EV Digest 4828
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Liquid cooling and Zillas
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Liquid cooling package now available
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Twist-lock connectors
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: (Another) Zilla question
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Battery Beach Burnout
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Exide Floodeds vs AGM
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Conversion Market Value Proof Needed
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 1/8-Inch End Plates
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Beach Burnout
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Twist-lock connectors
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Liquid cooling for Zilla
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Pump for Zilla cooling
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: (Another) Zilla question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Conversion Market Value Proof Needed
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again EVeryone,
A few more comments on the liquid cooling topic:
Is it true that the Zilla's have over temp detection? If they do, perhaps
you could hook that up to an idiot light. This would seem to be the ideal
place to monitor the effectiveness of your cooling right?
Yes, the Zilla has a battery indicator light and a check engine light.
The check engine light will begin blinking as the Zilla cuts back. As
per the Zilla manual, " The controller will maintain full output motor
current up to 55 degrees C heatsink temperature. Above that, current
drops back to 75% at 80 degrees C and then rapidly declines to nothing
at 100 degrees C".
Are the fittings your standard nylon 1/4" MNPT --> 3/8" barbed
fittings? Or are they something special to make them "intentionally
fragile"?
Otmar would be the authority on this, but as far as I can tell, they are
just standard 3/8" barbed fittings. They really aren't *that* fragile.
I did some good yanking on them without breakage (although I would
suggest treating them gently to avoid having to repair them).
The Bosch pump draws under an amp. Beautiful.
I don't remember who mentioned it, but someone had concerns about the
reservoir I'm using (something about bubbles). Yes, I have been getting
bubbles in the system. I spent the evening figuring out what was
causing it. I think I've nailed it down, and it shouldn't be an issue
if the reservoir is installed in a certain configuration. At first, I
was skeptical of the horizontal mounting reservoir. But I think others
will find it convenient to install (of course there will be exceptions,
in which case it can be installed vertically).
Once again, thanks to all for the great comments.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just did this exact modification to my bandsaw. Steve Ciciora
gave me the VFD. I bought all the remaining odds and ends for about $60.
Works fantastically.
Steve bought the inverter on Ebay. Here is one listed for $0.99
($13 S&H)
http://cgi.ebay.com/MITSUBISHI-INVERTER-MOTOR-CONTROL-FR-AO24-0-75K-TF_W0QQitemZ7553754844QQcategoryZ78192QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This unit will run great on 240 volts single phase.
You need to borrow a "parameter unit" to program the above VFD. I
paid $35 for one, but you could shop around and get one much cheaper.
You need about 1/2 to 1 HP.
I bought a 1 HP 3 ph motor on Ebay for $16. The pulley cost me a
few more bucks.
I can slow the blade down to about 7 FPM. I programmed the VFD to
switch select 40 FPM and 200 FPM so I could flip a SPDT switch to get the
right speeds for steel and aluminum. With no fixed speed selected (switch
center), I control the speed from ~7 FPM to ~2000 FPM with a 1k pot. Ultra
slick.
At 09:47 PM 10/17/2005, you wrote:
Hi all,
This is a little off topic, but it does deal with motors and since there
are some pretty knowledgeable motor people here...
I have a Jet 14" band saw with a 1 HP motor. It is for wood and I have a
pulley attachment that lowers the speed down to about 1000 rpm, but it is
still too fast for cutting metal (I've already ruined 2 metal blades). I
want to get a Variable Frequency Drive. I understand that I can get one
for about $150 and that I'll also need a 3 phase motor. I have 1 phase,
120/240 VAC to my shop. What are some good VFD's?
Thanks in advance.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:18 AM 10/16/2005, you wrote:
David Dymaxion said:
> Why aren't more people doing a heat pipe like Bill Dube on his
> Wabbit?
>
> Cheap, quiet, no amp draw, reliable, simple...
>
Requires pressure capacity of over 200psi from homemade plumbing
About 120 psi maximum, actually. Normally, the pressure is
something like 20 PSI.
(I have
trouble with leaks in my 125psi air system at home),
If you use metal tubing, leaks are not really much of an issue.
(The plastic hose I used would allow the butane to diffuse out in about 6
months, unfortunately.)
contains a flammable
gas (butane in Bill's case)
Not much of it.
Small hazard actually. People make a big deal about a few psi of
butane, but aren't bothered a bit by 60 psi gasoline inches away from the
hot exhaust manifold in an ICE.
and the equipment necessary to
evacuate/charge/measure it,
If you are willing to vent a small amount of the butane, this
isn't an issue. You just need a side-piercing style freon can tapper. About
$20. You fill just a bit and then vent. Do this three times and you are all
set. If you install a sight glass in the system, fill until liquid is just
above the controller. (That is where you place the sight glass.)
requires the radiator to be above the
controller,
This is true, but not difficult. I mounted an small oil cooler in
the cowl space just below the windshield.
and the controller tilted to allow bubbles to natually escape
from its water block (which may be impossible depending on whether the
Zilla's water channel is more complex than a simple U-shape),
You do have to tilt it, but that is not difficult for most
installations. Ask Otmar about the channel shape.
not reliable
if the butane bleeds through your plumbing material ...
That was a problem with my plastic hose. If you use metal tubing,
it will not be an issue. Look at the sight glass occasionally.
While I won't argue that this isn't a good idea in theory, the details
make it seem a lot more complex than just using water and a pump.
The reliability of the pump and it's power supply can be a more
serious reliability issue. If you follow Otmar's instructions exactly, the
pump can work out well. There are a lot of cheesy pumps out there,
unfortunately.
I should note that butane is not the only choice. It is just the
easiest choice. It is low pressure, but above atmospheric pressure. It is a
fantastic refrigerant. It is cheap. It doesn't freeze.
You can use water or alcohol or a mixture if you like. For those
working fluids, you do have to have a vacuum pump and a complicated filling
system, however.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I have been doing a refit of a piece of mine plant that was built by some
people in Utah who failed to give their electricians the Australian
Standards that were sent to them. As a consequence the entire electrical
systems with the exceptions of the motors and generator are being replaced.
I have ended up with (otherwise going in the rubbish, as illegal here) are
a collection of twist-lock connectors. All of them are in-line pairs of
plug and socket, 4 pairs of LEVITON (brand) 3-phase (4-pin) 20 amp 480V,
NEMA L16-20 (written on the sockets, haven't got the plugs yet), and one
pair of L5-15, 15A 125V single phase (3-pin).
What are these connectors worth?
I intend to offer swap/trade for bits for my EV, but there is no point in
offering swap if they are not worth the postage for the swap (being in
Australia, postage will be significant enough to be considered).
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:07 AM 18/10/05 -0400, Jody wrote:
You can try a router speed control. I used it on my drill press to lower
the speed below the 600 rpm speed it had. It works to about 50% then it
Surprising that that worked - most router-type speed controls are
phase-angle control (brush motors), and not suitable for motors that need
to run syncronous to the mains frequency.
We were able to adjust the speed on a single-phase synchronous motor (a
small one) for a customer by running it off a modified 12V inverter that we
'hacked' the speed reference to an external potentiometer - but only 40Hz
to 65Hz (50Hz base frequency inverter and motor).
Otherwise a single-phase in / 3-phase out variable-frequency drive, but use
a non-chicom brand.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Zilla manual states:
"The heatsink has two 3/8" OD barbed fittings on the signal end of
the controller. Water flow direction does not matter. These fittings
are intentionally fragile, and also easily replaceable. They are
plastic in order to protect the copper heatsink from damage in case
of abuse. In case they need replacing, be sure to seal the threads
with Teflon tape and to pressure test the connections for leaks."
Am I wrong in assuming that the threaded ports are 1/4" NPT
(tapered) fittings?
Are the fittings your standard nylon 1/4" MNPT --> 3/8" barbed
fittings? Or are they something special to make them "intentionally
fragile"?
Sorry, I've been a bit too busy to join in most of the discussions.
But this one is simple for me to answer.
The threads in the copper heatsink are 1/8" NPT, the 90 degree 3/8"
barbs are made of nylon to take the load if abused. This protects the
very expensive heatsink.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Well the 2006 NEDRA Season Opener now has a name and soon to have a website!
The race is "Battery Beach Burnout". The race will be January 21st, 2006 in
West Palm Beach, FL at Moroso Motorsports Park. The new website will be:
www.batterybeach.com
Gates open at 4:30PM and the Racing will start at 5:00.
We are looking for racers and volunteers. We need lots of both!!! This is
going to be a great night of EV racing and the first time EVER in FL!
Anyone interested in volunteering, racing or sponsoring, please email me at:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'll keep everyone posted with updates.
Thanks!!!
Shawn M. Waggoner
NEDRA Southeast Coordinator
Florida EAA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It worked only to about 50 percent and then the motor just doesnt slow down
any more. I only use that option when I am drilling very large pieces so I
don't destroy my drill bits.
-----Original Message-----
From: James Massey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:34 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
At 01:07 AM 18/10/05 -0400, Jody wrote:
>You can try a router speed control. I used it on my drill press to lower
>the speed below the 600 rpm speed it had. It works to about 50% then it
Surprising that that worked - most router-type speed controls are
phase-angle control (brush motors), and not suitable for motors that need
to run syncronous to the mains frequency.
We were able to adjust the speed on a single-phase synchronous motor (a
small one) for a customer by running it off a modified 12V inverter that we
'hacked' the speed reference to an external potentiometer - but only 40Hz
to 65Hz (50Hz base frequency inverter and motor).
Otherwise a single-phase in / 3-phase out variable-frequency drive, but use
a non-chicom brand.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am also leaning to the AGM Exide XCD's.
20 ~ 820#'s of lead should give the daily 16 mile trip that my wife makes
with only 50% DOD.
I should be able to make an occasional weekend trip of 28 miles.
Hopefully this set up will give me a reasonable battery life.
The only thing that I'm concerned with is the 240 volts.
Is this too much for a newbie?, or should I consider(2) 120 volt parallel
packs, and then jump to the 240 volt pack in the future.
Can anyone shed any light on my throwaway costs if I decide to do this.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: jerry halstead [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:12 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Exide Floodeds vs AGM
Hi Mark,
Thought I'd come out of lurk mode and chip in with "me too!"
Our first EV ran trojan SCS225's and while they worked fine overall they
were messy, smelly, and required care. I'm leaning towards AGM for the new
conversion (Optima D31T) but am still firmly planted in "waffling mode".
In our case we don't need oodles of range. Using Uve's calculator, it seems
like the D31T would fill the bill.
Rhino coating...interesting idea!
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
On Oct 17, 2005, at 10:08 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know I have beat this horse to death already, but I need some more
> opinions here.
>
> I haven't committed totally to my choice of a battery pack. I have
> made sure my battery box is capable of supporting and maintainence of
> either AGM's or flooded, whichever I end up going with. Box is now
> finished except the Rhino coat on the inside and I am good to go on
> that.
>
> I have heard a lot of pros and cons, the AGM's of course being a lot
> better on weight, delivered current, required maintenance, etc,
> downside pickiness on charging, extra cost intitially and pricey
> chargers, regulators, etc.
>
> I have been looking at some Exide Stowaway batteries which would fit
> my system, are priced well and readily available. Some are
> rated at 80ah. Their big brothers are 105 and 200ah respectively.
> Of course the real big ones are huge as well. Of course I know these
> AH ratings have a lot of variables in how they are described.
>
> So my question is....compared to AGM's which rate about 50ah, in the
> same vehicle, won't any of the floodeds deliver better range at a
> sacrifice of performance?
>
> A lot of arguments are made both ways here about the low cost per mile
> on floodies, the performance of AGM's, etc. In my case I already have
> some losses due to my automatic transmission and won't
> want to end up with a car that only goes 10 miles on a charge.
> This won't do at all with the cost of the conversion. The cost per
> mile using AGM's seems a lot higher if part of your objective is
> beating the cost of gasoline. I need 20-25 miles minimum.
>
> The other factor is I can go with a Zivan charger, which was my
> initial choice and no big hassles other than the periodic maintenance
> required.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My wife crashed our EV conversion about a month ago.
The other driver admitted to be at fault. But, the
insurance company only estmated the market value to be
at $2800 for an original ICE version. They based it
on actual selling price in the area. We are trying to
repair it instead of total it.
So, I am trying to find actualy selling prices of
comparable EV conversion in the San Francisco Bay Area
(or even in California). My car is in the EV Album
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/090.html
I have since upgraded to a PFC-50 charger. If you
have recently purchased a used EV conversion, can you
send me something to proof the actual selling price?
Thank you.
Ed Ang
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The aluminum I have is 5052 H32. 5052 says, "This is the highest strength
alloy of the more common non heat-treatable grades". H32 is 1/4 hard
aluminum. To someone without much experience in metals, all these grades
are kind of hard to understand. How would 5052 H32 aluminum do as end
plates? Again, it's 1/8 inch, so I could double or triple them if
necessary.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:57 PM
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'
Subject: RE: 1/8-Inch End Plates
It really depends on the Aluminum. If you get say 3/8 thick 7075 aluminum
you would have no trouble with it. You might have to go a little thicker on
say 6061 aluminum to get the same strength.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 5:32 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: 1/8-Inch End Plates
>I've got some 1/8-inch aluminum. Would that be thick enough to be the
>end plates that hold 5 TS cells to keep them from expanding?
>>Seems a bit thin. The ones I have are more like 1/4" thick, with 4
>>straps around the batteries to the end plates.
I've got lots of the aluminum; would doubling them up to get 1/4 inch work?
Instead of staps, I'll be connecting the plates with 1/4-inch All Thread.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Talking about generators: I am thinking about building a genset to deliver
about 10 to 15 KW. My question: Whould it make more sense to use a
commutator-type DC generator or would it make more sense to have a
rectifier bridge behind an AC generator?
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was going to suggest: "A Salt and Battery Bash", but I like this one
better.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I live in the heavens. I reside on mountain tops. I am at constant vigil
over thee. I monitor thy righteous ways. Thy levels art mine to command.
When thou art in trouble, I will help thee through distorted times. When
thou art low, the touch of my hand shall raise thy spirit to the proper
level. When thou are too high, I shall terminate thee with a swift stroke of
my sword. When thy wires are frayed and broken, my angels shall use solder
and iron to heal thee. Thou art the circuit, I am the chosen one, I am the
TECH CONTROLLER!"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:09 PM
Subject: Battery Beach Burnout
Hi Everyone,
Well the 2006 NEDRA Season Opener now has a name and soon to have a
website!
The race is "Battery Beach Burnout". The race will be January 21st, 2006
in
West Palm Beach, FL at Moroso Motorsports Park. The new website will be:
www.batterybeach.com
Gates open at 4:30PM and the Racing will start at 5:00.
We are looking for racers and volunteers. We need lots of both!!! This is
going to be a great night of EV racing and the first time EVER in FL!
Anyone interested in volunteering, racing or sponsoring, please email me
at:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'll keep everyone posted with updates.
Thanks!!!
Shawn M. Waggoner
NEDRA Southeast Coordinator
Florida EAA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:26:17 +1100, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi all
>
>I have been doing a refit of a piece of mine plant that was built by some
>people in Utah who failed to give their electricians the Australian
>Standards that were sent to them. As a consequence the entire electrical
>systems with the exceptions of the motors and generator are being replaced.
>
>I have ended up with (otherwise going in the rubbish, as illegal here) are
>a collection of twist-lock connectors. All of them are in-line pairs of
>plug and socket, 4 pairs of LEVITON (brand) 3-phase (4-pin) 20 amp 480V,
>NEMA L16-20 (written on the sockets, haven't got the plugs yet), and one
>pair of L5-15, 15A 125V single phase (3-pin).
The three phase sockets are about $25 new and the plugs about $18. The
single phase are a little less.
Now I'm intrigued. What is illegal about twist-lock connectors down
there?
John
>
>What are these connectors worth?
>
>I intend to offer swap/trade for bits for my EV, but there is no point in
>offering swap if they are not worth the postage for the swap (being in
>Australia, postage will be significant enough to be considered).
>
>Thanks
>
>James
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:33:34 +1100, James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>At 01:07 AM 18/10/05 -0400, Jody wrote:
>>You can try a router speed control. I used it on my drill press to lower
>>the speed below the 600 rpm speed it had. It works to about 50% then it
>
>Surprising that that worked - most router-type speed controls are
>phase-angle control (brush motors), and not suitable for motors that need
>to run syncronous to the mains frequency.
That works just fine. The motor simply slips more on lower voltage.
The speed regulation is poor but good enough for many applications.
This is one of those situations where you try it, discover it works
and then figure out why :-)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/18/05, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Talking about generators: I am thinking about building a genset to deliver
> about 10 to 15 KW. My question: Whould it make more sense to use a
> commutator-type DC generator or would it make more sense to have a
> rectifier bridge behind an AC generator?
All other considerations aside, a DC generator (especially a permanent
magnet one), should in theory be more efficient than an alternator and
a simple bridge rectifier.
But, there are other issues: of cost, weight and availability.
So if you have to use AC, you can either live with the rectification
"power factor" problem or avoid it by using a synchronous rectifier,
or a greater number of phases in the generator, or some other
technique.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill wrote:
> You need to borrow a "parameter unit" to program the above VFD. I
> paid $35 for one, but you could shop around and get one much cheaper.
>
Bill, where did you get your "parameter unit"?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kludge:
The radiator is in fact needed for heavy use.
Gone Postal... has 2 Z2Ks, and about 1/2 liter of Anit-freeze coolant.. It
gets quite warm in normal street driving because of the heavy vehicle and
the normal heavy footed operation. But it gets warm like 120 to 130, and the
10 by 6 tranny cooler with a small 12 volt fan 90mm I think is more than
adequate for even both Zillas in operation. So you need some... but not a
really heavy stress.
Now we are also talking about running a 40 amp(10Kw) charger on the same
circuit. This load will impart about a 300 to 400 watt continuous load on
the cooling system. This your need some cooling for.
The Zillas just don't make much heat for long, While the chargers make a
little for long chunks of time.
On a hot summer day with back to back hard runs, Yes we all will need a
pretty good little cooling system. It's not the cold day short runs that get
you it's the long hard runs in hot weather that make a thermal design a
robust engineering effort.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "kluge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 3:04 PM
Subject: Liquid cooling for Zilla
> Madman says: Radiator preformance curves... I am hoping to have that
question answered also, but... it's going to be a LOT more than anybody
really needs, since alot of the really heavey
> hitter EV with Zilla2Ks, don't even have radiators, just a liter or so of
water and a pump. Most of the cooling is from the bulk Spec heat of the
water and plumbing. And rarley do they over
> heat. With 2 liters a minute of water flow and 50 CFM of fan, and a Delta
T of 30 Deg F.... most folks would call this over kill. Even Otmar.
>
> This is what I've been thinking about since this topic came up. I'm
really not convinced that a Zilla is going to generate enought heat to make
the somewhat elaborate cooling systems being
> discussed necessary. Wouldn't a submersible pump in a metal tank of 1 to
2 liter capacity, circulating the coolant between the Zilla and the tank, do
the job just fine? Isn't even a small
> radiator overkill (as well as another opportunity for mechanical failure?)
Particularly when you consider the limited cycle time inherent in an
electric vehicle - I mean, the Zilla isn't going to be
> pumping out big amps for hours on end, is it? I can see that liquid
cooling is better than air cooling - largely due to the huge increase in
thermal mass, and good heat transfer. But I'd be
> curious to see a temperature reading on the coolant used in a Zilla
without a radiator after a hard run.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush,
If you have the Jet with the reduction pulley system, you can buy another
reduction pulley and a new belt, mount the reductions pulley on the motor in
place of the fixed diameter pulley and that will give you an additional 3
speed ranges. The original speed ranges from 2350 - 1470 - 735 sfpm. With
the same reduction pulley mounted on the motor you should be able to take it
down to 456 and then down to 228 sfpm. That should be all you need for
metal work on EV's. Any slower than that and you would really need an
additional gear reduction system or, of course the VFD.
Jeff Wilson
-----Original Message-----
From: Rush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 10:48 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
Hi all,
This is a little off topic, but it does deal with motors and since there are
some pretty knowledgeable motor people here...
I have a Jet 14" band saw with a 1 HP motor. It is for wood and I have a
pulley attachment that lowers the speed down to about 1000 rpm, but it is
still too fast for cutting metal (I've already ruined 2 metal blades). I
want to get a Variable Frequency Drive. I understand that I can get one for
about $150 and that I'll also need a 3 phase motor. I have 1 phase, 120/240
VAC to my shop. What are some good VFD's?
Thanks in advance.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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Keep in mind both the Zilla and the PFC40L will tell you if they get hot and
loose cooling, and both will protect themselves.
So... a Hot yellow led flashing on the PFC40L might say... you should have
added some water this morning..
So This is not like loosing cooling in a ICE engine, where drastic
mecahincal damage is imminent if you loose cooling flow. Our stuff just
pulls back the full handle and waits for cooler things to happen.
A good questions is can I drive the pump and fan from the PWM fan control
inside the charger... and not brown out the logic running the charger. That
we shall see about.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: Pump for Zilla cooling
> Nick Austin wrote:
>
> >On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:39:02PM -0700, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> ><..snip..>
> >
> >
> >>My "research" mostly involved reading about what the overclockers
> >>(people who max out their computer performance) are using for their
> >>water cooled computers. Many of these guys leave their computer on
> >>24/7, so pump reliability is something they're really sensitive to,
> >>since a blown pump means a blown CPU.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I just want to mention that this is not always the case. Almost any
system made
> >in the last 3 or 4 years will either throttle down to protect themselves
(P4),
> >or shutdown entirely (Athlon with COPS). So not every overclocker will
pick
> >reliability over, say having a pretty LED on the pump :)
> >
> >That's not to say that the pump you found may not the best for this job,
just
> >a thought about the premise.
> >
> ><..snip..>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Point taken. There certainly is a lot of "pretty blinking lights"
> type of thinking in the O/C crowd. The pump in question is often listed
> as 50,000 hour MTBF The actual amount (from Laing) is 10,000 hours
> MTBF: http://www.lainginc.com/D_Series.htm The "Delphi" style pump by
> Laing _is_ rated 50,000 MTBF: http://www.lainginc.com/DDC_Series.htm
> Unfortunately, the Delphi pump is unable to provide 2 GPM.
>
> Assuming you'll get 10,000 hours out of it, and assuming it runs 3 hours
> a day (generous, if it's only for the Zilla), then this pump will last
> you a little over 9 years.
>
> I think in any water cooling setup, you should at least have a flow
> sensor switch hooked up to an "idiot light" on your dash. This is
> probably more important than coolant temp, because the coolant temp will
> be just fine in the event of no flow (assuming you're measuring temp at
> the tank), or (for that matter) no coolant at all.
>
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Nope normal plasistic fittings...
Whimpy things....
You will find BRASS fittings on anything that says Manzanita Micro on it.
Intentionally robust and hard to break.
But my heatsinks are about 1/10 the cost of the Zillas, and are made of 6061
3/4 aluminum. So... you will break what ever gets slammed into the
heatsink...before my stuff will.
Ot's logic is sound.... I just don't see it that way...Plus I have a LOT
more material around my plumbing fittings.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 5:37 PM
Subject: (Another) Zilla question
> The Zilla manual states:
>
> "The heatsink has two 3/8" OD barbed fittings on the signal end of the
> controller. Water flow direction does not matter. These fittings are
> intentionally fragile, and also easily replaceable. They are plastic in
> order to protect the copper heatsink from damage in case of abuse. In
> case they need replacing, be sure to seal the threads with Teflon tape
> and to pressure test the connections for leaks."
>
> Am I wrong in assuming that the threaded ports are 1/4" NPT (tapered)
> fittings?
>
> Are the fittings your standard nylon 1/4" MNPT --> 3/8" barbed
> fittings? Or are they something special to make them "intentionally
> fragile"?
>
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Cool I am going to use one of these to drive the extractor cooling fan on
the 75Kw charger..
A small VFD and a LARGE bladed fan....1000s of CFM with little noise...
Well that's the goal anyways..
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: OT - Variable Freq Drive needed
> I just did this exact modification to my bandsaw. Steve Ciciora
> gave me the VFD. I bought all the remaining odds and ends for about $60.
> Works fantastically.
>
> Steve bought the inverter on Ebay. Here is one listed for $0.99
> ($13 S&H)
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/MITSUBISHI-INVERTER-MOTOR-CONTROL-FR-AO24-0-75K-TF_W0QQitemZ7553754844QQcategoryZ78192QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> This unit will run great on 240 volts single phase.
>
> You need to borrow a "parameter unit" to program the above VFD. I
> paid $35 for one, but you could shop around and get one much cheaper.
>
> You need about 1/2 to 1 HP.
>
> I bought a 1 HP 3 ph motor on Ebay for $16. The pulley cost me a
> few more bucks.
>
> I can slow the blade down to about 7 FPM. I programmed the VFD to
> switch select 40 FPM and 200 FPM so I could flip a SPDT switch to get the
> right speeds for steel and aluminum. With no fixed speed selected (switch
> center), I control the speed from ~7 FPM to ~2000 FPM with a 1k pot. Ultra
> slick.
>
>
> At 09:47 PM 10/17/2005, you wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >This is a little off topic, but it does deal with motors and since there
> >are some pretty knowledgeable motor people here...
> >
> >I have a Jet 14" band saw with a 1 HP motor. It is for wood and I have a
> >pulley attachment that lowers the speed down to about 1000 rpm, but it is
> >still too fast for cutting metal (I've already ruined 2 metal blades). I
> >want to get a Variable Frequency Drive. I understand that I can get one
> >for about $150 and that I'll also need a 3 phase motor. I have 1 phase,
> >120/240 VAC to my shop. What are some good VFD's?
> >
> >Thanks in advance.
> >Rush
> >Tucson AZ
> >www.ironandwood.org
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
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Ask your self where you are going to get a 15 kw 144 volt Gen set first.
AC or DC this is not a small chunk of gear.
Getting the generator, then helps you decide what you need.
Most of us find a aircraft alternator... 25Kw 208 three phase, and then
rectify the output. These are in the $200 dollar range and take quite a bit
of know how to get to operate correctly.
Since you are so commited to isolated chargers... My assumptionis you will
need to buy a Quality 60 Hz generator and a suitable 240 volt 50 to 75 amp
isolated charger.
Have fun you are in the $10K range for that level of equipment. $5K for the
charger and $3500 for the Honda generator.
In fact I don't even know who would be making the 15Kw isolated charger...
for less than about $10K.
The rectifier and the AC source is by far the cheapest and most logical
solution.
What we all use is a 12 Kw 240 VAC 50 amp generator and a $3000 PFC50B....
But of course that charger is non isolated.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
>
> Talking about generators: I am thinking about building a genset to deliver
> about 10 to 15 KW. My question: Whould it make more sense to use a
> commutator-type DC generator or would it make more sense to have a
> rectifier bridge behind an AC generator?
>
> Michaela
>
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At 09:53 AM 10/18/2005, Rich Rudman wrote:
What we all use is a 12 Kw 240 VAC 50 amp generator and a $3000 PFC50B....
But of course that charger is non isolated.
It is isolated if you insulate the generator from connection to Ground....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT), Edward Ang
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>My wife crashed our EV conversion about a month ago.
>The other driver admitted to be at fault. But, the
>insurance company only estmated the market value to be
>at $2800 for an original ICE version. They based it
>on actual selling price in the area. We are trying to
>repair it instead of total it.
Save yourself some effort, as this is one you'll lose. You insured
and paid the premium on whatever the base car was. That is, unless
you purchased an assigned value policy, sometimes called 'stated
value' insurance.
You're in the same circumstance as someone who heavily customizes a
conventional car. Without assigned value or other custom car
insurance, you're only insuring the base vehicle.
I've been the route of assigned value insurance. It is quite expensive
if you're actually driving the car, as opposed to parking and showing
it. In my case, I had over $15k in just the engine. The process to
reach an agreed-upon value was long and tortuous. I had to collect
receipts for all the parts and then justify a labor rate and the
number of hours involved. Fortunately I kept a journal and kept time
for tax purposes, since I was in the engine building business back
then.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:31:32 -0500 (CDT), "Michaela Merz"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Talking about generators: I am thinking about building a genset to deliver
>about 10 to 15 KW. My question: Whould it make more sense to use a
>commutator-type DC generator or would it make more sense to have a
>rectifier bridge behind an AC generator?
It depends. A high frequency AC generator/bridge setup has the edge
in efficiency, though not by much. The AC generator can have a large
weight advantage if you go with a high frequency unit. If you use a
PM alternator or self-excited wound rotor alternator, then there are
no brushes to maintain. OTOH, the DC generator will withstand more
abuse. If you accidentally short the thing, most likely there will be
no damage while one is likely to burn out at least the diodes in the
AC setup.
For most folks, it boils down to cost. You use whatever you can get
the cheapest. For example, I noticed that Harbor Freight has the
Italian-made 60 hz alternators on sale right now. A 10kw head is a
little over $200. I used that head on my homemade diesel generator
and am quite satisfied with it. It is a brushless, self-excited
alternator.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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At 10:40 AM 10/18/2005, Neon John wrote:
the cheapest. For example, I noticed that Harbor Freight has the
Italian-made 60 hz alternators on sale right now. A 10kw head is a
little over $200. I used that head on my homemade diesel generator
and am quite satisfied with it. It is a brushless, self-excited
alternator.
Umm, I think you and I have a different definition of "a little".
I don't consider $299.99 to be "a little over $200". (usually, it's $399)
(Note: that is really rated at 7200W continuous, not 10KW)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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I'm a little confused on the concept. These gensets are usually
inefficient, bad emissions, and quite noisy. While you may not need to
use the genset within its electric range, using it would negate all the
benefits of electric vehicles, in fact it should be far worse than the
original engine on those 3 fronts.
If it all boils down to cost then the best thing is to go with the
original engine. If we're talking about making a hybrid then I'd think
you'd look for a setup that yields a benefit or the cost is wasted. The
Capstone, some of the new tech superengines would be interesting.
Danny
Neon John wrote:
For most folks, it boils down to cost. You use whatever you can get
the cheapest. For example, I noticed that Harbor Freight has the
Italian-made 60 hz alternators on sale right now. A 10kw head is a
little over $200. I used that head on my homemade diesel generator
and am quite satisfied with it. It is a brushless, self-excited
alternator.
John
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At 11:06 AM 10/18/2005, Danny Miller wrote:
I'm a little confused on the concept. These gensets are usually
inefficient, bad emissions, and quite noisy. While you may not need
to use the genset within its electric range, using it would negate
all the benefits of electric vehicles, in fact it should be far
worse than the original engine on those 3 fronts.
Depends on what you use for a motor. If you use a modern car engine
with all the Pollution Controls intact, it would make a nice quiet
efficient clean generator.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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