EV Digest 5372
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Genny
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Genny
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Anyone know about status of EMB's ?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Anyone know about status of EMB's ?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Monster Garage
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Battery & Charging conference
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Anyone know about status of EMB's ?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) What car to buy for conversion
by "Alan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Knee Point - Does anyone understand this?
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re EV Safety, WAS: Monster Garage
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Who killed the electric car tickets sold out for Friday night
.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Remote control, was: EV mass market,
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Re EV Safety, WAS: Monster Garage
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) AC motors
by "Alan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3 square
yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's ratio
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) please remove me from mailing list
by "John Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC motors
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Last Chance - Tour de Sol Monte Carlo Rally invite
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:48:03 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 4/15/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> He's in England so the NEC isn't really a concern.
>
>Scotland actually!
Well, I was close enough for ICBMs, anyway :-)
This does have my curiosity up. Your ordinary house current is 240
volts like England, right?
If so, does that mean that tools that operate from these center-tapped
construction generators are specially made just for generator
operation? Or maybe use step-down transformers to run the tools from
utility power?
I'm now very curious as to how all this fits together.
Thanks,
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/15/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This does have my curiosity up. Your ordinary house current is 240
> volts like England, right?
Officially it's 230 volts now (harmonised with the rest of europe),
but most rural places are still tapped for 240V. 50Hz.
> If so, does that mean that tools that operate from these center-tapped
> construction generators are specially made just for generator
> operation? Or maybe use step-down transformers to run the tools from
> utility power?
Yes, the heavy yellow portable transformers are ubiquitous anywhere
there's construction work, or generators. They do not have any kind
of RCD (GFI) breaker, which means that nuisance trips don't happen,
but you can be pretty careless about getting stuff wet and still not
get a shock.
The transformers are quite a good resource actually. They are cheap,
and very robust. I used a 1.5kW one to make a dumb isolated charger
for my last EV.
> I'm now very curious as to how all this fits together.
Well, 110 is mostly only used at "point of load" for portable equipment.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:26 PM 13/04/06 +0530, peekay wrote:
ElectroMechanicalBatteries
these are basically flywheels which spin at very very high rpm's
65,000 or so
energy is stored by spinning them up
they supply electric power by generating power from
an AC generator built into them .. very compact ..
only if they went commercial .. maybe they have !
G'day peekay - and all
I don't know as to the speed, but Cat are offering a customer of mine an
"uninterruptible generator" that uses a flywheel to give 10 to 15 seconds
at 850kVa to carry through the diesel generator start-up time. Seems that
this is as big as Cat can offer in a UPS generator.
I believe that this is 1930s technology, though.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to recall Honda did a big study on these. A couple big problems
occurred. One of which was the affects of handling of the vehicle. The flywheel
would cause hysteresis and try to keep the vehicle in a straight line. The
another was failure of the bearing and decline of efficiency over a short
period. The cost was very expensive because of the safety shell they had to
keep it in in case of catastrophic failure ( flywheel flys apart). They were
trying for a hybrid combo electric vehicle with Zinc/Air battery and Flywheel
to maintain a charge.
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: At 09:26 PM 13/04/06 +0530, peekay
wrote:
>ElectroMechanicalBatteries
>
>these are basically flywheels which spin at very very high rpm's
>
>65,000 or so
>
>energy is stored by spinning them up
>
>they supply electric power by generating power from
>an AC generator built into them .. very compact ..
>
>only if they went commercial .. maybe they have !
G'day peekay - and all
I don't know as to the speed, but Cat are offering a customer of mine an
"uninterruptible generator" that uses a flywheel to give 10 to 15 seconds
at 850kVa to carry through the diesel generator start-up time. Seems that
this is as big as Cat can offer in a UPS generator.
I believe that this is 1930s technology, though.
Regards
James
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For me, the most discouraging part was how dangerous they made EVs seem.
I'd never seen MG before, and my wife watched this episode with me.
Afterward, her only comment was, "Wow, Electric cars are really dangerous.
Are you sure you should be out in the garage working on one? I don't want
you to get electrocuted."
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Viera
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 12:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Hi all,
Michaela Merz wrote:
> I don't know if we are talking about the same show here. The one I
> saw was biased towards ICE dragsters, told the viewers how dangerous
> electric cars are, spent $80,000 in 'freebies' and still couldn't win
> on the track.
I finally got a chance to watch the show after it'd been sitting on my
Tivo all week, and from an EVer's perspective, I'm just amazed! For
Rich, Shawn, and Jon to get that complex of a battery system working as
quickly as they did takes talent for sure... and I thought my JeepEV was
complicated!!! :-)
However, from a non-EV biased perspective, I'd agree with Michaela that
the show was disappointingly biased and didn't shed EVs in a
particularly good light. Though, I don't think the show was nearly as
bad as it could've been. BTW, I did find it entertaining to hear Jesse
talking about the build and his plans for it, because, IMO he really
came across sounding like he didn't know what the hell he was talking
about (especially at the beginning of the show).
> I did a quick (not representative) panel among friends I asked to
> watch the show (about 40) that are not involved with (but are
> interested in) electric vehicles. If interested, I can post my list
> of questions about EVs and the answers before and after the show.
I'm interested in seeing this data... I think it could help further my
understanding of the general public's views of EVs and how they react
positively/negatively to what is shown/said about them.
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody know what's happening with Fortu (www.fortu.de)? The Li-ion
technology sounded so promising, but it seems like it will always be ready
"next year". Also, when you go to their web site now, it simply throws you
over to a contact page.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 11:21 PM
To: Joel Hacker
Subject: Re: Battery & Charging conference
No worries, they are rechargeable. They are just not as volitile as
Li-Ion, and Manganese is cheaper.
Here is the presentation in its entirety. 1 hour. Free sign up.
http://w.on24.com/r.htm?e=21176&s=1&k=4BADABDB562ADB02DEB955BD3A5B3CEC
I can email you the notes they gave us.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just did a quick search on Lithium Manganese and
> from what I found, it appears that these batteries
> are not rechargable.
>
> What application do you see for these batteries if
> they are not rechargeable?
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> > I attended a webcast of a similar nature. I was most hopeful about
> > Lithium Manganese. Any word on that at your conference?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <ev@> wrote:
> >
> >>This past week I attended the Advancements in Battery Technology &
Power
> >>Management conference and thought I'd share a couple of potentially
> >>interesting tidbits:
> >>
> >>- I noticed a familiar name from the EVDL on the attendee list (Dale
> >>Glubrecht), but didn't manage to cross paths with him, although I
tried
> >>keeping an eye out during the networking breaks...
> >>
> >>- GP Batteries' presentation focused on their TMF lead acid cell
> >>technology (which they acquired by buying up Bolder Technologies).
Bill
> >>Dube's KillaCycle was featured as a prime example of the sort of power
> >>these little batteries are capable of.
> >>
> >>- Kokam did a presentation regarding their folded structure Li polymer
> >>batteries. As most of us know, one of the key features of their
product
> >>is its high power capability (up to 40C!). One of the key examples in
> >>Kokam's presentation was ProEV's racer and its winning record.
> >>
> >>The high profile of both ProEV's car and Bill Dube's bike in these two
> >>manufacturers' presentations clearly illustrates that there is
> >>definitely value to the manufacturer in sponsoring EV racers.
> >>
> >>- PowerPrecise Solutions presented their Li cell management system,
> >>which includes active cell balancing. The key interesting feature of
> >>this system is its ability to handle much longer strings of cells than
> >>most (all?) other solutions. Strings of 50-100 cells are
possible, with
> >>the main limitation said to be related to timing for the communication
> >>between cells. Data from an independent lab was presented that showed
> >>how the cell balancing was able to bring a severely imbalanced
pack into
> >>close balance in about 2 cycles after being turned on. If
balancing was
> >>enabled during rest, the cells were brought into balance in about
14hrs,
> >>just sitting with the system on. The presentation didn't provide much
> >>by way of techinical details on how the system works and I haven't yet
> >>had a chance to dig through their website, but this system certainly
> >>appears to have the ability to make Li packs a more practical
option for
> >>EVers.
> >>
> >>- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell management
> >>and fuel gauging. One of the observations I found interesting is that
> >>the differences in cell internal resistance can result in cell voltage
> >>differences that swamp voltage differences due to cell imbalance
to the
> >>extent that purely voltage-based balancing schemes may actually
> >>"correct" in the wrong direction. It was also noted that voltage
> >>differences due to cell imbalance may remain too small to direct cell
> >>balancing efforts except near the very end of discharge or (to a
smaller
> >>extent) the end of charge, which can greatly limit the amount of time
> >>available for a cell balancing scheme to provide any correction.
> >>
> >>- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell
failures and
> >>safety. A couple of the interesting points included the fact that one
> >>must always expect LiIon cell failures due to internal shorts, and
that
> >>every 18650 cell includes a charge interrupt device (CID) internally.
> >>Examples of X-ray and CT scan images of failed 18650 cells were
provided
> >>illustrating how very small metal fragments/contamination can cause
> >>internal shorts between the electrodes in these spirally wound
cells and
> >>cause dramatic thermal failure of the entire pack. The
significance of
> >>the internal CID device (an aluminum disc switch that internally
> >>open-circuits the cell if the internal pressure rises sufficiently) is
> >>that if one of these ever opens in a long string of cells (like a few
> >>hundred volt EV string), it will have to break full pack voltage
and may
> >>be unable to prevent an internal arc. So, it seems that if one is
> >>intent on using small cells such as these to make up an EV pack, it is
> >>probably best to parallel several cells and then series connect these
> >>modules rather than paralleling long strings of single cells.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>
> >>Roger.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: Anyone know about status of EMB's ?
> At 09:26 PM 13/04/06 +0530, peekay wrote:
> >ElectroMechanicalBatteries
> >
> >these are basically flywheels which spin at very very high rpm's
> >
> >65,000 or so
> >
> >energy is stored by spinning them up
> >
> >they supply electric power by generating power from
> >an AC generator built into them .. very compact ..
> >
> >only if they went commercial .. maybe they have !
>
> G'day peekay - and all
>
> I don't know as to the speed, but Cat are offering a customer of mine an
> "uninterruptible generator" that uses a flywheel to give 10 to 15 seconds
> at 850kVa to carry through the diesel generator start-up time. Seems that
> this is as big as Cat can offer in a UPS generator.
>
> I believe that this is 1930s technology, though.
>
Hi EVerybody;
Yeah! We had them in the Army, back in the 60's in Taiwan,called "No
Breaks" they were a motor alternater setup thast ran on commercial power, if
that went down, the spinning MG set was clutched to the Cat Diseasel, it was
started up FAST, when the electrical clutch ingaged. Sure was a surprise if
you were standing there when it DID! I'm sure it was hard on the Diseasel,
as it was slammed up to operating speed in a few nanoseconds? But they
didn't seem to care.
Seeya
Bob
> Regards
>
> James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
My dad and I want to make an ev. I've read Jerry Halstead's "journal" and am
ready to rip into a car, but don't have one yet. We drive about 30 miles
into town 30 out and then some around town, so we'll need quite a bit of
range unless we put solar panels on the car or something. The question is:
what car should we get. There are usually 5 of us in the family at one time.
We don't need a van and were thinking more like a five-seater. Our budget is
nothing special. My dad says we might want to get a pick-up because it could
handle all the batteries but then we all wouldn't fit in a 2/3-seater
pick-up. The car won't be new because we're going to rip out the engine, but
it should have a good body. Of course, you all already know all this because
you're ev fanatics.
All ideas and suggestions will be appreciated, Alan Smith
--
// Quotes from yours truly -------------------------
"You don't forget, you just don't remember."
"Maturity resides in the mind."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everyone, Newby here,
The following is a quote from my controller manual.
It has a setting that is not clear to me.
This is controlling a shunt motor. What does it mean by "START" ?
Does it mean that field weakening starts to gradually kick in at some point?
Or, as the next sentence implies, at some point all FW is fully in effect?
It seems contradictory to me.
FUNCTION 24 FIELD WEAKENING START (or MOTOR KNEE POINT)
This function allows for setting the armature current at
which minimum field current will be achieved.
Range 0 to 350 Amps
Setting 0 to 255
Resolution 1.625 per set unit
Example: Setting of 26 = 42 amps.
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks good , ,,, I think you picked the right car and the right batteries ,
as sombody who has been lunging ton's of lead all my EV life , I dream of
Li. What is you total battery weight going to be ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 1:12 AM
Subject: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
Well, if the pictures of the front battery rack weren't enough to scare
you
away, here's a page I put together about the recently-installed rear
batteries:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/BackBatteryRack.html
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: Monster Garage
> For me, the most discouraging part was how dangerous they made EVs seem.
> I'd never seen MG before, and my wife watched this episode with me.
> Afterward, her only comment was, "Wow, Electric cars are really dangerous.
> Are you sure you should be out in the garage working on one? I don't want
> you to get electrocuted."
>
> Bill Dennis
>
Hi Bill;
Has your wife ever seen a good gas fire, or blowup? She sits over enough
gas energy to blow everything up if it gets loose, in driving her ICE
mobile. Movies carry the explosion thing to extreame, though. We all love a
good explosion, or some of us do<G>! At least pulling out a few fuses can
kill the explosion, or short circus thing, that she is worried about.
I think EV's are a hellova lot safer to work on than gas cars, but with
both a bit of caution is in order.Don't drop yur un- insulated wrenches into
the battery bank. Ask "Plasma Boy" about that<g>! He took the ubiquitus
"Short Circus" to new hights!
My shortened wrenches worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
Thanks for the reminder!
I booked 2 tickets for Sat 22 (Earth Day!)
I'd love to go by EV, but don't want to leave it behind in SF
as the one-way distance is close to its range....
(And it does not yet have an onboard charger)
I will try to arrange for train transport, but the safest bet
may be taking the Hybrid...
Anybody going to Kabuki in San Francisco who needs a ride along
the line from Sunnyvale to San Francisco?
The rear couch in the Prius is available.
Seats 3 if you are friends ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:19 PM
To: SFEVA; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Electric Vehicle
Discussion List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Zappylist
Subject: Who killed the electric car tickets sold out for Friday night.
I just got a ticket for Saturday night. Only a few are left. Go on line to
get them. www.sffs.org.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How cool is that -
At your next party you pick up the remote, as someone for the time
and say "OK, time to fill up my car" and click the car's charger on.
15 years ago I worked for Philips Electronics, the 2-way remotes
for TV and VCR were pretty new in those days.
Today it is no problem to get feedback on a remote's display and
check (a car's) status from the couch if it is equipped with
this interface.
Sounds handy for the people in hot climate: while you finish your
drink on the terrace or as soon as you get in line for the register
in the supermarket you grab the car remote, click the A/C on
and when you get in the car 5 minutes later it already is at
a comfortable temperature.
The remote communication should not be limited to charging, but
also diagnostics, (past) trip info & energy use, and so on.
Battery status (low battery detect, balancing and other BMS info)
and component temperatures and (past) fault codes should be
accessible, so when hooking the remote to a PC, the car can be
diagnosed from a distance and a detailed report can be made.
And while we are throwing up ideas - why not have an intercom
between car and remote? Works like a 2-way radio. Now we have
some serious "Kit" (Knight rider) brainwaves.... Better stop.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 12:24 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV mass market,
Seriously though, about the remote. How cool, you plug the car in and the
remote upstairs on the coffee table or in the kitchen, in your pocket,
whatever,,, Shows the state of charge in a bar graph and percent. Another
piece of technology already available is ampacity of the battery, directly
tells you the age/life expectancy of the battery. (some of you will say I'm
wacked, but it's already here and I am working on interfacing that data to
marine CAN-Bus)
Mark Grasser
Subject: EV mass market, was: Monster Garage
> John,
>
>> These sorts of people are NOT going to EVER do
>> anything any more technical than plug something
>> in and click the remote.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
423 lbs rear (call it 450 with related paraphernalia)
184 lbs front (call it 210 with related paraphernalia)
So about 660 lbs. total, giving 36Kwh nominal.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of steve clunn
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 6:49 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
Looks good , ,,, I think you picked the right car and the right batteries ,
as sombody who has been lunging ton's of lead all my EV life , I dream of
Li. What is you total battery weight going to be ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 1:12 AM
Subject: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
> Well, if the pictures of the front battery rack weren't enough to scare
> you
> away, here's a page I put together about the recently-installed rear
> batteries:
>
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/BackBatteryRack.html
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, you're preaching to the choir. I wasn't discussing my wife's
experience/rationality/etc. I was merely commenting on the fact here was an
intelligent non-EV person who watched the show (she's WAY smarter than I
am), and that was the biggest impression that she got from it, how unsafe
EVs are. It has nothing to do with comparative ICE safety. It's all about
impressions. I fear that most people who watched the show and were
unfamiliar with EVs would come away thinking the same.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 6:56 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re EV Safety, WAS: Monster Garage
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: Monster Garage
> For me, the most discouraging part was how dangerous they made EVs seem.
> I'd never seen MG before, and my wife watched this episode with me.
> Afterward, her only comment was, "Wow, Electric cars are really dangerous.
> Are you sure you should be out in the garage working on one? I don't want
> you to get electrocuted."
>
> Bill Dennis
>
Hi Bill;
Has your wife ever seen a good gas fire, or blowup? She sits over enough
gas energy to blow everything up if it gets loose, in driving her ICE
mobile. Movies carry the explosion thing to extreame, though. We all love a
good explosion, or some of us do<G>! At least pulling out a few fuses can
kill the explosion, or short circus thing, that she is worried about.
I think EV's are a hellova lot safer to work on than gas cars, but with
both a bit of caution is in order.Don't drop yur un- insulated wrenches into
the battery bank. Ask "Plasma Boy" about that<g>! He took the ubiquitus
"Short Circus" to new hights!
My shortened wrenches worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, the nice part was that most of the rear batteries tuck in under the
convertible top, so very little space was lost. And they don't jut into the
truck space either, so all of that area was retained. Plus, there's now
room under the hood where I could build a small container if I wanted to
recover any space lost. The car has "almost" as much cargo room as it
originally did.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of steve clunn
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 6:49 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
Looks good , ,,, I think you picked the right car and the right batteries ,
as sombody who has been lunging ton's of lead all my EV life , I dream of
Li. What is you total battery weight going to be ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 1:12 AM
Subject: Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
> Well, if the pictures of the front battery rack weren't enough to scare
> you
> away, here's a page I put together about the recently-installed rear
> batteries:
>
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/BackBatteryRack.html
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've found that the people that can afford it buy AC motors instead of DC.
Is it really worth it? Are the AC motors that much better than the DC ones?
Just wondering which way to go.
Thanks, Alan
--
// Quotes from yours truly -------------------------
"You don't forget, you just don't remember."
"Maturity resides in the mind."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Joe and others,
When I do my tire deflection test and determine the air pressure that is
needed, I first weigh the car on a public weighing scale that is just down
the street from me.
Next, I must find the foot print patch of the tire tread. I than jack all
four tires off a level floor using a floor jack and four jack stands.
Then looking on the side of the tire, which my reads, 65 PSI @ 2650 lbs load
rating, I air the tire up to 65 PSI while the tire is off the floor.
Takes some white poster paper and lay one piece below each tire. Ink the
tires with a ink pad and roller.
Lower the tire and car down evenly until you have the whole weight of the
car on the poster paper, which will make a imprint of the tire tread. You
now can calculated the area of tire print contact to the ground. You will
have to average out the length between the longer and shorter tread prints.
While you are at it, you can measure the deflection of the tire, to see if
you have the right air pressure or even the right type of tires for your
rig.
To measure the deflection, place the whole weight of the tire on the floor,
measure from the floor to a reference mark on the wheel. I normally measure
from the floor to the bottom of the wheel rim where it touches the rubber of
the tire.
On my tire, lets say that reads 4.75 inches. Now jack that one tire where
it now just touches the floor. Measure it again to the same reference marks,
and let say it is 5.00 inches.
5.00 - 4.75 = 0.25 inch which is my deflection of my tires at 65 lbs.
The 0.25 inch is a hard firm ride. Large semi trucks run there deflection
at about 0.38 inch. Manufacturers like to run this deflection at about 0.50
inch for a softer ride.
A 5 percent of the height of the tire from wheel rim to grade is a good
start to work with.
Some manufacturers ran there deflection too low, which cause all the tire
problems we had on the Firestone tires. A higher deflection rate at high
speed and a high road temperature will cause tire failer.
While my tires are on grade, I will than lower the air pressure until by
tire height from grade to the wheel rim is about 4.625 for a 3/8 deflection
and then test out the ride and record the AH per mile. Increase or decrease
the PSI as need for best performance.
My total weight on the scales is 6820 lbs with 4620 lbs on the rear and 2240
lbs on the front. This is 2310 lbs on the rear wheels and 1120 lbs on the
front wheels.
Then - (65 x 2310)/2650 lbs load rating mark on the tire = 56.6 PSI for the
rears.
(65 x 1120)/2650 = 47.3 PSI for the fronts.
So I have the rears at 55 PSI and the fronts at 45 PSI.
So when I read the square inch times tire pressure method, I just had to
test this out right now. Which was simple, because I had all the data
recorded, here is the results.
My rear tires patch area is 7 x 6 = 42 inches or 84 sq inches for the rear
of the car.
My front tire patch area is 7 x 3.5 = 25 inches or 50 sq. inches for the
front of the car.
Note: Measuring the square area of the tire print, I had to average between
the half of the tread prints that was longer to the tread prints that were
shorter and rounded out to the next closest number.
The rear weight becomes 84 si x 55 psi = 4620 lbs.
The front weight becomes 50 si x 45 psi = 2250 lbs.
Total estimate weight = 4620 + 2250 = 6870 lbs.
Now how close can that be, it is only 50 lbs difference than the scale
weight. The scale weight is said to accurate in with + or - %.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3
square yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's
ratio
> Could you wrap a piece of thread/cord/string around the tire footprint and
> then roll the car off that location to measure the area inside the
> perimeter?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for
> 3
> square yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's
> ratio
>
>
> > On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:17:57 -0700, "Electric Man"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >Reminds me of the simple yet accurate way to weigh a car.
> > >You need a ruler and a tire pressure gauge. Park on a smooth hard
> surface,
> > >concrete is best.
> > >Measure the footprint of tire 1, only the area in contact with the
> ground,
> > >and multiply length x width to determine area in square inches. Now
> measure
> > >the pressure in tire 1 in PSI, and multiply result by area. Now repeat
> with
> > >tires 2, 3, and 4. Add the results. Now you have total weight, corner
> > >weights, and F/R bias.
> > >Very accurate. Nearly as repeatable as my $1700 corner scales.
> >
> > I've been thinking about that technique myself. How do you accurately
> > measure the footprint? I'm probably being paranoid about accuracy
> > since I've yet to have the opportunity to compare corner scales to
> > this type of measurement. What I was thinking was a hunk of plex
> > thick enough to support a wheel's weight, up on short stilts so that
> > the contact patch could be photographed. I also thought about
> > spraying around each tire with some water soluble dye or maybe chalk
> > powder, then rolling the car out of the way and measuring the area of
> > the patch that remains.
> >
> > Obviously you've come up with something simpler. Spill the beans,
> > dude :-)
> >
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.johngsbbq.com
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My first ev was on a 62 vw frame , totale weight with 20 golfers was 3200 ,
should have done well , my next was a Murcurey lynx , same weight but much
better proformance , a 30 mile trip that I make once a week , vw 40 mph ,
lynx did it at 60 , after the lynx the took all the stuff form the vw and
put it in a fork ranger , 3800 I belive and It did better the the vw. It may
have been that the vw bearing were over weighted , I don't know what made it
proform poorly . ----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
On Apr 14, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Chris wrote:
Wondering what is the most batteries anybody has gotten into a beetle
without taking out the backseat.
The old (real :-) Beetle?
There used to be a shop that rebuilt EVs in Seattle that would do an
electric EV on special order. They managed to get 16 golf cart batteries
in a Beetle with all the seats intact. The front trunk was no longer
usable as a trunk.
The Beetle is one of those vehicles that doesn't make a good freeway EV.
Its got the aerodynamics of a brick! But they are the coolest looking
antique on the road today - IMHO.
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- Begin Message ---
I guess it depends on what you want and exactly what price is "afford".
Looks like if you don't have a large amount of money, DC systems for power
are still better bang for the buck. Here is a good quote from John Wayland:
Hello to All,
I always enjoy the AC vs DC debate. One point very rarely brought up
though, is what you get in terms of performance in return for your
dollars invested, especially when the price of the AC system hovers in
the $8000-$10,000 range. Yes, a 68 kw AC system can be had for about
$6000, but that's on the low side of power for a conversion and is more
comparable in power to older tech 120V DC systems. To get up to the
power level of today's common 144V-156V DC systems being used that
easily top 100 kw, the AC system will cost you closer to $8000. For
$8000-$10,000, you get an AC system with about 100-130 kw of power. For
the same dollars for DC....listen up newbies and pro AC folks, you get
up to 600 kw!!!! I'm talking about raw power that can be easily had with
a Zilla Z2K, stout AGM batteries, and either one BIG DC motor or a pair
of DC motors. Now, in real life, due to the fact that batteries sag
under high current loads, no one that I know presently has actually
gotten their 600 kw of power delivered in their EV, but I do know that
350 kw has been had :-) We're talking about THREE times the power for
the same price...I'll repeat....THREE times the power for the same
price! Not just two times the power, THREE times the power!
From Metric Mind's web page, specialists on AC systems (good folks to
do business with) comes this statement:
>Zilla 2K comes to mind....with a DC motor becomes $6100, just $800
less than a complete AC solution (100 kw).
It goes on to admit that even the Z1K at half the power of the Z2K still
has more power than this AC system, but the power level thing is
down-played. The problem I have is where the Z2K, a 600 kw system is
compared to the 100 kw AC system, where this part is left out.....The
Z2K Zilla package delivers SIX times the power for the same price (if a
powerful enough battery pack is used) and in practical terms, it
delivers THREE times the power!
A nice 100-130 kw AC system 'can' match the power delivery of the
average gas car, but so can an affordable 100-130 kw DC system.
The big difference in this power range, is that a simple pack of just 13
AGM 12V batteries (156V) and a Zilla Z1K will easily make 130 kw of
delivered power. Here's the approximate cost to do this....$2000 for the
Z1K LV model, $1450 for 13 Optimas or Orbitals, and $1600 for a 9 inch
DC motor, for a total 130 kw package of $5050. A 100-130 kw AC system
will cost you about $7000, but to run it to the power level of around
100 kw, you need a 300V battery pack. That pack will cost twice as much
as the 156V pack for the DC system, even if you run smaller AGM
batteries so that the overall pack weight is the same (same approx.
range) as the 13-battery DC pack. So, for $7000 for the inverter-motor
combo and $2800 of batteries you are up to $9800! We're looking at twice
the cost for the same level of performance. When using battery
management modules, the cost of these is doubled with the 300+V AC
system, too.
Am I dissing AC? Of course not. I love AC. My Insight has it, many of
the forklifts I work on have it, and one of my favorite EVs I've driven,
the EV1 had it. From time to time, I think about converting Blue Meanie
to a 130 kw AC system. After all, I already have a really fast DC Datsun
1200, why not have a little regen fun and do the other 1200 as an AC
system? The only problem I have is price for what you get in return.
With similar weight lead acid battery packs, I'll pit my DC powered car
to 'any' AC powered car in terms of range per charge, 0-60 acceleration,
top speed, and over-all fun factor. On the other hand, a direct drive AC
Blue Meanie with a higher tech battery pack is a fun concept.
From time to time, I get to hang out with Victor (Metric Mind). A few
weeks ago, he and I got together at his place. I found myself smiling at
his latest AC system with a very compact inverter module and a motor
that was, well, more 'motor-like' than some of his other square AC
motors. It screamed 'Blue Meanie' at me. I also nearly tripped over
stacks of Ovonic NiMH batteries, the same models that were used in the
EV1 I drove for 140 miles per charge years ago! I was thinking a set of
them and that nifty compact AC system would turn Blue Meanie into a 150
mile per charge machine, while still maintaining 'respectable'
performance. Alas.....it would cost about $10,000 to get these toys.
For now, I'll be putting a pack of Hawkers into Blue Meanie to get it
back to snuff (the 6.5 year old Optimas are finally ready to be
recycled). Until I take the AC plunge, I guess I'll have to settle for
0-60 in six seconds, a 120+ mph top speed, and the 'city driving only'
range of 25 miles per charge (unless I get some really new model Hawkers
I'm not supposed to talk about yet).
Kudos to Victor for helping to make AC systems available to backyard
converters. It's great to have these systems available at more
reasonable prices than the $20-$30k systems of the late 90's!
See Ya.....John Wayland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:32 AM
Subject: AC motors
I've found that the people that can afford it buy AC motors instead of DC.
Is it really worth it? Are the AC motors that much better than the DC
ones?
Just wondering which way to go.
Thanks, Alan
--
// Quotes from yours truly -------------------------
"You don't forget, you just don't remember."
"Maturity resides in the mind."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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--
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--- End Message ---
