EV Digest 4881
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Zilla "standby" current?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 98 Solectria Force Electric Vehicle runs good Roch N.Y. Item number:
458704554
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Some pics of aircraft NiCad interconnects
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Honda FCX goes for a test drive
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Including aux battery in chargeing string
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Zilla "standby" current?
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zilla "standby" current?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 98 Solectria Force Electric Vehicle runs good Roch N.Y. Item number:
458704554
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Some pics of aircraft NiCad interconnects
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) article: Smart directions for green ideas
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Do bad batteries just appear?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 98 Solectria Force Electric Vehicle runs good Roch N.Y. Item number:
458704554
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Zombie Data
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Geo Metro series hybrid/solar project
by "Sean Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Prius pack on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Only 8 made in 1960?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) DIY Hybrid?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: plugging in at work
by "gail donaldson lucas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Do bad batteries just appear?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 98 Solectria Force Electric Vehicle on ebay
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Some pics of aircraft NiCad interconnects
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Low HP brushless motors
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) I'm being electrically "outed"!
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Some pics of aircraft NiCad interconnects
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Geo Metro series hybrid/solar project
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Some pics of aircraft NiCad interconnects
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Modifying an E-tek motor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Where to buy GC batteries in Compton Ca.
by Justin Southam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Modifying an E-tek motor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
30) Insulated rescue tools for EVs and Hybrids
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've checked the Zilla manual -- found nothing.
Does anyone know the Zilla "standby" current? That is, how much current
is drawn through the hairball pin #2 (SLI +14V In)?
Alternatively, the pin description says "always on." Are there any
issues with de-powering this pin when the Zilla is not in use, or should
it always have power as it implies?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:41:52PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was pleasantly surprised this morning to see the above vehicle on e-bay.
FYI, the item number is really: 4587045542
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587045542
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used my cell phone camera to take pics of some batteries I saw at
school today(hence the image quality). The rubber lined lid used for
a hold down is interesting.
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8117/11030513092re.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4180/11030513102kf.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7195/11030513114xv.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1993/11030513125xy.jpg
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6239/11030513132xp.jpg
It won't be until January until we spend some time on batteries. I'll
try and find out what the source is for the interconnects and how much
they are.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
gail donaldson lucas wrote:
> When the fuel cells become available at a lower cost
Are they still using platinum in the hydrogen fuel cells? I don't see
how the price will come down as long as they are using platinum. What
else is them that can cost so much?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
another problem with this is there can be points where current leaks to the
frame , like in the motor ( if you have only one contactor on the +) , or
from any battery . You could have the aux battery set up with 2 contactors
or heavy relays on both pos and neg , but you would also have the problem
that your aux battery will not be at the same state of discharge as the
traction pack . If your running your 12v stuff just off a 12v battery , you
could get one of these 15v power supplys that put out 2 amp and let it
trickle all the time . Marlin p jones www.mpja.com sells surplus stuff , I'm
looking at a 16v 4 amp one 15734-ps for $13 its voltage is 100 to 250 ac .
could put a diode or 2 in line to bring down the voltage .
steve clunn
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I realize the 12V and dieing behavior would be a negative but would it
work to charge at 300 volts all 25 batteries, the bottom most is the 12
V aux battery. But drive off of the top 24(288V) of batteries. Using a
typical rv battery isolator or a small contactor to isolate during drive
mode.
Bad idea. You have one side of a high voltage connection connected to the
frame while charging. You might be able to "get away" with this if you are
using an isolated charger, but I hope the isolation never fails. If you
are using a non-isolated charger the frame is HOT to ground. The whole
point of isolating the 2 electrical systems is to avoid this - especially
when charging.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Eric,
> Does anyone know the Zilla "standby" current? That is, how
> much current is drawn through the hairball pin #2 (SLI +14V In)?
The figure 20ma rings a (vague) bell. I'll double-check later on unless someone
else pipes up.
> Alternatively, the pin description says "always on." Are there any
> issues with de-powering this pin when the Zilla is not in
> use, or should it always have power as it implies?
I asked Otmar about this a few months ago, wondering whether I could tie pins 2
+ 3 together. His reply:
"If you do this, you will have a startup delay while the Hairball goes
through startup sequence and waits for new code on the serial port."
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Eric,
Very little current when the controller is off. That is when the ign and start
circuit is off. The maximum current this pin would draw is for the main
contactor 12 volt coil. My contactor 12 volt coil would draw about 5 amps, so
I used a small glass plug in 12 volt relay that draws only 0.1 amp to turn on
12 volts to the main contactor. This 12 volts comes from the ignition switch
power.
So running the main contactor, two LED's and the hairball itself is less than 1
amp for my circuits.
I turn off this 12 VDC with a 12 volt shut down switch which is in the motor
bay. This circuit is fuse for 4 amps which then comes off a 10 amp fuse, going
threw the shut down switch. From this switch it goes to a 60 amp fuse and
finally to a 100 amp 12 volt battery fuse.
To read the controller status on a palm pilot, I first must have this 12 VDC
off, than turn on the palm pilot, which the screen will only be at the start
screen. When I then turn on only the 12 VDC to pin #2, then the controller
status will come up on the palm screen.
This palm pilot which I got from Café Electric only will work this way. If I
have the 12 VDC power disconnected for a long time. I just plug in the Palm
unit and check to see what the status is. Even after being off for a month,
all by controller status was still there.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 3:45 PM
Subject: Zilla "standby" current?
I've checked the Zilla manual -- found nothing.
Does anyone know the Zilla "standby" current? That is, how much current
is drawn through the hairball pin #2 (SLI +14V In)?
Alternatively, the pin description says "always on." Are there any
issues with de-powering this pin when the Zilla is not in use, or should
it always have power as it implies?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I talked to this guy before about a Dodge TEVan.
I think he'll sell it outside of Ebay for the right
price. I think the starting price is high and
probably wouldn't offer him that much money, but if
you really want one contact him off list.
It was kind of interesting when I talked to him about
the TEVan. We spent 5 minutes talking EV's when he
realized I wasn't from Ebay and then gave me the 'real
scoop' about why the van was 'no longer available'.
I have no other info about this guy other than he was
a trucker that hauled milk before he started selling
stuff on Ebay (yea, I asked him about the goofy screen
name).
Looks like he's doing quite we'll on Ebay :-)
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:41:52PM -0500,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I was pleasantly surprised this morning to see the
> above vehicle on e-bay.
>
> FYI, the item number is really: 4587045542
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587045542
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
Those batteries look like the aircraft batteries I work on back in the 80's for
for a government defense agency. I think each cell at that time cost about
$120.00 each which of course these must be FAA specification approved. They are
about 20 AH each.
We had two full time workers doing the maintenance of these aircraft batteries
which was very intense maintenance which was check and recheck and recheck by
inspectors. We had inspectors checking the inspectors, which I was one of them.
Saft Technology Company which makes these type of batteries, have other
divisions other then for aircraft. Check there WEB site under Road
Transportation which makes large Ni-Cd batteries for EV's
http://www.saftbatteries.com/020-ms_aviation/20-10-10_aircraft.asp<http://www.saftbatteries.com/020-ms_aviation/20-10-10_aircraft.asp>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Stotts<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:00 PM
Subject: Some pics of aircraft NiCad interconnects
I used my cell phone camera to take pics of some batteries I saw at
school today(hence the image quality). The rubber lined lid used for
a hold down is interesting.
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8117/11030513092re.jpg<http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8117/11030513092re.jpg>
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4180/11030513102kf.jpg<http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4180/11030513102kf.jpg>
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7195/11030513114xv.jpg<http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7195/11030513114xv.jpg>
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1993/11030513125xy.jpg<http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1993/11030513125xy.jpg>
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6239/11030513132xp.jpg<http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6239/11030513132xp.jpg>
It won't be until January until we spend some time on batteries. I'll
try and find out what the source is for the interconnects and how much
they are.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*"Electro-car public transport and a scheme to track the proper disposal
of waste are two of smartest ideas for using satellite-navigation
technology."
link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4394080.stm
*
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone,
Richard Rau I and just got off the phone talking about all sorts of EV
stuff. It was a great conversation. One question that this
conversation inspired in my mind was about batteries going bad. Here goes:
Let's say you have a pack that has been very well equalized over its
entire life. What is the probability that a battery will just go bad,
say 1+ years down the road? Do bad batteries usually make themselves
known in the first few weeks of usage, or do batteries occaisonally just
die sometimes further down the road?
I've been wondering just how elaborate of a battery monitoring system
should exist - especially in a production vehicle.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
rod what is "this guys" name ,phone number and or email ?
i like the idea of a ev / van
-------------- Original message --------------
> I talked to this guy before about a Dodge TEVan.
> I think he'll sell it outside of Ebay for the right
> price. I think the starting price is high and
> probably wouldn't offer him that much money, but if
> you really want one contact him off list.
> It was kind of interesting when I talked to him about
> the TEVan. We spent 5 minutes talking EV's when he
> realized I wasn't from Ebay and then gave me the 'real
> scoop' about why the van was 'no longer available'.
> I have no other info about this guy other than he was
> a trucker that hauled milk before he started selling
> stuff on Ebay (yea, I asked him about the goofy screen
> name).
> Looks like he's doing quite we'll on Ebay :-)
>
> --- Nick Austin wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:41:52PM -0500,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > I was pleasantly surprised this morning to see the
> > above vehicle on e-bay.
> >
> > FYI, the item number is really: 4587045542
> >
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587045542
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rodney and All,
Rodney wrote:
Hey Everyone (esp John)
Thanks John for your detailed reply.. Much appreciated!
You're welcome.
One question though, you said that you have a 4:57 ratio, do you use a
torque converter or differential?
No need for a torque converter, so no. There's so much torque available
from the electric motor, there's no need to try to multiply the torque
either by using a torque converter or a tranny. The same goes for a
flywheel...no need to have one to spin up to get help taking off because
there's so much torque from the electric motor, and with no tranny,
there's no need for a clutch, either. Yes, the car has a differential.
The output shaft of the racing motor is splined. A custom aluminum
driveline has a female splined end that slides onto the electric motor
shaft, and the other end of the driveline is connected to the
differential's input pinion. This setup is just like any regular car
with a motor, a flywheel and clutch, a tranny, a driveline, and the rear
end, only simpler with just a motor (no flywheel, clutch, or tranny), a
driveline, and the rear end.
If so, what about those ratio's? I mean,
is the 4:57 your motor to drivetrain ratio, or final ratio to the wheel?
It's the final ratio to the wheels. The motor shaft and driveline are
directly connected and spin together feeding the differential's pinion,
which has a 4:57 to 1 ratio with the axles.
See ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
Check out McMaster Carr, http://www.mcmaster.com, for couplings - search
for "shaft couplings". Plenty of different types there!
Sean Taylor
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:04:08 -0600, Chris Martens
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yeah, but I suppose my only alternative would be a trip to the local
machine
shop...
Chris
--- Nick 'Sharkey' Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 2005-11-03, Chris Martens wrote:
>
> Now I'm
> thinking I could mate them by slipping a pipe around both shafts,
> then drilling holes through each and fixing them with a couple of
bolts.
A bolt is not a key, nor is it a uni joint. It'll shear off,
sooner or later, and it'll make a huge mess when it does.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Starting bid is $299 - is this the going rate, or a real low start:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8011888954
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this posting for a Henney Kilowatt correct?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4587292432
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, last eBay reference - the complete engine and electric motor from a Prius:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8011996351
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A.K.
Both of my electric bikes have battery packs that can be removed fairly
easily. If you could make your scooter battery pack transportable you
could charge it in your apartment and then put it back in the scooter when
you want to ride.
Gail
> [Original Message]
> From: a.k. howard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 10/29/2005 8:51:37 PM
> Subject: Re: plugging in at work
>
>
> I went and checked with my landlord concerning a place to plug in my
> scooter. They gave me the same answer. there are no outside outlets. They
> haven't seen beyond that.
>
> I have no outdoor outlets available in my workplace. Hopefully I can
park
> it in the warehouse. But again, the issues of liability come up. i hope
to
> visit that matter soon.
>
> I highly doubt that even if I offered to write a check for an outside
> outlet that I would be able to do it. I think many don't want to bother.
>
> At least for now I charge at home of friends and enjoy my scooter on
> weekends. Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas, NV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've had it happen. Normally a battery will develope sulfate and slowly loose
capacity, we all know that. Sometimes a cell can develop an internal short,
I've managed to have that happen twice. First time was about a year ago in my
GEM. It was running great and on the way home I was rapidly loosing speed. 5 of
the batteries were at ~12.5 volts and one was at just under 11. I charged them
up and the charger stayed on a lot longer than normal. Charged that battery by
itself and one cell was a bit warm, but afterwards it was back to normal. My
guess is a rogue sulfate crystal caused the cell to short out, but was easily
enough disolved and never had an issue again.
The other issue was I simply had defective battery in my electric Saturn. It
worked for a week, then I noticed I was pulling a lot of current to maintain
speed, and the pack voltage was lower than it should have been. I checked the
voltages and all were normal except one in at around 7 volts (for a 12 volt
battery). I tried charging it, but one cell would just not take, I tried to
cook it but it wouldn't do anything. So I ended up getting a new one.
You won't necessarily die in flight immediately if a cell goes bad, but you
will drag it through the mud, and it will get hot.
Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi EVeryone,
Richard Rau I and just got off the phone talking about all sorts of EV
stuff. It was a great conversation. One question that this
conversation inspired in my mind was about batteries going bad. Here goes:
Let's say you have a pack that has been very well equalized over its
entire life. What is the probability that a battery will just go bad,
say 1+ years down the road? Do bad batteries usually make themselves
known in the first few weeks of usage, or do batteries occaisonally just
die sometimes further down the road?
I've been wondering just how elaborate of a battery monitoring system
should exist - especially in a production vehicle.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Nov 2005 at 17:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 1. I am concerned about serviceability. The AC drive system is complex. If
> it breaks, where will I turn for parts / service?
The motor is simpler and (should be ;-) cheaper than a DC series motor, the
controller more complex and expensive than a DC series motor controller. In
practice the Solectria drive system is quite reliable, but can be expensive to
repair.
There is also some question about future support from Azure (formerly
Solectria). Some owners have been reporting problems getting service from
them. See the solectria_ev Yahoo group for more info. There are some
hoops to jump through to get membership in the group, but I believe
nonmembers can read the archives.
>
> 2. I believe the Solectra has a lot more customizations that say the typical
> converted 2001 Geo Metro with a DC system. Again, for those people who have
> these cars, who works on them (besides you).
I'd say it's about the same. Solectria probably did the work more elegantly
than some homebrewers do.
>
> 3. I prefer the "automatic transmission" (actually direct drive), but if the
> other car only uses 2nd around town and 3rd at highway speed, that wouldn't
> be
> that big of a deal to me. Also, several of the conversions (Cloud EV) for
> example are clutchless. If you are using a 9.1" motor, do you really need
> the
> clutch?
There's some disagreement, but I think so, partly for safety reasons.
When an AC controller fails, usually the car just stops. When a DC
controller fails, it often fails full on, so usually the car just goes! The
clutch is
the final safety point. If the main contactor and emergency shutdown don't
stop the car, the clutch will (at the expense of the motor, which will rev
itself
to death). It's intuitive to shove in the clutch if the car won't stop.
It's also difficult to shift many clutchless manual trans EVs. Fortunately you
are right and one doesn't have to shift as often.
>
> 4. Charging. The Solectra seems like it has a much better charger than what
> I have seen in typical conversions. Maybe one can buy such a charger, but I
> haven't really looked. I am only familiar with my own cars and my own
> experience.
>
Well, I think it's a good charger, but then I have one. ;-)
That particular charger is out of production, but there are equivalent models
available. They are pretty expensive, though.
> 5. Cost. OK here is where I probably will differ from others opinions on the
> list. I think one of these Solectras can be bought for $6500 - $7500 with a
> pretty much dead battery pack, maybe not today, but if I hunt around for the
> next 2 years, I bet I'll find one at that price.
Depends on how cheap gasoline is. Right now Forces are in high demand
and short supply, so prices are high. In other times a Force with bad
batteries might go for $5-6k. They might get down that low again - or they
might not. It's a gamble.
> that when I replace it at least I know it is new as opposed to someone's 2 -
> 3
> year old pack that they claim is in good shape.
Right.
> For the conversion, if I do all the work and really scavenge for the
> parts, I think I can create a 2001 Geo Metro with 9.1" ADC motor and 144 V
> system for around $5000 + the donor car. Some may disagree, so I'd like to
> hear
> your thoughts.
You might be able to do that with used parts. However, keep in mind that
one thing you get when buying new parts from an established dealer is
support. When you buy surplus and used, you are totally on your own
(except for this list). If you're comfortable with that, no problem.
Also, for cost, it's often the little stuff that gets you. It adds up.
> I would only buy the motor and possibly controller off the
> shelf (used hopefully). I would build the mounting plate and coupler,
> battery boxes, all instrumentation, and charging system.
There are those here who have built their own adapters. I'm not a machinist,
so I probably wouldn't try. But then I'm a wimp. ;-)
As for instrumentation, unless you're a EE you can't build anything that will
match an E-meter or Brusa counter. But you can make do with a simple
expanded scale voltmeter and an ammeter.
Charging: again unless you're a EE, in the long run, homebrew chargers will
usually cost you in faster battery depreciation what you gain in upfront cost.
> By the way, I really like
> individual chargers for each battery. I feel like it keeps them better
> charged and prevents over / undercharging better. That is just my opinion,
> and I am
> sure others disagree.
There is some experience on this very list with modular chargers. The
problem is twofold. first, they have n times as many chances to fail as a
single charger (where n is the number of chargers). Second, when one fails,
the user may not detect the failure immediately and its battery module will
often be ruined by being reversed when the car is driven.
Modular charging requires very reliable chargers and some method of
ensuring that failure is detected and a warning issued.
>
> 6. The big deal is performance and range. That is the real hook for me. How
> would the performance of this solectra compare to the IEC version, and the
> version with the 9.1" ADC driven at 144 V?
The Solectria is slower than the ICE version. The ADC will be faster 'off the
line' but acceleration will taper off quickly without shifting. I can't tell
you how
it will compare with the ICE.
This is a very general statement, since performance depends on the specific
combination of controller, motor, and battery.
BTW, I have my doubts that you can cram a 9" ADC into a Metro. ;-)
> I need a real range of 45 - 50 miles that I
> can count on. I'd prefer closer to 60 miles. I know it is wishful thinking,
> but that is what I would need for a vehicle in that price range (as opposed
> to a
> car to drive only 10 - 15 miles a day tops). Big difference.
The Force will have a practical range of 30 to 35 miles with lead batteries.
By practical, I mean with enough reserve to take care of the battery, and have
some margin for error. Range will be less in winter unless you have battery
warmers.
To get what you are seeking with lead batteries you will need 40 to 50% of
the vehicle mass in batteries. You can't really do that in a Metro; it will be
seriously overloaded. Bob Rice has done it with a Rabbit. I'll let him tell
you
about it.
>
> 7. Effect on battery life. Is the AC system inherently "easier" on the
> batteries than the DC system, or is it the other way around, or no difference.
In this case the AC system may be easier only because it has lower battery
current. But as far as I know (and I'm not a EE), all things being equal, it's
pretty much a wash. How you drive and the way you treat the battery seems
to be appreciably more significant.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 3, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
I used my cell phone camera to take pics of some batteries I saw at
school today(hence the image quality). The rubber lined lid used for
a hold down is interesting.
Looks like a 24 volt pack of flooded NiCads.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Marc,
Thanks for your email. I have spotted it rather late (12:45 A.M my time),
so I will answer briefly, for now, and we can go further later in direct
emails. I copied to your email address since most posts seem to take 6 or
more hours to appear.
You can use an Alltrax controller with the CMG series that has the
electronic commutator, that is a good choice.
These motors are available with different windings and commutator voltages,
so you can have a choice of the maximum motor rpm at a given battery pack
voltage, to suit your application and gearing. For example: Use a
CMG1-06-24VDC for 3500 rpm maximum or a CMG1-13-24VDC for 1800 rpm maximum,
full load, & the Alltrax supplying the maximum voltage (full speed setting
of the pot box). The Alltrax controller would vary the rpm and power
between 0 and maximum, and should limit the current to 400A or less with
these examples.
What rpm range are you looking for?
The price would be $1870. for one air-cooled CMG1, plus you will need a
couple of inductors to have the controller work properly to reduce the
voltage by its PWM. (I can supply these inductors.) So your cost would end
up just about at your $2000. figure.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Breitman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: Low HP brushless motors
Doug,
I don't have alot of time to do research on the site right now, but ill
let
you know what exactly i am looking for. I need a brushless motor which is
more efficient then the etek B&S motor, it has to handle two optima
batteries in series plus solar panels (about 1200 watts cont) and most be
able to handle the surge which could be up to 2000 or more im guessing by
looking at the CCA capacity of the red top optimas.
I DON'T want something that can handle much much more then that (anything
above 10hp) since i won't be able to output it and it will simply be an
inefficency.
What i want to know....
Options for speed controller, can i use the alltrax? or do i have to buy a
new one. Is it programable? How much?
Price range on the motor.
RPM efficency graph at 24v. I know that the B&S engine is very efficient
at
36 and 48v (curve stops at 4000 rpm) however at 24v eff curve stops at
1600rpm.
~Marc
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I'm trying to keep a low profile on electrifying my car with my car
clubs -- I figure it is better to start with a bang (figuratively!)
once it is done and hopefully get "Holy cow that thing is fast"
comments like the Zombie gets.
So what started as an innocent question on classing gave rise to a
couple of my friends in-the-know dropping some hints, I think it is
pretty funny:
<http://forums.utahscca.com/viewtopic.php?t=1963&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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On Nov 3, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Paul G. wrote:
On Nov 3, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
I used my cell phone camera to take pics of some batteries I saw at
school today(hence the image quality). The rubber lined lid used for
a hold down is interesting.
Looks like a 24 volt pack of flooded NiCads.
Paul "neon" G.
Oh, Duh! Read the title! (I'll go hide now :-)
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> Hello all, my name is Chris, from Carrboro, NC. I was kindly refereed to
> your list after asking around about my project.
Hi Chris, welcome to the list. This is a great list and you can get a lot
of great advice here. Of course, you can also get some useless advice
here, but generally someone will point that out.
To start off with, you idea to mate the motor and tranny using a pipe and
bolts won't work. HP isn't what breaks things, torque is. ELectric
motors can produce HUGE amounts of torque. You're 15hp motor can probably
produce more torque than the original Metro motor.
If you make the bolts large enough to withstand the sheering forces, then
the hole in the shaft are so large that the shafts will break (even inside
the pipe).
Even low power EVs normally use taper lock hubs. This is basically a
small cone shaped innner hub with a split in it, and a larger hub with a
funnel shaped opening that the small humfits in. The two parts and then
drawn together with bolts forcing the inner hub down into the funnel.
This causes it to squeeze the motors shaft VERY tightly.
The convesions that don't use taper lock hubs, normally break, sooner or
later.
> I'm trying to put together a hybrid car that runs on gasoline, but has
> solar panels as well.
Are you planning on mounting the panels on the car? Pretty much useles if
you are.
one square yard worth of solar cells mounted flat on the roof will produce
pehaps 75 watts of power for maybe 4 or 5 hours a day. If you can squeeze
in 4 square yards of solar cells, you'll get 300 watts x 5 hours = 1500
watts hours. Subtract charging losses, etc, and you'll end up with enough
power for 4, maybe 5 miles tops.
> It's different then current production hybrids in two
> ways. First, it has much less power (about 10-15 HP for a Geo Metro).
That's fine, just realize that it will have a low top speed and probably
accelerate slowly. My electric truck tops out at about 30 hp. It takes
almost 90 seconds to reach 60mph, and my truck isrelatively light for a
conversion, only 3250 lbs.
> Secondly, only
> the electric motor powers the wheels, the gas motor powers a generator.
> This has the advantage of running the gas motor at full throttle when
> it is running, greatly increasing it's efficiency.
> The motor is a lawnmower 5HP B&S, which I plan to convert to lean burn
> fuel injection.
Unfortunately you are neglecting to take into account efficiency losses in
the generator, charging the batteries,and then the motor.
The generator will be maybe 85% efficient (if you're lucky), if you use it
to power a battery charger, then that will also be about 85%. You might
be able to run the generator right into the batteries, if you have the
right kind and someway to control chraging current. This will probably
dropthe generators efficiency, but you'd skip the losses in the charger.
Lead acid batteries have a charge efficiency of about 70-75%, as far as I
know all the other battery technologies are even worse, except perhaps
LiIon/LiPoly.
The cheap motor you are using is probably somewhere between 60% and 85%
efficient, had to tell without knowing what kind of motor it is.
So overall efficiency of the electric system is somewhere between 55%
(doubtful) to 30% (also doubtful), figure somewhere around 45-50%.
Now let's say your metro engine averages 18% when diving around, and let's
say you can manage to wring 35% out of the b&s (I doubt it). Adding your
electic components to make a series type hybrid (which is what you
described) makes your overall efficiency somewhere around 35% x 55% = 19%
to 35% x 30% = 10% with the most likely efficiency of about 16%.
You'd be far better off build a parallel hybrid (either electric motor, or
gas motor, or both, can drive the wheels), this way you maintain you
current top speed, and improve your acceleartion AND impove your
efficiency. Possibly toping off at 25% or better.
Not to mention that the B&S will produce about 100 times as much polution
as the metro engine.
Final problem, 5hp is NOWHERE near enough power. a 5HP b&s can produce
perhaps 3hp continously. You'll loose about 1/2 this going through the
electric components, so you'll only have about 1.5hp left.
Unless you plan on driving around at 25 mph, than isn't nearly enough.
The average car requires about 10hp to go 50mph.
FWIW, the similar system you probably read about was in Mother Earth News
right? Mother Earth printedthat article without verifying it, they tried
building a car following those direction and they could NOT duplicate the
authors claims. At a top speed of ~40 mph, they couldn't even come close.
I don't have the link to Mother Earth's article about this, but I'm sure
someone else will post it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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It's not rubber it's silicon, you can try to burn it if you have time to
loose :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Some pics of aircraft NiCad interconnects
> I used my cell phone camera to take pics of some batteries I saw at
> school today(hence the image quality). The rubber lined lid used for
> a hold down is interesting.
>
> http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8117/11030513092re.jpg
> http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4180/11030513102kf.jpg
> http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7195/11030513114xv.jpg
> http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1993/11030513125xy.jpg
> http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6239/11030513132xp.jpg
>
> It won't be until January until we spend some time on batteries. I'll
> try and find out what the source is for the interconnects and how much
> they are.
>
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The E-tek is a cheap chinese made copy of the Lemco aka Lynch motor.
The Lemco has better efficiency, but costs about 4x as much.
There is no simple asnswer to your question, because it depends on how you
modify the motor. Simple mods to allow it to survive higher RPMS will
have no effect on efficiency. It might be possible to heavily modify the
motor and improve it's efficiency, but I think that would cost more than
buying a better motor.
> I'm not familiar with the Lemco motor, however i was more generally
> interested in the efficiency cost...For instance, would it be more
> efficient
> to modify the etek, or simply buy a bigger one. Would modifying it cause
> less efficiency (lower the exponential efficiency curve)?
> Anyhow, how did you learn to modify it? Surely this isnt a guess and check
> type situation, can you recommend any literature or the like?
> Thanks
> ~Marc
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roland, Ryan and Nick for your help. I forwarded your comments on to
Max.
Cheers,
Justin
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.6/151 - Release Date: 28-10-05
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> The E-tek is a cheap chinese made copy of the Lemco aka Lynch motor.
> The Lemco has better efficiency, but costs about 4x as much.
>
> There is no simple asnswer to your question, because it depends on how you
> modify the motor. Simple mods to allow it to survive higher RPMS will
> have no effect on efficiency. It might be possible to heavily modify the
> motor and improve it's efficiency, but I think that would cost more than
> buying a better motor.
>
Eteks peak ~88% and can't tolerate much over 48v continuously when also run at
high currents while the Lynch nears 92% with higher voltage and current
tolerance, but those who like to "experiment" will probably go with the cheaper
one! Ely from Electricmoto has banded the armature for higher rpm's and others
have added more air flow for high current, but wouldn't it be better to add
bigger brushes if you want to force in more current?
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>From BoingBoing:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/11/02/147306.html
Hurst Centaur is making insulated Jaws of Life and other rescue tools
for use on hybrids and EVs.
"The insulation reacts to electrical exposure visually."
(I suppose that it lights up or something)
I guess that even though most hybrids have their HV cabling far away
from the doors and windows where rescuers will be attempting to cut
their way in, an accident could cause the frame to come into contact
with something in the HV pack or cables.
Mark
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