EV Digest 4837
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: window defrost
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: charger woes, obsolete parts
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re:window defrost
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Opportunity Charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Zilla Cooling
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electric drag racing Science Channel, 8PM EST
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: PVC Box or something ?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: window defrost
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: window defrost
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Vacuum Pump / ABS
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: window defrost
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) BBC EV podcast
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) BBC Radio 4
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: window defrost
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Zilla Cooling
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) AC motors - effect of number of poles
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Vacuum Pump / ABS
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Liquid cooling - reservoir or no reservoir (thermal expansion, etc)
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Why Le Car makes a great EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> mike golub wrote:
> > I was wondering if anyone had come up with a system
> > that would defrost the front window with 120 v ac at
> > the mains, before leaving home or work, and then
> > switching to battery mode.
> >
> > What is the most efficient way to do this?
There are commercial products for this purpose, such as the one
described at the huge URL below:
<http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3E
prd_id=845524441889011&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374303517494&FOLDER%3C
%3EbrowsePath=1408474396669671&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396669671&AS
SORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1129836109917>
Simply plug the 120VAC heater into a timer so that it comes on an
appropriate amount of time (1hr?) before you need to use the car, so
that you aren't wasting energy keeping the car warmed all night (or
day).
If the problem is more that of falling snow melting and freezing on the
outside surface of the windshield than condensation freezing on the
inside of the glass, then a product such as this may help:
<http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3E
prd_id=845524441889023&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374303517494&FOLDER%3C
%3EbrowsePath=1408474396669671&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396669671&AS
SORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1129836196518>
Very efficient since it consumes no energy, and could dramatically
reduce the energy required to clear the windows since the heating system
is left only having to deal with the frozen condensation.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is my 2 cents worth, and I hope it helps.
It sounds like a standard brute force type power supply. It probably doesn't
have a really serious issue. Have you thought about using an ESR meter on all
the electrolytic caps? I seriously doubt you have a semiconductor failure.
Over the years I have found thousands of bad electolytics and would bet you
have one or more that has degraded. "Degraded" meaning they MAY have gone down
in capacitance, but more importantly UP in effective series resistance. You
might have noticed my username here is "screendoctor" This is because for
several years I ran a business (can't live on teacher salary alone) exclusively
for repair of computer monitors (back when they were worth fixing). I use the
Dick Smith ESR meter, but there are others. I doubt you will find anything
using a scope other than maybe excessive ripple on the output.
Here is a link for popular ESR meters. The Dick Smith kit comes from
Australia, is a kit, is cheap, and I have made THOUSANDS of dollars off of mine!
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm
These will find caps that are degraded with high effective series resistance
while they are in the circuit. Chances are you will need to replace quite a
few of them if the charger is very old.
An ESR meter will save you a bunch of time repairing about any electronic
product.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
> From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/10/20 Thu AM 08:09:48 EST
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: charger woes, obsolete parts
>
> I have a 36 volt charger (probably intended for golf cart use) made by
> Quick Charge Corp in Oklahoma. I've realized that the batteries in my ET
> are doing badly because the charger finish voltage was way too low...
> about 40 volts. Looking inside, I found an an adjustment pot which
> brought it up to 43 volts, which is still a little low and I wonder if
> something has gone bad in the charger.
>
> I'm trying to figure out the basic topology so I know how to
> troubleshoot it: The charger uses a 72 volt center tapped transformer.
> The tap goes to pack positive. The two ends of the coil each go to a
> large transistor-like semiconductor package on the control board and the
> outputs join together to go to pack negative. The transformer also has a
> small coil for about 22 volts that goes through a bridge rectifier - I
> assume this to be a power source for the control circuitry.
>
> The circuitry consists of the two power semiconductors, a handful of
> discrete resistors, capacitors, a small transistor, and a 6-pin chip
> labeled "TIL111 TI645". The marking on the PCB near this chip indicates
> it may produce a 16 volt square wave. The power semiconductors are
> marked "87L USA HIS235" which I can't find at Mouser, DigiKey etc.,
> nor with Google. And being made in USA (!) I assume to be old and likely
> obsolete.
>
> So, can anyone speculate what type of devices these may be? I'm thinking
> I may need to watch things on an oscilloscope to see what is happening,
> but I'd like to have some clue what I'm looking for.
>
> -
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking at the JC Whitney web site and found a small heater unit
with a fan for $29 that plugs in the cigarette lighter. Has anyone used
this unit for defrost or heat. It states that it is not intended to heat
the whole car. I was thinking of buying one for a defroster.
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2002937/showCustom-0/p-2002937/N-111+600002304+10201/c-10101
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Once my EV Motorcycle ran out of juice just 2 short miles from home. Rolled
into the local BP (Gas) station. Went inside bought a soda and explained
situation to the convenience store manager. Asked politely if I could charge
and
offered to pay a buck for the favor. Manager looked at me sipping my soda and
mumbled something about not letting my vehicle sit in the parking lot all
night. Anyway I sincerely appreciated the opportunity to charge and expressed
my heartfelt thanks to the manager and the counter clerk.
30 minutes later on my way grinning like a lunatic. Bet Sr. Management at BP
would have a cow at the mere thought. Something way cool about charging an
EV at a gas station. Anyway I sincerely appreciated the opportunity to charge
and expressed my heartfelt thanks to the manager and the counter clerk before
I left.
Did you know (I noticed this some time ago) that almost all gas stations
have three prong 15 amp outlets on the side of the building. Now don't go
getting any darn fool ideas boys and girls.
Did you know that a gas station makes about 3% on gas and 35% on the
convenience store items? Got to be the cusp of a good idea in here
somewhere....what
if we proposed to pay each gas station owner 30% profit on the measured
amount of electricity we drained out? Suppose they would mind letting up use
one
of their existing outlets for a while? Please don't take this idea too far.
I'm mostly kidding around here.
Dreaming about a BP station with solar panels on the roof (3 do in the
Denver area), a busy food stop, empty gas pumps with a dozen or so EVs quietly
sipping juice.
- Mike B.
DEVC
Colorado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> I don't know where you got that efficiency figure for the siemens motor
>> from, but I believe it's incorrect.
> It is from Victor's website on the performance simulations for the
> Mazda MX6 with the 5133WS18.
>
>> Last I checked the siemens peak efficiency (motor & controller) was
>> over 90%.
Oops, I missremembered it.
Peak is 88%
http://www.metricmind.com/line_art/efficiency.gif
Note: this is at a fairly low voltage (for this system), I believe the
efficiency improves at higher voltages.
> I'm aware the current changes, but how does the efficiency change if
> you keep the same RPM with higher current?
Because of, among other things, I^2R losses, which are typically one of
the largest losses in a motor.
Ohms law states that
E=I*R
E=Voltage
I=Current
R=Resitance
The equation for electrical power is
P=E*I
You can combine the two equations
P=(I*R)*I
or
P=I*I*R
So the power lost in the motor equals the square of the current times the
motors internal resistance.
Look at the above efficiency chart
The vertical axis on the chart is Power
Mechanical Power = RPM x Torque
so if the RPM stays the same then the TORQUE has to increase right?
Pick an RPM say 6,000 rpm
Follow it up and you will see that the efficiency climbs from less than
70% to a peak above 88% and then falls off again.
At low power levels friction losses and magnetic losses predominate, at
higher power levels I2R losses dominate.
> [assuming that you do not exceed the rating of the motor or controller]
> If I'm reading the power curves properly, the torque is a maximum and
> that implies that the efficiency is constant at a particular RPM.
> AC55 curve
> http://www.azuredynamics.com/pdf/AC55%20-%20June%202005.pdf
> Siemens curves
> http://www.metricmind.com/data/performance.zip
You are not reading the curves correctly.
Power = RPM * Torque
You can NOT keep torque and RPM constant and vary power. One, or the
other, or both must vary.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is exactly what I am going to do on my S-10 conversion. I'm in AZ so
keeping cool is always a problem. I'm keeping the stock radiator and have a
March 809HS pump (~5 gal/min). I plan to put some temp sensors at strategic
points and then have the pump turn on as needed.
The specs on the Zilla says it will maintain full motor current up to 55 C
(~135 F) and that the cooling system should be designed to maintain the water
temp at 5 C above ambient. I didn't do the math but that seems to me that in
the summer time the pump will be on all the time, does that sound right?
So this brings me to a question - What kind of temp sensors can I get? I want
to attach one to the Zilla housing, the DC/DC housing and my battery pack. I
will also read the water temp, for that I can get an inline hot water gauge.
But for the 3 other components, I don't want 3 more gauges. Is there a cheap
sensor that I can use that will hook to a 3 way switch so that I can switch to
the desired component to read the temp?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwarman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zilla Cooling
> Has anyone here just hooked up the Ice's radiator and used this to cool
> the Zilla ? Run a 12vlt fuel pump on the bottom of the radiator to push
> the water/antifreeze thru the Zilla ?
>
> Im considering this but wanted to make sure this will work ok.. or thoughts
>
> CWarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw a preview last night on the science channel. They were talking about what
was comming up in the comming days and said something to the effect of "a
different kind of drag racing" where they showed the back of a car full or
orbitals and a sparrow going down the 1/4 mile.
Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Thanks Seth!
This is the latest I heard of where it will air. The segment features
the NEDRA Power of DC race held this past June.
Discoveries This Week (US)
Friday, October 21st, at 8 p.m.
Science Channel (US)
Sunday, October 23rd at 8 p.m.
Discovery Civilization (Canada)
Monday, October 24th, at 11 p.m.
If you don't have these channels you can still download the 6 minute
segment entitled "Electric Dragster" at
http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=9/19/2005
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No room for it, plus I'd have had to made the box much much taller to fit the
controller. However, where it's placed there really is no path for water to
make it's way to the controller anyhow. I was admittedly a bit nervous when I
first poped the hood the other day after driving in the rain for the first
time, but it was dry as could be. You could deffinitely design a box with
everything inside it, and now that you mention it I'll keep that in mind for a
future conversion. It would kind of be like having a EV1 magic brain box.
Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You didnt put the Zilla1k inside of your alum box ?
Cwarman
Ricky Suiter wrote:
>I've got my hairball, shunt, contactor, DC/DC converter and two fuse blocks in
>a custom made alluminum box under the hood. I have it where the top easily
>slides under a flange and the other end is held in with a latch. Rubber
>grommets are in every place where wires are going in or out, but it's not 100%
>weather sealed, however it would easily survive a spritz down. It got it's
>first test yesterday in some decent rain (it doesn't rain in Arizona much),
>and so far so good.
>
>Not sure you'd necessarily need air flow through it, but it wouldn't hurt. In
>my case the alluminum acts like a big heat spreader. The only thing that gets
>really hot is the DC/DC, and it seems to be doing alright.
>
>Cwarman wrote:
>Wouldnt it be nicer to have some type of element controlled box to place
>all the electronics inside of that mounted under the hood? Coudl have a
>12vlt fan pumping air thru it etc ?
>
>Living in northern Maine im nervous about the elements so im trying to
>come up with a solution..
>
>FYI,
>
>Got my warp 9 installed today into the S10......man this is fun!
>
>CWarman
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>
>
>
>
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: mike golub<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: window defrost
I was wondering if anyone had come up with a system
that would defrost the front window with 120 v ac at
the mains, before leaving home or work, and then
switching to battery mode.
What is the most efficient way to do this?
I'm not too worried about driving around at -20F here
in Fairbanks, AK with no heat (I have warm clothes) I
just worried about the windshield.
Thanks!
Hello Mike,
This is exactly what I do, is preheat the windshield and the interior of my
EV about 15 minutes before I leave. I live in Great Falls, Montana where it
can get to 40 below.
I just love driving in the winter with my EV. Its nice and warm and can push
through over 1 foot of snow. Its not a baby buggy EV that cannot run in the
rain, when its hot, when is cold, in high wind, or in deep snow. Can climb
steep icy hills where a lot of ICE vehicles are slipping and sliding. Can jump
my co-workers cars, with my heavy duty 12-15 volt 145 amps rotating
alternator/inverter/battery system.
To do this, the heaters work off 120 VAC that has a branch 20 amp circuit
breakers coming of the main VAC power that is plug into the EV. I have two 20
amp circuits that feed a 2000 watt hot water system and two 640 and 860 watt
under dash heaters.
In 15 minutes or less, it will heat up the interior to over 80 degrees and
heat the water that is used in the existing heater core. I used a dash mounted
transfer switch that can select the commercial power or a on board 120 VAC
7000 Watt inverter system which only works when the motor is turning a
combination alternator/inverter unit.
Could also used a DC-AC inverter that runs off the batteries. I prefer the
rotating alternator/inverter type, because on coast down and while the motor is
still turning, it still provides power without any battery power. Its also
gives me a mechanical REGEN on long down hill icy hills.
The unit I'm using if a Dynamote unit from Electronic Power House, 1200 West
Nickerson, Seattle WA 98119. 1-800-426-2838. In Alaska, call (206) 282-1000.
(these phone numbers may be dated).
These units are heavy duty units that are normally used in large boats. You
can get them in 500 to 3600 watts too that runs off a lower DC voltage.
The 2000 watt @ 120 VAC heater is a heavy duty engine heater normally used
for Semi's. It is about 3 inches in diameter and 24 inches long which is made
out of stainless steel. Its has a built in thermostat. I used a standard
brass 120 volt water pump that I pick up from a Plumbing and Heating Supply
house. The pump is a 1 gallon per minute type which is only 4 inches square.
Its best not to pump faster than that otherwise its not in the loop long enough
for heating and to dissipate the heat. Floor radiate heat has about 1-gallon
per minute rating.
There is no hot water radiator as you would have for a engine, but I used
just the tank part that you can get from a radiator shop. They take a blank
tank, and add the pressure cap and outlets of any size you want. I had them
install brass threaded pipe hub connectors in a copper tank.
I used Aeroquip connectors on the standard hot water hoses. There is no band
clamps to install these connectors, except used a industrial T-bolt band clamp
on the heater core stub outs.
In using a hot water system, the tank and the hoses, core, pumps, and heaters
hold about 2 gallons of water that is mix with 70% anti-freeze which is good to
84 F. below.
The 2000 watt heater, pump, tank, and hoses are all double insulated with
that good high dense Air Condition pipe foam. After I preheat the water to
about 160 degrees, it will retain that heat in this system even after setting
in -40 below zero for two hours. I was be able to defrost the windshield with
out any additional on board power. Only have to turn on one under dash heater
for 5 to 10 minutes on the driver side, or it will make me too warm.
If you already have a heater core that works off the main battery pack, you
still could add the under dash heaters or sometimes call cab heaters to
prewarm the cab. I have rework the heater duct system, so there is no outside
air coming through the heater core and just circulate the inside the heated air
thru the windshield ducts which starts to defrost the windshield. When its
above 0 degrees, I find that only one under dash heater running for 15 minutes
will defrost the everything.
Living in the north, I cannot stand to be in temperatures over 65 degrees to
long. It is still T-shirt weather at 30 degrees.
Roland
__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs<http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill & Nancy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was looking at the JC Whitney web site and found a small
> heater unit with a fan for $29 that plugs in the cigarette
> lighter. Has anyone used this unit for defrost or heat. It
> states that it is not intended to heat the whole car. I was
> thinking of buying one for a defroster.
I haven't used this specific product, but have tried a similar unit in
an old VW bus I used to own. The short answer is that pretty much none
of these 12V heaters will not do much of anything to defrost your
windows.
Consider that even at 10-20A @ 12VDC they could only possibly put out
120-240W, which is somewhere around 1/10th of what is typical of an EV
ceramic heater (~1500W per core, and EVers where defrost is needed
usually consider 1 core to be just barely adequate, and 2 good).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey CWarman ;)
I wouldn't remove the ABS system. With power disconnected, it should not
influence the braking process. I have an S-10 and am currently working on
my brakes as well as they don't deliver the braking power I would like to
see. While picking some Solectria E-10 owners brain, I found out that my
normal Gast vacuum pump will not deliver enough vacuum for the big brake
booster. Solectria has four! vacuum pumps and a relatively huge vacuum
reservoir.
Just hook your pump (via reservoir) to the booster and try it out. I'd
like to hear your results.
Michaela
> Im about to try and install the vacuum pump i bought from Randy at
> canev.com but my 1997 S10 has ABS system hooked to it. There are two
> tubes coming from the resevior to the ABS and three coming back out of
> hte ABS system so not sure what to do here. Or is it best to just hook
> up the vaccuum pump and just disconnect the power to the ABS and leave
> it in place.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Cwarman
>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton said:
> There are commercial products for this purpose, such as the one
> described at the huge URL below:
>
> <http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3E
> prd_id=845524441889011&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374303517494&FOLDER%3C
> %3EbrowsePath=1408474396669671&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396669671&AS
> SORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1129836109917>
>
> ...
>
> <http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3E
> prd_id=845524441889023&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374303517494&FOLDER%3C
> %3EbrowsePath=1408474396669671&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396669671&AS
> SORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1129836196518>
These URLs apparently depend on an established session with your browser
-- for me, they just bring up a page asking for a canadian postal code.
Can you provide an alternative description, or manufacturer and part
number?
--chris
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--- Begin Message ---
I was just listening to Radio 4, which had a programme about Reva and
a discussion of electric vehicles and their markets. Quite good, well
worth a listen.
The program is available from this link for the next week only:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/index.shtml
[..]
DC RIDER
What does it take to get an electric car off the ground? Lots of
effort and endless patience, explains California-based inventor Lon
Bell. He talks to Peter Day about his vision of transforming city life
with the introduction of a new breed of electric vehicle. The
all-electric, battery-powered electric car that Lon Bell designed is
called the G-Wiz, and is now available in the UK.
INTERVIEWEES:
Keith Johnston
Managing Director, GoinGreen
Mark Duvall and Robert Graham
Electric Power Research Institute, Palo Alto, California.
Lon Bell
Vice-Chairman, REVA Electric Car Company, Bangalore, India.
Dr John Wormald
Managing Partner, Autopolis
[..]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent programme on EVs being brodcast now.
BBC Radio 4; In Business
Listen again, or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/inbusiness/index.shtml
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> These URLs apparently depend on an established session with
> your browser -- for me, they just bring up a page asking for
> a canadian postal code. Can you provide an alternative
> description, or manufacturer and part number?
No, but I can provide you with a Canadian postal code: V3J1R1. ;^>
Once in the Canadian Tire site, search on "winter automotive". The
3-page list of results will include "Little Buddy Interior Car Warmer",
"Sno-Off Windshield Protection", and "Snowshield Warrier". Canadian
Tire is something like the Canadian equivalent to JC Whitney.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> . I add a package of extreme pressure lube to accommodate the
> sliding contact between the ring and pinion. > >
John, What kind of extreme preasure lube do you use?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rush,
Go to a Heating and Plumbing Supply store and look thru there HoneyWell themo
sensor systems.
I am using one HoneyWell Thermo Limit Switch with a sensor that inserts into a
well into the fluid you want to control. This Limit Switch has a temperature
adjustment with differential adjustments and a 2 position NO and NC switch. I
used the switch to control a solid state relay which than turns on or off any
device you want.
HoneyWell also makes a pyro flame detection that when heated, generates a small
amount of current. I attach one of these to the Zilla heat sink base and go to
a standard Sterwart Warner hot water gage. Using a separate temperature sender
to my multimeter, I calibrated this sensor with resistor so the Dash Gage will
match the test meter gage.
Therefore you could used several of these sensors going thru a selector switch
to the meter. You may have to calibrated each sensor with its own resistor or
you may need only one resister between the switch and indicator.
I think I bought a pyro flame sensor with the highest current output. Take
your multimeter with you and you can test current output. You can get some of
them generate a voltage from the heat from you fingers.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rush<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla Cooling
That is exactly what I am going to do on my S-10 conversion. I'm in AZ so
keeping cool is always a problem. I'm keeping the stock radiator and have a
March 809HS pump (~5 gal/min). I plan to put some temp sensors at strategic
points and then have the pump turn on as needed.
The specs on the Zilla says it will maintain full motor current up to 55 C
(~135 F) and that the cooling system should be designed to maintain the water
temp at 5 C above ambient. I didn't do the math but that seems to me that in
the summer time the pump will be on all the time, does that sound right?
So this brings me to a question - What kind of temp sensors can I get? I want
to attach one to the Zilla housing, the DC/DC housing and my battery pack. I
will also read the water temp, for that I can get an inline hot water gauge.
But for the 3 other components, I don't want 3 more gauges. Is there a cheap
sensor that I can use that will hook to a 3 way switch so that I can switch to
the desired component to read the temp?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org<http://www.ironandwood.org/>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwarman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: Zilla Cooling
> Has anyone here just hooked up the Ice's radiator and used this to cool
> the Zilla ? Run a 12vlt fuel pump on the bottom of the radiator to push
> the water/antifreeze thru the Zilla ?
>
> Im considering this but wanted to make sure this will work ok.. or thoughts
>
> CWarman
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
You are not reading the curves correctly.
Power = RPM * Torque
You can NOT keep torque and RPM constant and vary power. One, or the
other, or both must vary.
But the motor could have optimal torque/RPM in a relatively
steady-state, and the power to the _wheels_ could be changed with the
gears, right?
My admittedly naive reading of the torque/RPM charts tells me I would
get the best efficiency from my AC55 by shooting for a set of gears that
let me keep the motor in its sweet spot or range. I don't know the gear
ratios for my 95 Camaro yet, so I'll quote Robert (I love the Celica),
and use 3000 RPM motor speed (which is close to the ICE's spot too)--
Toyota Celica Gear Ratios
Manual Transmission
Differential Ratio 4.176
GT (US Spec.)
Final WheelRPM SpeedMPH
1st 3.285 13.71 219 15.5
2nd 1.960 8.18 367 26.0
3rd 1.322 5.52 543 38.5
4th 1.028 4.29 699 49.5
5th 0.820 3.42 877 62.0
Wheel Size 205/55 R 15 (circumference = 75 in - 845 rev/mile)
So the tires are moving at 845 RPM @ 60 mph
With a gearbox, then (and clutch), you can stay in (or near) the motor's
sweet spot, and drive much like to original ICE. Or, you could get lazy
(on the freeway on-ramp), get to 2nd or 3rd and punch the RPM (triple
the MPH figures to see theoretical Celica top speed with an AC-55
screaming 9000 RPM-- 186 MPH in 5th:0)(Oh, okay, stay within the mfr's
limits and keep to <8K. And try to keep the Celica under 100 MPH,
because my 89 ICE Celica nearly fell apart at 95).
The chart for the AC-55 makes me look askance at ever pushing it to 6K--
the efficiency drop reminds me of a black-diamond slope I went down the
very first time I tried skiing (and, I went down, I tell ya).
Why have so many people gone clutchless? Do the efficiency gains at the
motor not pay for the clutch weight? Do DC motors not have a sweet spot?
Regards,
Jim
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Meta Bus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > You are not reading the curves correctly.
> > Power = RPM * Torque
> > You can NOT keep torque and RPM constant and vary power.
> > One, or the other, or both must vary.
>
> But the motor could have optimal torque/RPM in a relatively
> steady-state, and the power to the _wheels_ could be changed with the
> gears, right?
No, not unless you have significant losses from one gear to another ;^>
Power out = Power in - losses.
If the motor operating point (torque/RPM) remains unchanged, then the
power in is unchanged. Changing the gear will allow the torque/RPM at
the wheel to differ from that at the motor, but power out remains
essentially unchanged. As the gearing reduces RPM, torque at the wheel
increases; power remains constant.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
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Hi All
I realised that I have another hole in my knowlege where I have been
assuming something. Awake in the middle of the night, set off on a train of
thought by something completely unrelated and trying to dredge up from more
than 20 years ago some AC theory to define the answer (no success, I only
just scraped a pass mark even then).
For example, a 10kW 2-pole motor at will run at 3000RPM from 50Hz. Double
the voltage and frequency will make it run at 6000RPM with 20kW available.
If that motor were replaced (or rewound) by an identical motor except being
4-pole instead of two-pole then when run from 50Hz will run at 1500RPM, but
how many kW?
I have always assumed (as much as I have ever thought of it) that it would
still be able to deliver 10kW since there are twice as many poles
generating torque, so there would be twice the torque at half the RPM for
the same kW.
So if this thinking is correct, then for vehicle converters an 8-pole motor
would be better than a 2- or 4- pole motor since several multiples of the
base RPM is not too high for the gearbox input.
next example:
2 pole 10kW/50Hz motor at 4x is 12000 RPM with 40kW available
4-pole 10kW/50Hz motor at 8x is 12000 RPM with 80kW available
8-pole 10kW/50Hz motor at 16x is 12000 RPM with 160kW available
So for about the same mass, but needing a higher frequency inverter we can
get more kW.
Or am I missing something?
Regards
James
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Not sure how yours is made, but you need to connect right at the vacuum
booster. Some of those lines you are seeing might be the sensor lines from the
wheels? If so the would go to the ABS unit, not the vaccum source. There are
also some left-over hoses on most cars for the fuel tank and purge cannisters.
Those can just be cut off, but you need to track them down and see where they
go. There will also be a vacuum line for your a/c vent controller somewhere you
will need to connect. The ABS unit should take care of itself. I just made a
main connector block from aluminum (seen on my weblog) and everything works
fine. The ABS system took care of itself.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
>
> From: Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/10/20 Thu AM 11:21:29 EST
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Vacuum Pump / ABS
>
> Im about to try and install the vacuum pump i bought from Randy at
> canev.com but my 1997 S10 has ABS system hooked to it. There are two
> tubes coming from the resevior to the ABS and three coming back out of
> hte ABS system so not sure what to do here. Or is it best to just hook
> up the vaccuum pump and just disconnect the power to the ABS and leave
> it in place.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Cwarman
>
> >
>
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Skip the first half of this post if math bores you.
Let's say you design for 0-50C (32-122F).
The everage thermal expansion coefficient over that range (roughly):
Water = 400 parts per million per degree C (not including coolant)
If your coolant volume is contained 1/4 by Aluminum and 3/4 by
plastic tubing, overall weighted avg would be
Aluminum = 25 PPM
Plastic tubing (nitrile, polyurethane, Tygon) = 100-200 PPM
Container average = 120 plus or minus
The net differential expansion rate is then roughly
400-120 = 280 PPM per degree C.
If your coolant volume is equivalent to 10 feet of 3/8" tubing,
that's about 13 cubic inches (Zilla, small trans cooling radiator,
pump, not including reservoir).
Obviously I've made huge assumptions here but for discussion...
The total net amount of expansion for this system is then
13 x .000280 x 50 = .18 cubic inches. Functionally, it's less than
that because you fill the system at some temp in the middle of the 0-
50 range (so +/- .09 in^3 if you fill at 25C).
That may not sound like much, but it would take quite a bit of
pressure to expand normal ruggedish tubing by that amount. But you
don't need much of a reservoir for expansion alone. The fluid in the
reservoir itself will demand as much expansion room as the rest of
the system.
Yes, some evaporation will take place thru the low-density plastic
tubing (visible over several months). You could use metal tubing
(i.e. brake lines) keeping in mind you'll need much more expansion
volume. Assuming your system is somehow vented to atmospheric
pressure to keep from bursting, more evaporation will occur thru the
vent.
Therfore you'll need to top up occasionally, and a reservoir (of
some kind, at the highest point in the system) is probably the most
foolproof way to do that.
Now here's another idea I'd like to try:
Have you ever seen that ribbed flexible tubing (like vacuum cleaner
hose only smaller)? That stuff stretches pretty easily in the length
and MIGHT work to accommodate expansion/contraction of a minimalist
cooling system. A guy could put a loop of that in the flow path
and... Shucks, calibrate the length of that and you've got yourself
a coolant temperature gauge! Or barometric pressure gauge! Or just
add a microswitch for an idiot light if it gets too short from
evaporation. Must be time for me to shut up.
- GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
[snip]
> >> Can
> >> anyone comment on the amount of expansion that one could expect
to see
> >> in the extreme cases?
> >
> > Depends on your coolant, but for example water has density 0.9999
> > at 1°C and 0.9588 at 99°C, so it'll expand by up to 4% or so over
> > that range.
>
> Wouldn't that be offset by the expansion of the hoses/metal
tubes/tanks
> that the hot water is running through?
>
> > Outside that range, you don't want to be using water
> > anyway :-).
> >
> > -----sharks
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I stand corrected but if you looked at the pics of this LE Car it is
competition for Blue Meanie's Cherriness. What can I say. I like and am
impressed by stock cheery cars.....
http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/car/104408185.html Here are a couple of R5's
free for the towing. I'd bet they'd make good competition for Blue Meanie.
LR....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: Why Le Car makes a great EV
Hello to All,
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
49mpg says it all.
No it doesn't. First off, you're taking the seller's word for that 49 mpg.
From what I'm reading, this seller's word isn't reliable, either. He says,
"*/Fuel efficiency is even superior to many Hybrid cars." /*Really? Since
he obviously isn't using the EPA figures and instead is using 'his'
mileage number of 49, let's compare that to 'my' Honda Insight, one of
those many hybrids he compares to....I get up to 92 mpg over long
distances in my Insight when slowing down to 57-62 mph, nearly double his
mileage! Driving without 'trying' for the best mileage, my Insight
delivers 65-68 mpg in the city and about 75-80 mpg on the freeway. Friends
of mine who own 4 passenger Priuses get up to 70 mpg on the highway when
trying, and about 55 when just driving...again, better than his 'superior
49 mpg'. In fact, if my Insight were to ever dip that low in mpg, I'd have
to consider what repairs were needed to fix the problem! The hybrids while
trouncing this Renault's touted high mpg, also will run circles around
this poky Le Car, too. The Le Car was rated 0-60 in nearly 19
seconds...the new Prius does it in 10, as does the Insight. About the only
hybrid he can claim superior mileage over, might be the new breed of
hybrid SUVs....that's about it!
If my memory serves me correctly, the Le Car was rated at around 30 mpg
when it was available new, not 49 mpg. That 30 mpg was also rated at the
current 55 mph speed limit for the highway rating. A Datsun 1200 from 7-9
years earlier, when the speed limit used for the highway rating was a much
higher 70 mph, was rated at 35 mph at that speed. Slowing a 1200 down to
55 mph resulted in real life mpg figures of 52 mpg, but unlike the Le Car
that couldn't even reach 90 mph (due to its anemic engine), the 1200 was
road tested at 97 mph top speed....that's a huge difference.
Sorry to base it that way but real mpg doesn't lie. It always translates
into longer range. That's usually my criteria in selecting an EV.
Not true. Sorry Lawrence. Let's see...the new V6 Hybrid Accord gets 31 mpg
@55 mph, so that's about the same as the Le Car's 30 EPA rating. The
Accord however, is twice the size, and nearly twice as heavy at around
3100 lbs. You think a converted new Accord could match the miles per
charge of a converted little Le Car? Based on your criteria of using 'real
mpg' it should be able to, but in reality, there's no way the larger, far
heavier Accord could ever come close to going as far on a charge as a
little Le Car.
Here's the scoop on the Le Car.....contrary to the seller's story, this
car was a sales flop in the USA. People found it homely, the dealer
network behind it sucked, parts were very hard to get, and it was plain
weird with its 3 bolt wheels, frumpy styling, and sluggish, unacceptable
performance. The Japanese econoboxes routinely trounced it in all
categories, from EPA fuel mileage to 0-60, to top speed, to reliability.
On the other hand.....having been directly involved with too many Le Car
conversions to list here, there 'are' some highly redeemable qualities to
admire. That same 'frumpy' styling does look unique on today's roads. The
body structure is impressive and very durable. It has an unusually
l-o-n-g- wheel base for such a compact car, thus it rides super smooth and
takes bumps in stride. It has four wheel torsion bar suspension that is
super easy to adjust for weight changes due to heavy batteries. The part I
like the best....it is a front-mid engine design, where an interior
console bulge allows the engine to sit 'behind' the transaxle in a more
midship location.
There was a super rad version of the Le Car, the R5 Turbo! Same basic
body, but with HUGE changes, that included the engine sitting behind the
driver, monster rear wheel flares under which were stuffed fat rear tires,
racing brakes, killer suspension, etc. It was a factory hot rod for the
period, and they are very collectible these days.
Conclusion....the Le Car got its 30 mpg at the cost of horrible
performance that was largely unacceptable for American drivers. It's
mileage wasn't anything to brag about compared to other economy cars, and
in fact, was worse than most of them. It was an unpopular car, it's parts
are near to impossible to find today, just like when the car was still
new, and it doesn't make any better conversion than would a Civic, a
Datsun, or any other smaller compact type car.
The fact that US Electricar chose the Le Car as its base vehicle to
convert and sell to the general public as an EV was amazing! Let's see,
how do we go about getting the public to accept an electric car?
OK...first, let's base our electric car on the country's most unpopular
small car, the Renault Le Car! Yeah, that's a great idea, let's start
behind the curve with a car that's already a hard sell. Now, let's put
nearly 1000 lbs. of low performance wet cell batteries in it, at a lowly
48V, and to make the car even more miserable, let's equip it with a
growling, moaning SCR based controller. If the stock gas powered car was a
slug at 1900 lbs. with its under-powered 4 banger, it should really be a
performance champ weighing 1000 lbs. more with 20 hp! (batteries sagged
to 40V with a 500 amp controller).
What were they thinking?
All this said, Le Cars can and have made nice conversions for many. I had
a lot of fun co-designing and building the bright yellow 192V Optima
powered 'Screaming Yellow Zonker' Le Car still listed in the EV Photo
Album. Knowing it was an underdog vehicle, we wanted to see how far we
could take it towards being a pocket rocket type vehicle. Another fun Le
Car conversion I had my hand in, was the late Dick Finley's 'Rocket
Renault'. I still have fond memories of the then 77 year old youngster
blistering the front tires as he would blow away V8 machines in the stop
light drag races he'd get into on 82nd Street! People talked about that
crazy old man in his sleeper electric car that roasted its tires....fun
memories! What a blow to a young man's virility it was, to get blown off
by a grey haired senior citizen in a frumpy battery powered Le Car!
See Ya.....John Wayland
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