EV Digest 6392
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Forklift motor
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: RE" Crimper
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Crimping Tool Choice
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: RE" Crimper
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Crimping Tool Choice
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Crimping Tool Choice
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: (fwd) PHEV conversions and [NiMH] Batteries
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Supercapacitor modules
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) wiring size
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Looking for small transaxle source
by "james s" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: RE" Crimper
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Surplus Center Prestolite motor
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: wiring size
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Porsche invented the hub -mounted electric motor for his Por
sche - Lohner Chaise exhibited in 1900 at the paris world's fair
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Looking for small transaxle source
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Looking for small transaxle source
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Series Hybrids eff, Re: EV digest 6372
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Hub Motors, was Re: Porsche invented the hub -mounted electric motor
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: wiring size
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: wiring size
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Here is an article on Autobolg Green on this new organization:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/11/hydrogen-electric-racing-federation-begins-competition-in-2009-w/
Here is a particular line that rather ticked me off: "I'm confident that we
will look back on this historic day and see it for the truly momentous event
that it was -- the day when the Future of Racing was born." This was in
reference to vehicles powered by electric motors. The quote is from Peter M.
DeLorenzo, President and CEO of the Hydrogen Electric Racing Federation. I
am going to try and find contact information for him and give him a piece of
my mind. This will obviously be a sport for multi millionaires as the
current price of hydrogen fuel cells is in the millions and non of them put
out the power levels you would need to do any serious racing. I certainly
won't be holding my breath.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:01 PM
Subject: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
Anyone on the EVDL have any info or insight into the Hydrogen Electric
Racing
Federation? Today's USA Today had a blurb about the HERF beginning a
racing
series in May 2009 with cars that are "similar in dimension to sports car
prototypes."
They intend to hold their debut race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway
and
estimate average lap speeds of approximately 185 mph.
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Hey Tom
Thought I'd chime in here.
If you plan to run this motor with a higher voltage
you'll need to advance the brush timing to prevent
brush arc. The most common and easiest way is to
rotate the CE plate (brush end) in the opposite
direction the motor will be rotating about 10 degress.
Mark, drill, and tap new mounting holes and remount
the plate using those new holes.
Failure to do this will result in calls to me asking
what happened to your once pretty motor, lmao!!
Feel free to email me some pics if you'd like me to
have a look to make sure she only has 9 hours on her,
even more important what those 9 did to her. Actually
sounds like a great find but I thought I'd offer it to
you anyway.
BTW Father Time over volts his 12 volt motor X10 but
lets say his duty cycle isn't real long, you could
also say the motors aren't real happy about it, lmao!
Anyway you probably just made 14 people really jealous
with your nice find.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am looking for some guidance. Been casually looking
> on ebay for an
> 11" forklift motor. Found one (maybe more) in my
> backyard. It is a GE
> 11" forklift motor with 9 hours on it. It is rated
> for 36/48VDC. I
> know Lee Hart has commented that you can run most
> series motors at 3x
> their rated voltage.
> Am I remembering right? What are the potential
> problems? Would
> appreciate any help anyone can offer. I have been
> thinking about
> tying this type of motor directly to the
> differential of a RWD vehicle.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom in Maine (no warming this week)
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is some more information on this new sport.
http://www.autoextremist.com/page3.shtml I have already shot off a rather
pointed letter to Peter M. DeLorenzo the CEO and President of the
organization. There is more information here at Megawatt Motorworks:
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=334 For
you number crunchers out there that know the efficiencies of fuel cells
could you run some numbers on this. They limit the amount of hydrogen
onboard to 8kg compressed to 10,000 psi. They require a minimum of 300 kw
motor. They say the cars will go 185 mph. They don't say the length of the
race but they have trademarked the term the "Hydrogen 500". So can you
number crunchers out there give us a rough idea of how far you could go with
8kg of hydrogen using 300 plus kw. So is this BS or real?
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:01 PM
Subject: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
Anyone on the EVDL have any info or insight into the Hydrogen Electric
Racing
Federation? Today's USA Today had a blurb about the HERF beginning a
racing
series in May 2009 with cars that are "similar in dimension to sports car
prototypes."
They intend to hold their debut race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway
and
estimate average lap speeds of approximately 185 mph.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 02:23 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
We use a die set we made to crimp on 4 sides in a Hyd press 20 tons,
I cut one in 1/2 to see what it looked like, Just a solid mass of
copper.. Wayne
Yep. That's what our hammer crimped ones look like inside, too. I
can show you.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is "intrinsically wrong" with a hammer crimper is that there is
no way for you to know if the crimp you have made is "good" or "bad"
or "so-so."
Since there is considerable tolerance for connection resistance in
the typical EV application, the large majority of the inconsistent
crimps you make with the hammer crimper fall within the wide range of
acceptable resistance and durability. You pull on the wire and if it
doesn't come out of the terminal, then it is likely good enough for
your typical low-performance EV conversion. If it isn't, you will fix
it when it fails.
As I said earlier, "Folks have successfully used the hammer crimpers,
but they are not ideal."
They are, by far, not the best device to make crimps, but they are cheap.
If you are on a budget, and you can weld, then you should save a few
more dollars and build the $21 squeeze crimpers. They are the best of
both worlds.
At 05:26 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
Electro Automotive wrote:
I didn't ask what they were using them for. But apparently the tool
met their standards.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a hammer crimper. It can
produce crimps just as good as the expensive jaw-type crimping tools
if you use it correctly. It's just that's easier to produce bad
crimps with them if you don't know what you are doing. The jaw-type
crimpers require less skill to produce a good crimp.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you saw though a crimped connection, the saw blade smears all
the metal together. Thus, almost any crimp will look like a solid piece.
The correct way to do this is to cut the connection with EDM and then
polish the cut end.
Alternatively, you can abrasively polish the saw-cut end to remove
the area that was deformed by the saw.
Bill Dube'
At 07:17 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
At 02:23 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
We use a die set we made to crimp on 4 sides in a Hyd press 20
tons, I cut one in 1/2 to see what it looked like, Just a solid
mass of copper.. Wayne
Yep. That's what our hammer crimped ones look like inside, too. I
can show you.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I put my 2/0 in a lug and crimped it with the hammer crimper. My
observation is that due to the impact aspects of this device it does
not give a uniform crimp "profile" and can also distort the lug if
used too hard.. I can see that a better crimper would be more
consistent and could also provide a more uniform end at the wire for
heat shrinking around. I may buy a better one and then hold onto it
if I survive the first conversion or sell it on the list when
finished. Seems like a good investment for a critical part of the
process.
Mark
www.electricyaris.com
On Feb 7, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Bill Dube wrote:
What is "intrinsically wrong" with a hammer crimper is that there
is no way for you to know if the crimp you have made is "good" or
"bad" or "so-so."
Since there is considerable tolerance for connection resistance in
the typical EV application, the large majority of the inconsistent
crimps you make with the hammer crimper fall within the wide range
of acceptable resistance and durability. You pull on the wire and
if it doesn't come out of the terminal, then it is likely good
enough for your typical low-performance EV conversion. If it isn't,
you will fix it when it fails.
As I said earlier, "Folks have successfully used the hammer
crimpers, but they are not ideal."
They are, by far, not the best device to make crimps, but they are
cheap.
If you are on a budget, and you can weld, then you should save a
few more dollars and build the $21 squeeze crimpers. They are the
best of both worlds.
At 05:26 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
Electro Automotive wrote:
I didn't ask what they were using them for. But apparently the
tool met their standards.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a hammer crimper. It can
produce crimps just as good as the expensive jaw-type crimping
tools if you use it correctly. It's just that's easier to produce
bad crimps with them if you don't know what you are doing. The jaw-
type crimpers require less skill to produce a good crimp.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:49 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
However, we have sold them to Boeing, so I guess they must be ok.
They most certainly would not be using them for an
airplane. The FAA would have their head on a pike for using a
hammer crimper. Probably for a fork lift or a car battery.
I didn't ask what they were using them for. But apparently the
tool met their standards.
Shari Prange
The FAA requires that the crimp operation be done with a
tool that delivers the same (and the correct) displacement every
time it is operated. Ratchet type crimpers that will not retract
until fully actuated are the norm for aircraft use.
A hammer crimper would be unable to meet any "standard"
because the resultant crimp quality is highly variable. Even the
same operator would have varying results. Aside from 100% pull
testing and resistance testing, there would be no way to assure
that each connection was done with consistent quality.
If you hammer too hard or too much, you will cut the
strands of the cable, resulting in a poor connection.
Never seen this happen.
If you hammer too light or too little, you will not deform the crimp
enough to swage tightly against the cable, causing a poor connection.
That's why there's calibrations on the tool.
If it is OK to have an occasional bad connection that you
will correct when it lets go or heats up, then I guess a hammer
crimper will work for you. If, however, you want some degree of
consistency and quality control in your connections, you cannot use
a hammer crimper.
Geez, Bill! I don't need my car to be FAA certified.
Ok, let's say that Boeing can probably buy any kind of crimper they
want, including for their bloody forklifts. And let's also assume
that, as an aircraft company, they generally have a corporate culture
of NOT buying shoddy tools. (At least, I certainly hope they
do!). So, apparently the hammer crimper met THEIR PURCHASING
STANDARDS for whatever the hell they were using it for. If it was
for forklifts, or tugs, or whatever, then it MAY have even been a
HIGHER current application than our poor little cars.
My point is, if it's good enough for Boeing, it's good enough for me.
To quote one hgih school instructor customer of ours: "We gave the
cables and lugs and crimper and hammer to the special ed kids, and
let 'em have at it. They had a great time, and we didn't lose a
single connection in the race."
The hammer crimpers are practically idiot-proof. Which is not to say
the bolt-cutter style aren't also excellent. Also great for
developing your pecs.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
my name is fred mertens , I have a 2005 prius . what do I have to do to
qualifly for ir program ? I am also building an ev when will u be able to
sell / lease batteries for a 96vdc ev? ?? I will fwd u a email with the data
on trojan t145 batteries and range so u can compare and tell me how many and
how much it will cost to replace the lead acid with ur ni-mh's
----- Original Message -----
From: murdoch<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:57 PM
Subject: (fwd) PHEV conversions and [NiMH] Batteries
Perhaps of interest to those keeping an eye out for new battery
approaches.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martha Jensen
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: [RAV4-EV] PHEV conversions and Batteries
I apologize in advance as this is slightly off-topic. I'm working at
a NiMH battery start-up that would like to get batteries into HEVs and
PHEVs. We're looking for people that are interested in doing a PHEV
conversion to test some batteries for us. We would arrange a
below-market lease for the batteries, as well as some technical
assistance in performing the conversion, in exchange for regular data
dumps and information on performance.
If you or anyone you know are interested, please contact me and I will
provide more information on the program. We are located in the Denver
Colorado area, and would give preference to people located in
geographical proximity for logistical reasons.
Martha Jensen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
V (303) 662-8891
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is an article in Auto Week.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070110/FREE/70110006/1036/FREE
Apparently this race is mostly for big auto companies. These are the same
auto companies that can't even build a production electric car. What orifice
are they going to pull out the 300 plus kw drive from. If they do develop it
we will all benefit, well maybe. It will most likely be one off prototype
stuff. This must be some sort of way to show that fool cells are viable and
get more federal funding. There has to be some angle. This whole thing just
doesn't make sense.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:01 PM
Subject: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
Anyone on the EVDL have any info or insight into the Hydrogen Electric
Racing
Federation? Today's USA Today had a blurb about the HERF beginning a
racing
series in May 2009 with cars that are "similar in dimension to sports car
prototypes."
They intend to hold their debut race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway
and
estimate average lap speeds of approximately 185 mph.
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--- Begin Message ---
For making conversions, I find this web site very helpful...
http://www.onlineconversion.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Martin Klingensmith
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:59 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Supercapacitor modules
I should stop trying to make capacitor calculations in emails.
--
Martin K
Phil Marino wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how you got from coulombs to watts, but here's another way:
>
> Two of these in series would give you a 31.5F, 250V capacitor. ( two
> capacitors in series have half the value of each of the original
> capacitors)
>
> The energy stored in a capacitor is 1/2 x C x V x V
>
> So, the energy at 250V is 1/2 x 31.5 x 250 x 250 = 980,000 Joules.
> The energy at 200V = 1/2 x 31.5 x 200 x 200 = 630,000 J
> The difference ( energy you get out by dropping it from 250V to 200V)
> = 350,000 J
>
> A joule is a watt-second.
>
> So, if you draw it down in 1/2 second, you would be drawing 700,000
> watts, or 0.7 Megawatts ( about 1000 HP).
> It might be hard ( and not all that useful) to use all that energy in
> 1/2 second.
>
> If you draw it down over a minute, you would get 5.800 watts, or about
> 8 HP.
>
> Phil
>
>
>> If you drag it down to 200v over 1/2 second, you would be drawing 12,600
>> watts or 16 HP.
>> This could help a LiIon pack, I'd assume. It's not cheap though.
>>
>> I THINK my math is right..
>>
>> --
>> Martin Klingensmith
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger
>
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://ima
gine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is some data on the BMW H2 hydrogen powered car the first colum of
numbers is the time it took in seconds and the second colum is speed in
KM/H. In the one test there it is traveling at about 300 KM/H which is a bit
more then 185 MP/H so this could be possisble. But this is a hydrogen
combustion vehicle. Less efficent then fuel cell but realeases the energy
quicker. I wonder if its range is only 10-15 miles because thats the longest
test. The one thing i don't get is how it can reach 300 KM/H on the flying
start 1 KM and not get going that fast after 10 miles.
Flying-start kilometer 11.993 300.19
Flying-start mile 19.912 290.962
Standing-start 1/8 mile 9.921 72.997
Standing-start ¼ mile 14.933 96.994
Standing-start ½ km 17.269 104.233
Standing-start mile 36.725 157.757
Standing-start 10 miles 221.052 262.094
Standing-start kilometer 26.557 135.557
Standing-start 10 km 146.406 245.892
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:01:03 EST
Anyone on the EVDL have any info or insight into the Hydrogen Electric
Racing
Federation? Today's USA Today had a blurb about the HERF beginning a racing
series in May 2009 with cars that are "similar in dimension to sports car
prototypes."
They intend to hold their debut race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and
estimate average lap speeds of approximately 185 mph.
_________________________________________________________________
Free Alerts : Be smart - let your information find you !
http://alerts.live.com/Alerts/Default.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
is 1/0 wiring big enough to take 450 amps for short bursts and 100-200 amps
continuous at 72 volts?
_________________________________________________________________
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
From January 26 to February 8, 2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could try an ATV transaxle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has to be explain what type hammer crimpier or similar tool is used.
There is many different types of hammer crispers that come with a sharp
point to a 1/4 inch round point, a wedge bar and a cutting bar, single size
gage and multi gage size.
The single size gage couplers all come with the same outside diameter from
No 2 to 4/0 for line work.
In out Klein electrical tool kit, we have a hammer crimpier for only single
size gage only. It has a depth gage where no matter how hard you hammer or
use a press, the crimp will come out the same.
We never use it for crimping wire connectors because it is only one point.
But we use the wedge bar that runs with the length of the cable that uses
double barrel splice for aircraft type stainless steel wire or guy wires to
form a eye in the end of the cable.
Also we use another one on the lines truck with a cutter blade for cutting
chain, steel guy wire and aluminum steel conductors which may have up to 5/8
steel cable surrounded with 2 inches of aluminum conductor.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: RE" Crimpier
> At 02:23 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
> >We use a die set we made to crimp on 4 sides in a Hyd press 20 tons,
> >I cut one in 1/2 to see what it looked like, Just a solid mass of
> >copper.. Wayne
>
> Yep. That's what our hammer crimped ones look like inside, too. I
> can show you.
>
> Shari Prange
>
>
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
That's okay, we have some options. A friend of a friend has an electric
golf cart, we already have a relatively high-power magmotor, I'm putting
together a BLDC motor.. we'll get something to work!
I've been thinking about building a pancake motor too. I do have access
to a machine shop.
--
Martin K
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Hey Jim, perhaps you have a used 6 or 7 inch motor you could offer these
guys a deal on?
If not, there is always eBay.
Hey Martin
Those sized motors do in fact make a very fun kart. I
went back and had another look at that motor and
noticed it's listed as a shunt motor which is another
knock against it for what you're looking to do.
To bad it isn't a better suited motor as the price is
pretty good. Even with a free core the costs of a
shaft, bearings, brushes, and possible brush ring
would keep me from being able to compete with it price
wise.
Anyway hope this helps. Sorry it's not a better
report.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tim,
The amperage rating of the conductor depends on many factors. The type of
conductor, temperature rating of the insulation, running it in a close
compartment and the circuit length.
The circuit length is the total circuit loop length, not just the length of
run between two points. In my EV, I have a total run of 25 feet of
conductor including all the battery lines, to the controller and to the
motor. The circuit length is 50 feet.
1/0 copper stranded bare wire run in air is good for 175 amps continuous for
a 3 percent voltage drop.
A 1/0 copper stranded wire that has a insulation rating of 90 degrees C or
194 degrees F is good for 170 amps continuous with a 3 percent voltage drop.
A 2/0 copper stranded wire with a insulation rating of 90 degrees C is good
for 195 amps continuous at 3 percent VD.
The above distances are at 100 feet circuit length, so the voltage drop will
be proportional to the length. At 50 feet circuit length it will be about
1.5 percent voltage drop.
At 72 volts, it will drop to about 62 volts under a 195 amp load for a 50
foot circuit length. As you increase the ampere, the voltage will drop
proportional.
It would be best to use 2/0 multi strand copper wire with a voltage rating
of 300 volts for any voltages under 250 volts and 600 volt rating for
voltages over 300 volts.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: wiring size
> is 1/0 wiring big enough to take 450 amps for short bursts and 100-200
> amps
> continuous at 72 volts?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
> >From January 26 to February 8, 2007
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will try later this week.
Cor van de Water wrote:
The list does not allow attachments.
Can you upload it somewhere and provide a link?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 1:56 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Porsche invented the hub -mounted electric motor for his
Porsche - Lohner Chaise exhibited in 1900 at the paris world's fair
He set several speed records with his hybrid and raced it regualry. He
also sold a variant of the hybrid to the firedepartments of the day.
More photos atached.
For those interested in the book the complete title is beyond
expectation
The volkswagen story
By k.b. Hopsinger
London g.t. Foulis & co, ltd.
Printed by the marshall press limited, milford lane, strand, london,
w.c.2.
Introduction is dated march 1954
No print date can be found.
Additionally he conceived of a gas engine driving a generator which
would supply the electric power required to drive the road wheels to
avoid the use of heavy batteries.
Page 17
Fascinating that a revered gas auto designer actually preferred
electrics at the beginning of his career.
In a book called "beyond expectation" by k b hopfinger about ferdinand
porsche I was surprised to learn he invented the hub mounted electric
motor to drive his electrical car design to avoid the losses of
transmissions and drive belts.
One in each front wheel.
9 miles per hour 32 mile range
Porsche was 25 yrs old.
Photo attached.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Which ATVs use transaxles? Do you have a source for them?
Thanks.
> You could try an ATV transaxle.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
THe answer is in the numbers you gave.
Look at the 1/4 mile ET: 60 mph !!!!!
After the initial acceleration, they gained only about 10 mph
in every next kilometer, which is ridiculously little.
When I had a BMW and first entered the freeway, I was used to
punch the accelerator, but now the first thought than shot
through my mind was "why is everyone moving backwards"?
before my eye went to the spedometer and I realized that
at 90 MPH I already had enough speed to merge.
This was only a 2.5 liter non-turbo.
It looks like they had trouble keeping the Hydrogen burner
running at all, because why would the ET of 1 mile flying start
be slower than the 1 km flying start?
Because it was only optimal in the first test, while they
were burning through their Hydrogen, the pressure dropped
or something like that, so even the 10 miles was not sufficient
to come anywhere near the first time and 10 km was again much lower.
No doubt they will improve that, but this shows that all this
H-stuff is still in its infancy.
It will probably stay there, because there is no economic
feasibility, thus it will always be an expensive hobby,
created for marketing purposes only.
Now racing with the fool cells will be interesting, not
because I care one bit about the cells, but because the
developemnt of 300 kW drive systems and batteries.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 7:30 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
Here is some data on the BMW H2 hydrogen powered car the first colum of
numbers is the time it took in seconds and the second colum is speed in
KM/H. In the one test there it is traveling at about 300 KM/H which is a bit
more then 185 MP/H so this could be possisble. But this is a hydrogen
combustion vehicle. Less efficent then fuel cell but realeases the energy
quicker. I wonder if its range is only 10-15 miles because thats the longest
test. The one thing i don't get is how it can reach 300 KM/H on the flying
start 1 KM and not get going that fast after 10 miles.
Flying-start kilometer 11.993 300.19
Flying-start mile 19.912 290.962
Standing-start 1/8 mile 9.921 72.997
Standing-start ¼ mile 14.933 96.994
Standing-start ½ km 17.269 104.233
Standing-start mile 36.725 157.757
Standing-start 10 miles 221.052 262.094
Standing-start kilometer 26.557 135.557
Standing-start 10 km 146.406 245.892
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Hydrogen Electric Racing?
>Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:01:03 EST
>
>Anyone on the EVDL have any info or insight into the Hydrogen Electric
>Racing
>Federation? Today's USA Today had a blurb about the HERF beginning a racing
>series in May 2009 with cars that are "similar in dimension to sports car
>prototypes."
>
>They intend to hold their debut race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and
>estimate average lap speeds of approximately 185 mph.
>
_________________________________________________________________
Free Alerts : Be smart - let your information find you !
http://alerts.live.com/Alerts/Default.aspx
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--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, I looked there a few weeks ago and missed the couple that cost less
than $200.
Still, I'd /like/ to find something for under $100.
Thanks.
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007020614091495&item=13-1097
>
> they have a few different ones.
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Does anyone know of an affordable source for small transaxles, like the
>> ones used in Lawn/Garden tractors?
>>
>> Doesn't mater if they are new or used as long as they are in good
>> condition and all have the same or substantially similar mounting
>> points.
>>
>> Thanks, Pete.
>>
>>
>
>
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> They heat up because the plastic case forms a nicely insulated box. But
> the heat actually being generated is fairly low.
>
> The Optima test you mentioned might the one that is often used to
> promote fast pulse charging. They deliberately charged the batteries
> very fast and hard, to 16v or so. This *lowered* efficiency, by
> producing a lot of heat. It certainly kept them plenty warm! The high
> average temperatures this produced caused deceptively high amphour
> capacity.
Might be a different report. The one I'm thinking about was about heat
management in hybrid battery packs. As I recall it didn't take much
cooling, just fans, but it definitely needed cooling and, as I recall, the
pack was running very hot.
I'm pretty sure this was using their prototype 'baby' YTs. IIRC these had
pretty impressive numbers for super low Peukerts and internal resistance.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of which, I just watched FutureCar on Discover channel where
the creator of the Eliica points out one of the 8 100hp hub motors -
wild looking car!
> I will try later this week.
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > The list does not allow attachments.
> > Subject: Porsche invented the hub -mounted electric motor for his
> > Porsche - Lohner Chaise exhibited in 1900 at the paris world's fair
> >
> >
> > He set several speed records with his hybrid and raced it
regualry. He
> > also sold a variant of the hybrid to the firedepartments of the day.
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think something is wrong with your math.
The voltage drop should be constant at a give current and length, not a
percentage of applied voltage.
1/0 cable has about 0.096 ohms resistance per thousand feet, or 0.0048
ohms for 50 feet. By my calculations, that works out to ~0.8 volts at 170
amps and ~0.9 V at 195 amps.
I don't have a clue how you came up with 10 volts of drop at 195 amps, but
that would make a nice space heater (almost 2,000 watts) ;-)
> Hello Tim,
>
> The amperage rating of the conductor depends on many factors. The type of
> conductor, temperature rating of the insulation, running it in a close
> compartment and the circuit length.
>
> The circuit length is the total circuit loop length, not just the length
> of
> run between two points. In my EV, I have a total run of 25 feet of
> conductor including all the battery lines, to the controller and to the
> motor. The circuit length is 50 feet.
>
> 1/0 copper stranded bare wire run in air is good for 175 amps continuous
> for
> a 3 percent voltage drop.
>
> A 1/0 copper stranded wire that has a insulation rating of 90 degrees C or
> 194 degrees F is good for 170 amps continuous with a 3 percent voltage
> drop.
>
> A 2/0 copper stranded wire with a insulation rating of 90 degrees C is
> good
> for 195 amps continuous at 3 percent VD.
>
> The above distances are at 100 feet circuit length, so the voltage drop
> will
> be proportional to the length. At 50 feet circuit length it will be about
> 1.5 percent voltage drop.
>
> At 72 volts, it will drop to about 62 volts under a 195 amp load for a 50
> foot circuit length. As you increase the ampere, the voltage will drop
> proportional.
>
> It would be best to use 2/0 multi strand copper wire with a voltage rating
> of 300 volts for any voltages under 250 volts and 600 volt rating for
> voltages over 300 volts.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:32 PM
> Subject: wiring size
>
>
>> is 1/0 wiring big enough to take 450 amps for short bursts and 100-200
>> amps
>> continuous at 72 volts?
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
>> >From January 26 to February 8, 2007
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I said the total run of 50 feet circuit length, which includes the 2/0
cables, cable lugs, batteries, battery links, contactors, shunts and
controller. In my EV this is about 3 percent voltage drop in a EV 50 foot
circuit which includes the battery links.
I am running 50 feet of circuit length of which the voltage reads 192 volts
at no load, and at exactly 200 amp load, my battery voltage reads about 186
volts which is about 3 percent volt drop of the applied voltage. I read
this ampere and voltage with four industrial meters and also the E-meter,
and they read all the same.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: wiring size
> I think something is wrong with your math.
>
> The voltage drop should be constant at a give current and length, not a
> percentage of applied voltage.
>
> 1/0 cable has about 0.096 ohms resistance per thousand feet, or 0.0048
> ohms for 50 feet. By my calculations, that works out to ~0.8 volts at 170
> amps and ~0.9 V at 195 amps.
>
> I don't have a clue how you came up with 10 volts of drop at 195 amps, but
> that would make a nice space heater (almost 2,000 watts) ;-)
>
> > Hello Tim,
> >
> > The amperage rating of the conductor depends on many factors. The type
> > of
> > conductor, temperature rating of the insulation, running it in a close
> > compartment and the circuit length.
> >
> > The circuit length is the total circuit loop length, not just the length
> > of
> > run between two points. In my EV, I have a total run of 25 feet of
> > conductor including all the battery lines, to the controller and to the
> > motor. The circuit length is 50 feet.
> >
> > 1/0 copper stranded bare wire run in air is good for 175 amps continuous
> > for
> > a 3 percent voltage drop.
> >
> > A 1/0 copper stranded wire that has a insulation rating of 90 degrees C
> > or
> > 194 degrees F is good for 170 amps continuous with a 3 percent voltage
> > drop.
> >
> > A 2/0 copper stranded wire with a insulation rating of 90 degrees C is
> > good
> > for 195 amps continuous at 3 percent VD.
> >
> > The above distances are at 100 feet circuit length, so the voltage drop
> > will
> > be proportional to the length. At 50 feet circuit length it will be
> > about
> > 1.5 percent voltage drop.
> >
> > At 72 volts, it will drop to about 62 volts under a 195 amp load for a
> > 50
> > foot circuit length. As you increase the ampere, the voltage will drop
> > proportional.
> >
> > It would be best to use 2/0 multi strand copper wire with a voltage
> > rating
> > of 300 volts for any voltages under 250 volts and 600 volt rating for
> > voltages over 300 volts.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:32 PM
> > Subject: wiring size
> >
> >
> >> is 1/0 wiring big enough to take 450 amps for short bursts and 100-200
> >> amps
> >> continuous at 72 volts?
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
> >> >From January 26 to February 8, 2007
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
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