EV Digest 6472
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Questions on EV
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Bush checks out Phoenix SUT. OT, sorry Dave
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) All of original Tesla patents
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solutions, Re: Fixing Mark's S-10 EV
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Questions on EV
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: T-105 Sticker shock
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Bush checks out Phoenix SUT. OT, sorry Dave
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 6V AGM regulator design
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Breaker mounting
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) generator
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: VW buggy, was: Re: EV bashing
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Aero pickup and low cost EV's
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 6V AGM regulator design
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Breaker mounting
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available For
Te...
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: All of original Tesla patents
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: All of original Tesla patents
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: [EV] Re: Breaker mounting
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: [EV] Re: Breaker mounting
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: All of original Tesla patents
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 14.4v 115 amp/hour Battery Juice
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: White Zombie History
by Jim Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available For
Te...
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jason, I wouldn't bother with solar panels. You'd be better off spending money
for aero mods to increase range. 60 miles at highway speeds might be hard to
do; remember that higher speeds will eat up stored energy very quickly and
reduce your range dramatically. Of course, I have no direct experience with
this car or even a 4-wheel EV; my own project is only 25% complete. I do
however have a lot of miles on a small electric m-cycle which has shown me a
whole bunch about EV trade-offs. Something you can use for planning purposes
is Uve's EV calculator; it's fun to input different parameters and see what
comes out. Have fun!
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/evcalc.html
----- Original Message ----
From: Jason Franzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:38:52 AM
Subject: Questions on EV
Hi, my name is Jason Franzman, I am a freshman in a Junior
College and I am looking into a engineering major and will hopefully be
transfering to UC Berkley. I am new in to this list and in my
research. I am sure before long you will be bored and annoyed by all
my questions. I am extremely interested in converting a car into an EV
for many reasons. First and for most, my goal is to save the
enviroment and to do this effectively I need the car to reach a
sufficent range of about 150 miles on one charge. I am looking into an
AC converting kit on Electro Automotive specifically the porsche 914 AC
kit. It costs about 13K not including batteries or the body but it
will reach about 150 miles on one charge and can go up to 100
mph. They advise that I use lead batteries but I am also looking into
either Lithium Ion but most likely Nickel Metal Hydride. Also I am
looking into solar panels which I will fit onto the roof, trunk and
hood since they are so flat.
The car will have a significant down
time after 60 miles since Berkely is only 60 miles from my house and
will be able to charge for about 7 or so hours before I return home. I
am looking into the hypothetical best car that I can build and then
from there I will downgrade based on the money.
To tell you the
truth I have about a million questions that I can think of to ask based
on my ideas. Some specific questions are will the solar panels( so far
I can only find ones that do about 6-8% that can bend enough to put on
a car) generate enough electricity to justify the money spent? What do
you think about the choice of car? What is one of the lightest cars
with the most surface area (for solar panels) and most efficent drive
trains in you opinion? Is a kit a good way to go and my last question:
is the Electro Automotive Company I mentioned earlier a reliable
company?
I am really excited to learn that there are other
people who care about the world around them and are willing to do
something about it. The main question that I have is what do you think
of my plan and do you have any advice that can help my pursuit. Any
help would be appreciated and thanks.
Jason Franzman
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Now, don't expect alot from the Best Govt. Oil Money can Buy, until there
> is another chrisis?Hurricane, somebody Farts in the Middle East?But it was a
> pleasent surprise to see a EV go Prime Time.
>
And let's not forget what happened to the PV panels on the roof of the White
House when a prior
Bush was in office. Carter put them up during an earlier energy crisis and
Reagan/Bush took them
down when the crisis was over. We need to keep up the task of
building/promoting/driving EVs
because that old disease of short term memory will surely rear it's ugly head.
It's still a grass
roots fight until EVs are really main stream. My teenage daughters have already
stated that they
never want to drive a gasoline powered car. Things are looking better, but....
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can get a copy of all of Teslas patents in a book:
"The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla" by Jim Glenn
mario
> > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:49:31 -0800
> From: Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:Three pages of original Tesla electrical patents from the late
1800's
> here!
>
> Three pages of original Tesla electrical patents from the late 1800's
> here!
>
>
>
>
http://www.google.com/patents?num=100&q=tesla&btnG=Search+Patents&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1776&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1934
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why does the old height matter except to increase
> drag?
Because there's 'stuff' up there- batteries, controller,
relay boxes, breaker, windshield washer, all sorts of
things that would have to be relocated. Not quick
or easy.
> All you need to do is match the wheelwells to the front
> wheels, lower the steering wheel and let the rest fall
> where it does.
There's a lot more to putting a car body on a frame than that.
> I'm not sure if you notice how you shoot everything
> down people are suggesting, many times with spurious
> arguements that have litle bearing on the problem?
What if those solutions don't meet a particular operational
or budget requirement?
> a 37% or so range improvement is hard to ignore
What if that improvement costs more to implement than
the return it generates?
> The question is do you want to solve your problem
> or keep complaining?
Pointing out that EV's cost more per mile to operate than
ICE's is complaining?
> You asked for solutions, here several are.
OK, time now for Mr. Practical to step in.
Even with the potential gains in efficiency and
battery life, I would have to dismiss (or, "shoot down")
this idea for practicality reasons. Those being:
An RX7, or any other donor car chassis is not free. One
that does not require any collision or corrosion repair
I would guess would cost at least $1000. The composite
pickup bed I would bet is an expensive item in it's own
right, I would guess at least a couple thousand.
There would be significant changes to the S-10 front
end, namely battery, controller and auxilliary systems
placement to accomodate the different front clip and
cab. There would be significiant labor in "connecting"
steering, brakes and 12V chassis wiring and controls.
It won't "fit over" and "connect" to what's already
there.
Adapting the body to fit the frame, plus the custom
metalwork to make it look right, then painting the
entire vehicle adds even more. Paint and painting
materials alone are about $500 for any car I've ever
done.
This is not a trivial job. Not only are you making
one car out of two or more, but you're making it an
EV as well with all of it's inherent requirments.
It would be like starting over, except I already
have the EV driveline components.
So, all of this labor and direct cost to extend the
life of a $2400 battery pack 25% isn't cost effective.
The chassis itself wouldn't last long enough to be
able to put enough packs in to realize the savings.
Spending thousands to save hundreds doesn't make sense,
at least in my world. I understand that not all of
what EV'ers do is in the interest of cost vs. return,
but in this case it directly applies. I would be
taking an already working and proven vehicle, spending
a lot of time and money to improve the efficiency,
but net no additional utility (since range and speed
are already sufficient) other than a year extra life per
pack. If this was a ground-up project it would be a
different story, but for now the "lead pig" will just
have to oink around the way it is.
Now, Lee Hart offered some suggestions that lean
toward the more practical side:
> To start with, how much force does it take to push
> your truck on flat level pavement?
I have no idea. If I can find a level parking lot
somewhere I will check it out. Perhaps checking it
in two directions I can cancel out the grade.
> soft tires, misaligned suspension, dragging brakes,
> heavy oil in the transmission and differential, worn
> wheel bearings, Correcting these problems gives you
> extra range.
I have LRR tires inflated to high pressures, brakes do
not drag, bearings are good, and I had the front end aligned
towards the minimum spec'd amount of toe and caster.
> after a drive, what gets hot?
Nothing. Even after a long pull of a 5 mile 5% grade hill
here nothing is more than warm to the touch.
> What about dead weight?
Ham radios are about the only thing, spare and jack are in
the garage. "SLI" batt is a small automotive size, downsized
from the stock S-10 version.
> adding regenerative braking could be worthwhile.
My commute is short and not a lot of time is spent on the
brakes. Have learned the soft start and coast techniques
years ago.
> structural mods like plugging the grille, fiberglass
> body parts, or aerodynamic mods!
Grille is plugged, but haven't gone as far as replacing
panels. I would think aero mods would only benefit much
if you spent a lot of time at higher speeds, most of my
travels are below 40mph.
Thanks for your input, Lee.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jason, sounds like a fun project.
There was a recent discussion on this list about solar panels. Search the
archives at: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Electro Auto is a reputable supplier of both AC and DC equipment. They are
part of this list and have been in business for many, many years.
Another source of AC equipment is Metric Mind www.metricmind.com This is
where I purchased my AC system for the New Beetle www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
There are many Porsche conversions. It is touted as a good lightweight car
to convert. Make sure you have a Porsche that is free of rust. Check out
the EValbum at www.evalbum.com there will be pictures and links to many
Porsche conversions. If you search the archive there were questions about a
conversion a couple of months ago.
There is also an FAQ listed at www.evparts.com/faq
Take a look at these sources, spend some time digging into them. You will
find a lot of your questions answered and you will undoubtedly come up with
a lot more new questions.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Franzman
Sent: February 24, 2007 11:39 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Questions on EV
Hi, my name is Jason Franzman, I am a freshman in a Junior College and
I am looking into a engineering major and will hopefully be transfering to
UC Berkley. I am new in to this list and in my research. I am sure before
long you will be bored and annoyed by all my questions. I am extremely
interested in converting a car into an EV for many reasons. First and for
most, my goal is to save the enviroment and to do this effectively I need
the car to reach a sufficent range of about 150 miles on one charge. I am
looking into an AC converting kit on Electro Automotive specifically the
porsche 914 AC kit. It costs about 13K not including batteries or the body
but it will reach about 150 miles on one charge and can go up to 100 mph.
They advise that I use lead batteries but I am also looking into either
Lithium Ion but most likely Nickel Metal Hydride. Also I am looking into
solar panels which I will fit onto the roof, trunk and hood since they are
so flat.
The car will have a significant down
time after 60 miles since Berkely is only 60 miles from my house and will be
able to charge for about 7 or so hours before I return home. I am looking
into the hypothetical best car that I can build and then from there I will
downgrade based on the money.
To tell you the
truth I have about a million questions that I can think of to ask based on
my ideas. Some specific questions are will the solar panels( so far I can
only find ones that do about 6-8% that can bend enough to put on a car)
generate enough electricity to justify the money spent? What do you think
about the choice of car? What is one of the lightest cars with the most
surface area (for solar panels) and most efficent drive trains in you
opinion? Is a kit a good way to go and my last question:
is the Electro Automotive Company I mentioned earlier a reliable company?
I am really excited to learn that there are other people who care about
the world around them and are willing to do something about it. The main
question that I have is what do you think of my plan and do you have any
advice that can help my pursuit. Any help would be appreciated and thanks.
Jason Franzman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark is definitely right about a couple of things in my opinion:
1. Show no prejudice.
If EV's are to compete or surpass ICE vehicles, then drive them hard and
develop ways of correcting any shortcomings. That's my plan. When my new
pack arrives for the Beetle tomorrow (weather permitting) I'm going to drive
that car like I stole it. Ok...maybe not that bad, but certainly the way I
drive my other cars.
2. Scrape off the EV sticker.
I already drive sedately enough. That is to say, I usually obey the speed
limit. In the DC Metro area that tends to piss a lot of people off and I
spend a lot of time in the right lane. I'm not about to let people assume
that the reason I'm driving slower than they are is because the car CAN'T do
it, not because I WON'T do it.
Of course, I'll be sure to show off the drive train at every opportunity. At
my job with Northrop Grumman people already refer to me as the "mad
scientist". One guy said "you really think 15 years ahead of your time". I
told him that sadly, I'm thinking almost 100 years before my time. I'm just
trying to apply modern technology to the method. We also have a local car
show every Monday during daylight savings time. I intend to bring the car
there for show and tell.
Rich
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My teenage daughters have already stated that they
never want to drive a gasoline powered car. Things are looking better,
but....
Dave Cover
Girls and their love of horses...
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more
.then map the best route!
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Frank John
>I thought that design was for an 8 volt battery?
It was; but the same thing works for 6v, with the appropriate zeners.
> This is a basic question, but won't doubling-up on lamps just cause more
> losses or will it cause extra voltage drop, as well?
6v batteries have about twice the amphours of 12v batteries. So, you need twice
the current to balance them. Since I alread had the parts, I used two #PR2
lamps per battery to double the current that they could shunt.
The 12v version used two 6.2v or 6.8v 5w zeners. A 6v version could use two
3.3v or 3.6v zeners, but you'll find such low voltage zeners don't work very
well. It's better to use a single 6.2v or 6.8v zener with a lamp in series;
then put two of these circuits in parallel to get double the current.
There are lots of other ways to do it. This method is just the cheapest and
easiest (and so the most likely to actually get done)!
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have some Airpax breakers, and they DO indeed mount with 6/32 screws. I
don't think it's a misprint.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Breaker mounting
> Eduardo Kaftanski said: "I bought a breaker from the surplus site. An
Airpax
> 250A 160V. Problem is I cant find the right screw to fix it to the front
> mounting holes... Tried 5mm and 9/16 and both are the right diameter but
the
> wrong pitch...
>
> Web site says '# 6-32' but I cant find that around here... Any
> other name for it so I can find it?
>
> [Mick says:] I'll bet #6-32 is a misprint. I'm pretty sure I've used the
> identical breaker for some of my solar electric control systems. I believe
> the mounting screws are #10-32. That is 3/16" diameter (or close to 5mm),
> whereas a #6 screw is less than 1/8" diameter (closer to 3mm). #10 screws
> are available with a coarse thread (24 threads per inch) and a fine thread
> (32 threads per inch). I think you need the fine thread #10-32. Perhaps
the
> supplier of that breaker would throw some in an envelope for you.
>
> Mick Abraham
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date: 2/24/2007
8:14 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You stated about generators ..
"I'm doing 5kw, 100lb ones on order for sale at
$1600 for the Freedom EV if anyone wants one, 48vdc to
120vdc nom, e mail me offlist.
I would like some info for my 48 volt Metro
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 24, 2007, at 10:34 PM, James Massey wrote:
1) Batteries - instead of shortening the floor pan to match the 'tub'
of the buggy, he is thinking to lengthen the 'tub' by the 12" or so
that would be needed to match the floor length - and using this length
for a row of batteries across behind the seats.
If he is good with glass it might be easier. Full length buggy bodies
are available. The new cost (and shipping) is usually enough to
convince a person to repair the body they have. I bought my buggy back
in 1992 as a basket case, but the body was sitting on the already
shortened pan. There is 4 important tubes in the tunnel that you have
to cut around and reconnect (clutch, throttle, 2 e-brake.) Directions
are available on the web, but you need a good welder. The center tunnel
is the frame!
2) Motors and axles - twin motors (6.7" to 8", depending on what we
can find) set up in a manner similar to 'gone postal'. Motors parallel
to the axles, belt driven with a custom center arrangement. Maybe
Subaru axles? Anyone have any ideas? The VW has axles that are splined
on one end and a T or spade shape on the other (out of the car, so I
got a look), doesn't look like it would be simple to use those! The
alternative (if he can turn up a good gearbox cheaply) is to use a
single motor like Paul.
You are describing a swing axle, axle setup. (there must be a better
way to write that :-) These transaxles should be available used for a
modest cost almost anywhere in the world. They are tough, generally the
only issue is that the 1st gear syncro doesn't work very well (and EVs
don't generally need 1st anyway.) A Beetle IRS suspension system with
double jointed rear axles and CV joints is available. This would allow
everything VW to bolt on at the wheels if you go a custom box route.
As always, all comments welcome (good and bad).
Paul, is your Prestolite motor 7.2" diameter and 16 inches long? Just
trying to get a feel for what he will need to match your performance.
Also, I see a couple of batteries peeking out in your motor shot on
your web page, but where did the other 8 go?
I have one under each side just in front of the rear tires, on either
side of the transaxle. Likely those are the ones you spotted. On both
sides of the car I sunk 3 batteries into the floor. A 11 inch wide by
21 inch long section was cut out of the floor, starting under the front
seats, and lowered 3 inches. Welding to the thin floor can be a bit
exciting but it puts 6 batteries down low and well centered (major
handling improvement.) The last 2 batteries are in front where the
stock fuel tank was located. That gives me a total of 10 Optimas, and a
finished vehicle weight of only 1420 lb. Some photos of the buggy apart
are at:
<http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/buggy.htm>
You have the motor right. Its your basic old Prestolite MTC-4001. Tough
and reliable, its larger than needed for such a light EV. The motor
never gets hot.
The Buggy is not super fast, but the performance is quite respectable.
I have the same horsepower as a stock 1600cc duel port engine in a car
that weighs 400 lb. less. The buggy body is not very aerodynamic so the
city range is considerably better than the freeway range.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's allot of great experimentation going on in this forum:
http://www.gassavers.org/index.php
Some of the aero improvements like underbody trays can have less impact than
one might think vs. others like grille blocking which tyipcally works
better. The bottom line on most of it seems to be that reducing frontal
area and making it as clean as possible typically has the greatest impact on
reducing drag.
- Kip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee - thank you very much. I've got some parts on order to build the 12 volt
version for my e-bike and will try some of these with the spares. Our
household PV system uses Concorde 6 volt AGM's so it'll be easy to experiment.
Frank
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 12:12:53 PM
Subject: Re: 6V AGM regulator design
From: Frank John
>I thought that design was for an 8 volt battery?
It was; but the same thing works for 6v, with the appropriate zeners.
> This is a basic question, but won't doubling-up on lamps just cause more
> losses or will it cause extra voltage drop, as well?
6v batteries have about twice the amphours of 12v batteries. So, you need twice
the current to balance them. Since I alread had the parts, I used two #PR2
lamps per battery to double the current that they could shunt.
The 12v version used two 6.2v or 6.8v 5w zeners. A 6v version could use two
3.3v or 3.6v zeners, but you'll find such low voltage zeners don't work very
well. It's better to use a single 6.2v or 6.8v zener with a lamp in series;
then put two of these circuits in parallel to get double the current.
There are lots of other ways to do it. This method is just the cheapest and
easiest (and so the most likely to actually get done)!
--
Lee Hart
____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just checked my Airpax breaker ( 250 A, 125V) and it mounts with 10-32
screws. I bought it from a surplus place a few months ago.
I also checked on the Airpax site - all breakers in the series JAE, JRE, and
JLE use 10-32 mounting screws. Mine is a JLM series. I would be surprised
if a large and relatively heavy breaker were mounted with 6-32 screws.
Maybe Joseph's breakers are a smaller size.
Phil
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Breaker mounting
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:08:18 -0800
I have some Airpax breakers, and they DO indeed mount with 6/32 screws. I
don't think it's a misprint.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Breaker mounting
> Eduardo Kaftanski said: "I bought a breaker from the surplus site. An
Airpax
> 250A 160V. Problem is I cant find the right screw to fix it to the front
> mounting holes... Tried 5mm and 9/16 and both are the right diameter but
the
> wrong pitch...
>
> Web site says '# 6-32' but I cant find that around here... Any
> other name for it so I can find it?
>
> [Mick says:] I'll bet #6-32 is a misprint. I'm pretty sure I've used the
> identical breaker for some of my solar electric control systems. I
believe
> the mounting screws are #10-32. That is 3/16" diameter (or close to
5mm),
> whereas a #6 screw is less than 1/8" diameter (closer to 3mm). #10
screws
> are available with a coarse thread (24 threads per inch) and a fine
thread
> (32 threads per inch). I think you need the fine thread #10-32. Perhaps
the
> supplier of that breaker would throw some in an envelope for you.
>
> Mick Abraham
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date:
2/24/2007
8:14 PM
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:25:52 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 23 Feb 2007 at 20:41, Charles Whalen wrote:
>
>> The other thing I am disappointed about is the big sticker-shock $11k price,
>> which caused me to gasp and almost fall out of my chair when I first heard
>> about it last summer.
>
>Not to be too negative, but I have to say that over 40 years of watching the
>EV business, I've seen a typical sequence of events occur again and again,
>with only minor variations.
A very interesting read, on the investing side, thanks for this summary.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why do that when they are now free?
That was the point.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 7:56 am, DM3 wrote:
You can get a copy of all of Teslas patents in a book:
"The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla" by Jim Glenn
mario
> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 20:49:31 -0800
From: Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Three pages of original Tesla electrical patents from the late
1800's
here!
Three pages of original Tesla electrical patents from the late 1800's
here!
http://www.google.com/patents?num=100&q=tesla&btnG=Search+Patents&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1776&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1934
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 7:56 am, DM3 wrote:
> > You can get a copy of all of Teslas patents in a book:
> > "The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla" by Jim Glenn
> Why do that when they are now free?
> That was the point.
Uh, because you can't print out the patent from Google's patent search
results.
You can print a page or two or a diagram or two, but it doesn't let you
print the whole thing.
Try it yourself.
If there's a workaround other than Alt-PrintScreen, please advise.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:39:29PM -0500, Phil Marino wrote:
> I just checked my Airpax breaker ( 250 A, 125V) and it mounts with 10-32
> screws. I bought it from a surplus place a few months ago.
>
> I also checked on the Airpax site - all breakers in the series JAE, JRE,
> and JLE use 10-32 mounting screws. Mine is a JLM series. I would be
> surprised if a large and relatively heavy breaker were mounted with 6-32
> screws. Maybe Joseph's breakers are a smaller size.
Thanks to all for the input. I found some long screws that fit (dont ask what
they were) and I used a dremel tool to cut them. Its now mounted :)
What brings me to the next question:
I am installing the breaker, some relays and contactors inside a PVC box,
normally used for exterior 220volts instalations.
-Should I make sure its sealed? Or the other way around, should I mount a small
fan to ventilate it?
And... Can I install the amperimeter shunt inside? or does it get hot in
operation? (Max 400amps, continiuos 100amp)
Thanks.
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
http://ev.nn.cl | Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The shunt will not get hot at it's rated currents.
From: Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: [EV] Re: Breaker mounting
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:31:17 -0300
On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 01:39:29PM -0500, Phil Marino wrote:
> I just checked my Airpax breaker ( 250 A, 125V) and it mounts with 10-32
> screws. I bought it from a surplus place a few months ago.
>
> I also checked on the Airpax site - all breakers in the series JAE, JRE,
> and JLE use 10-32 mounting screws. Mine is a JLM series. I would be
> surprised if a large and relatively heavy breaker were mounted with 6-32
> screws. Maybe Joseph's breakers are a smaller size.
Thanks to all for the input. I found some long screws that fit (dont ask
what
they were) and I used a dremel tool to cut them. Its now mounted :)
What brings me to the next question:
I am installing the breaker, some relays and contactors inside a PVC
box,
normally used for exterior 220volts instalations.
-Should I make sure its sealed? Or the other way around, should I mount a
small
fan to ventilate it?
And... Can I install the amperimeter shunt inside? or does it get hot in
operation? (Max 400amps, continiuos 100amp)
Thanks.
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
http://ev.nn.cl | Yo.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Uh, because you can't print out the patent from Google's patent search
> results.
> You can print a page or two or a diagram or two, but it doesn't let you
> print the whole thing.
> Try it yourself.
> If there's a workaround other than Alt-PrintScreen, please advise.
>
When I want to save something that I can't "right-click" or get ahold
of any other way, I visit the site with Internet Explorer, open
"Internet Options", go to the History section, open "View Files", then
copy it from there. You might try that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A much better choice would be the A123. 50 cells would be 115 Ah by 4 to get
to 14.4 volts is 200 cells. Take a look at this
_http://www.a123systems.com/html/a123racing/rcdevkitspecs.pdf_
(http://www.a123systems.com/html/a123racing/rcdevkitspecs.pdf)
Note under Cycle life performance, 100% DOD, various temperatures
At a discharge of 1C at 25 degrees C 1000 cycles and only down 95%
They weigh more and are a little larger but the trade off is well worth it.
The A123 have a lot more performance and life cycles.
Don your figures look right to me. I wonder what are the price of the Sanyo
cells? If you take 1400 dollars and divide by 215 that comes out about 6.50 a
cell. This would be with no added cost for the BMS or case. The 1400 is close
to what the Valence 100 Ah battery cost already done.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 2/24/2007 2:08:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi Patrick, looks good. I am happy you are doing this.
The costs look very similar to the costs of the Valence U24 batteries, but
this is at your most conservative price.
I am getting a different energy density. Here are my calcs:
55 cells to get 115 Ah by 4 cells to get 14.8V is 219 cells.
219 cells at 0.0465 kg is 10.18kg = 22.4lbs
This gives a gravimetric energy density of approx 162 Wh/kg which matches
close the spec of 167 Wh/kg
A few other questions:
1) as you stated in other email notes, will this include a BMS for
balancing, over charge and over discharge?
2) any idea of the number of life cycles to 80% DOD? The specs state 500,
is this what you think they will do?
3) any thought given to using the A123 batteries?
thanks for your work.
Don Cameron
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Andrews
Sent: February 24, 2007 1:30 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: 14.4v 115 amp/hour Battery Juice
One of the posters suggested I configure a standard battery pack that will
retrofit in most EV's.
This battery would be 14.4v @ 115a/h the package would be 10" x 8" x 8"
weigh 12 lbs and cost around 1400$ +/- 400$. I haven't put together a
definite price and will try and to configure batteries for all of your
specific needs. Hope this will give you and idea of the size and price.
Cells are Sanyo UR18650F the spec can be found at:
http://sanyo.wslogic.com/pdf/pdfs/UR18650F.pdf
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do have one criticism: The Hawker meltdown incident is completely glossed
over. Perhaps your original telling of that tale could be linked at the page?
It's a cautionary tale every builder should know and keep to heart.
Jim
____________________________________________________________________________________
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:29:24 -0800
I'm interested in this formula as well. I have fairly large tires
275/60/15 - about 10 inches wide and I'm thinking about changing them to
a narrower tire. Would my money be well spent here?
John Grigg
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
Hi,
Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR? I need to buy new tires
for my electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options. I
assume that the skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what measureable
percentage? Is there measureable data or a formulae for width, are we
talking about 5% range difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a
percent? When wider tires are used there's obviously a larger contact
patch area but the pressure to the road per square inch is decreased so
it may not be a huge percentage.
Best Regards,
Mark
A lot if people seem to think that narrower tires would have lower rolling
resistance, but I've never seen any real data ( or, even logical reasoning)
that shows that.
To me, it seems like a wider tire would deflect less for the same load and
air pressure, and might have lower rolling resistance because of that. But,
that's just a guess.
As to the tire pressure on the road, it is almost exactly equal to the air
pressure in the tire, so that is not particularly dependent on the tire
width, just the air pressure.
So, for the same tire pressure and load, a wider tire will have a wider and
shorter contact patch than a narrower tire, but the area of the patches will
be essentially the same for both tires.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree completely. One should never invest in any EV-related venture more
than one can comfortably afford to lose, because as you point out, the
history of the last 40 years (and longer) would indicate that the odds are
more than likely that one will lose at least some and quite possibly all of
one's investment.
Charles Whalen
On Saturday, February 24, 2007 5:25 PM, David Roden wrote:
On 23 Feb 2007 at 20:41, Charles Whalen wrote:
The other thing I am disappointed about is the big sticker-shock $11k
price,
which caused me to gasp and almost fall out of my chair when I first
heard
about it last summer.
Not to be too negative, but I have to say that over 40 years of watching
the
EV business, I've seen a typical sequence of events occur again and again,
with only minor variations.
The EV builder starts out with the best of intentions - to create a
capable
EV at a competitive (or even mass appeal) price. He develops a good first
prototype. He sends out some PR, places small ads in specialty magazines,
and (these days) puts up a website. He thus amasses a decent list of
interested potential purchasers. Based on that list and a fairly
impressive
prototype, he rounds up a few investors. He rents a nice workshop and
hires
a few technicians.
Now the project picks up speed. They're solving technical problems,
building more prototypes. They start taking these prototypes to EVents.
That's where you see one - perhaps at a Tour de Sol - and meet the
creator.
He's smart, informed, enthusastic. He has a fine product and you can't
wait
to buy one, especially since the price is only a little higher than an
equivalent ICEV.
A couple of years go by. The project is getting closer to production.
But
now they're discovering hidden costs they never imagined, perhaps related
to
legislative compliance and legal concerns. Instead of adding marginal
costs
to an existing operation, as would be the case for an established
automaker
or other corporation, they have to bring in new employees or consultants,
or
purchase outside services, to handle them. And unlike Toyota or Honda,
they
can't afford to swallow the extra costs for now, and recover them 5 to 7
years into production.
To satisfy their investors, they have to build these costs into the
projected list price, which doubles or even triples. When they start
contacting their potential buyers to let them know what the true purchase
price will be, the list suddenly shrinks.
Now their first year sales don't look so good. Their investors lose
interest or even threaten to take over the company. With no real source
of
revenue, funding dries up. The company has to lay off most of the hired
techs, dispersing their knowledge and losing much of the project's forward
momentum. The owner sells off or parts out some of the earlier prototypes
(if they still exist) to raise cash.
Pretty soon the owner finds himself working alone in his workshop.
Eventually he can't pay the rent, so he moves operations back to his own
garage. Production looks farther away than ever. He grows disheartened.
Working on the EV isn't much fun any more, and other interests take over.
Things get quiet. The owner stops sending updates to the purchasers' list
and to the few remaining investors.
Remembering that prototype and the smart owner, you keep hoping something
will happen. You keep checking the website to see what's up, but now it
never changes. Soon the "what's new" section has 2-year-old news
releases,
and the list of EVents at which the prototype has appeared ends with one
that took place 3 years ago.
A year or two more goes by. If you're still watching, you see the
remaining
prototype and other bits auctioned off (these days it's usually on Ebay)
as
the company quietly folds. If you're lucky, you're the high bidder and
now
you have a sophisticated (but orphaned) EV.
Perhaps a year later, you try to visit the project's creator, the smart
and
personable fellow you met 5 or 6 years ago at the Tour de Sol. But he
doesn't answer the door. There are no EVs anywhere to be seen, and
there's
a 15 year old Chevy pickup parked in his driveway.
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not projecting this end for Vectrix, nor do I
claim that this is the inevitable end for any EV developer (though I've
seen
similar things happen many times). Some lucky EV developers are
independently wealthy, and can carry on with their hobby for many years.
Even for those who aren't, these errors can be avoided.
I don't know what goes on at Vectrix. I certainly wish them the best.
I'd
love to see them succeed.
But history shows that investing in an EV startup is risky. If I
invested
in an EV company, I think I'd do so mainly as a "social good," not for
profit. I'd consider it a pleasant surprise if I ever got my principal
back, and a nice bonus if I ever made any real income from my investment.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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