EV Digest 5382
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Otmar's motor speed sensor - where to buy?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Avcon issues
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Otmar's motor speed sensor - where to buy?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Avcon issues
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Pack cooling/heating conduit
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Some problems to solve
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Upcoming EVents in Florida
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: longest range?
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Flynn Research and Boeing Phantom Works project
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Pack cooling/heating conduit
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Breaking in New Batteries
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Avcon issues
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Some problems to solve
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Switched Capacitor Equalization of Long Strings WAS: Some problems
to solve
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Upcoming EVents in Florida
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Avcon issues
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/17/06 10:44:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
Date: 4/17/06 10:44:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rich Rudman)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
> Bill Dube' >>
> *******BILL And ALL,THERE ARE NO, REPEAT (NO) BY PASS CONTACTORS on the
> Current Eliminator and there has NEVER been bypass contactors on the
CE...With the
> exception of field bypass.She ran 8.801 with 900 battery amps and 28***6.5
amp hr.
Inspira
> batteries in series. ***and over 300 passes on the batteries when it ran
8.801 Its the motor work Bill!!! Dennis Berube with
4000+
> safe qt.mi. runs
>
Frankly we used 4 times the power Dennis used to Go 8.801, and were probably
getting close to if not exceding what Jim Ludiker and Ken Koch were using
on thier dragester.
Since.. we had the same two motors, and the same two controllers.. and
Lions.
Our rough guess was that the MG car was well ober 5000lbs.. and had a 3800
rpm Stall, This basicly robbed our launch, and even at that we had wheel
spin out beyond 200 Ft.
Yea a light chassis.. and a well done motor... and you don't need much real
power to get the JOB done.
I concur it's the Motors Stupid!!!
Madman
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: Otmar's motor speed sensor - where to buy?
> Hello All,
> There's been a bit of talk about the speed sensor the Hairball likes
> to see, and some of it has been described in a way that is particular
> to one situation, so I figure it's time I lay down the core data so
> you all can determine what might work for you.
>
> 1) A speed sensor is not required to run the Zilla controller, but it
> is highly recommended. It is required in order to use the over-speed
> cutoff as well as the "stall detect" which protects your motor
> commutator from people who try to "hill hold" with the motor.
>
> 2) The 2171 Hall effect sensor that I sell works quite well, but it
> does not fit well for everyone. Pictures that clarify the
> installation requirements are online in this directory:
> http://cafeelectric.com/products/pics/Zoloxpics/
> If you mount it like that then it should work well and you can ignore
> the rest of this message.
>
> 3) The speed sensor input to the Hairball requires four pulses per
> revolution. The Hairball pulls the sensor line up to 12V with a 2.61K
> ohm resistor and the sensor pulls it low. It normally does this when
> the magnet is in front of the sensor.
>
> 4) I stock have a stand alone hall effect sensor with loose magnets.
> This is a experimental setup that can be made to work in situations
> where the end of the motor shaft is not accessible. Picture of the
> sensor here:
> http://cafeelectric.com/images/HallSensor.jpg
> This is the one that Roland is using, and I've not heard how well
> it's working and I don't know if he has checked to insure it doesn't
It works good, still works even at a bit over 6000 rpm. The motor rpm is
limited anyway below that rpm driving this 7000 lb EV at a 400 amp limited
with the Warp 9 motor. Still waiting for my GE 11 motor back from the GE
motor shop which has double the torque at 1/2 the ampere at that rpm.
It drives the Stewart Warner Tach with out any further mod. Roland
> drop out at very high RPM. But this is good for those who do not shy
> away from making a ring of magnets and testing the system. If someone
> else wants to try to fabricate around this system I do have sensors
> and magnets in stock. Be aware though that I consider it experimental
> since I have not checked the limits of such a system myself yet.
>
> 5) For those people who are not using the 2171S stock sensor and want
> to make something else work this is the important timing information:
> Since the signal needs to be filtered to remove noise from the
> wiring, it is designed to work up to 12,000 RPM at 50% duty cycle.
> You sharp onces have probably already figured out that you can drop
> either the high or low duty cycle to 25% if you only need 6000 RPM.
> But leave yourself at least a couple thousand RPM over your expected
> max RPM for security.
>
> Hopefully this covers most of the questions and makes it clear why
> normal low duty cycle CDI pickups will not drive the input at higher
> RPM.
>
> Have fun!
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> Now accepting resumes. Please see:
> http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My Ranger has been sitting all day with the yellow warning light and no charge!
I tried 4 different Avcon controllers, and every one says "the EV is not
connected", although one did clunk its contactor, then say it was connected for
zero seconds. I've cleaned the input's pins, but don't know what else to do --
ideas?
The pilot signal would be my first suspect, since the one commonality to
all four of your failed connections is... your Ranger. If you've lost
your inlet's 12v pilot signal somehow, all Avcon boxes would refuse to
supply power.
What kind of Avcon controllers do you have? ICS200B? Adaptor Box from
AvconEV.com?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My GM sensor doesn't have magnets. Looking at the one in my 95 Grand Am,
It is a sensor just like the one pictured, but the encoder is a sheet
metal one. But I think it is variable reluctance type, reading open
until metal passes and pulling to ground a 5V signal, I will look it up
tongiht and get back to ya.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geez, bite my head off.
How would I know that Dennis is not using a by-pass contactor? The
inner workings of his dragster are guarded like Area 51. :-) We can
only guess how he makes the CE go so fast.
A few years ago he was talking about how he was frying contactors on
a regular basis, so I (foolishly) assumed there was some sort of
by-pass involved. This is how most folks fry contactors. Dennis must
have been frying them in some other way.
If he isn't running a by-pass, then typical Li-Ion batteries
should work just fine (with a BMS.) If he can afford them, then he
should put them in and make his rail go as fast as the NRHA allows.
The point I was making is that typical Li-Ion batteries
can't take uncontrolled current draws without serious problems. This
is probably why the Milwaukee tool packs have a current limit
circuit. If you draw too much current for too long, they heat up
beyond the critical temperature and then a runaway chemical reaction begins.
Bill Dube'
At 11:35 PM 4/17/2006, you wrote:
Gee Bill maybe Dennis doesn't need to use bypass...
Or anything other than the Zilla and a few hundred Battery amps to bracket
race with.???
Oh and Excuse me For doing a Lion EV using 2 1800 amp GZillas, and no
bypassing...
And we defeated the internal current limits inside the V28 packs.
We only used 3600 amps of the 4200 that coulda been used.
Gee no road flares... no saftey, No breakers... Nuthing... We just flamed
out two 11.7 inch motors.. No battery damage.
If Dennis had 1/2 this pack we would be in the 7s before the Route 66 Event.
What's your excuse???
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
> It would be tricky to make Li-Ion batteries withstand the current
> surge of a by-pass contactor. Unless you went with a different
> control system, (like twin Zilla's or something) Li-Ion batteries
> might be a problem for the CE. In general, you must load Li-Ion cells
> within carefully prescribed limits.
>
> The 18650 laptop cells that folks have suggested could overheat
> internally if you draw too much current for more than just an
> instant. Once these laptop cells get too hot, it is like lighting the
> fuse on a road flare.
>
> One of the duties of a typical Li-Ion BMS is to protect the
> cells from too much current during discharge. I can't imagine how you
> could make that work with a by-pass contactor type system. Perhaps it
> can be done, but it would not be simple, that is for sure.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
> At 03:39 PM 4/17/2006, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 4/17/06 2:22:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> ><< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
> > Date: 4/17/06 2:22:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rich Rudman)
> > Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >
> > Just what makes you think you are so Special Dennis???
> > The rest of us have to make our own BMS...
> > Why not you???
> >
> > Those little modular chargers are in effect a prettey Good BMS. So you
> > already have what you need for Lead.
> >
> > The Lion stuff needs a BMS or a LOT of little chargers.. Heck a stack
of
> > those Z28 Lions and 6 chargers.. and well Looky here..
> > You too can play with Lions...
> > That should be simple enough for you.
> > It might take you more than 15 minutes to Bilk charge....I expect..
> >
> > Madman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > \----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
> > . Dennis Berube >>
> > > ***To much work and money for me to just rebreak my own record.At
this
> > point
> > > I should not be paying for batteries or the bms. D.Berube >>
> >**Rich I am not special and I have my own bulk and bms for lead which I
paid
> >for.The CE has been very sucessful both on the track and on the trade
show
> >circuit and I think it still has the all out record,so if a litho
> >co.wants me to
> >rebreak the old record they can supply the goods.Now if you or someone
else
> >takes that measly 8 second record I will spend my own money again to
> >rebreak the
> >record... Dennis
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have my own charge box - they're all public charging here in
Vacaville, all the same models.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > My Ranger has been sitting all day with the yellow warning light
and no charge!
> > I tried 4 different Avcon controllers, and every one says "the EV
is not
> > connected", although one did clunk its contactor, then say it was
connected for
> > zero seconds. I've cleaned the input's pins, but don't know what
else to do --
> > ideas?
> >
> >
>
> The pilot signal would be my first suspect, since the one
commonality to
> all four of your failed connections is... your Ranger. If you've lost
> your inlet's 12v pilot signal somehow, all Avcon boxes would refuse to
> supply power.
>
> What kind of Avcon controllers do you have? ICS200B? Adaptor Box from
> AvconEV.com?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/18/06 7:22:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
Date: 4/18/06 7:22:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Geez, bite my head off.
How would I know that Dennis is not using a by-pass contactor? The
inner workings of his dragster are guarded like Area 51. :-) We can
only guess how he makes the CE go so fast.
**** No Bill its area 52 get with it He He
A few years ago he was talking about how he was frying contactors on
a regular basis, so I (foolishly) assumed there was some sort of
by-pass involved. This is how most folks fry contactors. Dennis must
have been frying them in some other way.
*** In all fairness to Bill,CE1 did have a contactor controller back in 1991
and did burn points on a few contactors.
If he isn't running a by-pass, then typical Li-Ion batteries
should work just fine (with a BMS.) If he can afford them, then he
should put them in and make his rail go as fast as the NRHA allows.
***I will not spend funds of my own until someone takes my record no need
too.If a battery co. or other wants a new record CE is ready to run 7s.I am
sure
someone will take it someday though,records are made to be broken.Someone
please hurry though I am itching to run a 6 something just need a little
push.*****
The point I was making is that typical Li-Ion batteries
can't take uncontrolled current draws without serious problems. This
is probably why the Milwaukee tool packs have a current limit
circuit. If you draw too much current for too long, they heat up
beyond the critical temperature and then a runaway chemical reaction begins.
Bill Dube'
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cloroplast is V-2 fire rated. So it won't extinguish itself or it
would be V-0. It does go out inside of 5 minutes which is the same as
the V-0 rating. It's just that it drips onto a cotton ball and lights
it on fire.
Anything will burn if there is a continuous source. If the wood
spacers caught fire it would be worse. So Cloroplast is an improvement.
Thanks for the insight.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> but note, corrugated plastic is flammable.
>
> I didn't think that would be a problem in an EV (what
> burns in an EV?), but it was. When my controller
> failed earlier this year, the pressure inside the
> controller was enough to make it spit the plastic end
> cap (opposite the terminals). This cap landed on my
> Coroplast belly pan and was hot enough to ignite it.
>
> I didn't notice until a friendly passerby hollered out
> his car window, 'your car is on fire'.
>
> Luckily, I didn't attach the belly pan that well to
> the car body so I was able to jump under the car and
> rip the burning sheets off the car before anything
> else was damaged(adreneline helped).
>
> so, beware.
>
> ~fortunat
>
>
> --- Adrian DeLeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Coroplast (corrugated polypropylene, correx,
> > corroflute, etc.) is
> > available in 2, 4, and 10 millimeter thickness. 3mm
> > and 6mm are less
> > common. A 4'x8' sheet of 4mm runs $15 to $30
> > depending on the
> > supplier/color. Smaller pieces can be much cheaper
> > due to shipping
> > restrictions. You can get it FREE from gas
> > stations/grocery stores (old
> > signs) or after an election - vote for free
> > plastic!.
> >
> > You can use it to block off grilles, as a belly pan,
> > flexible spacer, wire
> > race, etc. It's also used to make R/C airplanes,
> > hamster cages, USPS boxes
> > for sorting mail, as shipping/packaging material,
> > etc.
> >
> > Instead of layering 3 or 4 pieces between batteries,
> > take a larger piece
> > and fold it into a rectangular tube. Use a philips
> > screw driver to "score"
> > a line before folding (very helpful if folding
> > across corrugations). Slots
> > can be cut by removing the plastic between
> > corrugations. If you made a
> > tube that stuck up higher than the surrounding
> > batteries you could mount a
> > fan directly to it - come to think of it, I might
> > need to do this on my
> > battery boxes :)
> >
> > /----\ /--------------\
> > | | | open hole |
> > F | | to below! |
> > A | \--- --------/
> > N | /-------\ FAN
> > | | |Battery|
> > | | | | (top view)
> > | | \-------/
> > | | ===========
> > | | /-------\
> > \ / |Battery|
> > | |
> > \-------/
> > (side view)
> >
> > Corro will warp when it gets warm (in a car in the
> > sun), so store it flat.
> > Cuts with a utility knife, heavy scissors, X-acto
> > knife, etc. Gluing can
> > be tricky - Goop is probably the easiest:
> >
> > Goop/shoe goo - slather it on!
> > Gorilla glue/ProBond/poly glue - rough the surface &
> > mist with water. If
> > possible, poke lots of little holes for the glue to
> > seep through and
> > create small "rivets". Poly glue expands
> > significantly with water.
> > Cyanoacrylate/CA/Super glue - Scrub surface with
> > mineral spirits or
> > "flash" with a propane torch to drive out
> > manufacturing oils - be careful!
> > Results can be spotty depending on age of glue,
> > humidity, etc.
> >
> > Test glue a few pieces first. With poly glue or CA
> > the corro should rip
> > before the pieces come apart!
> >
> > Here are some sources and websites with good
> > tips/tricks for working with
> > Corro.
> >
> > www.spadtothebone.com (see corro hinge tool,
> > supplier list)
> > www.harborsales.net (2,4,6,10mm coroplast)
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Forget forced equalization. That's for floodeds. AGM guys use the Regs.
> And Never drive the Lead over 15 volts if we can help it.
> Never Equalize, The regs do that as they blink.
Rich, I disagree.
"Equalization" is the process of somehow getting different numbers of
amphours into batteries, to compensate for them being at different
states of charge. There are lots of ways to do it; your regulators are
only one.
Ye Olde Brute Force method, used for floodeds, is to just blindly charge
excessively. Like filling buckets with a hose. They all fill up all
right; but the excess spills on the ground and makes a mess. With
batteries, the "mess" is gassing, fizzing, water loss, higher battery
temperature, and somewhat shorter life.
You're right; you don't want to use this method for sealed batteries.
The top is "sealed", so attempting to overfill it causes the pressure
inside to increase. It can blow the safety vents, lose water (which
can't be replaced), make them get hot, and seriously shorten their life.
But, I disagree that you *never* take AGMs up over 15v. Let's assume you
are doing your equalization via extra charging. If one battery is 1
amphour lower than the rest, you have to put one extra amphour into it.
There are lots of ways you can do this.
You could apply a lower voltage for a longer time. My simple zener-lamp
regulators start shunting current at 13.5v, and gradually increase to
0.5 amps at 15v. Let's say the average is 0.25 amps. It takes 4 hours to
get from 13.5v to 15v; so they are providing 0.25a x 4h = 1 amphour of
equalization without ever reaching 15v.
Or, you can charge to a higher voltage but limit the time. 15.5v at 2
amps for 30 minutes is also 1 amphour. In fact, there is evidence that
higher currents do a better job of equalzation. Hawker suggests
equalizing at 2 amps with *no voltage limit*, for example. The key here
is that you need to *know* that there is room for that extra 1 amhour.
You don't blindly charge at 15.5v and 2 amps into an already-full
battery; that will only force it to gas; the internal pressure goes up;
it gets hot, vents, loses water, and is damaged.
The key for AGMs is not to blindly hold some voltage limit; but to
*know* the state of charge, and put in the *right* amount of overcharge
to bring it to full. The actual voltage and current you apply to do this
has rather wide limits.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Florida EAA (www.floridaeaa.org) will be exhibiting EVs at the following
three upcoming EVents:
Deerfield Beach Earth Day Festival
Saturday April 22, 10am to 5pm
Deerfield's main beach area between SE 2nd St. and Hillsboro Blvd.
Deerfield Beach, FL
http://www.deerfield-beach.com/index.asp?NID=394
Florida EAA contact: Shawn Waggoner, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Annual Ft. Pierce EV Rally
Saturday April 29, 11am to 4pm
Advance Auto
4158 Okeechobee Road (Route 70)
Ft. Pierce, Florida
3-hour distance/range challenge road rally will be held in the early morning
hours
http://www.grassrootsev.com/events.htm
Florida EAA contact: Steve Clunn, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Miami Beach Earth Expo
Sunday April 30, noon to 6pm
Lummus Park on the beach between 5th St. and 13th St. on Ocean Drive in
South Beach
Miami Beach, FL
http://www.miamibeachfl.gov/newcity/depts/public_works/env_dev/erm_expo.asp
Florida EAA contact: Charles Whalen, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm startin' to get nervous, Steve. I didn't realize you'd already done
this, run the course, a full 2 laps on a single charge, for 110 miles @ 45
mph. I'm thinkin' you might just kick my ass on 4/29. Wow, I can just see
it now -- "PbA beats NiMH on range!" I'll be limpin' all the way back home
in shame! Too embarassed to tell the guys over on the RAV4 list that I got
my ass kicked by lead! Well, I can see that this is going to be some
serious competition and should be very close. Gonna be fun either way
whoever wins. Hope we might get Cliff in this as well so we can pit PbA vs.
NiMH vs. lithium, all chemistries against each other in one race. Oops,
almost forgot NiCd, but I don't think we've got anyone down here with that.
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: longest range?
I drove my Mazda pu 100 miles to get in the 100 mile on a charge club in
http://www.grassrootsev.com/100club.htm it has 40 golf cart batteries .
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 10:55 AM
Subject: longest range?
What is the longest range everyone has gotten on their ev? If you've
gotten
over 60, definitely let me know.
Thanks, Alan
--
// Quotes from yours truly -------------------------
"You don't forget, you just don't remember."
"Maturity resides in the mind."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lockheed Martin has a facility called Skunkworks in Palmdale
> California. It is where they developed the SR-71 and the Stealth
> Fighter.
Naa... The Skunk Works was the "factory" in Dogpatch where Injun Joe and
Lonesome Polecat brewed up their Kickapoo Joy Juice. (ref. Al Capp's
"Lil' Abner :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel Hacker wrote:
> Or, is there a coating that you can spray/paint/apply
> to the chloroplast to keep it from catching fire???
I think you would be better off using real cardboard, and impregnating
it with a nonflammable resin.
I've been reading up on composites, and ran across a note that plain old
kraft paper based cardboard has about the highest strength-to-cost ratio
of anything available. When impregated with phenolic, polyester, or
epoxy resins, it becomes essentially immune to moisture and almost as
good as fiberglass!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Calvin King wrote:
>when I accelerate, the 'percent of charge' meter drops dramatically
and when I remove my foot from the accelerator it returns to 100%. Is
this what it is suppose to do?
Hi, Calvin. It is working properly. Most "percent charge" meters are
just expanded scale voltmeters. For your 108V system, it will probably
indicate about 94.5 (1.75 volts per cell) to 118.8 (2.2 volts per
cell), which is probably rounded to 95-120 VDC.
Since voltage is proportional to % charge after the vehicle has rested
for a couple hours, this meter is handy to make sure you start off with
a full charge, but the fact they mark them in % charge makes them next
to useless for either purpose while driving.
Since voltage drops under load, it isn't too useful while driving, and
since the scale is expanded, it swings a lot during normal load.
Furthermore, it isn't even accurate for percent charge unless it has
sat for a while (how long it has to sit is a topic under debate here,
and estimates range from 5 minutes to 24 hours).
A meter marked in volts would be better (and will hook right up to the
existing leads), as "fully charged" and "dead" have different values at
different temperatures, and you always want to be able to see where
1.75 volts per cell is, so you don't pull it under that value while
driving.
It sounds like you are pretty much done with the break in (haven't you
been at it for a few weeks now?), and can start pulling more amps
intermittently.
David Brandt
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Death to All Spammers wrote:
I don't have my own charge box - they're all public charging here in
Vacaville, all the same models.
Ah. The public-charging infrastructure entropy problem. Maybe it is not
your Ranger, after all. And these are charge stations you have used in
the past, successfully? Which stations?
I don't see Vacaville on my list of public charge stations:
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/ch-bay-all.htm
Anybody else in your area use those chargers regularly? Otmar?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the ground rules Sake...
Lets assume the brute force method is out of the question.
And you don't want to just force 2 amp into a full battery. The result will
cause venting.
So.. What else do you have?? Voltage? and Amps...These are the only two
tools to read and to vary.
Unless you are also tracking past demand and charge cycles.
So.. You pick a voltage that will fill the battery on time and not vent it.
AGM and specifically Optimas recommend 14.8 volts. Seams to work for most
AGM batteries.
That old Bucket of water concept is very valid. but you want them all full,
no matter if the buckets are slightly different sizes. Full and barley
dribbling over is a Known state.
Locking the peak voltage with any kind of regulator.. is a very good first
step. The second is to back off the main charger If you can't dribble the
extra power fast enough to keep the voltage
below the level you want them at.
Or adding power to the ones that just take a little longer to
dribble...Good idea helps get to that nice all full state faster. Without
having to abuse any single battery with high volts like the Bulk 2amp for
ever stage that some Battery vendors and Charger designers favor. Heck Lee
if these old concepts actually worked like folks say they do...we wouldn't
be making Chargers and BMS improvements now would we?
14.8 is going to "Gas" the internal chemistry.. But not such that venting
will occur. Well to any great degree. I have vented at 14.8 after a 150 amp
cycle.. there are limits...
But to most EVers that are coming over from Flooded PbLa.. You don't want to
push a AGM through the "classic" equalization cycle. We have to do it by
other means.
The other means for AGM is a voltage hold While the amps taper back to less
than 2 amps. You NEVER drive the AGM over 15 if you can help it. Doing so
with a long series string just about guarantees you will vent one of the
batteries. There are clear exceptions to this rule.. But if you do just
what the procedure says, you will get rated cycle life if not a couple times
more that the posted cycle life.
Since the advertised cycles assumes you will have some... "Events".
Knowing the Actual requirements of a single Battery's State of charge...
Well Lee that's just about impossible. You need a LOT of solid lab grade
data, as well as the history of the last charge cycle and depth of
discharge, Age of battery and the number and depth of all cycles. And then
with some math and a Good WAG... you can kinda predict the Watts needed to
solve the equation. Yup you can get close with a good data cruncher and
"Best practice" methods. Been there done that.. by hand many times.
Or you can hold all the regs at blink levels for 30 minutes.. and yer
done...
I am not sure..which one gives a better charge... But.. I really do know
which one is more cost effective....
And which one is easier to implement.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Forget forced equalization. That's for floodeds. AGM guys use the Regs.
> > And Never drive the Lead over 15 volts if we can help it.
> > Never Equalize, The regs do that as they blink.
>
> Rich, I disagree.
>
> "Equalization" is the process of somehow getting different numbers of
> amphours into batteries, to compensate for them being at different
> states of charge. There are lots of ways to do it; your regulators are
> only one.
>
> Ye Olde Brute Force method, used for floodeds, is to just blindly charge
> excessively. Like filling buckets with a hose. They all fill up all
> right; but the excess spills on the ground and makes a mess. With
> batteries, the "mess" is gassing, fizzing, water loss, higher battery
> temperature, and somewhat shorter life.
>
> You're right; you don't want to use this method for sealed batteries.
> The top is "sealed", so attempting to overfill it causes the pressure
> inside to increase. It can blow the safety vents, lose water (which
> can't be replaced), make them get hot, and seriously shorten their life.
>
> But, I disagree that you *never* take AGMs up over 15v. Let's assume you
> are doing your equalization via extra charging. If one battery is 1
> amphour lower than the rest, you have to put one extra amphour into it.
> There are lots of ways you can do this.
>
> You could apply a lower voltage for a longer time. My simple zener-lamp
> regulators start shunting current at 13.5v, and gradually increase to
> 0.5 amps at 15v. Let's say the average is 0.25 amps. It takes 4 hours to
> get from 13.5v to 15v; so they are providing 0.25a x 4h = 1 amphour of
> equalization without ever reaching 15v.
>
> Or, you can charge to a higher voltage but limit the time. 15.5v at 2
> amps for 30 minutes is also 1 amphour. In fact, there is evidence that
> higher currents do a better job of equalzation. Hawker suggests
> equalizing at 2 amps with *no voltage limit*, for example. The key here
> is that you need to *know* that there is room for that extra 1 amhour.
> You don't blindly charge at 15.5v and 2 amps into an already-full
> battery; that will only force it to gas; the internal pressure goes up;
> it gets hot, vents, loses water, and is damaged.
>
> The key for AGMs is not to blindly hold some voltage limit; but to
> *know* the state of charge, and put in the *right* amount of overcharge
> to bring it to full. The actual voltage and current you apply to do this
> has rather wide limits.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, Rich, may I divert this subject a little, something related--
What do you think of using switched-capacitance to equalize large
strings? (A la http://www.smartsparkenergy.com/batteq.htm)
Regards and TIA,
Jim
Lee Hart wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
Forget forced equalization. That's for floodeds. AGM guys use the Regs.
And Never drive the Lead over 15 volts if we can help it.
Never Equalize, The regs do that as they blink.
Rich, I disagree.
"Equalization" is the process of somehow getting different numbers of
amphours into batteries, to compensate for them being at different
states of charge. There are lots of ways to do it; your regulators are
only one.
Ye Olde Brute Force method, used for floodeds, is to just blindly charge
excessively. Like filling buckets with a hose. They all fill up all
right; but the excess spills on the ground and makes a mess. With
batteries, the "mess" is gassing, fizzing, water loss, higher battery
temperature, and somewhat shorter life.
You're right; you don't want to use this method for sealed batteries.
The top is "sealed", so attempting to overfill it causes the pressure
inside to increase. It can blow the safety vents, lose water (which
can't be replaced), make them get hot, and seriously shorten their life.
But, I disagree that you *never* take AGMs up over 15v. Let's assume you
are doing your equalization via extra charging. If one battery is 1
amphour lower than the rest, you have to put one extra amphour into it.
There are lots of ways you can do this.
You could apply a lower voltage for a longer time. My simple zener-lamp
regulators start shunting current at 13.5v, and gradually increase to
0.5 amps at 15v. Let's say the average is 0.25 amps. It takes 4 hours to
get from 13.5v to 15v; so they are providing 0.25a x 4h = 1 amphour of
equalization without ever reaching 15v.
Or, you can charge to a higher voltage but limit the time. 15.5v at 2
amps for 30 minutes is also 1 amphour. In fact, there is evidence that
higher currents do a better job of equalzation. Hawker suggests
equalizing at 2 amps with *no voltage limit*, for example. The key here
is that you need to *know* that there is room for that extra 1 amhour.
You don't blindly charge at 15.5v and 2 amps into an already-full
battery; that will only force it to gas; the internal pressure goes up;
it gets hot, vents, loses water, and is damaged.
The key for AGMs is not to blindly hold some voltage limit; but to
*know* the state of charge, and put in the *right* amount of overcharge
to bring it to full. The actual voltage and current you apply to do this
has rather wide limits.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Addendum to the EVent info below: Just got word from Vectrix
(www.vectrixusa.com) that they are planning to bring two of their electric
motorcycles to the Miami Beach Earth Expo on Sunday April 30 and will be
giving rides up and down Ocean Drive.
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: Upcoming EVents in Florida
The Florida EAA (www.floridaeaa.org) will be exhibiting EVs at the
following three upcoming EVents:
Deerfield Beach Earth Day Festival
Saturday April 22, 10am to 5pm
Deerfield's main beach area between SE 2nd St. and Hillsboro Blvd.
Deerfield Beach, FL
http://www.deerfield-beach.com/index.asp?NID=394
Florida EAA contact: Shawn Waggoner, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Annual Ft. Pierce EV Rally
Saturday April 29, 11am to 4pm
Advance Auto
4158 Okeechobee Road (Route 70)
Ft. Pierce, Florida
3-hour distance/range challenge road rally will be held in the early
morning hours
http://www.grassrootsev.com/events.htm
Florida EAA contact: Steve Clunn, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Miami Beach Earth Expo
Sunday April 30, noon to 6pm
Lummus Park on the beach between 5th St. and 13th St. on Ocean Drive in
South Beach
Miami Beach, FL
http://www.miamibeachfl.gov/newcity/depts/public_works/env_dev/erm_expo.asp
Florida EAA contact: Charles Whalen, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Ah. The public-charging infrastructure entropy problem. Maybe it is not
> your Ranger, after all. And these are charge stations you have used in
> the past, successfully? Which stations?
No, you *were* right - it WAS my truck! Tried it out again, this time
popped the hood and with Avcon plugged in, started pulling and pushing
every connector and line to and from the input box, and *shazaam* it
clicked on the contactors!
> I don't see Vacaville on my list of public charge stations:
> http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/ch-bay-all.htm
>
> Anybody else in your area use those chargers regularly? Otmar?
>
It's considered Sacto area:
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/ch-sac-all.htm
Otmar is on Oregon (California's Canada), and I don't know if anyone
on the list lives in my town -- too bad, because I have a couple EV
projects in need of inertia from an outside force!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The one dollar a piece was from a couple of years ago. At 8 amps & a buck
each they have to be one of the best battery bargains. I've been
threatening to do a scooter with them. LR>..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Would it be hard to put a pack together using 18650's like AC Propulsion
did. Seems 6800 batteries putting out 8 amps each is a lot of power.
Seems
based on the 8 amp output you might be able to do a very light pack. At
a
buck a pop It'd be reasonable. 300 cells would put out 2400 amps.
If you had a pack of 6800 batteries:
What would you use for a charger?
What would you use for a BMS?
680lbs for 6800 of these 18650's..?
Where do you find them at for ~$1 each?
http://www.megabatteries.com/items.asp?cat_id=51
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
YOu might have to look for the older versions of the battery to get the low
price. 20 amps changes things a lot. One amp hour per battery is nuts.
LR>......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
Sony has a Lithium UR18650S that they say can output 20 Amps
continuously! It's only a little over 1 Ah per battery. In small
quantities the 18650 batteries seem to cost around $7.50 each, too
bad it's not closer to $1.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Would it be hard to put a pack together using 18650's like AC
Propulsion
did. Seems 6800 batteries putting out 8 amps each is a lot of
power. Seems
based on the 8 amp output you might be able to do a very light
pack. At a
buck a pop It'd be reasonable. 300 cells would put out 2400 amps.
Just
depends on the voltage you need. Might be call for a throwaway
pack.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems if it was engineered properly a light pack of 18650's would be one way
to get your Current Dragster into the 6's. Now that the little battery's
are an amp hour each the math is very easy. Also the weight reduction
couldn't hurt. For me 80 of these little dEVils would take my scooter a long
way. All I need is 24volts and 1000 watts. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
In a message dated 4/17/06 2:22:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
Date: 4/17/06 2:22:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rich Rudman)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Just what makes you think you are so Special Dennis???
The rest of us have to make our own BMS...
Why not you???
Those little modular chargers are in effect a prettey Good BMS. So you
already have what you need for Lead.
The Lion stuff needs a BMS or a LOT of little chargers.. Heck a stack of
those Z28 Lions and 6 chargers.. and well Looky here..
You too can play with Lions...
That should be simple enough for you.
It might take you more than 15 minutes to Bilk charge....I expect..
Madman
\----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
. Dennis Berube >>
> ***To much work and money for me to just rebreak my own record.At this
point
> I should not be paying for batteries or the bms. D.Berube >>
**Rich I am not special and I have my own bulk and bms for lead which I
paid
for.The CE has been very sucessful both on the track and on the trade show
circuit and I think it still has the all out record,so if a litho co.wants
me to
rebreak the old record they can supply the goods.Now if you or someone
else
takes that measly 8 second record I will spend my own money again to
rebreak the
record... Dennis
--- End Message ---
