EV Digest 4860
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Permag fields
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Relative pollution (was permission... was range...)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV Insurance
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: good name for at EV: hockey stick
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Radiator
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: good name for at EV: hockey stick
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Personal Electrics in Canada
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) LED headlights ELX-6
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Personal Electrics in Canada
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Permag fields
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Dead batteries
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 3 wheel ev that leans called "shredder"
by Marc Breitman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Permag fields
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV article in Bay Guardian
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Radiator
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: high voltage heater option
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: PFC-20 Running off Prius HV Pack
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Radiator
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: window defrost
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: LED headlights ELX-6
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Radiator
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Radiator
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: LED headlights ELX-6
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: LED headlights ELX-6
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Getting permission to recharge at work (WAS The 'range
issue' (long))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Motor question: -
I have had a customer bring me a wheelchair motor that has had the field
magnets glued back in place - and draws 10x the current of its' twin.
The fields consist of two crescent-shaped magnets each side. Running a
small magnet across the face of the fields it 'flips' in the middle. (what
I mean by the face is in the center of the magnets' crescent each side [not
in a curved path] along a line that is from one side of the field to the
other).
To me this indicates that one of each side is in back to front? It looks
like they used a really good epoxy to put them in with, so I fear I'd have
to get them quite hot before they let go in order to re-mount them.
Alternatively I could send the field piece away for remagnetising.
Advice?
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:06:28 -0500, Mike Ellis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 10/25/05, Arthur W. Matteson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> And a thing about negativity and grumpiness. When I was 12, I asked my
>> father if he thought I could program an Internet browser into a TI-86
>> graphing calculator.
>
> I'm only 33 and you just made me feel old.
Fifty-something, NO SH*T!!!!
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used Progressive when I had my Pulsar, since they didn't care if it was
electric or not. Never had any trouble, but never had any claims either. My
other insurance company, Pemco, would not ensure non-gas/diesel vehicles at
all.
Mark
On 10/25/05, Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Are there any particularly good companies for EV insurance?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jimmy Argon wrote:
We agree that when the oil companies jack the price of
gas or have another phony shortage, we have the
freedom to drive on past and let everybody else fight
over the pump.
We wonder what it will be like to be the only people
driving when the real shortage hits!
Jimmy
Then everyone will try to get an EV one way or the other,
and when critical mass will be reached, the price for
electricity will be jacked up as well. Simple supply/demand,
which is pure business, nothing political. Just wait.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 10/26/2005 6:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL
PROTECTED]
writes:
<< This should hold true pumping hot water threw a radiator, if you pump it
too fast threw the radiator, it does not stay in long enough for the water to
cool down. >>
That is an old wives tale.
Faster liquid flow transfers more heat.
(must be my turn to be brusque and borderline inconsiderate..)
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very cool! Did you "just" add a HV connection point to a stock Prius, or
have you made any other modifications?
Edward Ang wrote
... I took the oppotunity to test recharging it
with the HV connection I added to our 2004 Prius.
... The Prius HV pack is 210V-230V DC ...
I was able to recharge at 18A max from the Prius. The
Sparrow was at about 170V. So, this is over 3kW!
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor - you are right, but we should stay one step
ahead with a solar system, wind or methanol fuel
cells.
Once I am off the grid, using my cars as storage, they
won't catch me!
I recently heard that the oil companies are looking at
buying Electric power companies, if true, this will be
a nightmare. Does anyone know if this is true?
Jimmy
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jimmy Argon wrote:
> >
> > We agree that when the oil companies jack the
> price of
> > gas or have another phony shortage, we have the
> > freedom to drive on past and let everybody else
> fight
> > over the pump.
> >
> > We wonder what it will be like to be the only
> people
> > driving when the real shortage hits!
> > Jimmy
>
> Then everyone will try to get an EV one way or the
> other,
> and when critical mass will be reached, the price
> for
> electricity will be jacked up as well. Simple
> supply/demand,
> which is pure business, nothing political. Just
> wait.
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Centre for Electric Vehicle Experimentation in Quebec (CEVEQ) has
done some testing with Segways and battery-electric scooters recently,
as they might be "applied" in Canada, eh?
...on an indoor closed circuit, as a phase I project, towards a phase
II effort (in the streets/sidewalks/whatever). Kinda embarrasing, but
whatever...
The fun thing is, the good ppl that run the CEVEQ www site have a test
forum feature up and running, and you can post for free/anonymously
right now
:)
Before you post anything, I ask that you review the msg traffic on this
yahoo group (hope you can see this):
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/messages>
Thanks for your help. I believe I have already added a couple of
"classic" EVDL msgs into the mix.
lOck
TorontoEVA
__________________________________________________________
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone interested in doing a group purchase of LED headlights. They should save quite a bit of power.
What would be the best shape/distance of a headlight low beam?
-Robert
Begin forwarded message:
From: Wayne Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 26, 2005 8:13:08 AM PDT
To: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ELX-6
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello Robert,
I'm having a few hundred of the ELX head made, which are being fitted for the
QuadStar flashlight. I can put from 4 to 6 LEDs in this head, with a variety of
reflectors or optics, anything from a very long throwing beam to a wide angle
flood beam, or any combination.
I will have these parts within a few months. I do have a few on hand, or could
even make one special if needed.
I could put one together for you if you like. I would need to know the exact
operating voltage of the vehicle, or, range of voltage. I also need to know
what type of bracket is needed. I can make a prototype bracket if needed and
have it manufactured in China with other parts. I could also have it made here
in the States but would be much more costly, but faster.
If you do decided to purchase a light from me, what sort of quantities do you
have in mind? What price range are you trying to stay within.
Thanks,
Wayne Johnson, Elektro Lumens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sorry, left out their forum site at:
http://www.ceveq.qc.ca/index.php?id=34,34,0,1,1,0&forum=3
--- Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Centre for Electric Vehicle Experimentation in Quebec (CEVEQ) has
> done some testing with Segways and battery-electric scooters
> recently, as they might be "applied" in Canada, eh?
__________________________________________________________
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey James
Carefully heat the outside of the housing behind each magnet with a tourch. If
all goes well they should pop off with little breakage as the epoxy heats and
gets soft. I've had to remove many a magnet. You are taking a chance that
they will break. Before you start, take a metal rod and a cheap compass and
check the polarities.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi All
Motor question: -
I have had a customer bring me a wheelchair motor that has had the field
magnets glued back in place - and draws 10x the current of its' twin.
The fields consist of two crescent-shaped magnets each side. Running a
small magnet across the face of the fields it 'flips' in the middle. (what
I mean by the face is in the center of the magnets' crescent each side [not
in a curved path] along a line that is from one side of the field to the
other).
To me this indicates that one of each side is in back to front? It looks
like they used a really good epoxy to put them in with, so I fear I'd have
to get them quite hot before they let go in order to re-mount them.
Alternatively I could send the field piece away for remagnetising.
Advice?
Thanks
James
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Dead batteries
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
Michaela,
The probability is high that all 3 did not go bad at
one time, but it may be the result of one battery
having one or more cells that are bad. When this
happens the bad battery will act as a large resistor
and begin to take down the rest of the string.
I disagree. The current through all of the batteries in a series string is
always the same at all times.
So, if one battery acted as a large resistor:
1. the overall pack voltage would drop dramatically ( because of the
voltage drop in the high-resistance battery)
2. the bad battery would be "reversed" ( the + terminal would be at a
lower voltage than the negative terminal)
3. the current through ALL of the batteries would drop, and you would have
very little power delivered to the controller/motor.
BUT, the good batteries would only be discharging at a very low rate, so
they would not be harmed.
Think of the extreme case - if one battery opens up completely ( infinite
resistance),it's like removing one battery terminal : no current can flow
in any of the batteries, and the car stops. How can that hurt the good
batteries?
It is true that If you had an open ( or high resistance) battery during
charging, you couldn't charge the batteries with much current, but you would
know that right away because your charger would show zero ( or very low)
charging current.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/286.html
I know im comming into this 4 years late or something...but ive been trying
to get in contact with anyone who can give me insight towards this
veichle...I haven't so far been able to get in contact with "Eric" from
bendmotors.com <http://bendmotors.com> which is now some search website...So
i was wondering if perhaps anyone had any knowledge as to how it works, or
how i can get in touch with Eric...Here is the message i attempted to send
him.
If anyone is interested in helping me, please reply as well and ill give you
the details on my project.
~Marc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you heat them there is a chance that there will be loss of strength
of the field. You may have to chance this & get the magnetysing done
yourself. You could build your own magnetyser.
david
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2005 12:40 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Permag fields
Hi All
Motor question: -
I have had a customer bring me a wheelchair motor that has had the field
magnets glued back in place - and draws 10x the current of its' twin.
The fields consist of two crescent-shaped magnets each side. Running a
small magnet across the face of the fields it 'flips' in the middle.
(what
I mean by the face is in the center of the magnets' crescent each side
[not
in a curved path] along a line that is from one side of the field to the
other).
To me this indicates that one of each side is in back to front? It looks
like they used a really good epoxy to put them in with, so I fear I'd
have
to get them quite hot before they let go in order to re-mount them.
Alternatively I could send the field piece away for remagnetising.
Advice?
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From the article which Lawrence mentions-
http://www.sfbg.com/40/04/x_biznews.html
Rhodes mostly converts old Rabbits, Geos, and other resurrected compact
cars at their owners' garages for around $3,000
Um... $3000 should buy a (120V+) motor and controller. Is that all you need?
No labor? No other parts?
This is misleading.
Maybe a short range, low speed, 48V or possibly a 72V system might be done
on a shoestring budget like this, but not a freeway capable vehicle. You
would be almost giving away your labor.
The rest of the article was great! Even mentions the EVDL :^D
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Radiator
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:00:48 EDT
In a message dated 10/26/2005 6:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< This should hold true pumping hot water threw a radiator, if you pump
it
too fast threw the radiator, it does not stay in long enough for the water
to
cool down. >>
That is an old wives tale.
Faster liquid flow transfers more heat.
(must be my turn to be brusque and borderline inconsiderate..)
Ben
The old wives were right.
Here's why:
The heat that a radiator can lose to the air is predominantly determined by
the air-to-radiator interface, not the liquid-to-radiator interface, as long
as you have above a minimum efficient coolant flow. So, the rate of heat
loss ( BTU/hour) of a given radiator is pretty much constant for a given
coolant-air temperature difference, and a given air flow through the
radiator. It doesn't depend on the coolant flow rate.
So, this means that, for example, if you double the liquid coolant flow,
the BTU/hour that the radiator dissipates to the air (and draws from the
liquid coolant) stays essentially the same. But, now twice as much liquid
passes through the radiator per hour. SO, twice as much coolant loses the
same number of BTU's, and the temperature drop of the liquid is about half
of what it was at the lower coolant flow rate.
The faster the coolant rate, the hotter the coolant is as it exits the
radiator. There is no free lunch.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone,
Victor wrote:
Will 450VDC be enough? If so, you can use the one actually one meant
for the job - http://www.metricmind.com/heater_w.htm and avoid
all that jazz below. All you need is hook up 4 wires and 2 water
fittings. You won't heed to touch your dash. Email me if you need
detailed user manual.
How long does it take when using this unit for hot air to begin flowing
on a really cold morning? I love my ceramic heater element, but after
the first time my safety system was circumvented and the cabin of my EV
stunk of burnt plastic, I decided your type of system might be worth the
few hundred bones.
That should be a good warning to all installing ceramic elements - have
a really good method, with redundancy built in, to prevent the elements
from being on when the fan is not on. The instance where mine got left
on without the blower going was really a freak accident. But I've
learned you have to design for the un-expected. Had I had a redundant
system, I wouldn't have had any problem (it turned out to not be a big
deal - the smell went away in a couple of days - thank goodness the
ceramic elements do a pretty good job of self-limiting themselves).
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recall the conversation, and still have the emails :o) ...
As often happens for me, lots of things have changed since then; I've
started on my conversion project, which I wasn't planning on at the time.
Funds for developing something like that have been redirected, and so now
I'm thinking about the cheapest option that would get me power to go, even
if that turns out to be heavier and less efficient than your setup. The
engine from the truck isn't the best bet by far, but it's free.
The added advantage of usable single-phase 120 and 240 power also factors
in, if such a trailer would be of use at events where perhaps multiple
cars would be charging at the same time, along with other electrical
items. With a 200lb 25kw generator head like the one at Northern Tool spun
by a little 4cyl engine like the one I'm about to remove from the truck, I
could keep 2 PFC50s going full bore. Then there is the possibility of
installing a transfer switch at my house and using the trailer for backup
when the power fails.
Of course, a 200lb head and a 2 liter engine are going to make for a
really heavy trailer; time will tell whether it works out or not. Beyond
the weight, probably the biggest challenge will be governing the engine to
maintain a steady RPM with varying load, which has been discussed here
recently but which still confuses me...
--chris
Doug Hartley said:
> Chris,
>
> As we were discussing some months ago, I built a 13KW generator for my
> mini
> pickup using a Honda GX670 V-twin, eCycle BLDC unit and 3-phase bridge.
> It
> weighs only about 150 pounds, fits in a space 21" x 21" x 19" high, in a
> former battery box area under the back of the pickup. I turn a key switch
> on the dash to start it when needed for longer trips and highway driving.
> It is very convenient and I used it several times this year.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
>
>
>>I will be very interested to see pics/details of your generator when
>> you're done with it. I'm doing a similar conversion, a '99 S-10 (Isuzu
>> Hombre badge) with 29 Orbitals in series, in the current plan. I'm
>> keeping the little 4cyl engine and emissions components with the idea of
>> mounting it on a custom trailer with a generator head, with a result
>> which
>> I admit may turn out to be untowable. :o) I'm shooting for around
>> 500-600lbs, minus trailer. If I go with Orbitals my truck will be much
>> heavier than yours, so I'll need to make the trailer as light as
>> possible.
>> If I could afford of those 100lb 65HP Aerotwin engines, I imagine I
>> could
>> have a 20kw generator at under 350lbs.
>>
>> Beyond just range extension, the idea includes having portable power
>> generation for when we (AustinEV) do events. This year at the Roundup we
>> offered ride-and-drive, and the difference that makes can't be
>> overstated.
>> Between listening to us jabber and actually riding in an EV, the
>> difference is between "that's ...interesting" and "Wow."
>>
>> --chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>
> Snip
>>>I will have a 12kw generator/welder with a kabota diesel
>>> Its wt.780lbs without trailer.
>>> Dennis Berube
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as getting access to the high voltage output, I
only added a pair of wires to the output side of the
battery pack. These terminals are after the
contactors and are accessible after removing quite a
bit of stuff that covers the battery pack. These
terminals are only energized when the Prius is "Ready"
mode.
I have a pdf copy of the dismantling manual. It took
a good hour of work to get to these terminals. Toyota
really do not want us to temper with them.
Besides this, I also have a 1200W 12Vdc-120Vac
inverter wired to the 12V battery, the EV Mode button
installed, trailer hitch receiver, LED dome lights,
and added an AUX input to the JBL amp.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Very cool! Did you "just" add a HV connection point
> to a stock Prius, or
> have you made any other modifications?
>
>
> Edward Ang wrote
> > ... I took the oppotunity to test recharging it
> > with the HV connection I added to our 2004 Prius.
> > ... The Prius HV pack is 210V-230V DC ...
> > I was able to recharge at 18A max from the Prius.
> The
> > Sparrow was at about 170V. So, this is over 3kW!
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: Radiator
In a message dated 10/26/2005 6:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
<< This should hold true pumping hot water threw a radiator, if you pump it
too fast threw the radiator, it does not stay in long enough for the water to
cool down. >>
That is an old wives tale.
Faster liquid flow transfers more heat.
(must be my turn to be brusque and borderline inconsiderate..)
Ben
Then how come if I pump it at 1 gpm through my heat sink, my concrete floor,
its looses 60 degrees and at 6 gpm its looses only 20 degrees.
If I let 1 gallon of 140 degree water let setting in a radiator without any
pumping, how come I am cooling all of that 1 gallon of water INSIDE the
radiator down to 100 degrees which I see LOWER!!! on my temperature gage.
Then if I turn on the pumps which is a faster speed then no speed at all,
then how come the radiator temperature is higher, which I now can see RISE!!!
on my temperature gage.
In the heatsink side or the Zilla the reverse is true. The Zilla temperature
is higher at 0 gpm and lower at 1 gpm which transfers more heat into cooler
water which I see with my heat sink temperature gage.
Do a test:
Pump 140 degree water threw a radiator at 6 gpm and dump it into a container
and read the temperature.
Then pump 140 degree water threw a radiator at 1 gpm and dump it into a
container and read the temperature.
The water that is being pump at 1 gpm will read a lower temperature then the
water pump at 6 gpm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know the brand name of this material?
thanks!
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> mike golub wrote:
> > Lee, In regards to that van that had the piece of
> plastic.
> > What about your vision of the road? Did you have
> trouble seeing?
>
> No; it was just a thin piece of storm window
> plastic. The plastic
> actually improved visibility, since the window
> wasn't always fogged or
> iced up! :-)
>
> The ones you buy at the auto stores appear to be a
> piece of 1/32" thick
> acrylic plastic, just thick enough to be semi-rigid,
> with little clear
> sticky pads. You cut it with scissors to fit your
> window (if it's too
> big), and stick it on the with pads. The pads are
> removable, if you need
> to roll down the window or when summer arrives
> (sometime in June in
> Minnesota :-)
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://elektrolumens.com/ELX-6/ELX-6.html
Cute. A few notes. One can do simple math and determine 6x 3W Luxeons
use 18W, not 22W.
That design is not looking so good. Luxeons must have a pretty cool
heatsink to operate efficiently and have long life. A heatsink that
stays very cool under 20W of transfer would have to be larger that those
heads are! Actually, since we were talking water cooling, a water
cooled heatsink would be quite impressive! The additional difficulty is
the sink must be electrically isolated from each device which is no
small task.
LEDs are not much more efficient than well designed large halogens (used
at a regulated voltage). In many cases they can even be less
efficient. This 22W is not adequate, you would need ~3 of these per
side. At this point the gains are entirely in looking cool, the devices
will use similar power. LEDs are much more powerful than *small*
halogens because halogen (and all incandescent bulb) technology does not
scale well and small, low power bulbs are extremely inefficient.
Not that I would discount looking cool! It brings in attention and
interest to the cause. Luxeon III emitters run $8.50/ea and optics
(better optics than what are being used for the elktrolumens part, which
is meant as a flashlight) are about $3. You'd need something like 30 of
these to be equivalent to a pair of normal headlights. What I'm getting
at is you'd likely be better off with your own design than that part. I
have designed very efficient regulated LED converters and would be happy
to handle the driver for you for an absurdly cheap amount.
Still, HIDs are about 3x more efficient than halogens (and LEDs).
Danny
Robert Baertsch wrote:
Anyone interested in doing a group purchase of LED headlights. They
should save quite a bit of power.
What would be the best shape/distance of a headlight low beam?
-Robert
Begin forwarded message:
From: Wayne Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 26, 2005 8:13:08 AM PDT
To: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ELX-6
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello Robert,
I'm having a few hundred of the ELX head made, which are being
fitted for the
QuadStar flashlight. I can put from 4 to 6 LEDs in this head, with
a variety of
reflectors or optics, anything from a very long throwing beam to a
wide angle
flood beam, or any combination.
I will have these parts within a few months. I do have a few on
hand, or could
even make one special if needed.
I could put one together for you if you like. I would need to know
the exact
operating voltage of the vehicle, or, range of voltage. I also
need to know
what type of bracket is needed. I can make a prototype bracket if
needed and
have it manufactured in China with other parts. I could also have
it made here
in the States but would be much more costly, but faster.
If you do decided to purchase a light from me, what sort of
quantities do you
have in mind? What price range are you trying to stay within.
Thanks,
Wayne Johnson, Elektro Lumens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Marino<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Radiator
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Radiator
>Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:00:48 EDT
>
>In a message dated 10/26/2005 6:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>writes:
>
><< This should hold true pumping hot water threw a radiator, if you pump
>it
>too fast threw the radiator, it does not stay in long enough for the water
>to
>cool down. >>
>
>That is an old wives tale.
>Faster liquid flow transfers more heat.
>(must be my turn to be brusque and borderline inconsiderate..)
>
>Ben
>
The old wives were right.
Here's why:
The heat that a radiator can lose to the air is predominantly determined by
the air-to-radiator interface, not the liquid-to-radiator interface, as long
as you have above a minimum efficient coolant flow. So, the rate of heat
loss ( BTU/hour) of a given radiator is pretty much constant for a given
coolant-air temperature difference, and a given air flow through the
radiator. It doesn't depend on the coolant flow rate.
So, this means that, for example, if you double the liquid coolant flow,
the BTU/hour that the radiator dissipates to the air (and draws from the
liquid coolant) stays essentially the same. But, now twice as much liquid
passes through the radiator per hour. SO, twice as much coolant loses the
same number of BTU's, and the temperature drop of the liquid is about half
of what it was at the lower coolant flow rate.
The faster the coolant rate, the hotter the coolant is as it exits the
radiator. There is no free lunch.
This is what I meant, The faster the coolant rate, the hotter the coolant is
as it exits the radiator. Therefore if it's at a slower rated than it must
exit at a cooler rate. Roland
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But the radiator is not passing as much water at 1 gpm. The worst case
for example is if the water were circulated at a tiny trickle. The
heatsink may get the water up to >200F and the water takes so long to
crawl through the radiator that it comes out at 90F. Well, it's nice to
have 90F water but without a high flow rate this means nothing. The
inlet temp to the heatsink is not the problem- the heatsink outlet temp
is! If it's outputting 200F water, the heatsink is basically at 200F so
the semiconductors are backed with 200F metal. This means the water
cooled heatsink is doing a *lousy* job.
The radiator is actually not rejecting heat effectively either. The
first radiator tubes will blow off plenty of heat rapidlt at 200F water
into 80F air. By the end of the radiator, the last tubes are trying to
cool 90F water in 80F air which only removes heat at 8% the rate of what
the first tubes did. So half the radiator's doing almost nothing.
By running water quickly, the heatsink ideally will keep the water a
minimum over ambient and the inlet temp is actually a minimum drop from
inlet to outlet because we get the cooling by repeating the cycle much
more often. Then you get a heatsink where the water's only 95F coming
in and 100F coming out, so the semiconductors are backed by metal at
100F instead of 200F!
Ideally we want water to circulate as much volume of water as possible
per minute. That can mean large tubes OR high flow speed. The
resistance of water moving at high speed through small passages makes
the pumping power requirements go way up though and it develops large
pressure differences across the radiator and sink. And there are
diminishing marginal returns. Once the sink is "cool enough", trying to
double the pumping volume may only make it 5% cooler while requiring a
pump 3x bigger so why bother. If you don't have enough cooling with a
reasonable pressure differential, then the cooling system needs is
ill-designed and needs to be wider. Either wider tubes in all
components or use more of the same components in parallel.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
Then how come if I pump it at 1 gpm through my heat sink, my concrete floor,
its looses 60 degrees and at 6 gpm its looses only 20 degrees.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Glad you pointed that out. The stated 432 lumens won't be enough for a car.
While it would make an awsome flashlight, for your car there are better
options. At 22 watts you get just under 20 lumens a watt. Real HID's are 3,200
lumens from 35 watts. Do the math these give over 91 lumens a watt. While it's
technically a grey area to install them in a not oem application, as long as
you take measures to avoid glare by putting the gas discharge pocket in the
right place in the housing and have the proper glare shields, I haven't had any
issues with law enforcement. Mine are deffinitely much much less annoying than
the ones in every Escalade. I have them in my Insight, which gets much more
night time driving use.
Consider, a set of HID bulbs and ballasts will run you about $300 on eBay.
Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://elektrolumens.com/ELX-6/ELX-6.html
Cute. A few notes. One can do simple math and determine 6x 3W Luxeons
use 18W, not 22W.
That design is not looking so good. Luxeons must have a pretty cool
heatsink to operate efficiently and have long life. A heatsink that
stays very cool under 20W of transfer would have to be larger that those
heads are! Actually, since we were talking water cooling, a water
cooled heatsink would be quite impressive! The additional difficulty is
the sink must be electrically isolated from each device which is no
small task.
LEDs are not much more efficient than well designed large halogens (used
at a regulated voltage). In many cases they can even be less
efficient. This 22W is not adequate, you would need ~3 of these per
side. At this point the gains are entirely in looking cool, the devices
will use similar power. LEDs are much more powerful than *small*
halogens because halogen (and all incandescent bulb) technology does not
scale well and small, low power bulbs are extremely inefficient.
Not that I would discount looking cool! It brings in attention and
interest to the cause. Luxeon III emitters run $8.50/ea and optics
(better optics than what are being used for the elktrolumens part, which
is meant as a flashlight) are about $3. You'd need something like 30 of
these to be equivalent to a pair of normal headlights. What I'm getting
at is you'd likely be better off with your own design than that part. I
have designed very efficient regulated LED converters and would be happy
to handle the driver for you for an absurdly cheap amount.
Still, HIDs are about 3x more efficient than halogens (and LEDs).
Danny
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think if you do the calculation of the difference in power usage between
the
motor plus LED lights and the motor plus standard lights, that even if you
replace ALL vehicle lights with LEDs, you are within 1% of the power draw,
because the lighting is somewhere around 200W max while the motor is
20 kW on the average. This means that for a 50 miles max range, the
difference is less than 1/2 mile.
I do think that LEDs are cool (also literally) and live much longer than the
ordinary car lighting. That may be good reasons to convert.
Warning: a lot of "blinkers" need the lamp current to work correctly, so if
you convert to LEDs then you need an additional load resistor for the
blinker!
I use LEDs on my bicycle, as the old bulb continued to die from vibration
and drained by batteries within 2 hours, not fun if you are making a long
night trip...
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
<http://www.cvandewater.com/>
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:24 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: LED headlights ELX-6
Anyone interested in doing a group purchase of LED headlights. They should
save quite a bit of power.
What would be the best shape/distance of a headlight low beam?
-Robert
Begin forwarded message:
From: Wayne Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 26, 2005 8:13:08 AM PDT
To: Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ELX-6
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello Robert,
I'm having a few hundred of the ELX head made, which are being fitted for
the
QuadStar flashlight. I can put from 4 to 6 LEDs in this head, with a variety
of
reflectors or optics, anything from a very long throwing beam to a wide
angle
flood beam, or any combination.
I will have these parts within a few months. I do have a few on hand, or
could
even make one special if needed.
I could put one together for you if you like. I would need to know the exact
operating voltage of the vehicle, or, range of voltage. I also need to know
what type of bracket is needed. I can make a prototype bracket if needed and
have it manufactured in China with other parts. I could also have it made
here
in the States but would be much more costly, but faster.
If you do decided to purchase a light from me, what sort of quantities do
you
have in mind? What price range are you trying to stay within.
Thanks,
Wayne Johnson, Elektro Lumens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Been there, done that, got the plug in.
The best way to get permission to plug in is to contact the head of public
relations where you work. This is the person that has the motivation to get
you a place to charge your car. He (or she) knows that it will be "good PR"
for you to be able to plug in at work. He also knows that it will be "very
bad PR" if you are denied permission to plug in. The head PR guy has the
political leverage to make it all happen for you.
If there is a PR group, you can pitch it to any of the major players. It
doesn't have to be the head guy at first. You will talk with him
eventually, however.
To get it to happen, you have to have a few things ready, before you
even ask:
1) A picture of you and your electric car. (Suitable for framing.)
2) Bring press clippings of other EVs plugging in at other companies.
3) A calculation of how much the electricity will cost each day at the
rates they pay. (Typical cost is between $0.25 and $0.50 per day.)
4) Don't be greedy or picky, just ask for 120 volt, 20 amp outlet,
anywhere. A map showing the locations of existing outlets can be helpful.
Stress that you don't care where the outlet is located and you will park
wherever they wish.
5) Offer to pay the cost of the electricity and installation of the outlet.
Have all this stuff in a nice folder or notebook, ready to give it to the
PR guy.
When I started driving my Wabbit to work, there was a press conference. No
TV, but all the papers and the local radio talk show. Sound bites were
featured on the Paul Harvey show the next day. Front page of the second
section of the Denver Post and the Daily Camera (Boulder.)
It really makes a big difference if your car looks sharp (or at least
presentable.) A traveling science project with vice-grip window cranks in
shades of primer and Bondo is unlikely to be welcomed as an EV mascot for
the company.
I have effectively used the quote "Plugging in an EV is a difficult and
dangerous as plugging in a vacuum cleaner."
>>>> What NOT to do <<<<<
Don't ask the facilities people. They will simply say no.
Don't ask your immediate boss. However, let your boss know that you are
going to talk to the PR head about it. If you ask your boss, he will
probably say no. Then when the PR guy says yes, your boss will be pissed
off you went over his head.
Don't plug in without official permission.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
