EV Digest 5365
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: US Battery vs Trojan
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Genny
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: How do I change to read in browser?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV availability, was: Monster Garage
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re; US Battery vs Trojan
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Genny
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re; How do I change to read in browser?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Effect of heating batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: How do I change to read in browser?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A DC motor question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Who REALLY drives the Most Miles
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Appropriate energy use, was: A DC motor question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Orbital or Optima? For my Jetta conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
14) breaking in New Batteries
by Calvin King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Orbital or Optima? For my Jetta conversion
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Who REALLY drives the Most Miles
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Orbital or Optima? For my Jetta conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Battery testing
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV availability, was: Monster Garage
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Joel,
One factor I look it, is how the battery case is reinforced, so it does not
budge under charging pressure. My last set of batteries had a smooth thin
plastic sides, that balloon out after a while. The tops also form blisters
on the cover.
It is best to have gasket locking caps instead of gang push on caps.
Look at the battery date that may be stamp on the lead pad or on the battery
case. This will be a mix of letters and numbers. The number 4 will be the
year date of 2004 and the letter B would be February. They use A to M for
the months, not using the I.
I ran into some dealer batteries that have been setting for over 9 months
without any maintainers. If you can, contact the battery company battery
directly.
So after I look at the specifications of the batteries, that you can see in
there WEB sites, check to see if the bottom of the grids are just hanging or
are supported on plastic platforms. These are normally done in a high AH
traction batteries.
Count the number of negative plates and positive plates are there in a cell.
A cell width of 3 inch by 7 inch by 12 inches long containing 11 negative
plates and 10 positive plates is about 300 AH.
A good battery will have the negative plates on the end of each roll per
cell, making it one more than the positive.
The placement of the battery post should be place, so you can have a
straight line connection of the links. This means when you place the
batteries together, you do not have to connect them up diangonal. My first
batteries back in 1975 had the post at the end of each battery which were
link together with a 4 inch buss bar.
Heavy duty traction batteries, should have different options for different
types of battery post connections.
The top cover of the battery should be a little larger than the body of the
case. This allows when batteries are stack together, the tops may be
touching, but the body sides have a space for cooling.
In industrial 2 volt cells, this is reversed. The tops have a 1/4 inch space
at the top and the very bottoms are only touching. This allows to install a
battery calking compound sealing the tops.
The most important data for me, is the Reserved Capacity at 75 Amps. The
T-125's have a reserved capacity of 135 minutes at 75 amps. I normally
drive at 50 to 100 battery ampere, so the actual usable ampere-hour I can
used if I discharge to 50% DOD is:
(135 min. / 60) x 75 = 168 ah
At 50% DOD = 168/2 = 84 AH.
If you have a very high efficiency EV that weighs about 3000 lbs, your range
will be about 80 miles.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:52 PM
Subject: US Battery vs Trojan
> I know there has been discussion about this before but
> wanted to check with the group again.
>
> I have a ElectroAutomotive VW Cabriolet conversion
> that is currently running US Battery 125s. It is time
> to get a new pack and I have a choice of either the
> USBs or the Trojans from my local supplier.
>
> Which would you go with? The Torjans are about $6
> more for each battery.
>
> Interested in thoughts on this.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a confusing answer,
centre-tapped implies that twice the voltage is available.
Since this persion is in Europe and explicitly states it is 110V,
not 230V, my guess it that it is not in the gen head.
You could buy it if it goes for cheap and rewind the head or
even use a 110:230V transformer if you do not like tearing into
the set.
Last resort ;-) is to ask the seller which type he is selling and
looking up the specs.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 4:35 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Genny
On 4/12/06, John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone on the list is familiar with the 3Kva Honda Generator
on
> ebay - item 7609509034.
>
> It says there are two 110v sockets but I want to know if I can series
these
> up to produce 220volts or whether they are simply two parallel sockets.
>
> I would have though Honda would have made just one type of generator for
> both European and the US market where they could run the output windings
as
> two separate 110volt outputs or one 220volt output.
It's a site generator. They have a single 110V winding,
centre-tapped. I sincerely doubt that the generator is made or
assembled by Honda anyway, only the engine is.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does your mail program have a browser interface into your mailbox?
Most popular mail *can* be picked up with a mail client like
Outlook Express, but you can also log on via the web.
Alternatively you can follow the online archives....
http://madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:01 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: How do I change to read in browser?
Hi There,
I am currently receiving these digest postings from the group. I would like
to change to see them in a browser window. I am having issues with my
email
being full. Can you tell me how to change this? (Please, if someone could
reply outside the group directly to my address I would be grateful.)
Thanks so much!
Shellee
LEVT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
> The problem, as usual, comes when the person asks the
> magic question - "OK, so where can I get one?" Rots o Ruck!
One answer that works in a free market:
How much did you tell your dealer you wanted to pay for your
next car being EV?
If each dealer has 100 customers banging on their doors for EV
then they will send a different message to HQ then when they
know of nobody asking for that.
Since change happens slow, it may take a while for the message
to penetrate *and* no longer be ignored in Detroit, one way of
helping this get kickstarted may be to open a public "waiting list"
where people can enter their name to get an EV.
One way to show how much interest there is, besides the perception
of the dealer or HQ's product polls.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:32:45 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>> But I bet I'll
>> still be able to count the number of EVs in this town on my fingers.
>> AFIK, there are currently exactly 2 EV cars (both CitiCars) here plus
>> some e-scooters and at least one e-bicycle.
>Some of don't consider a Citicar Worthy of more that carring Golf Clubs and
>a hand bag of some sort.
>They are some of the worst EVs. For the world to think of Evs this way ,is
a
>insult to those of us that can keep up with traffic.
>Yer one of those??!!! I thought better of you.
Now you don't really think I'd be driving a stock Citi, do you? :-) I
did do a couple of laps around be block before I jacked it up and slid
some volts under it. 72 volts, to be exact. Yeah, it'll keep up with
traffic on surface streets. And I'm 'bout to install a larger motor.
Probably a B&B motor unless Jim wants the job :-)
About the only thing that is stock on my Citi is the VIN number :-)
I'm about to do some frame cuts and welds so I can fit 14" tires and
wheels. That should complete my speed upgrade and get me up to at
least 60mph which is more than enough for where I'm going to drive it.
The major features of the citi include: Cheap (sorry, I'm just not
going to spend the kind of money some folks here are spending on any
sort of car. Retiring early is so much more important). Go-kart like
handling. Easy parking. Cheap. Chick magnet :-) Cheap. Did I
mention inexpensive?
The only disadvantage is that I can hardly go anywhere in a hurry
because so many people want to chat me up. I suspect that my cool,
emotionless and rational approach to EVs - no eco-nazi bleating, just
rational logic for why an EV fits my around-town transportation needs
the best - gets more people interested than if I tried to evangelize
while driving a converted Metro or something. The problem, as usual,
comes when the person asks the magic question - "OK, so where can I
get one?" Rots o Ruck!
>The briliance was the GM EV and those old TVA and Whoops planers that
coulda
>had all these power shortages taken care of 2 decades ago.
>Hope for lots of wind, and rain...
Yup. I keep forgetting about the Whoops debacle. Probably worse than
the TVA one. I know some of the old TVA engineers. They're retired
now and are just sittin' back with a big ole sh*t-eatin' "I told you
so" grin on their faces....
>> I worked for the feds back then. I
>> can testify as to how much did not get done in 78 deg or hotter
>> offices. Which might have been a really good thing except that I was
>> trying to start up a nuclear plant at the time. I hid a small desk
>> behind a rack in the mainframe computer room which HAD to be air
>> conditioned but I was the exception.
>>
>Which Nuke???
Sequoyah in Chattanooga with an involuntary stint at Browns Ferry in
AL after the '75 fire.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as the difference between Trojan and US Battery, there
are several factors, some battery related, and some customer
service related.
First and foremost, in the San Francisco area, our US Battery rep,
Jim Ramos goes out of his way to accommodate the EV community:
real customer service. I can only hope all US Battery reps are as
good. The SF Trojan source could care less who you are, what you
need, and how you are using the batteries.
Also, some conversions still have the round automotive posts. Our
SF Trojan source charges extra for that post and makes the buyer
wait as it is a 'special order'. Whereas our US Battery rep says,
Yes, and there is no extra charge.
Don't settle for inferior terminals, get the terminal or post
type that fits the design of the EV. Then check with each battery
source in your area, and see which one cares for your needs the
best.
...
Recently I found out something that is curious, on the US Battery
page http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbterminals.htm it lists
'some' of their terminals. When I was talking to my local rep as if
that page was the only terminals available, I confused him.
I was asking for an 'offset S' when really what I needed was a
plain 'S' terminal. I sent an email to the US Battery webmaster
asking them to mention that the page did not show all terminals
available.
The reply I got back was from a US Battery VP who said the
non-offset or plain S terminal/post was obsolete. Therefore not
listed and had to be 'special ordered'.
I do not think the local US Battery reps and that US Battery VP are
on the same page. I emailed the US Battery VP back and told him how
many EV drivers used the S and other non-offset termianls. He
replied thanks for the support, but those terminals are obsolete
(!?!). Hmmm ...
...
Actual data to compare the two brands
A San Jose EAA member has for many, many years taken it upon
himself to handle a battery exchange program for EAA members
local to the San Jose area.
Members buying a new pack would deliver their tired pack to him.
Then the member would go through the old pack charging and testing
to find the truly dead ones (dead cores). Then he would give dead
batteries to the battery rep for the exchange.
What batteries from the pack that still have life he would rate on
capacity and self discharge and keep for members that just need
one or two batteries to keep their pack good until they all die.
In a sense, this extends the life of the member's old pack by
instead of having to buy a whole new pack when only a few are bad.
This testing also has generated a large amount of data on the
differences between US Battery and Trojan. We all know Trojans
cost more than US Battery. But as Trojans age, they lose capacity
more than self discharge. Whereas US Battery self discharge more
than lose capacity.
So if you are at the end of your packs cycle life and you fully
charge your pack, you can have fairly good capacity with an aged
US Battery pack. However if you charge it, and let it sit, it will
lose its charge from self discharge.
Whereas the aged Trojan pack will not self discharge as fast, but
will not have as much capacity.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also check the RPM's from 3000 or 3600???
3000 = 50Hz
3600 = 60Hz
Cor van de Water wrote:
This is a confusing answer,
centre-tapped implies that twice the voltage is available.
Since this persion is in Europe and explicitly states it is 110V,
not 230V, my guess it that it is not in the gen head.
You could buy it if it goes for cheap and rewind the head or
even use a 110:230V transformer if you do not like tearing into
the set.
Last resort ;-) is to ask the seller which type he is selling and
looking up the specs.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 4:35 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Genny
On 4/12/06, John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I wonder if anyone on the list is familiar with the 3Kva Honda Generator
on
ebay - item 7609509034.
It says there are two 110v sockets but I want to know if I can series
these
up to produce 220volts or whether they are simply two parallel sockets.
I would have though Honda would have made just one type of generator for
both European and the US market where they could run the output windings
as
two separate 110volt outputs or one 220volt output.
It's a site generator. They have a single 110V winding,
centre-tapped. I sincerely doubt that the generator is made or
assembled by Honda anyway, only the engine is.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reading EV List POSTs from your browser, and your EV List
subscription are two different things.
There are serveral archives that can be read from a browser. From
the http://geocities.com/ev_list/ page:
The Electric Vehicle List archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/ (digest - ad based)
http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/maillist.html
(digest - non ad)
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/ (individual
messages - ad based)
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> Your quick experiment was several days long. Thanks for the great test
> data Lee.
"Quick" only in the sense that I dind't have to do much. Once started,
the test ran itself.
> The overall lesson is old warm battery's have better capacity. I
> wonder how the same test would effect a new battery? Maybe a few
> percent increase in capacity?
Much less of an increase. I deliberately used an old high-resistance
battery to maximize the effect.
> This motivates me to get my dying pack heated up just so I can get
> some range out of it and help to prevent if from dipping into 80% DOD
> so often.
That should work, to eke out a little more life out of it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In an email message, send ONLY the following text :
set ev mail postpone
to the address :
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This will allow you to remain subscribed so you can still post messages to
the list in the same way you do now, but you will no longer receive any email
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Then you can read the list's email with your browser at one of the many
online archives. If you can tolerate Yahoo's advertising (or have a firewall
you
can configure to block the ads), the simplest one is probably the Yahoo
single message archive :
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/
If you don't mind reading the digests, you might use :
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The madkatz EVDL page has worthwhile secondary information but
regrettably it is now somewhat outdated. For more current EVDL
subscription and archive information, see this page :
http://www.evdl.org/help/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< Among brushed motors, the best choice is the compound motor which has
both series and shunt fields. By proper choice of them, you can get
almost any desired HP curve. For instance, the shunt field can be wired
to strengthen the field at low speeds (reducing the damaging peak HP),
and weaken the field at high speed to raise HP. This type of motor was
used in the most successful EVs of the past. >>>
My Kewet came with a compound motor, using both fields from takeoff, then
dropping out the shunt at ~15mph (a sensor from the transaxle signals its
speed). With appropriately-placed relays (or do I need full-blown contactors?),
could the shunt field be reversed if I need a higher top speed?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
( I hate to go into RANT mode..You know I almost Never DO ) But it is
the Average Jo, and Jane who drives LESS THAN 40 miles a day...where all
our Billions of Barrels of Oil Go UP in CO2 every Day!
INFRASTRUCTURE ??? Haven't you folks seen data from EPRI or other
Public Power Utilities, which shows how many MILLIONS of EVs or PHEV's
could be charged in the evenings - off peak power ???
Cross country trips and trips more than 50 miles a day comprise such a
SMALL portion of all the fuel we burn.. GIVE EM ALL HUMMERS or V12
Cadilac's !!! (if that's what they want)
About FAST Charging... Look at it this way.. Even the poor slob who
bought a small castle 75 miles from where he works.. Lets say he drives
TWO hours to, and TWO hours back to home... ( ..poor [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
This isn't Rocket Science the Bloody CAR is STILL sitting Somewhere 20
HOURS A DAY !!! We don't need Battery swapping, Ultra-Chargers etc.
etc. for that. Only a Two Bit extension Cord to a 110 outlet.
But HAY.... I know after beating my head against this for 25 years
that Mr. and Mrs. Average still worries about that ONE LONG trip a
month... or once a year... So... Rich !! ( and others..) Keep at
those Mega-Chargers.. You'll probably have more customers than you'll
know what to do with ....in time.
30 miles a day or LESS.....
I know.... I know... before you turn the Flame Burners on... that
every time you get more than 3 people together, that ONE of them will
say..." Well HELL, That's no good for me, I drive 75 miles a DAY ! "
But ya got to remember.. He / she's Not AVerage.. OK ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> With gas approaching $3.00/gal in my town, I look at my 12 y.o. twins and
> wonder how the heck they'll ever afford fuel for the cars they will want to
> buy when they turn 16. They absolutely love my EV and are not opposed to
> their first cars being electric. I'm also not opposed to limiting their
> range to 50-75 miles so I can keep tabs on them. ;)
>
My almost-17 yr old son has grown up with EVs (knew Plasma Boy before the
"incident" that got him his name), and he prefers driving my Ranger to anything
ICE-powered. I would have preferred to get something with enough seats for my
whole family, but find some small comfort in knowing I can have it serviced by
an EV-capable Ford dealer, and don't have to even *think* about dealing with
its sealed PbA pack unless something dies in there.
Like some on this list, I have a life and family that takes precedence over EVs,
and unlike a lot of you, I have crappy mechanics' skills (there are several EVs
I've killed) that should be nowhere near high voltage/current. Some of you like
to diddle around with every little measurement and spend your free time playing
with your EVs, and if that's your form of entertainment, it's worth the price
of admission, but I think I am closer to the general public in my desire to
*not* calculate every damn thing going on under the hood (I do enough
daydreaming about aerodynamics, rolling resistance, and lithium packs as it
is).
My son knows to plug into an Avcon when he can, but since he only uses the truck
around town, he rarely uses up much of the range. He knows he'll still have to
rely on ICEs to go long distances, at least for the foreseeable future.
Hopefully the infrastructure for CNG will be dependable enough to not waste it
just feeding the grid (to run a charger to keep an EV going), but save it to
directly feed the stuff that really needs combustible fuel. Maybe one day he'll
be able to buy a CNG-converted-plug-in hybrid and get the best of both
worlds...we'll see.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the feedback everyone. :)
I'm going to get the 34DC36 because of the top posts and the mounting
holes through the middle, and most importantly because this battery
has a very good price/performance ratio.
One thing I want to avoid is the car being slow (like it is with the
stock engine). I don't want to race it (not too much anyway.. hehe
>:o), but I want to have the power if I need it. I want the lowest DOD
for longest life so I'm probably going to go with 29 at 348 v, which
will bring the car with me in it to just under the max weight on the
badge (with aluminum wheels and suspension upgrades). I searched and
could find no one posting about running so many in a Jetta, but I've
measured and it looks possible to fit them all.
With the motor I keep bouncing between the 9 inch ADC and the Warp 9.
Jim Husted has posted that he doesn't like the brush holders on the
Warp, so I'm not sure yet. I don't want to risk transmission or
commutator damage, so I'm thinking 150v at 800 amps to the motor will
be a more reasonable limit, and should still be considerably quicker
than stock (85 HP and 96 lb-ft from the 1.8L engine). Otmar has posted
that bucking 348 v to much lower is harder on the motor and
controller, but said should be ok for normally shifted cars (like
mine).
It would be nice to charge at work. Currently the work folks tolerate
my oddness and I have little pull with any extras, but maybe when gas
hits $6 a gallon and they see my electric car, things will change.
I must have 500 bookmarks now and a few hundred posts, webpages, and
pdfs saved now with this project.. And I spend all evening and
weekends researching.. Lots of fun though. :)
Brad in Tampa
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I have picked up from reading that a new pack must be broken in
properly to get the most out of the batteries. Here is what I think
I know and don't know. You guys fill in the blanks.
1. The first trip should be only 5 miles. Then recharge.
2. Each trip thereafter should be slightly longer until anticipated
limits are reached.
3. The speed should not exceed 25 MPH.
4. The amp demand should not exceed the rating of the battery.
I am using Workaholic U2200 so I should keep my amp use below 200.
Thus far I have made several trips never exceeding a 100 amps neither
on acceleration nor while driving. I have maintained a speed of 25
to 30 mph. What I don't know is how long do I keep this up. I can
not get to the church office without traveling on a 3 mile stretch
posted at 55 mph. I have been waiting at the stop sign until there
are no cars in sight, still it is rare to get to the end without
someone needing to pass. I know someone will get irritated sooner or
later but worse yet as the only electric in the area, people will
begin to think of electric cars in a very negative way. So when can
I begin to really drive?
Calvin King
'81 Electrica
108 volts
Thundering Springs Baptist Church
"Lifting Up the Name of Jesus"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:37, Cor van de Water wrote:
John,
Do you have a gas station in your garage?
That is why people fill up during the day -
the stations are open during the day and you need to
go there to get gas.
I agree that to some extent the infrastructure is already in place - we
already have a great big old electrical distribution network with
endpoints in every home. And that infrastructure had better have
expansion capability, because our demand isn't going down, evs or no.
Most people get gas in the day because that is when they are out. They
are using energy, they need to replenish it then. That they can get
some at home is great, but won't fill the entire requirement, because
people aren't home all the time.
Imagine that gas would be $0.95 at night, $1.95 in the morning
and $3.95 in the afternoon.
When would you go to get gas?
Nighttime, of course, but if I need juice during the day, I need it,
can't wait until the next nocturnal charging period.
BTW - I did not say I want a slower vehicle, my statement was
that for many decades only sports cars had more than 100 hp
because the family sedan was running fast enough with power
somewhere around 60 hp or so.
Not sure when that was. Maybe in the Netherlands, but never in the US.
At least not since the 50s.
I do not see why in the last few years the increasingly faster
technological advances have pushed the power envelope to allow
a ridiculously heavy vehicle to qualify for "Sport" in their name.
Because that is what people want. It isn't brainwashing, it is
demand. Ford still sells way more explorers than Toyota does Priuses.
It is unreasonable to expect 99% of drivers to choose less for more.
You may voluntarily make that decision - that someone else doesn't isn't
an indicator that are weak willed or under the thumb of some autocrat.
Actually, quite the opposite, compare the East and West German
automobile industries.
As for jerks, they can be jerky regardless of what they drive.
Regarding elaborate battery maintenance:
How often do you change your oil?
Most people never change it, it is done for them.
Many EVs today are tinkerer toys; production vehicles will do
what Toyota did with the Prius: guarantee the battery for 100,000
miles after putting the engineering in to make it maintenance free.
Ask the people that leased the production EVs.
Agree - but for right now, it seems that battery charging is a lot more
than just plugging into the wall overnight. Not only are you thinking
people should choose less power and range, but also more complicated
maintenance. Not gonna happen.
You have you reasons, I am a car guy who is geeky enough to think it
will be cool to build an electric car, and if my gut is right that the
next oil shock will have us yearning for the good old days of $3 gas, it
might even pay off.
For the mainstream, it will have to be better than lead-acid conversions
- it will have to be better
than gas cars ($10 gas will adjust that equation.)
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad Baylor wrote:
> With the motor I keep bouncing between the 9 inch ADC and the Warp 9.
> Jim Husted has posted that he doesn't like the brush holders on the
> Warp, so I'm not sure yet.
Check with Jim and see if he has any motors, and if he would sell you one.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your view is blurred by your passion. I am pro EV, yet an EV covers very
little of the needs of me and my family. After 5 years on this list I am
still trying to work out an EV solution that can get me to work each day and
is worth the time, money and effort.
My Honda Insight is great for the 26 mile (one way) commute, all I had to do
was plunk down 20 grand to get it. Besides the commute it meets many of my
other family requirements including my much more than once a year
multi-hundred mile trip for one or two. When one of the kids is acting up
there is nothing better than a little one on one time as we make an
excursion to Grandma's house 120 miles away, or to the coast 75 miles away,
or to the mountains also out of the range of an EV. In just over 5 years I
have managed to put almost 90,000 miles on it. There are only a handful of
EV's that have seen that kind of mileage period, and it is no problem for my
Insight. My wife does a lot of hauling our 4 kids around in her car most of
which would not work in a standard EV as she pretty much matches my mileage
numbers. Then we have our minivan which we use when the whole family is
going somewhere. This gets the least amount of use now, only about 4000
miles last year, but it is the most likely vehicle to take us well out of EV
range.
I keep trying to find ways to a way to shoehorn an EV into my life, but it's
hard to do. I have my EV motorcycle which the whole family loves, but I am
only able to put about 1000 miles a year on it right now. I'm hoping that
this is the year that I will start being able to ride it to work, but only
time will tell if things pan out the way I am hoping they do. I live in an
average neighborhood, make a little better than an average salary, which is
used to support my larger than average family (4 kids), and have a fairly
average commute, about 1.5 hours a day 4 days a week.
With the current state of EV's they only work for people who are willing to
put in the time, effort, and money to make them work... and then they still
almost always come up lacking in some area. Gassers polute, and can be
expensive to maintain, but they almost always meet people's needs.
EVs certainly do have some niches were they work well, and when it is a good
fit people love them, because they have many advantages over gassers, but
you would think that after years of standing up on your soap box and getting
mostly blank stares you would realize it is because the things you are
preaching don't resonate as true with most people regardless of what the
studies you have read say...
damon
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Who REALLY drives the Most Miles
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:59:22 -0700
( I hate to go into RANT mode..You know I almost Never DO ) But it is the
Average Jo, and Jane who drives LESS THAN 40 miles a day...where all our
Billions of Barrels of Oil Go UP in CO2 every Day!
INFRASTRUCTURE ??? Haven't you folks seen data from EPRI or other Public
Power Utilities, which shows how many MILLIONS of EVs or PHEV's could be
charged in the evenings - off peak power ???
Cross country trips and trips more than 50 miles a day comprise such a
SMALL portion of all the fuel we burn.. GIVE EM ALL HUMMERS or V12
Cadilac's !!! (if that's what they want)
About FAST Charging... Look at it this way.. Even the poor slob who
bought a small castle 75 miles from where he works.. Lets say he drives TWO
hours to, and TWO hours back to home... ( ..poor [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
This isn't Rocket Science the Bloody CAR is STILL sitting Somewhere 20
HOURS A DAY !!! We don't need Battery swapping, Ultra-Chargers etc. etc.
for that. Only a Two Bit extension Cord to a 110 outlet.
But HAY.... I know after beating my head against this for 25 years that
Mr. and Mrs. Average still worries about that ONE LONG trip a month... or
once a year... So... Rich !! ( and others..) Keep at those
Mega-Chargers.. You'll probably have more customers than you'll know what
to do with ....in time.
30 miles a day or LESS.....
I know.... I know... before you turn the Flame Burners on... that every
time you get more than 3 people together, that ONE of them will say..."
Well HELL, That's no good for me, I drive 75 miles a DAY ! "
But ya got to remember.. He / she's Not AVerage.. OK ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Jim Husted has posted that he doesn't like the brush holders on the
> Warp, so I'm not sure yet. I don't want to risk transmission or
> commutator damage, so I'm thinking 150v at 800 amps to the motor will
> be a more reasonable limit, and should still be considerably quicker
> than stock (85 HP and 96 lb-ft from the 1.8L engine). Otmar has posted
> that bucking 348 v to much lower is harder on the motor and
> controller, but said should be ok for normally shifted cars (like
> mine).
>
The low-voltage 2K Zilla with only 13 buddy-pairs (to keep under max V) puts out
more than a 300V 1K Zilla with lower voltage limits, and if you only want 150V,
wouldn't it be more cost-effective to use the low-voltage 1K? I guess that
depends on the motor amps you "dial in".
Or you could bump up that "150v at 800 amps" to 1600A if you left the voltage at
150 and used paired batteries...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
Thanks for the constructive criticism and being honest that you
are more a mainstream guy than most on this list.
I'll admit - I am a geek.
Still, I have zero battery maintenance.
Yes, I use Lead Acid, but opted for the sealed type as most of
my batteries in the battery box are not even accessible.
So, your generic comment about battery maintenance being equal
to Lead Acid is not always valid.
So, this setup may qualify for you as well.
(FYI it's a US Electricar)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Norton
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:45 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Infrastructure overload, was: Monster Garage
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:37, Cor van de Water wrote:
> John,
>
> Do you have a gas station in your garage?
>
> That is why people fill up during the day -
> the stations are open during the day and you need to
> go there to get gas.
I agree that to some extent the infrastructure is already in place - we
already have a great big old electrical distribution network with
endpoints in every home. And that infrastructure had better have
expansion capability, because our demand isn't going down, evs or no.
Most people get gas in the day because that is when they are out. They
are using energy, they need to replenish it then. That they can get
some at home is great, but won't fill the entire requirement, because
people aren't home all the time.
>
> Imagine that gas would be $0.95 at night, $1.95 in the morning
> and $3.95 in the afternoon.
>
> When would you go to get gas?
>
Nighttime, of course, but if I need juice during the day, I need it,
can't wait until the next nocturnal charging period.
>
> BTW - I did not say I want a slower vehicle, my statement was
> that for many decades only sports cars had more than 100 hp
> because the family sedan was running fast enough with power
> somewhere around 60 hp or so.
>
Not sure when that was. Maybe in the Netherlands, but never in the US.
At least not since the 50s.
> I do not see why in the last few years the increasingly faster
> technological advances have pushed the power envelope to allow
> a ridiculously heavy vehicle to qualify for "Sport" in their name.
>
Because that is what people want. It isn't brainwashing, it is
demand. Ford still sells way more explorers than Toyota does Priuses.
It is unreasonable to expect 99% of drivers to choose less for more.
You may voluntarily make that decision - that someone else doesn't isn't
an indicator that are weak willed or under the thumb of some autocrat.
Actually, quite the opposite, compare the East and West German
automobile industries.
As for jerks, they can be jerky regardless of what they drive.
>
> Regarding elaborate battery maintenance:
> How often do you change your oil?
> Most people never change it, it is done for them.
> Many EVs today are tinkerer toys; production vehicles will do
> what Toyota did with the Prius: guarantee the battery for 100,000
> miles after putting the engineering in to make it maintenance free.
> Ask the people that leased the production EVs.
>
Agree - but for right now, it seems that battery charging is a lot more
than just plugging into the wall overnight. Not only are you thinking
people should choose less power and range, but also more complicated
maintenance. Not gonna happen.
You have you reasons, I am a car guy who is geeky enough to think it
will be cool to build an electric car, and if my gut is right that the
next oil shock will have us yearning for the good old days of $3 gas, it
might even pay off.
For the mainstream, it will have to be better than lead-acid conversions
- it will have to be better
than gas cars ($10 gas will adjust that equation.)
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've started putting the batteries on my load tester to see what they
look like there. They're rated at 335CCA and the tester says to run
them at half of that current, so I'm testing them at ~170A. The tester
wants you to hold them at that load for 15 seconds and then note the
voltage.
I've tested one entire string and a few of the second string's batteries
and am waiting for the tester to cool off. So far, the majority of the
batteries are sitting at 10-10.2V at the end of the test, but a few are
down to 9.8V. Not exactly what I'd call a huge gap, but you have more
experience at this than I do. Do those 9.8's represent problem batteries?
I'll test the rest of the batteries and then try swapping out the worst
of one string, replacing them with "better" batteries from the other
string, and then try charging and driving the truck on just that one
string and see what I get.
As always, I'd appreciate any suggestions!
-Tom
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
The way to weed out the good from the bad is capacity testing each one
individually. It might be worth the trouble.
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:48 PM 4/13/2006, you wrote:
John,
> The problem, as usual, comes when the person asks the
> magic question - "OK, so where can I get one?" Rots o Ruck!
One answer that works in a free market:
How much did you tell your dealer you wanted to pay for your
next car being EV?
If each dealer has 100 customers banging on their doors for EV
then they will send a different message to HQ then when they
know of nobody asking for that.
Since change happens slow, it may take a while for the message
to penetrate *and* no longer be ignored in Detroit, one way of
helping this get kickstarted may be to open a public "waiting list"
where people can enter their name to get an EV.
One way to show how much interest there is, besides the perception
of the dealer or HQ's product polls.
Nice thought. However, the EV1 and EV Plus had long waiting lists,
and LOTS of would-be owners (or at least, lessors) banging the
dealership doors AND corporate HQ. They were both killed after a
paltry few hundred were built to satisfy a deal cut with CARB to
weaken (and eventually kill) the ZEV mandate. The manufacturers
spent TONS of money on lobbyists to be sure they wouldn't have to
build EVs. I don' wanna, and you can't make me! So there! Sad but true.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
