EV Digest 5631
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: An Automotive Zoo, Horns for EV's
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC Motor torque calculations, choosing accessory motor
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Whr/mile
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Taurus EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Fun with Z-regs
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Taurus EV
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Taurus EV
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Another note from Jay, was 214 mph cycle
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) String equalization and lifetime, was: Taurus EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: An Automotive Zoo, Horns for EV's
by Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Looking for a quite vacuum pump
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV for a different customer.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Current Eliminator running?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Current Eliminator running?
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV for a different customer.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: DC Motor torque calculations
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: DC-DC wishlist
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DC-DC wishlist
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Daytona 675 specs?, was 214 mph MC
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:55 PM 7/07/06 -0500, you wrote:
This is the one that will be the "voice" of my EV. They call it the
"hammer" and it is a quad train horn. It is pretty light weight even
though it is all metal construction and I already have the compressor and
air tank for the air lift system. These things are LOUD! , not the toy
horns you see that run off 12 volts! I hooked this thing up and it about
took the rest of the hair off my head!
:-)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140005621750&ih=004&category=60203&ssPageName=STORE:PROMOBOX:NEWLIST
Why not?
Mark Ward
G'day Mark, and all
Why not? you ask, because the SUV driver is so busy looking for the train
that he runs over your Saab!
A friend had a set of truck horns in his little jappy econobox, and he had
a couple of close calls that he later worked out were due to the drivers'
that nearly 'collected' him were busy looking for the Mack (etc) that was
honking.
Better to have loud honking *car* horns and be safe, in my opinion and
practices.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(out of lurk mode)
There all kinds of ways to get your power steering going again in a EV, two
of my favorite ways is (1) use the electric power steering rack out of a
Prius for vehicles with power steering racks or (2) GM's new hybrid PU truck
uses a electric power steering pump, I don't know if it's a 12 volt or a 36
volt motor or PWM for that matter but I will put a note in my lunch box to
remind me to look it up next week. This GM power steering pump may help out
the people who want to play with automatic transmissions that needs to keep
the pressure up when the main motor isn't spinning.
I was surprised with how "quiet" this pump was and more surprised when it
increased in speed when a load was put on it, nice job GM.
Richard Furniss
is it suppose to smoke like that ?
Since Air conditioning and power steering are different types of loads,
perhaps we could somehow detect when power steering is needed and then
just release the AC clutch when the power steering pump is on. Some of
the newer pumps have a bypass and it can freewheel. A Variation in this
could turn the motor one direction for Power steering and turn the other
way for AC, a simple one way lets the power steering pump stop and the
typical AC clutch is wired tot he reversing contactor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I only have just over a month (~600 miles) on my 4000 lb truck. But I can say
the numbers look like this on average:
Up to 10 mile trips sees ~175Wh/mi
Between 10 to 20 mile trips ~285Wh/mi
Between 20 to 30 mile trips (only have a handful) ~350Wh/mi
These are under normal driving conditions, no hard accelerations to beat the
kid next to me to the next light, fairly flat,
stop-n-go on secondary streets 35-50 mph.
If I give a few demo rides to friends where I do about 10 miles with a bunch of
full power accelerations that seems to net me
about 400Wh/mi. If I did that for about 20 miles I'm sure it would be a
pitiful number. I haven't gone hard on them if I want to
make over 20 mile trips. The trends indicate I would come home at les than %50
S.O.C.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:51 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Whr/mile
>
>
> My 5000lb truck (AC vehicle) gets as good as 260 wh/mi. Normally runs
> 300-350 wh/mi.
>
> A friends 3400lb Saturn (AC vehicle) gets as good as 157 wh/mi.
> Normally runs 170-200 wh/mi.
>
> Both are round trip.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In my mind this is a good test of efficiency ....
> >
> > Are there any Whr/mile figures for EV trips? Round trips with
> > average
> > speed?
> >
> > Some e-bike folks are claiming 18-20 Whr/mile No pedaling - Round
> > trip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jul 2006 at 8:21, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Valence
> Badicheck
> Toyta
> Honda
> Ford
> Lee Hart Batbalencer
> Manzanita Micro Reg centered charging
In all fairness, five of these are effectively unavailable to, or unusable
for, the average EV hobbyist.
The Valance system is integrated with their (very expensive) batteries.
Badicheq doesn't seem to have a US presence (and they appear to be targeting
stationary power systems now). The next three systems are tightly
integrated with the control systems in the gas-only "hybrid" vehicles, and
are not really a useful choice for hobbyist EVs.
That leaves Lee's system and the Manzanita system.
Lee's balancer appears to have some advantages, the main ones being that
it's an active balancer rather than a shunt-loss system, meaning reasonable
efficiency; and it operates during both charge and discharge, supporting the
weakest module in the pack for longer range. However, it's a set of plans
or possibly a kit, not a product that one can buy. That limits its market
among hobbyists.
As I understand it, the Manzanita system's purpose is mainly to protect the
individual modules in the pack from overcharging, rather than to extend
range, though I suppose you could sort of stretch it that way. ;-) It's a
passive (shunt-loss) system, which somewhat reduces the vehicle's energy
efficiency. It operates only during charging. From what I can tell, the
charge algorithm "smarts" are all in the regulators, which act like simple
cycle dropping chargers. I don't know about temperature compensation. It
looks to be fairly easily adapted to various batteries and (AFAIK) chargers.
It's also currently and readily available to the hobbyist at what appears
to be an affordable price, and that counts for a lot.
There's one other system Rich didn't mention that might be useful for EV
hobbyists : Power Designers' Powercheq. I've always been skeptical about
these gadgets (which are pretty pricey at $55-60 per node), but some people
have reported good results from them.
There are a few other systems, including :
AC Propulsion's "BatOpt," which I think works only with their
integrated
charger
Edward Ang's "Vreg" from Air Lab, which Ed mentioned, but it isn't for
sale
to hobbyists
ATT-RD's "Libertron Co. Ltd." BMS, priced at $142 (in quantity 500!)
for
six 12v modules (speaks CANBus - may work only with their charger)
While I wouldn't say there are a half-dozen or more BMS-like systems
available to the EV hobbyist, there are at least two.
BTW, anybody know what happened to the BattPro? It was a passive regulator
similar in function to the original Rudman regulators. I seem to recall
that Mark Hanson designed that one, but I haven't seen any offered for many
years.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, so I changed my Hart Z-regs from 2 6.8 zeners to one 6.8 and one 6.2 per
battery. The results look good - the bulbs start to glow at about 13.85 volts
- the zeners seem to get warm a little bit earlier. That's just about right
for AGMs I figure. But as I was checking them out I noticed something odd.
The individual battery voltage variances were not linear. Battery 10 hit 13.9
sooner than battery 13, but at full bulk charge of 14.8 (average) B10 was
sitting at 14.7, B13 was at 15.0. When I backed it down to float voltage B10
was higher again. (I "calibrated" my visual assessment of the relative
brightness of the bulbs against voltmeter readings and found that my eyeballs
were pretty accurate, at least when comparing one bulb agains another.) This
seems to be a pattern with several of the batteries - quicker to 14 means
dimmer at 14.8, and vice-versa. I've taken them off float and let them sit in
the past and found that they came to rest at pretty equal
voltages. The disparity seems to happen above 14 volts. Anyone have any
ideas why?
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm running the PowerCheqs and so far they work as advertised. EVen though the
Rudmans do not shuttle power bi-directionally I
would have went with them for the interface to the charger, if they were
potted. The PowerCheqs are potted and they seem to be
doing their job. More interestingly however is the benefit any battery
balancing scheme would seem to offer the cycle life of
batteries. Here's a paper by Nasser H. Kutkut, Ph.D. of www.powerdesigners.com
that sold me on buying at least some sort of
charge conditioning other than a straight 2 stage charger. The benefits seem
to be more pronounced, or should I say the
detriments of charging series strings of batteries becomes more pronounced with
larger strings.
LIFE CYCLE TESTING OF SERIES BATTERY STRINGS WITH INDIVIDUAL BATTERY
EQUALIZERS. This paper is at
http://www.powerdesigners.com/pdf/PowerCheq%20Paper%20-%20Motive%20Power.pdf
PowerCheq data is at http://www.powerdesigners.com/powercheq.htm
Professor Kutkut's company also focuses on stationary and motive forklift
applications. They do offer Fast Charging (30KW) for
48V applications and higher voltage applications in <200V, <400V and <800 volt
models with the 6 KW HV series
http://www.powerdesigners.com/powercharge_hv_specs.htm . When I talked to him
while researching the PowerCheqs, he said he has
plans for high voltage automotive traction pack chargers similar to what us
EVers are looking for. IIRC he said they would be
announced this summer. I should call back and chat with him. Anyway, FWIW, he
also offers the PowerTrac modules with RS232 IrDA
interfaces. I have not researched them, or asked for prices. The best bang
for the buck seems to the Manzanita PFC- chargers and
some sort of balancer/shunt regulator modules. $55-$65 a pop seems like a lot
but if it would double the life of what would
otherwise be abused batteries then its cheaper in the long run.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> David Roden wrote:
> In all fairness, five of these are effectively unavailable to, or unusable
> for, the average EV hobbyist.
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> There's one other system Rich didn't mention that might be useful for EV
> hobbyists : Power Designers' Powercheq. I've always been skeptical about
> these gadgets (which are pretty pricey at $55-60 per node), but some people
> have reported good results from them.
>.
>.
>.
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:42 PM 7/7/2006, Michael Perry wrote:
Reading both your posts, I'm wondering if BMS has gotten a bad rep. Please
correct me if I'm wrong (I very well may be) but weren't those installed on
many of the Sparrows? I seem to recall seeing numerous posts about that
those could fix the probs w/ batts. Perhaps these weren't BMS units, but I
Sparrows did NOT come with any kind of BMS.
Various people (including me) have been testing different ones on
their Sparrows. (well, I was until everything burned up last night. sigh.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
I hope my response covered the issues well enough. I'm sure the
gossip was fun and occasionally exposes the bad guys, so it pays to
share info and be aware. I just hate to be caught up in the drama. I
already found out that when you lose your privacy, you lose your
freedom.
I will be happy to provide extensive references to a specific rep of
the group. Actually, Bill Dube has quizzed a couple of our guys we
sent up to him for training. They also answered questions openly
about me. Anyway, we have nothing to hide from the group, except our
(now exposed) ignorance. I don't want to be famous or the figurehead
again. I will be the advisor and provide support and funding. We
will disclose our Board of Directors and management at announcement
time. Until then, I'm the contact point for websites, research,
planning, and the group. As you stated, we are on a short fuse to
perform.
By the way. It was suggested that I join the group a few times, but
we felt we were still too ignorant to offer anything new and didn't
want to ask dumb questions (except one-on-one) with our hundreds of
phone calls. I applied to join the group exactly one day before you
exposed us and then Father Time called me (within minutes of your
post). We then corrected things immediately as they were brought to
our attention. Feel free to verify the moment of our application to
the group. You may also post this to the group.
Thanks again,
Jay
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Michaela Merz wrote:
The ability not only to provide enough DC for fans, lights, heater (in
other words - lots of juice ;) but also the usability as a battery charger
to keep the auxillary battery fresh and charged.
Define "lots of juice". That requirement seems to vary a lot from
conversion to conversion. Some have said in the past on this list that
300-Watt DC/DCs are more than enough power. I still disagree... and my
definition of a properly sized DC/DC would be something close to the
capacity of the alternator it replaced, if not more (since many of us
run 12-Volt power steering pumps, which in themselves are a huge load on
the system). Specifically, I feel that something in the 1kW range would
be very nice to have around. I've been working on this...
Also, when you say usability as a battery charger do you mean that it
needs to be able to run all the time at a constant output voltage (as
most DC/DCs now do) to keep the battery on a 'float' charge? Or are you
asking for a DC/DC that will perform a more sophisticated charge profile
on the battery, such as an IUI charge (constant current, constant
voltage, constant current)?
Dave Cover wrote:
> 3. Make them modular so I can plug on another module or two to get
> the wattage I need.
How so? You should be able to run multiple DC/DCs in parallel for higher
power output into the 12-Volt system. The only potential problem I can
think of off the top of my head would be interference due to them
operating at or very close to the same switching frequency but without
enough filtering on the inputs/outputs. Assuming this isn't an issue for
most units, what else are you looking for to make them modular?
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips, you listening?
I know you are a big proponent of BMS because the experience shows
that almost all US Electricar's long and double battery strings
die around 5000 miles, some get 7000 miles, while the cycle-life
expectancy suggests that they should live at least 20,000 miles.
Now take the data from this paper and see what that suggests for
the US Electricar: The Dr finds that without BMS he gets 140 cycles.
Hmmm - let's say that the US Electricar range is between 35 and 50
miles, dependent on whether Truck or sedan, temp and driving style.
Now multiply by 140 cycles... Between 4900 and 7000 miles. Bingo.
(Note that during these tests the batteries were held at room temp,
in real life they move away from 25 deg C and often the temp is
different between different layers of batteries, the US Electricar
has 2 rows of batteries stacked on top of each other.)
Put a battery equalizer on every battery and you have happy strings.
Hopefully the author did not have a conflict of interests. Oh, wait.
Let's see if anybody has been running equalisers for more than 20,000
miles and can confirm that his batteries lasted (I am only interested
in sealed batteries, as the floodeds can be equalised in other ways)
As Mike usually says: let's try to get some facts and move away
from lore (or manufacturer claims) if they have not been independently
proven - so let's see that proof and gather some data.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 10:40 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Taurus EV
I'm running the PowerCheqs and so far they work as advertised. EVen though
the Rudmans do not shuttle power bi-directionally I
would have went with them for the interface to the charger, if they were
potted. The PowerCheqs are potted and they seem to be
doing their job. More interestingly however is the benefit any battery
balancing scheme would seem to offer the cycle life of
batteries. Here's a paper by Nasser H. Kutkut, Ph.D. of
www.powerdesigners.com that sold me on buying at least some sort of
charge conditioning other than a straight 2 stage charger. The benefits
seem to be more pronounced, or should I say the
detriments of charging series strings of batteries becomes more pronounced
with larger strings.
LIFE CYCLE TESTING OF SERIES BATTERY STRINGS WITH INDIVIDUAL BATTERY
EQUALIZERS. This paper is at
http://www.powerdesigners.com/pdf/PowerCheq%20Paper%20-%20Motive%20Power.pdf
PowerCheq data is at http://www.powerdesigners.com/powercheq.htm
Professor Kutkut's company also focuses on stationary and motive forklift
applications. They do offer Fast Charging (30KW) for
48V applications and higher voltage applications in <200V, <400V and <800
volt models with the 6 KW HV series
http://www.powerdesigners.com/powercharge_hv_specs.htm . When I talked to
him while researching the PowerCheqs, he said he has
plans for high voltage automotive traction pack chargers similar to what us
EVers are looking for. IIRC he said they would be
announced this summer. I should call back and chat with him. Anyway, FWIW,
he also offers the PowerTrac modules with RS232 IrDA
interfaces. I have not researched them, or asked for prices. The best bang
for the buck seems to the Manzanita PFC- chargers and
some sort of balancer/shunt regulator modules. $55-$65 a pop seems like a
lot but if it would double the life of what would
otherwise be abused batteries then its cheaper in the long run.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> David Roden wrote:
> In all fairness, five of these are effectively unavailable to, or unusable
> for, the average EV hobbyist.
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> There's one other system Rich didn't mention that might be useful for EV
> hobbyists : Power Designers' Powercheq. I've always been skeptical about
> these gadgets (which are pretty pricey at $55-60 per node), but some
people
> have reported good results from them.
>.
>.
>.
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a little similar experience with my EVT electric scooter. It
has a horn with a beeping sound that is a little like an automotive
horn.
My normal commute is besides a four-lane highway on a separate light-
traffic route. I need to use the horn every now and then for bikers
and roller skaters. The horn is clearly audible, actually relatively
loud, but often it simply had no effect. I reasoned that the other
commuters took the horn sound coming from a car on the highway and
thus paid no further attention.
I simply installed a bicycle's ringing bell. This changed the
situation completely, now I get the passage every time when ringing
the bell.
Seppo
James Massey kirjoitti 8.7.2006 kello 6.18:
At 04:55 PM 7/07/06 -0500, you wrote:
This is the one that will be the "voice" of my EV. They call it
the "hammer" and it is a quad train horn. It is pretty light
weight even though it is all metal construction and I already have
the compressor and air tank for the air lift system. These things
are LOUD! , not the toy horns you see that run off 12 volts! I
hooked this thing up and it about took the rest of the hair off my
head!
:-)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=140005621750&ih=004&category=60203&ssPageName=STORE:PRO
MOBOX:NEWLIST
Why not?
Mark Ward
G'day Mark, and all
Why not? you ask, because the SUV driver is so busy looking for the
train that he runs over your Saab!
A friend had a set of truck horns in his little jappy econobox, and
he had a couple of close calls that he later worked out were due to
the drivers' that nearly 'collected' him were busy looking for the
Mack (etc) that was honking.
Better to have loud honking *car* horns and be safe, in my opinion
and practices.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm fan of power bike since moe than i can recall and i don't understand
your power required statement.
Why it should need 300 motor hp to go to 215mph as with genuine 175 hp
fullpower ICE version it go to 195mph ? (not same but not far from
214mph...)
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leblogmoto.com%2F2005%2F06%2Fsuzuki_gsxr_130.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
We know electric motors only need near or less than half original ICE hp to
have same power at wheels so for me with 100 electrical HP it should be
possible to go 214mph with an hayabusa conversion.
No need to give it 300 electrical hp unless it should become a 1/4 miles
dragster not a ultrasport road Ebike :^)
just my 2 yens though
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brendan Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 7:41 PM
Subject: RE: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle (rant slightly OT)
> OK, as a sport bike rider and someone who knows something about fast
machines, I've gotta' comment. This person just took a picture of a
Japanese bike (even I can't tell the difference between them anymore, and I
own one!) and Photoshopped the badging off of it, and stuck it on the site.
They didn't even bother to remove the exhaust can from under the seat. So
they're going to deliver this in two months and they haven't even removed
the exhaust yet! And I got the impression that this was a groud-up bike,
not a conversion. Why exactly is anyone giving this person the time of
day!?
>
> Anyway, these Japaneese cheese graders have terrible drag coefficients.
If I was out to make 214 mph machines, electric or otherwise, I'd custom
build a bike or at least start with a 1300cc Hyabusa, which has the
least-bad aerodynamics, and a frame that can support the battery and motor
size and weight. The motors are so small and light on these modern bikes
that even with Li-Ions you're gonna' need the bigger platform to make enough
power to sustain 214 mph. You're probably going to need about 300 hp (more
than the 246 they claim) to accomplish that task with a Hyabusa, and even
more with the un-aerodynamic kitchen utensil shown on that site.
>
> I do have to disagree with some of the other list comments though. Even
the modern 600s are built to such extremes that the frame, brakes, etc.
could handle that speed for a single straight line run. A modern 1000cc
bike can run around a track braking and accelerating up to top speeds
approaching 180mph (with a long enough straight) and slamming on the brakes
repetitively without any problems - at least until the tires are shredded
up.
>
> The point is that 214mph isn't that hard to do if you start with the right
platform (FYI, from the factory the Hyabusa is govered to 186mph with it's
190hp engine). All you have to do is get a Hyabusa (which Suzuki spent a
lot of money to engineer right) and put a turbo on it to add 100hp and turn
the governor off (causing the bike to now have lifespan measured in hours,
not years). No reason you couldn't make the same amount of horsepower with
an electric motor and Li-Ions. But if this person can't bother to take the
time to Photoshop the exhaust off while they're creating their scam, they
shouldn't waste the time of people who are actually out there building
motors and battery management systems for real projects!
>
> -Brendan Miller
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Evan,
I'm not surprised you catch it so well, seems to me you live in Triumph
country birth's place ;^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: New 214 MPH Electric Motorcycle
> Actually, it's a Daytona 675. Not exactly a toy, but certainly not
electric.
>
> Compare and contrast:
>
http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/Triumph/daytona_675/2006/daytona_675_2006_rhs_1024.jpg
>
> http://www.gowheel.com/ii/evDaytona_motorcycle.jpg
>
> Ha ha :)
>
> Regards
> Evan
>
>
> On 7/7/06, mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >Some how the front brakes look like toys... compared to some real 1
liter
> > >150 mph rice rockets I have actually seen.
> >
> > Hi Mr. Madman,
> >
> > The picture of the red machine they have on their website is a
> > photoshoped cut and paste job of one of those 150 mph rice rockets.
> > They just botched it up that bad.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > The Electric Motorcycle Portal
> > http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
> >
> > Electric Motorcycle Listserv
> > http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/listserv
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Bob Bath wrote:
Gast is much quieter than Thomas, IMHO. Mounting location is also
important. Use a square D switch (KTA-ev.com) because you can set it
to go on at 10 mm Hg, and off at 22 mmHg,
I've got the same setup (Gast pump, Square D Switch). While the Gast
pumps aren't the noisiest around, I don't feel that they're terribly
quiet either. Also, they aren't sealed well from water or other things
splashing into them. The Square D vacuum switches work very well, but
are, IMO, overkill for this application in both physical size and
capacity (IIRC, mine is rated to switch 240-Volts at 30Amps).
Although I haven't owned one myself, I've seen a couple of conversions
now that use the 70/6E MES vacuum pumps that Victor sells
(http://www.metricmind.com/). In both cases I was very impressed by how
quiet that pump is, not to mention the fact that it has an integral
vacuum switch and is much smaller then the Gast/Square D setup.
My 0.333 kWh,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My family has been very supportive of my EV habit, even bragging and
telling people about it. But realistically not considering an EV for
themselfs. They live 21 miles out of town. each driving enough miles
every day to push the limits of a conversion.
As we talked, I realized that they might be a candidate for higher
priced, turnkey EV. Something with an AC drivetrain and advanced
batteries. Admittedly, I have never considered EV's for the non-hobbiest
with what is out there. The reaon I say this is that they totaled up the
gasoline bill and it hit $1400 last month for them.
They currently have trucks, SUV's and a mini SUV so I wish Rav 4 EV's
were avial as that would be a perfect fit.
What is out there for these customers? Is someone offering turnkey systems?
is this accurate?
1400/$3 = 466 gallons * ~18mpg (a diesel @ 19 and a suburban and a
montero) = ~8400 miles/month
This looks like about 100 miles a day on each vehicle.
8400 miles * 300 wh/mile = 2520 kwh ( is 300 wh/mile to low? do I
need 400wh/mile to account for chargeing effiency?)
8400 miles * 400 wh/mile = 3360 kwh
At those power levels, What would the rate be? (PG&E) It looks like
Time of Use is about .10/kwh ? but I don't know about this type of power
use; demand charges?
If I assume .20 / kwh that would be 504 and 672, .10/kwh would
obviously be half that.
IF I drove 100 miles @ 400wh/mile(from wall) in each vehilce that is 40
kWh / day. If we want to charge in 8 hours that is still only 5kWh /hour
@ 240V that is almost doable with a PFC 20(can't pull 20 amps when pack
is near full,) so PFC 30's all around
But not lead, so ??? what charger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 7/7/06 5:47:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator running?
Date: 7/7/06 5:47:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
In a message dated 7/7/06 12:49:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Dennis,
Are you running this weekend?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org >>
If there is no rain I will be at Firebird tonight just for practice.I will
be
adjusting the brush rack to get more top end and slowing down the 1st 1/8
mile. Dennis >>
I did run at Firebird last night with the numeric low gear ratio.Tried many
Z2K settings and brush rack setings,seems I went to far in my gear ratio
change.I will put the same ratio I ran so succesfuly all year against the ice
dragsters back on. I will be back on the track next fri.night for practice.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If time permitts, could you expand on this a little? Like from what ratio to
what and the Z2K settings.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator running?
In a message dated 7/7/06 5:47:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator running?
Date: 7/7/06 5:47:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
In a message dated 7/7/06 12:49:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Dennis,
Are you running this weekend?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org >>
If there is no rain I will be at Firebird tonight just for practice.I will
be
adjusting the brush rack to get more top end and slowing down the 1st 1/8
mile. Dennis >>
I did run at Firebird last night with the numeric low gear ratio.Tried
many
Z2K settings and brush rack setings,seems I went to far in my gear ratio
change.I will put the same ratio I ran so succesfuly all year against the
ice
dragsters back on. I will be back on the track next fri.night for
practice.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the subject of using the automatic, Are transmissions flow machines
or pressure machines?
Flow system: The pump flows thru the system constantly building pressure
as needed. If the pump shuts off the pressure drops to zero rapidly. Or
a pressure system like older power steering systems where pressure is
built against a pressure relieve valve.
If the tranny has a pressure port that controls the valves that doesnt
take a lot of flow, ie seperate from the torque converter circuit, then
perhpas we could just put one of those football sized nitrogen charged
accumulators to maintain the pressure while stopped. perhaps a pump on a
contactor could come on to build pressure if the accumulator drains,
like initial start up or long lights.
How about for start up. clutch interlock on key to prevent lurching in
gear and while in start possition a contactor pulls in a resistor and
spins the main motor, building pressure into the accumulator. The motor
coasts to a stop when the key is released to the run position. (make it
like starting a diesel if it takes longer than that)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
Yes Jeff, there is one company I know of that will provide you with a full size
EV for distances of 100 to over 200 miles. It the same company I received by
first EV from back in 1976. Back then they were known as the Electric Fuel
Propulsion Company.
Today they are call Apollo Energy Systems.
They are more in the research and limit production of many different models of
cars, vans, buses, trucks. You can special order any type of vehicle you want
if you want to pay the price.
There is no set price for these EV's, only a minimum bid, which then you put in
a bid for the EV you want, usually the proto types they have perform testing
on.
Its like bidding on the first proto type cars from the large car manufacturers
which they make the first one by hand and then another 90 for testing. After
they are done, you can also bid on these cars, if you have a in.
The Apollo Energy Systems is located at:
2301 N.W. 33rd Court
Pompano Bench
Florida 33069
Tel. (888) 783-7050
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Web: www.apolloenergysystems.com<http://www.apolloenergysystems.com/>
There next generation EV's for long distances, will have a advanced Alkaline
Fuel Cell, that can be shut down, not the PEM fuel cells that has to be running
all the time. It will have the 300 to 400 ampere-hour cobalt batteries, that
are normally assemble in 42 cells cases. My first car had the 300 amp hour
type.
My self, I rather have only the cobalt batteries, but in a much smaller size in
the height. These I have, had a battery case of about 30 inches high. Today,
they are about 20 inches high, which the cells are about 16 inches high. You
can have them assemble a shorter version, which I may get on my next battery
exchange.
The cobalt batteries alone will take a 5000 lb car over 130 miles. My first EV
from them, call Transformer I which weigh 7850 lbs with these very large
batteries, could do 80 miles at 65 mph with a top speed of 92 mph and only pull
180 battery amps. I did this one time, until the batteries were discharge to
20% D.O.D. I ran these EV with these batteries for 10 years, before I replace
them with the standard Exide Tudor Type which was shorter and did not extended
below the car.
I was only driving 5 miles a day going up a very steep 2 mile hill, but still
could go these hill at 60 mph at 300 battery amps.
It was hard to keep the long cells warm when expose to the ambient temperature
below 30 below.
If you go to the above WEB site, you will see my car, Transformer I, the
bidding on these back in 1976, started at $12,000.00 for a unit that was ran
1056 miles in 24 hours which is the one I have, to models that the bids went
as high as $52,000.00.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:47 AM
Subject: EV for a different customer.
My family has been very supportive of my EV habit, even bragging and
telling people about it. But realistically not considering an EV for
themselfs. They live 21 miles out of town. each driving enough miles
every day to push the limits of a conversion.
As we talked, I realized that they might be a candidate for higher
priced, turnkey EV. Something with an AC drivetrain and advanced
batteries. Admittedly, I have never considered EV's for the non-hobbiest
with what is out there. The reaon I say this is that they totaled up the
gasoline bill and it hit $1400 last month for them.
They currently have trucks, SUV's and a mini SUV so I wish Rav 4 EV's
were avial as that would be a perfect fit.
What is out there for these customers? Is someone offering turnkey systems?
is this accurate?
1400/$3 = 466 gallons * ~18mpg (a diesel @ 19 and a suburban and a
montero) = ~8400 miles/month
This looks like about 100 miles a day on each vehicle.
8400 miles * 300 wh/mile = 2520 kwh ( is 300 wh/mile to low? do I
need 400wh/mile to account for chargeing effiency?)
8400 miles * 400 wh/mile = 3360 kwh
At those power levels, What would the rate be? (PG&E) It looks like
Time of Use is about .10/kwh ? but I don't know about this type of power
use; demand charges?
If I assume .20 / kwh that would be 504 and 672, .10/kwh would
obviously be half that.
IF I drove 100 miles @ 400wh/mile(from wall) in each vehilce that is 40
kWh / day. If we want to charge in 8 hours that is still only 5kWh /hour
@ 240V that is almost doable with a PFC 20(can't pull 20 amps when pack
is near full,) so PFC 30's all around
But not lead, so ??? what charger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In response to "
The EV conversion business is a difficult way to make a living... ;^>"
Maybe because we don't share.
We each re-invent the adapter, no standard, no economy of scale.
What if we took this approach? (I have talked this talk before)
Standards.
7",8",9" taper lock to small block chevy crank. I got quotes for a machine
shop to make small quantities. The quote needs larger and repeat quantities to
make it feasable. This is one adapter and 3 possible taperlock sheeves we could
use on all conversions if we also use the next standard.
Button flywheel for SBC and dual plate 7" racing clutch. These are standard
wheather you use tilton,clutchmaster, and others.
The disks are the same, just order with correct spline.
Aluminum motor bell. These give a 12" dia mouting register and set back the
motor just enough to use one of the standard plate thicknesses for the tranny
to bell adapter. I don't yet know how many models differing in only the depth
we need. Once this info is had we make castings that get cleaned up in the cnc
to furthor reduce costs.
The standard thickness plate is water jet to profile, dropped in a cnc and the
12" register is cleaned up and the entire bolt and dowel pattern is walked off.
Stamped and folded motor mount with a 7,8,9" ubolt, made at a spring shop that
makes u bolts for large truck axles. The fine threaded 3/4 or 7/8 rod about 2
feet long costs around $10 then is bent in seconds. In Fresno, 8" is the limit,
but the machine is avil larger and is easily reproduced for our needs.
<soapbox>
Just like Otmar and Rich have specialized and are able to make cost effective
solutions, someone needs to do the same for adapters. How many of us, (except
Lee, would have an EV if we had to make the controller and charger?
</soapbox>
I have got the tooling and manufacturing background, but not the capitol and
information (that may all change, a new job is on the horizon!)
Just because we have all those car models, we shouldn't follow there example
and make all custom adapters. We are mostly using the same motor, right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Value.
Sorry to cloud this up but no matter how low a cost or well it protects
itself, if it is too inefficient, I won't buy it.
I look for a nice confluence or triple point in everything I buy and it
is getting increaseingly difficult to find.
{reliability, cost, effiency}
I have a zilla requardless of price (but price almost put me off EV's
until I learned more.) because it is safest and was powerfull,effient
and had a good track record.
I have a PFC20 ... same argument, Solid Value.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dave Cover wrote:
> > 3. Make them modular so I can plug on another module or two to get
> > the wattage I need.
>
> How so? You should be able to run multiple DC/DCs in parallel for higher
> power output into the 12-Volt system.
That's all I was thinking of. If one unit puts out 100 watts, and I need more
power, parallel two
units to get 200 watts. Just want them to play nice together. The Vicor units
I've been looking at
provide the ability to connect multiples together so they work as a unit. I'm
guessing the first
unit acts as a master and the others as slaves.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know what the actual drag coefficient is for a Triumph Daytona
675 or a good guestimate of the amount of HP necessary to maintain 85 mph.
If they were going to use an eight in ADC in the bike I calculated that the
continuous current rating for the motor at 165 volts, which I think would be
the safe limit to take the motor to, would be in the neighborhood of 145
amps. At 165 volts at 145 amps you get 23,925 watts or about 24 actual
horsepower after losses. My question to the list is: does anyone out there
know enough about bike aerodynamics to tell me if 24 hp is enough to
maintain 85 mph? I would think it may but I am not sure.
Roderick Wilde
--
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--- End Message ---
