EV Digest 6489
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV vs. ICE
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: contactor controllers
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Questions on EV
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) White Zombie Shirts
by Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Airlabcorp nmih batteries
by Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Looking for Electric Mower Suggestions for 1 acre
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Well, how is the AltairNano Pack working?
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EV's: Rich man's hobby?
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: KillaCycle YouTube video over 33,000 views
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Some GREAT EV Videos on WNBC
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Well, how is the AltairNano Pack working?
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Wilde certainly pegged where we need to be when it comes to EV's.
Of course, if the big three (or maybe just Toyota!) ever came out
with a true EV, you know they are going to price it so high that only
the
Hollywood Hoi Polloi could afford it and it will be hopelessly
complex. The EV1 was a great car but how many of us could afford it?
And who could service it??
My never too humble two cents worth is that the way this is going to
happen is with someone like Jerry or Lee Hart putting together a
three wheeled vehicle that can
fly under the radar screen of the Federales for a while and get a
foothold in the marketplace. Maybe it has a contactor controller and
a CVT similar to the old Freeways, but
more stable? Or perhaps it would be light enough to run well with a
72V system electronically.
I fantasize about this way too much.
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly.
And that was common with drum controllers 90+years ago.
My 1921 Milburn Electric Model 27L for example has typically one or two
intermediate contacts made between speeds. Between 2nd and 3rd speed,
there's at least FIVE intermediate contacts which occur as the contacts
slide. And there's 12 parallel rotating circuits with sliding "fingers" to
help make simultaneous or near simultaneous changes. Essentially, with
4speeds forward, 2 reverse, plus OFF and plug braking, it's like having a
12-pole, 7-throw switch, plus at least 8 intermediate transitory
states...i.e. more like a 12P15T switch.
-Myles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Bill Dennis
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:17 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: contactor controllers
>
>
> Though not a series/parallel switcher, here's one posted by Lee Hart
> recently that is very efficient:
>
> A big rotary arm moves a sliding contact over the bolt heads to
> make/break connections. Arcing occurs on the edges, not the faces of the
> contacts.
>
> The trick is that there are intermediate contacts between positions. The
> shorting bar is wide enough to short two adjacent contacts as it moves.
> The intermediate contacts have resistors in series, to always provide a
> path for the current as the switch is moved.
>
> Example (view with a fixed-width font like Courier):
>
> ||
> 12v__________O ||---------to motor
> ||
> __/\/\__O \movable shorting bar
> |
> 24v_|________O
>
> As the shorting bar is moved
>
> 1. the motor gets straight 12v, resistor not connected
> 2. motor gets 12v, resistor connected between 12v and 24v
> 3. motor gets 24v thru resistor
> 4. motor gets 24v direct, resistor shorted to 24v
> 5. motor gets 24v direct, resisto not connected
>
> Crude, but no arcing or noise! 100% efficient if you only pass through
> the resistive positions for a fraction of a second.
>
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> Myles Twete wrote:
> > Take a look at this 1917 patent of a drum contact controller
> whose outputs
> > drive contactor coils that in turn switch series field resistors in/out:
> >
> http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT1239840&id=ACoTAAAAEBAJ&pg=
> PP1&dq=rot
> > atable+drum+control+westinghouse
> >
> > -Myles
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 1:29 PM
> >> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >> Subject: Re: contactor controllers
> >>
> >>
> >> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>>>> 48v + startup resistor
> >>>>> 48V
> >>>>> 84V
> >>>>> 168V
> >>>>> 216V
> >>>> These are funny voltages.
> >> Tom Ward wrote:
> >>> Yes, I know it's strange. I have two banks of NiCads; the
> factory fitted
> >>> watercooled saft STM100 nicads in 4 unequal blocks and then 48V of
> >>> secondhand Alcad and Nife Nicads.
> >>> I haven't a huge amount of time so I am hoping to avoid
> dismantling the
> >>> saft blocks (I did that a few months ago to fix a waterleak
> and it took
> >>> half a day just to drop one block).
> >> OK. If you are mixing batteries, then I'd use a rectactor
> setup for your
> >> series/parallel contactor controller. It has the advantage that
> >> dissimilar packs *won't* transfer charge between them when in parallel.
> >>
> >>>> Does the field really need 120v at 10 amps? That's 1.2kw.
> >>> I am just quoting what I read in the workshop manual.
> >> Well, it's easy enough to measure its DC resistance. 120v at 10a
> >> is 12 ohms.
> >>
> >>> I must be missing something, do you mean let the driver
> directly control
> >>> the armature and field current? Isn't that a recipe for a
> broken motor?
> >> No. Current is torque. The driver uses the accelerator pedal to say how
> >> much torque he wants (based on how fast he wants to go). The controller
> >> will have a current limit circuit, so you can't demand too much; but
> >> beyond that, the driver is the boss!
> >> --
> >> Ring the bells that still can ring
> >> Forget the perfect offering
> >> There is a crack in everything
> >> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> >> --
> >> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Good question! I wasn't trying to suggest when you get a stinker battery to run
out and buy a solar panel system. However, if you propped up the lowest battery
from the day the pack was new, it would "age" more slowly, and you would be
much less likely to have a single stinker battery that robbed your range. Such
a system would also help keep your batteries in better balance, so less
equalizing (overcharging) would be needed.
Lee Hart (see post quote below) had or has a similar system that used a DC-DC
to prop up the lowest battery. He had one battery at about 1/4 capacity of the
rest, but still had his usual range. Without the system he would have had 1/4
the range. My twist on this was to use the solar panel in place of the DC-DC,
so you add a bit of energy to the pack. This will also lessen the depth of
discharge a bit and help the pack last more cycles.
Here's a good read from an old Lee Hart post:
When the pack was about 4 years old, my EV was running with normal range and
performance. But I noticed one battery was getting almost all the balancing
current. I pulled that battery, and tested its amphour capacity. It was
delivering less than 1/4th the capacity of the rest! The Balancer was
"propping it up" by charging it heavily while driving, so it was not the weak
link. I had bought a spare Concorde which was in use as my accessory 12v
battery; so I swapped the weak one with the like-new accessory battery. With
the balancer, the replacement battery was kept in balance with the rest of
the pack, despite its noticeably different characteristics. Over time, it
just got "broken in" to work just like the rest. Due to its early light-duty
usage, it is still the strongest battery in the pack.
Three years ago, I pulled my Balancer out to use in another EV. To provide
something in the meantime, I installed a set of my cheap zener-lamp
regulators. They worked, but reduced range because the weakest battery set
the maximum depth of discharge, as in most EVs. I eventually put the Balancer
back in, because range was too short with just regulator-type charger
clamping.
Then last year, one of my batteries failed open. I had no more spares, but I
did have some used Johnson Controls Dynasty UPS12-270FR batteries of similar
capacity. I replaced the bad Concorde and the weak one in the accessory
battery position with two of the lower-capacity but newer UPS batteries. I
wired them both in the propulsion pack (changing from a 132v to a 144v
system). Despite the considerably different capacity and charging
characteristics, the Balancer is keeping them all pulling as a team.
Overall, this pack is pushing 8 years old and down to about half of my
original range. What allowed me to use it at all is that the Balancer is
holding them together well enough to keep driving.
...
----- Original Message ----
From: Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:55:33 PM
Subject: Re: Questions on EV
As a thought... wouldn't it be better to replace a $100 battery, than to
prop it up with $1000 in solar panels?
> What if you used a solar panel to prop up the weakest battery in the
> string? Let's say you have 19 batteries that can go 30 miles, and 1 that
> can only go 15 miles. You can only drive the car 15 miles. You prop that
> battery up with solar panels while the car is parked all day, and get a
> few more miles. The solar panels could even help while driving, relieving
> the load on the bad battery by 5 or 10 amps. The downside is you need a
> fairly $ophisticated BMS to do this.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, when you get those shirts available, I would
like to get one as well. Will they be available
through you or someplace else? Dan Eyk
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if Air Lab Corp is producing the NMIH
battery systems yet? I read about them in EAA's
Current Events and am interested in them. Dan Eyk
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Plus our puppies would have a conflict with it.
Dogsled mower?
Mush!
Randii (off topic)
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger, at first I was not going to respond to this post because I realized
your heart was in the right place, but there is one little statement that
ate away at me and I will answer it visually. You stated: "It is rather
surprising just how long (and boring) a 10-15 second run can be for
spectators (especially the last 1/8th mi) without the audible cues of an ICE
vehicle in one lane to allow appreciation of just how quick the EV is
moving." Please watch this very brief video clip and please reconsider your
statement.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9102640944663336425&q=maniac+mazda&hl=enRoderick Wilde"Suck Amps EV Racing"www.suckamps.com----- Original
Message -----From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:08 PMSubject: RE: EV vs. ICE
(was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:>>> ICE racing has been in development for over a century. The>> EV racing
pioneers like John Wayland and Roderick Wilde, has>> been at it for less than 20 years. Do you suppose any of the>> ICE racers were in the 11's 20 years into
their early development?>> There is no doubt that the EV racing pioneers are advancing the state of> the art and learning new ways to go fast, but there is also
no doubt> that they are also benefitting from the years of ICE drag racing> experience. Making the power may be different, but getting that power> to the ground
poses similar challenges regardless of the source of> moti!
ve power and the same suspension, rear end, tire, etc. 'tricks' that> are available off the shelf for ICE racers are available to EV
racers.>> John Wayland wrote:>>> PS: Without sponsorship of any kind, anyone could reproduce>> White Zombie for about $18,000
and go out and kick $75,000>> production car butt...>> This is where I think John *proves* Chris' point (as does Rod with> mention of
the Maniac Mazda beating Vipers). The White Zombie is a> purpose-built drag racer, stripped to a minimum of creature comforts,> etc., and
running it against a production car hardly proves that EVs can> beat 'comparable' ICE vehicles. Likewise the Maniac Mazda, a completely>
gutted RX7, non-street legal (but granted, still a steel-bodied door> slammer) purpose-built drag racer just edging out a (very expensive)>
production ICE car hardly demonstrates the superiority of EVs over> 'comparable' ICEs.>> John suggests that when the Zombie races, his
competitors get their> doors blown off by a!
35 year old Datsun, but this is really misleading,> as would be the s
uggestion that the Maniac Mazda is a 28yr old RX7.> Neither of these cars is running *any* of the original drivetrain
that> came with the vehicle; the motor(s), tranny (where applicable), rear> end, wheels, tires, etc. have been
replaced with completely different> parts. When someone loses to the 'Zombie, they haven't lost to a 35> year old
Datsun, they've lost to a state-of-the-art 2007 electric racing> drivetrain wrapped in 35 year old Datsun bodywork. (I
expect John will> counter that of course the 'Zombie is a 35 year old Datsun since that's> what the registration says
;^). My opinion is that the 'Zombie (and> Maniac Mazda) are more akin to a rocket-powered funny car; sure the>
outward appearance may resemble that of some (past) production vehicle,> but no one would try to claim that losing to one
is a loss to the> production vehicle make/model.>> John mentions that one could reproduce the Zombie for about
$18K;> subtract the cost of the donor car ($1K or less?), and !
this leaves about> $17K spent on peformance mods. I've mentioned my buddy's Duramax diesel> pickup (4 door, fully-loaded
4x4); I don't know how much he's invested> in the performance mods, but it is certainly a fraction of the $17K> available
and he has run mid 12's on street tires with this daily> driver. I have no doubt that if he addressed his
traction/suspension> issues he would be running low 12's, and were he to invest a similar> amount to the $17K required
for the Zombie's performance mods he would> be running with, or beating the Zombie. It is certainly possible to> spend
far more than $17K on performance mods to an ICE vehicle and not> be able to match the performance of the Zombie, but it is
certainly not> impossible to do so.>> For as much as I consider most (if not all) of the exibition runs that> put
an EV up against an ICE at events such as the NEDRA Nationals> unfair, they are still probably the most exciting runs for
those in the> stands and are the best !
available tool for demonstrating just how quick> EVs can be.>> It is r
ather surprising just how long (and boring) a 10-15 second run> can be for spectators (especially the last 1/8th mi)
without the audible> cues of an ICE vehicle in one lane to allow appreciation of just how> quick the EV is moving. In
all fairness, this also occurs because there> are so few racers in some (many) of the NEDRA classes that it simply>
isn't possible to line up very many matches between vehicles of similar> class/performance without putting an ICE vehicle
in one lane. Problem> is that an ICE vehicle comparable to the Zombie or Maniac Mazda probably> ought to be something
from the NHRA Super Street or Super Stock classes,> not a production ICE vehicle.>> I expect that most of the
friday/saturday night races that John and Tim> run the Zombie in are probably much fairer in the sense of pitting the>
Zombie against ICE vehicles at a similar state of modification (or at> least a similar dollar investment in performance
mods), and so are much> more effective at demon!
strating the potential of EVs.>> Whether or not we are yet at the point where Evs can demonstrate> superiority over comparable ICE
vehicles may be arguable, but there is> no disputing that John, Rod, Bill, Dennis, etc. do a *huge* service for> all EVers when they get
out there and in the faces of the ICE racers> with their high performance EVs!>> Cheers,>> Roger.>>>>>>
--> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release
Date: 2/27/20073:24 PM>>
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--- Begin Message ---
To be fair I'd bet Altair has their hands full getting
enough batteries to Phoenix motors, their main
customer. Many people are clamoring for the NanoSafe
battery and I wouldn't be surprised if they can't meet
demand.
John
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <sigh>
> Until they actually produce them, and someone
> actually tests them
> out, they are just charts, graphs, and numbers on a
> web site, unfortunately.
>
> The fact that they haven't released cells to anyone
> (that we know of)
> is not a good sign. Usually, when a company has a
> nifty hot new
> product, they are very eager to get it out in the
> hands of potential
> customers. At the very least, they release samples
> to select "beta
> testers" that are in a position to publicly tout the
> marvels of the
> new product. (Like you, Sam.)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 01:47 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
>
>
> >The basic specs are all on their website:
> >
> >http://www.altairnano.com/markets_amps.html
> >
> >In a nutshell, the energy density is about halfway
> between conventional
> >Li-Ion and Lead-Acid, without the characteristic of
> thermal runaway.
> >Additionally, the raw data I have seen (I do not
> have copies and their
> >confidentiality is reasonable) indicated superior
> expulsion,
> >absorption, and life cycle performance to any
> chemical battery I know
> >of. According to their Pheonix order, the cost
> once they make it to
> >production rivals high end Lead Acid. All these
> things are GOOD for
> >Killacycle. It appears now that A123 has the edge
> in the energy density
> >department, but the nano-titanates will be
> considerabley more affordable
> >and have better expulsion and absorption (good for
> racing and fast
> >charge), and probably life cycle.
> >
> >There is 1 major drawback: You can't get them yet!
> >
> >I haven't seen a test pack yet, and I own at least
> part of that.
> >Between Godaddy's crappy hosting (making my emails
> look like spam to
> >their CEO, who wasn't there when they agreed to
> give me a test pack),
> >and my own communication inadequacies, I can't
> really blame them for
> >being cautious about what sensitive information
> they let out to a freak
> >with a scooter.
> >
> >Writing this email just now prompted me to call
> them, and I did get
> >through to the technical advisor who was there at
> the conference when
> >the test agreement was made on a handshake. He
> asked me to re-send the
> >test pack requirement parameters, and that he would
> do the "best he
> >could" with company decision makers (he impresses
> me as a technical guy
> >with a very objective unbiased thought process) at
> getting a test pack
> >to me.
> >
> >While I had him on the phone, I asked if they had
> solved the production
> >problem with the Titanate powder, and he said that
> they had
> >accomplished that breakthrough. They are still
> under exclusivity with
> >the Pheonix order, but I am requesting a pack that
> is remnant of their
> >in-house prototype testing.
> >
> >So, there is the status. I would be foolish to
> state at this time when
> >to expect a test pack, or when they will be
> available to private
> >individuals and hobbyists. I'm just trying to get
> my hands on
> >something real and test it so I can separate myth
> from fact like the
> >rest of us.
> >
> >"Life is like a box of chocolates,
> >except for those days when it tastes
> >more like total crap."
> >
> >-Sam
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> >Subject: Well, how is the AltairNano Pack working?
> >From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Mon, February 26, 2007 6:51 am
> >To: Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Hi Sam,
> >
> >Since I'm always on the lookout for hotter
> batteries for the bike
> >(and other projects) I'd really like to know more
> about these new cells.
> >
> >Can you give me the basic specifications for the
> cells or batteries?
> >
> >Thanks in advance,
> >
> >Bill Dube'
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I just wanted to point out some
figures.
I know it costs thousands of dollars to convert a donor car from scratch,
especially if you use quality components. BUT- do you guys realize that as
the population of EV's grows, they are becoming much more affordable? That
there is a growing "used EV" population and market? Yes, it's small but it's
happening. It's growing. I know because I've done it TWICE.
I paid $2500 for a nearly turn-key Beetle. It only needed batteries. $1300
later, I'm on the road. The donor car is in pretty darn good shape. It has a
dented fender and the bumper needs adjusted so it will stop drooping but
what little rust it has is under control and I'll clean it up with a little
POR15. I've seen decent gas-powered Beetles sell for between $2500-$5,000
dollars. Well I fall right in the middle.
My first EV may not count in some of your opinions. It was a Comuta-Van ex
postal truck. Top speed of 55 mph, seated 2 (if you installed the passenger
seat). But hey, I installed an onboard charger and commuted in it for a
year. I put a few thousand miles on it too. It was a truck so I hauled cargo
from Home Despot and trash to the dump. I paid $2,000.
Anyone look at the ev trading post lately? Several complete vehicles ranging
from $5 - $25k. The fact is, anyone who is ambitious enough to read a book,
read the internet and learn can build or own one of these vehicles now. It
won't be a White Zombie or a Goin' Postal but these cars will get a lot of
people to and from work and the grocery store.
Well, the family and I are off to Chipotle's for some dinner. In the
Beetle....;)
Rich A.
_________________________________________________________________
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Just think how views there would be if you had a girl in a bikini
sitting on it!
:-)
Do it for the cause!
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 3:09 pm, Bill Dube wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dRpAZci9m0
I am astounded to see that the "plasma" video of the KillaCycle has
almost 34,000 views. It is getting about 500+ views per day.
With the marvelous job that Jim Husted did on the brush rigging, we may
not be getting these fireworks again. At least we are hoping we don't.
:-)
Bill Dube'
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The browser one uses: MSIE, 'FireFox', Opera, etc. should support
Adobe Flash because the video is in Adobe Flash format.
I was able to run the embedded Flash player 9 in the pages on my
FireFox 2 browser on WindowsXP with a 1 Mbps WiFi connection.
I reordered the pages to follow the source's lead:
Part 1: New Cars Of The Future
Chuck Scarborough Reports
Electric cars could help ween ...
[Calcars phEV - 4 minutes:30 seconds]
http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=65601
Part 2: New Cars Of The Future
Chuck Scarborough Reports
A new car from Tesla goes from...
[EV History + Tesla - 3 minutes:30 seconds]
http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=70922
Interview With Tesla CEO Marti...
NewsChannel 4's Chuck Scarboro...
[CEO's personal views - 17 minutes:50 seconds]
http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=70885
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah. I really hope Phoenix Motor Cars will succeed. Looks like a great
product!
----- Original Message -----
From: "xx xx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Well, how is the AltairNano Pack working?
To be fair I'd bet Altair has their hands full getting
enough batteries to Phoenix motors, their main
customer. Many people are clamoring for the NanoSafe
battery and I wouldn't be surprised if they can't meet
demand.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,
I'm glad my post did come across as haivng my heart in the right place
;^>
I have great respect for what you racers do and achieve for all EVers;
you can be certain that if I had JW's riches (I couldn't resist, John
;^) I'd be out there doing my best to upset a NEDRA record or two.
Your video clip shows me a very interesting (!) first 1/8th mile, but I
have to stand by my statement that the last 1/8th mile can be
surprisingly boring for spectators.
I haven't made it every year, but I've been to Woodburn a few times, and
experienced this myself; out to about the 1/8th mile it is quite
exciting, but after that the cars are far enough from the stands that it
is very difficult to tell how close the cars are (or if they are even
close), and it seems like an eternity waiting for the cars to go through
the traps and the results to appear on the screens/signs.
Now, throw an ICE in one lane and suddenly there is a frame of reference
against which spectators can appreciate just what the EV is doing. The
most exciting races for me have included those of the Maniac Mazda vs a
Viper, both because the Viper provided audible cues allowing an
appreciation of the speed, etc. (the silence of an EV makes it seem like
it is effortlessly running down the track, while the sound of the ICE
trying to keep up off the line reveals just how quick the EV is really
moving), and because the Viper and MM were closely enough matched that
it wasn't really certain which would win. The EV is immediately a
length or two ahead off the line, but the ICE reels it back in over the
last 1/8th making for quite an exciting race. I think the most exciting
of these was when a shower of sparks/plasma came out under the MM
(during a shift?) somewhere between the 60ft and 1/8th mile marks... ;^>
Perhaps a race between equally well-matched 11-second Evs would prove
just as exciting to watch; unfortunately I don't think there's ever been
a pair of similar class 11-second Evs available to go head-to-head...
Watching a pair of equally matched 120V conversions take 18-25s to go
through the traps just isn't ever going to get the spectators on their
feet ;^>
I'm disappointed the electric Jr Dragsters haven't taken off, and that
they aren't allowed to run against the ICEs. I think the 1/8th mile
format is more engaging for the spectators and that the EVs would be
very (maybe too) competitive and their silence and simplicity might just
result in them becoming a very popular alternative for the present ICE
racers.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are cars out there that will solve real worl problems like the tesla
or the tzero they may be a little expensive now but thats to showcase the
performance of electrics to get people interested. Once people are
interested they will introduce cars that are economically feasible so that
more people can buy them.
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:43:31 -0800
oh please, racing is always about the money and the ego, it is neccessary
but not sufficient to have both to win.
The exceptions just prove the rule.
I wondered early on the list "are EV's just a rich man's hobby?"
Well racing them certainly is.
That EV's can go fast (for a short time) was never in doubt, ask any R/C
racer.
But let's get a reality check, how many times have I read on the list
telling people to coast to stops in their ev's, but try not to piss off too
many people doing it, going 55 when everyone else is going 70, take off the
EV sticker on the car so you don't get EVs a bad rep for being slow, etc,
etc.
If you want to change perceptions, build EVs that actually solve the real
world problems of range, maintaince, charging, conversion cost and effort,
etc, etc.
jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Chris, I'm going to have to side with GW and Jim on this one. I also
noticed that you didn't mention my Mazda which was doing 11 flat 8 years
ago and blowing the doors off the quickest production car in the world at
the time. Even the 2000 Dodge Viper Hennessy Venom with it's 800
horsepower and price tag of over a quarter of a million dollars could only
beat it by 3/10th of a second. But hey this was all a very long time ago
and so old school. Chris. I think you need to spend more time at the track
and find out just how much money these gas racers really dump into their
cars. I built my car in my yard because my shop at the time was an 8 by 10
foot shed and would only hold my tool boxes and my compressor. You can
talk to Rudman and Damon from Alltrax about that. They were there and
helped work on the car as well as a good friend who flew in from New
Zealand, Justin Southam, just to help out. Yes I was able to get sponsored
batteries and I did borrow several controllers. You just do what you can
to get by. It isn't about the money at all. It is about trying new ideas,
about innovations. These cars that are out there changing perceptions are
not the big buck race cars you imagine. In fact that is exactly what the
whole point is, to change peoples perceptions on electric cars. When the
sport eventually gets popular you will see the big bucks people come in
and the times will drop by incredible amounts. We aren't waiting for the
batteries any more. We are just waiting until we can afford them :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Husted"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Hey Chris, all
I think EVeryone would have to concede that the best
EV out there can't take down the best gasser (yet)lol.
I tend to side with GW on this one though. More often
than not WZ wins it's runs against average track
racers. Add to that the fact of when WZ ran it's
first bracket race, the other racers were telling Tim
he was in the wrong lane because he was in the big dog
lane. Zombie was the slowest big dog but big enough
bite, hehe.
Maybe you weren't there when Tim made a little boy cry
when Tim ate up the boys uncle in a mach1 (plasma boy
can confirm this)just smoked him. Another time that
sticks out for me was at the truck stop after the
Hooter girl show and shine 8^o. One of the guys had a
low 11 sec car, but he walked away from Tim's ride
with utter respect. I also believe that for
KillaCycle to attend an "all Harley" race and run with
the boys at least proves EV's can run with the pack
(no pun intended).
As far as costs go I'm sure that their are ICE racers
throwing equal bucks on their machines. Waylands got
a lot of things sponsored but John's a good stewert of
that sponsorship, well except for that sex scandal,
drug bust, petty B&E, anyway bad example, lets take
Bill. Even with his A123's I bet he's in ballpark of
what others are spending. If nothing else looking at
my new HotRod magazine I see a really good write up on
Bills bike 8^)
I'm actually new to the whole race thing really, but
ol Wayland's got me hooked. I think Wayland said it
best after Ted West's run... "Ted West just ran a 12.3
at 103 MPH in a battey powered car, Take that gasoline
people"! I have it on tape 8^) I will admit I may be
a little bias on my oppinion 8^)
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
> The day the majority of hotrodders realize an
electric vehicle can kick
> their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will
start to really take
> off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first
time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was
new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level
of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the
excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not
go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if
not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult
to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John
Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current
Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not
to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/28/07 3:59:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<<
Your video clip shows me a very interesting (!) first 1/8th mile, but I
have to stand by my statement that the last 1/8th mile can be
surprisingly boring for spectators.
I haven't made it every year, but I've been to Woodburn a few times, and
experienced this myself; out to about the 1/8th mile it is quite
exciting, but after that the cars are far enough from the stands that it
is very difficult to tell how close the cars are (or if they are even
close), and it seems like an eternity waiting for the cars to go through
the traps and the results to appear on the screens/signs.
Now, throw an ICE in one lane and suddenly there is a frame of reference
against which spectators can appreciate just what the EV is doing. The
most exciting races for me have included those of the Maniac Mazda vs a
Viper, both because the Viper provided audible cues allowing an
appreciation of the speed, etc. (the silence of an EV makes it seem like
it is effortlessly running down the track, while the sound of the ICE
trying to keep up off the line reveals just how quick the EV is really
moving), and because the Viper and MM were closely enough matched that
it wasn't really certain which would win. The EV is immediately a
length or two ahead off the line, but the ICE reels it back in over the
last 1/8th making for quite an exciting race. I think the most exciting
of these was when a shower of sparks/plasma came out under the MM
(during a shift?) somewhere between the 60ft and 1/8th mile marks... ;^>
Perhaps a race between equally well-matched 11-second Evs would prove
just as exciting to watch; unfortunately I don't think there's ever been
a pair of similar class 11-second Evs available to go head-to-head...
Watching a pair of equally matched 120V conversions take 18-25s to go
through the traps just isn't ever going to get the spectators on their
feet ;^>
**J.Wayland had egged me on a good part of last year to race HEADS UP so
Roger if he will put the Zombie next to my S10(we are both in the same nedra
class) at a Nedra race this year you will see 2 11sec evs go head to
head.Looking
foward to racing John W.HEADS UP. Dennis Berube s10 out of the paint booth
next tuesday.
I'm disappointed the electric Jr Dragsters haven't taken off, and that
they aren't allowed to run against the ICEs. I think the 1/8th mile
format is more engaging for the spectators and that the EVs would be
very (maybe too) competitive and their silence and simplicity might just
result in them becoming a very popular alternative for the present ICE
racers.
Cheers,
Roger.
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The original pack is doing fine. We can't tell the difference from
when it was brand new. All 880 cells are still at full capacity.
These cells are like "Mr Fusion" in the movie "Back to the Future".
A123 M1 cells have a 10,000 cycle life under modest discharge at room
temperature to 50% remaining capacity, not just a mere "1000 cycles."
At the elevated temperatures we are running, with the high-rate
discharges, we wouldn't expect the full 10,000 cycles, but we would
not be surprised by 1,000 cycles. That would be about five years of
bracket racing here in Colorado.
We are building a new pack for three reasons:
1) We want more HP, so the new pack is 9 cells wide instead of just 8
cells wide. Should be able to put out 1500 amps instead of "just" 1350 amps.
2) We want to have a spare pack. We can then push the pack harder
than we dared before, knowing we have a back-up if we break something.
3) We want to install heaters to temperature-control the pack. We get
maximum power at 70 to 75 C. Without heaters, we could not hold the
pack at optimal temperature between runs if there was any delay.
Bill Dube'
Dennis (T.M.) wrote:
Bill,With 123s 1000 cycle life, Why are you building a new pack?How many
cycles did you get? D.Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks buy cars for emotional reasons, not practical reasons. A
high-performance EV will sell well (as proven by the Tesla.) Thus,
that is the marketing approach that will make EVs popular.
If you think about it, if folks don't buy EVs, then they won't make a
difference.
Bill Dube'
At 05:00 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
There are cars out there that will solve real worl problems like the
tesla or the tzero they may be a little expensive now but thats to
showcase the performance of electrics to get people interested. Once
people are interested they will introduce cars that are economically
feasible so that more people can buy them.
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:43:31 -0800
oh please, racing is always about the money and the ego, it is
neccessary but not sufficient to have both to win.
The exceptions just prove the rule.
I wondered early on the list "are EV's just a rich man's hobby?"
Well racing them certainly is.
That EV's can go fast (for a short time) was never in doubt, ask
any R/C racer.
But let's get a reality check, how many times have I read on the
list telling people to coast to stops in their ev's, but try not to
piss off too many people doing it, going 55 when everyone else is
going 70, take off the EV sticker on the car so you don't get EVs a
bad rep for being slow, etc, etc.
If you want to change perceptions, build EVs that actually solve
the real world problems of range, maintaince, charging, conversion
cost and effort, etc, etc.
jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Chris, I'm going to have to side with GW and Jim on this one. I
also noticed that you didn't mention my Mazda which was doing 11
flat 8 years ago and blowing the doors off the quickest production
car in the world at the time. Even the 2000 Dodge Viper Hennessy
Venom with it's 800 horsepower and price tag of over a quarter of
a million dollars could only beat it by 3/10th of a second. But
hey this was all a very long time ago and so old school. Chris. I
think you need to spend more time at the track and find out just
how much money these gas racers really dump into their cars. I
built my car in my yard because my shop at the time was an 8 by 10
foot shed and would only hold my tool boxes and my compressor. You
can talk to Rudman and Damon from Alltrax about that. They were
there and helped work on the car as well as a good friend who flew
in from New Zealand, Justin Southam, just to help out. Yes I was
able to get sponsored batteries and I did borrow several
controllers. You just do what you can to get by. It isn't about
the money at all. It is about trying new ideas, about innovations.
These cars that are out there changing perceptions are not the big
buck race cars you imagine. In fact that is exactly what the whole
point is, to change peoples perceptions on electric cars. When the
sport eventually gets popular you will see the big bucks people
come in and the times will drop by incredible amounts. We aren't
waiting for the batteries any more. We are just waiting until we
can afford them :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Husted"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Hey Chris, all
I think EVeryone would have to concede that the best
EV out there can't take down the best gasser (yet)lol.
I tend to side with GW on this one though. More often
than not WZ wins it's runs against average track
racers. Add to that the fact of when WZ ran it's
first bracket race, the other racers were telling Tim
he was in the wrong lane because he was in the big dog
lane. Zombie was the slowest big dog but big enough
bite, hehe.
Maybe you weren't there when Tim made a little boy cry
when Tim ate up the boys uncle in a mach1 (plasma boy
can confirm this)just smoked him. Another time that
sticks out for me was at the truck stop after the
Hooter girl show and shine 8^o. One of the guys had a
low 11 sec car, but he walked away from Tim's ride
with utter respect. I also believe that for
KillaCycle to attend an "all Harley" race and run with
the boys at least proves EV's can run with the pack
(no pun intended).
As far as costs go I'm sure that their are ICE racers
throwing equal bucks on their machines. Waylands got
a lot of things sponsored but John's a good stewert of
that sponsorship, well except for that sex scandal,
drug bust, petty B&E, anyway bad example, lets take
Bill. Even with his A123's I bet he's in ballpark of
what others are spending. If nothing else looking at
my new HotRod magazine I see a really good write up on
Bills bike 8^)
I'm actually new to the whole race thing really, but
ol Wayland's got me hooked. I think Wayland said it
best after Ted West's run... "Ted West just ran a 12.3
at 103 MPH in a battey powered car, Take that gasoline
people"! I have it on tape 8^) I will admit I may be
a little bias on my oppinion 8^)
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
> The day the majority of hotrodders realize an
electric vehicle can kick
> their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will
start to really take
> off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first
time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was
new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level
of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the
excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not
go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if
not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult
to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John
Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current
Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not
to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date:
2/24/2007 8:14 PM
_________________________________________________________________
Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping
http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081805
--- End Message ---
