EV Digest 4839
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Honda Fuel Cell Concept with Home H2 Refueling
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: blower specs for motor cooling
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Home at last!! Re: Sunrise Report. Or..... " Where's Jerry?"
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens - torque calculation
by "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nick?=" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: blower specs for motor cooling
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens - torque calculation
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AC motors - effect of number of poles
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) new EV club starting
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) PFC or 'Baby' Charger...
by Robb Zuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Emeter Test
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) clutchless vw
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) On getting back the EV grin
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: can a plane be an electric vehicle (at least a little bit)?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: charger woes, obsolete parts
by "Emmerick, Craig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens - torque calculation
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: motor selection - AC55 vs Siemens - torque calculation
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: clutchless vw
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: charger woes, obsolete parts
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Used UPS battery questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fowler wrote:
> I wonder how much the typical EV commuter has reduced their energy bill
> compared to the ICE days?
This is something I think about a lot anymore.
Considering a "fuel cell" is basically a battery, everyone on this
list could replace their battery pack with a hydrogen fuel cell and
tank.
Right now with batteries we have weight, a certain amount of range,
recharge times, and pack replacement after an amount of time or use.
The issues and reality of the hydrogen fuel cell:
Converting the car to electric is no problem. Motor and controller
basically. Used to, I thought getting the hydrogen was the problem.
Then I thought storing it was a problem. Now neither of those is
really the case. It's getting a decent size low cost fuel cell. The
problem is the platinum in them(hence the price).
A person could buy a hydrogen generator. Consider this the battery
charger except this costs in the several thousand dollar range:
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&q=hydrogen%20generator&sa=N&tab=wf
Not only do you need the hydrogen generator, you need a storage
tank(in addition to the one in the car). You also need a pump.
What's the price on a 10,000 PSI pump anyways?
How about the price on those tanks(need two)?
http://www.lincolncomposites.com/main.html
I wonder what the upper limit on output is with a fuel cell?
http://www.ballard.com/be_a_customer/transportation/fuel_cell_modules/mark_902
This part makes me laugh "300 kW for transit bus applications". And
our little Zilla is "640 kW" no?
Now if we just had some low cost lithium batteries to lighten the load
and extend the range... How about those charge times though?
Does lithium recharge faster then lead? Will the price be competitive
with lead this year or next?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know where I could get a cover for a 9" and even a 6.7" to hook a
blower up to? I remember seeing a few on some EV's up north but I have been
unable to locate one online not really knowing what I'm looking for.
My S-15 gets hot in superhot texas in alot of stop and go and I expect my
motorcycle to also with it's 6.7" motor.
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Amatek-rotron fans"
That's Ametek-Rotron :-)
Which model are you using?
We have lots of 12Vdc models.
Using a blower is definately the proper method.
Shaft mounted fans on EV motors don't make much sense,
you need maximum airflow for low high torque
acceleration, and the motor doesn't get cool when you
pull up to the stoplight. The blower can be
controlled with a thermal device or you can just run
it full speed for maximum cooling. You don't have
this option with
a shaft mounted fan. Don't pay much attention to CFM
if you don't know how many inches of water (pressure)
it was measured at. A blower delivers good CFM at
higher pressures needed to push air through an
enclosed motor. You can see various curves for CFM
and pressure
at www.ametektmd.com. I think the 5.7" blowers are
ideal for cooling on a 9" motor. Some of my new BLDC
internal control blowers work the best, but I doubt
they are on the website. These work at 12Vdc up to
48Vdc. I had two high power blowers on my Dodge TEVan
running off of 13.8Vdc. This made a 10 mile overheat
of the traction motor turn into a 40 mile commute
without heat problems. The high airflow also
eliminated arc-over problems caused by brush dust
buildup. The TEVan surged at 65 MPH due to brush
dust.
With the blowers installed this was never a problem.
Rod
--- Jimmy Argon wrote:
> When selecting a fan or blower it should be capable
> of
> sustaining a back pressure of at least .5 inches of
> water. Many blowers can move a lot of air but they
> have a very low capability of pressurization. I use
> two Amatek-rotron fans. These fans run at 4000 rpm,
>
> If lucky you can find a 28vdc in surplus store, 12
> vdc
> are rare.
> Jimmy
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > The ADC 9" that Jim Husted is chopping down for
> > Karmann Eclectric could be set up with either the
> > internal fan or an external blower. I'm inclined
> > towards the blower for maximum motor
> responsiveness
> > and maintaining fan efficiency at high motor rpms,
> > but don't have any numbers on how much air the
> stock
> > fan moves. Any suggestions on specs for an
> external
> > motor cooling fan? I plan to run a Z1K-EHV, and
> the
> > BB600 nicads should be able to keep it in current
> > limit for a good hot time...
> > TIA,
> > Jay Donnaway
> > www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry an' All;
I can taker a breath, again. Sorta holding it after ya left<g> I don't
know if ya noticed the 238000 on the speedo odometer. Tat was there when I
GOT the car, saving it's life from the junkyard!Several years later ,two of
them my kid used it for his daily driver at UCONN, a 55 mile flight from
here. He did love it a little, treating it to new tires and glow plugs. I
replaced the battery last year, so it would start, cheerfully, again.No
OTHER work was or ever was done on the engine. Rear shocks petrifyed a few
years ago. I replaced them with newer, not NEW<g>! Have junked Rabbits over
the years and had some new old stock parts. Kid felt comfortable with the
car, often going from CT to Richmond VA to see old HS buddies.
I'm sure glad to see that it has a loving home and will help the "Cause"
What better use for a faithful old car??Keeping with the Renault thread of
late how many gas Renaults woulda done that FLA flight, after clocking
probably close to 300k miles, the odo meter was busted when I got the
car!?Hell, the owners manual is still in the glove tment, EVen!Not to
mention towing a trailer. The Rabbit was a worthy successer to the old
Beatle, and HEAT even! So I say that a decent Rabbit will be a good ., or
better conversion than any Renault.Maybe not as lite as a 1200 Datsun, but
more common , nowadaze.
Watching with more concern the Wilma hurricane. It COULD swoop northeast
in it's flight , right yur way! Damn! Must be global warming?What will they
do when they use up the alfabet? Start anew with Alice or Andrew?THIS year?
Geeeesh! Ya hafta build cement bunkers in FLA to live in.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:58 PM
Subject: Home at last!! Re: Sunrise Report. Or..... " Where's Jerry?"
> Hi Bob and All,
> Nice report Bob!!
> I made it home this afternoon with the Rabbit and
the Sunrise without any problems, unlike my trip up there. Driving a MC in
the rain 1100 miles pulling a fair size trailer was no fun, especially when
it broke down in tha armpit of the US, Newark!! But only a few miles from
Penn Station so got to ride the Accela to Bob's place, very cool, soft and
much better than riding a MC pulling a trailer in the cold rain !! Bob was a
fantastic host and I learned a lot there. He donated the Rabbit to the cause
which will and already has come in handy, Thanks Bob !! Got 33mpg pulling
the trailer. Will switch it over to use veg oil and biodiesel shortly. Got
to meet Bill Glickman which was cool and interesting.
> Seeing the finished Sunrise made me very happy as it
looks so much better in person than the pics show it!! While it will take a
lot of work to get going, it will be worth it. First I'll have to simplify
the mold work as you can tell and engineer designed it, not someone who had
to build it !! I'll cut the man/hrs in 1/2 at least to build it.
> I was surprised just how wide and roomy it was as
rather exotic looks, should be able to upscale it nicely for a better price.
I had thought it was small but that is not the case at all. Diffinently EV-1
owners material that will fit in with expensive cars so probably start off
with Ni-cad batts and go to Li-ions as they become viable. Hopefully a
reasonable priced AC motor, controller will be available by then..
> But first I have to get the Freedom EV going as it's
going to take more money to do than I had thought. Luckily there is good
profit in the Freedom EV so I can afford to do the Sunrise.
> We stopped at Azure and they have some AC motors for
sale cheaply, I'll find out just what they are if anyone is interested but
mostly the Force sizes and bigger. They had an Humvee and several other
larger commercial trucks they were converting, quite interesting.
> Now just need to keep an eye on Hurricane Wilma to
see if I have to get out of Dodge !!
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
> Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Sunrise Fans;
>
> A Update for the Jerry's trip to CT. Jerry "arrived" in the NYC area on
> Friday, within view of the Enpire State Building in NYC the poor old
Suzuki
> bike sed "I'm All Done" He glided into a Cumins Engine service center, on
> Howard Ave in Newark, NY, only about 110 miles to go. The Good Folks there
> took pity on him, after all it WAS raining off and on, saw his FLA tags
and
> let him stash the rig inside the fenced off area for the weakend.It had
been
> RAINING on the Least Coast for .oh, about `10 daze or MORE!
>
> Jerry hopped on a train, guy there was nice enough to run him over to the
> train station, he called me from Penn Station, deep in Amtrak Land. "
Well.,
> I sez , go talk to the train folks there, find one to New Haven, I'll come
> down and collect ya" Two hours later Jerry arrives, and we FINALLY meet in
> real time. With the Newark place closed for the weakend, retreaval of the
> bike and trailer was out til monday. So Jerry could chill out here rest up
> for the next weels adventure! Well, no rest for the weary! called up the
> folks at Solectria/Asure and it was OK to come up and check out the
chassis
> moulds and pick up my Force motor that went with the car I had trailered
> home with the Sunrise body a few weaks ago.With many windows busted out
the
> Force has been living in my garage safe and dry. or til I find a Metro
doner
> car for a drivers door rear deck and drivers side window, cute little car!
> Needs a heap of lovin' though!
>
> Gave James Worden a shout on the fone, OK to come over and meet a
> Sunrise on the hoof. Wanted to get Jerry a "After" look on what it CAN be,
> as James has a working , completed Sunrise. The usual; Sunrise, Jerry
Liked,
> woulda been the understatement of the week EVerybody that sees a finished
> one, likes it!! Jerry and James hit it off jusy great. In that James has
> passed the Grail to us, I'm deeply humbled. Ball's in OUR court, now.
>
> The Damn rain dodn't dampin our spirit,as we shoved off for CT, Sun came
> out, as we prius'ed home. an oman? Sunday was rest up, prep the 81
Diseasel
> Rabbit for it's Next Life, and secred duty to get Jerry and the trailered
> Sunrise home. We Lifted the body off the chassis, to hose leaves mice
nests
> ,etc out, off, the chassis. Amazingly light, for the 2 of us it was a bit
> of a grunt to pick up, but you couldn't do that with any metel carbody!
> Jerry's little trailer was just right, damn well ought to as the Suzuki
gave
> it's life, getting it here!
>
> Oh yeah, went down to Newark with my trusty rusty Ford Econoline 78 van,
> collected the bike inside, STILL room, in front of a palot of used nicads,
> Hitched up the trailer and came home, unEVentfully. Monday mourning came
to
> beautiful SUNNY skies, Picture perfect , CT's nicest cool dry crisp
weather.
> Off to the DMV, morning wasted but we DID get a temp tag for the Bunny,
> hooked up a trailer hitch and wired the trailer for lites, yada yada yada,
> checked out stuff on Rabbit, oil change, new Fuel filter, fresh
antifreeze.
> Bill Glickman stopped off after work, to meet Jerry an' the Sunrise.
>
> FINALLY Jerry was ready, stuff packed aboard the Rabbit, he sailed about
> 5pm, late enough to miss, hopefully, the rush hour in NYC traffic. By now
he
> oughta be in the Carolinas? If he rattles along at about 55-60MPH and
keeps
> moving, get back to the hurricane state just in time for ANOTHER one!!
> Havent checked the weather channel this AM.
>
> Old faithful Rabbit haz a loving home, at last, donated to the EV 'cause"
> Hell! Jerry needs something ,more substantial to tow moulds and Freedom
> stuff around in FLA! The Suzuki has been left here. I think it haz a hole
in
> the piston? It cranks with almost no compression, but no rod through the
> block/crankcase. Guess I could bury it away for the History Channel's
story
> on HOW the Freedom- got- started early daze when Deternination and guts
were
> on the line. Heres an example of determened, demented? EVers went through.
> Yes trailer hitch is still there!!A dead motorcycle is a damn BULKY thing
to
> handle, he sure didn't need MORE stuff to schleppe home!
>
> OK Jerry, if ya see this on a Rest Stop at a library, give us a shout,
> how are ya doing?Or no news is good news? Rabbits going along fine?
>
> Hoping for a Post tomorrow from the Sunshine State, Tampa, home base.So
> fans, keep yur fingers crossed!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hp = torque * RPM / 5252
torque is in ft-lbs
http://www.revsearch.com/dynamometer/torque_vs_horsepower.html
Nick
> How do I convert that to torque?
>
> Torque = power / rpm = 13kw/ 3000rpm = ?.
>
> I need help with the units.
> -Robert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
These BLDCs look interesting, it looks like They have
a better selection. EG7G Rotron gave me 2 C011067
12vdc fans back in 2003. They were just merging with
Ametek and it was either these fans or 1 c-011339
blower. They told me these were the only 12v they had
at the time and I needed them quick. I use a plenum
and can store beverages in it if necessary - hic.
Jimmy
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Amatek-rotron fans"
> That's Ametek-Rotron :-)
> Which model are you using?
> We have lots of 12Vdc models.
> Using a blower is definately the proper method.
> Shaft mounted fans on EV motors don't make much
> sense,
> you need maximum airflow for low high torque
> acceleration, and the motor doesn't get cool when
> you
> pull up to the stoplight. The blower can be
> controlled with a thermal device or you can just run
> it full speed for maximum cooling. You don't have
> this option with
> a shaft mounted fan. Don't pay much attention to
> CFM
> if you don't know how many inches of water
> (pressure)
> it was measured at. A blower delivers good CFM at
> higher pressures needed to push air through an
> enclosed motor. You can see various curves for CFM
> and pressure
> at www.ametektmd.com. I think the 5.7" blowers are
> ideal for cooling on a 9" motor. Some of my new
> BLDC
> internal control blowers work the best, but I doubt
> they are on the website. These work at 12Vdc up to
> 48Vdc. I had two high power blowers on my Dodge
> TEVan
> running off of 13.8Vdc. This made a 10 mile
> overheat
> of the traction motor turn into a 40 mile commute
> without heat problems. The high airflow also
> eliminated arc-over problems caused by brush dust
> buildup. The TEVan surged at 65 MPH due to brush
> dust.
> With the blowers installed this was never a problem.
> Rod
>
> --- Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > When selecting a fan or blower it should be
> capable
> > of
> > sustaining a back pressure of at least .5 inches
> of
> > water. Many blowers can move a lot of air but
> they
> > have a very low capability of pressurization. I
> use
> > two Amatek-rotron fans. These fans run at 4000
> rpm,
> >
> > If lucky you can find a 28vdc in surplus store, 12
> > vdc
> > are rare.
> > Jimmy
> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > The ADC 9" that Jim Husted is chopping down for
> > > Karmann Eclectric could be set up with either
> the
> > > internal fan or an external blower. I'm
> inclined
> > > towards the blower for maximum motor
> > responsiveness
> > > and maintaining fan efficiency at high motor
> rpms,
> > > but don't have any numbers on how much air the
> > stock
> > > fan moves. Any suggestions on specs for an
> > external
> > > motor cooling fan? I plan to run a Z1K-EHV, and
> > the
> > > BB600 nicads should be able to keep it in
> current
> > > limit for a good hot time...
> > > TIA,
> > > Jay Donnaway
> > > www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick wrote:
> hp = torque * RPM / 5252
This is in the USA. Everywhere else it's just
torque*rev per second, period. No need to memorize other numbers.
Torque is N*m
Power is Watts
Shaft speed is 2(pi)rad/sec.
All standardized SI units. Can't get simpler than that.
torque is in ft-lbs
Is is common foot or US survey foot?
Is this avoirdupois pound or troy pound?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You don't miss much, except realize that 8 pole motor
running at the same RPM as 2 pole one will require 4x
frequency and *4x voltage* to push the same current in
(since your back EMF is 4x as well). Standard 308V motor will have
to be re-wound for 1,232V if you want 4x power out of the
system.
Think of it power wise, assuming 100% efficiency for simplicity,
if you feed in 100kW, you get 100kW out. If all you do is
double (quadruple, etc) amount of poles, you still get same 100kW,
no matter what the frequency is.
So since power is torque*speed, with 8 poles your speed is 4x less than
with 2 poles. So the torque is 4x more, to provide the same
power.
Now, if you want to get 4x power you either raise torque
or speed. To raise torque you need 4x current, only possible
if you raise voltage 4x as well to overcome 4x of back EMF.
To raise speed you need 4x frequency, but the voltage
cannot stay the same, they have to change together.
Bottom line - to get 4x power from the same setup, you must
provide 4x power in (excluding losses). Power in is
volts in * amps in. Note, frequency is not a factor here.
But the frequency demand dictates how you should raise volts.
So 4x volts in will yield 4x input power, and thus 4x output power.
Victor
James Massey wrote:
Hi All
I realised that I have another hole in my knowlege where I have been
assuming something. Awake in the middle of the night, set off on a train
of thought by something completely unrelated and trying to dredge up
from more than 20 years ago some AC theory to define the answer (no
success, I only just scraped a pass mark even then).
For example, a 10kW 2-pole motor at will run at 3000RPM from 50Hz.
Double the voltage and frequency will make it run at 6000RPM with 20kW
available.
If that motor were replaced (or rewound) by an identical motor except
being 4-pole instead of two-pole then when run from 50Hz will run at
1500RPM, but how many kW?
I have always assumed (as much as I have ever thought of it) that it
would still be able to deliver 10kW since there are twice as many poles
generating torque, so there would be twice the torque at half the RPM
for the same kW.
So if this thinking is correct, then for vehicle converters an 8-pole
motor would be better than a 2- or 4- pole motor since several multiples
of the base RPM is not too high for the gearbox input.
next example:
2 pole 10kW/50Hz motor at 4x is 12000 RPM with 40kW available
4-pole 10kW/50Hz motor at 8x is 12000 RPM with 80kW available
8-pole 10kW/50Hz motor at 16x is 12000 RPM with 160kW available
So for about the same mass, but needing a higher frequency inverter we
can get more kW.
Or am I missing something?
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This Saturday Oct 22 at 9 am we are having our first meeting of the Tucson EV
club. We have about 8 people interested in joining and building thier own car.
Anyone in the area that wants to check us out , drop me a line.
John Barnes
Tucson, AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I planned to get a PFC-30 so I could charge my T-105 pack at closer to the C/5
rate than with little chargers... Now I'm reassessing. My main priority is
maximizing battery lifespan -- Charging speed, efficiency and power factor
don't matter as much to me. Somehow I got it into my head that a 35+ Amp bulk
charge would be healthier for my T-105 pack than the measly 10-12 Amps I get
with my Bad Boys or other little charger. Now I'm not sure why I thought
that... I've read that slow charging is best and I've read that some batteries
like a C/5 kick. I've been using and studying lead-acid batteries for 15 years
now and I still get confused sometimes :)
What is true for Trojan wet cells... Is a 35 Amp bulk charge better than a 12
Amp bulk charge? Does it make any significant difference? I'm assuming that
whatever charger I get will have a smart finishing charge so that at least will
be an improvement on my Bad Boy mistakes.
Thanks for any insight,
Robb
1980 Electravan Flatdeck
soon to graduate from Bad Boy to somethingorother
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi
I want to test my emeter but my pack is not set up, so I can test it by just
hooking up to a 12 v and follow the instructions as per the manual for PV
hookup.
1) Black from terminal 1 to load side, big bolt, of shunt
2) Green (part of twisted pair) from terminal 2 to load side, small screw, of
shunt.
3) Orange (part of twisted pair) from terminal 3 to small screw on Battery side
of shunt
4) Blue wire from terminal 4 thru 2 amp fuse (within 7" of battery) to battery
pos.
5) Red wire from terminal 5 thru 2 amp fuse (within 7" of battery) to batter
neg.
After all wiring is complete, then I insert blue wire (-) fuse and then red
wire (+) fuse.
To disconnect I do the reverse.
I would assume that if the light/battery bar and quick reference volts, amps,
amphrs, and time light up, then all the advanced functions work also.
Since I am not going to pull any load, all I want to do is test the emeter, I
can use small gauge wire, 10 or 12.
Sorry to ask this but I want to make sure the connection sequence is correct so
I don't blow the emeter.
So when I go to hook this up on my EV with the battery pack I can make a
connector with the twisted pair, prescaler and dc/dc converter included in the
connector, connect them and then put in the fuses. I think Joe Smalley said
that he does this with several cars he monitors.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this added to the mass of oil? My ev uses the same oil for the gears
as well as the differential.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Friday, 21 October 2005 10:49 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Low loss lubricant for EV gearbox
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:03:48 -0400, "David"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>
>> . I add a package of extreme pressure lube to accommodate the
>> sliding contact between the ring and pinion. > >
>
>
>John, What kind of extreme preasure lube do you use?
>
I used the GM product for their limited slip differentials. It came
in a little squeeze tube. I understand it can be had now from places
like NAPA.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend wants me to build her a VW bug conversion. Problem is she has one leg
in a brace and can't use the clutch. I know she could go clutchless and put
into gear before taking off but I was wondering if a set up like my Citicar
would work on a VW? Using contactors for forward and reverse? Any thoughts
would be welcomed.
John in Tucson.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got the message from Blue Sky that they will have a Ranger ready for
me! I was hoping for a NiMH but I'm getting a Lead-acid, so I hope it can make
near their quoted 52mi range to handle my commute.
This brings up another issue: if the Ranger can handle commute duties, my son
wants me to ditch the beater Saturn I currently use (ugly, but runs like a top,
gets ~36mpg and passed the stricter Smog II test for N.Cal) and replace it with
an older VW bug. The bug wouldn't get many miles of use, but I shudder at the
pollution output from a car that predates emission controls! Driving the EV
won't make up for the emissions from a bug, which probably puts out more than a
dozen ICE Rangers!
So, is there *any* way to make an air-cooled bug less polluting? I *did* google
the idea, and get quotes like "it's a good thing these cars are smog-exempt"!
My son wouldn't mind if the bug was an electric, but we're not capable of doing
a conversion (I once removed a Type 2's engine myself, but my son would need the
Idiot's Guide just to find the distributor). The best I could think of was a CNG
conversion, and Idon't know how muchthatwould help.
If listees want to reply to the VW part of this post, I'm sure David would
rather you contact me directly (cowtown at spamcop dot net). As for the Ranger,
I have high hopes to buy it by late next week.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't believe that electric or solar electric powered airplanes are a
viable alternative, yet.
The main problem with storage cells is that, compared to petroleum
products, they energy density sucks. Even Lion and LiPol batteries only
store a small fraction of the energy that gasoline does (per pound) and
obviously weight is important in aircraft.
It is possible to build an electric powered airplane, but your electric
run time would be perhaps 1/2 hour or so. Hardly worth the effort.
Current solar cell technology is pretty impressive, but still not enough
to be viable. They have built solar powered aircraft and even one capable
of carrying people, but in order to get enough surface area for the solar
cells, the wings are HUGE. I'm not even sure if it could land at your
typical private airfield.
If we can get solar cell efficiency up to 50% and better storage cells,
then electric aircraft become more pratical.
Right now, the best I've seen is the german company that builds a self
launching glider with an electric motor.
It has a couple minor problems in my opinion. The main one is that I am
too heavy for it. The other is that it only has approx 10-15 minutes
worth of powered flight.
Still a good pilot, in the right area, could probably keep it aloft for a
couple hours.
> Is anyone familiar with work being done regarding fuel efficiency
> improvements of personal or business aircraft? The incorporation of
> solar electric or plug-in concepts within aviation is something that
> I've been curious about for a long time and I'm very interested to chat
> with people who are involved in this area. If anyone can advise about
> resources related to alternative fuels for aviation, I would really
> appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
> Brad
>
>
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Hi There
The TIL 111 is a Phototransistor opto coupler.
The TI 645 is a mystery as well as the 87L USA HIS235
Try a web address http://www.alldatasheet.com
As far as most of the normal and sometimes the not so normal can be found
here on datasheets. I use it on a daily basis.
Look for manufacturer's symbol or name normally helps a bit too.
Craig
South Africa
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 3:10 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: charger woes, obsolete parts
I have a 36 volt charger (probably intended for golf cart use) made by
Quick Charge Corp in Oklahoma. I've realized that the batteries in my ET
are doing badly because the charger finish voltage was way too low...
about 40 volts. Looking inside, I found an an adjustment pot which
brought it up to 43 volts, which is still a little low and I wonder if
something has gone bad in the charger.
I'm trying to figure out the basic topology so I know how to
troubleshoot it: The charger uses a 72 volt center tapped transformer.
The tap goes to pack positive. The two ends of the coil each go to a
large transistor-like semiconductor package on the control board and the
outputs join together to go to pack negative. The transformer also has a
small coil for about 22 volts that goes through a bridge rectifier - I
assume this to be a power source for the control circuitry.
The circuitry consists of the two power semiconductors, a handful of
discrete resistors, capacitors, a small transistor, and a 6-pin chip
labeled "TIL111 TI645". The marking on the PCB near this chip indicates
it may produce a 16 volt square wave. The power semiconductors are
marked "87L USA HIS235" which I can't find at Mouser, DigiKey etc.,
nor with Google. And being made in USA (!) I assume to be old and likely
obsolete.
So, can anyone speculate what type of devices these may be? I'm thinking
I may need to watch things on an oscilloscope to see what is happening,
but I'd like to have some clue what I'm looking for.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> You are not reading the curves correctly.
>> Power = RPM * Torque
>> You can NOT keep torque and RPM constant and vary power. One, or the
>> other, or both must vary.
>
> But the motor could have optimal torque/RPM in a relatively
> steady-state, and the power to the _wheels_ could be changed with the
> gears, right?
No, a multispeed transmission just trades torque for RPM, power output
remains the same as power input (minus losses, of course).
I.e. If you cut the rpm in 1/2 you double the torque, power remains the same.
> My admittedly naive reading of the torque/RPM charts tells me I would
> get the best efficiency from my AC55 by shooting for a set of gears that
> let me keep the motor in its sweet spot or range.
True, keeping the motor in it's "sweet spot" maximizes efficiency.
However, the sweet spot moves all over the place depending on the power,
rpm, voltage applied, etc.
The curves makes it look like the sweet spot happens at a narrow RPM, but
that's because they are holding something constant. Apllied electrical
power, voltage, whatever.
In real life, when the inputs are fluctuating the sweet spot (RPM) moves.
Don't fret it much though, this just means that you don't really need all
that many gears.
Generally speaking, when traveling on flat ground for example, the sweet
spot moves at almost the same rate as the power required for different
speeds. So, for the most part, a single gear will keep you in the sweet
spot over a wide range of speeds.
A second gear can help for hills, or heavy acceleration at low speeds.
In fact, the efficiency advantage of changing gears is probably less than
the extra losses of a multi-speed transmission. This is why all of the
recent production EVs have single speed transmissions.
They might loose some efficiency at low speeds or on hills, but over all
these losses acount for little compared to over all driving.
For example, lets say a single speed tranmission results in the motor
running at 50% efficiency when traveling at 5 mph (parking lot speeds).
Wow! THat's horrible right? Not really, it only takes a couple hundred
watts to travel at 5 mph, so you only lose 100-150 watts. If you travel
at 5 mph for an hour, you loose 150 wh. Big deal.
Besides, when's the last time you drove at 5 mph for an hour?
Now let's say that the multispeed transmission is 5% less efficient than a
single speed transmission. At 65 mph, your EV probably requires at leat
15 kw. 5% of 15KW = 750 watts. That means the multispeed tranny is
costing you 750 watts extra at low highway speeds. Spend an hour driving
at 65 mph and you loose 750 WH, that's 5 times as much as you loose at 5
mph due to motor inefficiency with a single speed tranny.
And it's much more likely that you'll spend an hour driving at 65 mph,
than an hour driving at 5 mph.
5% is possibly overly pessimistic, but even if the difference is only 1%
it stills makes more sense to use the single speed tranny.
That is if /efficiency/ is you primary concern.
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--- Begin Message ---
.
> Calculations based on Bowling & Grippo's website
> http://www.bgsoflex.com/aero.html [are these realistic?]
>
> How do I convert that to torque?
>
> Torque = power / rpm = 13kw/ 3000rpm = ?.
Power:
1 HP ~= 746 watts
1 HP = RPM x Torque (in foot lbs) / 5252
so
1 kw ~= RPM x Torque / 7040
13 kw * 7040 / 3000 ~= 30.5 ft/lbs torque
HTH
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--- Begin Message ---
> Nick wrote:
> > hp = torque * RPM / 5252
>
> This is in the USA. Everywhere else it's just
> torque*rev per second, period. No need to memorize other numbers.
Actually that formula for HP is true EVERYWHERE in the world.
If you want to solve for a different measurement of power, then yes,
obviously the formula will be different.
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> A friend wants me to build her a VW bug conversion. Problem is she has
> one leg in a brace and can't use the clutch. I know she could go
> clutchless and put into gear before taking off but I was wondering if a
> set up like my Citicar would work on a VW? Using contactors for forward
> and reverse? Any thoughts would be welcomed.
Yes, but unless you use a very large motor and powerfull controller,
performance will suffer.
Another option to consider is to build an electrically activated clutch.
Maybe use a small motor with a worm gear or lead screw, and limit
switches. Use a button mounted on the gearshift to actuate the motor and
disengage the clutch. Remove your hand from the button and the motor
reverses direction and the clutch engages.
VW actually built a transmission like this for a short while, I believe it
used engine vacuum to actuate the clutch. It was called a clutchless
transmission ( as opposed to an automatic transmission), since it didn't
have a clutch pedal. You still had to shift gears, however simply placing
your hand on the gear shift disengaged the clutch.
However, they are pretty rare.
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On 10/21/05, Emmerick, Craig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The circuitry consists of the two power semiconductors, a handful of
> > discrete resistors, capacitors, a small transistor, and a 6-pin chip
> > labeled "TIL111 TI645". The marking on the PCB near this chip indicates
> > it may produce a 16 volt square wave. The power semiconductors are
> > marked "87L USA HIS235" which I can't find at Mouser, DigiKey etc.,
> > nor with Google. And being made in USA (!) I assume to be old and likely
> > obsolete.
> The TIL 111 is a Phototransistor opto coupler.
>
> The TI 645 is a mystery
I read that as the rest of the number of the TIL111 - package info or
something, you can probably ignore it.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/TI/TIL111.pdf
> as well as the 87L USA HIS235
Sounds like a triac: 35A/200A, T0-218, isolated tab. The pinout
should be easy to figure out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Getting 48 miles range on a daily basis is challenging for an EV. Doing
it on the cheap is EXTREMELY challenging.
I seriously doubt these batteries will be able to give you that kind of
range, and if they do, I doubt they'd last more than 4 or 5 months.
As far as "buying" used batteries goes, I wouldn't pay more than the core
charge, typically about $5.
I got a similar set of batteries for free, since I saved the company
servicing the UPS the expense of hualing them off.
As far as storing them, you could possibly store them for a year or two as
long as you keep them charged.
Realizing, of course, that if the batteries are 5 years old now, and ythey
don't change them out for another two or three years, then if you store
them for two years they will be 10 years old, which is pretty much end of
life for them.
I would never use a cheap charger on anything other than open cell flooded
batteries. Such a charger isn't good for flooded batteries either, but at
least you can replace fluids and, if you're carefull, the damage would be
minimal.
In order to get decent life from sealed batteries you either need a good
intelligent charger, or you have to babysit the batteries through the
whole charge cycle; EVERY TIME. You only need to overcharge them once and
cause them to vent to damage them, possibly even destroy them.
Long story short, to get the best bang for your long term buck, buy 6V GC
flooded batteries instead.
> I have a possibility of obtaining a batch of Uninterruptible Power Supply
> batteries and would like advice. These are 6V 180Ahr Exide/Marathon
> "6V180"
> sealed lead-acid batteries, with copper alloy top terminals (a bolt goes
> down into the center of the terminal), and they weigh 85 lbs each. They
> are
> now about five years old, and although a ten year service life is
> advertised, I expect the company will replace them in the next few years.
> Here are my questions:
>
> 1. Are "older" batteries from UPS use likely to be of value for EVs? I
> would think that ANY battery would be useful, especially for battricidal
> new
> users.
> 2. Will the top terminal be a problem for EV use? I need 48 miles range at
> 40-55 mph (through lots of low hills), and expect to build an E-Woody
> style
> three-wheel tadpole design with a forklift hydraulic motor and a belt
> drive.
> 3. If I were to get a batch of these batteries, could (should) I store
> them
> for any length of time? If so, I know I would need to ensure that they
> were
> charged, but would I need to keep them above a certain temperature?
> Winters
> here get down to about zero or so - sometimes lower.
> 4. To charge them, would I need to get a "real" charger, or could I get by
> with a rewound monster transformer and assorted rectifiers, a meter and a
> wristwatch?
> 5. Would there be any market for these among other EV enthusiasts? I need
> to
> promote a changer and a controller, and perhaps someone might be
> interested
> in swapping. I am not asking for bids, but rather "Sounds plausible" or
> "Forget it". I'm in the Blue Ridge Mountains near the VA-NC border.
> 6. Using a 36-volt forkift hydraulics motor, how high in voltage should
> one
> go? I plan on having forced air cooling and a termperature sensor, but I
> am
> not sure where my limits might be... and if I should try for, say, 120v in
> one string or 72 using two?
> 7. How much would you expect to have to pay for each if you had to buy
> them
> from the company (or from the guy vendor who expects to get something at
> the
> recycle yard)? If God answers my prayers, I might get them for the
> hauling... but He also might want me to start saving now.
> 8. I've already ensured that I can get rid of them through a local salvage
> yard if I need to bail out. What else I need to know?
>
> Thanks for your patience with me - all advice and comments are
> elcome! -Tim
>
>
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