EV Digest 5412
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Automatic, Manual, or CVT?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NEDRA election results
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Automatic, Manual, or CVT?
by "Joe Wasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 'Simply Given? was:White Zombie Update...
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Thoughts on getting publicity
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Flywheel Batteries (Elecro Mechanical Batteries?)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Some problems to solve
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Flywheel Batteries (Elecro Mechanical Batteries?)
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you much for all of the information, David.
Do you know the energy density, or mAh capacity, of one of those A123
cells?
What do you think about this battery? Which chemistry is it?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=542
2.4A isn't bad...I wanted ten in parallel for 24A continuous. 2.4A each
is only 461mW of dissipation per cell...it seems not that high. How far
could someone push the current for about ten seconds?
I read in a battery management IC's datasheet that the cell impedance
may double over the lifetime of the battery. Is this true? How can one
tell which chemistries apply to the rule (V28, A123, normal)?
- Arthur
On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 01:57 +1000, David Ankers wrote:
> All I can say is in RC land these don't as promising, the A123 cells Dewalt
> are using are claimed discharge at 35c constant 80c long pulse and 100c
> instant pulse, however they are smaller capacity. Their cycle graph though
> only shows lifetime at 10C constant (which is down to 80% after 1000 cycles)
>
> http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id471.htm
>
> The main issue putting RC guys off these is the low energy density so they
> are going to weight more. They do have exceptional power density though -
> which maybe good for the drag race guys? Both EV and RC Heli (yeap people
> drag race RC helis). Another issue for the RC crowd is that they can't be
> charged with a standard RC charger that does lithium cells as the normal cut
> off at 4.2 volts damages the A123 cells.
>
> Another great thing about the technology from both E-one Moli and a123 is
> how safe its meant to be, after the RC guys have had numerous LiPo fires
> (mostly user compliancy / mishandling), Lithium manganese is far safer:
>
> http://www.bmz-gmbh.de/aktuell/akkutest2.html
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:11 AM
> To: David Ankers
> Subject: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone
> is happy.)
>
> Has anyone tested the Dewalt Lithium batts?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > We are just using standard RC chargers which handle Lithium cells,
> the v28s
> > are charged as Lithium Polymers despite being Lithium Ion based (most rc
> > chargers have options for both). A typical mid-range charger is
> something
> > like this:
> >
> > http://www.rc-direct.com/schulze330.htm
> >
> > > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the
> > > string as a single battery?
> >
> > Really it's both, often with v28s, I would just stick it on the
> charger and
> > charge it as a string. However, most people make the packs with
> balancing
> > tabs on them and can be charged through a balancer. Examples are here:
> >
> > http://www.espritmodel.com/accesories_balancer.html
> >
> > For RC, some kind of individual cell BMS is a must though. The
> balancer goes
> > inline between the charger and the pack. I expect these are the same
> idea as
> > regulators used in EVs just much smaller? When charging LiPo batteries I
> > *always* use the balancer inline, LiPos need babying far more than
> the v28s.
> > With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
> charge
> > once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
> >
> > Hence why the RC guys love them, they can be discharged to a level
> where an
> > RC heli won't fly any longer and still spring right back on a charge,
> > furthermore packs never really seem to go out of balance much - A
> too deeply
> > discharged LiPo on the other hand would swell up and be useless. Most RC
> > LiPo packs can be charged at 1C only, for some people, the v28s are
> handling
> > 3C charges fine.
> >
> > These packs were going for US$80 on ebay for a while, unfortunately,
> all the
> > RC guys are getting in bidding wars over them and it's keeping the price
> > high. Currently the E-one Moli guys (who make the cells) are at full
> > capacity just to supply Milwaukee but I'm sure this will change in
> time.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Neon John
> > Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 3:39 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
> > someone is happy.)
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:31:26 +1000, "David Ankers"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >The guts of the v28s:
> > >
> > >http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508443
> >
> > Thanks much for the link. That info and the low cost of the packs
> > (street price just a bit over $100) has my juices flowing....
> >
> > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the string
> > as a single battery?
> >
> > What chargers?
> >
> > I have a non-EV project in mind where these cells would work perfectly
> > if I didn't have to BMS every one individually. Charging speed isn't
> > an issue - overnight would be fine - so I can sacrifice speed for
> > simplicity.
> >
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.johngsbbq.com
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Jacob Portukalian wrote:
Automatic, Manual, CVT, or none?
Looking for pros, cons, tips, tricks, caveats, and any other type of
feedback from people that have actually used them.
I haven't seen a CVT setup yet... At what motor RPM does a CVT like
to be driven at and would that be the most efficient for an electric
motor? I don't think I'd like to have to attempt to try and keep the
rpm fixed at all times using the throttle..
A good CVT will attempt to keep the motor at a narrow RPM band no matter
what your foot is doing.
The CVT doesn't "like" a particular RPM, it tends to "enforce" a RPM
range. Push the throttle down more, the car will speed up, but then the
gearing starts to change which keeps the RPM about where it was before
(that is the ideal at least). Now there *are* many tricks, variations,
and limitations that have appeared in different CVT designs which change
the behavior a bit. But the whole point of a CVT is that you *don't*
have to think about the motors RPM, you just get the best gear ratio for
efficiency or performance automagically.
See: http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/gearbox/tech_gear_cvt.htm
Note that there is now one production CVT that is designed for torquey
applications (286 ft/lbs) and has no belts, the Nissan Extroid CVT. This
might be a good fit for an EV since it's main weakness is a limited
ratio range, which wouldn't bother a electric motor much. But the
problem is that it's still JDM only... :-(
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn Lawless wrote:
Does anyone know what happen to the NEDRA election results? As an
interested party it would be nice to know.
I spoke with Brian yesterday afternoon and he hadn't heard anything yet.
Chip posted on the NEDRA forum that he hadn't heard anything but that
when he did, he would put it up on the NEDRA site immediately.
If I recall correctly from Dean's last missive, the anonymous impartial
counter was supposed to announce the result since Dean was on vacation.
Brian said that Dean got back Monday so hopefully something will be
forthcoming soon.
Looks really bad for Dean to leave everyone hanging like this. I would
expect that the 50 potential votes (being VERY generous here, probably
less than half that) should be pretty quick and simple to count. Monday
was the extended cutoff day for the receipt of all ballots. Wonder what
the hold up is?
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
V28 E-one moli cell IMR26700: 110 wh/kg, 1500W/kg 20 seconds
A123 cell 2.2AH 3.35v : 100 wh/kg, 3480W/kg 5 seconds, 2700W/kg
continuous
The winner? A123. E-one only has 10 wh/kg more, but a lot less power, and
probably less cycle/calendar life. And then these are probably 1C ratings.
A123 might catch up or exceed Wh/kg of moli cell at HIGH rates.
About impedance, right from A123's site:
Impedance growth is one of the top failure modes of high power batteries and
a major cause of power fade over the life of the battery. Our batteries are
uniquely engineered (pat. pending) so their internal resistance (impedance)
will decrease with their use. This is the opposite effect to most Li Ion
cells which experience a growth in their internal resistance as they are
cycled at high rates or temperatures. This is a significant benefit in
applications requiring long calendar life such as hybrid electric vehicles
or in devices that simply must work such as medical devices or mission
critical systems.
Now think about this...with a123 cells you can get a 1000 HP EV with a
600-700 pound battery. Who's going to be the first to build it? How about
500 HP with a 350 pound battery then?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
Thank you much for all of the information, David.
Do you know the energy density, or mAh capacity, of one of those A123
cells?
What do you think about this battery? Which chemistry is it?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=542
2.4A isn't bad...I wanted ten in parallel for 24A continuous. 2.4A each
is only 461mW of dissipation per cell...it seems not that high. How far
could someone push the current for about ten seconds?
I read in a battery management IC's datasheet that the cell impedance
may double over the lifetime of the battery. Is this true? How can one
tell which chemistries apply to the rule (V28, A123, normal)?
- Arthur
On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 01:57 +1000, David Ankers wrote:
All I can say is in RC land these don't as promising, the A123 cells
Dewalt
are using are claimed discharge at 35c constant 80c long pulse and 100c
instant pulse, however they are smaller capacity. Their cycle graph
though
only shows lifetime at 10C constant (which is down to 80% after 1000
cycles)
http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id471.htm
The main issue putting RC guys off these is the low energy density so
they
are going to weight more. They do have exceptional power density though -
which maybe good for the drag race guys? Both EV and RC Heli (yeap people
drag race RC helis). Another issue for the RC crowd is that they can't be
charged with a standard RC charger that does lithium cells as the normal
cut
off at 4.2 volts damages the A123 cells.
Another great thing about the technology from both E-one Moli and a123 is
how safe its meant to be, after the RC guys have had numerous LiPo fires
(mostly user compliancy / mishandling), Lithium manganese is far safer:
http://www.bmz-gmbh.de/aktuell/akkutest2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:11 AM
To: David Ankers
Subject: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
someone
is happy.)
Has anyone tested the Dewalt Lithium batts?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> We are just using standard RC chargers which handle Lithium cells,
the v28s
> are charged as Lithium Polymers despite being Lithium Ion based (most
> rc
> chargers have options for both). A typical mid-range charger is
something
> like this:
>
> http://www.rc-direct.com/schulze330.htm
>
> > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the
> > string as a single battery?
>
> Really it's both, often with v28s, I would just stick it on the
charger and
> charge it as a string. However, most people make the packs with
balancing
> tabs on them and can be charged through a balancer. Examples are here:
>
> http://www.espritmodel.com/accesories_balancer.html
>
> For RC, some kind of individual cell BMS is a must though. The
balancer goes
> inline between the charger and the pack. I expect these are the same
idea as
> regulators used in EVs just much smaller? When charging LiPo batteries
> I
> *always* use the balancer inline, LiPos need babying far more than
the v28s.
> With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
charge
> once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
>
> Hence why the RC guys love them, they can be discharged to a level
where an
> RC heli won't fly any longer and still spring right back on a charge,
> furthermore packs never really seem to go out of balance much - A
too deeply
> discharged LiPo on the other hand would swell up and be useless. Most
> RC
> LiPo packs can be charged at 1C only, for some people, the v28s are
handling
> 3C charges fine.
>
> These packs were going for US$80 on ebay for a while, unfortunately,
all the
> RC guys are getting in bidding wars over them and it's keeping the
> price
> high. Currently the E-one Moli guys (who make the cells) are at full
> capacity just to supply Milwaukee but I'm sure this will change in
time.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 3:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll
> bet
> someone is happy.)
>
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:31:26 +1000, "David Ankers"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >The guts of the v28s:
> >
> >http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508443
>
> Thanks much for the link. That info and the low cost of the packs
> (street price just a bit over $100) has my juices flowing....
>
> Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the string
> as a single battery?
>
> What chargers?
>
> I have a non-EV project in mind where these cells would work perfectly
> if I didn't have to BMS every one individually. Charging speed isn't
> an issue - overnight would be fine - so I can sacrifice speed for
> simplicity.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The extroid looks a lot like the (variator portion of the) ToroTrak
Toroidal IVT (CVT). The ToroTrax also adds a planetary gearset for
higher ratios, geared neutral, and reverse. They claim no torque
limitations. Using the variator or the full system would likely work
for an EV, with roughly the same ratio range as the Extroid (my guess,
tehcnical details are hard to come by on ToroTrak's site). The big
problem with ToroTrak is that they aren't in production, in fact they
are a technology company looking to partner with manufacturers so
there's no off-the-shelf component you can buy.
Toyota was looking at them a few years ago (2000) and decided not to
go with their technology primarily because of unacceptable vibration
(that's the popular story, at least). They claim to have fixed the
vibration problems and there's a lab report from the company ToroTrak
hired to investigate the problem so it's apparent they did do some
work on it.
On 4/26/06, Stefan T. Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Note that there is now one production CVT that is designed for torquey
> applications (286 ft/lbs) and has no belts, the Nissan Extroid CVT. This
> might be a good fit for an EV since it's main weakness is a limited
> ratio range, which wouldn't bother a electric motor much. But the
> problem is that it's still JDM only... :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The batteries go right down the center of the vehicle as I remember. I
think it still seats four. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
I don't have any photos in digital form, but my memory from seeing the ACP
Civic is that the entire back seat and hatchback area was(is) full of the
Optimas. I don't think there were any batteries under the hood.
Andrew
David Ankers wrote:
It was mentioned before that AC propulsion did a Civic conversion that had
6
second 0 to 60 time but I couldn't find any information on it, fantastic
to
know that up to 28 D34 batteries will fit, thank you. In fact AC
Propulsion's AC-150 system is exactly what I would like to fit as well,
except for the $25k price tag!
Are their any pictures of this conversion anywhere? I'd be interested in
their battery placement for sure.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
Look at how much farther ahead John is simply by virtue of being given
high performance batteries and the one-off custom-built motor. ...'
John Wayland responded:
...to imply it was simple seems to be quite a slap in the face. <SNIP>
I find it odd that Neon John would make the comment 'simply
given'....oh well.
I don't find it odd and anyone who has followed Neon John's posts over
the years shouldn't be surprised either. He never lets the truth stand
in the way of an opportunity to insult or belittle someone for no
apparent reason. He has been refreshingly civil these last few months,
but insulting is his true nature and he has a hard time concealing it.
Anyone who has been on this list for more than five minutes is well
aware of the hard work, high expense and long endurance that John and
his crew have put into achieving his impressive race times. John earned
his place at the top of the heap.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Way to go on the article!
Here in Florida, we have found that having an active EAA chapter and website
helps, and then of course the escalating price of gasoline is the main force
and impetus that drives the public and the media to our website, who then
request interviews. In just the last week, we have had two newspaper
articles, two TV news stories, and one radio interview of our members
regarding EVs in Florida and the Florida EAA. And more requests for TV,
radio, and newspaper interviews are now pouring in. Once the ball gets
rolling, it just seems to feed on itself and gather up momentum and take
off. Also, getting your EAA chapter organized to exhibit your EVs at local
events is another big publicity driver. We are displaying our EVs at 4 big
South Florida events over the course of two weeks (which we are in the
middle of right now), speaking and showing off our EVs to hundreds of people
at each one.
By the way, someone else said something about mentioning PHEVs at public
events. I wholeheartedly agree with this and spend a lot of time educating
people about PHEVs at these public events. BEVs, at least in their present
form, even 120-mile rangers like mine and like Steve's, just don't seem to
do it for a lot of folks, no matter how hard you try to make all of those
persuasive arguments about how most Americans drive 30 miles a day or less
on average. I do know a few people who drive more, like my brother who
drives 160 miles a day and now uses my 13 year old Honda Civic @ 40 mpg for
that commute, which I gave him after I got our two RAV4-EVs, doubling the
economy of his 20mpg Volvo, which was burning a big hole in his wallet and
now sits unused in his driveway, but many people I talk to at these public
events claim likewise, that they are all driving 250 miles up to Tampa 3
weekends a month and stuff like that. Everyone seems to think they need a
300-mile range car, no matter what you tell them. I guess no one is -- or
wants to be -- an "average" American. What was it about that school where
all the children are above average? :-) So when I start telling these
people about PHEVs and how plugging them in is optional and they can still
do their 250 mile trips every weekend and how Toyota is working on a plug-in
Prius for the 2008-2009 model year timeframe, they really get that and feel
that it would be perfect for them. No need for a second car, and they can
do most of their driving during the week in electric-only mode, *IF* they
choose to. But if they're too tired or lazy or forget to plug in at night,
no problem, they just pay for gasoline. The more expensive gasoline
becomes, the more motivation they will have to remember to plug in at night.
My experience in talking with dozens of people about this is that they seem
to really like the idea of a PHEV because it is so flexible and gives them
choices and options in a single vehicle.
Best regards,
Charles Whalen
Florida EAA
www.floridaeaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:40 AM
Subject: Thoughts on getting publicity
Hi Everyone,
Bill Dennis and I are famous :)
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3752061
My first newspaper article in the local paper (not this one) came by
e-mailing the paper when I saw an article on gas prices (or something
related). I mentioned I had an electric car, and would be glad to be
interviewed for an article. They called a few days later.
This article came about by a news correspondent seeing the first article.
I feel like it's important to not only drive around our EVs and let
neighbors/friends know, but try to get the word out further with whatever
means are available. Although EVs in their current state aren't a
solution to everyone's travel needs, they present an alternative for
some - in their current state. This isn't a technology that's 5 or 10
years down the road...at least for those willing to convert their own :)
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Datel has a line of similar meters; see
<http://www.cd4power.com/data/meters/dpm_pdb1.pdf>
Their smallest are 1.38"w x 0.88"h; that's a 3.5 digit (19.99 format).
Thanks Lee. This size will work fine. I'll likely just purchase one at a time
at first and see how I like the result. Rather then purchase several at once
only to find out that I don't.
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Adding a low ma fuse to each lead is even better. I've seen microfuses with
ratings as low as 20 ma.
This sounds good to me. I see a 0.25 amp fast-acting fuse here:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103752&cp=&origkw=0.25a&kw=0.25a&parentPage=search
My thought is I'd actually use 2 fuses per battery/voltage monitor: a 20 amp
inline fuse folder/fuse next to the battery, and the 0.25 amp (or thereabouts)
fuse just outside the battery box and prior to the wire length run to the dash
area voltmeter. I don't want to have to pull out the batts digging for the tiny
fuse that blew for whatever reason, yet still want adequate fuse protection
next to the battery in case of nearby wire short.
Any other suggestions? I'm inclined to agree with Neon John that if it is
done properly, it is safe.
Mark
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:34:04 -0000, "Mike Phillips"
wrote:
>Look carefully into the vendors datasheet. Many of those displays need
>an isolated power supply.
>
>Bringing all of those wires into the cabin of the vehicle is a serious
>high voltage hazard.
No, not if it is done correctly. Current-limiting the circuit at the
pack and fusing it appropriately removes any shock hazard. An LCD
meter needs less than a single ma to operate and an LED meter only a
few. It's easy enough to limit the current with a simple resistor in
each lead. Just crimp the resistor to the lug that attaches to the
battery post and heat-shrink the whole affair. Adding a low ma fuse
to each lead is even better. I've seen microfuses with ratings as low
as 20 ma.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Manufacturers:
> http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/flywheels.htm
> http://www.afstrinity.com/other-facts-faqs.html
>
The first entry lead to:
http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/docs/SmartEnergy25.pdf
which has specs for the 25kWh version - 3150lbs total weight = 8wh/lb
(less than any battery), and a 200kW peak = 64w/lb (less than AGMs),
but you'd have no Peukert factor to deal with and they're rated to
have *300,000 operating cycles*. Should fit public transit, or ganged
up as back-up for a stationary installation, but near-future EVs are
more likely to end up with a lithium pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
First, thanks to all who provided great responses on this thread about
proper charging for sealed lead acid batteries. It's been very helpful for
me to identify what I believe is the cause for the batteries getting so far
out of balance.
I recall several months ago a discussion about proper PFC-20 DIP switch
settings for this setup. Without the actual post to refer to, I remember
thinking that I should have switches 1, 3 and 4 on. Here's the summary of
switch functions 1-4:
1 enables the timer when acceptance voltage is reached.
2 enables the timer when the charger is turned on.
3 enables the timer when the Regbus is regulating
4 enables the timer latch after the first reg hits thermal limit
Seems reasonable to me, or at least it did when I set it up that way. Now I
believe that only switch 1 should be set. Since I can rely on the regs to
communicate an over temperature or need to reduce current to the charger,
then the timer should start only after the acceptance voltage is reached. At
its present settings, the charger was timing out as soon as the first
battery got "full" (at that current--yes, Joe and Rich, I see that same
funky behavior), and the rest of the batteries never were getting a decent
charge.
I plan on first giving the individual charge routine another go, just to get
the batteries closer. After that, I'll institute the "switch 1 only" method
to give the full pack a nice charge at about 370 volts. Next, a few light
cycles on the car, bringing the pack back to 370 V each time. Then, if I can
only take the next 72 hours off of work with no sleep or food, I'll be able
to finish the interior of the car, complete the hitch and wiring harness and
attach the generator to my utility trailer in time for Steve's EV Rally on
Saturday!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:21 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
OK....
I am seeing somthings that are kind of funny and DO support both out views.
First the Funny part.And some back ground for those that are not keeping
track of "Project Mark3 on my Fiero"...
Today's setup is... 15 3 to 4 year old Orbitals on my Zilla 2K power 11
inch Kostov power Fiero. Yea.. it can suck some amp!
The act of sucking 1000 amps is NOT the best treatment for a battery pack.
No where's Lee does this show up in a Good things to do to your pack!!!
50 amp hour batteries... at 1000 amps is 20C... Kinda fun though!!!
First data points.. all the Mk3 locked the Red LED on. So... they ALL got
sagged below 10 volts. Ok how far??? Until now.. I have not had a clue, So I
just hooked up the data cable to the front pack, And read the Min volts on
all 9 batteries, the range was 9.3 to 8.2 volts with only one resetting.
What ??? reseting???? That's gotta be below 5 volts! OUch! 1000 amps pretty
much flattened the Orbs!
I bet my Low voltage setting on the Zilla kept the number from going any
lower. Sheesh!! and these are the Mighty Orbs.
First blush is.. one battery has to leave before I open it... The soft
battery Is #8 up front. This is NOT the same battery that won't charge up to
14 volts with 20 hours of equalization time. Funny What looks stiff on
charge is not nessarily the one that drops of the face of the earth under a
hammering load. Hummm Strange.
So.. I need to some how trap one of these events and show all us Listers
what is happening.. Kinda interesting, Racers should fear this...I will find
the weak ones... hopefully without anymore lead vapor on the pant legs...
since I wear shorts... that is NOT a good thing.
But for days... I have been letting the Regs and the charger just do thier
thing... Hot regs, Digital tracking and analog feed back to the
charger...all that good stuff that I have been preaching about. It's fun to
watch the pack actually drift into equalization...hammer it.. and then watch
it repair it self. But... getting all the battereis to stay locked into peak
voltage and low current is infuriatingly hard to do. Those that voltage
spike early, and take control of the charger... are not the ones that hold
the pack to low amps when the current has tapered to less than 2 amps.
I had the Fiero off line for about 2 weeks waiting for motor work. So the
front and back pack were not being equalized, and Well the back pack had not
had any Reg of any kind on them, and the front have the first 9 Mk3 Regs
that are seeing real action. Fact is the Mk3regs Do drink power... LOTS more
than the Mk2B, but that's because we have not added in the low power sleep
modes that we know we need to keep just this from happening. So the front 9
saw about 50 Ma loads for 10 days.. the back saw only thier self discharge.
In a week this amounted to quite a big difference. After the the first
ride.. on charge I caught a 16.9 volt peak on one of the back batteries.
DIVE! for the charger throttles! The back have to have regs. I got that done
between realatives and a nasty chest cold.. more drift.. more data for the
BMS to sort through.
Clearly holding the pack to less than 2 amps.. for some is not enough, for
others, it's way too much. All do trend to my target of 14.8. some get
close.. some have to have LOT of bypassing to hold them down to 14.8.
Putting a Lid on all of them at 14.79 is a Safe mode... but it's not the
total story. But it solves the rapid Killing that happens if you don't.
Getting a perfect charge on all the batteries, only helps the longevity.
Most of my efforts to this time have been to get them full and Not kill
them. Now comes the subtilties in getting them all to a perfect charge.
Keep in mind that the charger has a set voltage peak of 222 volts This is
exactly 14.8 volts for every one of the 15 Orbs. The Regs clamp every
battery to not excede 14.8, and while they bypass they also trigger the
charger to drop back power. This prevents the Regs from having blow off the
entire output of the charger. This is the Reg generated feedback to the
charger. It makes for some really nice automated peak voltage control for
every battery. I find that rarley does the charger voltage regulation go
active, almost always there is a Reg that takes control before the total
peak is reached.
Lee I will keep the 14.22 volts in mind. But this number also needs to be
preceded with a temperature and a spec gravity of the Acid. The 14.22 is
just too tight a number for all Lead Acid cells.
Since I know that every flavor has slightly different Spec grav numbers, and
acid concetration and temp are the key factors in cell voltage.
Understood is that you probably mean at 68 Deg F, 1.260 Spec gravity,
flooded chemistry, and held there while watching for Gas bubbles. Pure lead
plates in mint condition.
More later But this is a on going effort and the stories are pretty good for
us Ev Geeks.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Ok Lee...
> > I am not going to give a complete reply.. here I have a hungry EV and
> > a stack of MK3 Regs to errr... modify for today, and I have been sick
> > on my back for two days...
>
> Ouch! Sorry to hear about that. Make some time to rest up and recover.
>
> > Regs alone are not the complete answer, nor is a highly flexible
> > data collection system.
>
> No; there are a whole progression of answers, depending on how exacting
> your questions are.
>
> If you don't want to murder your batteries today, a cheap simple system
> is good enough. Just a voltmeter so you can stop driving before you pull
> them too low, and a timer to shut off your charger before it boils the
> batteries to death.
>
> If you don't want to murder them this year, you need something a little
> better. An E-meter so you have some idea how much charge is left, and a
> charger that follows some reasonable charging algorithm will do it.
>
> If you want the batteries to last several years, they'll need some
> individual care; balancing, equalizing, etc. This is where these simple
> regulators fit in. They allow you to put slightly different amounts of
> charge into each battery, to compensate for the growing differences
> between them as they age. And, you need a smarter charger, since battery
> characteristics change with depth of discharge, temperature, age, etc.
>
> If you want your batteries to last as long as possible, you need even
> more elaborate measurement and control systems. That's where something
> like my Battery Balancer comes in.
>
> > Together you have a system that will prevent any over charge
> > conditions anywhere on the entire string. This is the primary
> > method that AGMs get Gassed and Vented from. Keep them all from
> > gassing. Then keep the current flowing long enough for the weak
> > to fill.
>
> Your theory is good; but this isn't quite what your regulators and
> charger are doing in practice.
>
> The gassing threshold is 2.37v/cell, or 14.22v per 12v battery. Your
> regulators are going well above this. So they gas the batteries.
>
> There is room for some gas inside the battery, and an AGM can (slowly)
> recombine gas back into water. So, if you limit the current and time
> (i.e. amphours) you put in when over 14.22v, it won't vent.
>
> But, your charging system does *not* control the actual current or time
> that each battery sees over 14.22v. It *limits* the current (by
> bypassing some of the charging current around the battery). And the
> charger *limit* the total charging time, but *not* the time any one
> battery spends over the gassing threshold.
>
> > accurate current control on every battery is not needed.
>
> Well, that depends on your goals (see above). It's not "needed" if you
> don't want to maximize battery life.
>
> > The act of hunting for a voltage point will vary the current and time
> > at that current all over the map. By putting a lid on volts you
> > control the current. You get to the same place.
>
> Not quite. You can control current by controlling voltage. But you are
> simply clamping the voltage, irrespective of what it does to current.
>
> > Yes the key is actual measurment... This is one of the reasons for
> > doing the MK3 project, is to build a system that enables folks to
> > see what really is happening in the pack.
> >
> > The hard part will be sorting through the data and then doing
> > something about it. That's gonna take some code.
>
> Exactly!
>
> I'm suggesting that what you may find is that simply regulating voltages
> does not really control the amount of overcharge very well.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The A123 cells come in a few sizes I believe but the ones in the Dewalt
tools are 2200mAh.
I also don't trust a lot of battery figures (from experience) - I for one am
extremely glad that the battery market is hotting up however, the marketing
steps up a gear as well and until these are available in the real world to
guys that will push them, most of it has to be taken with a grain of salt.
This is especially true for the real world amount of cycles the batteries
will sustain. Both the E-Moli and the A123 technology was licensed from the
work MIT did with Manganese Lithium chemistry, no idea which company
licensed the newer technology or if they are in fact the same.
Those cells you linked to are the more tradition Li-Ions, they could either
contain cobalt compounds in which case they can be nasty if mistreated or
some cells replace cobalt with more stable Phosphate compounds but its
imposable to tell with out the full specs - I'd assume the worst.
As it's a 2C cell, it should be OK for 4C bursts but it varies from battery
to battery and every time you stress them you'll shorten their life time.
These seem a little bit better than the standard first generation laptop
batteries that normally allow only 1.5C discharge.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Arthur W. Matteson
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 3:53 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
Thank you much for all of the information, David.
Do you know the energy density, or mAh capacity, of one of those A123
cells?
What do you think about this battery? Which chemistry is it?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=542
2.4A isn't bad...I wanted ten in parallel for 24A continuous. 2.4A each
is only 461mW of dissipation per cell...it seems not that high. How far
could someone push the current for about ten seconds?
I read in a battery management IC's datasheet that the cell impedance
may double over the lifetime of the battery. Is this true? How can one
tell which chemistries apply to the rule (V28, A123, normal)?
- Arthur
On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 01:57 +1000, David Ankers wrote:
> All I can say is in RC land these don't as promising, the A123 cells
Dewalt
> are using are claimed discharge at 35c constant 80c long pulse and 100c
> instant pulse, however they are smaller capacity. Their cycle graph though
> only shows lifetime at 10C constant (which is down to 80% after 1000
cycles)
>
> http://www.batteriesdigest.com/id471.htm
>
> The main issue putting RC guys off these is the low energy density so they
> are going to weight more. They do have exceptional power density though -
> which maybe good for the drag race guys? Both EV and RC Heli (yeap people
> drag race RC helis). Another issue for the RC crowd is that they can't be
> charged with a standard RC charger that does lithium cells as the normal
cut
> off at 4.2 volts damages the A123 cells.
>
> Another great thing about the technology from both E-one Moli and a123 is
> how safe its meant to be, after the RC guys have had numerous LiPo fires
> (mostly user compliancy / mishandling), Lithium manganese is far safer:
>
> http://www.bmz-gmbh.de/aktuell/akkutest2.html
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 1:11 AM
> To: David Ankers
> Subject: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
someone
> is happy.)
>
> Has anyone tested the Dewalt Lithium batts?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > We are just using standard RC chargers which handle Lithium cells,
> the v28s
> > are charged as Lithium Polymers despite being Lithium Ion based (most rc
> > chargers have options for both). A typical mid-range charger is
> something
> > like this:
> >
> > http://www.rc-direct.com/schulze330.htm
> >
> > > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the
> > > string as a single battery?
> >
> > Really it's both, often with v28s, I would just stick it on the
> charger and
> > charge it as a string. However, most people make the packs with
> balancing
> > tabs on them and can be charged through a balancer. Examples are here:
> >
> > http://www.espritmodel.com/accesories_balancer.html
> >
> > For RC, some kind of individual cell BMS is a must though. The
> balancer goes
> > inline between the charger and the pack. I expect these are the same
> idea as
> > regulators used in EVs just much smaller? When charging LiPo batteries I
> > *always* use the balancer inline, LiPos need babying far more than
> the v28s.
> > With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
> charge
> > once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
> >
> > Hence why the RC guys love them, they can be discharged to a level
> where an
> > RC heli won't fly any longer and still spring right back on a charge,
> > furthermore packs never really seem to go out of balance much - A
> too deeply
> > discharged LiPo on the other hand would swell up and be useless. Most RC
> > LiPo packs can be charged at 1C only, for some people, the v28s are
> handling
> > 3C charges fine.
> >
> > These packs were going for US$80 on ebay for a while, unfortunately,
> all the
> > RC guys are getting in bidding wars over them and it's keeping the price
> > high. Currently the E-one Moli guys (who make the cells) are at full
> > capacity just to supply Milwaukee but I'm sure this will change in
> time.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Neon John
> > Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 3:39 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: V28 battery (was Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet
> > someone is happy.)
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:31:26 +1000, "David Ankers"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >The guts of the v28s:
> > >
> > >http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508443
> >
> > Thanks much for the link. That info and the low cost of the packs
> > (street price just a bit over $100) has my juices flowing....
> >
> > Are the RC guys using individual cell BMS or just charging the string
> > as a single battery?
> >
> > What chargers?
> >
> > I have a non-EV project in mind where these cells would work perfectly
> > if I didn't have to BMS every one individually. Charging speed isn't
> > an issue - overnight would be fine - so I can sacrifice speed for
> > simplicity.
> >
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.johngsbbq.com
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> This won't work on a car with a cut down flywheel or no tranny but why not
> reinstall the starter motor from the stock transmission. Reverse the leads.
> Just use a 12v battery to power it.
The Ford starter I am somewhat familiar with just has one hot cable
going to it and the case is the ground. How do we make this spin the
other way?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:37 PM 4/26/2006, you wrote:
> Manufacturers:
> http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/flywheels.htm
> http://www.afstrinity.com/other-facts-faqs.html
>
The first entry lead to:
http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/docs/SmartEnergy25.pdf
which has specs for the 25kWh version - 3150lbs total weight = 8wh/lb
(less than any battery), and a 200kW peak = 64w/lb (less than AGMs),
but you'd have no Peukert factor to deal with and they're rated to
have *300,000 operating cycles*. Should fit public transit, or ganged
up as back-up for a stationary installation, but near-future EVs are
more likely to end up with a lithium pack.
Says the standby loss (power needed to keep it spinning?) is <2% of rated
power.
That is a high self discharge if it were used in a storage application like
an EV, this thing is intended to be plugged into the grid until needed.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
