EV Digest 5330

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: Would like large AGM with good EV user history (somewhat long)
        by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Battery Pack Heating
        by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Battery Pack Heating - Optima Hawker links
        by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Pusher trailers, (was Re: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps  driving my 
EV?)
        by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: Would like large AGM with good EV user history (somewhat long)
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: single string, was: Battery Pack Heating
        by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps.  Wrong resistor?
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Battery Pack Heating
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: single string, was: Battery Pack Heating
        by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Which battery terminals would be at least satisfactory in my 
        specific application?
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: 3kw genset for $315 
        by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: single string, was: Battery Pack Heating
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Pusher trailers, (was Re: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps  driving my 
EV?)
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
My batteries also came with stainless steel bolts, nuts,flat and split washers 
(battery has two Flag-terminals)So all that needs to be done is put the bolt 
through the cable terminal first, without washer (since this is the harder 
material) then through the battery terminal, add the flat washer, add the split 
washer and then torque the nut onto this.
If you have only a bolt (battery has screw hole) then you start with a split 
washer on the bolt, flat washer, then the cable terminal and then bolt it into 
the hole.

   
   
  Has anyone tried using spring(s), like adjacent to the bolt head and to a 
locknut instead of a regular nut, to maintain pressure as the lead 
"shape-shifted?"
  
 
  Most of my battery-cable connections are not crimped but clamped, using a 
bronze grounding attachment that has a cable hole for a 2/0 cable and a flat 
mounting area with
hole. Area surface is about 1 square inch, so good contact almost guaranteed 
after lightly filing to achieve a shiny surface and a light touch of NOALOX to 
avoid the contact to deteriorate from oxidation.

   
   
  I may not understand what you mean by this. And does petroleum jelly work 
fine in lieu of NOALOX?
   
  How were/are the Factory S-10 and Ranger EV packs interconnected? Since 
nobody wants to have to drop their pack out once a month just to check if the 
connections are still secure....  
   
   
  Since most batteries are inaccessible, it will be hard to re-torque them, 
therefor I wanted the contact to remain good even at low contact pressure 
(after the lead has deformed due to the pressure)I checked contact resistance 
after finger-tightening one
battery contact and it was perfect, could not reduce it by bolting it down 
(well below 0.1 milliOhm)

   
   
  How often will you need to check the connections I wonder? Three of my twelve 
AGMs will be buried too. If wire pairs for voltage monitoring were placed on 
these, would they start flucuating when the connections became loose, thereby 
reliably indicating prior to disaster striking, that it was time to re-tighten?
   
   
   
  Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

   
  The problem is that the steel, perhaps stainless, washer is a very poor 
electrical conductor and results in a voltage drop and heat generation. In 
theory the material that the fastener (the threaded post in this
case) is made of is irrelevant since its job is merely to hold the cable 
end/lug against the battery terminal; it does not actually conduct a 
significant fraction of the load current.  However, if one places a steel 
washer between the lug and terminal, the connection between the lug and 
terminal becomes poor enough that a significant portion of the load current may 
flow through the fastener (the rest of it flows 
through the similarly poorly conducting washer).  The result can be enough heat
generation to actually melt the battery case around the terminal!
   
   
  Could large diameter "washers" of a more conductive metal then steel be used 
in between thread insert 'T' type battery terminals and cable lugs, in order to 
increase contact area. That is, if the surface area of the 'T' terminal on the 
battery top is small relative to the cable lug such that less than 100% of the 
cable lug is contacting it. 
   
   
  Mark

                
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're wearing me out Roger.

Mike




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mike Phillips wrote:
> >> I'm not worried so much about range as I am about cycle life.
> >> I think the cycle life of an ACP car and the NREL tests are
> >> conclusive proof that controlled warmth is better.
> 
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > The NREL tests have been discussed onlist in the past and are
> riddled
> > with problems that undermine their value.
> 
> My impression is that ACP got its long battery life primarily with
> cars
> that used an ICE generator trailer for long trips. I haven't seen any
> published data from them to document their battery's actual
> performance
> (number of cycles, depth of discharge, typical currents and
> temperatures, etc.) What I see is mostly marketing and anecdotal
> data.
> I'm not saying they aren't getting good results; just that they
> aren't
> defining what the results are, or how they are getting them.

They have not used a generator in many years. All I can tell you is
what I have observed. I am keeping notes on each car I work on and ride
in. They haul ass, go far, and the battery's out last mine by several
hundred precent. 

> 
> The NREL tests are impressive on the surface, but as Roger said,
> there
> are serious flaws. The "normal" charging algorithm they used as a
> control was a *terrible* one that appears chosen to deliberately
> destroy
> the batteries as quickly as possible. They ran the tests over a very
> short time span, so calendar life was irrelevant, and they largely
> ignored the consequences of temperature on capacity.
> 
> I was initially impressed by the NREL test, and tried to duplicate
> its
> results on some AGMs myself. My conclusion was that:
> 
> 1. They deliberately overcharged the battery to get it hot.
> 2. The higher temperature resulted in higher amphour capacity.
> 3. You only get the longer cycle life if the battery is kept hot, and
>    cycled quickly. If the battery rests or cools, the capacity goes
> away.
> 4. The high temperature cause a very high self-discharge rate, and
> very
>    short calendar life (just a few months).
> 5. Batteries vented and lost water. They failed not from low
> capacity,
>    but from grid corrosion (excessive internal resistance) that
> prevented
>    them from delivering enough current to be useful.
> 
> I did find that if you have old batteries like yours that can no
> longer
> provide enough capacity, you *can* get a little more life out of them
> by
> heating them up. I could take an old Optima down to 50% capacity, and
> get it back up to 80% capacity over a few cycles by charging and
> discharging at high enough currents to get it hot (120-140 deg.F).
> The
> high temperature also lowers the internal resistance, which lets you
> draw more current before the voltage sag gets excessive.
> 
> But let it rest for even a few hours, and it went right back down to
> less than 50% capacity (actually a bit worse; after a few dozen of
> these
> cycles, the battery was destroyed).
> 
> Now, one thing I didn't try was to apply an external source of heat.
> The
> life shouldn't be shortened as drastically if the heat was not
> produced
> by overcharging.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> 
> 


Here's to the crazy ones. 
The misfits. 
The rebels. 
The troublemakers. 
The round pegs in the square holes. 
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!

www.RotorDesign.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

On Apr 6, 2006, at 11:16 AM, Paul Wallace wrote:

what type of dynamic stability issues might arise with a pusher trailer?

There are two well-known examples of pusher trailers, JB Straubel and Mr. Sharkey. Mr. Sharkey says that there was no way to tell that the pusher was back there pushing. No change in handling characteristics whatsoever. JB Straubel doesn't mention any handling issues. I suggest checking out their sites - very good info, especially the first one.

<http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm>
<http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher.htm>

The pusher trailers they built included differentials, and they were pushing a four-wheeled vehicle whose designers spent time making sure they wouldn't be greatly affected by external steering forces.

You'd probably notice the greatest effect if the pusher trailer is pushing significantly off-axis, say, while going around a tight turn. However, pusher trailers are for highway travel and generally stay pretty well lined up with the axis of the EV they're pushing. No tight turns on the freeway (we hope!) Both of these guys took their EVs through the mountains with the pusher trailer and didn't report any problems with the curves they encountered.

Are there any mechanical design pitfalls in the trailer hitch pusher connection arm, etc. that should be taken into account to make the pusher design safe and easy to manage when driving?

Good question. I'd talk it over with someone who knows something about hitch designs and/or mechanical engineering. But I'd guess (I say, that's *guess*, son) that there won't be many differences between the dynamics of a pusher trailer and a regular trailer going downhill.

One possible issue I've thought of: trailer brakes. Does anyone have any suggestions on adding trailer brakes to the front clip of a front-wheel-drive vehicle? My EV won't have power brakes and I'm a bit worried about the extra weight of a pusher trailer. I'd like it to have its own brakes.


If I build one of these with a rabbit diesel front clip, my wife would need to be able to drive with it.

I am mulling over building a pusher trailer one of these days, and the way I am planning to control it is with a cruise control kit. The pusher trailer shouldn't be any harder to use than a cruise control. Get it up to speed by using the EV, then set the cruise control and let the cruise control handle the ICE in the pusher trailer. Use the accel/decel buttons to adjust the speed. Tap the brakes in the EV to shut it off, etc. This would of course work best with a pusher with an automatic transmission.

There should also be a kill switch in case the pusher trailer bursts into flames or loses a wheel or something along those lines.

I don't know if you need to care about the gas gauge. Hopefully it will have enough range to make you want to stop occasionally, at which point you can check the gauge in the trailer. And if you run out of gas, you still have the EV to pull it hopefully to the next gas station. Or, you could hook it up to the unused gas gauge in your EV's dashboard. Or throw an extra gas can in the back of the pusher trailer. I plan to have some storage space in my pusher. Why not? It's a trailer, after all.


Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads

--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>   Could large diameter "washers" of a more conductive metal 
> then steel be used in between thread insert 'T' type battery 
> terminals and cable lugs, in order to increase contact area. 
> That is, if the surface area of the 'T' terminal on the 
> battery top is small relative to the cable lug such that less 
> than 100% of the cable lug is contacting it. 

No.  The contact area between the T terminal and the washer is still
limited to that of the T terminal.  Placing a washer between the lug and
the T terminal results in 2 contacts instead of one (lug to washer and
washer to T terminal), plus the resistance of the washer itself.  This
will always result in a worse connection than simply bolting the lug
directly to the terminal.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,

You have been very kind to offer your friends labor. Maybe I have not
climbed down far enough into this pack death madness yet. I was hoping
to put a set of 26 batts into one half of the pbox for daily driving
and then use the other half of the box for different chemistry
experiments. 

I was probably the one that told you of the screw in terminals. I found
a few brands that have them on their website. But when you ask about
them they cannot get them.

Do you know if Universal can get them in a screw terminal?

Thanks,

Mike


--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> The friend that did my box would be happy to make another one
> to carry the 4 additional batteries for your truck.
> 
> Someone else told me that there is a version of the UB121100
> that does not have flag-terminals but the bolt-in version.
> That could theoretically make all 26 x 110 AH batteries fit
> in the original box, but there will be hardly room to run
> cables, most likely you will need to use copper strip to
> be able to stack batteries less than 1/4" close to each other.
> 
> Let me know if you want to explore this further.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:35 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Battery Pack Heating
> 
> 
> Trust me, 4 strings was so NOT my idea. That's how I got the truck.
> It's bad. I spot tested a few Hawkers last night. Even the new ones
> that were 16 minutes at 40 amps are now 13 minute batterys. There
> could
> be a temperature curve in there. But the older batts went from 10
> minutes at 40 amps to 3-4 minutes last night. 
> 
> As much as I hate doing the work, maybe adding another box and going
> for the 100ah batts would simplify things after th einitial
> installation shock. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Don't lose the truck,
> > just make sure that all your strings have equal
> > internal resistance (so they share load) or aim
> > for a single string next time,
> > that way you lose more than half the problem. (IMHO)
> > 
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:08 PM
> > To: Roger Stockton
> > Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
> > 
> > 
> > There may be more, but ACP had Alan's orginal CRX with batterys
> > inside
> > the car like most converted ev's. Then they built at least two more
> > Hondas. One of which is a CRX the other is just slightly larger but
> > still a two door version. Then there is the Saturn as well. I've
> lost
> > track of the Tzeros as most have been sold. They still had a lead
> > acid
> > car down there. I know one Lion Tzero car that is up here around
> > Silicon Valley somewhere.
> > 
> > Typical is 220 wh/mi with no kindness to acceleration. I promise
> this
> > is a 14 second car.
> > 
> > If heating was not germaine to the packs life, ACP would not have
> > kept
> > putting it in their lead acid cars. 
> > 
> > One of the ACP owner/drivers doesn't watch for DOD at all. He
> drives
> > his car until the monitoring system shows 11 volts per battery
> under
> > light load. Which is about 40-50 amps in these cars. He gets 20-30k
> > from a pack in his daily driver. He has told me that getting 20-30k
> > is
> > routine in their cars. 
> > 
> > These guys plus the NREL report are enough proof for me to
> > investigate
> > and build thermal management into my truck. Maybe having Optimas is
> > the magic ingredient, but I have to do something constructive as 5k
> > miles per pack makes a 440 powered Chrysler look cheap to drive.
> That
> > is providing that I don't sell the truck first ;)
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 150 wh/mi is at very low speed on level ground. It's not
> > > > what a typical user generates in daily driving. This is
> > > > what I have observed riding in these cars.
> > > 
> > > So which "cars" are you referring to?  Alan's original (and
> only?)
> > CRX
> > > running Optimas or one or more Tzero's running Optimas?  I
> thought
> > there
> > > were only a couple Tzeros built and that at least one of them is
> > running
> > > a near-7000 cell Li pack, not lead-acid.
> > > 
> > > If 150Wh/mi is not typical, what have you observed to be typical
> in
> > > these cars?
> > > 
> > > > These are the weekly clues I get that tell me ACP's
> > > > battery management has great merit in making battery
> > > > life all it can be.
> > > 
> > > I'm a great believer in BMS.  You have provided nothing to
> suggest
> > to me
> > > that heating the batteries does anything to improve battery life
> in
> > a
> > > cyclic application.  My belief is that those who operate their
> > batteries
> > > at elevated temperatures do so to achieve the absolute greatest
> > range
> > > per charge, and that a good BMS may allow them to still achieve a
> > decent
> > > life *despite* the detrimental effects of elevated temperature on
> > the
> > > battery internals.
> > > 
> > > > I'd like to see what lead acid Ranger and EV1 owners use to get
> > from a
> > > > pack in terms of cycle life.   
> > > 
> > > There is no such thing as an EV1 owner; EV1's were leased, and I
> > doubt
> > > anyone will ever know what the true battery life was since the
> > factory
> > > service could include anything from swapping out weak modules
> > before the
> > > leasee ever noticed them to swapping out the entire pack, without
> > the
> > > user being any the wiser.
> > > 
> > > > What kind of EV do you own Roger?
> > > 
> > > Not sure why that is relevant, but mine is a 120V Suzuki Forsa
> > (Chevy
> > > Sprint) conversion presently loaded with YTs.  I suppose I should
> > be
> > > cheering you on to go ahead and cook a set of YTs so the rest of
> us
> > can
> > > learn on your dime what to do with our packs ;^>, but I can't
> help
> > but
> > > caution you when everything we know about lead acid batteries
> > suggests
> > > that elevated temperatures are at odds with maximising battery
> > life.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > Roger.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Here's to the crazy ones. 
> The misfits. 
> The rebels. 
> The troublemakers. 
> The round pegs in the square holes. 
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
> 
> www.RotorDesign.com
> 
> 


Here's to the crazy ones. 
The misfits. 
The rebels. 
The troublemakers. 
The round pegs in the square holes. 
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!

www.RotorDesign.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The problem is I have worked a lot of K&W's. This one isn't responding like the others. It acts like the resistor is too small. I used the eq switch & that helped but still not enough to allow me to get the amps down to where I'm used to having it at end of charge. 1 amp. BTW all the eq does is change the resistor value to charge highter .. I suspect this 102v setup isn't 102v......or I'm charging too high. is 124v the right voltage for a 96v pack. I thought it was. LR.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps. Wrong resistor?


Equalization switch?  What does that do (yeah, I know it's
supposed to "equalize" the batteries, but what specifically does
it do)?

I think it is time (if you haven't already done it) to unscrew
all those little screws on the front of the K&W, find the
resistor, and verify that it is the correct one (the instructions
had a table of resistors and their color coding).  I would also
verify that the resistor does indeed have the correct resistance.
If you haven't been inside a K&W before, this is no big deal.  If
you don't have the instruction sheet, unfortunately I no longer
have mine, but we can probably find one somewhere in this group
of EV'ers.

If you have a loose cable, enough to cause this problem,
especially a large gauge, high current one, and the car has been
driven, I think you would already know it, as in smoke or
meltdown.  Also, a loose cable would mean high resistance, so
your voltage would be higher and/or your current less for
charging.

Hey Lawrence, you've been doing EVs for a long time, and you're a
frequent EVDL contributor.  This ought to be chump change for
you.  Maybe you haven't worked with K&Ws before?

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps. Wrong
resistor?


I never installed the resistor.  Danny Ames did.  He also
installed an
equalization switch.  Now with the 102vdc eq on it is charging
the pack to
124vdc at 5 amps.  It won't fall any further.  I suspect I need
a different
resistor.  I'm aiming at full voltage and one amp at end of
charge.  Could
also be a loose cable somewhere causing trouble.  LR......
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps. Wrong
resistor?


> When I had my K&W BC-20 with a 96V pack of floodeds, if I had
the
> Voltage knob (I believe it was) cranked full clockwise, I
could
> see about 4A at 127V or so.  I used the 96V resistor per the
> instructions.  Are you sure you are reading the resistors
> correctly?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:15 AM
> Subject: 96v charge only goes to 121.5 & 5 amps. Wrong
resistor?
>
>
>> Got a K&WBC20 in Bob's Curbwatt & it's gassing & lost 5 of
it's
> 10 charging
>> amps.  It seems to be stalling at 121.5 @ 5 amps.  I'd think
it
> should go to
>> 124 and the amps drop to near zero.  It's a new pack of US
> 125's @ (96v /16
>> batteries).  The charger is setup with the 102v resistor.
> Maybe a different
>> resistor??????(the 108)
>> Lawrence Rhodes
>> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>> Reedmaker
>> Book 4/5 doubler
>> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>> Vegetable Oil Car.
>> 415-821-3519
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,

> You're wearing me out Roger.

Sorry; don't mean to.

As I said, I am interested in what you are planning to do, not only
because I am interested in EVs, and have a pack of YTs myself, but also
because I do battery charge algorithm development professionally and
just might be able to contribute in some small way as well as
benefitting from your research.

If you don't want to discuss any further, that's fine; I'll sit back and
wait for you to post what you did and what happened. ;^>

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW, can I have the url to your website that shows how you layed those
monster batterys out? Have you seen any info on their temperature
recommendations Cor?

Mike



--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> 
> The friend that did my box would be happy to make another one
> to carry the 4 additional batteries for your truck.
> 
> Someone else told me that there is a version of the UB121100
> that does not have flag-terminals but the bolt-in version.
> That could theoretically make all 26 x 110 AH batteries fit
> in the original box, but there will be hardly room to run
> cables, most likely you will need to use copper strip to
> be able to stack batteries less than 1/4" close to each other.
> 
> Let me know if you want to explore this further.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:35 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Battery Pack Heating
> 
> 
> Trust me, 4 strings was so NOT my idea. That's how I got the truck.
> It's bad. I spot tested a few Hawkers last night. Even the new ones
> that were 16 minutes at 40 amps are now 13 minute batterys. There could
> be a temperature curve in there. But the older batts went from 10
> minutes at 40 amps to 3-4 minutes last night. 
> 
> As much as I hate doing the work, maybe adding another box and going
> for the 100ah batts would simplify things after th einitial
> installation shock. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Don't lose the truck,
> > just make sure that all your strings have equal
> > internal resistance (so they share load) or aim
> > for a single string next time,
> > that way you lose more than half the problem. (IMHO)
> > 
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:08 PM
> > To: Roger Stockton
> > Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
> > 
> > 
> > There may be more, but ACP had Alan's orginal CRX with batterys
> > inside
> > the car like most converted ev's. Then they built at least two more
> > Hondas. One of which is a CRX the other is just slightly larger but
> > still a two door version. Then there is the Saturn as well. I've lost
> > track of the Tzeros as most have been sold. They still had a lead
> > acid
> > car down there. I know one Lion Tzero car that is up here around
> > Silicon Valley somewhere.
> > 
> > Typical is 220 wh/mi with no kindness to acceleration. I promise this
> > is a 14 second car.
> > 
> > If heating was not germaine to the packs life, ACP would not have
> > kept
> > putting it in their lead acid cars. 
> > 
> > One of the ACP owner/drivers doesn't watch for DOD at all. He drives
> > his car until the monitoring system shows 11 volts per battery under
> > light load. Which is about 40-50 amps in these cars. He gets 20-30k
> > from a pack in his daily driver. He has told me that getting 20-30k
> > is
> > routine in their cars. 
> > 
> > These guys plus the NREL report are enough proof for me to
> > investigate
> > and build thermal management into my truck. Maybe having Optimas is
> > the magic ingredient, but I have to do something constructive as 5k
> > miles per pack makes a 440 powered Chrysler look cheap to drive. That
> > is providing that I don't sell the truck first ;)
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <ev@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 150 wh/mi is at very low speed on level ground. It's not
> > > > what a typical user generates in daily driving. This is
> > > > what I have observed riding in these cars.
> > > 
> > > So which "cars" are you referring to?  Alan's original (and only?)
> > CRX
> > > running Optimas or one or more Tzero's running Optimas?  I thought
> > there
> > > were only a couple Tzeros built and that at least one of them is
> > running
> > > a near-7000 cell Li pack, not lead-acid.
> > > 
> > > If 150Wh/mi is not typical, what have you observed to be typical in
> > > these cars?
> > > 
> > > > These are the weekly clues I get that tell me ACP's
> > > > battery management has great merit in making battery
> > > > life all it can be.
> > > 
> > > I'm a great believer in BMS.  You have provided nothing to suggest
> > to me
> > > that heating the batteries does anything to improve battery life in
> > a
> > > cyclic application.  My belief is that those who operate their
> > batteries
> > > at elevated temperatures do so to achieve the absolute greatest
> > range
> > > per charge, and that a good BMS may allow them to still achieve a
> > decent
> > > life *despite* the detrimental effects of elevated temperature on
> > the
> > > battery internals.
> > > 
> > > > I'd like to see what lead acid Ranger and EV1 owners use to get
> > from a
> > > > pack in terms of cycle life.   
> > > 
> > > There is no such thing as an EV1 owner; EV1's were leased, and I
> > doubt
> > > anyone will ever know what the true battery life was since the
> > factory
> > > service could include anything from swapping out weak modules
> > before the
> > > leasee ever noticed them to swapping out the entire pack, without
> > the
> > > user being any the wiser.
> > > 
> > > > What kind of EV do you own Roger?
> > > 
> > > Not sure why that is relevant, but mine is a 120V Suzuki Forsa
> > (Chevy
> > > Sprint) conversion presently loaded with YTs.  I suppose I should
> > be
> > > cheering you on to go ahead and cook a set of YTs so the rest of us
> > can
> > > learn on your dime what to do with our packs ;^>, but I can't help
> > but
> > > caution you when everything we know about lead acid batteries
> > suggests
> > > that elevated temperatures are at odds with maximising battery
> > life.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > Roger.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Here's to the crazy ones. 
> The misfits. 
> The rebels. 
> The troublemakers. 
> The round pegs in the square holes. 
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
> 
> www.RotorDesign.com
>





--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
> I wouldn't use cables like this in anything heavier than a NEV 
> (about 1500lbs) unless I was running fairly high voltage, but if 
> it works for you in your application and you don't mind the look, 
> go for it.

Correct, my 5000# truck has a 312V pack, max 200A draw and I have
most cables at 2 AWG. Works well.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Which battery terminals would be at least satisfactory in
my specific application?


Mark Freidberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>   How would I tell if they are "premade?"  The 2 AWG cables 
> read "Cobra Wire & Cable, Inc. E51293"

A quick web search turns this up as marine battery cable (i.e. tinned
strands), but does not clarify if your interconnects might have been
bought premade or not.  Premade or not, your best bet is to measure the
voltage drop while running some known current through them; if the
voltage drop is low enough, then they are fine.

> What about this idea? Just double them up, 2 per
> interconnection instead of 1. If I specified flag terminals,
> I could place one lug on each side of the terminal.

Sure, you could do this, if you have enough cables.  In the grand scheme
of things, cable and terminals are pretty cheap items, and I personally
would not attempt to reuse cables from some other system just to save
the $100-150 associated with making up a proper set that fits *my*
system.

It is unlikely that the premade cables are the right lengths for your
installation, so you will end up with cables that are just a bit too
short or a somewhat too long; either the cable is stressed by being
tight, or it may have excess length flopping about that could cause you
grief eventually.

If you go with paralleled cables, you can never be sure how the current
will divide between them, so it is always a bit riskier than using a
single appropriately sized cable (though the risk may still be small in
your case).

>   When I had eight 39ah Hawkers temporarily connected they 
> were good for 4 miles in my hill-plentiful neighborhood and 
> the amp draws peaked out around 217 amps during brief climbs. 
> Nothing was warm afterwards except a single 4 ft. long 4 AWG 
> cable connection..

If your peak amp draws really are this low, then you might well get by
with using a single set of the #2 cables.  However, unless you have a
very light vehicle and/or a very wimpy controller, you will likely find
that you sustain current draws of a couple hundred amps for a fair time
climbing longer hills or holding speed on a grade for a mile or two.  I
wouldn't use cables like this in anything heavier than a NEV (about
1500lbs) unless I was running fairly high voltage, but if it works for
you in your application and you don't mind the look, go for it.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is an image of the advertised genset
http://geocities.com/brucedp/images/3kwgenset.jpg
I am going to go after work to check it out.

If the specs on teh box rate it with a higher continuous 
output rating higher than 2200 watts, I may consider 
changing the 5-20 duplex outlet and 20 amp breaker to a 
L5-30 and a 30 amp breaker. 

I may not be able to pull 30 amps, but I would be able 
to pull the full amount of power the genset was designed for
using my PFC-30 charger without burning out the genset's 
windings.



Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter

' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV album #694

http://www.evalbum.com/694.html

I have a sketch on paper for the total pack
but need to scan it and it's at home.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 3:07 PM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: single string, was: Battery Pack Heating


BTW, can I have the url to your website that shows how you layed those
monster batterys out? Have you seen any info on their temperature
recommendations Cor?

Mike



--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike,
> 
> The friend that did my box would be happy to make another one
> to carry the 4 additional batteries for your truck.
> 
> Someone else told me that there is a version of the UB121100
> that does not have flag-terminals but the bolt-in version.
> That could theoretically make all 26 x 110 AH batteries fit
> in the original box, but there will be hardly room to run
> cables, most likely you will need to use copper strip to
> be able to stack batteries less than 1/4" close to each other.
> 
> Let me know if you want to explore this further.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:35 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Battery Pack Heating
> 
> 
> Trust me, 4 strings was so NOT my idea. That's how I got the truck.
> It's bad. I spot tested a few Hawkers last night. Even the new ones
> that were 16 minutes at 40 amps are now 13 minute batterys. There could
> be a temperature curve in there. But the older batts went from 10
> minutes at 40 amps to 3-4 minutes last night. 
> 
> As much as I hate doing the work, maybe adding another box and going
> for the 100ah batts would simplify things after th einitial
> installation shock. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Don't lose the truck,
> > just make sure that all your strings have equal
> > internal resistance (so they share load) or aim
> > for a single string next time,
> > that way you lose more than half the problem. (IMHO)
> > 
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks   eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:08 PM
> > To: Roger Stockton
> > Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
> > 
> > 
> > There may be more, but ACP had Alan's orginal CRX with batterys
> > inside
> > the car like most converted ev's. Then they built at least two more
> > Hondas. One of which is a CRX the other is just slightly larger but
> > still a two door version. Then there is the Saturn as well. I've lost
> > track of the Tzeros as most have been sold. They still had a lead
> > acid
> > car down there. I know one Lion Tzero car that is up here around
> > Silicon Valley somewhere.
> > 
> > Typical is 220 wh/mi with no kindness to acceleration. I promise this
> > is a 14 second car.
> > 
> > If heating was not germaine to the packs life, ACP would not have
> > kept
> > putting it in their lead acid cars. 
> > 
> > One of the ACP owner/drivers doesn't watch for DOD at all. He drives
> > his car until the monitoring system shows 11 volts per battery under
> > light load. Which is about 40-50 amps in these cars. He gets 20-30k
> > from a pack in his daily driver. He has told me that getting 20-30k
> > is
> > routine in their cars. 
> > 
> > These guys plus the NREL report are enough proof for me to
> > investigate
> > and build thermal management into my truck. Maybe having Optimas is
> > the magic ingredient, but I have to do something constructive as 5k
> > miles per pack makes a 440 powered Chrysler look cheap to drive. That
> > is providing that I don't sell the truck first ;)
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <ev@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 150 wh/mi is at very low speed on level ground. It's not
> > > > what a typical user generates in daily driving. This is
> > > > what I have observed riding in these cars.
> > > 
> > > So which "cars" are you referring to?  Alan's original (and only?)
> > CRX
> > > running Optimas or one or more Tzero's running Optimas?  I thought
> > there
> > > were only a couple Tzeros built and that at least one of them is
> > running
> > > a near-7000 cell Li pack, not lead-acid.
> > > 
> > > If 150Wh/mi is not typical, what have you observed to be typical in
> > > these cars?
> > > 
> > > > These are the weekly clues I get that tell me ACP's
> > > > battery management has great merit in making battery
> > > > life all it can be.
> > > 
> > > I'm a great believer in BMS.  You have provided nothing to suggest
> > to me
> > > that heating the batteries does anything to improve battery life in
> > a
> > > cyclic application.  My belief is that those who operate their
> > batteries
> > > at elevated temperatures do so to achieve the absolute greatest
> > range
> > > per charge, and that a good BMS may allow them to still achieve a
> > decent
> > > life *despite* the detrimental effects of elevated temperature on
> > the
> > > battery internals.
> > > 
> > > > I'd like to see what lead acid Ranger and EV1 owners use to get
> > from a
> > > > pack in terms of cycle life.   
> > > 
> > > There is no such thing as an EV1 owner; EV1's were leased, and I
> > doubt
> > > anyone will ever know what the true battery life was since the
> > factory
> > > service could include anything from swapping out weak modules
> > before the
> > > leasee ever noticed them to swapping out the entire pack, without
> > the
> > > user being any the wiser.
> > > 
> > > > What kind of EV do you own Roger?
> > > 
> > > Not sure why that is relevant, but mine is a 120V Suzuki Forsa
> > (Chevy
> > > Sprint) conversion presently loaded with YTs.  I suppose I should
> > be
> > > cheering you on to go ahead and cook a set of YTs so the rest of us
> > can
> > > learn on your dime what to do with our packs ;^>, but I can't help
> > but
> > > caution you when everything we know about lead acid batteries
> > suggests
> > > that elevated temperatures are at odds with maximising battery
> > life.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > Roger.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Here's to the crazy ones. 
> The misfits. 
> The rebels. 
> The troublemakers. 
> The round pegs in the square holes. 
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
> 
> www.RotorDesign.com
>




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:13:28 -0700, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


>One possible issue I've thought of: trailer brakes.  Does anyone have 
>any suggestions on adding trailer brakes to the front clip of a 
>front-wheel-drive vehicle?  My EV won't have power brakes and I'm a bit 
>worried about the extra weight of a pusher trailer.  I'd like it to 
>have its own brakes.

An inertial hitch will do the job.  This hitch has a hydraulic
cylinder built in and uses the trailer's inertia to apply the brakes.
Since the pusher will be "pushing" on the vehicle during normal
operation, you'd want one with a "back up solenoid".  This solenoid
valve normally connects to the reverse light circuit and closes off
the hydraulic circuit when backing up.  In this application you'd
connect it to the brake light circuit so that the inertia hitch only
operates when the vehicle's brakes are applied.

>There should also be a kill switch in case the pusher trailer bursts 
>into flames or loses a wheel or something along those lines.

Hmmm, an explosive bolt on the hitch ball would work.... :-)

>
>I don't know if you need to care about the gas gauge.  Hopefully it 
>will have enough range to make you want to stop occasionally, at which 
>point you can check the gauge in the trailer.  And if you run out of 
>gas, you still have the EV to pull it hopefully to the next gas 
>station.  Or, you could hook it up to the unused gas gauge in your EV's 
>dashboard.  Or throw an extra gas can in the back of the pusher 
>trailer.  I plan to have some storage space in my pusher.  Why not?  
>It's a trailer, after all.

If it's a gas pusher I'd probably just include another can of gas.  If
diesel, I'd probably want some sort of indication, even if it was just
an idiot light because diesels can be picky about starting after
running out of fuel.

I suggest using marine gas tanks with the quick-connect hose fittings
like outboard motors use.  I've converted my generators over to that
system.  It sure is nice to be able to take only the gas tanks to the
gas station and then not have to mess with pouring fuel.  You could
use, say, a 10 gallon marine tank permanently mounted in the pusher
and have a 5 or 7 gallon tank in the "trunk".  When the main one runs
out, just unclip the hose from the permanent one and move it to the
portable tank.

One of my generators is diesel.  A diesel (and EFI gas engines) needs
a return line for injector leakage and bypass.  On that one I used the
dual hose that was used on old pressure-fed outboards.  (Those old
motors had an air compressor onboard that pressurized the gas tank.)
Dual hose quick-couples are still available.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson

--- End Message ---

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