EV Digest 4833
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) PVC Box or something ?
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PFC75 vs a Controller as Charger
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Prestolite 36v motors on Ebay
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The big one.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Zilla Cooling
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: "Zero" Mower and "Orange Juice" on featured display at East Coast
electric Expo next week
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Zilla Cooling
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Backup generator or true hybrid
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: PVC Box or something ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Prestolite 36v motors on Ebay
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: PVC Box or something ?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Backup generator or true hybrid - engine weight
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) chevy s--10 us electricar for sale
by "Danny Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) motor selection - am I missing something?
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Fwd: motor selection - am I missing something? - correction
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fet Switch (for heater etc) ; Also, Relay Question [maybe OT]
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: PVC Box or something ?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to place
all the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood? Coudl have a
12vlt fan pumping air thru it etc ?
Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to
come up with a solution..
FYI,
Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
CWarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea LOTS!
The DC rail is targeted to be just over 400 volts. Our first EV is low
voltage. So the closer the DC rail is to the actual EV pack in volts the
less heat you make in the Buck controller.
So we use a 480 to 277 step down for most of our voltage drop, Then we use
a Buck controller( 400 amp IGBT 1/2 bridge modules) and some really large
inductors, to drop the DC rail down to the target pack.
This of course is controlled by more that a few PCBs and control loops and
other Rich and Joe magic.
The charger operates as a single PFC50 charger but with 400 amp output
limits.
We are sucking only 90 amps a phase of 480... we don't need that much amps.
Sure with some voltage control feed back of the Zilla, you could just wire
the DC rail in to a Zilla and the motor loop would go to the battery pack.
It would work...maybe some inductors... in the motor lead...
My way is a LOT cheaper... I have all the power silicon on one heatsink,
that's a little longer than my Z2K. I can also run my gear continous at 400
amps. The Z2k can do 750 amps continous... But not the Z1K.
Also don't hold your breath for Otmar to use 1200 silicon in his
controllers... either one of us does not like the 2x thermal loading they
require. My stuff could handle it... but, not any fun at all.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: PFC75 vs a Controller as Charger
> Just curious, if you have a 3-phase 480V supply. You
> could get 672V DC. I would think it is far cheaper to
> just use a controller such as the Z1k "UHV" (not yet
> available). You would be able to recharge at 1000A or
> 672kW in theory provided your battery voltage is lower
> than 672V.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Ed Ang
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> Large (approx 9" dia and long) and heavy (100 lbs) and the real
> deal breaker is the female spline output. Not easy or cheap to
> work around unless you have a machine shop handy.
Aha, it's probably a pump motor. A hydraulic pump mounts right on the
end, and plugs into that spline. You may also find that the motor has
only two terminals, as they didn't need to reverse it. Such motors are
used for the hydraulic lift in forklifts, where valving provided the
up/down control.
You could find one of the pumps, and build a hydraulic drive EV as was
talked about earlier. Or, just salvage the shaft from the pump as an
adapter.
Adding reverse isn't too hard. Open the motor, cut the internal
connection between armature and field, and bring both ends out
separately.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> While I understand your excitement, I wouldn't know what to
> do with 75kW charger even if get one for free and have 5 EVs
> with lead sitting waiting for fast charge... Any *practical*
> implications relevant to plain mortals in residential areas?
Critics of EVs complain about slow charging being a "major" limit. You
can refuel a car or truck in minutes; but an EV takes hours. With a fast
charger, you could have a "filling station" that services many EVs, one
after the other. The high cost of the high-power charger is spread out
over many EVs.
Another application is racing. It would be nice to have a fast, high
power charger at the track to recharge EVs quickly between races. This
assumes that the track itself is a large enough business to have enough
power for such purposes.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 11:18:51PM -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
> <..snip..>
> >
> > With PFC or three phase rectification, you get about 90% of the rated power
> > into the battery. In a well matched system the engine reaches its power
> > limit before the alternator gets hot.
>
> When you say three phase rectification, do you mean just 6 diodes?
>
> If that is the case, why not get a generator head that produces 3 phase, and
> drop them across a 3 phase rectifier?
>
> Would that work?
Sure! That's what all our car alternators do.
If you have an engine driven generator, a 3-phase generator and six
diodes is pretty hard to beat from a simplicity and efficiency
standpoint.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> three phase rectification with high current output will have
> 12 diodes. Each phase getting full wave bridge rectification.
No, just six diodes. Each phase *does* get full wave rectification.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee A. Hart wrote:
>> No; this relay is only for switching 12vdc loads (32vdc maximum).
>> It would be a very bad choice for a high voltage heater load!
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> So why? Could you put four relays in series?
Automotive relays are built to lower standards than conventional relays.
Here are some typical differences:
- Relays with agency approvals (UL, CSA, CE, etc.) have been tested
by someone other than the manufacturer, to see if their ratings
are real or just advertising.
- Automotive relay contact ratings are specified for a life of
10,000 actuations; most other relays use 100,000 actuations.
You can find the same relay specified at "15amps" for normal
usage, but "30amps" for automotive use because it only has to
last 1/10th as long to pass.
- Automotive relays use smaller off-state contact spacings. They
are rated at 24-32v, and generally can't break more than about
48v.
- Automotive relays don't have much insulation between the coil and
contacts. Conventional relays generally have enough insulation to
pass "hipot" tests, which require in excess of 1000 volts of
insulation between coil and contacts.
- Relays that pass agency testing must be built with materials that
won't burn, or cause shorts or fires. Automotive relays have no
such requirements.
> Is this similar to fuses as well?
Yes, it a way. Automotive fuses are only rated to 32v. At higher
voltages they can fail to open (arc across the opened ends), melt, catch
fire, burn, or even explode (fling flaming bits of debris that can set
other things on fire)!
A fuse designed for the voltage in question will normally be submitted
to some independent testing agency, who tests it to be sure it won't
arc, burn, or explode when it opens.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the feedback from "the real world." Oddlt enough, I've noticed
that how things have actually acted in the past tends to be a
better predictor of future behavior than theory. :) The radiator goes back
into the design...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:10:14 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>John... some of our Gencarts are the ripped out Gas engine with all the
>emissions gear in working order.
Do they dummy in a speedo signal? The reason I ask is that many/most
PCMs vary the control algorithm depending on vehicle speed. Idle and
lean cruise are the cleanest regions. Throttle openings above about
3/4 are uncontrolled because the EPA loop doesn't test in that region.
It would be interesting to bag the exhaust and see how it compares to
a car.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I have spent a lot of time tuning the adjustments for regen. neutral,
and reversing brake levels to give just the right feel to the
joysticks. To stiff and you weave (jerk) left to right, to weak and it
feels like you have turbo lag and push. I haven't tried using two of
the Zapi's series units with regen and series motors but I would guess
that by the time the contactors react you will already be wanting to do
something else. Are your winch motors series or PM? If cost is #1
factor get 2 eteks, and 2 4QD controllers. The 4Qd's aren't the most
reliable but a lot of bang for the buck, small, and nice reversing with
no contactors. I have plenty of used Eteks if you are interested. Only
1 old 4QD in stock but I'm sure Richard Torrens has plenty in stock.
We're moving forward as quickly as possible getting the mower into
production. We really shook up the major players in the industry at the
Lawn and Garden Expo. Don't be surprised if you're able to buy an
electric ZTR with a big time brand name within a year or two.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 12:16:41 -0500
Subject: Re: "Zero" Mower and "Orange Juice" on featured display at
East Coast electric Expo next week
Hi Shawn,,,
well my ev ztr mower project is moving very slowly , I have it at my ev
friends house and work on it there once a week . after this weeks visit
I'm feeling like its got a long way to go , the drive is 2 winch motors
and 2 altrax 48v controllers dose not give it the precise steering
needed , and it kind of drifts on way or another , the problem looks to
be that when you cut power to one wheel it still keeps going some what
, I can see needing someway to brake each wheel ,I know , there are
ways to do this but the list of thing to do goes on , was just
wondering how you set up the drive and , what is the price your going
to be selling them for , even if I get my done I still might want to
sell yours to people who see mine ( if I get mine done ) . I could
probable make just as much money setting up a trailer with batteries
for charging and selling your mower to other yard men as making or
converting mowers for them . I'm feeling the presser to do something as
my back up mower blow a connecting rod yesterday , I then spent the day
fixing my other , which needed a head and starter motor , but that
engine is old also , If I can't make the jump to electric I'll have to
buy another gas engine :-( ...
the lawn season is winding down , but still running hard , still 7 days
a week ,
Steve Clunn
s
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:07 AM
Subject: "Zero" Mower and "Orange Juice" on featured display at East
Coast electric Expo next week
If anyone in the Philadelphia area is interested in the "Zero" mower
or > our newly rebuilt Orange Juice dragster with 12 of the most
powerful Lemco > motors ever, they will both be on featured display at
the East Coast > Electric Expo October 26-27 in King of Prussia, PA.
Admission is free. To > register go to www.eap.org and follow the links
to the show. I tried to > get them to let us do burnouts in the parking
area but got a big "I don't > think so". The show hrs are very
convenient, 2-8pm. Stop by and say Hi.
Shawn Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more thing, I forgot to tell you about my setup.
Make sure that the fill tank water level is higher than the Zilla. This makes
sure that there is no air entrapment and its easy to fill. I am using a
standard remote fill nylon tank that is used for some cars that have a radiator
lower than the engine.
Its has a 3/4 outlet out the bottom side that connects right to the pump and a
3/8 inlet that goes in the top, but pipes down below the water level in the
tank so air is never expose in the lines.
The tank I'm using is a GM tank for a Pontiac that happens to have a level
sensor in it, that you can connect up to a 12 Volt LED.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: kluge<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla Cooling
Thanks for all the feedback from "the real world." Oddlt enough, I've
noticed that how things have actually acted in the past tends to be a
better predictor of future behavior than theory. :) The radiator goes back
into the design...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Contacted AC Propulsion. Their Long Ranger would be 55k. Isn't there
something I can bolt together that puts out 120vdc @ 100 amps....
LR............
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Cwarman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: PVC Box or something ?
Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to place
all the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood? Coudl have a
12vlt fan pumping air thru it etc ?
Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to
come up with a solution..
This is what I done.
If you can, go to a Electrical Supply house and get a catalog on Hoffman
Enclosures or Carlon Enclosures. You can get them in water proof Nema 12
plastic, steel, aluminum or stainless steel. They have chassic plates for them
to mount the components on. They have either hinge covers, bolt on covers or
lift off covers.
Cut out a air outlet hole on one side and install a stainless steel grill
that comes in the options or sometimes a stainless grill that is the size a
switch plate that is sometimes used for outdoor entry speakers.
On the other side, cut another hole to mount a 6 inch Dayton blower fan that
produces about 150 CFM. My is a 12 VDC at about 5 amps. It has a flat mounting
surface that bolts right up to the enclosure. A 6-inch carburetor filter will
bolt to the inlet, by installing a cross bar and a 1/4-inch thread rod for the
filter chrome cover.
While I was there at the electrical supply house, I was able to order a
Dayton 12 volt fan. You may find other sources for these fans.
For cable entrances, I used large black plastic box connectors for cables
that come in straight or angle with conduit sizes of 1/2 to 1 inch. On some of
these box connectors that angle down, I remove the rubber cable grip and
install standard wire looms right into them, so you do not have any expose
wires.
Also, you could install grommets that fit tightly around the larger power
cables. Install some extra conduit entry holes for future used and blank them
off with a conduit snap in plug.
Roland
FYI,
Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
CWarman
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:19 AM 19/10/05 -0700, Lee wrote:
David Chapman wrote:
> Large (approx 9" dia and long) and heavy (100 lbs) and the real
> deal breaker is the female spline output. Not easy or cheap to
> work around unless you have a machine shop handy.
Aha, it's probably a pump motor. A hydraulic pump mounts right on the
end, and plugs into that spline. You may also find that the motor has
only two terminals, as they didn't need to reverse it.
Ooohh, have a look at it and see if it has three terminals - the third one
(when present, don't know how common this is) is for field strengthening.
The fork (or whatever it is out of) two-speed controls the motor by
powering this extra terminal for low speed. Might make the difference for
off-the-line torque and drop it out for higher RPM.
But it may also be a compound motor (has both series and paralell fields)
which may make things more interesting to move away from its' design specs.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the plastic box and the muffin fan for cooling can be gotten from www.grainger
.com they have a very good selection and if you can get the catolog they carry
a good source of electrical controls
-------------- Original message --------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cwarman
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:53 AM
> Subject: PVC Box or something ?
>
>
> Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to place
> all the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood? Coudl have a
> 12vlt fan pumping air thru it etc ?
>
> Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to
> come up with a solution..
>
> This is what I done.
>
> If you can, go to a Electrical Supply house and get a catalog on Hoffman
> Enclosures or Carlon Enclosures. You can get them in water proof Nema 12
> plastic, steel, aluminum or stainless steel. They have chassic plates for
> them
> to mount the components on. They have either hinge covers, bolt on covers or
> lift off covers.
>
> Cut out a air outlet hole on one side and install a stainless steel grill
> that
> comes in the options or sometimes a stainless grill that is the size a switch
> plate that is sometimes used for outdoor entry speakers.
>
> On the other side, cut another hole to mount a 6 inch Dayton blower fan that
> produces about 150 CFM. My is a 12 VDC at about 5 amps. It has a flat
> mounting
> surface that bolts right up to the enclosure. A 6-inch carburetor filter will
> bolt to the inlet, by installing a cross bar and a 1/4-inch thread rod for
> the
> filter chrome cover.
>
> While I was there at the electrical supply house, I was able to order a
> Dayton
> 12 volt fan. You may find other sources for these fans.
>
> For cable entrances, I used large black plastic box connectors for cables
> that
> come in straight or angle with conduit sizes of 1/2 to 1 inch. On some of
> these
> box connectors that angle down, I remove the rubber cable grip and install
> standard wire looms right into them, so you do not have any expose wires.
>
> Also, you could install grommets that fit tightly around the larger power
> cables. Install some extra conduit entry holes for future used and blank them
> off with a conduit snap in plug.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> FYI,
>
> Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
>
> CWarman
>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Fiat 126,
Defintely can't run on ATF. However, that is recommended by the fiat
community that synthetic oil be used or semi-synthetic. Any brand
recommendations. And anybody used that morley's oil additive. Claims to
stick to the gear surface more.
Also anyone tried low rolling resistance tyres. Do they reduce the amount of
current draw by a great deal? What brands and models am I looking at?
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 October 2005 00:12
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
<<<<Used a Full Synthetic Extreme Duty High/Low Temperature Rate Gear Oil,
which
the oil companies developed for the machines at the north slopes. This type
of
oil
is now available in all types of grades for engines, transmission and axils
at
any auto parts store.
In 1975, Conoco was one of the first to develop a Polar Grade that I used in
the
transmission standard gear boxes and differentials. It was just like
automatic
transmission fluid.
At that time, it was recommended if the gear boxes had standard gear oil in
it,
that you clean out the oil and replace all the gaskets and seals before you
add
the Polar Grade. Today, you might be able to add some of this synthetic oil
with no other adjustments.>>>>
Is this the lowest friction lube you can use, or only the most
temp-tolerant?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:21:29 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Lee A. Hart wrote:
>>> No; this relay is only for switching 12vdc loads (32vdc maximum).
>>> It would be a very bad choice for a high voltage heater load!
>
>Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
>> So why? Could you put four relays in series?
To answer your question, the reason you usually can't get away with
series'ing relays is that one will invariably open before the rest and
that one will have to interrupt the full voltage. The others will
open right behind the first one but during that interval, the one set
of contacts will have to handle the arc. Nontheless, if I were in
your shoes, I'd try it (see below). With the aid of a carefully
selected snubber network, that relay might just work well enough for
your application.
I'm quite fond of this type of relay:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?xi=xi&ItemId=1611684977&ccitem=
Note that even though this relay isn't rated for high voltage DC, it
works just fine. They've been used by the thousands in power plants
for 125 and 250VDC applications at moderate current. It would work
just peachy for a heater contactor, especially if you use both sets of
contacts. This is just a suggestion and not a recommendation. Try it
before you bolt it into your EV.
This type of relay isn't very vibration resistant, especially in the
de-energized position, so it is suitable only for on-road EVs.
>
>Automotive relays are built to lower standards than conventional relays.
>Here are some typical differences:
Though I'd not recommend an automotive relay to someone else for a
high voltage DC application, I can't resist noting, as Ronald Reagan
said, "There you go again", smearing with a broad, blunt and incorrect
brush.
>
> - Relays with agency approvals (UL, CSA, CE, etc.) have been tested
> by someone other than the manufacturer, to see if their ratings
> are real or just advertising.
Irrelevant to automotive products, as the SAE and OEM standards are
much more applicable to the automotive environment than anything those
outfits would come up with. Note that most all small components like
relays have the CE stamp which is little more than window dressing.
>
> - Automotive relay contact ratings are specified for a life of
> 10,000 actuations; most other relays use 100,000 actuations.
> You can find the same relay specified at "15amps" for normal
> usage, but "30amps" for automotive use because it only has to
> last 1/10th as long to pass.
The manufacturers beg to disagree.
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/623/1204.pdf
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/appliance/pdf/catalogs/1308242_10-Automotive_Relays.pdf
Note that both catalogs list the inexpensive relays with a mechanical
life of 10,000,000 mechanical operations and 100,000 operations at
rated current.
But even if they only lasted 10k cycles as Lee claimed, that would be
OK. Consider that 2 cycles a day, every day would mean the relay
would last for 137 years. 20 cycles a day (maybe a heater under
thermostat control) would still mean almost 14 years. BFD.
One should also note the "limiting curve for power load" plots for the
various relays. These relays are useful up to 36 volts at full rated
life. I use the 40 amp SPST "bosch" type relays on my 72 volt car
with great success. Do I care if they last 100k operation? Heck no.
At under $10 a pop, I'll just stick a new one in when the old one
fails.
One should also note that these relays are spec'ed for switching
resistive loads bare. The addition of an RC snubber across the
contacts will GREATLY extend their lives.
>
> - Automotive relays use smaller off-state contact spacings. They
> are rated at 24-32v, and generally can't break more than about
> 48v.
Depending on the relay type, they can handle even higher voltages at
(sometimes) dramatically reduced life.
>
> - Automotive relays don't have much insulation between the coil and
> contacts. Conventional relays generally have enough insulation to
> pass "hipot" tests, which require in excess of 1000 volts of
> insulation between coil and contacts.
Pretty irrelevant to a low voltage EV.
>
> - Relays that pass agency testing must be built with materials that
> won't burn, or cause shorts or fires.
You mean like those cheap-*ssed ChiCom made outlet strips with brass
foil contacts that are causing so many fires but that still have that
cute li'l holographic UL sticker? How 'bout all those UL approved
plastic coffee makers that have caused enough fires to make the
nightly news? Or how 'bout those mobile home/RV self-contained
electrical outlets with the brass foil contacts that literally slag in
the presence of a 15 amp load? Those are just some of my favorites.
Oh wait, I get it. The UL STICKER is fireproof....
>Automotive relays have no such requirements.
Really? SAE and mfr's specs say otherwise. (Sorry, Boys and girls, no
online references available. I had to actually pay for my SAE
handbook. I'm sure that any of the major component manufacturers
would answer questions about reliability and safety testing.)
---
Now some thoughts on using components for other than their intended
purposes. Just about every tinkerer and many engineers do this. They
see an application that some gadget would address that may be far from
what it was designed for. One of my favorite examples is the
anti-dribble valve used on the de-icing system of the B-29. Similar
to a checkvalve but with a heftier spring so that a certain positive
pressure was required to open it. Fitted with an even heftier spring,
it made an excellent pressure threshold valve for water injecting a
turbocharged engine.
As I mentioned in private email to a list member recently, I see a lot
of parallels between the current EV world and hotrodding in the 50s
and 60s. Factory-made components were few and far between. We had to
either adapt things made for other applications or make gadgets from
scratch.
So goes the EV world. Very few components are made specifically for
electric automotive applications. We adapt components from elsewhere.
Most folks copy what others have done, a perfectly fine thing to do.
But when one of us ventures out on his own, what sort of
considerations should one take into account.
At the top of the list is "life safety", a term of art that has grown
to include injury and accident safety. The first question to ask is
"if this component fails, are there life safety considerations?" Can
it hurt or kill someone? If the answer is "yes" or "maybe" then one
must proceed very carefully or not at all. Would I use some steel
tubing of unknown parentage for brake plumbing? No. Would I use a
relay that passed the eyeball test to control a heater element? Yep,
sure would. The worst the thing can do is weld shut, whereupon I hit
the main disconnect and remove a wire from the relay until I can
replace it.
The next consideration is "if this part fails, will it leave me
stranded?" Again, if the answer is "yes" then tread carefully. Would
I use an AC motor starter as my main disconnect? Probably not, unless
it was huge. Would I use a small AC motor control relay to control
the power to my DC/DC converter? You bet.
Next, "could the failure of this component cause a fire?" The answer
usually is "it depends". If I used a switch or relay made of
flammable components, there may be a fire hazard if it is mounted out
in the open. That same relay mounted inside a closed metal box will
be fine.
Last, "will the failure cause damage to other [expensive] components?"
An under-rated fuse mounted right under the controller might be a good
example. If the fuse flambe'd itself when it blew, then having the
flames lick the controller is generally a bad idea. OTOH, if the fuse
is isolated in a metal box or simply located away from anything
flammable, then all that happens is a scorch mark and maybe a skid
mark in the ole shorts :-)
All the above assumes that one is hacking the component for his own
use. Hacking a component for someone else, particularly an
unqualified person, is a whole 'nuther ball of wax. I tend to get
REAL conservative when others are involved.
This question of "can I use this part for that application to save
money or because I already have it" comes up often enough that I'm
going to point out the obvious - the only way to really know is to try
it.
If I wanted to know if an automotive relay would work to control a 140
volt DC heater, I'd lash it up in the middle of the floor or wherever
and try it. I'd run power from my pack through a suitable fuse over
to the relay and heater. I'd wire up a toggle switch to the relay
coil, or even better, a cycle timer to automate the process, and then
cycle the relay to my heart's content. If the relay slags after the
first operation, well, nothing lost except the relay and a lot
learned. OTOH, if you find that it works OK, then you've answered
your own question.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I was writing that I was thinking about the GEO motor and wondering how
light it actually was. 169 pounds is awesome! That would make a great
genset package with a good generator. It would also, in my opinion, be much
quieter than a regular generator since you can run a full exhaust system
below the trailer package with a catalytic converter and muffler.
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Marino [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:03 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Backup generator or true hybrid - engine weight
>From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: "'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: RE: Backup generator or true hybrid
>Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 19:44:58 -0400
>
>but heavy as all get out. Most car engines weigh close to 600 pounds with
>all the crap on them. Maybe if you used a water cooled motorcycle motor
>that would be less weight.
>
Not all car engines are that heavy. I weighed the engine I took out of my
Echo - it was 169 lbs. I was surprised ( and disappointed) at the time at
how light it was. It's the same block as the Prius - with different valve
timing, and probably some other small differences.
That weight included the intake and exhaust manifolds and flywheel. You
would have to add the computer (about 2 pounds) and the radiator ( 10 lbs)
and a few other things. But, you'd probably end up not much over 200 pounds
total.
It's a 1.5 liter, 96 HP engine. This was a car with an original curb weight
of 1980#. It would have plenty of power for any on-board generator- even
for a much larger car.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ive got a chevy s-10 Ive been driving back and forth to work . worked great
until i drove it in a lite rain . Ive done everthing i can to get it back
but it must be way over my head. the pack is good. ive tried to use the
dolcom program but could never get the computer to recognize the truck. im
done lack of experience forces me to sell. i need 8500 to break even if any
one is interested within the next two weeks call 503 438 5338 or email me at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] comes with a magne charger . email for photos. Dan Lee
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18
motors (and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using
26 110AH (20 HR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient
motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries
should be able to provide 36 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD
excluding gains from regen and losses from hills.
(110AH 20AH Rating * 0.63 (1.5HR correction) * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90
minute run))
I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that
they are both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think I
only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller. Since
the max current ratings are well above my operating current. Can I
ignore the continuous current requirement of the motor assuming my
batteries can deliver the max required by the motor?
Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the AC55
would give me more range:
Siemens motor + controller = 84%
AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for
controller)
MES motor = ?
The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh
3700lbs, the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill
drag changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc
for my route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor
decision doesn't seem to depend on that.
Does any of this make sense?
-Robert Baertsch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've fixed the amp calculation the battery's 1Ahr rating is 80AH.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 19, 2005 3:58:40 PM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: motor selection - am I missing something?
Hi All,
I'm trying to decide between the Solectria AC55 and Siemens 5133W18 motors (and MES - please send efficiency specs if you have them)
My primary requirement for the vehicle is an 80 mile range. I'm using 26 80AH (1AHR) AGM batteries and looking for the most efficient motor/controller. Considering the trip takes 90 minutes, my batteries should be able to provide 51 amps for 90 minutes assuming 80% DOD excluding gains from regen and losses from hills.
(80AH 1AH Rating * 0.80 (DOD) * 60/90 (90 minute run)) = 51 amps
I've looked at the torque curve for both motors and determined that they are both powerful enough, so to calculate my power usage I think I
only need to look at the efficiency of the motor and controller. Since the max current ratings are well above my operating current. Can I ignore the continuous current requirement of the motor assuming my batteries can deliver the max required by the motor?
Assuming I run the motor at peak efficiency at highway speeds the AC55 would give me more range:
Siemens motor + controller = 84%
AC55 motor + DMOC = 89-91% (assuming 93% motor and 96-98% for controller)
MES motor = ?
The AC55 weighs 50lb extra but considering the car+batteries weigh 3700lbs, the motor power density calculation seems insignificant.
Can I assume the motor efficiency remains the same as the wind / hill drag changes, assuming I maintain the same RPM?
Has anyone evaluated regen efficiency?
Note: I'm going to borrow a GPS and do Don Cameron's cool energy calc for my route to make sure my battery sizing is ok, but the motor decision doesn't seem to depend on that.
Does any of this make sense?
-Robert Baertsch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very good, on-topic response. I think this answers the original
question, even (?).
After a long read, back to adding to my already $6000 Digi-Key Fund
donation for the AC EV cause.
- Arthur
> I'm quite fond of this type of relay:
>
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?xi=xi&ItemId=1611684977&ccitem=
>
> Note that even though this relay isn't rated for high voltage DC, it
> works just fine. They've been used by the thousands in power plants
> for 125 and 250VDC applications at moderate current. It would work
> just peachy for a heater contactor, especially if you use both sets of
> contacts. This is just a suggestion and not a recommendation. Try it
> before you bolt it into your EV.
>
> If I wanted to know if an automotive relay would work to control a 140
> volt DC heater, I'd lash it up in the middle of the floor or wherever
> and try it. I'd run power from my pack through a suitable fuse over
> to the relay and heater. I'd wire up a toggle switch to the relay
> coil, or even better, a cycle timer to automate the process, and then
> cycle the relay to my heart's content. If the relay slags after the
> first operation, well, nothing lost except the relay and a lot
> learned. OTOH, if you find that it works OK, then you've answered
> your own question.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep. All they grey boxes in this pic
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/NewBeetleEngine.jpg are
weatherproof enclosures from the local electrical supply place. Home depot
has them as well. I can darn near spray the whole engine compartment with
water, without too much concern.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cwarman
Sent: October 19, 2005 10:53 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: PVC Box or something ?
Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to place all
the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood? Coudl have a 12vlt
fan pumping air thru it etc ?
Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to come
up with a solution..
FYI,
Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
CWarman
>
>
--- End Message ---
