EV Digest 5370
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GE 9 ' motors for EV
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Walmart (was: Re: Monster Garage)
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Fwd: Monster Garage
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re:Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Monster Garage
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Monster Garage
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV history...
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re:Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Why 6v instead of 12v (Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Wanted EV demo near Kansas City Missouri
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery & Charging conference
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: More Plug-in Prius question
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Wanted EV demo near Kansas City Missouri
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Public Pay charging stations (Was: Re: Monster Garage)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by "Electric Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery & Charging conference
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: GE 9 ' motors for EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3 square
yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's ratio
by "Electric Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3 square
yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's ratio
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT ramble..goosepimples
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV mass market,
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Joel Hacker wrote:
> Would it be even faster if you..
You'll be impressed when he gets his new batteries...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Better yet, skip the bill changer/credit card machine and just put machines
that accept tokens. Walmart has the ability to process payments for a
variety of gift cards inside the store; give each cashier a couple of rolls
of tokens and send the RV'ers through the line, and you also encourage them
to buy other stuff while they're in the store. (I thought of magstripe
cards, but if they're stored-value cards, they'll be hacked, and if not,
then the light poles have to communicate back to a central computer to
verify. For tokens, you just have to worry about people feeding in slugs,
and there are ways to detect those.)
This could be packaged and offered to any strip mall or parking lot owner,
not just Walmart.
Tim
-------
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 12:26 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
<snip>
I've suggested to Walmart in the form of several letters that they
turn this into a profitable use of otherwise unused real-estate. My
idea is to install electrical outlets (30 amp 120 volt RV and 50 amp
240 volt range outlets used by the bigger RVs) on lighting poles along
with a bill acceptor and credit card swiper.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Apr 2006 at 22:26, Roland Wiench wrote:
> The engine was turning the motor thru to
> the drive line, while I could have the motor regen or have the motor come on
> line when the engine vacuum drop under 15 in.hg.
By the definition commonly used, that is 100% parallel hybrid.
The Prius is the only series-parallel combination hybrid (more or less ;-) I
know of. It can be considered series-parallel because it has a second motor-
generator which can be driven from the engine, and which can separately
charge the traction battery while the motor and/or engine is/are driving the
vehicle.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
That's 8 big batteries. As I remember they can be as much or more than 100
pounds each. That's a lot of amps. With the right controller it would do
fine. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
Wondering what is the most batteries anybody has gotten into a beetle
without taking out the backseat.
A neighbor of mine, who is a EE and a instructor at a technical college,
has
the students build a VW EV Beetle with 48 volts of 6 volt deep cycle floor
cleaning type of batteries. They were all in the back above the motor on
a
shelf as forward as you can get. They had about the same rear weight as
when
it had the engine.
They first use a 28 VDC aircraft starter motor which actually had a label
rating of 36 volts. Used a contactor drive with a large fin type .5 ohm
resistor with taps that had to be over 20kw rating.
They later change it to a ADC motor, built there own controller and then a
donated controller.
This unit was very zippy, could do faster acceleration than my 7000 lb ev
with 3000 lbs of batteries at 180 volts. It even had about the same range
as my EV.
There was no accessory battery, heater, power steering, vacuum and etc.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bruce and Roland. Why does everybody use 6v instead of 12v?
Sorry newbie question. All the 6v's I've seen get less ampH x 2 total
than the 12v.
-Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Michaela Merz wrote:
I don't know if we are talking about the same show here. The one I
saw was biased towards ICE dragsters, told the viewers how dangerous
electric cars are, spent $80,000 in 'freebies' and still couldn't win
on the track.
I finally got a chance to watch the show after it'd been sitting on my
Tivo all week, and from an EVer's perspective, I'm just amazed! For
Rich, Shawn, and Jon to get that complex of a battery system working as
quickly as they did takes talent for sure... and I thought my JeepEV was
complicated!!! :-)
However, from a non-EV biased perspective, I'd agree with Michaela that
the show was disappointingly biased and didn't shed EVs in a
particularly good light. Though, I don't think the show was nearly as
bad as it could've been. BTW, I did find it entertaining to hear Jesse
talking about the build and his plans for it, because, IMO he really
came across sounding like he didn't know what the hell he was talking
about (especially at the beginning of the show).
I did a quick (not representative) panel among friends I asked to
watch the show (about 40) that are not involved with (but are
interested in) electric vehicles. If interested, I can post my list
of questions about EVs and the answers before and after the show.
I'm interested in seeing this data... I think it could help further my
understanding of the general public's views of EVs and how they react
positively/negatively to what is shown/said about them.
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(try #2):
Hi all,
Michaela Merz wrote:
I don't know if we are talking about the same show here. The one I
saw was biased towards ICE dragsters, told the viewers how dangerous
electric cars are, spent $80,000 in 'freebies' and still couldn't win
on the track.
I finally got a chance to watch the show after it'd been sitting on my
Tivo all week, and from an EVer's perspective, I'm just amazed! For
Rich, Shawn, and Jon to get that complex of a battery system working as
quickly as they did takes talent for sure... and I thought my JeepEV was
complicated!!! :-)
However, from a non-EV biased perspective, I'd agree with Michaela that
the show was disappointingly biased and didn't shed EVs in a
particularly good light. Though, I don't think the show was nearly as
bad as it could've been. BTW, I did find it entertaining to hear Jesse
talking about the build and his plans for it, because, IMO he really
came across sounding like he didn't know what the hell he was talking
about (especially at the beginning of the show).
I did a quick (not representative) panel among friends I asked to
watch the show (about 40) that are not involved with (but are
interested in) electric vehicles. If interested, I can post my list
of questions about EVs and the answers before and after the show.
I'm interested in seeing this data... I think it could help further my
understanding of the general public's views of EVs and how they react
positively/negatively to what is shown/said about them.
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The first tape I am digitizing from Wayland's VHS collection of EV
history is the raw footage from the Arizona Drags in 1996.
(It took me 8 months to get around to it but better late than never...
My only wish is for a production grade frame sync, camcorder footage on
stretched tapes does not make the capture card happy.)
Watching the APS 96 tape is a little depressing. All these shiny
looking school built and commercial prototypes driving sedately down the
track. The beautiful yellow concept Impact that was soon in production,
and declared a failure not much after than.
The Zombie turning a 17.5 second time... ;-)
And only 10 years ago...
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 3:42 PM
Subject: Re:Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
>
> Thanks Bruce and Roland. Why does everybody use 6v instead of 12v?
> Sorry newbie question. All the 6v's I've seen get less ampH x 2 total
> than the 12v.
>
> -Chris
Hello Chris,
You must be looking under cranking amp. Cranking amp Is listed as [EMAIL
PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED] For deep cycles look under the Amp Hr @ 20 Hr rating or best
for EV
that are in the 50 to 100 amp range, look under the Reserve @ 75 Amps.
The 6 volt T-145's at 260 AH would run 20 hours at 13 amps. If they are run
at 75 amps then you would have 145/60= 2.41 hrs of running at 75 amps.
This battery weighs 72 lbs and is about 7 x 10 x 9 inches in size.
The total AH is 2.41 x 75 = 181 AH.
The closest deep cycle 12V battery is a 215 AH with a reserved capacity of
110 minutes at 75 amp. This battery weighs 122 lbs and is about 11 inches
wide by 20.5 inches long by 9.5 inches high.
The total AH at 75 amps is 110/60 = 1.83 hrs of running or 1.83 x 75 =
137 AH.
So you see a difference of 181 - 137 = 44 AH between the two.
Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
Take a read of http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
I know it is long but it has all the info you will need to know
PbSO4 wet cell batteries.
The differences are not the materials but the how they are formed.
A starting battery has several thin plates. A so-called deep-cycle
battery has a little fewer plates that are a little thicker. A
traction or golf cart 6V battery has fewer plates but they are
thick.
A starting battery is designed to have low internal impedance
(resistance) that allows high starting currents (hence more
plates). When you start your ICE (engine) is usually does not bring
the starting battery down more than about 10% of its capacity. A
starting battery is designed for these shallow discharges, and
quick recharges from the ICE alternator. As you probably know, if
you deeply discharge a starting battery, its life expectancy has
just been severally shortened (It's Dead Jim).
A traction or golf cart 6V battery has fewer plates so its internal
impedance is likely too high for jump start a large ICE. But it is
fine for drawing lower currents for a longer period of time. The
thick plates allow the lead to go into the electrolyte solution on
the discharge, and reform back onto the plates on the recharge. A
traction battery can be brought down to its safe discharge level,
and then recharged without shortening its life like a starting
battery.
Deep-cycle 12V batteries a little better than 12V starting
batteries. You can not deeply discharge them like a traction
battery and expect them to survive.
Which is what irks me about the nevs (ie GEM) that use six 12V
group 27 deep-cycle batteries and then quote a 30 mile range. Yes,
30 miles if you want to kill the pack. It's really more like a 15
mile range pack. Because you can not deeply discharge a 12V deep
cycle battery without shorten its pack life.
There are other battery designs, and chemistries to use. But the
average Joe/Jane goes for the best bang for the buck when doing a
conversion: that is 6V PbSo4 (lead-acid) wet-cell traction / golf
cart batteries.
Some EVs are using the 8V wet-cell batteries, and some drivers feel
good about the cycle life of their pack made up of 8 volters.
(IMHO) It has been my experience to see that pack made up of 8V
batteries has a longer cycle life than 12V deep-cycle batteries,
but less than the 6V wet-cell traction batteries.
...
To some EV converters they want the horse power a higher voltage
pack will give. Using 6 V batteries means a lot of batteries. Some
times a trade off is made: higher pack voltage with a shorter pack
life by using 12V batteries.
But there are several 6V traction battery models to choose from:
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/6vgolf.htm
If you have the room, you could use more of the smaller model 6V
wet-cell traction batteries to have the better performance and
range with a healthy pack cycle life. In that case you would not
have to settle for a few really heavy 6 volters.
With your VW Bug, I am thinking you need to decide what your EV is
going to do. Do you want performance: burn rubber for a short
distance? Or do you want range: long distance at one steady speed?
Or a balance of both?
A 96V pack would be too little horse power for my very heavy 5000
lb
S-10 Blazer. But for your light effecient VW Bug it might be the
right design.
Before you finalize on your conversion design, get some rides in
EVs and talk with their owners about what their design does for
them.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a customer who would like to test drive a running EV before
committing to building his own. He want's to convert a Chevy Canyon so
it would be nice if someone had a truck to show him.
Thanks
Randy
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I attended a webcast of a similar nature. I was most hopeful about
Lithium Manganese. Any word on that at your conference?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This past week I attended the Advancements in Battery Technology & Power
> Management conference and thought I'd share a couple of potentially
> interesting tidbits:
>
> - I noticed a familiar name from the EVDL on the attendee list (Dale
> Glubrecht), but didn't manage to cross paths with him, although I tried
> keeping an eye out during the networking breaks...
>
> - GP Batteries' presentation focused on their TMF lead acid cell
> technology (which they acquired by buying up Bolder Technologies). Bill
> Dube's KillaCycle was featured as a prime example of the sort of power
> these little batteries are capable of.
>
> - Kokam did a presentation regarding their folded structure Li polymer
> batteries. As most of us know, one of the key features of their product
> is its high power capability (up to 40C!). One of the key examples in
> Kokam's presentation was ProEV's racer and its winning record.
>
> The high profile of both ProEV's car and Bill Dube's bike in these two
> manufacturers' presentations clearly illustrates that there is
> definitely value to the manufacturer in sponsoring EV racers.
>
> - PowerPrecise Solutions presented their Li cell management system,
> which includes active cell balancing. The key interesting feature of
> this system is its ability to handle much longer strings of cells than
> most (all?) other solutions. Strings of 50-100 cells are possible, with
> the main limitation said to be related to timing for the communication
> between cells. Data from an independent lab was presented that showed
> how the cell balancing was able to bring a severely imbalanced pack into
> close balance in about 2 cycles after being turned on. If balancing was
> enabled during rest, the cells were brought into balance in about 14hrs,
> just sitting with the system on. The presentation didn't provide much
> by way of techinical details on how the system works and I haven't yet
> had a chance to dig through their website, but this system certainly
> appears to have the ability to make Li packs a more practical option for
> EVers.
>
> - there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell management
> and fuel gauging. One of the observations I found interesting is that
> the differences in cell internal resistance can result in cell voltage
> differences that swamp voltage differences due to cell imbalance to the
> extent that purely voltage-based balancing schemes may actually
> "correct" in the wrong direction. It was also noted that voltage
> differences due to cell imbalance may remain too small to direct cell
> balancing efforts except near the very end of discharge or (to a smaller
> extent) the end of charge, which can greatly limit the amount of time
> available for a cell balancing scheme to provide any correction.
>
> - there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell failures and
> safety. A couple of the interesting points included the fact that one
> must always expect LiIon cell failures due to internal shorts, and that
> every 18650 cell includes a charge interrupt device (CID) internally.
> Examples of X-ray and CT scan images of failed 18650 cells were provided
> illustrating how very small metal fragments/contamination can cause
> internal shorts between the electrodes in these spirally wound cells and
> cause dramatic thermal failure of the entire pack. The significance of
> the internal CID device (an aluminum disc switch that internally
> open-circuits the cell if the internal pressure rises sufficiently) is
> that if one of these ever opens in a long string of cells (like a few
> hundred volt EV string), it will have to break full pack voltage and may
> be unable to prevent an internal arc. So, it seems that if one is
> intent on using small cells such as these to make up an EV pack, it is
> probably best to parallel several cells and then series connect these
> modules rather than paralleling long strings of single cells.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Mark Thomasson wrote:
This could be a great selling point in the South. I could leave the A/C on
while I'm in the mall, for example, on battery power without running the
engine. In the plug-in version, I could cool the car down while recharging
from the power outlet. Northerners may not appreciate the value of this,
but people in the south certainly will.
AFAIK, typical car A/C compressors pull something like 1-2 HorsePower,
so this could become a problem if you are trying to charge from a
120-Volt outlet in some reasonable amount of time.
Let's say that the A/C consumes 1HP (being conservative)... that's about
746 Watts of power, where you'll be lucky to pull more than 1440 Watts
from the public outlet (about 12 Amps on the 120-volt line). That means
that now, instead of having 1440 Watts to charge the car with, you have
694 Watts. You'd be wasting over 51% of your available charging power on
cooling an unoccupied vehicle.
This sounds extremely wasteful to me... and yes, I live in South Texas,
and have alternately driven both an ICE-Jeep and my Jeep EV (both
without A/C) for almost 4 years now. It's certainly do-able, justs takes
a little bit of character ;-)
Anyways, maybe a better alternative would be to have the electric A/C
system on remote control, or a timer delay, or something similar so that
it comes on like 5 to 10 minutes before you're ready to get in the car
and drive... this allows you to charge the batteries quicker, as well as
cutting down on energy waste.
Just my 0.333 kWh,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy wrote:
I have a customer who would like to test drive a running EV before
committing to building his own. He want's to convert a Chevy Canyon
so it would be nice if someone had a truck to show him.
Have him drop me a note at this email address and I will be happy to
hook him up. We currently have an S-10 conversion in the club he can
checkout and I bet Jim would let him drive. I can also let him drive
my Civic if he wants to drive a real EV :^)
Does he know about the MAEAA?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:57:47 -0400, "Richard Acuti"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I've definitely thought a lot of this exact idea over the months. You added
>some definite benefits that I didn't even think of. I had no idea that
>Wal-Mart allowed RV'ers to overnight in their lots.
>
>I'm sure your letter to Wal-Mart was great. Just writing and suggesting that
>they shell out for charging stations and the pay equipment for EV'ers would
>probably not get them moving but suggesting the relationship between
>Wal-Mart, RV'ers and EV'ers is certainly a compelling arguement.
There are a number of stories of how RVers and Wal-mart got together.
The one that sounds the most likely is that Sam was an avid RVer and
had a connection to the community.
Wallyworld encourages RV parking (not camping) anywhere it is legal.
We (RVers) have had a battle in recent years from an unholy alliance
of Wallyworld haters, people jealous of others having RVs and RV
campground operators who have worked to have RV parking banned in
various communities. I'm an activist in that area, helping organize
RV boycotts and letter writing campaigns when we get any word of a
proposed ban. We're mostly successful.
Anyway, the profitable relationship between RVers and Wallyworld is
known and acknowledged by Wallyworld. They stay mostly officially
neutral in these ban battles but behind the scenes they help us on
occasion. They know that RVers are above-average customers.
It therefore would not be hard to sell this idea of selling power, I
don't think. RVs are everywhere. EVs are below the radar but could
ride on the backs of the RVers to get public charging stations. I
don't see how Wallywould could NOT do it if they can be shown that
they'll make money from the shopper AND from his vehicle. After all,
they are now in the gas retailing business.
>I think one downside that they may consider is maintenance of these devices.
>Weather will take it's toll but I also envision them being vandalized often
>late at night by bored kids running amok in the neighborhood. All
>communities have these types of hooligans. If it gets too expensive to
>repair them, Wal-Mart will just give up and remove them. Depending on the
>profit that they make from them.
I don't think that will be a problem. Stop by a self-serve car wash
that accepts plastic sometime and look at how they've vandal-proofed
the bill and plastic acceptors.
The second thing is, as part of its defense against personal injury
lawsuits, most, if not all Wallywords have the entire parking lot
covered by CCTV. I've had the opportunity to go in the security room
at our local store (catered the security types a meal), look around
and chat with the guys. I've never seen as many CCTV monitors in one
place in my life! Or DVRs. Nothing happens in the lot that isn't at
least recorded, if not actually monitored with human eyes. I don't
think vandalism would be any more a problem with charging stations
than it would be anything else they have outdoors.
>
>I'm not a huge fan of Wal-Mart, but mostly it's because they don't treat
>their workers well and because their stores really encourage knots of
>traffic congestion because they drive everyone else around them out of
>business. I'm not a rabid Wal-Mart hater though.
I too tended to have an ill-defined dislike of Wallyworld, mostly from
what I'd been fed by the media. Then I took a look for myself. What
I've learned from talking to wallyworld employees, reading their
insurance coverage documents (they had better coverage than I could
afford to buy my people) and so on made me realize yet again that the
media, with the help of some organized labor types, had made up from
whole cloth this story.
As for putting the mom and pops out of business, not so. The mom and
pops put themselves out of business by keeping a limited inventory,
surly manners and things like that. When the first thing out of a
merchant's mount is "I don't have it but I can order it", well, he's
putting himself out of business. All wallyworld did was raise the bar
for customer service. I'd be happy to discuss this more off-list, as
it's getting somewhat astray of the list charter.
There are things I don't like about Wallyworld - Importing China Inc.
for example but they're not much different than anyone else.
Here's an idea for you.
In areas where there are enough EVs to matter, why not get together
with the local chapters of the Good Sam's club, Escapees and other RV
groups (be careful of RV dealers - some of them are either tied to or
in sympathy with commercial campgrounds) and work up a proposal for
pay stations and present it to a store manager?
Perhaps something to the effect that if Wallyworld will pay for the
hardware and installation then the group will help police the area,
pick up trash, fix minor damage to the stations and such. And help
spread the word of the RV- and EV-friendly store.
I know from talking to several that store managers have a lot of
discretion with things like this and a decent budget to work with.
That a project would eventually pay for itself would be a
double-bonus. I bet that the store manager would be so shocked that
someone wasn't there with their hands out that he'd approve it just
from reflex :-)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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--- Begin Message ---
I just finished one with 16 T145's and a back seat.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 1:06 PM
Subject: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
> Wondering what is the most batteries anybody has gotten into a beetle
> without taking out the backseat.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just did a quick search on Lithium Manganese and
from what I found, it appears that these batteries
are not rechargable.
What application do you see for these batteries if
they are not rechargeable?
Mike Phillips wrote:
I attended a webcast of a similar nature. I was most hopeful about
Lithium Manganese. Any word on that at your conference?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This past week I attended the Advancements in Battery Technology & Power
Management conference and thought I'd share a couple of potentially
interesting tidbits:
- I noticed a familiar name from the EVDL on the attendee list (Dale
Glubrecht), but didn't manage to cross paths with him, although I tried
keeping an eye out during the networking breaks...
- GP Batteries' presentation focused on their TMF lead acid cell
technology (which they acquired by buying up Bolder Technologies). Bill
Dube's KillaCycle was featured as a prime example of the sort of power
these little batteries are capable of.
- Kokam did a presentation regarding their folded structure Li polymer
batteries. As most of us know, one of the key features of their product
is its high power capability (up to 40C!). One of the key examples in
Kokam's presentation was ProEV's racer and its winning record.
The high profile of both ProEV's car and Bill Dube's bike in these two
manufacturers' presentations clearly illustrates that there is
definitely value to the manufacturer in sponsoring EV racers.
- PowerPrecise Solutions presented their Li cell management system,
which includes active cell balancing. The key interesting feature of
this system is its ability to handle much longer strings of cells than
most (all?) other solutions. Strings of 50-100 cells are possible, with
the main limitation said to be related to timing for the communication
between cells. Data from an independent lab was presented that showed
how the cell balancing was able to bring a severely imbalanced pack into
close balance in about 2 cycles after being turned on. If balancing was
enabled during rest, the cells were brought into balance in about 14hrs,
just sitting with the system on. The presentation didn't provide much
by way of techinical details on how the system works and I haven't yet
had a chance to dig through their website, but this system certainly
appears to have the ability to make Li packs a more practical option for
EVers.
- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell management
and fuel gauging. One of the observations I found interesting is that
the differences in cell internal resistance can result in cell voltage
differences that swamp voltage differences due to cell imbalance to the
extent that purely voltage-based balancing schemes may actually
"correct" in the wrong direction. It was also noted that voltage
differences due to cell imbalance may remain too small to direct cell
balancing efforts except near the very end of discharge or (to a smaller
extent) the end of charge, which can greatly limit the amount of time
available for a cell balancing scheme to provide any correction.
- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell failures and
safety. A couple of the interesting points included the fact that one
must always expect LiIon cell failures due to internal shorts, and that
every 18650 cell includes a charge interrupt device (CID) internally.
Examples of X-ray and CT scan images of failed 18650 cells were provided
illustrating how very small metal fragments/contamination can cause
internal shorts between the electrodes in these spirally wound cells and
cause dramatic thermal failure of the entire pack. The significance of
the internal CID device (an aluminum disc switch that internally
open-circuits the cell if the internal pressure rises sufficiently) is
that if one of these ever opens in a long string of cells (like a few
hundred volt EV string), it will have to break full pack voltage and may
be unable to prevent an internal arc. So, it seems that if one is
intent on using small cells such as these to make up an EV pack, it is
probably best to parallel several cells and then series connect these
modules rather than paralleling long strings of single cells.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/14/06 1:10:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Would it be even faster if you could advance it and
add circuitry to lower the field strength?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My base moter in the CE now is a GE.It set the 8.801 record with just
static
> timing. Dennis
>
> >>
**New hi power batteries for the Currenteliminator are just a rumor...This
year the CE is just a bracket racer with hopes of the final round at the final
race of the year Pomona.I still have hundreds of rounds to go to get there.But
the press for EVs and a potential sponsor would be teriffic.I believe better
than runing 7s,although that 7# is also a 2006 goal. Remember the CE is only
certified to run 7.50.
We are in another
bracket race tommorow at Speedworld,can I keep that .005 average reaction
going?Confidence is Hi. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reminds me of the simple yet accurate way to weigh a car.
You need a ruler and a tire pressure gauge. Park on a smooth hard surface,
concrete is best.
Measure the footprint of tire 1, only the area in contact with the ground,
and multiply length x width to determine area in square inches. Now measure
the pressure in tire 1 in PSI, and multiply result by area. Now repeat with
tires 2, 3, and 4. Add the results. Now you have total weight, corner
weights, and F/R bias.
Very accurate. Nearly as repeatable as my $1700 corner scales.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 9:32 PM
Subject: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3
square yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's
ratio
> this is a very novel idea .. the only issue is getting a jeweller's scale
>
> may i humble suggest :
>
> cut a plywood sheet to match the paper size, paste the printout..
> cut the car image out .. weighing is easier .. kitchen scale can be used
>
> ..peekay
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 3:45 AM
> Subject: frontal area
>
>
> > On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:12:57 -0700 (PDT), David Dymaxion
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >You do have to be careful. Some manufacturers want to make the Cd
> > >sound as good as possible, so they'll just use the height*width of
> > >the care for the area. I think one of the best sources for aero info
> > >is <http://www.epa.gov/otaq/tcldata.htm>.
> >
> > Here's a very accurate method of measuring the frontal area of your
> > car. It is a variation of the old scientist's trick called graphical
> > integration, updated for the digital world.
> >
> > First, get 4 yard sticks or other known length objects and make a
> > square. Position this square upright in front of the car.
> >
> > Take your digital camera, zoom it to maximum optical power and get
> > back from the front of the car ever how far it takes to make the car
> > fill most of the frame. Squat down or put the camera on a tripod so
> > it is looking straight at the car at the level of its centerline.
> >
> > Snap the photo. Make two prints on as heavy a paper or cardboard as
> > your printer will feed. Resolution or quality does not matter.
> >
> > You'll need some sort of small scale or balance. An electronic
> > postage scale will work, as will a jeweler's scale (go to the jewelry
> > store if you have to), as will those little scales sold in head shops
> > for cutting dope :-)
> >
> > Take one print and very carefully cut out the square. If you used
> > yard sticks, that square represents 9 sq feet. Weight the square.
> > Divide the weight by the area (9 sq ft) to get the weight per square
> > foot.
> >
> > Next, very carefully cut out the outline of the front of your car.
> > Weight that cut-out. Divide the weight by the weight per square foot
> > that you computed above. Viola! The result is the area of the
> > frontal area in square feet.
> >
> > This is a very easy procedure and is amazingly accurate.
> >
> > Oh, the old scientist's trick? To integrate a curve, plot your data
> > on graph paper. Weigh the graph paper with the border removed, if
> > appropriate. Then cut out the curve along the X-axis and weight it.
> > Some simple ratio math and you have your area under the curve.
> >
> > There is some freeware software out there that can compute the area of
> > a designated data plot or image. I have it but I don't recall where
> > it came from. Frankly, it's easier and faster to just cut out the
> > shape and weigh it.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > >If anyone would like to do coastdowns with their car, I have a
> > >program that will calculate the rolling resistance and effective
> > >area, I'd be happy to run the numbers.
> >
> > Why don't you make that program available to list members? I have one
> > that I wrote a LONG time ago. It won't run under winders or else I'd
> > make it available.
> >
> > It would be nice to have a program out there for everyone to use so
> > that our computations would be identical.
> >
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.johngsbbq.com
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/305 - Release Date:
08/04/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new
Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Man wrote:
> Very accurate.
I'm not sure about that. For example, let's take a vehicle and weight
it on a certified or calibrated scale to get an accurate initial
number. Now let's use your tire measuring method. Now let's swap out
the tires for some smaller, thinner, narrower ones. How about some
22's with 1" tall stiff side walls? How about some huge mud tires?
How about some tires that are ~12" wide?
Can we get accurate weight measurements with any size and type of tire?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what you don't understand .. tends to give a feeling which is 'spooky'
yet, when we understand, debate, discuss and agree that what
was confusing is a reality .. things become 'different'
this is a very different document ..
will take some slow reading .. to understand better
..peekay
(i guess we can treat this 'idea' thrown up by me as a
'not to be discussed more for now' thingy .. can we
treat this thread as closed for now ....)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 12:50 AM
Subject: RE: OT ramble, was: popular 'science'
>
> >>.. that there is more power
> >>in that 'nothing' than we 'believe' ..>
> >>..peekay
>
> >What the HECK are you talking about?! Did you mean popular 'nonsense'?
> [snip]
>
> Though we joke about free energy and over unity devices on this list, (Got
> Tilley?) what if there was actually a model of physics that could explain
> it?
>
> I just finished reading a free book online. For those open-minded enough
to
> tackle the whole thing, I highly recommend it whether you buy into the
> concepts presented or not. (in my case it helped that I had been exposed
to
> many of the parts and pieces encompassed into this material for most of my
> life)
>
> This is definitely off-topic-
>
> Prologue to "Shift of the Ages: Scientific Proof for Ascension"-
> http://www.divinecosmos.com/cms/content/view/54/36/
>
> "Shift of the Ages: Scientific Proof for Ascension" complete text-
>
http://www.divinecosmos.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&s
ectionid=6&id=18&Itemid=36
>
> I would appreciate off-list feedback in the future from any list members
> that do decide to tackle it.
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> My EV and RE Project Pages-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/311 - Release Date: 13/04/2006
>
>
___________________________________________________________
Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets.
http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:24:23 -0400, "Mark Grasser"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Seriously though, about the remote. How cool, you plug the car in and the
>remote upstairs on the coffee table or in the kitchen, in your pocket,
>whatever,,, Shows the state of charge in a bar graph and percent. Another
>piece of technology already available is ampacity of the battery, directly
>tells you the age/life expectancy of the battery. (some of you will say I'm
>wacked, but it's already here and I am working on interfacing that data to
>marine CAN-Bus)
That would be super-cool and very practical. That would overcome one
major objection - not enough power to go out for the night. If the
wireless display would show both percent remaining and estimated miles
remaining based on past driving experience, one could look at the
display and know when he had enough to get through the evening. Whack
off enough quick charge to get through the evening's plans and then
finish charging at night.
A two-way remote would be even better. Via the remote let me crank up
the charge rate to max to save time while I'm showering and dressing
for the evening. Crank him back down later for a more gentle charge
and less peak demand at night.
Why the marine CANbus? Simpler than the automotive version?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
