EV Digest 5401
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fw: bmw in Vegas. Need storage help & or transport
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: White Zombie Update...360 Volts...More HP!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Father Time Rolls On
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVs in Australia?
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: EVs in Australia?
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) And so it begins...
by "John F. Norton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EVs in Australia?
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Earth Day Adventures with Batteries
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Precharge alternatives
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Who killed the Electric car?, was: Father Time Rolls On
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: EVs in Australia?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Thin wires as fuses? (was: Battery connections assistance sought)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by "John F. Norton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Precharge alternatives
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Thin wires as fuses? (was: Battery connections assistance sought)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Targa car, was: Re: longest range?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) I'm confused...
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: EVs in Australia?
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Precharge alternatives
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Potbox and contractor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Going to the Tour de Sol? Save $2!
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: And so it begins...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Some problems to solve
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> > Hi,
> > I won the supposed electric BMW on ebay. However the fellow wants
it moved
> > immediately and I can't do it. Do you know anyone who might want
the car
> > and can get it next weekend?
> > best regards,
> > Dale
> > Pt.Arena,Ca.
> >
>
Not the easiest of projects to clean up, let alone get running!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: White Zombie Update...360 Volts...More HP!
> At 11:04 AM 23/04/06 -0700, John Wayland wrote:
> >Hello to All,
> >
> ><snip> I told Jay 'no' to going racing. <snip> Here's the deal. We've
made
> >a commitment to show up at the High Voltage Nationals in Joliet,
Illinois,
> >just three weeks from now,<snip>
> and
> >Each weekend has been packed with EV building activity, <snip> new pack
of
> >Aerobatteries
> and
> >Other changes to the car include the high rpm field weakening circuit
<snip>
> >Will Jim's mighty Siamese 8 hold up to this? Will the Hawker
Aerobatteries
> >stay together?
>
> G'day John (and all)
>
> Aargh, no news on how you are getting on with making reverse happen?!!
>
Hi James an' EVerybody;
If I get there on time I can be part of the " Reverse" gear, like at PDX
and Woodburn.<g>!
6'5" 280 lbs,weight on drivers, as we say on the RR, reverse "Traction
Motor"
Seeya there
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After a week, Im finally recuperating from my exhilarating experience in
Oregon.
I left home on Wednesday, April12, for the seven hour drive to Redmond, Oregon.
There I met up with John Wayland and Jim Husted at one of Johns favourite
Chinese restaurants just as they were finishing their meal. John then had to
head home to Portland. I accompanied Jim to his place, where we stayed up way
too late discussing the wonders of electricity and motors.
The next morning we proceeded to Jims motor shop and began putting together
three race motors out of the truckload of junk that I had brought with me and
a few additional pieces Jim had laying around. After two thirteen-hour days,
we had three beautiful rebuilt Franken-style motors for my dragbike,
Frankendragon. During this two-day period, Jim also completed Marcos motor
for Baby Blue, which I was able to deliver in Portland on my return trip.
The whole process had been fascinating, watching a real craftsman ply his
trade. Its not often one sees someone as gifted in his craft as Jim is in
motor-building. I attempted to learn as much as I could while I was there, but
the old dog syndrome sometimes kicks in.
We had weather reports of heavy snow in the passes, but I avoided it by
traveling home up Hwy 97 through the desert to The Dalles, Oregon, and then
down Hwy 84 to Portland. There I met up with Marco, John, and Rich Rudman, and
handed off Marcos motor. Continuing homeward in bad weather conditions, I
arrived at home finally about 7:30 pm on Saturday.
I was pleased and fortunate to have the opportunity to spend most of the next
Thursday with Jerry Asher. Jerry is from EAA (Electric Vehicle Association of
American). He passed through the Seattle area en route to a conversion project
in California converting Ryan Fulchers Prius into a plug-in hybrid.
Yesterday, Earth Day, I displayed my drag bike, Frankendragon, and my electric
lazy-boy racing recliner chair at Seward Park in Seattle alongside several
other alternative fuel vehicles. It didnt rain.
Now back to the grindstone: Finishing reading the remaining hundred or more
emails that piled up during my busy past several weeks. Next on my plate will
be taking Frankendragon down to John Waylands place to be hauled back to
Illinois for a race there. Ill haul myself there later via air.
- Father Time
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering if there are any members of the list that have done
conversion in Australia, specifically around the Melbourne area? I plan on
starting a conversion as soon I have sold my petrol powered car and I was
wondering if there are any fellow EV'ers that could answer Australian
related questions such as where to source parts such as motors and batteries
or even companies to contact to get some things completed?
Cheers,
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
> I was wondering if there are any members of the list that have done
> conversion in Australia, specifically around the Melbourne
> area?
I'm in Sydney, and there are a few Aussies on the list, at least one of whom is
in Melbourne and a member of the local AEVA branch (http://www.aeva.asn.au/).
So just ask away :-)
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have made the first commitment here to EVdom - I have purchased the
donor vehicle. I picked up a very decent Suzuki Samurai wicked
cheap. It isn't the most aerodynamic thing in the world, but it is
light - 2000 lb curb weight, with a truck frame that should hold up
well to the weight of batteries.
Now to just get the rest of it figured out.
A hopefully not-so nutty battery question:
If first pack = dead pack, would these be viable:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006042322194411&item=11-3054&catname=electric
6v 180 ah agm's that are system takeouts from telecom - $30 ea. The
new version of these are $300 batteries. Specs look pretty
good. Likely cycle life is down, but if they are gonna get blowed up
anyway....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
Name is Robert. I had just finished convertinf my car. I am in Sydney, but
the source of parts, mostly is from US except Curtis controllers, batteries
and also the motor.
Cheers
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: EVs in Australia?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:41 +1000
I was wondering if there are any members of the list that have done
conversion in Australia, specifically around the Melbourne area? I plan on
starting a conversion as soon I have sold my petrol powered car and I was
wondering if there are any fellow EV'ers that could answer Australian
related questions such as where to source parts such as motors and
batteries
or even companies to contact to get some things completed?
Cheers,
Dave
_________________________________________________________________
New year, new job there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and all,
The cells are never short-circuited. However, under certain conditions
the cells "pretend" to be short-circuited - they look that way to the
pack. Let me lay it out a little easier. On my circuit boards, there
are two dual-terminal connectors, one on each side (one circuit board
per 3.7V cell [group]). The negative of both terminals is permanently
connected, but the positive of the cell connector goes to the gate
driver voltage supply and the positive of the pack connector goes to its
output. The pack connector's positive also runs in series to the next
cell's negative wire. The cells "seem" to be shorted when they're
connected by the pack terminals in a 7.4V configuration, but in reality
they're supplying 0.75mA to the logic circuitry which is still
monitoring their voltage - be it too high or too low.
Question for everyone/anyone: Has that ever been done before?
Thanks. Yes, it is tons of work. I think it's around 14-ounce (about
16 mils thick). The copper is soldered onto a double-sided 1-ounce
board in the form of one 26-gauge sheet by a kitchen oven. It takes
away the MOSFETs' heat very well, but isn't too practical to
mass-produce. I may get to show the car to one of the vice-presidents
of Texas Instruments, who got me two jobs recently.
- Arthur
> Your testing of these cells is great info for all of us.
>
> Does your gate driver BMS just pulse a near short circuit across the
> cells to voltage limit them? Just trying to understand what you did.
>
> Nice job on the Renault. Tons of work. What thickness of copper did
> you use on yourboards?
>
> Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Good luck winding a few hundred microHenries with 2/0 cable.
Serious, though - you can of course have the inductor instead
of the resistor, but the principle does not chance that you
will need a contactor to SHORT the path between battery and
controller, taking the inductor out of the path. Just to
avoid that the inductor needs to take those hundreds of Amps.
Normally you have a small (low amp; high volts) contactor
that closes the pre-charge resistor into the loop, then the
large (high amp) contactor that shorts the resistor and small
contactor path, connecting the controller directly to the
batteries.
If you take a low resistance value (like 10 Ohms) as precharge
resistor, then your charge time will be around 10 ms, no delay
that you can notice.
One way to wire your circuit is that the turning key provides
you with the control for the precharge:
- turning from OFF to ON closes the precharge contactor
- turning from ON to START closes the main contactor,
which is held when the key turns back to ON.
- turning from ON to OFF will drop the main and
precharge contactors
This wiring with the short pre-charge time constant will give
you instantaneous power when the key is turned and accelarator
pressed. You will need a beefy pre-charge resistor though, but
not for the full power - as long as it can withstand the 10 ms
burst then it's OK.
10 Ohm in a 300V system = 30A => 9kW but since it only exists
for a few ms you probably can get away with a few hundred Watt
resistor(s).
In addition to this (for DC systems), you may key the main
contactor also with the potbox microswitch to drop out
every time the accelerator is released.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 1:08 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Precharge alternatives
I'm unhappy with the current practice and techniques of precharging
the controller caps. It seems that one has only a couple of choices,
neither good nor convenient. One is to leave the controller charged
all the time which wastes energy and will drain the pack if left
sitting for awhile or have a pre-charge circuit and put up with the
delay while it functions. (No, I'm not interested in hearing that you
don't find the delay annoying. I do and I started this thread!)
I've been pondering this today. The goal really isn't to fully charge
the caps. The goal is to limit the inrush to something that is safe
for the contactor, safe for the caps and which will not generate
enough ring voltage to hurt the semiconductors. That means that some
inrush is OK.
One of the standard industrial methods of limiting inrush or fault
current is a high current air core inductor in series with the load.
The resistance and inductance are low enough that it has no effect on
normal operations. The inductance is high enough, however, to limit
inrush or fault current to a design value.
I'm thinking about (and probably will) applying that to my EV. This
will involve adding a suitable inductor in series with one of the pack
to controller leads. There will then be no precharge resistor and the
contactor will close in on a discharged controller. The inductor will
limit the inrush to a safe value. No delays and no quiescent energy
consumption.
I'm just thinking out loud here before I go out tomorrow and do some
testing. Has anyone else used this approach and if so, any gotchas?
One potential gotcha I can think of has to do with ripple current back
to the battery from the PCM action. For a controller with little or
no input filtering, inductance in the battery lead could result in
unstable operation or loss of power. At this point I'm assuming that
any controller with enough input capacity to need worry about inrush
has enough to limit or eliminate input ripple. True? False?
Physical size won't be a problem since it'll only take a few (hundred)
microhenerys to limit the inrush to a few hundred amps.
Any idea how much input capacitance in, say, an Alltrax 7845? My
digital capacitance meter generated "unusual" results, probably
because of all the other stuff connected to the input. I'll get my
LCR bridge out tomorrow but just in case someone already knows, saving
me the work, I thought I'd ask.
Discussion?
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Father Time wrote:
>I was pleased and fortunate to have the opportunity to spend
>most of the next Thursday with Jerry Asher. Jerry is from EAA
>(Electric Vehicle Association of American). He passed through
>the Seattle area en route to a conversion project in California
>- converting Ryan Fulcher's Prius into a plug-in hybrid.
Yesterday night I met Jerry after the second showing of
"Who killed the Electric car?" at the San Francisco film festival.
Small world. He invited me over to San Mateo and I wanted to go
to show another real EV, but I could not squeeze it into my busy
schedule today, unfortunately.
Great to see so many EV'ers and to hear Chris Paine explain why
he made the movie, what a tough three years he had to get it
together and to see it nearly finished now. Interesting to be
able to meet several of the people featured in the movie, for
example Chelsea who was also in the audience and later up in
the front with Chris taking questions after the movie.
Release should be in June and the movie should be available on
DVD shortly thereafter.
BTW - Sony has bought the rights of the movie.
I think that is great news.
Sure wish it shows in a theatre near us again, so I can invite
more people to go see it.
To me the greatest find in this movie was that it finally
cleared up my question why the automakers are so keen on
enforcing the thought that "nobody wants an EV".
I am not going to say any more or I give the clue away,
don't want to spoil your theater experience ;-)
I can now rest assured that there indeed are many people
who want an EV, many people that soon wil have an EV in
one form or another and that the car makers who still do
not want you to believe that truth and continue to tell
the lie will one day have to report why they built this
market cartel to drive the cost of car maintenance and
the oil price (and their profits) up to astronomical levels
but as always the truth comes out sooner or later and
customers will follow better alternatives.
They are here today, they only need to be marketed.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:08 PM
To: ev
Subject: Father Time Rolls On
After a week, I'm finally recuperating from my exhilarating experience in
Oregon.
I left home on Wednesday, April12, for the seven hour drive to Redmond,
Oregon. There I met up with John Wayland and Jim Husted at one of John's
favourite Chinese restaurants just as they were finishing their meal. John
then had to head home to Portland. I accompanied Jim to his place, where we
stayed up way too late discussing the wonders of electricity and motors.
The next morning we proceeded to Jim's motor shop and began putting together
three race motors out of the truckload of junk that I had brought with me
and a few additional pieces Jim had laying around. After two thirteen-hour
days, we had three beautiful rebuilt Franken-style motors for my dragbike,
Frankendragon. During this two-day period, Jim also completed Marco's motor
for Baby Blue, which I was able to deliver in Portland on my return trip.
The whole process had been fascinating, watching a real craftsman ply his
trade. It's not often one sees someone as gifted in his craft as Jim is in
motor-building. I attempted to learn as much as I could while I was there,
but the old dog syndrome sometimes kicks in.
We had weather reports of heavy snow in the passes, but I avoided it by
traveling home up Hwy 97 through the desert to The Dalles, Oregon, and then
down Hwy 84 to Portland. There I met up with Marco, John, and Rich Rudman,
and handed off Marco's motor. Continuing homeward in bad weather
conditions, I arrived at home finally about 7:30 pm on Saturday.
I was pleased and fortunate to have the opportunity to spend most of the
next Thursday with Jerry Asher. Jerry is from EAA (Electric Vehicle
Association of American). He passed through the Seattle area en route to a
conversion project in California - converting Ryan Fulcher's Prius into a
plug-in hybrid.
Yesterday, Earth Day, I displayed my drag bike, Frankendragon, and my
electric lazy-boy racing recliner chair at Seward Park in Seattle alongside
several other alternative fuel vehicles. It didn't rain.
Now back to the grindstone: Finishing reading the remaining hundred or more
emails that piled up during my busy past several weeks. Next on my plate
will be taking Frankendragon down to John Wayland's place to be hauled back
to Illinois for a race there. I'll haul myself there later via air.
- Father Time
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
Yes there are a few Aussies on the list.
Like Claudio and Robert, I'm in Sydney.
As the others have said, most of the EV stuff comes from overseas.
In my car, most of the big stuff (EV specific, high voltage) came from
www.evparts.com (It takes about a week to deliver)
Most of the small stuff (generic, low voltage) came from Jaycar.
It is possible to get some EV stuff in Australia - Curtis controllers,
Woods chargers, EV suitable batteries, etc - but not much.
Get in contact with AEVA - www.aeva.asn.au - I believe that the
Melbourne chapter is quite large.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Ankers
> Sent: Monday, 24 April 2006 4:04 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EVs in Australia?
>
>
>
> I was wondering if there are any members of the list that have done
> conversion in Australia, specifically around the Melbourne
> area? I plan on
> starting a conversion as soon I have sold my petrol powered
> car and I was
> wondering if there are any fellow EV'ers that could answer Australian
> related questions such as where to source parts such as
> motors and batteries
> or even companies to contact to get some things completed?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How about using a fuse wire.
This is of interest.
You can get the fuse wire in No. AWG 18 to No. AWG 8 at a auto parts store.
Does it go by names other then "fuse wire?" Searching online I didn't see any.
I change all these type of fuse wire with industrial fuse holders with blown
fuse indicators which are track mounted in rolls of terminal blocks.
Not sure what you mean.
You only need to install about a 4 to 6 inch length of this fuse wire which
would connect right at the battery.
From positive terminal, negative terminal, both, or it doesn't matter?
Regards,
Mark Freidberg
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:06 PM 4/21/2006, you wrote:
Anyhoo...The Probe is a pretty heavy vehicle weighing in at just
under 2700 lbs (add 800+ and we're easily pushing 3500#). What's it
gonna take to get this beast moving? I had hoped to convert a GEO
Metro or Ford Festivia (or something of similar ilk) going up to 96,
maybe 120 v (DC), regen. Basically a small 40 to 50 mile
around-towner. However, the offer of the "free" donor may be an
offer too good to turn down. The only problem with the Probe of
which I'm aware is that it needs a tranny...Surely a 4 or 5 speed
manual can't be THAT prohibitively expensive...Or can it?
More than you ever wanted to know about converting a Ford Probe:
http://www.evconvert.com/eve/
Probably the most comprehensive documentation of a conversion I have
seen on the Net.
And, of course, a list member.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seeking one suitable for 12 volt battery monitoring. Anyone have a link to the
tiniest?
Mark
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In switch mode power supplies they attack this with Negative temperature
coef resistors. Obviously these are low amperage circuits so switching
is still needed, but if you are talking about a controller I could see
NTC on the precharge and main contactor drive when precharge is up. I
would be surprised if this is not done already.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: Thin wires as fuses? (was: Battery connections assistance
sought)
> Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> How about using a fuse wire.
> This is of interest.
>
> You can get the fuse wire in No. AWG 18 to No. AWG 8 at a auto parts
> store.
> Does it go by names other then "fuse wire?" Searching online I didn't
> see any.
I just went to the shop and I had one package of fuse wire that was still in
its original package. Its reads as a FUSIBLE LINK WIRE. There is 7 feet of
16 AWG Black, with a part no. 202H by JT&T Product Corp.
If you just go into a auto parts store and ask for fuse wire, many of them
will know what you mean, if it's a clerk that been there for over 50 years
at a parts store like the one down the street from me. Roland
>
> I change all these type of fuse wire with industrial fuse holders with
> blown fuse indicators which are track mounted in rolls of terminal blocks.
> Not sure what you mean.
>
> You only need to install about a 4 to 6 inch length of this fuse wire
> which would connect right at the battery.
> From positive terminal, negative terminal, both, or it doesn't matter?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Freidberg
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James,
<ProEV have got around 120 miles on 70Ah I believe,>
We did not actually run the car that far but that is about what we should
have gotten. That was steady highway driving at around 60 mph (96 kph). We
used a
little less than 225 watts per mile.
However, on the track, we use around 1,000 watts per mile (1,200 without
Regen) or about 4 times steady state driving. Our average track speed is
around 75 Mph (120 kph). Top speed 120 mph (193 kph), 40 mph (64 kph) in the
chicane. Hard acceleration, hard braking and high top speed use a lot of
power.
<> I had an .... intriguing conversation with someone yesterday. It's the
time
of year for the Targa Tasmania road-rally again (annual event)
http://www.targa.org.au/ , a 2000km (1250 mile) or so road race, over 5
days, each day being 200 to 550kms (125 to 350 miles).
Looking at the web site, it is a 1,307 mile (2,103 km) distance but much of
it is transition stages between full speed 'Special Stages'. The transitions
legs should be limited to legal speed limits and the Imp would probably use
around 225 watts per mile there.
Each day is broken up into a number of stages. The longest Special stage is
24 miles (38 kilometers). These are tarmac special stages, so they should be
about the same watts per mile as the race track. So for all but about two
special stages, the Electric Imp as set up now could run full power if we
got a full charge before the stage.
The longest day is 321 miles (516 kilometers) of which 90 (145 kilometers)
are special stages. So (90 * 1,000) + (231 * 225) = 141,975 Watts-hours
needed or about 7 full charges (22 kWh pack). With dump charging and
proper battery cooling, I would guess 2C recharges would not be too
difficult. Start with a full charge, Full charge during the lunch stop. End
up empty. That still means 2.5 hours of recharging along the way. Hard to be
competitive!
So the race would require either a bigger battery pack, or a more efficient
car (a body shape with less drag would be a place to start), faster
recharging (The RC boys are recharging their small Kokam packs at 5C). Or
some combination.
Let's look at using 200 amp-hr Kokams. Pack weight would be 1,020 lbs vs.
378 lbs so the car is 642 lbs heavier. But the pack would have 65 kWh
aboard.
Assuming that the car is lightened or improves efficiency to match the
Electric Imp. That means a little over 2 full charges (142 kWh / 65 kWh).
Start full, charge at lunch. The car would need a small boost charge some
time during the day.
This way would probably work. The organizers allow refueling during the
transition stages at approved gas stations, so it would not be too hard to
get a quick boost stop along one of the transition stages and a full
recharge during the lunch stop.
<Or battery swap for a
charged pack carried in a support vehicle (since this would be a custom
chassis, the battery swapping system can be designed in).
To make a car that can carry 600 more pounds of batteries than the Imp and
still be as efficient racing will require a pure race car designed to carry
batteries. Then it might indeed make more sense to swap out packs. Use 100
amp-hr cells would assure the car of being able to run each special stage at
full power but make the car 500 lbs lighter.
So no really new technology necessary. Race chassis (preferable AWD for max
regen) designed for battery swaps. Three Kokam 100 amp-hr 325 volt nominal
packs (with integrated BMS). A truck to carry the two spare packs. The truck
either needs to have a generator and charger aboard or the course has to be
scouted and packs propositioned, then charged and repositioned during the
day.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry if this has been brought up many times, I expect it has. I'll make
it short and simple:
It relates to AC vs DC. I'm just starting to look in to converting a car,
I'm thinking about something like a Honda Civic no older than 1992 and no
newer than 1998. The car needs:
1. Max range of 25 miles (40km) but without stressing the batteries to much.
2. Needs to be able to keep with traffic on the freeway - 110km/h (65mph)
3. Needs to get to 100kmh (60mph) as fast as possible. < 6 sec 0 to 60 time
but 5 seconds would be nice.
4. Using AGL cells. I guess a higher voltage setup but with smaller
batteries?
Is this practical?
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--- Begin Message ---
Dear Dave
You can visit & see my converted Daihatsu Charade. It is my regular wheels
for trips of up to 50ks return & 100ks for a charge en route when available.
Once you have electric traction you are hooked. There is no comparison.
Fellow Evers in Australia are no doubt feeling smug with petrol heading up
($1.35 per litre) with no limit apparent.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Monday, 24 April 2006 4:04 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EVs in Australia?
I was wondering if there are any members of the list that have done
conversion in Australia, specifically around the Melbourne area? I plan on
starting a conversion as soon I have sold my petrol powered car and I was
wondering if there are any fellow EV'ers that could answer Australian
related questions such as where to source parts such as motors and batteries
or even companies to contact to get some things completed?
Cheers,
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garret Maki wrote:
> The Alltrax manual shows the pre-charge resistor unswitched and this
> is what I have done.
> "...One is to leave the controller charged all the time which wastes
> energy and will drain the pack if left sitting for awhile..."
> Is this true? I haven't seen any accumulation on my emeter.
> I thought once the caps were charged they stopped draining from
> the battery.
Most controllers get power to run their internal logic from the high
voltage pack. This current is low (10-50ma) but will indeed run down the
pack if the vehicle sits uncharged for many weeks.
The E-meter stops registering current if it is below some threshold
(around 0.1 amp, if I recall correctly). So if your controller draws
less than this, the E-meter will ignore it.
The only way to know if your Alltrax is drawing current from the pack is
to actually measure it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stefan Peters wrote:
> Why not put a safety contactor that pulls out on each dead throttle
> event between the controller and motor? It wouldn't (shouldn't) be
> breaking any current... so not much wear and tear. Would this be
> bad for the controller or contactor?
Contactors are rated for *millions* of on/off cycles at light load; so
you aren't going to wear them out from switching every time you release
the throttle.
But, I think some people have the *impression* that this is bad for the
contactor. Also, some just don't like the click/clunk noise.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:47 AM 4/22/2006, you wrote:
2700 is not that bad for a modern car. You can reduce the weight quite a
bit by having all (or most) of the sound deadening insulation removed.
You will also loose a bunch with the removal of the engine, gas tank,
radiator, etc.
Potentitally you could get it down under 2000 lbs before adding the EV
components.
(THUD; Self-inflicted dope slap)...
Of course...I completely forgot the weight of the ICE components...
Large thanks for the reminder...
The Probe is beginning to look less and less a proper
candidate...Time will tell...I need to do some measuring, etc to see
about fitting 20 batteries (I'm leaning towards Trojan 105's or 125's
as they initially appear to be the most cost effective in today's market)...
Wayne
[SNIP]
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, Apr 23, 2006 at 10:55:42PM -0400, David Roden wrote:
> On 23 Apr 2006 at 15:43, M Bianchi wrote:
>
> > Three plug-in
> > hybrids, four hydrogen vehicles, two advanced battery electric vehicles, two
> > modified Honda Insights, and a team from India are just some of the
> > highlights!
>
> Michael,
> What kind of fuel does a "Team from India" run on?
> And is it a true zero-emission vehicle?
> ;-)
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
From the Tour de Sol Entrants page
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/2006Entrants.php
Pledge, #11
DCE Hybrid Car Team
Delhi College, New Delhi, India
The car has been designed to meet the world's need for clean vehicles and suit
the Indian lifestyle and driving conditions. The drive train has been
specially configured to give maximum efficiency and economy. The team
comprises seven mechanical engineering students from Delhi College of
Engineering, the premier engineering institute in India.
That is not everything. Look at the Entrants page. But the EVDL will want to
know ...
In the Battery Electric and Solar Electric categories ...
PROTOTYPE BATTERY ELECTRIC VEHICLES
Lorax, #12
Methacton Electric Car Club
Methacton High School, Norristown, PA
The Lorax is named after Dr. Suess's character whose mission was to educate
people about the environment. The Methacton Electric Car Club educates the
public about alternative energy sources one person at a time at our school,
during field trips to nearby schools and at summer camps.
Phantom Sol, #16
UM Solar Vehicle Team
University of Maine, Orono, Maine
The Phantom Sol was created in 2001 to dispel the myths that electric vehicles
are impractical, weak, expensive and not much fun to drive. Originally a GMC
S15 pickup, this car has been drastically re-engineered to produce an
economical and powerful vehicle with exceptional performance and sleek
appearance.
The Olympian, #17
Burlington County Electechs
Burlington County Schools, NJ
The Electechs are students of Burlington County Institute of Technology and
Burlington County Community College. The Olympian has been greatly modified
with a revolutionary compound battery that offers an exceptional combination of
power, range and affordability.
Revolution Ride, #21
North Haven Community School,
North Haven, ME
Since 2002, when students from Maine's smallest public high school built their
Vanagon Syncro electric vehicle and put it on the road, the van has been an
indispensable daily driver and teaching tool for the school. The 4wd,
7-passenger van is charged by a 5.2kw photovoltaic array installed on the
school and tied into the electric grid.
EVermont's ECHO-EV, # 22
Agency of Natural Resources, Waterbury, VT
This Toyota ECHO conversion was recently designed and built by EVermont. It
has a Solectria drive system and a ZEBRA nickel sodium chloride battery for a
driving range of 100 miles between rechargings. EVermont also hopes to bring
their soon to be delivered Toyota Prius that is being converted to run on
hydrogen.
PROTOTYPE SOLAR-ASSISTED ELECTRIC VEHICLES
Sunpacer, #18
Jeff Ostroski
Cato-Meridian HS Technology Club, Cato, NY
Since 1992, the Sunpacer has participated in the Tour de Sol every year,
capturing first place in the One-person Solar category 11 times. This student-
engineering project aims to improve vehicle efficiency each year. It presently
has a range of 80 miles, to speed of 60 mph, and a demonstrated efficiency of
over 130 mpg.
Woodstock, #19
St. Mark's EV Club
St. Mark's School, Southborough, MA
Woodstock is a true Zero Emission Vehicle. The yellow Ford Ranger 4 X 4
was converted to run on battery power by St. Mark's School students Its
batteries recharge overnight with 100% renewable electricity from the grid.
Woodstock also gathers "free" energy from the sun via the 300 watt Evergreen
Solar panels over the cargo bed.
Keystone, #20
Penn Solar Racing
Pennsylvania State, Philadelphia, PA
Penn Solar Racing is comprised of students from engineering, business and the
liberal arts. We utilize our classroom education in a real world setting to
engineer a fully functional solar car as well as manage resources, advertise
and obtain sponsorship. The team is committed to leadership, teamwork, and
educating the community about alternative energy.
Zodiac, #7
West Irondequoit Solar Car Team
West Irondequoit High School, Rochester, NY
Zodiac is back for another race. The team is made up of 14 students, 3
advisors, and 3 community volunteers from West Irondequoit High School in
Rochester, NY. The team is also working on a scratch built electric mini
cooper that will be ready to race in 2007. Updates on our progress can be found
at www.ihstechteam.com.
AND !!!!
In the Monte Carlo Rally
#37, Maya-100
Electrovaya, Mississauga, Canada
Electrovaya has developed a lithium-polymer battery with the world's highest
energy density of any rechargeable battery. Well established as a battery
supplier to the computer and IT industry, Electrovaya is entering the electric
vehicle market with a joint venture in Norway with SmartCar conversions.
Maya-100 is the company's test-bed for their battery use in an electric
vehicle. www.Electrovaya.com
From
http://www.Electrovaya.com/innovation/zev_tech.html
Introducing The Maya - 100
Electrovaya's Breakthrough Zero-Emission Transportation
. Powered by the award-winning lithium ion SuperPolymer? battery
. Up to 230 mile / 360 km range
. Lightweight, with excellent handling and acceleration
. Proprietary lithium battery,-five times the energy density of lead acid
batteries at less than one-third of the weight.
. Unique battery design allows for hill climbing, and cold weather operation.
. Top speed (regulated) of 140 kph / 80 mph
. The pure battery ZEV features very low maintenance costs
Absolutely Zero-Emission ...
Typical automotive exhaust pollutants include: unburned hydrocarbons
(potential carcinogens), nitrogen oxides (contribute to acid rain), carbon
monoxide (deadly gas), and carbon dioxide (greenhouse gas). In contrast to
hybrid EVs (which still require gasoline) and fuel cell EVs, the MAYA-100 is a
true zero-emission vehicle with over 90% efficiency in use of electrical
power.
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems a Tour de Sol Sponsor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"John F. Norton" wrote:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006042322194411&item=11-3054&catname=electric
>
> 6v 180 ah agm's that are system takeouts from telecom - $30 ea.
The price is right, but remember that shipping will DOUBLE it.
The other caveat is that used and surplus batteries are always a risk.
You don't know their condition, and the seller is unlikely to be honest
about it.
But, if you're close enough to pick them up, and they'll let you take a
battery tester, they could be a great deal.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok Lee...
I am not going to give a complete reply.. here I have a hungry EV and a
stack of MK3 Regs to errr...modify for today, and I have been sick on my
back for two days...
The Regs alone are not the complete answer, nor is a Highly flexable Data
collection system, the the MK3 Reg string would allow.
The Mk3s just let you see stuff and do something about it.
What makes the Mk2B regs and the Mk3 stand out is the feed back to the
charger. NO the Reg can not reduce the current to a battery beyond what it
can bypass, But it can also
command the main charger to ramp back the main total string charge current.
Together you have a system that will prevent any over charge conditions
anywhere on the entire string. This is the primary methode that AGMs get
Gassed and Vented from. Keep them all from gassing. Then keep the current
flowing long enough for the weak to fill.
Saftey First
Then equalization
Then time out. Or float.
Knowning a bit about the time spent in equalization.. will help in
calculating the time out.
Since meeting these voltage levels...requires reducing the main charge
current.. I do have control over Amps.. But accurate current control on
every battery.. is not needed. The act of hunting for a voltage point will
vary the current and time at that current all over the map. By putting a lid
on volts you control the current. You get to the same place.
Yes the key is actual measurment. Most folks have never measured every
battery in a string.. at many points in the charge curve. There is lots to
be learned from doing just this.
I am getting a bit casual about what I do everyday... Screens of battery
data...Why of course... that's most evident... Well most of you never see
this kind of stuff.
This is one of the reasons for doing the MK3 project, is to build a system
that enables folks to see what really is happening in the pack.
The hard part will be sorting through the data and then doing something
about it...That's gonna take some code....
At 75 bucks a Reg.. yea it's steep, but there are good volume discounts... A
single reg to play with IS priced to sting a bit.
I might recover the R&D time that doing the old 1/4 watt toss involves....
Off to the la Bora tory....
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Voltage and Amps... These are the only two tools to read and to vary.
>
> And time!
>
> > Unless you are also tracking past demand and charge cycles.
>
> Which are derived from voltge vs. time, and current vs. time.
>
> > So... You pick a voltage that will fill the battery on time and not
> > vent it. AGM and specifically Optimas recommend 14.8 volts. Seams to
> > work for most AGM batteries.
>
> It's a useful number; a good starting point. But other numbers can work
> equally well, either higher or lower, if you control the current and
> time appropriately. Also, the number changes with temperature, and as
> the battery ages.
>
> > That old Bucket of water concept is very valid. But you want them all
> > full, no matter if the buckets are slightly different sizes. Full and
> > barely dribbling over is a Known state.
>
> Yes.
>
> > Locking the peak voltage with any kind of regulator is a very good
> > first step. The second is to back off the main charger if you can't
> > dribble the extra power fast enough to keep the voltage below the
> > level you want them at.
>
> This is good as far as it goes. Just keep in mind that regulating
> voltage is NOT the same thing as regulating state of charge. Voltage is
> a symptom, but not the condition itself that you want to control.
>
> > Heck Lee, if these old concepts actually worked like folks say they
> > do, we wouldn't be making Chargers and BMS improvements now would we?
>
> Right! :-)
>
> The key point is to measure what is going on. Most people don't measure
> anything, so they have no idea what is actually going on. Battery
> vendors, charger manufacturers, and snake oil salesmen can say anything
> they like.
>
> But, once folks start to measure what is actually going on, they learn.
> And then, they question. "You said this was a 50 amphour battery, but I
> only get 30 amphours out of it..." You claimed this isa 15 amp charger,
> but that's only for the first 5 minutes..." "You said your patented
> charging algorithm would double my battery life, but it had no
> effect..."
>
> And, they learn what *really* works!
>
> > 14.8 is going to "Gas" the internal chemistry.. But not such that
> > venting will occur. Well, to any great degree.
>
> Agreed. For an AGM, you can put a certain number of amphours into it
> past the gassing threshold, and there will be room to contain the gas
> inside. Over a period of time, that gas will recombine back into water
> so it won't vent. But, you might charge too much, or the vents get
> leaky, or the battery gets old and so gases more. Over many charge
> cycles, you still lose a little.
>
> > The other means for AGM is a voltage hold While the amps taper back
> > to less than 2 amps. You NEVER drive the AGM over 15 if you can help
> > it. Doing so with a long series string just about guarantees you will
> > vent one of the batteries. There are clear exceptions to this rule...
>
> Yes, there are! For example, if the current is limited to under 1% of
> the battery's amphour capacity, it can recombine the gas back into water
> as fast as you are creating it; thus it won't vent even if you keep this
> up for days.
>
> For example, I have a poor old Hawker SBS60 battery that I got back from
> one of my BEST kid's EV teams. It is 6 years old, was run dead, and then
> left sitting for many months. When I got it back, it measured 11.4v.
> Charged normally, it immediately went over 15v at 0.1 amps. With a 1 amp
> load, it immediately collapsed to almost 0 volts.
>
> After a 24 hour, 16v, 1 amp charge, it had 4 amphours of capacity at 4
> amps. It then behaved "normally" for a 4 amphour battery, but way off
> what a 60 amphour battery should do. I.e. it has way too low a capacity,
> and way too much internal resistance, though the voltages and currents
> are normal.
>
> So, I've been cycling it all week with an abnormal charging regimen:
>
> 1. Discharge at 4 amps to 10.5v.
>
> 2. Charge with a 15 volt CV, 25amp CC charger to +2ah.
> Experimentally, another discharge cycle at this point yields
> the same amphours as the previous cycle, i.e. no improvement.
>
> 3. Continue charging to +5ah with a 16v CV, 0.5 amp CC charger.
> This takes over 10 hours, but the battery does NOT gas; it warms
> up slightly, and can recombine at the same rate as gas is produced.
>
> 4. Repeat from step 1 again.
>
> What I am finding is that on each cycle, the battery gains a couple more
> amphours of capacity. 4ah, 6.2ah, 8.1ah, and the last cycle was 10.0
> amphours.
>
> > Knowing the actual requirements of a single battery's state of charge.
> > Well Lee, that's just about impossible. You need a LOT of solid lab
> > grade data, as well as the history of the last charge cycle and depth
> > of discharge, age of battery and the number and depth of all cycles.
> > And then with some math and a Good WAG... you can kinda predict the
> > watts needed to solve the equation.
>
> It's not *that* bad, Rich!
>
> Suppose I gave you a battery and a cheap automotive battery charger, the
> kind that is nothing but a transformer, rectifier, and analog ammeter.
> Could you tell when to turn it off so the battery is fully charged?
>
> Sure you can! You'd charge until the ammeter quit falling; an eyeball
> version if the di/dt algorithm. Charge each of your batteries this way,
> and they'd all be at the same state of charge.
>
> There are lots of other methods, too. The basic idea is to do something
> *consistently* to every battery, so they will all be at the same state
> of charge. It might not be "full" or "empty", but it will be consistent.
> Once you are at that point, you can then charge or discharge them all
> together, the same, and they will stay reasonably close.
>
> Your regulator is a great product, and certainly a lot better than
> nothing. But, it only looks at one parameter; battery voltage. It
> doesn't know the current, so it can't estimate state of charge -- 14.8v
> at 10 amps is a *lot* different than 14.8v at 1 amp!
>
> A straightforward improvement would be to a) pick a current that your
> regulator can safely bypass continuously, b) setup your charger to
> regulate at that current when the first regulator hits its threshold
> voltage. Then, as each regulator turns on, it reduces its battery's
> charging current to ZERO amps. Thus, each battery STOPS charging at the
> same voltage and same current; thus they all stop at (about) the same
> state of charge.
>
> Or another approach. My Battery Balancer measures each battery's no-load
> voltage. It uses the *difference* in voltage to estimate the
> *difference* in their states of charge. It then charges each battery for
> a time proportional to the difference in their states of charge. It then
> repeats this about once an hour. The batteries are thus being pushed
> toward the same state of charge, regardless of whether they are all at
> 100%, or 50% or 0% state of charge.
>
> > I am not sure which one gives a better charge... But I really do
> > know which one is more cost effective.... And which one is easier
> > to implement.
>
> I'm not so sure, if your new regulators are going to be $75 each.
>
> I think you may want to do a little more research; set up the regulators
> in your series string a little bit differently, and measure what this
> actually does to the batteries.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
