EV Digest 5421
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Fat batts
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV Charging station
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tour de Sol, Joliet.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Weight limits of micro micro cars
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Hi There! (Introduction)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Charging station, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Hybrid legalities
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Hybrid trailer setup with Zilla
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fat batts
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Fat batts
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: What is it with CVTs? Custom EV's
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 28, 2006, at 11:29 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Hi Nikki,
Welcome from warm California. I am actually Dutch, but moved
to Silicon Valley for my work.
With its light weight and small size, the Minor is an excellent
candidate for a conversion - if you do not mind the restoration...
(Usual advice is to find a rust-free and light body of a car
produced in high numbers for parts availability and with a
blown engine for minimal cost and start from there to have
many years of trouble-free driving before worrying about the rust)
Hi Cor! Yes, I know... but this is a bit of a love affair. I rescued
the car in 2002 and really want to keep her on the road. Since I'm a
firm believer that cars should be driven and not kept as "museum
exhibits" I'm making the only very insane choice of restoring AND
converting ;)
My friend used to have a Mini Cooper and wants to convert that,
but his recent marriage does not allow him to spend either
time or money on that project...
AC drive can be coupled to a gearbox, often you can leave out
the clutch because you can leave it in the same gear all the time.
I have a US Electricar with 50 kW AC motor, mated to the stock
gearbox which is locked in 2nd gear, giving me 72 MPH at redline
(9000 RPM) for my motor. It is not a good comparison though, as
this is a 5000 lbs truck....
Good to have different springs, that should help to get the
car back to the proper drive height after the conversion.
Feel free to ask questions - there are many people with
experience on this list!
Thanks for that. It's really nice to have had such a welcome on this
list. You're all so friendly and helpful! I have to say that several
of my co-minor Owners have been downright disparaging about my plans
and completely unhelpful. Of course, that's just served to fuel my
desire stronger!
When you're talking about locking the car in gear how exactly is that
achieved? I know that you don't need a clutch for that but do you
literally weld the gear selector in position or just remove the gear
lever after selecting the required gear. (And if so, wouldn't it be
possible to remove the surplus gears from the gearbox?)
Regards
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 28, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
Welcome, fellow UK dweller!
Thanks! Good to know there's other EV builders on here from the UK!
At the moment however I do need to
figure out exactly how much of the original car I can take out
without compromising the car's free-tax status and original
registration. As I understand it I need to retain a certain
percentage of the original components in order to prevent a
compulosry "re-registration" and SVA test.
I wouldn't worry too much unless you are grafting two cars together or
something like that. Simply removing or replacing drive train
components, suspension etc should not be a concern. The DFT website
says:
"Rebuilt vehicle is a vehicle to which the Secretary of State is
required to assign a Vehicle
Identification Number and which has been rebuilt using a replacement
chassis or body of the same design and construction as that of the
original vehicle and which - was supplied for the purpose without
having been previously used, or previously formed part of a
registered vehicle."
As long as you have the registration document for your vehicle, and it
matches the chassis number, you should be fine.
That is a real relief. I rang the DVLA last week but they were about
as useful as a chocolate teapot. ;)
If I
am forced to keep the gearbox from my car (can I do that with an AC
system?) then I was leaning toward a DC motor. Ideally though I want
to ditch it. Has anyone put an AC system in a car and ran it through
the standard 'box? Sorry to be so ignorant!
It depends on what you want to do. The car is fairly light, so a
suitable DC motor connected directly to the differential would
probably work fine (with a big enough controller).
Depending on the AC system, you may find that you don't have enough
torque to do this, so you might need either a special single ratio
reduction gearbox, belt drive or retain the original gearbox. Since
you are paying for higher efficiency in the AC system, you should also
try to run it at its most efficient speeds (usually faster than direct
drive).
Keeping the gearbox in either situation is usually easier to engineer.
But you will probably then find that the gearbox is the loudest part
of the car!
Yes, but at least I'll keep the wonderful noise the gearbox makes!
(The minor gearbox has no syncromesh on first!) :)
What's your range requirement?
The more the better really. I'd be hoping to get upwards of 50 miles.
150 would be great (but of course only possible with the expensive
batteries!)
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seriously, I have no idea how they'd *gain* weight, unless someone has
added water to them. Otherwise, one has to guess that they were heavier
when new.
Well, I've had no access while they were in the car. I'm going to drop
the whole pack tomorrow (it's easier now that I have the routine down)
and I'll weigh some of the batteries at random.
What's really weird is that I kept four batteries as spares from the
original set that I ordered two years ago and shelved them. Three were
recently tested and stuck in the car to replace the three that were
going to 6 volts, and the fourth accidentally got used in my kid's power
wheels (and is also down to 10 volts and a total basket case; I normally
put dud batteries in there). The fourth is the one that is close in
weight to the three new ones, so I'd assume the others are as well.
Really weird. Has anyone ever weighed Hawkers like this?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 28, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
Hi Nikki, welcome to Canada (I am on the west coast). A couple of
things
come to mind about your upcoming conversion.
1. your car will have to pass a provincial inspection for out-of
province
vehicle. If at all possible, try to get this **before** you convert
the
vehicle. It will make the process easier. I did this with my New
Beetle,
others in Canada have done the same. Maybe, do the full restore,
get the
ICE working (enough), get registration, then convert to electric?
HI Don!
Yes, I'm a bit concerned about this. Of course, the extra hassle of
doing this is really dissuading me as the engine in my car is pretty
much cooked. I'd be having to buy a lot of ICE parts just to get the
thing running again... and of course I'd then have to replace things
like the radiator etc and re-fit. I was hoping the car would be more
easily converted as a 'blank canvas'. Add to that the actual garage
space (as any Brit will tell you, our garages are stupidly small,
especially in new-build houses like ours. We have a '93 Honda
Prelude which only *just* fits in the garage...
Do you think it's going to be impossible to convert the car prior to
import? Is it hard to import EVs to Canada? Might there be some
useful site for Ontario which I could use to find out more?
2. I presume the minor uses the A series engine, like the Minis?
But is it
mounted transversely like the mini (front wheel drive) or mounted
longitudinally like a Sprite (rear wheel drive)? The difference
being, if
mounted transversely, the engine and the gearbox share the same oil
sump and
the same oil pump (which may or may not be required). You will
need to a
little extra work to block off the gaping hole to the transmission and
either chain or use special drop gears the electric motor to the
gearbox.
Luckily for me Don, Sir Alec Issigonis (the designer of the minor AND
the mini) wanted the minor to have a flat-four engine driving the
rear wheels (interestingly with independent rear suspension too!)
Sadly, with it being 1948 when the car was launched Lord Nuffield of
Morris Motors vetoed the development of a new engine and the cars
were shipped with the side-valve unit used in several contemporary
cars of the time. This was later changed to the A series, which is
mounted longitudinally. The blessing in disguise however is that the
engine bay's design remained the same throughout and, being
originally designed to use a flat-four, has almost acres of space to
either side of the engine.
So, if I do keep the gearbox I should be able to mount the motor
quite easily to the bell-housing and use the motor in the same
approximate place as the engine was, but with enough spare room for
extra batteries, luggage space, or spare wheel as determined by the
weight calculations when I've figured out what battery and motor and
controller to go for!
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fowler wrote:
> Just a quick question about counter-rotating flywheels.
> Do they truly cancel each other's gyro forces?
>
> I'm thinking of the experiment where you sit on a swivel chair
> holding a spinning bike wheel by the axle. If you try to twist the
> wheel, it is hard to do, and ends up spinning you on the chair.
> (see http://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/bicycle_wheel_gyro.html)
>
> Now if there were two bike wheels on the axle spinning in opposite
> directions, I imagine that it would still be difficult to twist the
> wheels by the axle, though I would remain stationary on the chair.
>
> Or do the opposing forces cancel each other to the point that it takes
> no more effort than twisting a stationary bike wheel?
The two counter-rotating wheels do indeed cancel the torque that would
otherwise rotate you in the chair. However, there is still a large side
load in the wheel bearings, and a strong bending moment in the axles of
those two wheels. So, rotating the axle while the wheels are spinning
will still need more work, to overcome the extra flexing of the axle and
bending of the wheels.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well spotted, Evan :)
It's actually a common conversion to use the 1275 Sprite engine in a
minor. Of course, everything from a V8 to the K series engine used in
MGTFs has been shoehorned into a Minor. Someone even once did a
Cosworth conversion. I once owned a K series minor but lusted after
something a bit more environmentally friendly!
http://aminorjourney.co.uk/Photos/CarrieHebe/ For those of you who
don't mind the thought of a Morris Minor doing 130! I never went that
fast, but the previous owner said he had. (It's the stationwagon
one) I don't own it any more and don't want that kind of performance
from my EV conversion so I'm not into zombie territory! ;)
On Apr 28, 2006, at 1:37 PM, Evan Tuer wrote:
On 4/28/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
2. I presume the minor uses the A series engine, like the Minis?
But is it
mounted transversely like the mini (front wheel drive) or mounted
longitudaly like a Sprite (rear wheel drive)?
You can see from the photos that it's RWD.
This page has more specifications:
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z9572/Morris_Minor%201000/
default.aspx
Apparently it can do 73mph with a 25kW peak engine.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Dump charging with a bank of ultra caps? Can you imagine a converted
> gas station with a setup like this? Is it possible? Is it feasible?
I don't think it is feasible, because ultracaps don't hold even 1% of
the energy of good batteries. The ultracapacitor bank will be much
larger than the entire car, and cost millions of dollars.
Economics says a dump charging station would probably have a big rack of
industrial fork lift type batteries and chargers. They hold enough
energy to dump-charge many cars in a row. They would last a couple
decades, and their size and weight is no problem in a stationary
application like this.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:55 AM
Subject: Tour de Sol
> I live in Central NY less than 2 hour drive to Saratoga. I plan on
attending this year's Tour de Sol on Saturday, May 14 If anyone has any
additional info or incentives (discount tickets?) please contact me off
list. Thanks!
> I'm a active member of local car clubs, eaaev and am restoring two ev's
(1983 Bradley GTElectric & 1980 Jet Electravan)
> Don Davidson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Hi Don an' EVerybody;
Too bad the RACES at Joliet are the same Weakend, as the T de S. I'll be
pulling by the T de S for the Joliet thing.
My two axles worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the informative reply.
The car is set for 3 mm toe in. Brakes are nice and loose and the car has a
small frontal area, but boxy shape. The tyres at the moment are not bulging
at all and has the appearance of little deformation. I might experiment
pumping them up to 50 psi, and see how it goes.
True, about the addition of weight of batteries, however, my car is not
really designed to handle large loads for day on end, unlike your ute.
From calcs, the max theoretical range is 25 km's.
I did 20km tonight, with a few hills, and it just made it with probably
3km's left to spare. The return journey was carrying another passenger. This
is think is to total discharge, well until the car cannot move which i have
experienced before. Theoretically, close to 80 Ahr i pulled out from a 20km
trip.
Roughly about 60% DOD so about the limit of the batteries.
If i change to true deep cycles, they will go the limit to 80% DOD i hope.
I'll have to go for the T605 to get me close to 50km theoretical range.
Thats an addition of 130kg.
Cheers
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Weight limits of micro micro cars
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 03:29:13 -0700
Hi Robert,
I doubt if I need to say this, but check the toe-in of the wheels,
for max range it should be zero or close to zero, whatever the factory
spec allows closest to zero to reduce drag.
My tires are max 35 PSI spec but I have them at 50 PSI now as an EV
will never do a long journey, running the wheels hot and the flex
of the sidewall was too much at 35 PSI.
In a sharp curve I almost tore the front tires off the rim because
the pressure was so low (riding ON the sidewall, scuff marks and
chunks of rubber disappeared from the tire near the rim.
I could have taken that corner a little slower....
Range comes from pack capacity and energy per mile (resistance).
So if you cannot lower resistance, then only capacity increase can
bring you further (or a recharge).
>From what you mention, I think a larger pack should not be a problem
unless you really want to load the car full of people and luggage.
Note that we can routinely have 3 passengers and luggage in the car,
adding up to 800-900 lbs (400kg) to the normal weight but we are
concerned about adding 100 kg of batteries....
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Chew
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 2:35 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Weight limits of micro micro cars
Hahaha Cheers mate!
Upgrading the suspension is one thing. But the structural integrity is
another. Its ok to stop at the moment with un powered all four drum brakes
on the vehicle.
But i just feel so sorry for the little suspension arms. Seriously the
front
suspension set up looks like its off a giant go kart. Rear ones look
strong.
And the gears are so tiny. I want further range, i got LRR pumped up tires
to 44psi.
They are rated to 45psi, Can i pump it further.
I don't know what else i could do to improve range other than increase the
capacity of my battery pack.
50kms i'll be happy with. That would make it damn practical..
Cheers
>From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: RE: Weight limits of micro micro cars
>Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 01:48:00 -0700
>
>Hi Robert,
>
>I am at the other end of the spectrum:
>Starting with a 1994 Chevrolet S-10, US Electricar built
>a factory conversion that weighed about 4800 lbs.
>The original S-10 specs are Curb weight 2874 for the regular cab
>long bed that was used for this conversion and standard payload
>1715 lbs, so max weight would be 4589 lbs.
>Of course the engine, exhaust, gas tank and other parts are
>taken out of this car but the motor, controller, steering and
>brake pumps and the new battery box add a lot of weight back in.
>Since I upgraded my batteries, I have now an over 1800 lbs pack
>so my guesstimate is that I am close to 5000 lbs, clearly over the
>original max weight, but US Electricar already upgraded the
>suspension to take extra load (added a spring leaf).
>
>I have had no surprises, other than that it can be hard to stop
>such a heavy car on wet streets without ABS - jumping on the
>brakes when the light turned yellow in front of me and all I
>did was slide towards the line, so I decided to run the
>dark orange light.... No point in stopping in the middle of
>an intersection.
>
>Cor van de Water
>Systems Architect
>Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
>Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Behalf Of Robert Chew
>Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:25 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Weight limits of micro micro cars
>
>
>HI all,
>
>I have been driving my converted Fiat 126 (bambino) (FSM Niki) for about
1
>month now. It keeps up with traffic no problems and totally screams when
>going downhill with about 120 km/hr tail wind. YEAH!
>
>Now, the range is an issue. As i am using SCS225 and only 6 of them, i am
>getting 25 km/hr range (stop and start driving).
>
>I would like to in the very near future upgrade my battery pack and use
the
>current batts for a stand alond system or for another small ev project.
>
>Besides the suspension, i am not sure of how much weight the car can
handle
>safely.
>There is the GVM of 790kg. My car weighs 650kg.
>There is a guy over here in Sydney that converted Daihatsu Mira's and he
>used a 72 volt system with 12 - 6 volt trojan's, something like 400kg
>battery weight.
>
>The cars weigh pretty much the same as mine in petrol form , but my pack
>only weighs 180kg's
>
>I can upgrade suspension---no prob, but i am afraid that the little
>components in the car's steering and suspension arms will not take the
>extra
>
>weight of say a 250kg pack.
>
>Has anyone ever exceeded their GVM and had no probs with their car in
terms
>of reliablity and handling. Has anyone every broken components while
>exceeding their GVM??
>
>I think if my car had a useable range of 45km, it would put the vehicle
>into
>
>a whole new level and increase the practicality of it.
>
>Cheers
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>15,000 Velocity Points Velocity NAB Credit Card
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nikki, unfortunately I do not have any experience or knowledge of those
who have brought in an EV from out of country into Ontario. I suggest
checking out the evalbum and emailing a few canucks to see if they have any
advice. I do not think it is impossible, it is just a way to make the
process smoother. Now that I understand you situation a little better, I
wouldn't bother spending the money on getting the ice working either. Maybe
check minimania forums on how to bring a UK car into Ontario - that happens
a lot. BTW each province is a little different, so what applies in BC or
Alberta may not apply to Ontario.
I purchased a 68 Mini a few years back. It was an out of province vehicle
(like the New Beetle). The inspection was done at a local certified garage.
They check everything from safety equipment to rust, to structural
soundness, to suspension - and **must** have seatbelts (regardless of year).
It is pretty thorough, however it can vary from shop to shop. If it is the
same in Ontario, call around, see if you can find a shop that is EV
friendly. BTW Mechanics here are just like anywhere, I am sad to say. Some
like to take advantage of women, or for the smart ones, like yourself, get
defensive and bitter. I am sure you have seen this crap before...
A real key thing to keep in mind is not to exceed the GVWR of the vehicle,
nor modify the body (if it is unibody like the mini). If you exceed the
GVWR (allowing 75kg for each set of seatbelts) they will refuse
registration. If you modify the uni-body or the frame, you will have to have
a mechanical engineer certify the modifications. One trick is to only have
a few batteries, enough to have it work at moderate speed, then get the
registration. Once you have registration, then add more batteries -
however, if you get in an accident, the insurance company may refuse
coverage if they determine the car had too much weight.
A helpful thing in passing the EV registration **may** be adhering to Motor
Vehicle standard S305:
- keep high voltage out of the cabin (even in case of an accident)
- keep electrolyte from spilling into the cabin in case of an
accident
Happy to hear about the mounting of the engine - that will sure make the
conversion much more straight forward.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of nikki
Sent: April 28, 2006 7:08 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
On Apr 28, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
> Hi Nikki, welcome to Canada (I am on the west coast). A couple of
> things
> come to mind about your upcoming conversion.
>
> 1. your car will have to pass a provincial inspection for out-of
> province vehicle. If at all possible, try to get this **before** you
> convert the vehicle. It will make the process easier. I did this with
> my New Beetle, others in Canada have done the same. Maybe, do the
> full restore, get the ICE working (enough), get registration, then
> convert to electric?
HI Don!
Yes, I'm a bit concerned about this. Of course, the extra hassle of doing
this is really dissuading me as the engine in my car is pretty much cooked.
I'd be having to buy a lot of ICE parts just to get the thing running
again... and of course I'd then have to replace things like the radiator etc
and re-fit. I was hoping the car would be more easily converted as a 'blank
canvas'. Add to that the actual garage space (as any Brit will tell you,
our garages are stupidly small, especially in new-build houses like ours.
We have a '93 Honda Prelude which only *just* fits in the garage...
Do you think it's going to be impossible to convert the car prior to import?
Is it hard to import EVs to Canada? Might there be some useful site for
Ontario which I could use to find out more?
>
> 2. I presume the minor uses the A series engine, like the Minis?
> But is it
> mounted transversely like the mini (front wheel drive) or mounted
> longitudinally like a Sprite (rear wheel drive)? The difference
> being, if mounted transversely, the engine and the gearbox share the
> same oil sump and the same oil pump (which may or may not be
> required). You will need to a little extra work to block off the
> gaping hole to the transmission and either chain or use special drop
> gears the electric motor to the gearbox.
>
Luckily for me Don, Sir Alec Issigonis (the designer of the minor AND the
mini) wanted the minor to have a flat-four engine driving the rear wheels
(interestingly with independent rear suspension too!)
Sadly, with it being 1948 when the car was launched Lord Nuffield of Morris
Motors vetoed the development of a new engine and the cars were shipped with
the side-valve unit used in several contemporary cars of the time. This was
later changed to the A series, which is mounted longitudinally. The blessing
in disguise however is that the engine bay's design remained the same
throughout and, being originally designed to use a flat-four, has almost
acres of space to either side of the engine.
So, if I do keep the gearbox I should be able to mount the motor quite
easily to the bell-housing and use the motor in the same approximate place
as the engine was, but with enough spare room for extra batteries, luggage
space, or spare wheel as determined by the weight calculations when I've
figured out what battery and motor and controller to go for!
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: EV Charging station
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Dump charging with a bank of ultra caps? Can you imagine a converted
> > gas station with a setup like this? Is it possible? Is it feasible?
>
> I don't think it is feasible, because ultracaps don't hold even 1% of
> the energy of good batteries. The ultracapacitor bank will be much
> larger than the entire car, and cost millions of dollars.
>
> Economics says a dump charging station would probably have a big rack of
> industrial fork lift type batteries and chargers. They hold enough
> energy to dump-charge many cars in a row. They would last a couple
> decades, and their size and weight is no problem in a stationary
> application like this.
> --
Howbout a WW-2 type Submarine batterey? They stand about 6 foot tall,
at 2 volts, each. Plenty of amps. Maybe the battery builders have the
tooling, still? I think Trojan made Sub batteries, at one time?? Charge them
on off peak times, sell power back to Con Ed if they are short?
At the Earth day hoohah I was talking withthe Dem. Guy for, running for
Gov Dan Malloy, I showed him the car and chatted him up a bit. He was WAY
cool about EV's I asked about plugs along the interstates. He liked the
idea. Hope he remembers me AFTER he gets elected<g>!??If we have outlets can
dump charge stations be far behind? The damn Chicken and Egg thing, again.
My two sub cells worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/28/06, nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Nikki,
Yes, but at least I'll keep the wonderful noise the gearbox makes!
(The minor gearbox has no syncromesh on first!) :)
Fair enough - keeping the gearbox gives you a few more options anyway,
which is good as you don't have a large selection of cheap components
to work with as you would in the US.
>
> What's your range requirement?
The more the better really. I'd be hoping to get upwards of 50 miles.
150 would be great (but of course only possible with the expensive
batteries!)
Well, with lead-acid batteries, it's not looking hopeful.
Have a try with this calculator:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/evcalc.html
The speed that you want to drive at makes a big difference, as I'm
sure you know. For example if you want to travel 50 miles AT 70mph,
you'd need something like 18kWh on board - that's at least 800kg worth
of lead-acid, which is clearly not a good idea in a car that only
weighs 700kg to start with!
So, either you're destined to use one of the advanced battery
chemistries (the Zebra battery could possibly do what you want), or
reduce your speed and range expectations.
Have fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Well there might be some issues in claiming tax incentives...
The federal credits require that it be a new vehicle, not a used one.
You can deal with this if necessary by re-titling your vehicle as "new"
(like U.S. Electricar retitling my Renault LeCar as a "Lectric
Leopard").
> As far as I know the only fuel source currently forbidden to home
> converters is Propane (that's nation wide).
That's interesting. I hadn't heard that. Propane is easy and available
to use for a motor vehicle fuel (widely used in industrial vehicles).
Why would there be a law banning it for on-road use?
> I think there is one state (Minnisota?) that requires converters take a
> class or be licensed or something.
Not Minnesota; I think it's Kansas.
> Other than that, knock yourself out. I'd reccomend keeping detailed
> records, photos, maintain receipts, etc. for when you go to register
> the vehicle.
Also, keep in mind that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than for
permission. If you ask first, the bureaucrats and lawyers will almost
certainly say "no". Built it first. THEN do whatever you have to do to
get it licensed! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's your battery budget?
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Hi There! (Introduction)
The more the better really. I'd be hoping to get upwards of 50 miles.
150 would be great (but of course only possible with the expensive
batteries!)
Nikki
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> as useful as a chocolate teapot
Welcome Nikki
I learn new things every day on this list, EV related or not. I love that
phrase, I hope you don't
mind if I use it "over here."
Dave Cover
PS My conversion is in about the same state as yours, hopefully we'll both be
driving electrically
soon.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
I think my batteries are finally starting to play nice with each other, so
with the basic charging issue resolved, I'm moving on to completing the
hybrid trailer setup so that I can make it up to the EV Rally tomorrow in
Fort Pierce (about 45 miles away). Since I don't have a tow vehicle, the
best way for me to get the EV there and to other medium distance locations
(40-100 miles or so) is to run the generator on the trailer and tow it
behind the Nissan.
Recently, though, I've encountered a situation which raises a concern, but
might be resolved easily. Specifically, when I'm charging normally in the
garage, the Zilla will not engage the main contactor. No, I am not using the
"AC Plug In" connection. The Zilla throws error code 1131 "Shorted/Loaded
Controller during precharge". The apparent solution would be to first
precharge the Zilla and then begin charging, but 3AM is a terrible time to
try interesting things with expensive EV hardware, so I wanted to run it by
the list today and see if anyone has already done this.
Does this sound reasonable? Are there any other concerns with this setup?
Thanks!
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com <http://www.jouleinjected.com>
Hobe Sound, FL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
I read what you wrote and I don't see how you came to that conclusion.
There are a few variables at work.
Battery production tolerances. The bigger the battery the bigger the
potential drift from nominal weight.
Your scale is rounding as well. 22.90 could be a tenth lower, even two
tenths lower. Depends on the rounding algorythm.
Lets pick your 22.0 and 22.90 batts. They could be 22.1 and 22.8.
That's .7 oz diff. That's not even 20 grams! That could be the
difference in the case molding process. 20 grams could easily be the
lead. The total difference worse case is still about 1 oz on a 23lb
battery. That's a .002% delta. 1% delta is 3.68 oz or just over 100
grams.
The other factor is if there is a breeze of any magnatude and if the
scale is sitting on a completely stable platform and that it's level.
They adds to variances in output.
Are they the same date code?
Too many variables in my mind to arrive at any conclusion.
I'd still add water and cycle them.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ok, this is odd. So I went out and bought a 35lb postal scale to weigh
> some of the hawkers and see how much water they have lost. Scale has a
> .2oz resolution.
>
> First I tested 3 new Hakwer 26ah batteries out of the box.
21.90,21.90,21.95
>
> Then I tested two of the batteries from my Prizm (the ones that blew to
> 6 volts). 22.7oz, 22.9oz.
>
> Why would they be heavier? Same type/model of battery. As a condition
> check I weighed one that I never put in the car but had the same
vintage
> (I got spares). 22.0
>
> Any idea why the battery would weigh more after 2 years operation?
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nikki,
With such a light and fairly low drag car, the more efficient you make
it, the less of a pack you'll need for good range. If you can do
without the gearbox somehow, it's just less weight and drivetrain drag
to accelerate. The AC system probably has regen, there's another 5-20%
range. Not to mention your brake pads will last vastly longer. If it's
a high enough voltage system then the amps required by the batterys is
far lower, thus you have an easier time finding a battery that can
supply the current. I'm not sure how you'd connect the motor to the
rear axle directly, and with sufficent reduction, but less is more in
EV's. I tried the link but it did not work here at the job.
Good Luck,
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone!
>
> I thought it good practice to introduce myself as I've finally
> managed to subscribe to the EV list.
>
> My name is Nikki and I'm currently living in Bristol, UK. I'm a
> professional musician who tries to be ecologically sound in all I do.
> I've always been a bit of a "do it yourself" girl and have wanted to
> own an EV car for a long time. After owning a very unecologically
> sound hot rod I'm wanting to make up a bit with a very clean car!
>
> I'm planning the conversion of my 1965 Morris Minor 2-door sedan,
> which I am currently restoring.
>
> At the moment the car has been stripped of a large proportion of her
> mechanical components. The great thing about working from home for me
> is that I can use the time most people would spend commuting to work
> on my car's conversion.
>
> Once stripped I'm going to replace any of the rusted floor panels
> with stock replacements and then set about fabricating the specialist
> parts. At the moment I'm torn between an AC system using direct drive
> to the rear wheels (negating the need for conventional transmission
> and consequently decreasing the weight) or sticking with a cheaper DC
> motor mated to the car's original but rebuilt gearbox.
>
> I'd appreciate any words of wisdom anyone would like to offer. Since
> the project is a restoration in addition to a conversion I'm keen to
> do something which will provide me with the greatest range rather
> than the cheapest cost. (A restoration is of course a large
> undertaking and allows me to budget much better for more expensive
> parts than a standard conversion I feel). I'm planning to include
> NiMh or NiCad batteries rather than lead acid too, since we may be
> moving to Ontario and I would like the car to still work well in cold
> weather!
>
> I would love to hear people's thoughts on this. The car, in her stock
> form, is a tad over 1600lbs kerbweight. The front end of the car has
> an unbelievable amount of space under the hood. Okay, so I won't be
> able to put everything under there if I want to keep weight
> distribution correct, but it does at least allow me the luxury of
> moving my trunk from front to back if the rather small trunk is taken
> up with batteries!
>
> In the meantime, feel free to visit the 'garagecam'. (http://
> www.aminorjourney.co.uk/webcam.jpg) It's updated every few minutes
> throughout the day and I hope will serve to keep me on track as
> several of my friends are all ready nagging at me when they don't see
> any progress on the car for a few days!
>
> Regards
>
> Nikki
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Battery production tolerances. The bigger the battery the bigger the
potential drift from nominal weight.
True, but odd that the first three batteries came in within .1oz of each
other.
Your scale is rounding as well. 22.90 could be a tenth lower, even two
tenths lower. Depends on the rounding algorythm.
The scale has an accuracy of .2 oz. This is a postal scale and needs to
be kinda accurate. Thus it could be off by up to .4 ounces between
batteries, but a pound is way outside the average.
Lets pick your 22.0 and 22.90 batts. They could be 22.1 and 22.8.
That's .7 oz diff. That's not even 20 grams! That could be the
difference in the case molding process. 20 grams could easily be the
lead. The total difference worse case is still about 1 oz on a 23lb
battery. That's a .002% delta. 1% delta is 3.68 oz or just over 100
grams.
22.0 is 22 pounds, not ounces. The difference between a 22lb battery and
a 22 pound, 8 ounce battery is 8 ounces.
The other factor is if there is a breeze of any magnatude and if the
scale is sitting on a completely stable platform and that it's level.
They adds to variances in output.
Maybe, but not a 1 pound out of 21 lb.
Are they the same date code?
The new ones are all same date code. The old one is the same date code
as the ones in the car, but sat on a shelf.
I'd still add water and cycle them.
Erm. I'm thinking about that. I'd rather have proof that they are
getting dry before changing the water levels.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: What is it with CVTs?
Hi Lee an' All;
Snipabit
> Bob McKee is a professional race car chassis builder. He built a series
> of EVs (Sundancer, Mk16 Commuter, etc.) which were superb performers.
> These cars could go over 60 mph and over 100 miles on a charge with just
> twelve 6v golf cart batteries. He did careful experiments with different
> drive trains in an effort to measure exactly what the consequences were.
> Now theres a guy I havent heard about much anymore. Is he still doing
his stuff? I remember the Sundancer. It was a purpose built EV. It was
running around in the 70's with the speed and range you speak of. What EVer
happened to Bob's stuff? Seems like a Sundancer was the right ticket,
rasther than a Led Sled ev?!
> He tried series, shunt, sepex, and PM motors; contactor and PWM
> controllers; and fixed ratio differential, 2-speed transaxle, and
> continuously variable transaxle (twin v-belts with variable speed
> pulleys, driving each back wheel separately to replace transmission and
> differential).
>
That's the one I remember the snowmobile belt drive setup. After all,
this was the 70's and solid state stuff was pretty crappy, he went with
contacters. I see alot of kinship with Jerry Dycus'es Freedom EV. Lite,
purpose built thing like the Sundancer, with our light years ahead
inprovments in electronics we just didn't have back then. The Electric Fuel
Propulsion of Detroit, Bob Aronson's outfit. We did a great conversion of a
cute Swedish Kalmar Mail truck. It came with the DAF setup, twin belt drive.
The Dutch were past masters of the art with the Veriomatic, I think they
called it? Drive on the DAF auto.I can feel Cor nodding here, he musta seen
them in Netherlands? We had a seven point contacter controller with the
veriomatic, and it did great! Ran it in the '71 Clean Air Car race, Bos to
Pasadina. Only issue was the cooling of the Baker 11" frame motor. we
through all our solder out of the comm to arm cables. GE in Erie or was it
Schenedidtidy, fixed it. Tig welded the damn coils in! End of problem. The
Baker had NO cooling just a solid strap arounf the brush axccess ports!. Now
Jim woulda put a fan on it and an open cover on it, and it woulda been a
happy motor. I lleft the covers off out of PA and it lived happily after. We
were the Stevens InstituteTech of Hoboken, team. The belt drive worked
great! Did it's thing all across the country.I think with a bit of tweeking
that little Kalmar would have been a great deliver the mail thing! I still
have a EFP Baker motor, I woulda used it in the Rabbit but it was too BIG to
clear the Rabbit's Half Shafts! It is a bigger around armature than the Warp
and ADC, so it must be a relative slow turner, but on say 300 volts I'll bet
it would screem, til it threw all the armature banding?
> His conclusion was that all had very similar efficiency, range, and
> performance. The differences between them were mainly "finesse" (how
> careful you were in building it, and how much money you spent on it).
>
Exactly> Why wern't we listining!? If Bob M. offered kits, or EVen plans?
This is why I ask if he is still around? Bob's point, and we as the EV
community back then,Hah! Community? Forgetaboutit! didn't hear this man. He
was light years away ahead of us with the road locomotives EFP was building,
4200 lb,Remault conversions! Roland has a surviving EFP vehicle, historical
as hell, or what a 7k lb EV can do, still. In the Red Beastie tradition. Now
with the EFP 6 volt cobalt type cells the Beastie could go around the World
on one charge<g>! Impossable as there are no around the world roads. Yet.
But if ya watch the Discovery, I think, channel about building a road, and
RR across the Bearing streight, WHEEE! We could DRIVE to London or Paris,
from CT or NY! IF there is any gas by then?The RR thing would be more
practical, but the Russian Wide gage would mess things up, you would hafta
change the trucks(wheel assemblies) at their border. Like the Peking -Moscow
trains do now. China is Standard Gage, like USA and Europe. Korea, North an'
South. Gages, like standardizing charge plugs is a challange, still!
Back to the story:
> Contactor and PWM controllers had the same efficiency and range.
> Contactors were cheaper, but PWM's were smoother and more "drivable".
>
I think it is getting hard to beat electronic controllers price wise?
Altraxes can be had cheaper than buying s crate of contacters ya need to
build a contcter controller?
> The CVT worked best with the shunt and PM motors, which otherwise had
> trouble maintaining efficiency and high enough horsepower over a wide
> speed range.
> And the newer exhotic PM, s like an E tek, just didn't exist , back
then.
> Personally, I think the PM motor, contactor controller, and variable
> speed belt transmission setup looks the most promising for an
> inexpensive, efficient EV.
> -- I second that, Lee. A Veriomatic Freedom EV might be the way to go.
Jerry? Got yur ears on? Although I DO like the bullit proof Altrax stuff. We
still are in Altrax voltage range. 72, but Bob M. did miricles with 72 volts
YEARS ago! EVen though I like the contacter stuff, there is something
elegent and habit forming being wafted down the road through current
multiplication, with my Rapture(Rapter) controller. Had they, Damon
WATERPROOFED them, I would be on my stock, origional Factory smoke. I have
never smoked a Rapter, they just lie down and DIE on wet cold mournings when
I'm late for work!No cheery " Clunk" when the damn line switch is supposed
to pullin.!Shit! Gotta take the ICE mobile!
Biob Mc Kee was just away ahead of his time. Sigh!
My two belts worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
