EV Digest 5337
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Orb Carnage....
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Crazy DC regen idea
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Multi charger.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A cleaner EV genset.
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ghiamonster Adapter Plate Pics
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: '74 MG electric on eBay - Nobody wants EVs? Somewhat long
by "August Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Crazy DC regen idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Multi charger.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Orb Carnage....
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Orb Carnage....
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 1986 Escort EV in SF Bay Area for $500 with GE motor
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: A cleaner EV genset.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Multi charger.
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Crazy DC regen idea
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Was the "bad" battery reversed in its entirety and does the
reg short-circuit when reverse-connected?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:42 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Orb Carnage....
On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Well Lee hart.. the 32 volt ATO fuse WILL shut down a 144 volt
> 1000 amp arc... and put the fire out... And for sure a Mk2B reg won't
> live to tell about it.... Fine I have plenty of those!!
So what exactly happened here? What made the fuse on the regulator
blow?
You were under hard acceleration, drawing heavy amps from your pack.
Then what happened?
I hypothesize your battery suffered a cell reversal or a short, heated
up fast, boiled the electrolyte and blew open. But why would that run
a thousand amps of pack voltage through a regulator?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Lee, Ryan, all
As someone who just happened to get a job out of school after being bugged by
a friend for months (I liked where I was working Poor pay, hot babes, lmao)
(not a lot of babes in the forklift motor business, hehe). Against my better
judgment I applied at Beech Electric and have been trapped building motors ever
since, I even moved to Oregon and the bastards found me, lmao!! What I'm
getting at is I've built a lot of motors and I know them forward backward
inside out and in my sleep. But I lacked any true understanding of what made
them tick. My job is getting the pole shoes to seat without pulling ribs out
or applying insulation shims if the coil is to loose so it won't vibrate and go
to ground, that kind of thing. I've gotten pretty intuitive over the years
probably caused by a lot of school of hard knock lessons 8^ )
On the other side of the coin I can listen to a comment or idea and know
whether it would work with the motors pre-existing design. As I read your last
post I was thinking as to the feasibility and kept thinking that this could be
done and as a matter of fact was thinking to myself that I could do this. To
read on down and see Lee ask me directly as to whether I can do this, my short
answer is yes but I have a couple of questions.
1) A lot of armatures are odd numbered in the bar and slot count. In this
case would you just connect to the closest to the 180 degree winding? It's
like trying to line up a 13 hour clock.
2) Would it matter where you connected to the winding? Could you connect to
the back knuckle area where it bends under (fan side) or up by the comm.? If
it can connect right there by the slip rings and on the bend area then to
connect there via a tough jumper and silver solder connections could be done
without degrading the actual windings inside the lamination's and then could be
hand glyptaled. Will need to make it able to stand same rpm's as the comm.
3) I would need to be directed to or be supplied the slip ring (DC guy
remember, hehe). I could supply the diameter of the shaft and the length and
height info. I'd imagine I'd need to trim the shaft to fit a standard slip
ring bore.
To recap: Slip ring + Jim = Stupid, lmao!! So if you can point me out such a
critter I could in fact attach it to the shaft and make the connections.
4) Could we do this with a smaller motor and smaller voltages to test it
out? I have a few 6" 24 volt motors I could use and as a matter of fact I just
did the shaft mod's to make them keyway shafts (for just such emergencies,
lol.)(were to be future pocket bike racers but this works to, hehehe).
5) You up to an H&H project?? I can get you pics and some basic motor specs
and you supply slip rings and we'll get Wayland or Rudman to torture (I mean
test it, Hehehe)
It seems there would need to be a mount up to the drive plate with a cable
running out a cooling window rather that the face which of course is used to
mate the motor with. I'm sure there would have to be a least one hurdle to
jump over before it was all over with but this is in fact something that "could
be done" in terms of things like space available, and the general nature of the
motors design and within my abilities, that is as long as someone tells me
which slip ring to use, 8 ^ )
When Wayland came to me and we discussed options and a little dreaming I
liked the Siamese8 option as it truly challeged me to create something
different and tested me in what I could do (I = a lot of help from a lot of
people) to a motor. It woke me up from many years and thousands of repeated
rebuilds that became quiet frankly mundane. So for me what started as a
personal challenge has led to an adventure leading me to you good people. This
in turn has lead to a few "hey Jim can you do this?" so far I have been able to
do or am gearing up to do, but remember ( I = a lot of help from a lot of
people) 8^ ) The two biggest needs for this community as I see it are
infrastructure and R&D.
Okay sorry I got windy here I see it's way longer than needed but I'll end
with this. I like this idea as it can be added to a vast number of motors it's
fairly simple and could be a future out of box designs. On a personal nature
getting the regen kink worked out of these DC motors would be pretty cool stuff
and I would take great pride in such a project. Lee your awesome, love your
posts and I've learned much from them. Let me know on / off list where one
could obtain? what size needed, you know the brain stuff, I'm kinda like the
brawn part (Yep, all 145Lbs, lmao).
I know when the wife slaps me it's time to run 8^ )
Best idea I've seen in 10 months of being here very doable as long as it will
work... Will it??
Hope you enjoyed
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Not all is lost. It *did* cause me to come up with a related idea.
Take the fan out of an Advanced DC series motor. Use the extra inch or
two of length to add a set of 3 slip rings. Connect these slip rings to
6 equal-distant points around the windings (6 points because it's a
4-pole motor; it would be 3 points for a 2-pole motor, etc.) In other
words, if the slip rings are named A, B, and C, then A connects to the
windings at 0 and 180 degrees, B at 60 and 240 degrees, and C at 120 and
300 degrees.
Motoring operation is completely unaffected. But if you measure the
voltage at the slip rings, you will find perfectly sinusoidal 3-phase
AC, whose peak is equal to the DC armature voltage. (You have created a
rotary converter).
Connect rectifiers to the slip rings, exactly as you would for an
alternator. Now you have rectified DC, equal to whatever the armature
voltage is. However, you can load this output with *no risk of arcing*,
no matter what the brush advance!
To use it for regen, use the controller to power just the series field
winding. Take your DC output from the rectified slip rings. Control the
amount of regen with the field current, exactly like a generator. Now
you have high power regen, with zero risk of brush arcing!
To Jim Husted; What do you think? Can you add a set of slip rings?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lore and fact....
I use 14.80 on all my AGMs. It is infact derived from the exact requirements
for Optima Yellow tops.
I have found that it works as planed and studied.
Not Lore But Fact.
The Rudman Regs start blinking at 14.80 and hold the battery there for many
amphours. They lock on solid when the volts are about 1 volt over the
threshold. The Reg with the Regbuss installed back to the charger also pulls
the charger's current back every time they fire. So in effect if a Reg can't
keep the battery at 14.80, then it tells the charger to reduces current so
the regs Are not forced into a Constant on condition. If any Reg over heats
the Hot Reg line goes %100 active and the charger shuts down in about 2. to
5 seconds. Once a reg Cools and drops the hot reg signal, the charger
resumes it's charge with the regs pulling it back in a almost linear
fashion.
So.... did I make it clear enough??? I use 14.8.
You can adjust the Regs from about 14.0 to 16.2 volts as you wish.
You can program the Mk3 Reg from 0 to 25 volts... and they will try to
attian your setting.
They leave here set to 14.80 volts in a 60 Deg F shop.
At this time I really don't care what the battery PhD say... I have enough
time doing what I am good at to get the results that I need.
6 years on a Set of Yts and about 50 drag racing passes a year.. and I still
had 10 miles range when I updated to Orbitals. That's pretty good life.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> Is 14.8v tuned for full on or for just starting to blink?
>
> My BS detector is plugged up, so it's hard to distinguish between lore
> and fact right now ;)
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Clampers is a term that only you use.
> >
> > I use 14.80 volts for AGMs. I tune them for 14.8? volts
> >
> > Some of us just know....
> >
> > Most AGMs, have a peak cyclic charge voltage speced on the Sticker...
> >
> > It's a matter of reading the instruction that come on the
> > battereis....
> >
> > And for some of us we have 1.5 decades of abusing AGM lead acid
> > batteries...
> > The BS detector and years of watching them charge...tells us what we
> > need to
> > know.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 10:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> >
> >
> > > And a fine invention it is!
> > >
> > > Tell me why they are not clampers?
> > >
> > > They really work that well eh? Cool. That assumes that the voltage
> > they
> > > are set at is correct, right?
> > >
> > > So what is a correct voltage for AGM for instance? How do you go
> > about
> > > finding out the correct voltage? Voltage? Boiling point?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > They are called Regs...not clampers.
> > > > Yes they equalize.. and very well I might add. That's why I
> > invented
> > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > I find you more than double the life span with Regs. Maybe even
> > by a
> > > > factor
> > > > of 5.
> > > >
> > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: "Rich Rudman" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 10:05 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rich,
> > > > >
> > > > > Do clampers qualify as equalization? I know that sounds
> > obvious,
> > > > but I
> > > > > still wonder if making the voltage the same on each AGM is
> > enough
> > > > make
> > > > > them last longer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The thread the keeps going here is ... Brutal series charger
> > and
> > > > > small low
> > > > > > power modular chargers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see the merit there since the little chargers act like
> > Additive
> > > > > Regs, and
> > > > > > of course have thier own voltage regulation and float
> > settings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I am picking on is using the small chargers or low
> > quality
> > > > 20 amp
> > > > > > modular chargers. These seam to have some serious trouble
> > with
> > > > > reliability.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any path will get the job done.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On AGMs you have to have more than just a high power series
> > > > > charger.. you
> > > > > > have to get the equalization done some how or loose the pack
> > in a
> > > > hurry.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When you can't get a battery to equalize... you other issues
> > to
> > > > worry
> > > > > > about....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:21 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rich and All,
> > > > > > > Although I agree that people like Bill Dube' had trouble
> > with
> > > > modular
> > > > > > > charging in the past, due to problems with the chargers
> > that
> > > > John
> > > > > Bryan
> > > > > > > mentioned, I will say again that my AGM's have been very
> > happy
> > > > with 16
> > > > > > > individual five amp Soneil (1212SR) chargers (and the
> > > > > FrankenLesters for
> > > > > > 30
> > > > > > > amp bulk charging). For poor folks like me, modular
> > charging is
> > > > > usually
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > > only option at the moment, and John Bryan was a major
> > > > inspiration
> > > > > to my
> > > > > > > decision to go that route!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 50,000 plus eelectric miles on the buggies, and a counting,
> > > > > > > Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
> > > > > > > Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
> > > > > > > http://www.devc.org/
> > > > > > > Card carrying member and former racer with The National
> > > > Electric Drag
> > > > > > > Racing Association:
> > > > > > > http://www.nedra.com/
> > > > > > > Lyons, CO
> > > > > > > 1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenagers)
> > > > > > > 1989 GM (General Murderers of the EV-1!) S10 (144V of
> > floodies,
> > > > for Pa
> > > > > > only!)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > >Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 10:44:04 -0700
> > > > > > > <snippage>
> > > > > > > >I still think the Modular chargers have a weak point and
> > that
> > > > is the
> > > > > > Failure
> > > > > > > >rate gets multiplied by the number of units running.
> > > > > > > >We tried this on this list.. and had some pretty serious
> > > > failures...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Making tons of little chargers... has it's merits, but I
> > don't
> > > > > think it
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > >survive the rigors of a on road EV for very long.
> > > > > > > <snippage>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > The misfits.
> > > The rebels.
> > > The troublemakers.
> > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > The ones who see things differently
> > > The ones that change the world!!
> > >
> > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/6/06, Jay wrote:
> Propane, which runs much cleaner than gasoline.
But does it really though?
Burning a gallon of gasoline produces X amount of CO2?
Burning a gallon of liquid propane produces X amount of CO2?
Now supposedly, human CO2 emissions are the biggest problem right now
when it comes to emissions? Is that what "global warming" is about?
I've never understood this. Supposedly, the earth's atmosphere is 78%
nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% other. So how can CO2 output cause
"global warming" when it consists of such a small part of the
atmosphere? What happens when a volcano lets go and releases massive
amounts of whatever it releases?
http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article354055.ece
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Steve
Looks like your gonna run some 8"s but I was wondering why the one motor is
inverted?
As to the adapter I bet ol' Jay Donnaway is just beside himself (being a Ghia
adapter plate collector, hehe) but as to your motors damn it man you scratched
them 8^ P
BTW do you know Jay?? those scatch marks look familure...
having some fun
Great pics
Cya
Jim husted
Steve Marks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi All,
Well, I finally got some pictures back from the builder on the adapter
plates for the Ghiamonster. You can see them at:
http://www.ghiamonster.com/images/adapterplates
I gather that they're still not complete but I think you'll get a rough idea
on what they're going to look like and how they're going to function.
Steve
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel Hacker wrote:
> To get around the Inductive loading causing a poor Power Factor,
> couldn't you place some low ESR, induction motor capacitors in
> parallel with the load and bring the power factor closer to 1.0?
Closer, but you'll never get to 1.0 that way.
A plain old transformer-rectifier charger will have a power factor of
around 0.7-0.8. A constant-voltage transformer based charger is a bit
better; a non-PFC switchmode power supply is a bit lower.
A PF of 0.75 means 10 amps from your generator only gives you 7.5 amps
of actual charging current. I.e. you can only get 75% of the generator's
rated power output before it overheats.
Adding the optimal value of capacitance across the line will improve the
power factor by about 0.1. With a Lester constant-voltage transformer,
this gets you very close to 1.0; a plain transformer-rectifer becomes
0.8-0.9, and a switcher 0.7-0.8.
To do better still, you need an LC filter; both a capacitor and an
inductor. This type of passive power factor correction is
straightforward and efficient, but the parts are big and heavy. Also,
you have to "tune" it for be optimized at one power level; the power
factor will be different at other loads.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Minor correction, the Bug was $995 in 1962, not $595.
August
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of August Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 5:42 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: '74 MG electric on eBay - Nobody wants EVs? Somewhat long
David Roden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Anyone who's been in the EV world for more than 20 years has seen this
>cycle
>many times. The price of fuel goes up and/or availability becomes limited
>abruptly<, and there's an equally abrupt flood of interest in EVs, with the
>concomitant spike in value for used examples. Gradually the cost of fuel
>recedes; EV interest and EV prices ebb right along with it.
>
>Long term, the cost of fuel continues to rise.
-----------------
Now August Says:
Here's where most people <Including Me> often forget to pay attention to
reality. Yes, fuel cost has risen in ABSOLUTE Un-adjusted for Inflation
Dollars. However, if you adjust for inflation, you will see that gasoline
TODAY is no more expensive than in 1962! Use the US Governments own CPI
Inflation calculator at:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
Put in $2.40 in 2006 and see what it tells you about buying power in 1962
($$0.37) or in 1975 ($0.65). That's exactly what Gas cost in those years. I
saw it with my own eyes. No change in price except for inflation.
Also, using the US Governments figure on Minimum Wage:
http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/chart.htm
You see the similar trend? $1.00 in 1961-1963, $2.00 in 1975, $5.15
1997-Present. And we all know that there are calls to raise the Minimum
Wage.
It actually costs LESS today to drive a mile than in 1962 because cars today
get FAR better mileage. I had a 1967 Mercury Cougar in 1975 (My First Car)
with a 289 V8 - 2BBL Carb & 3speed manual, I didn't think it was all that
cheap to run at $0.65/gal. Yes, that's what gas actually cost back then,
exactly what the CPI Inflation calculator said it would.
In 1961 or 1962, I remember the VW ads in the car magazines my father
bought. Most people remember them for the neat advertising material, but you
also need to remember that the advertised price was $595. (By the way, if
you want to complain about price increases, put that $595 Bug in the
calculator for 1962. Only $3914 in 2006. I want any new car at that price
today!) They were by far the highest MPG car at "30 MPG". Well that's what
they said, but I'll bet they didn't get actual numbers that high. Also it
only had a 40 HP engine. 40 Highly Inflated Horsepower! Slug slow 0-60
times!
So, as a percentage of our total expenditures, what we pay for gas has
actually DECREASED since at least as far back as 1962. No wonder there's no
more cry for an Electric Car today than there was in the past. We now spend
more money on Luxury Items and other things (TV, computer, recreational
things, etc.) than ever before. Remember, Incomes have risen also so we can
keep up with all the things that we didn't need before.
I'm not someone who is against electric cars, after all I bought the 1988
Chevy Sprint that Otmar had for sale. I drive it almost daily. Even with
it's rather wimpy Brusa AMC200 AC drive, it'd give a 1962 VW Bug a run for
it's money. But there's no way that I'd have an electric car as my only
vehicle. I'd keep my 2002 Chevy Astro instead. And I'm a family of one! I
need the range and cargo hauling capacity. The electric car is a luxury for
me.
Think about it, you'll see why there's no huge outcry for Electric Vehicles.
August Johnson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> I was thinking as to the feasibility [of adding slip rings]...
> my short answer is yes, but I have a couple of questions.
>
> 1) A lot of armatures are odd numbered in the bar and slot count.
> In this case would you just connect to the closest to the 180
> degree winding? It's like trying to line up a 13 hour clock.
Correct; close is good enough if you are just going to rectify the AC.
If you wanted to use it to run a 3-phase AC load it would matter, but
not for rectification.
> 2) Would it matter where you connected to the winding? Could you
> connect to the back knuckle area where it bends under (fan side)
> or up by the comm?
Yes, if I understand you.
I'm assuming a normal series motor, which has a single wire in each
armature slot. Each wire is a U-shaped piece; one leg goes in one slot
and connects to a commutator bar; the other leg goes in a different slot
and connects to another commutator bar. Each bar actually has the ends
of two wires connected to it.
Thus each wire-in-a-slot is half a turn of a 1-turn coil. All these
coils are in series. If there are (say) 10 bars between the +brush and
-brush, then you have a 10-turn coil between them. In a 4-pole motor (2
+ and 2 - brushes), there are four such 10-turn coils in parallel.
Ideally, you'd connect the slip rings to the commutator bars themselves.
But this is physically awkward; there's no extra room for slip rings at
the commutator end.
That's why I suggested putting them at the fan end. Just connect the
slip rings to the loop of wire at the fan end, somewhere along the path
after it has come out of one slot and before it goes back in another
slot part way around the armature. What I think you are calling the
"knuckle area".
> If it can connect on the bend area, then... connect via a tough jumper
> and silver solder connections could be done without degrading the
> actual windings inside the lamination's and then could be hand
> glyptaled. Will need to make it able to stand same rpm's as the comm.
Right! It could be done without doing any unrepairable damage to the
wire.
> 3) I would need to be directed to or be supplied the slip ring (DC
> guy remember, hehe).
I was hoping you'd know that :-) If you can get commutators somewhere,
you should be able to get slip rings, too. They have used them for as
long as they have commutators.
If they aren't available as repair parts, at least they are a simpler
structure to make. Just a stack of copper disks and insulating washers,
lengthwise holes to allow connecting wires, and a pair of nuts on the
shaft to clamp them all together. Run it on a lathe to true it up.
The harder part might be to find brusholders for it. Maybe cannibalize
it off from an old wound-rotor AC motor, or DC motor that can be
modified to mount the brushes at right angles to their normal
orientation?
> 4) Could we do this with a smaller motor and smaller voltages to test
> it out?
Sure! An automotive alternator has a pair of slip rings to steal. Only
good for a few amps, though.
> 5) You up to an H&H project?
Could be fun! Rotary converters like this have long been used for DC-AC
and AC-DC conversion. They are surprisingly efficient; more efficient
than the motor they are built with. I've long thought of this as a way
to use an EV's motor as a portable AC power plant, but never thought it
would be wirth the trouble. But if it provides easy regen, that's a big
plus!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yo Neon
I think Industrial 480 three phase has a totally differnent pricing
structure than 240 single phase.
You might save some coin by going 3 phase...Might....
It would cost me $6 bucks, and gets me 300 miles down the road.
We don't have a demand charge.. we have 8 cents a Kwhr... And less if we use
more.
And yes I am in a industrial park....Not my home. And it wouldn't matter.
I am not paying anybodies Freight... My client wants this charger....I have
not advocated it for the general public...though it would be a neat trick.
I don't know anybody that would dare charger there EV at 400 amps...Even The
Wayland Esque Dump charging doesn't get this high for very long.
Clearly... I would not want to install in a envorment that has that kind of
a pricing structure. Since I have 200 amps of 480 available....
I am not sure I have your concernes at all.
Good point though, I have never asked..and I have never drawn more than 40
Kw for a few hours. That will change soon.
The biggest single phase PFC charger is a 12.5Kw PFC50..Wayland will get
one that can draw 18Kw..If he can find 75 amps of 240.
It's refreshing to hear that you can't understand it.... It shows some of
your limited thinking.
Down time cost...my cleint doesn't want much down time...
Simple math... The bigger the charger..the more money he can make in a given
time.
I am not checking his power bill... That's not my job.
I will of course check mine since I just cut a $364 dollar check for 4.550
Megawatt hours of heating power aka charger thermal testing for the last 60
days.
I am sure the property owner will inform me when I qualify him for a higher
Demand structure.
The last I checked I was still fully dressed, and still decent.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
> On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:28:40 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Yo.... Neon..
> > My Big stuff IS isolated...
> >For just that reason.
> > Half the weight is a isolation transformer.
> >Plus you can't even get into the main breaker without a Key.
> >And there's a different key to turn it on. And a stack of interlocks to
make
> >it darn hard for the stinger to go hot when it's not supposed to.
> >There's more hardware involved in the Saftey interlocks on the 75K than a
> >Little PFC20 is worth.
> >
> >Find another point to pick on.
>
> Yo Rick. I ain't pickin' on ya. Put yer paranoid back in yer pants.
> As an individual, I like your chargers but as a businessman, no way.
>
> How many outfits do you suppose will be willing to install a 75kw
> charger for public access? Or pay the demand charges. Here, where
> the power rates are among the cheapest in the nation, one 15 minute
> session at 75KW would cost me $222 that month just for the demand
> charges which do not include the cost of the energy. (These numbers
> are from before last month's 9% rate increase. I don't know if the
> demand charges have changed with the rate increase or not.)
>
> Here, I can run up to 48KVA (200 amp, 240 volt) without demand
> charges. I'd have to have a second meter with its $8/month meter
> charge plus the energy costs to do that. If mine was a business with
> light electrical demand (it isn't - I have 2 200 amp services for my
> restaurant) and could dedicate, say, 100 amps of my service to
> charging, that would be about 24KVA. That would fit nicely with your
> 20KW charger. Have you changed designs or is that one still not
> isolated?
>
> I can't imagine a business case to be made for spending several
> thousand dollars on the charger install and the exposure to almost
> $250/month recurring demand charges, not including the energy cost. As
> a small businessman, I can't afford to "make a statement" or do
> something "feel-good" even if I wanted to, which I don't. What would
> generate enough revenue to even return my costs on the system?
>
> Now, if a local EV group approached me and offered to contribute part
> or all of the installation cost then that's a whole 'nuther ball of
> electrons. In any bleeding edge endeavor, the early adopters have to
> pay to pave the way for the followers to come. Many EVers think that
> somehow someone else is going to pay the freight but that just ain't
> gonna happen.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No the Regs don't do a darn thing until the voltage peak is reached.
Brand X Regs did a LOT of charge shutteling and never stoped.. this
drained the batteries given time... and not much time I hear.
My stuff doesn't do active equalization... until it needs to.
If you run a pack...of AGM at least in the 30 to %70 range.. for very
long... the Unequalization effects WILL push a couple of batteries above the
peak voltage.. This may take half a dozzen cycle strokes...
One of the sage lines from battery books is... you really don't know the
state of charge of a battery.. Unless it loaded, and you tracked it for a
few cycles or..If it's totaly full. At the given paramerter for %100
charged. Since this is a acceptable algorythm for Lead Acid... My regs are
doing thier thing for the right reasons.
... On a Hybrid pack that never gets to %100 full... some other form of
equalization trigger is going to be needed. How that is implimented depends
on the pack chemistry, and how many Watt hours are needed to keep each pack,
Module,Cell, or battery in equalization.
Doing subtractive equalization... without a peak detect point...is going to
take some brains. First you need to determin if a Cell/battery needs to be
added to in Amphours or subtracted from to get the pack average back into
line. That requires some recorded knowledge of what is right and what is
wrong. With this charge history information.. You can add or remove watts
from the batteries that need attention.
With Subtractive Regs... you simply dump the Watthour need to bring the Fat
ones back into line with the Average. This can be down with the Mk3 Regs,
But setting the voltage threshold down until they reg fires and starts
blowing off watts to drag the Fat ones back into line.
This is not a action that I support right now with my Chargers and Regs.
but I have done it by laptop manually. So... the Master control program that
would track this kind of equalization... could do this function.
So I have the tools for the feature...it just has to be written and tested.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> Rich, do they equalize only if you charge completely?
> E.g. id one choose for whatever reason to cycle between
> 30% and 70% SOC, do your regs do any given that they have
> pre-set limits?
>
> Now, I'm not asking whether people should cycle within
> that narrow SOC range. I'm only curious how the regs technically work.
>
> Victor
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > They are called Regs...not clampers.
> > Yes they equalize.. and very well I might add. That's why I invented
them.
> >
> > I find you more than double the life span with Regs. Maybe even by a
factor
> > of 5.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Think about it Doug..
First Yes, I was RACING,
Yes My foot was to the floor and I just shifted to 3rd.
So the motor amps were at last 4 digits...The battery amps were not far
behind.....
It's a Raptor.. so I don't have a actual data log.
I Opened a battery. It vented.... H2SO4.. fumes were present.
When the battery opened the entire string voltage...Sans the one that was
being opened gets impressed acros the one open battery. And that had a Mk2B
reg on it. 144 volts is
Kinda WAY beyond the 60 volt maximum that a Reg's protection diode can
survive, Massive amps flow in a cascading failure.. the Fuse blows.
You hear a Bang and lift and Cringe... and what ever fire was present .. is
extingished. I am pretty sure the plasma jet was over before I lifted, but
it was a Very quick BANG! Hiss.
No.. the fail was definatley a interconnect opening, Since it left me with
out any voltage.
When I came to a rest ... I still had battery voltage on the E-meter, When I
keyed on the controller and the contactor came back in, The next Pop cleared
something, and I lost all voltage. The meter blacked out and I had a dead
EV.
So I clearly Opened a Orbital.
It was the weak one The runt , The one that Went Red the easiest, and the
first to Light the Red on a Long run.
I have known this for about 100 cycles... I should have removed it long ago.
No opotions now... It leaves Goldie for good shortly.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Orb Carnage....
>
> On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Well Lee hart.. the 32 volt ATO fuse WILL shut down a 144 volt
> > 1000 amp arc... and put the fire out... And for sure a Mk2B reg won't
> > live to tell about it.... Fine I have plenty of those!!
>
> So what exactly happened here? What made the fuse on the regulator
> blow?
>
> You were under hard acceleration, drawing heavy amps from your pack.
> Then what happened?
>
> I hypothesize your battery suffered a cell reversal or a short, heated
> up fast, boiled the electrolyte and blew open. But why would that run
> a thousand amps of pack voltage through a regulator?
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Reg is diode protected in a reverse condition, The 60 volt 1N5822 kinda
gets vaporized at 144 volts. The Fuse Like leaves the seen.
I dunno about the battery.. I suspect a interconnect let go. Something
clearly melted and opened the pack under the Reg while at extreme Amp
levels.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: Orb Carnage....
> Was the "bad" battery reversed in its entirety and does the
> reg short-circuit when reverse-connected?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Doug Weathers
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:42 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Orb Carnage....
>
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Well Lee hart.. the 32 volt ATO fuse WILL shut down a 144 volt
> > 1000 amp arc... and put the fire out... And for sure a Mk2B reg won't
> > live to tell about it.... Fine I have plenty of those!!
>
> So what exactly happened here? What made the fuse on the regulator
> blow?
>
> You were under hard acceleration, drawing heavy amps from your pack.
> Then what happened?
>
> I hypothesize your battery suffered a cell reversal or a short, heated
> up fast, boiled the electrolyte and blew open. But why would that run
> a thousand amps of pack voltage through a regulator?
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Below my signature is the text of the Craigslist ad:
http://www.craigslist.org/nby/car/149146961.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
ZERO EMISSIONS ELECTRIC VEHICLE - $500 (san anselmo)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2006-04-07, 12:59PM PDT
1986 FORD ESCORT WAGON
Converted a dozen or so years ago by a hobbyist.
1FABP3495GW207303
It is presently registered with DMV in NON-OP
That means that it is approved by the DMV.
It is located in San Anselmo.
The title is clear
Needs a motor controller and batteries.
The body finish is fair, the structure is good, NO RUST, the interior is a
little faded.
Many components were kept in dry storage for a few years while this car has
been idle, so some reassembly is required.
General Electric SERIES TRACTION MOTOR [Google it]
Model: 5BT1346B50
Horsepower: 20.9 @ 4700 RPM - 90 Volts - 184 Amps
The motor must be worth at least $500
This car is a relatively inexpensive way to "GO ELECTRIC":
The costly and time consuming conversion is complete.
The DMV process is complete.
As a starter project car for a hobbyist or a reliable commuter you can drive
the diamond lanes and drive by the gas station with a grin.
I am leaving the Bay Area soon. Someone should get this NOW!
Call: Ernie (415) 785-3317
Cell (415) 846-6830
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Apr 2006 at 18:40, a list member wrote:
> republican leadership ...
Just a reminder that the EV list is not an appropriate place to discuss
partisan politics. All it does is generate flames and hard feelings. The
polarization in this nation - and exploitation thereof - is already
sufficient abomination without our taking part in it.
Please stick to discussing that which we have in common, EV construction and
use. Thanks for your understanding.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Apr 2006 at 23:37, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Is that what "global warming" is about?
Please, let's not get into one of these flame wars. Let's discuss EVs, not
get into arguments about whether global climate change is happening.
I'm not trying to censor anyone, just keep things relatively peaceful on the
list. This is one of those hot button issues, and it is not necessary to
talk about it in order to build successful EVs.
Please practice restraint and keep your posts 100% on topic. Thanks for
your understanding about this.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 4, 2006, at 7:59 PM, John Bryan wrote:
Needing to come up with something to
get my EV on the road soon, I decided to go with low powered
individual chargers along with a series charger for bulk and finish.
What individual chargers are you using John? Have you had to replace
any? You have had some of the best success I know of using per-battery
charging in an on-road application. I may want to copy it :-) My 7 year
old Optimas are toast and its my fault. After some testing this year I
intend to replace them and the charging system.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 7, 2006, at 9:20 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
3) I would need to be directed to or be supplied the slip ring (DC
guy remember, hehe). I could supply the diameter of the shaft and the
length and height info. I'd imagine I'd need to trim the shaft to fit
a standard slip ring bore.
To recap: Slip ring + Jim = Stupid, lmao!! So if you can point me
out such a critter I could in fact attach it to the shaft and make the
connections.
I got curious about slip rings and did a few minutes of web searching.
Here's some tidbits I turned up.
These guys make slip rings in a variety of sizes. There's a Flash
animation of how their slip ring design works. It looks like these are
low-RPM designs.
<http://www.uea-inc.com/slip/index.html>
This eBay auction is for a big elevator motor. The pictures show
details of the slip rings.
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7607339691>
ThomasNet lists makers of slip rings and slip ring brushes. You might
see some familiar names here. (I recognized Repco from previous
mention on this list.)
<http://www.thomasnet.com/nsearch.html?
cov=NA&what=Rings%3A+Slip&heading=68161405&navsec=prodsearch>
<http://www.thomasnet.com/nsearch.html?cov=NA&what=Brushes%3A+Slip-
Ring&heading=8672602&navsec=prodsearch>
And here's where I started the search. The ads on the right of the
page were the most useful result.
<http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=motor+slip+ring&btnG=Search>
So anyway, Jim, you might want to contact your brush and motor part
supply guys and ask them about slip rings and brushes that can stand
the RPMs.
Hope this helps,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
