EV Digest 5413
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) switching rotation of a single terminal motor
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Speedometer without a transmission?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 'Simply Given? was:White Zombie Update...
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Speedometer without a transmission?
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Some problems to solve
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Some problems to solve
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie
Update...360 Volts...More HP!
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone is happy.
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: switching rotation of a single terminal motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 'Simply Given? was:White Zombie Update...
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Flywheel Batteries (Elecro Mechanical Batteries?)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie
Update...360 Volts...More HP!
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Thoughts on getting publicity
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
DeWalt offers 36-volt cordless tools using batteries from A123. These
should be worthy competitors to Milwaukee's V28 tools. It'll be
interesting to see how this competition plays out.
I wonder if anyone offers a lithium-ion system for smaller cordless tools?
The 28- and 36-volt tools from Milwaukee and DeWalt are overkill for most
uses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
...plus, the bendix drive on all starters I'm aware of will only allow
it to engage in one direction.
On second thought, my dad's 1950 Chevy pickup had a big mechanical
starter button on the floorboard. I wonder if that actually moved the
starter into engagement with ring gear or if it was just an electrical
switch. Anybody know if there are starters that don't have a
"conventional" bendix drive? Or perhaps get a starter that is designed
to turn the opposite direction (Honda?) from what your car was designed
for so the bendix works _only_ in reverse.
cheers,
Andrew
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
This won't work on a car with a cut down flywheel or no tranny but why not
reinstall the starter motor from the stock transmission. Reverse the leads.
Just use a 12v battery to power it.
The Ford starter I am somewhat familiar with just has one hot cable
going to it and the case is the ground. How do we make this spin the
other way?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/26/06, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > This won't work on a car with a cut down flywheel or no tranny but why not
> > reinstall the starter motor from the stock transmission. Reverse the leads.
> > Just use a 12v battery to power it.
>
> The Ford starter I am somewhat familiar with just has one hot cable
> going to it and the case is the ground. How do we make this spin the
> other way?
The same way you make any series-wound motor go backwards - reverse
the field. Note that this almost certainly won't work though, since
almost all starters incorporate some kind of freewheel to prevent them
being oversped by the engine. Although you could weld it up perhaps.
And the older inertia-engage type.. won't.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Now think about this...with a123 cells you can get a 1000 HP EV with a
> 600-700 pound battery. Who's going to be the first to build it? How
about
> 500 HP with a 350 pound battery then?
>
We need Dewalt to sponsor a "Gone Postal"-type show on Discovery
Channel, but centered around a *lightweight*, *aerodynamic* dragster
powered by their 36V batteries - how about a Z2K, a fully-optimize 13"
motor, and a 11S25P pack...or will A123 Systems supply naked cells
when E-Moli wouldn't?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Ankers wrote:
> Motor 9" ADC or Warp 9" (will a 9" motor fit in a Civic?)
Check out the Warp 9" Impulse:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_impulse.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >The Ford starter I am somewhat
familiar with just has one hot cable
>going to it and the case is the ground. How do we make this spin the
>other way?
You'd have to switch the brush positions. If the grounded brush (rivited to
the housing) is at the 6 and 12 spots they would need to be switched to the 3
ad 9 spots, the other brush set would also need to be switched. There is
probably not enough lead length to do this and so a new set would be needed or
made.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since there are a number of people on the list without transmissions where did
you get a speedo to work without one. I see racing ones and some GPS ones but
they have a pretty high premium. Is there a run of the mill speedo that I can
use with a driveshaft that someone can point me to?
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Keep in mind also, that I openly share all info about everything I
do in
> regards to racing and the items we either design or modify. One of my
> goals is to make it easier for others to join in and race and or daily
> drive their EVs. You can check with anybody, and you'll never hear one
> word about me slamming the hood shut, or cloaking the car from view, or
> refusing to share what I know with other competitors, friends, fellow
> racers, or just strangers interested in what we do. In fact, I've kept
> everyone on this EVDL abreast of the entire project with my constant
> postings, so I find it odd that Neon John would make the comment
'simply
> given'....oh well.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
Certainly was a poor choice of words - We all know Neon John can
choose the most unpoliticked words possible for his comments, but
maybe the general idea was the amount of money invested to make a
competitive racer. No-one wants to see slow-poke EVs at the dragstrip,
but it can be more exciting to see people make fast cars for little
money than to see these same cars become incrementally faster with the
investment of a large amount of money, whether an individual with deep
pockets or from sponsors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoting Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Since there are a number of people on the list without transmissions
where did you get a speedo to work without one. I see racing ones and
some GPS ones but they have a pretty high premium. Is there a run of
the mill speedo that I can use with a driveshaft that someone can
point me to?
It's pretty common in the motorcycle world to use bicycle speedos.
These have a
magnet that you attach to some rotating part and a hall effect sensor
that sends
signals to the display. If that's too cheesy for ya you can hook said hall
effect sensor up to a pic or other micro controller and display our
speed/mileage/etc on a nifty inexpensive LCD.
I've done three bikes with the bicycle speedo but for my current bike
I'm going
with the latter option. I picked up a 16x2 LCD display and a BS2 off ebay
pretty cheap and now I have a high-tech looking dash.
I plan on creating a Wiki for my project and releasing it under GPL or
Creative
Commons or some sort of license.
Mike
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 25, 2006, at 11:20 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
Those that voltage
spike early, and take control of the charger... are not the ones that
hold
the pack to low amps when the current has tapered to less than 2 amps.
I've seen that with Optimas... especially one that has been repeatedly
vented. I don't have any drive data but manually charging without regs
for the last 6 years means I have plenty of practice with my DMM at all
points in many charging cycles. The post tops are all covered with
little DMM probe dimples.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks you - seems like a good balance between the two.
Can anyone actually explain what the 62HP figure means? I keep getting
bitten by power figures with electrics. Is that max, constant or just an
example? What would this motor do at 170V and 1000amps? Explode? Break the
car's drive shafts?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 6:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
David Ankers wrote:
> Motor 9" ADC or Warp 9" (will a 9" motor fit in a Civic?)
Check out the Warp 9" Impulse:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_impulse.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice job on the fab work and the website man.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> First, thanks to all who provided great responses on this thread about
> proper charging for sealed lead acid batteries. It's been very
helpful for
> me to identify what I believe is the cause for the batteries getting
so far
> out of balance.
>
> I recall several months ago a discussion about proper PFC-20 DIP switch
> settings for this setup. Without the actual post to refer to, I remember
> thinking that I should have switches 1, 3 and 4 on. Here's the
summary of
> switch functions 1-4:
>
> 1 enables the timer when acceptance voltage is reached.
> 2 enables the timer when the charger is turned on.
> 3 enables the timer when the Regbus is regulating
> 4 enables the timer latch after the first reg hits thermal limit
>
> Seems reasonable to me, or at least it did when I set it up that
way. Now I
> believe that only switch 1 should be set. Since I can rely on the
regs to
> communicate an over temperature or need to reduce current to the
charger,
> then the timer should start only after the acceptance voltage is
reached. At
> its present settings, the charger was timing out as soon as the first
> battery got "full" (at that current--yes, Joe and Rich, I see that same
> funky behavior), and the rest of the batteries never were getting a
decent
> charge.
>
> I plan on first giving the individual charge routine another go,
just to get
> the batteries closer. After that, I'll institute the "switch 1 only"
method
> to give the full pack a nice charge at about 370 volts. Next, a few
light
> cycles on the car, bringing the pack back to 370 V each time. Then,
if I can
> only take the next 72 hours off of work with no sleep or food, I'll
be able
> to finish the interior of the car, complete the hitch and wiring
harness and
> attach the generator to my utility trailer in time for Steve's EV
Rally on
> Saturday!
>
> Matt Graham
> 300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
> http://www.jouleinjected.com
> Hobe Sound, FL
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
>
> OK....
>
> I am seeing somthings that are kind of funny and DO support both out
views.
>
> First the Funny part.And some back ground for those that are not keeping
> track of "Project Mark3 on my Fiero"...
>
> Today's setup is... 15 3 to 4 year old Orbitals on my Zilla 2K
power 11
> inch Kostov power Fiero. Yea.. it can suck some amp!
> The act of sucking 1000 amps is NOT the best treatment for a battery
pack.
> No where's Lee does this show up in a Good things to do to your pack!!!
>
> 50 amp hour batteries... at 1000 amps is 20C... Kinda fun though!!!
>
> First data points.. all the Mk3 locked the Red LED on. So... they
ALL got
> sagged below 10 volts. Ok how far??? Until now.. I have not had a
clue, So I
> just hooked up the data cable to the front pack, And read the Min
volts on
> all 9 batteries, the range was 9.3 to 8.2 volts with only one resetting.
> What ??? reseting???? That's gotta be below 5 volts! OUch! 1000
amps pretty
> much flattened the Orbs!
> I bet my Low voltage setting on the Zilla kept the number from going any
> lower. Sheesh!! and these are the Mighty Orbs.
>
> First blush is.. one battery has to leave before I open it... The soft
> battery Is #8 up front. This is NOT the same battery that won't
charge up to
> 14 volts with 20 hours of equalization time. Funny What looks stiff on
> charge is not nessarily the one that drops of the face of the earth
under a
> hammering load. Hummm Strange.
>
> So.. I need to some how trap one of these events and show all us Listers
> what is happening.. Kinda interesting, Racers should fear this...I
will find
> the weak ones... hopefully without anymore lead vapor on the pant
legs...
> since I wear shorts... that is NOT a good thing.
>
> But for days... I have been letting the Regs and the charger just do
thier
> thing... Hot regs, Digital tracking and analog feed back to the
> charger...all that good stuff that I have been preaching about. It's
fun to
> watch the pack actually drift into equalization...hammer it.. and
then watch
> it repair it self. But... getting all the battereis to stay locked
into peak
> voltage and low current is infuriatingly hard to do. Those that voltage
> spike early, and take control of the charger... are not the ones
that hold
> the pack to low amps when the current has tapered to less than 2 amps.
> I had the Fiero off line for about 2 weeks waiting for motor work.
So the
> front and back pack were not being equalized, and Well the back pack
had not
> had any Reg of any kind on them, and the front have the first 9 Mk3 Regs
> that are seeing real action. Fact is the Mk3regs Do drink power...
LOTS more
> than the Mk2B, but that's because we have not added in the low power
sleep
> modes that we know we need to keep just this from happening. So the
front 9
> saw about 50 Ma loads for 10 days.. the back saw only thier self
discharge.
> In a week this amounted to quite a big difference. After the the first
> ride.. on charge I caught a 16.9 volt peak on one of the back batteries.
> DIVE! for the charger throttles! The back have to have regs. I got
that done
> between realatives and a nasty chest cold.. more drift.. more data
for the
> BMS to sort through.
>
> Clearly holding the pack to less than 2 amps.. for some is not
enough, for
> others, it's way too much. All do trend to my target of 14.8. some get
> close.. some have to have LOT of bypassing to hold them down to 14.8.
> Putting a Lid on all of them at 14.79 is a Safe mode... but it's not the
> total story. But it solves the rapid Killing that happens if you don't.
> Getting a perfect charge on all the batteries, only helps the longevity.
> Most of my efforts to this time have been to get them full and Not kill
> them. Now comes the subtilties in getting them all to a perfect charge.
>
> Keep in mind that the charger has a set voltage peak of 222 volts
This is
> exactly 14.8 volts for every one of the 15 Orbs. The Regs clamp every
> battery to not excede 14.8, and while they bypass they also trigger the
> charger to drop back power. This prevents the Regs from having blow
off the
> entire output of the charger. This is the Reg generated feedback to the
> charger. It makes for some really nice automated peak voltage
control for
> every battery. I find that rarley does the charger voltage
regulation go
> active, almost always there is a Reg that takes control before the total
> peak is reached.
>
>
> Lee I will keep the 14.22 volts in mind. But this number also needs
to be
> preceded with a temperature and a spec gravity of the Acid. The 14.22 is
> just too tight a number for all Lead Acid cells.
> Since I know that every flavor has slightly different Spec grav
numbers, and
> acid concetration and temp are the key factors in cell voltage.
> Understood is that you probably mean at 68 Deg F, 1.260 Spec gravity,
> flooded chemistry, and held there while watching for Gas bubbles.
Pure lead
> plates in mint condition.
>
>
> More later But this is a on going effort and the stories are pretty
good for
> us Ev Geeks.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:42 AM
> Subject: Re: Some problems to solve
>
>
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > > Ok Lee...
> > > I am not going to give a complete reply.. here I have a hungry
EV and
> > > a stack of MK3 Regs to errr... modify for today, and I have been
sick
> > > on my back for two days...
> >
> > Ouch! Sorry to hear about that. Make some time to rest up and recover.
> >
> > > Regs alone are not the complete answer, nor is a highly flexible
> > > data collection system.
> >
> > No; there are a whole progression of answers, depending on how
exacting
> > your questions are.
> >
> > If you don't want to murder your batteries today, a cheap simple
system
> > is good enough. Just a voltmeter so you can stop driving before
you pull
> > them too low, and a timer to shut off your charger before it boils the
> > batteries to death.
> >
> > If you don't want to murder them this year, you need something a
little
> > better. An E-meter so you have some idea how much charge is left,
and a
> > charger that follows some reasonable charging algorithm will do it.
> >
> > If you want the batteries to last several years, they'll need some
> > individual care; balancing, equalizing, etc. This is where these
simple
> > regulators fit in. They allow you to put slightly different amounts of
> > charge into each battery, to compensate for the growing differences
> > between them as they age. And, you need a smarter charger, since
battery
> > characteristics change with depth of discharge, temperature, age, etc.
> >
> > If you want your batteries to last as long as possible, you need even
> > more elaborate measurement and control systems. That's where something
> > like my Battery Balancer comes in.
> >
> > > Together you have a system that will prevent any over charge
> > > conditions anywhere on the entire string. This is the primary
> > > method that AGMs get Gassed and Vented from. Keep them all from
> > > gassing. Then keep the current flowing long enough for the weak
> > > to fill.
> >
> > Your theory is good; but this isn't quite what your regulators and
> > charger are doing in practice.
> >
> > The gassing threshold is 2.37v/cell, or 14.22v per 12v battery. Your
> > regulators are going well above this. So they gas the batteries.
> >
> > There is room for some gas inside the battery, and an AGM can (slowly)
> > recombine gas back into water. So, if you limit the current and time
> > (i.e. amphours) you put in when over 14.22v, it won't vent.
> >
> > But, your charging system does *not* control the actual current or
time
> > that each battery sees over 14.22v. It *limits* the current (by
> > bypassing some of the charging current around the battery). And the
> > charger *limit* the total charging time, but *not* the time any one
> > battery spends over the gassing threshold.
> >
> > > accurate current control on every battery is not needed.
> >
> > Well, that depends on your goals (see above). It's not "needed" if you
> > don't want to maximize battery life.
> >
> > > The act of hunting for a voltage point will vary the current and
time
> > > at that current all over the map. By putting a lid on volts you
> > > control the current. You get to the same place.
> >
> > Not quite. You can control current by controlling voltage. But you are
> > simply clamping the voltage, irrespective of what it does to current.
> >
> > > Yes the key is actual measurment... This is one of the reasons for
> > > doing the MK3 project, is to build a system that enables folks to
> > > see what really is happening in the pack.
> > >
> > > The hard part will be sorting through the data and then doing
> > > something about it. That's gonna take some code.
> >
> > Exactly!
> >
> > I'm suggesting that what you may find is that simply regulating
voltages
> > does not really control the amount of overcharge very well.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About the A123's impedance: amazing. Thanks to everyone for the verbose
responses! I actually did look at their site, but couldn't seem to find
any datasheets or such.
When might we be able to buy the A123 off-the-shelf, like that link I
posted? If these new cells are safer, wouldn't they be more likely to
be sold to normal customers like me?
Update:
I'm testing two of these right now (same as before), put in series with
my management system:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
They seem to be very out of whack. One's impedance is about twice as
much, higher than it should be. Under no load, they are within 10mV,
but go to 200mV unmatched with not even 500mA of charge or discharge
current. I measured about 2000mAh of capacity at 0.15C, to 90% DOD, so
they seem okay in that regard. Their serial numbers are not contiguous.
Let's say you bought a bunch of cheaper, unmatched cells, and put 10 or
so in parallel, and then 30 of those sets in series. Wouldn't putting a
random 10 in parallel average out the impedance difference?
If the voltage is held at 4.20V for all cells, but some have a different
ending current (60mA vs. 30mA), that doesn't put either above 100%, does
it? It seems that one would be at 98% and one at 99%. I see this doing
no harm to the pack, other than being not perfectly optimized. Do I
err?
> With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
> charge once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
David, how do you do a balancing charge (i.e., which voltages, currents,
times, etc.)?
- Arthur
> The winner? A123. E-one only has 10 wh/kg more, but a lot less power, and
> probably less cycle/calendar life. And then these are probably 1C ratings.
> A123 might catch up or exceed Wh/kg of moli cell at HIGH rates.
>
> About impedance, right from A123's site:
> Impedance growth is one of the top failure modes of high power batteries and
> a major cause of power fade over the life of the battery. Our batteries are
> uniquely engineered (pat. pending) so their internal resistance (impedance)
> will decrease with their use. This is the opposite effect to most Li Ion
> cells which experience a growth in their internal resistance as they are
> cycled at high rates or temperatures. This is a significant benefit in
> applications requiring long calendar life such as hybrid electric vehicles
> or in devices that simply must work such as medical devices or mission
> critical systems.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:02 PM 4/26/2006, you wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> This won't work on a car with a cut down flywheel or no tranny but why not
> reinstall the starter motor from the stock transmission. Reverse the
leads.
> Just use a 12v battery to power it.
The Ford starter I am somewhat familiar with just has one hot cable
going to it and the case is the ground. How do we make this spin the
other way?
Put the starter motor on the other side of ring gear. With the
transmission is gone there should be room.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've you've seen more than 5 minutes of this show, you'd realize it's
more of a goofy "entertainment" type show rather than any attempt to
show the actual process. I can tolerate about three seconds of the
"announcer" before I have to change the channel. American Chopper is a
prime example of the same thing -- more of a soap opera for arm-chair
hell's angels. Too much gab, not enough fab.
Tom Shay wrote:
When I watched the show I wondered what useful and accurate information
a viewer might get and concluded that there was almost none. I hope that
most viewers understood that the show like almost everything else on TV
was meant to be entertainment and not information.
Lawrence, I hope you can talk to the wannabe and correct some of his
misconceptions about EVs and conversions he gained from the show.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "SFEVA"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:54 AM
Subject: Thanks a lot Monster Garbage. I'll bet someone is happy.
This is a comment I got from an EV wannabe.
Hi Lawrence: I've been out of town and am just catching up on
various EV posts. I have the Monster Garage episode about the EV
conversion on tape if you or anyone may be interested. The ending
got cut off though. What happened on the third trial run? I'll save
this tape for reference. It has converted me against conversions.
Name excluded.
Lawrence Rhodes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw an email response from A123 that they will be setting up a
distribution network for cells fairly soon(once they get their stuff going
with Black and Decker, their primary customer now). And the DeWalt packs
should be available in a month or 2.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
About the A123's impedance: amazing. Thanks to everyone for the verbose
responses! I actually did look at their site, but couldn't seem to find
any datasheets or such.
When might we be able to buy the A123 off-the-shelf, like that link I
posted? If these new cells are safer, wouldn't they be more likely to
be sold to normal customers like me?
Update:
I'm testing two of these right now (same as before), put in series with
my management system:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
They seem to be very out of whack. One's impedance is about twice as
much, higher than it should be. Under no load, they are within 10mV,
but go to 200mV unmatched with not even 500mA of charge or discharge
current. I measured about 2000mAh of capacity at 0.15C, to 90% DOD, so
they seem okay in that regard. Their serial numbers are not contiguous.
Let's say you bought a bunch of cheaper, unmatched cells, and put 10 or
so in parallel, and then 30 of those sets in series. Wouldn't putting a
random 10 in parallel average out the impedance difference?
If the voltage is held at 4.20V for all cells, but some have a different
ending current (60mA vs. 30mA), that doesn't put either above 100%, does
it? It seems that one would be at 98% and one at 99%. I see this doing
no harm to the pack, other than being not perfectly optimized. Do I
err?
With v28s I'll often keep an eye on the balance and do a balancing
charge once every 5 cycles (they never seem to need it though).
David, how do you do a balancing charge (i.e., which voltages, currents,
times, etc.)?
- Arthur
The winner? A123. E-one only has 10 wh/kg more, but a lot less power, and
probably less cycle/calendar life. And then these are probably 1C
ratings.
A123 might catch up or exceed Wh/kg of moli cell at HIGH rates.
About impedance, right from A123's site:
Impedance growth is one of the top failure modes of high power batteries
and
a major cause of power fade over the life of the battery. Our batteries
are
uniquely engineered (pat. pending) so their internal resistance
(impedance)
will decrease with their use. This is the opposite effect to most Li Ion
cells which experience a growth in their internal resistance as they are
cycled at high rates or temperatures. This is a significant benefit in
applications requiring long calendar life such as hybrid electric
vehicles
or in devices that simply must work such as medical devices or mission
critical systems.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Datel has a line of similar meters; see
> <http://www.cd4power.com/data/meters/dpm_pdb1.pdf>
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Thanks Lee. This size will work fine. I'll likely just purchase one
> at a time at first and see how I like the result.
They are well made meters, but a little expensive. The LCD ones are the
lowest power. The LED versions have quite a nice display and are fairly
low power; much better than the cheap clones.
Most important for your application, they have some "2-wire" models that
can get both their power and measure the voltage of the same two wires.
> I see a 0.25 amp fast-acting fuse here:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103752&cp=&origkw=0.25a&kw=0.25a&parentPage=search
These are cheap knockoff AC fuses; I wouldn't use them for DC. I'd use
the Littelfuse 3AB or Bussman ABC instead; they are tested and rated to
safely interrupt up to 250vdc. The ABC-V has wire leads; this would save
having a fuseholder. (Littelfuse has a wire leaded version too, but I
don't recall its number.)
The fuses need to be able to safely interrupt the full DC pack voltage
because a worst-case failure would be if the wire from the most-positive
battery terminal happens to short to the wire from the most-negative
terminal!
> My thought is I'd actually use 2 fuses per battery/voltage monitor:
> a 20 amp inline fuse folder/fuse next to the battery, and the 0.25
> amp (or thereabouts) fuse just outside the battery box and prior to
> the wire length run to the dash area voltmeter.
I think you said you want to be able to charge a battery at 2 amps via
the same wires? If that's the case, I'd use a single 4 amp fuse; one per
tap in the series battery string, plus one for each end (thus 11 fuses
for a 10-battery string). Size the wire so it won't fail at 4 amps (i.e.
the fuse will blow before the wire melts). This way, your voltmeters
will tell you if a fuse is blown, and you don't have twice as many fuses
to wire up.
> Any other suggestions? I'm inclined to agree with Neon John that if
> it is done properly, it is safe.
It can be done properly. It's just that the average Joe would probably
NOT do it properly (no fuses, or some cheap automotive fuses that won't
actually protect you).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> The Ford starter I am somewhat familiar with just has one hot cable
> going to it and the case is the ground. How do we make this spin the
> other way?
All the starters I know are built to run only one way. Even if you
reversed them electrically, they have one-way clutches and other
mechanical features that only work for one direction of rotation.
To use one for reverse, I'd mount the starter on the opposite side of
the flywheel, so it's behind the motor instead of beside it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I was running late this morning and had just a minute to run through the list
threads when I saw the "simply given" statement and I thought uhhh "that's one
that John won't bite his lip on, lmao!! (John you did good) Being I've been
able to have a few tag-a-longs with John to know that things are not just given
to him. An example would be at the EXPO center, I walked out and saw a guy
unloading batteries, Wayland saw a "Hawker Van" He started out just BS'ing and
it lead to EV's and so on. John creates and manifests his own destiny. The
race with the cops, the Siamese8, the Dutchmans shaft, the Hawkers are all due
to his persistance in exciting people about his EV and then proceeds to push it
till it breaks (I don't think he was happy last year, lmao). I'd wager to bet
that for EVery "free" thing he's gotten there is probably a thousand hours in
EV sharing involved.
I'm not a NEDRA member, nor am I a racer, hell I'm not even an EV'er yet 8^(
but IMO (maybe a Rod quote 8^ ) rules are made to be broken or at least be
able to EVolve. It's such a new sport that there needs to be room to
experiment or there will be no advancement. To begin to put caps on now then
one would have to guess that they believe EV's are close to topping out at
which point rules begin to be needed. I'm not talking safety rules here either
so no hate mail 8^ P
As to everything being a checkbook war I believe that is only partially true.
If I built myself an 11" X4 for my one day racer for 500.00 how do you equate
that?? If Wayland can build a whole new Black Zombie (WZ EVil twin, lmao) for
what someone might pay for a top end AC motor / controller how do you relate
the two? What about new exotic batteries that will someday come?? Anyway I
just see this whole EV thing as so new and that there are so precious few of
you out there that this kind of stuff is allowed to divide you all 8^ (
I believe stagnation is death or at least close and if it's EV stagnation it
won't take long for this to be a short chapter in history. Here's to all of
you "not" letting that happen.
Just my two motor turns worth
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! MessengerÂ’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Ankers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks you - seems like a good
balance between the two.
Can anyone actually explain what the 62HP figure means? I keep getting
bitten by power figures with electrics. Is that max, constant or just an
example? What would this motor do at 170V and 1000amps? Explode? Break the
car's drive shafts?
Maybe all of the above, lmao. Actually Matt Graham is using a pair of 9" at
about those specs and seems to be doing fine.
Jim Husted
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min
with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gotta be realistic- getting kinetic energy for the car out of kinetic
energy from a flywheel would require quite an unrealistic flywheel/total
vehicle mass ratio for useful ranges. Of course the highest ratio
possible is if the flywheel is the whole vehicle weight.
I wonder what kind of rpm and linear velocity that thing has? I guess
knowing kwh/kg I could calculate the velocity.
The shaft and bearings holding a 1.5 ton flywheel probably isn't going
to handle road shocks too well. Now keep in mind that a damaged bearing
letting loose the flywheel, or the flywheel itself disintegrating, is
incredibly dangerous.
The other part which was amusing me in the inevitable gyroscopic
effects. The most innocuous installation would be vertical, still, if
you go over a speedbump and lift up the front of the car it'll pitch to
one side. I guess dual gyros, one clockwise one counterclockwise, would
eliminate this effect?
There probably something analagous to Peukert's effect. As the flywheel
slows down the generator may not be capable of as much peak power.
Danny
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
At 02:37 PM 4/26/2006, you wrote:
> Manufacturers:
> http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/flywheels.htm
> http://www.afstrinity.com/other-facts-faqs.html
>
The first entry lead to:
http://www.beaconpower.com/products/EnergyStorageSystems/docs/SmartEnergy25.pdf
which has specs for the 25kWh version - 3150lbs total weight = 8wh/lb
(less than any battery), and a 200kW peak = 64w/lb (less than AGMs),
but you'd have no Peukert factor to deal with and they're rated to
have *300,000 operating cycles*. Should fit public transit, or ganged
up as back-up for a stationary installation, but near-future EVs are
more likely to end up with a lithium pack.
Says the standby loss (power needed to keep it spinning?) is <2% of
rated power.
That is a high self discharge if it were used in a storage application
like an EV, this thing is intended to be plugged into the grid until
needed.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:02 PM 26/04/06 -0500, you wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> This won't work on a car with a cut down flywheel or no tranny but why not
> reinstall the starter motor from the stock transmission. Reverse the
leads.
> Just use a 12v battery to power it.
The Ford starter I am somewhat familiar with just has one hot cable
going to it and the case is the ground. How do we make this spin the
other way?
Mount it from the other side? No gearbox in the way....
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Charles,
Is it established that Toyota is actually coming out with a PHEV?
I think EV's are just seen as too complicated by Joe average. That's
why a $25k Phev is chosen over a $10k EV conversion.
My old boss and I did a spreadsheet of the cost of my motorcycle, EV
truck, 383cid plymouth wagon, and a Prius. Cost of ownership of a
Prius with the monthly payments is terrible over the first 5 years.
Not great over 10 years. The wagon was decent, the bike was
incredible. But I could put a new pack in the truck every year for far
less than the cost of a new Prius.
I have always believed that Hybrids are the educational bridge from
gas to electric.
Problem now is that raw battery materials are accelerating too. Maybe
horses are cheaper in the long run ;)
Mike
San Jose EAA President
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Way to go on the article!
>
> Here in Florida, we have found that having an active EAA chapter and
website
> helps, and then of course the escalating price of gasoline is the
main force
> and impetus that drives the public and the media to our website, who
then
> request interviews. In just the last week, we have had two newspaper
> articles, two TV news stories, and one radio interview of our members
> regarding EVs in Florida and the Florida EAA. And more requests for TV,
> radio, and newspaper interviews are now pouring in. Once the ball gets
> rolling, it just seems to feed on itself and gather up momentum and take
> off. Also, getting your EAA chapter organized to exhibit your EVs
at local
> events is another big publicity driver. We are displaying our EVs
at 4 big
> South Florida events over the course of two weeks (which we are in the
> middle of right now), speaking and showing off our EVs to hundreds
of people
> at each one.
>
> By the way, someone else said something about mentioning PHEVs at public
> events. I wholeheartedly agree with this and spend a lot of time
educating
> people about PHEVs at these public events. BEVs, at least in their
present
> form, even 120-mile rangers like mine and like Steve's, just don't
seem to
> do it for a lot of folks, no matter how hard you try to make all of
those
> persuasive arguments about how most Americans drive 30 miles a day
or less
> on average. I do know a few people who drive more, like my brother who
> drives 160 miles a day and now uses my 13 year old Honda Civic @ 40
mpg for
> that commute, which I gave him after I got our two RAV4-EVs,
doubling the
> economy of his 20mpg Volvo, which was burning a big hole in his
wallet and
> now sits unused in his driveway, but many people I talk to at these
public
> events claim likewise, that they are all driving 250 miles up to Tampa 3
> weekends a month and stuff like that. Everyone seems to think they
need a
> 300-mile range car, no matter what you tell them. I guess no one is
-- or
> wants to be -- an "average" American. What was it about that school
where
> all the children are above average? :-) So when I start telling these
> people about PHEVs and how plugging them in is optional and they can
still
> do their 250 mile trips every weekend and how Toyota is working on a
plug-in
> Prius for the 2008-2009 model year timeframe, they really get that
and feel
> that it would be perfect for them. No need for a second car, and
they can
> do most of their driving during the week in electric-only mode, *IF*
they
> choose to. But if they're too tired or lazy or forget to plug in at
night,
> no problem, they just pay for gasoline. The more expensive gasoline
> becomes, the more motivation they will have to remember to plug in
at night.
> My experience in talking with dozens of people about this is that
they seem
> to really like the idea of a PHEV because it is so flexible and
gives them
> choices and options in a single vehicle.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles Whalen
> Florida EAA
> www.floridaeaa.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:40 AM
> Subject: Thoughts on getting publicity
>
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Bill Dennis and I are famous :)
> >
> > http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3752061
> >
> > My first newspaper article in the local paper (not this one) came by
> > e-mailing the paper when I saw an article on gas prices (or something
> > related). I mentioned I had an electric car, and would be glad to be
> > interviewed for an article. They called a few days later.
> >
> > This article came about by a news correspondent seeing the first
article.
> >
> > I feel like it's important to not only drive around our EVs and let
> > neighbors/friends know, but try to get the word out further with
whatever
> > means are available. Although EVs in their current state aren't a
> > solution to everyone's travel needs, they present an alternative for
> > some - in their current state. This isn't a technology that's 5 or 10
> > years down the road...at least for those willing to convert their
own :)
> >
> > -Ryan
> >
>
--- End Message ---
