EV Digest 4850
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Orbital dimensions?
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV parts on EBay
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: zilla cooling pumps on a saturday morning.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Max current w/top terminal UPS batteries?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The "range issue"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: wallmart heater cores
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) RE: Tach Driver
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Tach Driver
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) range extender infrastructure scenario
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: The 'range issue' (long)
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: The "range issue"
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Dreaming
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: wallmart heater cores
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: window defrost, radiant heat efficiency
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT: LEDs Will Replace "everything!"
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: OT: LEDs Will Replace "everything!"
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Dreaming
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It depends what part of the case. The very edges of the Orbital lid
are 7.29" high (one that I measured).
http://public.tylinski.fastmail.us//EV/ORBYT/index.html
The Orbitals violate the BCI Group 34 height dimension. The
proximity of the terminals to the edges make it harder to clamp
down. The top has all manner of spurious thingys embossed or stuck
in, ensuring that you will not find a useable solid patch of flat
lid to clamp to. You can clamp to it, but allow space for a soft
rubber pad to spread the load and conform to the thingys. Spread the
load because the lid does not feel very "solid" to begin with. The
bottom is not smooth, and the sides are finned over, so efficiently
getting heat into the Pb would be a challenge.
But you gotta love the built-in recessed handles!
Let me know if you need CAD files. It's native SolidWorks, but I can
convert to whatever.
-GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Still working on the solid models for my EM. I finally got a
chance to go
> to the local Auto Zone to measure an Optima. Surprisingly, the
height to
> the case top (where angle steel would want to lay as a hold-down)
is 6.75".
> Yet the measurements of an Exide Orbital as posted here describe
the case
> top height as 7.5".
>
> Is the case of an Orbital *really* 3/4" taller than an Optima?
The Orbital
> overall height is 1/4" higher, and an Optima has the posts on a
1/4"
> pedestal above the case top, but that still leaves 1/4"
unaccounted for.
[snip]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought it might be the ElectroAuto kit too, too, except that the charger
is a Lester. Maybe it's an older kit, and ElectroAuto used to ship Lesters.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Austin
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:25 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV parts on EBay
I'll bet it's this kit:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/kits.shtml#voltsrabbit
At least most (all?) of the parts sound the same.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 06:29:25AM -0600, Bill Dennis wrote:
> This auction ended without the reserve being met. I asked the seller
where
> he got the items, and he replied, "These are parts from an Advanced DC
> Volkswagon kit car." The charger is a Lester. Did ADC make EV kits? If
> not, any idea who might have been the original vendor on this kit?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Wilson
> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:11 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: EV parts on EBay
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
>
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fse
>
arch.ebay.com%3A80%2F%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D8009100
> 421%26fvi%3D1&item=8009100421>
>
&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2F%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%
> 26satitle%3D8009100421%26fvi%3D1&item=8009100421
>
>
>
> Anyone else see these? Sounds like a good start on an EV. EBay auction
> item 8009100421
>
>
>
> Jeff Wilson
>
> USA (Ret)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Est.
> 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
> -- Harper's Index, April 2002
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Back in the 60's there was a paper written on bi-tronic or bi-bit or something
like a type of bi-charging. It mainly consist of charging in city driving EV's
that travel short distance all day long. Every time the EV would stop at a
parking meter, which was also a low ampere charger of 5 to 15 amps. You paid
for your parking and a charge.
I tried to search for the bi- something on the net, but did not find it.
You could at times be charging the batteries above 80% capacity so they will be
top off all the time. This is something like a 12 volt battery in a ICE that
is always above 80% capacity.
Ok, Rich, when you get the electric vehicle service stations in place, you
could install the parking meter chargers. I could drive across county with my
fast charge rated cobalt batteries that I may have by the time this system is
set up.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: The 'range issue' (long)
Lots of good comments as always. The "range issue" is partly real, and partly
one of perception.
The reality part is simple. An EV needs to have enough range to handle all of
your normal daily driving needs. When you face a trip that is longer than its
range, there are several possibilities: You can stop somewhere along the way
and recharge. You could have a fast-change battery pack. Or you can use a
different car. Let's take these one at a time.
1. Recharge somewhere along the way. This works if:
- You aren't going too far, so the number of recharging stops is small.
- The chargers are fast enough so it doesn't take you too long.
- There are enough places that you can actually stop and recharge.
- The cost and/or inconvenience of doing so isn't too bad.
California experimented with a public charging system. I don't know of any
formal studies on how the users liked this system, but my perception is that it
didn't work out very well. The charging times were long, and the inconvenience
factors were high. My impression is that it would take an impractically large
number of impractically expensive chargers to make this scheme truly workable
and satisfactory to large numbers of people. This method seems to be the
solution of choice for companies that want a way to make you spend a lot more
time at their stores (go shopping while you recharge).
2. Fast-change battery packs. This works if:
- You have a large fleet of vehicles all using the same battery pack.
- The pack is designed to be very fast and easy to change.
- There are enough places that you can actually stop and swap.
- Cost and inconvenience aren't too bad.
This method is already widely used for industrial vehicles, so there is a lot
of experience. The central charging/swapping stations need to know when, and
how many batteries are needed, so It works best when the EVs are driven on
predictable routes in a predictable schedule, like daily commuters or delivery
vehicles. It lends itself well to leased battery packs, where you pay someone
$X/month for charging and maintenance (though this can encourage chronic
battery abusers). I wish there were some pilot programs to see how such a
system would work out with the general public. This solution might appeal to
the gas station/garage owners, because it gives them something to do (and
charge for).
3. You can use a different car for longer trips.
This is easy if the EV is your "second car". I suspect this is the solution
of choice for most of us on the EV list. Of course, your 'other car' need not
actually be yours; you could rent one, or borrow one, or ride with a friend, or
take public transportation. I would think this was the solution of choice for
the auto companies; they would see it as a way to sell you *two* cars instead
of one.
Perception
Here, the problem is that people believe (and have been loudly encouraged to
believe) that they *must* have a car with infinite range. It must not only
handle every trip they normally take, but every trip that they ever *might*
take. People are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a much bigger, much
longer range vehicle than they need just "in case" they decide to go on a long
trip or haul something big.
I don't think there's anything we can do now to change people's minds. But
that's ok; we couldn't build enough EVs fast enough to replace everyone's gas
guzzlers anyhow. All that matters for now is that a small percentage of the
market *will* find EVs acceptable today, even with their range limitations. We
should concentrate on fulfilling this market, and worry about the larger market
later.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea and WE will be using 100 Delta T for our most agressive testing.
Even with 25 Delta T we are just barley getting going.
I was getting 1300 watts with a delta T of 90 Deg F.
Lots of tesing, But... 10 Deg Delta T... that's for the Over clockers.
No I have to dissagree with out there.. I you design for the lowest
possible temp gradients, you miss the fact that our gear... Ot's Zillas and
my PFC40L can easily sustain 150 to 190 Deg F heat temps. And in rough
summer weather, we need to keep this in mind. So.. we can live with 150 Deg
F water temps, In fact this is the point where my gear starts to cut back it
though put.
So the delacte couple watts at a Delta of 5 to 10 Deg F is NOT a real test
point, It's a tough esoteric hard to design to hard to meter spec that is
best left to those applications that need that level of cooling. WE don't .
The Zilla makes from o to 12kw of heat at 2000 amps. A Data poin the is mind
boggleing until you realize that this can't be sustained by any EV for more
that a couple of seconds, and most EV motors dies in about 20 seconds at
this power level. Still this does not happenvery often, and Ot's 12 pounds
of copper smooth this power peak out very well. My stuff is the oppsite of
Ot's I can make 400 plus watts of waste heat for hours... So there is
basicly no peaking from my equipment.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: zilla cooling pumps on a saturday morning.
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have Ryan's cooling kit in hand....
> > Let the testing begin...
> >
> >
> > Pump free spin is really quiet.
> > This pump has what looks to be 3/4 pipe nipples.. WAY big, Ryan
> has supplied
> > 3/4 to 3/8 inch Ind adapeters.
>
> Which suggests hig flow rate. You could always swap the Zilla
> fittings for something larger (don't know the radiator fitting size).
>
> [snip]
>
> > Basic test Cool a bucket of hot water...
> >
> > Take 5 gallons, or 20 liters of water... heat to say 150 Deg F.
> flip on pump
> > and fan.... measure time to drop 5, 10 ,20, 30 Deg.
> > Take air temp.. , record the volume the system moves by pumping
> some jugs
> > full of water through the cooling stystem of a Zilla 2K. Use 10 Ft
> of
> > hose... minimum.
>
> Looks great to me. Remember to do a test of the hot water bucket
> cooling passively, no flow, for a baseline. And/Or a test with pump
> but NO radiator at all for another baseline.
>
> Also, your test intervals might be less hassle as time-based (cools
> thus in 5, 10, 15 minutes) unless you can automate it. The most
> important information will be how it does with SMALL delta T, any
> system can dump heat with a 70F gradient.
>
> -GT
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>" ...a higher resistance from being loose, then heats up, melts..."
> Do these problems typically develop gradually, or quickly?
> If these problems show up gradually, should a maintenance item be to
> retorque each terminal to mfg recommendations every ___ days? Or once
> a week just after arriving home, would it be wise to check the temperature
> of each terminal? I would want a handheld IR unit for this...
It's like this. Lead is a soft metal; kind of like stiff toothpaste. If you
apply a low to moderate pressure, it holds. But if you apply a high pressure,
it s-l-o-w-l-y flows until the pressure is relieved. The hotter it gets, the
less pressure it takes to make it flow, and the faster it flows.
To get a good high-current electrical connection, you need lots of pressure (to
squish the metals tightly together, break through any oxidation or crud that's
already there, and then to keep air and water and other crud out so no new
oxidation forms). Since you can't get high pressure with lead, you need to have
a large surface area to spread the pressure over, rather than concentrating it
all in one tiny place.
Some batteries come with a 5/16" stud sticking out of the lead posts. If you
just drop a ring terminal onto this stud and hold it with a nut, the pressure
is all concentrated in a very small area. In a short time, the lead cold-flows,
the pressure is relieved, and you have a bad connection. Now it gets hot! This
accellerates the cold-flow, making the connection get even worse. This
continues until the lead actually melts.
You could just come back every week or two and re-tighten the connections
before they fail. But over time, this will gradually pull the stud right of the
lead post, and it will still fail.
You could put a nut on the stud, then the ring terminal, then a second nut.
Pinch the ring terminal between the nuts. Now you have a solid, tight
connection to the stud. But, the stud is stainless steel, which is a poor
conductor. So this works long term at low currents, but will get hot at high
currents and fail anyway due to the stud's resistance.
The bottom line is that these 5/16" studs are only good for low-current loads,
under 100 amps or so continuous. To make a really solid connection, use
automotive posts. They spread the high pressure over a large enough surface
area so the lead won't cold-flow (at least, not nearly as fast).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Ryan Stotts
> If I had the money, I'd like to take a 2000 something model full size
> Chevy truck and put a 700 mile lithium pack in it for a proof of
> concept. Hey look, I've got this big, heavy, non aerodynamic truck
> and it can do 700 miles per charge. Or a take a Hummer and convert
> that for an even more powerful statement.
The sad thing is, there are some ridiculous tax credits available for grossly
oversized vehicles like the Hummer and largest SUVs. You could probably convert
one into a 1- or 2-passenger EV with a ton or more of batteries, and get good
range. Sure, it would cost a fortune, but you write it off on your taxes so
somebody else pays.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
power = e2/r if you increase the volts and keep the same resistance ( the coils
of the heater) then you will use more power . so instead of 240 x 240 /
resistance you will have 300 x300 / risstance ==
-------------- Original message --------------
> Great photos.
> If we connect neutral to tab number 3 (the middle tab) and connect
> power to 1 and 5(the edges), will we have 2 elements in series for 240
> Volt operation?
> Can I push that to 300V?
>
> My thinking is that these are just resistors, except they will increase
> in resistance to limit the current. So if i insulate(isolate) the unit
> good enough, 300 Volts shouldn't be a problem and I'll still get 1500W.
> rewired as mentioned?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I should probably add that I have less than 1/2 between the non-drive end of
the motor and the chassis, so I used the ADC 8-inch motor without the tail
shaft. I could probably bolt some spacers to the end of the tail shaft, but
it would not stick out more than 3/8 inch, so any tach sensor that uses the
tail shaft would have to work within that constraint.
Also, my initial version of the EV will be clutchless, so I have no flywheel
to put Hall Effect sensors on.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 9:59 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Tach Driver
I'm looking for an RPM counter that will drive my car's original tachometer.
My original tachometer counts the ground pulses and divides by 3 to move the
needle to the appropriate RPM. The new driver doesn't have to send out
three pulses, though. If it sends out some other number of pulses, I can
just reprint the face place of the tachometer with the adjusted scale.
Any suggestions for an RPM counter?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bill Dennis
> I should probably add that I have less than 1/2 between the non-drive end
> of the motor and the chassis, so I used the ADC 8-inch motor without the
> tail shaft.
Paint 3 white spots on the exposed end of the mtor shaft, and use a
photoreflective sensor (LED and phototransistor) to generate the 3 pulses per
revolution as they turn?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
option #4 is to have a range extender trailor that you tow behind and run off
that generator which could be either gas or disel
-------------- Original message --------------
> Lots of good comments as always. The "range issue" is partly real, and partly
> one of perception.
>
> The reality part is simple. An EV needs to have enough range to handle all of
> your normal daily driving needs. When you face a trip that is longer than its
> range, there are several possibilities: You can stop somewhere along the way
> and
> recharge. You could have a fast-change battery pack. Or you can use a
> different
> car. Let's take these one at a time.
>
> 1. Recharge somewhere along the way. This works if:
>
> - You aren't going too far, so the number of recharging stops is small.
> - The chargers are fast enough so it doesn't take you too long.
> - There are enough places that you can actually stop and recharge.
> - The cost and/or inconvenience of doing so isn't too bad.
>
> California experimented with a public charging system. I don't know of any
> formal studies on how the users liked this system, but my perception is that
> it
> didn't work out very well. The charging times were long, and the
> inconvenience
> factors were high. My impression is that it would take an impractically large
> number of impractically expensive chargers to make this scheme truly workable
> and satisfactory to large numbers of people. This method seems to be the
> solution of choice for companies that want a way to make you spend a lot more
> time at their stores (go shopping while you recharge).
>
> 2. Fast-change battery packs. This works if:
>
> - You have a large fleet of vehicles all using the same battery pack.
> - The pack is designed to be very fast and easy to change.
> - There are enough places that you can actually stop and swap.
> - Cost and inconvenience aren't too bad.
>
> This method is already widely used for industrial vehicles, so there is a lot
> of
> experience. The central charging/swapping stations need to know when, and how
> many batteries are needed, so It works best when the EVs are driven on
> predictable routes in a predictable schedule, like daily commuters or
> delivery
> vehicles. It lends itself well to leased battery packs, where you pay someone
> $X/month for charging and maintenance (though this can encourage chronic
> battery
> abusers). I wish there were some pilot programs to see how such a system
> would
> work out with the general public. This solution might appeal to the gas
> station/garage owners, because it gives them something to do (and charge
> for).
>
> 3. You can use a different car for longer trips.
>
> This is easy if the EV is your "second car". I suspect this is the solution
> of
> choice for most of us on the EV list. Of course, your 'other car' need not
> actually be yours; you could rent one, or borrow one, or ride with a friend,
> or
> take public transportation. I would think this was the solution of choice for
> the auto companies; they would see it as a way to sell you *two* cars instead
> of
> one.
>
> Perception
>
> Here, the problem is that people believe (and have been loudly encouraged to
> believe) that they *must* have a car with infinite range. It must not only
> handle every trip they normally take, but every trip that they ever *might*
> take. People are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a much bigger, much
> longer range vehicle than they need just "in case" they decide to go on a
> long
> trip or haul something big.
>
> I don't think there's anything we can do now to change people's minds. But
> that's ok; we couldn't build enough EVs fast enough to replace everyone's gas
> guzzlers anyhow. All that matters for now is that a small percentage of the
> market *will* find EVs acceptable today, even with their range limitations.
> We
> should concentrate on fulfilling this market, and worry about the larger
> market
> later.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Regarding the range thread....
What if range extenders were available at your local rental center and you
could just stop in and hook one up whenever you planned to go on a trip? Well,
they are actually. If you have an onboard charger, you can pick up a genset
and be on your way. But what if there were purpose built range extenders on
par with the mythical acpropulsion unit lined up at the uhaul office. Even
better, imagine that they are voltage configurable, perhaps by plugging in the
cable that matches the voltage standardized range extension receptacle on your
ev. This would allow you to have one ev for all of your purposes without
needing an extra parking spot and forking out for your own range extender.
Heck, if there were customers out there, rental centers would be building them
with bike racks on them, integrating them with campers, etc. etc.
Of course there would have to be a lot of ev's out there to make this market,
but then there would be more ev's if this were available - chicken and egg
problem.
Carl Clifford
|-: grinless
Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe take the range issue in steps. You wouldn't want to drive your
ICE Geo Metro cross country with the spouse and three teenagers even
thought it "could" could be done (although luggage would be a problem!).
By choosing an Integra, you have made some compromises that can cover
most of your needs. Still it will not haul 1/2 ton of soil, Climb old
mining roads or get fantastic gas mileage. If we try to compare to
"commuting cars" we may have a lot better success in doing valid
comparisons.
Lynn Adams
49,000 miles on by electric civic 16,000 miles per year
1992 Ford E150 conversion van for hauling three teenagers across the
country, taking scouts camping, and hauling large items: 5,000 miles per
year
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Robison
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 12:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: The 'range issue' (long)
Ralph Merwin said:
> Christopher Robison writes:
>>
>> Unfortunately though, I am
>> often in a position where I don't have a real good argument to
>> support why someone should spend a new car's worth of money on an old
>> car that can't do everything they'd ever want it to do.
>
> There isn't a car on the road today that meets this criteria! Why do
> EVs have to meet it?
I don't understand this comment. My Integra *absolutely* does
everything I want it to do - it does indeed my personal criteria for a
universally useful car, and does it with style. It's good for trips to
the store, and trips to San Antonio or Dallas. It gets decent economy
when I'm not driving it like a maniac. It has lots of cargo capacity.
It's not as fun to drive as an EV or as comfortable to my conscience,
but these are perspectives most people can't be expected to share.
Different people have different opinions of what a universally useful
car is, hence our fairly diverse automotive marketplace.
I know that when my EV project is finished, I'll have a really cool
truck, one I'll want to show off to my friends and take to AustinEV
events. I know it will be a blast to drive to work every day, and it
will feel good to charge it off of west Texas wind power. I also know it
won't be useful as an "only vehicle".
And convincing someone without my philosophical bent to spend a lot of
money (and time, if you're going to convert) on a vehicle that won't
cover all the bases by itself is a pretty hard sell. Or so I've found
it, in the time I've been doing these shows.
Range is a real problem. I personally don't think we'll solve it by
telling people they're wrong to want a car that can go anywhere with
roads
-- something any ICE car can do.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Carter said:
> Interesting post about range, Christopher,
> and I've done enough show'n'tell to know
> what you mean. Luckily we're in a different
> environment where it's not so rural, plus
> we have enough public charging that you
> can drive way beyond the single-charge range
> of a vehicle, as we've done many times.
> I often balance out the charge time with,
> "well, it's free!". Also, "If you're in a hurry,
> buy your ga$ and drive your ICE, I'll take my
> time and go electric for free, thanks". I think
> that puts a nice angle on it. No-one drives
> a gasser for free, so that balances out the EV
> being shorter range.
This approach may work in California, just like I can say range is no
problem for me (I have a 9 mile trip to work), but it's not very effective
in general because it assumes an unusual operating scenario. To make a
compelling argument about EVs to most people (the majority of the world's
population lives outside of urban California), you can't play the
"cheap/free" card. EV energy cost seems to be about the same overall,
given the concomitant expense of regular battery pack replacement. High
performance EVs with their expensive AGMs tend to cost more. Right now
more conservative flooded EVs seem to be less expensive given current gas
prices, but it's uncertain if prices will remain this way, at least in the
short term (not going to get into the "peak oil" subject). Most folks do
not have access to free power, and at any rate would not consider it a
fair trade for being forced to spend an hour stranded at the grocery
store. For me, a typical shopping trip takes about 10-20 minutes. I would
personally be willing to spend the extra time to charge my EV if charging
were available, but most folks aren't interested in having their choice of
automobile force what amounts to a lifestyle change.
>
>>have to drive home and grab the other car. This impacts personal freedom
>>... and you know how us proud Americans gotsta have our "freedom".
>
> That's a really interesting issue. Importing 60%
> of your oil to make the gas isn't seen as dependence,
> it's part of the "freedom"! I see the EV as freedom
> because you can *make your own* fuel, not to mention
> that you can do it cleanly and renewably.
Trust me, I'm with you. But I was speaking of "personal freedom", which
seems to be of overriding importance to most folks I work with at the
office, even in a fairly left-of-center city like Austin. The greater
geopolitical issues are insignificant to the average Joe like the folks I
work with, compared to having to organize your day around the unusually
reduced capabilities of your car -- a scenario a lot of folks I talk to
find wildly unreasonable in a way that marginalizes any other perspectives
I might offer on EVs.
>Also, being
> beholden to oil companies and out-of-the-way fuelling
> stations seems less like freedom compared to plugging
> in at home, but there you go, that's just me. ;)
The problem there is that although the ability to charge an EV in my
garage is great -- I consider it a huge advantage -- the inability to
charge anywhere else (remember, we're talking about the US, not just
California) is more than enough disadvantage to offset it. For John Doe,
bribing the guy behind the counter at the kwicki-mart and taking 30
minutes to buy soda and chips (or beer, cigarettes and lotto cards,
whatever) so he can get back home is not an acceptable day-to-day option.
> I think the plug in hybrid will be the best bet for
> your rural folks. Short range driving as an EV and
> then liquid fuelled longer trips. If they don't want
> to plug in they don't have to but they'll quickly
> figure out how much cheaper it is and start doing it.
I agree completely. I was very happy to see the initiative that the city
of Austin is taking to try to make PHEVs a reality. I think that plug-ins
will be the technology that fills the gap between lead-acid and whatever
miracle brings us the ridiculous 1000-mile pack that will affordably
satisfy everyone's perceived need for range, however irrational that may
be. In the meantime trying to convince those not already convinced is
jousting windmills.
--chris
>
> That's my 2kW,
> Nick
> Dr Nick Carter,
> Owner, npc Imaging, 2228 Magowan Drive, Santa Rosa, CA 95405 USA
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.npcimaging.com Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
> President, North Bay Electric Auto Association
> "Spare the air every day - drive electric!"
>
> ***************************************************************
> ** New digital Bach edition (18,000+ pages) & digital Grove! **
> ** CoachMe - Complete Opera/Soloist Roles on audio CD **
> ** 61 CD sheet music titles: thousands of pages from $14.20! **
> ** Ted Ross and Stiller Handbook on CD-ROM **
> ** Books by Powell, Stone, etc., Dover scores in stock **
> ***************************************************************
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My S10 will weight under 2500lbs with 30 26ah hawkers in series.Any idea what
it will do for around town range (without my foot in it)?Also working with
miller welders I will have a 12kw generator/welder with a kabota diesel either
on a trailer or on the flatbed(flatbed and gen.to be removed at track for runs
down the qt.mi.)Its wt.780lbs without trailer.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Oct 2005 at 12:55, Roland Wiench wrote:
> I tried to search for the bi- something on the net, but did not find it.
The term I remember reading about 25 years ago is "biberonage."
A web search on that word turned up 112 hits, most in French and a few in
Spanish.
The American Heritage Dictionary doesn't list it, but Cassell's French
Dictionary
translates biberon (v) as tippling, and biberon (n) as feeding-bottle, which
sort of fits the
concept.
I'm not much of an expert, but I'll take a swing at pronounciation as
"bee-breh-nazh,"
the last syllable rhyming with the last syllable of "garage."
> You could at times be charging the batteries above 80% capacity
> so they will be top off all the time.
My understanding of biberonage was a little different from that. I seem to
recall that the
idea was to hold the battery ^below^ 80% SOC, perhaps between 30-50% and 80%
SOC, and only top it off once in a while.
This is the SOC range in which the battery is close to 100% efficient.
I could be remembering this incorrectly, though. It's been a while.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Oct 2005 at 15:22, Lee Hart wrote:
> there are some ridiculous tax credits available for
> grossly oversized vehicles like the Hummer and largest SUVs.
I think you proposed this a couple of years ago - build a lead sled for the
21st
century, an EV that would qualify for these heavy vehicle tax credits. The
credits would help to offset the cost of limited-production EV components.
I thought it had some promise then, and still think so today. Why, just think
of the marketing possibilities: "Now, the ultimate in 'safety' for your family!
At
four and a half tons, the new Blunderbuss EV outweighs everything else on
the road!" <grin>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Oct 2005 at 11:07, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> For instance,
> if your battery has a C/20 rating of 220Ah, that means it can deliver
> 220amps in 20 hours.
I think you mean "220 amp HOURS over 20 hours."
In other words, 11 amps for 20 hours, just as you state below for charging :
> That would mean to charge it back up at the C/20
> rate you would have to deliver just over 11 amps for 20 hours.
= = = = =
The point is that, for most batteries, the higher the current, the fewer amp-
hours the battery will yield until it is effectively flat at that current.
More
importantly, with lead batteries especially, this is a non-linear relationship.
Your 220 amp hour (C20 rating) battery will NOT produce 44 amps for 5 hours.
Another point - we tend to use C/20 and C20 interchangeably, but I don't
think that's technically right. Unless I misremember my reading on this, C/20
is the 20-hour capacity in amp hours divided by 20 and expressed as amps.
C20 is the 20 hour amp hour capacity.
C by itself usually means C20. Thus, to make it even more complicated, C/5
is the ^20 hour rate^ divided by 5 expressed as amps. However, C5 is the 5-
hour amp-hour rating.
Confused yet? I sure am.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will be very interested to see pics/details of your generator when
you're done with it. I'm doing a similar conversion, a '99 S-10 (Isuzu
Hombre badge) with 29 Orbitals in series, in the current plan. I'm
keeping the little 4cyl engine and emissions components with the idea of
mounting it on a custom trailer with a generator head, with a result which
I admit may turn out to be untowable. :o) I'm shooting for around
500-600lbs, minus trailer. If I go with Orbitals my truck will be much
heavier than yours, so I'll need to make the trailer as light as possible.
If I could afford of those 100lb 65HP Aerotwin engines, I imagine I could
have a 20kw generator at under 350lbs.
Beyond just range extension, the idea includes having portable power
generation for when we (AustinEV) do events. This year at the Roundup we
offered ride-and-drive, and the difference that makes can't be overstated.
Between listening to us jabber and actually riding in an EV, the
difference is between "that's ...interesting" and "Wow."
--chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> My S10 will weight under 2500lbs with 30 26ah hawkers in series.Any idea
> what
> it will do for around town range (without my foot in it)?Also working with
> miller welders I will have a 12kw generator/welder with a kabota diesel
> either
> on a trailer or on the flatbed(flatbed and gen.to be removed at track for
> runs
> down the qt.mi.)Its wt.780lbs without trailer.
> Dennis Berube
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:13 PM 24/10/05 +0000, you wrote:
power = e2/r if you increase the volts and keep the same resistance ( the
coils of the heater) then you will use more power . so instead of 240 x
240 / resistance you will have 300 x300 / risstance ==
Hi All
Not if it is a ceramic heater, since their resistance changes with the heat
of the core, in a non-linear manner, too.
Cold cores in cold air have lower resistance than cores in warm air. Put no
airflow and the cores get hot and almost stop drawing current.
The benefit of ceramic cores... much safer and less likely to catch fire or
burn out than a wire core.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:03 AM 24/10/05 -0400, you wrote:
What about using the waste heat off the Zilla?
> Has anyone thought about just wrapping copper tubing around the traction
> motor itself and using the heat generated from driving to heat the car?
If the motor or controller is hot enough to extract heat from that you'd
notice in a vehicle, you are destroying the part.
An EV is NOT like an ICE. Parts should not get too hot to touch, except the
brushes in a DC motor. An ICE turns something like 70% of available energy
into heat. An EV should turn no more than 15% into heat, at much lower
temperatures. NOTHING in an EV should give enough heat to make a difference
to cabin temperature, except the heater.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny wrote:-
> BTW, SuperTex HV9910 makes a NEAT LED driver. It's a $1 part that, with
> a few external components, converts power to an ideal constant current
> drive with great efficiency. That IC can take up to 450V input
> directly! (the drive transistor you select will of course need to meet
> your source voltage too). You'd be able to power off the main battery
> except isolation is a rather difficult issue.
> http://www.supertex.com/pdf/datasheets/HV9910.pdf
>
Could this device form the basis of a simple DC pack voltage to Aux battery
DCDC converter. Apply your EV pack supply 48 - 300 volts and connect the
output to your Aux 12V battery (maybe via a current amplifier and zener
diode 13.8v control circuit) and control Aux battery charging without
complex (read expensive) boxes.
Or wont the PWM output of this LED driver be suitable for charging ??
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 10/24/05 1:49:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
Date: 10/24/05 1:49:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Robison)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
I will be very interested to see pics/details of your generator when
you're done with it. I'm doing a similar conversion, a '99 S-10 (Isuzu
Hombre badge) with 29 Orbitals in series, in the current plan. I'm
keeping the little 4cyl engine and emissions components with the idea of
mounting it on a custom trailer with a generator head, with a result which
I admit may turn out to be untowable. :o) I'm shooting for around
500-600lbs, minus trailer. If I go with Orbitals my truck will be much
heavier than yours, so I'll need to make the trailer as light as possible.
If I could afford of those 100lb 65HP Aerotwin engines, I imagine I could
have a 20kw generator at under 350lbs.
Beyond just range extension, the idea includes having portable power
generation for when we (AustinEV) do events. This year at the Roundup we
offered ride-and-drive, and the difference that makes can't be overstated.
Between listening to us jabber and actually riding in an EV, the
difference is between "that's ...interesting" and "Wow."
--chris
### I am a dealer and repair station for Miller welders so I will get a
GREAT deal and have a welder generator,range extender all in one.I may even do
service calls with this truck. D.Berube
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is a buck converter and the HV9910 doesn't do anything truly magical
with it. In this case, the HV9910's constant current output is probably
not appropriate, you'd look for constant voltage. There are many ways
to generate the switching waveform other than the HV9910. This type of
buck converter can be used to step down 48v-300v to 12v, but will not
provide isolation.
For a given frequency and maximum acceptable ripple, the required
inductor size is proportional to current and the source/load voltage
ratio. The high ratio and high current required here, along with the
need for isolation, point towards a transformer solution rather than
this buck converter solution.
Danny
John Luck Home wrote:
Could this device form the basis of a simple DC pack voltage to Aux
battery
DCDC converter. Apply your EV pack supply 48 - 300 volts and connect the
output to your Aux 12V battery (maybe via a current amplifier and zener
diode 13.8v control circuit) and control Aux battery charging without
complex (read expensive) boxes.
Or wont the PWM output of this LED driver be suitable for charging ??
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I may be wrong, but I believe for, say, a 100Ah battery (@20 hours rate)
5C means 5*100 = 500A rate.
C/5 is 100/5 = 20A rate.
C5 is the same as C/5.
A number after "C" means current is less than 100A (division)
a number in front of "C" means more than C (multiplication).
C/5 or C5, the number is after, so it is 20 hrs capacity divided
by that number, 100/5.
Peukert exponent takes care of the in the difference in *capacities*
at different rates. Not different *amp* rates which are always
expressed in relation to C/20. There is no amps reduction with more
amps drawn (amps is momentary reading, there is nothing to be reduced
with time, it's not a total amount of something.
I'm not sure if C5 is 5 hours Ah rating (which is less than 100Ah)
divided by 5, while C/5 is 20 hours rating (which is exactly 100Ah)
still divided by 5. In other words "C" is capacity number *always* at 20
hours discharge time.
This is how I understand it, but may be just as confused as you are ;-)
Victor
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 24 Oct 2005 at 11:07, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
For instance,
if your battery has a C/20 rating of 220Ah, that means it can deliver
220amps in 20 hours.
I think you mean "220 amp HOURS over 20 hours."
In other words, 11 amps for 20 hours, just as you state below for charging :
That would mean to charge it back up at the C/20
rate you would have to deliver just over 11 amps for 20 hours.
= = = = =
The point is that, for most batteries, the higher the current, the fewer amp-
hours the battery will yield until it is effectively flat at that current. More
importantly, with lead batteries especially, this is a non-linear relationship.
Your 220 amp hour (C20 rating) battery will NOT produce 44 amps for 5 hours.
Another point - we tend to use C/20 and C20 interchangeably, but I don't
think that's technically right. Unless I misremember my reading on this, C/20
is the 20-hour capacity in amp hours divided by 20 and expressed as amps.
C20 is the 20 hour amp hour capacity.
C by itself usually means C20. Thus, to make it even more complicated, C/5
is the ^20 hour rate^ divided by 5 expressed as amps. However, C5 is the 5-
hour amp-hour rating.
Confused yet? I sure am.
--- End Message ---
