :)
Regards
Evan
Evan Tuer wrote:
http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
110 lbs
44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
propane, etc. at additional cost."
Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 04:16:25PM -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
<..snip..>
>
> Many do expect the engine to be hella loud, the exhaust system
> requirements are one thing people are waiting to see. It's already
> known it will produce exceptionally high EGTs which make the exhaust
> glow, I think they said it had to be stainless to take the temps.
> Additional reflective heat shields may be required.
Is there anyway to recycle some of that heat? Blasting it all out the back
sounds terribly inefficient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ditto here, and well said, I might add.
NJ may come off as rough cut, but in this instance he was no more abrasive
than say, jeweler's rouge.
Marv
> From: Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:22:59 -0400
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Peanut Gallery was: DC to DC **PLEASE CLOSE THREAD**
>
> Ken Trough wrote:
>> Neon John said:
>>
>>>>> I suppose the first item is to attempt to disabuse you of the
>>>>> sophomoric Madison Avenue-generated idea of there always being the
>>>>> one True Best Product and the corollary that more money buys "better".
>>
>>
>> List Mod David said:
>>
>>>> The thread's originator has declared his problem solved. It's time
>>>> to close this thread.
>>
>>
>> Hump said:
>>
>>> It appears you have an issue with "everything Neon John posts".>
>>
>>
>> I appreciate the informative content of Neon John's posts, but I feel
>> that the personal derogatory comments have no place here and that David
>> is right on when he asks John to leave that out of his posts. The
>> characterization of another list member's views as "sophomoric" was
>> unnecessary to the point John was making.
>>
>> Is it possible that John can share data and express himself without
>> putting anyone down in the process??
>>
>> -Ken Trough
>> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
>> http://visforvoltage.com
>> AIM/YM - ktrough
>> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
> Perhaps it is because the quote is taken out of context, but when I read
> the Neon sentence about "sophomoric Madison-Avenue idea" I don't hear a
> put-down of anyone-- I just hear common folk-wisdom. Marketing is often
> hype, and pricing is often a false-indicator of quality. A bit of
> cynicism is healthy and sane for enlightened consumers.
>
> It is common for humans to interpret, and once we have boxed someone
> into a reputation, we can develop a premature cognitive commitment--
> seeing what we are looking for. "Personal derogatory comments" are often
> inferred.
>
> Casually following this thread, I did not see any personal attacks, just
> strongly-worded expressions of strongly-held ideas.
>
> Did I miss something?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please keep the thread DC-DC open and stop all personnal comments, we are
all aware now, we all understand that it's not simple debating without
hurting somewhere around the world someone mind...different
educations...different cultures...lot's of good and bad things different.
Keep in mind expressing by writen words it's not as effective as being
speaking in front of someone, it's worst when english is not native language
:^)
Lets talk about DC-DC again, some sources:
For a 24V pack
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Voltage-Reducers-15-Amp-Input-18v-35V-13VDC-out_W0QQitemZ5818249981QQcategoryZ48696QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
For 60V pack
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-CONVERTER-43-75VDC-TO-15VDC-LOT-2-PCS_W0QQitemZ7553082766QQcategoryZ36323QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I'm still looking for an inexpensive isolated low power (1 to 5W) 24-36-48V
DC-DC converter to use on e-meter and other LCD which need 5 to 12V
separated power.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Realistically if you were going to use a car that had been flooded you would
have to do a chemical dip on it to be certain that you got it all set up
right. That would require you to take everything apart, clean it, and
reassemble. Seems like an awful lot of work unless the car is a really cool
model.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Medeck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 9:17 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Plenty of cheap gliders?
I've been buying and rebuilding insurance salvage cars and trucks for 28
years on and off, so have seen a lot of flood cars. Even if the unreachable
nooks and crannies aren't filled with silt and unmentionables, the car is
going to be a pain in the butt forever. A few guys that I know have tryed
them over the years, here's a partial list of their problems- electrical (of
course) connections corrode over a period of time, relays go bad, switches
have gunk in them, etc. - HVAC ducts hold silt and stuff, so remain smelly
(and probably not safe), vacuum switches and doors develop problems - rack
and pinion problems - brake problems - bearing problems - rust problems. And
these were all fresh water floods. A car that has been submerged in salt
water will look OK for a while, but have you seen that Tribeca commercial?
That's a salt water flood car in a couple of years.
Tim Medeck
>From: billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: Plenty of cheap gliders?
>Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:51:24 -0700
>
>Hi Folks, I just heard from some friends in N.O. after Katrina They were
>lucky their house is intact , one person was in
>the car repair business, unfortunately for him he is now unemployed due to
>the fact most of the vehicles are considered un-repairable and are expected
>to be scrapped. I was wondering how useful the newer ones with straight
>bodies would be as EV gliders ? Of course you would toss all the i.c.e.
>stuff , and the differential and tranny would need some work but may turn
>out to be serviceable. The body, brakes and suspension would certainly be
>useable . Some of the 12 volt system may be beyond hope, silt in the
>switches, motors, instruments and especially where the battery voltage was
>present under water. I am not sure if the upholstery could ever be cleaned
>and deodorized? Still the new models are tempting if they would make good
>cheap conversions, with work. These vehicles could be a LOT newer and
>cheaper than those we usually can afford for conversions.
>Does any one on the list have any experience with the perils of flooded
>cars?
> Bill Brinsmead in still dry Reno Nevada.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marvin Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> NJ may come off as rough cut, but in this instance he was no
> more abrasive than say, jeweler's rouge.
The point is that even 'jeweler's rouge' abrasiveness serves no purpose
in NJ's gratuitous response to Micheala. His reply was not answering
anyone's question, it was defending his opinion of what DC/DC product is
'best', in response to the person who asked for advice stating
essentially, "thanks for all the suggestions, I've decided to spring for
the more expensive automotive-grade DC/DC converter because it meets my
needs best; sorry to see people bickering like children in response to
such a strightforward question".
Being abrasive in his posts does not make his points any more valid, and
depending how thick-skinned the individual reader is, the level of
abrasiveness may be quite a bit higher than NJ or you or I might think.
I feel Ken Trough got it right, and wrote it quite well:
> >> I appreciate the informative content of Neon John's posts,
> >> but I feel that the personal derogatory comments have no
> >> place here and that David is right on when he asks John to
> >> leave that out of his posts.
Meta Bus said:
> > Casually following this thread, I did not see any personal attacks,
> > just strongly-worded expressions of strongly-held ideas.
> >
> > Did I miss something?
Yep. Micheala didn't suggest that there is "one true product"; the
closest to that was the suggestion that "one gets what one pays for",
which although it may not be a universal truth, certainly holds much
truth. Instead of simply pointing out that there are exceptions to this
"rule", NJ *chose* to needlessly characterise the entire view (and then
some) as "sophmoric", and so by implication, Micheala for (purportedly)
holding said view.
Strongly-held ideas are certainly welcome to be expressed in this forum,
provided they are relevant to our discusison of EVs, however, it is not
necessary to express them in such a way that demeans the opinion or
views of another lister.
Ironically, one of Micheala's observations was the juvenile bickering
that resulted from his/her query, and here we are now bickering over
NJ's writing style... I expect that many of us appreciate the
informative content of NJ's posts, however, there are some of us,
probably many, and possibly even the majority, who do not appreciate
that NJ often chooses to bundle that information with a healthy serving
of demeaning remarks towards another lister or towards government
entities, etc. Whether other listers happen to agree with said remarks
is irrelevant. Since the gratuitous remarks do not add to the
informative value of NJs posts, there should be no reason for anyone to
object to requests that he refrain from posting them out of courtesy to
those listers who do find them unnecessary and offensive. If he cannot
communicate without taking jabs at others, then it would probably be
best if he didn't post at all. At the very least this would eliminate
all the bickering about just how abrasive what he wrote this time is.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Wankels are less efficient than reciprocating engines.
Tim
Evan Tuer wrote:
http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
110 lbs
44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
propane, etc. at additional cost."
Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 2005 Mazda RX-8 gets 18/24 MPG.
That is not very good, but not the worst either.
One of the recent posts did mention a super high EGT earlier, so they
probably are quite a bit less efficient in general :(
On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 05:50:17PM -0500, Tim wrote:
> I believe Wankels are less efficient than reciprocating engines.
> Tim
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> >http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
> >
> >Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
> >75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
> >110 lbs
> >44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
> >
> >"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
> >propane, etc. at additional cost."
> >
> >Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
> >
> >
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phillipe,
A quick look doesn't show one with a 5 and 12Vdc
output, but the ASD05-48S12 has 18 to 75Vdc input
with a 12V output at .42 amps for $44 list price.
http://datasheet.astrodyne.com/ASD05.pdf
add a 5 Volt regulator to the 12V output. Maybe they
have anoter series that has both voltages.
Rod
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Please keep the thread DC-DC open and stop all
> personnal comments, we are
> all aware now, we all understand that it's not
> simple debating without
> hurting somewhere around the world someone
> mind...different
> educations...different cultures...lot's of good and
> bad things different.
>
> Keep in mind expressing by writen words it's not as
> effective as being
> speaking in front of someone, it's worst when
> english is not native language
> :^)
>
> Lets talk about DC-DC again, some sources:
>
> For a 24V pack
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-Voltage-Reducers-15-Amp-Input-18v-35V-13VDC-out_W0QQitemZ5818249981QQcategoryZ48696QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> For 60V pack
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-DC-CONVERTER-43-75VDC-TO-15VDC-LOT-2-PCS_W0QQitemZ7553082766QQcategoryZ36323QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> I'm still looking for an inexpensive isolated low
> power (1 to 5W) 24-36-48V
> DC-DC converter to use on e-meter and other LCD
> which need 5 to 12V
> separated power.
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By memory I think Onan made 4kw from 9.5 hp and 6.5kw from 16 hp. Not sure
what you guys think you need 75hp for but I think it's a little bit of over
kill and certainly won't be much in the fuel economy department. I'm
thinking more in the direction of the Kawasaki 4 cylinder 18 hp motor to
belt drive an alternator wired for about 150vdc. Motor runs at its peak,
probably about 4,000rpm. Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
Just my 2 cents.
Mark Grasser
I believe Wankels are less efficient than reciprocating engines.
Tim
Evan Tuer wrote:
http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
110 lbs
44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
propane, etc. at additional cost."
Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By memory I think Onan made 4kw from 9.5 hp and 6.5kw from 16 hp. Not sure
what you guys think you need 75hp for but I think it's a little bit of over
kill and certainly won't be much in the fuel economy department. I'm
thinking more in the direction of the Kawasaki 4 cylinder 18 hp motor to
belt drive an alternator wired for about 150vdc. Motor runs at its peak,
probably about 4,000rpm. Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
Mark Grasser
Subject: Re: rotary engine for generator
By memory I think Onan made 4kw from 9.5 hp and 6.5kw from 16 hp. Not sure
what you guys think you need 75hp for but I think it's a little bit of
over kill and certainly won't be much in the fuel economy department. I'm
thinking more in the direction of the Kawasaki 4 cylinder 18 hp motor to
belt drive an alternator wired for about 150vdc. Motor runs at its peak,
probably about 4,000rpm. Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
Just my 2 cents.
Mark Grasser
I believe Wankels are less efficient than reciprocating engines.
Tim
Evan Tuer wrote:
http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
110 lbs
44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
propane, etc. at additional cost."
Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<..snip..>
> Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
Where can you find high power alternators? An alternator that puts out
35kW would be interesting. Could you just dump DC in series with your pack
that way?
Finding large generator heads that will produce ~40kW at 60HZ is pretty easy,
but I've not seen large DC output alternators. It that becasue they do not
exist? :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the 4-prong plug coming out of the bottom of the contactor?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
a multi rotor fuel injected precision mazda engine is a work of art with 30 yrs
and millions of $ of development and refinement
it's not quite the same thing as a lawn mower technology rotax : )
materials technolgy has just about made wankel engines reliable but with out
fuel injection , lambda sensors and 3D mapped fuel and ignition they are still
pretty poor
most ohc motorcycle 4 valve engines would be a better bet as a generator -
quieter,indestructable,fuel efficient even on carbs and very flexible to give
the right rev range for driving whatever voltage you are looking for in an ev
just my opinion but doesn't this hybrid thing spoil the ev concept ?
i can see how it would be nice to have a little gen set to charge up while you
go shopping or in the pub etc but half the fun of electric stuff is wafting
quietly around - the thought of a bike engine or wankel thrashing around in the
back whilst driving my ev is a bit less than ideal to me
a range extender trailer sounds like the best bet at least then you can un hook
the thing when you get where ever you are going without lugging an engine and
fuel around - ev's are all about saving weight where possible after all
feel free to disagree
reb
Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The 2005 Mazda RX-8 gets 18/24 MPG.
That is not very good, but not the worst either.
One of the recent posts did mention a super high EGT earlier, so they
probably are quite a bit less efficient in general :(
On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 05:50:17PM -0500, Tim wrote:
> I believe Wankels are less efficient than reciprocating engines.
> Tim
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> >http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
> >
> >Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
> >75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
> >110 lbs
> >44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
> >
> >"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
> >propane, etc. at additional cost."
> >
> >Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
> >
> >
> >
> >
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James,
> A page 2 article in our local paper used the headline above
> for an article on a German concept car made by Maybach,
> at the Australian motor show, the Maybach Exelero.
>
> Lots of waffle about built by a team of prototype
> specialists, 0-100km/h in
> 4.4 seconds, 700hp, 351km/h at the Nardo speed bowl..
>
> "Its four wheels are powered by individual electric motors
> which emit only water"
>
> Huh? - well you can't expect any kind of accuracy of
> reporting in anything printed for mass consumption these days
No you can't. It sounded like a cut-and-paste job that went wrong, and sure
enough:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/10/13/1128796634980.html
The top half talks about the Exelero, whilst the second half talks about
Toyota's apparently fuel-cell powered Motor Triathlon Race Car. I'd guess the
local paper pulled the AAP article, and got a little enthusiastic with the
editing.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen 250 amps at 24 volts. About a foot in diameter. Pretty expensive
though. Me, I'll probably rewind 2 or 3 big GM atlternators and run them in
parrallel. A lot easier on my pocket book.
I might run into the 250/24 next week at a trade show. If I do I'll post it.
Mark Grasser
<..snip..>
Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
Where can you find high power alternators? An alternator that puts out
35kW would be interesting. Could you just dump DC in series with your pack
that way?
Finding large generator heads that will produce ~40kW at 60HZ is pretty
easy,
but I've not seen large DC output alternators. It that becasue they do not
exist? :)
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> just my opinion but doesn't this hybrid thing spoil the ev concept ?
i can see how it would be nice to have a little gen set to charge up while
you go shopping or in the pub etc but half the fun of electric stuff is
wafting quietly around - the thought of a bike engine or wankel thrashing
around in the back whilst driving my ev is a bit less than ideal to me
I agree 100%.
a range extender trailer sounds like the best bet at least then you can un
hook the thing when you get where ever you are going without lugging an
engine and fuel around - ev's are all about saving weight where possible
after all
My plan is to have a small narrowed trailer around the corner of the house
for just that long distance need. I just hope I use it enough to keep it
happy. Problem with most equipment is it only breaks when you need it.
"No arguements here." Hey maybe that should be my logo....
Mark Grasser
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On Fri, Oct 14, 2005 at 01:13:29AM +0100, reb wrote:
> a multi rotor fuel injected precision mazda engine is a work of art with
> 30 yrs and millions of $ of development and refinement
> it's not quite the same thing as a lawn mower technology rotax : )
Haha, Ok, I'll give you that.
Do we know where the RotaMax engine falls on this scale? I guess closer to the
lawn mower? :)
> materials technolgy has just about made wankel engines reliable but with
> out fuel injection , lambda sensors and 3D mapped fuel and ignition they
> are still pretty poor
> most ohc motorcycle 4 valve engines would be a better bet as a generator
> - quieter,indestructable,fuel efficient even on carbs and very flexible to
Is it true that they are indestructible? I though that they required more
maintenance then most ICEs?
The only data point I have is a few motorcycle riding buddies, and it
seems like the only two things they are ever doing is riding or rebuilding
there bikes. In this case, the ratio of ride to rebuild seems painfully
close to 50:50 :-/
Perhaps you just need to pick the correct engine to start with?
>
> just my opinion but doesn't this hybrid thing spoil the ev concept ?
It enables you to sell your only remaining gas only car in my case :)
> i can see how it would be nice to have a little gen set to charge up
> while you go shopping or in the pub etc but half the fun of electric stuff
> is wafting quietly around -
Wafting quietly around is very cool, unfortunately, my EV is already quite a
bit louder then my Prius was :-/
I think that if you were towing the engine and fuel, you would be doing
well.
> the thought of a bike engine or wankel
> thrashing around in the back whilst driving my ev is a bit less than ideal
It is a fewer compromises solution. Until I can afford a $50K battery pack,
I'll need to settle for a ~$2K range extending trailer. :(
> to me a range extender trailer sounds like the best bet at least then
> you can un hook the thing when you get where ever you are going without
> lugging an engine and fuel around - ev's are all about saving weight where
> possible after all
<..snip..>
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Roger Stockton wrote:
<snip>
NJ often chooses to bundle that information with a healthy serving
of demeaning remarks towards another lister...<snip>
This is the inference that confused me. I did not read that, anywhere. I
saw, clearly, attacks on ideas, but I do not make a leap to the
implication that you and others have chosen.
This forum is rife with ideas, good and bad, wizened and immature. I am
an idea man, myself. I have so many ideas, I am certain that some of
them must be bad. Sophomoric, even.
Recently, I came upon the idea of making an electric-RV, and the further
idea of relying on solar power to provide for both my comfort as well as
my drive energy, as I intend to putter around the country coding software.
"That's a stupid idea," someone from the peanut gallery might shout.
I am not offended. I _take_ no offense. The shout is not about _me_. The
speaker is referring to my idea. If the inference is that I am stupid
because I had a stupid idea, there is something wrong with the inference
engine. One does not necessarily follow the other. I can infer that is
what the peanut gallery implied, but that is on me. A choice I make.
I would not make that choice, take that offense, because I know better.
It is the idea being challenged, not me.
Decent ideas are often in conflict. It is a paradox of truth. Absolutes
are hard to defend. Ideas are cheap. Like opinions, they are always open
to challenge, reinterpretation, and yes, even a little dust-devil of
something that looks like bickering.
"Penny wise and pound foolish"/"You get what you pay for" is a valid
idea, yet so is "All that glitters is not gold" and "Caveat Emptor".
Present one, and you can expect someone to present the other.
I loved the Dilbert reference, but there is a flaw in presentation-- it
does not really apply here. Getting rid of the a**h*** manager is a good
idea because an a**h*** with power over you can indeed make you unhappy.
But someone with no real power over you cannot _make_ you unhappy.
Posts from un-favorite writers can be skipped. But now I get the idea
that certain posts are gobbled up with a kind of negative anticipation.
The words are scanned, and some appear to be looking for offense to take.
I am inferring this, of course, from scant observation.
But, observing myself only, I must report that I was shocked by Dave
Roden's invitation for Neon John to leave the list. It caught me off
guard and _appeared_ to be out of left field. I seem to recall reading
one other such invitation since joining the list, and that one shocked
me too. Apparently there is a history here, but... those invitations are
the only application of real power that I've witnessed.
There is always signal and noise. I don't mean to add unpleasant
harmonics to the fuzzy-looking sine wave that is the current EVL,
(a metaphor that I like much better than "bickering children" which I
feel is disrespectful to everyone who participates in the discussion)
but I have a fresh perspective, being a noob, and so I think my filter
is working better than most. Sure, there is noise added to the signal,
but are you looking to filter it out, or are you amplifying it?
A final good idea, presented for your edification:
"Don't take it personal".
Regards,
Jim Davis
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Ah, but does it run on biodiesel or cellulosic alcohol?
According to Mark Grasser,
> By memory I think Onan made 4kw from 9.5 hp and 6.5kw from 16 hp. Not sure
> what you guys think you need 75hp for but I think it's a little bit of over
> kill and certainly won't be much in the fuel economy department. I'm
> thinking more in the direction of the Kawasaki 4 cylinder 18 hp motor to
> belt drive an alternator wired for about 150vdc. Motor runs at its peak,
> probably about 4,000rpm. Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
>
>
> Mark Grasser
> Subject: Re: rotary engine for generator
>
>
> >By memory I think Onan made 4kw from 9.5 hp and 6.5kw from 16 hp. Not sure
> >what you guys think you need 75hp for but I think it's a little bit of
> >over kill and certainly won't be much in the fuel economy department. I'm
> >thinking more in the direction of the Kawasaki 4 cylinder 18 hp motor to
> >belt drive an alternator wired for about 150vdc. Motor runs at its peak,
> >probably about 4,000rpm. Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
> >
> >Just my 2 cents.
> >
> >
> >Mark Grasser
> >
> >
> >>I believe Wankels are less efficient than reciprocating engines.
> >>Tim
> >>
> >>Evan Tuer wrote:
> >>
> >>>http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
> >>>
> >>>Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
> >>>75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
> >>>110 lbs
> >>>44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
> >>>
> >>>"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
> >>>propane, etc. at additional cost."
> >>>
> >>>Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
--
Best Regards,
Tony
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The problem is that "lean burn" engines actually run much hotter. The
additional oxygen makes the burn progress to a stage where the generated
heat is problematic. There are some gains in power with the higher
temps but it tends to break engines. Actually running such high EGTs
successfully can be a good sign of a lean burn OR it can mean there are
too many uncombusted products coming out of it and they're burning in
the exhaust.
The Mazda RX-7 13B engine didn't have great efficiency to begin with but
was also bad on emissions. The solution Mazda used was strangely to
make the mixture even richer- this allowed the exhaust thermactor
chamber make a clean combustion out of the unburned products. Doesn't
make sense but that's the story. Running so rich made the mileage worse
still.
The specs for specific fuel consumption on the Moller/Freedom
Motors/RotaPower/RotaMax engine were supposed to be excellent. I'm not
sure how accurate their figures on fuel consumption and emissions will
turn out in the real world. The engine already turned out to have only
half of the power output spec they promised, they said that what they
got was a lab-tuned engine experiment and it had to be derated to get
long term reliability. Basically a way of admitting their figure wasn't
realistic. Such is expected in a highly experimental bleeding edge of
technology so I wouldn't hold it against them.
Danny
Nick Austin wrote:
The 2005 Mazda RX-8 gets 18/24 MPG.
That is not very good, but not the worst either.
One of the recent posts did mention a super high EGT earlier, so they
probably are quite a bit less efficient in general :(
On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 05:50:17PM -0500, Tim wrote:
I believe Wankels are less efficient than reciprocating engines.
Tim
Evan Tuer wrote:
http://www.rotamax.net/650.html
Says they are now taking orders for this 650cc wankel engine.
75 HP @ 6,700 RPM
110 lbs
44.5cm L x 42cm W x 44.5cm H
"Configurable for other light fuels such as natural gas, alcohol,
propane, etc. at additional cost."
Might make a good APU for a big EV-pickup or something.
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I have one 7 inches diameter by about 6 inches long, fits over the shaft of
a Honda GX-670 V-Twin, so it takes up almost no space beyond the engine
shaft length. It puts out about 130A at 100V at 3600 rpm. It is an eCycle
MG3-36.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: rotary engine for generator
I've seen 250 amps at 24 volts. About a foot in diameter. Pretty expensive
though. Me, I'll probably rewind 2 or 3 big GM atlternators and run them
in parrallel. A lot easier on my pocket book.
I might run into the 250/24 next week at a trade show. If I do I'll post
it.
Mark Grasser
<..snip..>
Up the speed of the alternator to about 6,000rpm.
Where can you find high power alternators? An alternator that puts out
35kW would be interesting. Could you just dump DC in series with your
pack
that way?
Finding large generator heads that will produce ~40kW at 60HZ is pretty
easy,
but I've not seen large DC output alternators. It that becasue they do
not
exist? :)
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All the vehicles I've owned that I've had to set the toe on had specs
between 3/4" and 1". None of those were/are small cars. Toe
specified in terms of distance depends on the tire diameter. For a
given angle, the distance will be smaller for smaller diameter tires.
Mine was a SWAG based only on knowing that he'd installed 14" tires.
It's fairly evident if it's too much - ponderous steering and quick
tire edge wear.
John
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:40:19 -0700, Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I'll echo that!
>One _inch_ seems like far too much. Are you sure you didn't mean to say
>one _degree_?
>I seem to recall that the last time I set toe on my car, I gave it
>something like 1/8" of toe.
>cheers,
>Andrew
>
>David Roden wrote:
>
>>On 12 Oct 2005 at 2:39, Neon John wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'd try one inch of toe to start out.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>That sounds like a lot. Most EVs are set for zero toe, or close to it, to
>>reduce rolling resistance.
>>
>>
>>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>EV List Assistant Administrator
>>
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>>or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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>>Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
>>send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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> just my opinion but doesn't this hybrid thing spoil the ev concept ?
> i can see how it would be nice to have a little gen set to charge up while
> you go shopping or in the pub etc but half the fun of electric stuff is
> wafting quietly around - the thought of a bike engine or wankel thrashing
> around in the back whilst driving my ev is a bit less than ideal to me
Yeah, running an ICE to generate electricity to feed your pack is not the best
choice, but at least it's "doable" - if you're going freeway speeds, using the
ICE to supply power directly to the wheels would make for better mileage, but
then why not have a Prius with added battery capacity and a charger.
P.S.- How about a pure-electric bumper sticker:
"This vehicle is 100% gas-free,
the driver is another matter"
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