Re: [EVDL] Does anyone really think Tesla can last?

2019-05-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I have a huge amount of respect for Elon Musk, Tesla, Tesla's vehicles, and
what they've done to advance the EV cause... But Elon Musk is both Tesla's
biggest strength and their biggest liability...  Musk should be kept as a
creative force in Tesla, NOT pushed out the way Apple did with Steve Jobs
in 1985.


Well said, David! I couldn't agree more.

Tesla's cars are wonderful. That's what convinces the public to buy 
them! Tesla is almost single-handedly swinging the world from ICEs to EVs.


But Wall Street doesn't care if the product is any good. They just want 
it to make MONEY! And Tesla isn't making money. Musk is a creative 
genius; but he's no engineer, and no businessman. That worries Wall 
Street, and attracts vultures in the government and other auto 
companies. It's a weakness they can, and *will* exploit.


Jobs had Wozniak at Apple; as a team, they made it happen. Nikola Tesla 
had George Westinghouse; again, they needed each other to succeed.


Elon Musk needs to find geniuses with the engineering and business 
talents needed for Tesla to succeed. Then take Lee Iacocca's advice for 
getting things done: "I hire people brighter than me, then I get out of 
their way."


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Re: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile

2019-05-22 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

It seems that it's cheaper for taking long road trips to buy a Prius
Prime vs a pricier Tesla or Bolt with a 60kwh battery pack and pay an
average of 28c per kWh average on the road at level 3 fast charging
stations.  We have shorter range cheaper EVs (Spark bought 1 year old
for $14k and Leaf $9.2k). At $3 a gallon/50 = 6c per mile and at 28c
per kWh / 4 (ac meas)= 7c per mile in a long range EV (also have to
pay $40k for the car with the 60kwh or so battery pack). Maybe it's
better for the environment to drive a long range EV but for your
wallet the Prius Prime and a shorter range EV for 90% miles local
trips makes more sense.


That's my strategy, Mark. I've been driving EVs since the 1970's, but 
they've all been short-range "around town" cars. I used them for all my 
daily driving. But I always had a gas car as well, for long trips.


In 2000 we bought one of the first Prius. It became our long-distance 
car. At 50+ mpg and SULEV, it fit the bill nicely.


Today, we have a Leaf for around-town driving, and a plug-in Prius for 
trips.


--
If you're not stubborn, you'll give up too soon. If you're not flexible,
you'll pound your head against the wall and miss a different solution.
(Jeff Bezos)
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Re: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 in North America.

2019-05-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Willie via EV wrote:

On 5/18/19 12:38 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:


drag and increased energy consumption (and reduced range). Simply
raising a
vehicle increases frontal area by virtue of the tires being more exposed.


I believe the under car air speed is also increased.  Or, maybe
increased turbulence.  Anyway, I think it is worse than just exposing
more tire.


I think that is true. Keeping the car low is a way to reduce the amount 
of air and turbulence underneath. Of course, a smooth bottom would help; 
but that costs too much.


Big fat tires with lots of tread have lots of wind resistance. And, the 
tops of the tires are moving forward at *double* the speed of the car!


Paul MacReady (of Aerovironment) talked a lot about auto aerodynamics 
when he was designing the Impact (aka GM EV1). Things I recall:


- Aero testing is in wind tunnels, with car and tires not moving.
- The roughness of the bottom of the car is usually ignored.
- Spinning tires have much more drag than stationary ones.
- Most cars are more aerodynamic in reverse.

So, he designed the EV1 with a smooth bottom, with wheel wells optimized 
as "ducts" to minimize turbulence, and a shape that actually *was* 
aerodynamic (instead of what some stylist thinks will "look" aerodynamic).


If you need more ground clearance sometimes, maybe adjustable air bags 
are an answer?

--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
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Re: [EVDL] Availability of public chargers

2019-05-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 5 May 2019 at 20:36, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:


If a bunch of students can manufacturer a vehicle that seats 4 with a trunk
that can do 400 miles a day that is what GM should be building.


Nope.  Sorry.  GM is a mass market manufacturer.  That's a technical marvel,
not a mass appeal vehicle.  GM will never find a business case in a vehicle
like that.  They wouln't find it even if there were one, and I doubt that
there is.

And if they did, their stockholders would have their CEO out on the street
the following week.  That's the way the market works.  It selects for more
of what made money last year and the decade before that.

I don't expect to ever see a vehicle like the Stella Lux mass-produced in
the US, and probably not anywhere in the world.  I suggest that you get
started building your own.


I don't think the situation is hopeless or impossible. But it is 
certainly difficult.


It's the Innovator's Dilemma. How do you sell a disruptive new product 
in a market already controlled by entrenched competitors? Answer? You 
can't. You have to find, or create a new market, and fly under their 
"rader" until you can get big enough to compete. Like Apple vs. IBM, or 
Amazon vs. Sears.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
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Re: [EVDL] Availability of public chargers - NOT

2019-05-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Good counter arguments!  Thanks


You're welcome. And Thank YOU for such a cogent description on the 
number of gas stations and amount of "fueling time that would be needed. 
I'm no researcher, so it's hard for me to dig up this kind of information.


--
"If I could own the gas stations, I'd GIVE the cars away." (Henry Ford, 
after being blocked from buying up gas stations by the Justice Dept.)

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Re: [EVDL] Availability of public chargers - NOT

2019-05-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Anecdotal evidence: I have charged a grand total of 1 time at the public
charging station across the street...  So, for me the balance lies at over
99% private charging. I suspect others have similar experience and this
skews the picture quite a bit away from public charging.


Same for me. :-)


Apartment dwellers either need to rely on workplace charging or get a
(shared) charger installed, but are likely to use more public charging
otherwise. So, with more people buying EVs, including those without garage
or private driveway, the need for public charging likely increases more
than linear.


I agree. Right now, probably 99% of EV owners charge at home. As long as 
that stays true, no one can monopolize charging.


The problem is that we represent less than 1% of the motoring public. 
The other 99% can easily be swayed by arguments like "EV owners are tax 
cheats, cause blackouts, and could burn down your apartment building 
with their dangerous illegal practices. We need these new rules to 
protect you from the damage they cause."


To create a monopoly, they have to get these laws passed *before* any 
significant percentage of EVs owners are out there to complain if they 
interfere with charging at home.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
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Re: [EVDL] Availability of public chargers

2019-05-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

For all those reasons, Lee mentioned, light weight solar vehicles make sense. 
If a bunch of students can manufacturer a vehicle that seats 4 with a trunk 
that can do 400 miles a day that is what GM should be building. Lawrence Rhodes


Ah, but what you and I want is not what the big auto companies want. 
They want vehicles with as high a profit margin as possible, where they 
have total control over parts and service.


They have become giants. And giants need a lot of food to survive. 
"Food" in their case is money. The nature of Wall Street demands that 
they grow; or die. So they will do *anything* to get it to survive!


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
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Re: [EVDL] Availability of public chargers - NOT

2019-05-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas

stations are now.

The 300 million cars are served by about 120,000 gas stations in the USA...
What about when we get to 300M EVs?  Lets assume 80% charge at home
leaving 60M needing public charging... 250,000 high speed chargers needed.


Which is just two per gas station. Certainly possible.


That leaves the 9 million needing 3 hours a day at L2 for 36 million L2
charging hours a day.  Divided by 24 gives about 1,500,000 public L2
chargers.


Roughly 12 times the number of gas stations. But L2 chargers can be put 
almost anywhere; any business can have one. So it is quite conceivable 
to have that many.



So I say as I have always said... "anyone who buys an EV with the idea of
dependence on public charging will be VERY disappointed!


Right now, yes! To my mind, it is GOOD not to depend on public charging. 
Charge at home!


But as an engineer, I see no technological challenges with a system 
where home charging is somehow prevented, so that paid public charging 
is the only option. The oil companies could convert their gas stations 
to "filling stations" with EV fast chargers. The power companies could 
get into the public charging business, and license smaller L2 chargers 
the same way banks set up ATMs in every mall and big-box store. There 
are easily 12 times more places where such EVSE's could be put than just 
at gas stations. Any public place you park your car could have one.


Cities, states, stores, the oil companies, power companies, and whoever 
makes these EVSE's would all see it as a new source of profits. All of 
them would lobby for such a solution.


They get complete control over the price and delivery. They can tax the 
bejesus out of the electricity, just like fuel taxes. They can limit or 
shut down the chargers in case of brownouts, or even "borrow" power from 
your EV battery packs when needed.


THAT's my worry.

--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
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Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE % (goog-pr)

2019-05-03 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Damon Henry via EV wrote:

I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas stations are 
now.  There will always be a significant amount of people who charge primarily 
at home, so the demand will be less... Don't know if that is good or bad, but I 
know very few people have their own gas pumps.


I sure hope so, Damon! But I also know the vested interests in the oil 
and auto industries have a powerful urge to "rig" things so we can't 
charge at home. They have the money and lobbies to get the laws written 
*their* way. You can just imagine the arguments they will make:


- Home charging cheats on taxes. Governments won't get its fuel taxes.
- Charging is dangerous. It must be done at "safe" locations like 
public filling station.
- Home charging will overload the electric grid. It must be regulated to 
prevent brownouts and failures.

- EVs must have patented/licensed/regulated charging facilities that
must be regularly inspected and approved. People can't have their own 
gas pumps; so they can't have their own EVSE's either.


The gas-buying public at large will agree with all of these claims. Many 
will even loudly defend anything that disadvantages "them tree-hugging 
job-killin' liberal socialist EV drivers". In constrast, EV drivers are 
an insignificant minority with essentially no lobbying power.


Sigh...
--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
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Re: [EVDL] Travel Scoot in the news

2019-05-03 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

What about nimh?


Good thought!  The only possible problem with that is that in recent years
I've found it difficult to find good quality high-rate NiMH cells.


Indeed. You know the old saying; the Bad drives out the Good.

I wonder if one could use a set of Prius modules? They are certainly 
high quality, and rated at 7.2v x 6.5ah = 46.8 Wh and about 2.5 lbs 
each. Four of them gives you a 28v 187Wh 10 lbs pack.


Of course, you can only get used ones. The challenge would be to find 
some that are not *too* used (i.e. not removed from a Prius because they 
were worn out).


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
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Re: [EVDL] Travel Scoot in the news

2019-05-02 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Formerly you were allowed to travel with a lithium-ion battery of less than
300Wh.  The standard lithium battery for the current "normal" Travelscoot
model is 274WH.

However, on at least some airlines, now I see a 160Wh restriction...

Older Travelscoots used a lead-gel battery... Unfortunately with a lead battery,
the TS range is significantly lower.  It weighs a lot more, too.  :-(


Lithium and lead-acid aren't the only games in town. What about nimh? 
It's still easy enough to get nimh D, C, or sub-C cells.


A nimh D-cell is rated about 10ah at 1.2v, so 12Wh each. That's about 12 
cells for a 160Wh pack, or 24 for 274Wh. They weigh about 5 ounces, so 4 
lbs for the 160Wh pack, and 8 for the 274Wh pack. (Of course, these are 
using "advertised" capacities, which are probably exaggerated for both 
the nimh cells and TravelScoot packs).


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Wind boost converters

2019-04-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Ron Solberg etc
All small wind turbines like my Bergey XL-1 have boost converters on them to 
change the varying voltage to a constant float voltage for the L16 batteries 
you mentioned.  13.8v is maintained per 12v increment or for your 48v system 
you would use a 55.2v boost regulator for float and 60V to equalize monthly 
(with equalize button).   I used a Micrel (Google data sheet) MiC2171bu on a 
24v wind turbine I had that took 6-24v in and converted up to 30v out with a 
bypass low drop Schottky diode when overspeeding. Look at SMA Windy Boy 
controller or Berger.com.
Have a renewable energy day,


The modern wind generators I've seen used a PM motor. Some are DC (with 
a commutator), but most are AC. These will generate a voltage that 
varies with wind speed, so a controller of some kind is always needed.


The old ones all used brushed DC wound-field generators. They worked 
just like the old car generators; there was an armature and commutator, 
and a wound field coil. The output was regulated by the field current.


As speed increases, the field current was lowered to regulate the output 
voltage (and current). They worked just like the "regulator" in 
pre-1960's cars; a little box with two or three relays that would select 
off/medium/high field current. The relays were carefully adjusted to 
pull in at the desired voltage, and "chattered" on/off as a crude 
switchmode regulator. The inductance of the field winding served as the 
flywheel to even out the variations. This is exactly the setup we use 
today in a series motor controller, but with transistors doing the 
switching.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
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Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

2019-04-19 Thread Lee Hart via EV

evtlfp20 via EV wrote:

Third, if you were able to charge them, check their internal
resistance. It cannot be the "17-22 meg" that you said. Did you
mis-type, and it's really 17-22 milli-ohms (0.017 to 0.022 ohms)? How
did you measure it?


Hi evtlfp20,

A good battery's internal resistance is very small; tiny fractions of an 
ohm. It takes special equipment, or special measurement techniques to 
measure resistances this small.


A "milliohm" is a thousanth of an ohm -- 0.001 ohm. "Milli" is 
abbreviated "m" (lower-case m). A "megohm" is a MILLON ohms -- 1,000,000 
ohms. "Mega" is abbreviated "M" (capital M). So you can see my confusion 
when you said your battery was "17-22 meg ohms".



using my icharger 306b  it says 18m n  omega  sysmbol.


I don't know what an "icharger" is. But it has become fashionable (a 
marketing gimmick) to put pretend internal resistance scales on battery 
testers. Lots of meters sold to auto repair places claim to test 
internal resistance as a quick-n-dirty good/bad battery test.



> A 30 amphour cell good for 10C would have to deliver 300 amps.

10 c this is burst current I hope they can do 2 or 3 c steady ..

can you show us the math how this nmc cell could not do this?


Sure!

"10C" means the battery is able to supply a current of 10 times its 
amphour capacity ("C"). For example, a 30 amphour car starting battery 
that can deliver 300 amps to crank an engine.


But to deliver 300 amps, the battery must have a very low internal 
resistance. For example, suppose a 12v car starting battery sags to 11v 
wit a 300 amp load for 10 seconds. Then its internal resistance is 
(12v-11v)/300a = 0.0033 ohms = 3.3 milliohms. That's good.


Now suppose it sags to 6v under that load: (12v-6v)/300a = 0.02 ohm = 20 
milliohms. That's bad! 6v isn't enough to crank an engine or power all 
the computers a car needs to start.


PS: This tells you how you should measure internal resistance for yourself:

1. Measure the battery voltage: Preferably with a small load, like 1 amp 
to remove the effect of any recent charging. This is the "unloaded" 
voltage and current, Vlo and Ilo.


2. Connect a high current load: Preferably 1C, or whatever current you 
expect to draw.


3. Wait 10 seconds. The voltage should fall quickly to a new level, and 
then stabilize at a slow rate of decline.


4. Measure the voltage again. This is the "loaded" voltage and current, 
Vhi and Ihi".


5. Calculate the internal resistance: R = (Vlo-Vhi) / (Ihi-Ilo).

For example, your battery is 12.5v at 1 amp, and 12.0v at 30 amps. Then 
R = (12.5v-12.0v) / 30a-1a) = 0.017 ohms = 17 milliohms.


EV batteries generally need to supply high currents for long periods. 
You can see that this 17 milliohm battery can't do it.


A good 18650 lithium cell (like you'd find in a laptop) will have an 
internal resistance under 3 milliohms. A plain old 6v golf cart battery 
is under 5 milliohms.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
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Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

2019-04-19 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Keep in mind that many hand held meters cannot accurately report mOhms. You
should look up the specs on your meter to see what it is actually capable
of.


Indeed, most normal meters are inaccurate below about 1 ohm. Their own 
lead wires and internal circuitry adds more resistance than that.


There are special meters for measuring very low resistance values 
(usually called "milli-ohm" or "micro-ohm" meters. They usually make 
4-wire measurements. Four wires connect to the unknown resistance; two 
supply a known current, and the other two measure the (tiny) voltage 
produced by this current. This method cancels out the resistance of the 
wires and connections themselves.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EV Storage

2019-04-16 Thread Lee Hart via EV

David Delman via EV wrote:

Thanks for the ideas Jay. It really isn't practical for me to remove the
batteries and rewire them in parallel.

I was wondering if I could build a simple "trickle charger" for the
entire pack.

I envision an isolation transformer 120vac in and 120vac out. The output
connected to a full wave bridge rectifier with perhaps an incandescent
light bulb in series with the output to limit the current.

This would supply  ~169.68 vac peak or just over 13v per cell. Provided
that the output of the transformer was really 120vac...

The question is, if I start out with balanced batteries will they stay
balanced while being trickle maintained in series...?

Dave

OnTue, 16 Apr 2019, Jay Summet wrote:

If this is a one-time park long term storage type situation, perhaps you
could remove the batteries (or at least, their terminals) and wire all
12 in parallel and then use a small float charger on the whole set at once?


Alternatively, what is the self discharge rate of AGM's vs the projected
length of storage? If it's just for a few months, you could possibly
just charge them up fully and then disconnect them and be ready to
recharge when you return.


Jay


On 4/16/19 2:39 PM, David Delman via EV wrote:

I am going to have to store my eLectric DeLorean at a facility away from
home.


The car has 13 Sears PM-1 lead acid AGM batteries.


Presently I use 13 individual chargers, one for each battery to keep
them charged and balanced. This won't be practical where I am going to
store the car.


What is the groups advice for keeping the batteries charged and balanced?


Hi Dave,

You definitely don't want a "trickle charger". This is the cheapest, 
crappiest kind of charger. All it does it put a continuous current into 
the batteries. This will slowly overcharge them to death!


For lead-acid, you want a "float" charger for long-term maintenance. It 
holds a constants *voltage*, and lets the current fall to almost zero 
when the battery is fully charged.


But a float charger isn't practical for a long string of cells (like 
your 120v pack). The batteries certainly won't be balanced; so some will 
get more voltage (and overcharge), while some will get less (and not 
fully charge).


Also, float charging is what you do if you may need the batteries to be 
ready and fully charged any time. For example, an alarm system or UPS 
power supply where you may need it fully charged at any time.


If this is for short-term storage (a few months), just fully charge 
them, and store the car as-is. AGMs can happily sit for many months 
without charging.


Just make sure that there are *no parasitic loads* that are always-on 
and connected! A clock, alarm system, keyless remote, or even your 
individual battery chargers may draw power from the batteries when the 
car is off! If you aren't sure, then disconnect the batteries before 
storage.


If this is for long-term storage, then I'd recommend removing the 
batteries. Either keep them in your garage and charge them occasionally; 
or just sell them and buy replacements when the time comes.


The usual problem is that the batteries were good when the EV got 
stored, but they never get charged and the storage lasts longer than you 
thought; and the batteries all die.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (EV-charging-101)> Charging without owning a garage

2019-04-01 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lee Hart wrote:

There are lots of solutions. Which one is "best" depends on what
you've got, what you want to spend, and how good it needs to be...


One more thing occurred to me. Here's a way to "trick" a modified 
sinewave inverter into producing a better sine wave.


Connect an induction (or better yet, a synchronous) motor to the 
inverter. Run this motor with no load on its shaft. Since all motors are 
also generators, the motor will try to level off the peaks and fill in 
the missing parts of the sine wave. It acts as a motor during the parts 
of the cycle where the AC voltage is too high; and as a generator during 
the parts of the AC cycle where the voltage is too low. So, any load you 
connect at the same time will thus get a cleaner waveform.


This trick is especially useful to generate 3-phase power with a 
single-phase inverter. You power one phase of a 3-phase motor with the 
inverter, and it "fills in" the other two phases.


It is also a way to get an undersized inverter to start a big motor. 
Normally, as soon as you connect the big motor, its starting current 
makes the inverter shut down. But if you start a smaller motor first, 
its spinning inertia generates the extra power to start the big second 
motor.


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (EV-charging-101)> Charging without owning a garage

2019-04-01 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Ron Solberg or maybe Willie via EV (I can't tell which) wrote:

Well back to your question.  Presumed to be "Can I clean up a square
wave inverter power to something acceptable to my onboard Tesla
charger?"  I'm out of my depth.  Surely Lee has ideas.
In the past, I believe I've seen him recommend a motor-generator...


There are lots of solutions. Which one is "best" depends on what you've 
got, what you want to spend, and how good it needs to be.


A motor-generator is perhaps the oldest way to go about it. The motor is 
chosen based on what input voltage you have (AC or DC). The generator 
("alternator" if it outputs AC) is chosen for the voltage you want. This 
is still a good solution for very high power, very clean sinewaves, or 
3-phase power. A motor-generator is also good at starting heavy loads, 
like big motors.


The price isn't necessarily unreasonable if you buy surplus. I have a 
Westinghouse 240vdc in, 240vac 60Hz 15/30 KW continuous/intermittent 
3-phase out unit that cost me $300. It weighs about 250 lbs.


Next newer approach: There are filters that can "clean up" the output of 
a square wave ("modified sine wave") inverter. One simple one is called 
an Ott filter. Basically, it's some big inductors and capacitors. They 
form resonant circuits to filter out the 3rd and 5th harmonics, and so 
make a square wave look a lot closer to a sine wave. I have one that 
converts 120vac 600w into a reasonable sinewave. It's about the size of 
a shoebox and weighs 15 lbs.


Beyond this, if you really need a sinewave output, you probably have to 
use a commercial sinewave inverter. Since these are expensive, you will 
probably have to size it to power only the loads that are "particular" 
about the power they get.


If you're using PV power (DC input) to charge an EV (DC output), then 
what you really want is a big DC/DC converter. A conventional EV series 
motor controller can be used for this. It's basically a step-down DC/DC 
converter with the output filter missing (the motor substitutes for it). 
To use a motor controller as a general-purpose battery charger, you need 
a big series inductor (the field of a DC series motor, for example), and 
a big bank of filter capacitors (the batteries you are charging can be 
most of this).


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (EV-charging-101)> Charging without owning a garage

2019-04-01 Thread Lee Hart via EV

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

it boils down to how many range-miles you have left, how many
range-miles you need to put back-in to get to the next EVSE, and how much
time you have to charge?

Overnight sleep or @work, plan to charge for at least 7 hours. L1 might
regain you (3.5mph*7= ) ~25 miles of range.


It's not quite that bad. Our Nissan Leaf gets about 4 miles per KWH. L1 
charges at about 1.44 KW. That's about 5.6 miles range per hour, or 40 
miles for 7 hours of charging.


Charging efficiency will reduce this a bit. But then, most full-time 
jobs will have your EV charging for 8 or more hours a day.



*Only buy an EV with a L2-6kW (j1772) charging capability that also has a
L3(quick) charging port.


Maybe if you live in California. Where I live, there aren't any L3 
EVSE's within range of my EVs.



My home EVSE preference:: have a L2-6kW (j1172) or a L2-10kW (Tesla) hpwc (=
no surprises you can always get a good/solid charge).


I do 99% of my charging on L1, in my own garage. That's been fine for me!

--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Mr. Rogers sez> Won't you be my EV neighbor? (v)

2019-03-30 Thread Lee Hart via EV

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2019/03/29/lost-and-found-overflow-that-time-mr-rogers-visited-a-mystery-ev-builder/comment-page-1/
Lost and Found overflow: that time Mr. Rogers visited a mystery EV builder
March 29, 2019  Daniel Strohl

after watching the segment, we’re left scratching our heads over which EV
manufacturer Rogers actually visited.

Here’s the basics: In episode 1478, which originally aired in February 1981,
Rogers visits what he describes as a friend’s garage after showing off a
model of an electric car.

He takes a ride to the garage in a blocky electric pickup with a guy named
Paul, then at the garage itself meets his friend, Wayne.

Wayne explains that the cars are built from steel tubing with fiberglass
bodies.

He also shows off a completed chassis with batteries and drivetrain, and
lets Mister Rogers (you try calling him just Fred) turn the steering wheel.

Mister Rogers then gets a chance to take the pickup for a drive with Paul.

So, of course, as automotive history enthusiasts, we need to know everything
we can about Wayne and the electric vehicles he’s building


That's Wayne Goldman, and his company was Electric Vehicle Engineering 
Inc. Mailing address was PO Box 1, Lexington MA 02173, facilities at 9 
Y.D. Road, Bedford MA 01730, phone (617) 275-0995. They operated from 
about 1975-1982. They built quite a number of prototypes and 
limited-production EVs. I met Wayne and bought an EV kit from him.



The EV’s drivetrain layout is unique enough to serve as a clue as well.
this one uses a big motor and 18 6-volt batteries to power the front wheels
via a small coupler, a center differential (possibly from a Corvette, just
flipped upside down?), and a coil-sprung double-wishbone front suspension.


Most of his vehicles used an 8HP or 20HP GE series motors. The 
differential was made by Dana. Front suspension and brakes were from a 
Saab 96. The batteries were contained in a central roll-out tray for 
easy servicing.



Take note of the bare van-style body and chassis in the background; that
may be the key to the company’s identity. By chance, we came across mention
of Electro Motion Transportation Systems


My impression from Wayne was that Electro-Motion was an earlier version 
of the company. One of their vehicles was the "Islander", with a very 
similar chassis and fiberglass body. They also made one with a Myers 
"Manx" dune buggy body. In 1975, they got a contract from the US Post 
Office to build some prototype postal delivery vans. Electric Vehicle 
Engineering was created as a separate company to fill that contract. 
That's the unfinished blocky body you see in the background in one of 
the photos.



That said, we’ve found zero other mentions of Electro Motion, Electric
Vehicle Industries, or Electric Vehicle Engineering. Nothing on how long
they lasted, how many vehicles they built, or who Wayne and Paul are.


I don't recognize Paul, but the other guy is Wayne Goldman.


Anybody out there recognize this obscure bit of electric vehicle history?
[© hemmings.com]


I have perhaps 20-30 pages of documentation on them, including a tape 
recorded interview with Wayne. Bruce, do you have the contact 
information for Daniel Strohl at Hemmings?


--
Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

2019-03-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV

evtlfp20 via EV wrote:

  I recived a shipment of NMC battery pack with zero volts across 12s ,
and yes they all showed zero.
I read about bumping the cells with nicad setting to get them to 3 volts
so the normal charging could begin and most of them charged to Storage
voltage and have held with in 4/100 of a volt ( 3.70 ) 1 week now .
theses are 30amhr 10C rated.

I was warned that metal based dendrits that have formed becuse of below
zero volts could cause the cells to go blastic .

  most of the cells show an Internal Impendance  of 17 - 22 meg.
Should I put them into a light test use and do a few lights cycles or
solud I just slowly bleed them to zero then send to recycling?

I like to get come use and No Fires


Hi evtlfp20,

I would be very wary of those cells!

First, the seller cheated you. Send them back, and demand replacements 
or a refund!


Second, don't expect them to ever deliver their rated capacity or 
current again. You might be able to recover some capacity from them, but 
they will almost certainly be damaged by being run dead.


Third, if you were able to charge them, check their internal resistance. 
It cannot be the "17-22 meg" that you said. Did you mis-type, and it's 
really 17-22 milli-ohms (0.017 to 0.022 ohms)? How did you measure it?


A 30 amphour cell good for 10C would have to deliver 300 amps. To do 
this, it can't have an internal resistance more than about 5 milliohms 
(0.005 ohms). So even if yours are 17-22 milliohms, they are bad.


The danger with damaged cells is that they become resistors at high 
charge or discharge currents. The resistance produces heat, which starts 
a runaway reaction leading to a fire. The other danger is that they can 
spontaneously short, dumping all of the charge in them, also causing a fire.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

2019-03-22 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Dan Baker via EV wrote:

Thanks guys for the information. Ken and I are reaching out for help so
don't spank us yet for putting in something dangerous lol.


Hi guys,

I'm not trying to "spank" anyone. Just get them to look before they leap!

Did you ever have a (usually teenage) friend say, "Hold my beer and 
watch this..." What followed was one of those disasterous "Darwin award" 
moments that you can only laugh about years later.


I've *been* one of those "teenagers" myself. I've done some amazingly 
stupid things out of ignorance, or just to "see what happens if..." So 
some of the things in this discussion set off alarm bells.



In my case, where I plan to use a BMS but want to reuse a lead charger,
a BMS and voltage cut-off so the charger doesn't just send amps to the
shunts when all cells reach full charge is a bad idea?


It is a bad idea. It only works if

- You KNOW the voltage and current that the charger actually delivers 
when the BMS tries to shunt current around a cell.


- You KNOW the BMS can safely shunt the charger's current at that time.

- You KNOW that something will turn the charger off before it sits too 
long under these conditions.


You will have to test this for yourself. Do not trust the charger or BMS 
manufacturer's marketing claims. They will say anything to "make the 
sale", and will not accept *any* responsibility if things go wrong!



Without a CAN bus, how does the charger know when to turn off?


Exactly! A lead-acid charger may *never* turn off. Many simply stay on 
"forever", on the assumption that a lead-acid battery won't be harmed 
(too much) by being left on a "float" charge forever.



Does it need to turn off?


Yes! This is intolerable for lithiums. You have to be SURE the charger 
turns off, or the cells will get charged to death.



Most of the pre-built packs for sale I have seen only employ 2 wires
(sometimes a third for temp) to the battery which say they have an on-board BMS.


The cheapest (and so most common) scheme is no BMS at all. They depend 
on the cells being matched well enough that you won't need a BMS until 
they age a bit and start to drift apart.


The second-cheapest scheme (which covers alomst everything else) is 
something equivalent to a zener diode across each cell. When it reaches 
some voltage, it shunts the charging current away from the cell.


This only works if the charger is delivering a current that is *lower* 
than the shunt can safely handle. Most shunts are tiny; they can only 
bypass maybe 100 milliamps of current.


If the shunts can't handle the charger's current, they burn up or fail. 
Then you have no protection. The next thing to fail is the cell (perhaps 
spectacularly).


Even if the shunt can handle the charging current, it is converting it 
to heat. This heat is dumped into the battery box. Having large numbers 
of shunts all producing heat for long periods is a bad thing, as heat 
kills lithium cells. That's why you must *know* that the charger will 
shut down in some relatively short time period.



I know in lead charging, the amperage draw slowly drops to near 0 as
the pack reaches full charge.


Yes, if all the cells are good. If a cell is bad, or the pack is hot, or 
old, the current does not drop off at full charge. Lead-acids can "take 
it" for a while (this is how you equalize them).



With Lithium and a BMS, when the cells reach full charge
(determined by the BMS) and the BMS shunts the load, is that load
significant?  I have looked at a few BMS boards so far, none seem to have a
relay or signal that controls the charger power so I'm assuming a fully
shunted BMS isnt that much of a load.


If the BMS is any good, it will have an output that either tells a 
"smart" charger to shut off, or can control a relay to force a "dumb" 
charger to shut off.


Assuming your BMS has such an output, you also want to be sure it is 
"fail safe". That is, if the BMS fails, it STOPS the charger. Too many 
cheap ones can fail "on".


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

2019-03-22 Thread Lee Hart via EV

ken via EV wrote:

My charger is set to be the right voltage but the old cells being 22 in
series string they need to equalized out at the top/end of the charge.
this requires some battery baby sitting,

if your cells are staying very well balanced then your voltage cut off
method/gadjet may be good.

your ebay gadget coud also be be good for those wanting to do a lower
state of  charge, like turn the voltage down   5 volts for a 10% lower top
charge.

I have 2 ev scooters with  22 and 24 lfp cells.


This is a harder problem than you might think. Mistakes can lead to 
expensive failures, and even fires! I have several concerns in this 
discussion:


- Lack of knowledge about the cells being charged:
- Don't know their actual state of balance.
- Don't know the right voltage to charge them to.

- Lack of information on exactly what the charger is doing:
- What voltage and current does it actually charge to?
- What exactly makes it decide the battery is full?
- And, does it really shut off, or keep on "float" charging?

- Human nature: People who are inexperienced tend to:
- Guess.
- Ignore the problem.
- Seek bad advice (that tells them what they want to hear).
- Then go with the cheapest solution.

So, my advice is to learn all you can! Get data sheets for the batteries 
and charger in question. If you can't, make measurements for yourself 
(don't rely on assumptions, or bogus experts on the internet. or 
marketing claims from unknown suppliers).


If you go without a BMS, understand that any minor failure is likely to 
escalate into a *major* failure before you notice it! It's like deciding 
you don't need any expensive fuses or circuit breakers in your house 
wiring; just wire everything directly to the incoming power. Cheap! 
Easy! And it works fine, until the first time anything anywhere happens 
to fail shorted. Then it burns your house down.


Now, on the subject of a voltage-sensing controller: This is a simple 
method of shutting off a "dumb" charger for a lead-acid pack. That's 
because voltage is a reasonable indication of state of charge for 
lead-acid. Also, overcharging an old or damaged string of lead-acid 
batteries may cause early cell failures; but they are not likely to be 
spectacular disasters.


For charging lithiums, you really need to know the voltage *and* current 
*and* time to turn off the charger. Voltage alone is not enough.


The normal approach is to have a charger that is smart enough to shut 
off when the voltage and current and time are all "right". It won't 
charge to an excessive voltage; and it will turn itself off if the 
current stays too high for too long (an indication that something is 
wrong). A good charger will also have some form of temperature sensing, 
as the correct conditions are temperature-dependent.


But if the charger is only sensing total voltage, it won't know if just 
one cell fails in the pack. That one cell could go seriously 
over-voltage, or fail shorted. In either case, this can lead to a fire. 
That's why you normally have a BMS. It senses each cell, and can stop 
the charger if something goes wrong.


If you are a cheapskate, and don't believe in BMS, then at the very 
least I would suggest something like my Batt-Bridge 
. It will at least warn 
you that something is wrong *before* the disaster. You can also use the 
light from the Batt-Bridge LEDs to control a relay to shut down the 
charger (if charging) or motor controller (if driving).


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Rivian e-truck box system patents r:230-400mi

2019-03-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

>>> “Rivian, a Michigan-based startup that could become the first
>>> automaker to bring an all-electric pickup truck to market”

Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

Ahem, my all electric pickup truck manufactured by US Electricar in 1994
is certainly not the first


paul dove via EV wrote:

Ford made a RANGER in the late 90’s


GM made S10 pickup EVs in the 1990's as well.

Earlier, Jet Industries built EV pickups starting in 1979.
Volkswagon and Toyota built them in the mid-1970's.
Battronic built EV pickups in the early 1970's.

With even a little research, I'll bet there are more. It wouldn't 
surprise me a bit to find companies taht were making EV conversions of 
Ford model T pickups in the 1920's.



History is a strange beast – you may ignore it and claim to be first,
but it will come back to haunt you if that claim does not jive with history.


No; the modern view is that if you tell likes loud enough and long 
enough, they "become" the truth. Reporters and readers won't bother to 
fact-check.

--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium

2019-03-14 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

I am not sure about previous discussions and you may know this: Peukert's
Law is not applicable to Li ion cells in any way. It only relates to lead
acid cells.


I agree with the rest of what you said, but not with this. Peukert's law 
says nothing about the chemistry involved; it applies to *all* types of 
batteries and all chemistries.


Peukert's equation applies to any battery or cell that has internal 
resistance, and that has a minimum "cutoff" voltage below which it is 
harmed. It simply states that the higher the load current, the lower the 
apparent amphour capacity. High currents cause a larger voltage drop, so 
you reach the "cutoff" voltage before the cell is truly dead.


The amphours are not "missing"; you just can't get them without reducing 
the load current, or pulling its voltage below the safe minimum. If 
you're willing to shorten the life of the cell, you can still get it.


Peukert matters more for lead-acids because they typically have a higher 
internal resistance. In particular, lead-acid internal resistance goes 
up a lot as the cell approaches dead. Most other chemistries do not have 
this large change in internal resistance as a function of state of charge.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Bright Way vs. Universal Power Group

2019-02-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Ken Olum via EV wrote:

Hi, all.  I'm trying to replace the UB121350 AGM batteries that I have
in my Electric Ox.  I ordered new ones from Wholesale Batteries Direct,
but they are out and Universal Power Group is out at the warehouse also.
They recommended that I get the Bright Way Group BW EV12-155A instead,
for a few dollars more.  Anyone have any experience with Bright Way?  I
have had good experience with Universal Power, and know nothing about
Bright Way.  The specs on their battery claim 1000 cycles to 50% DOD,
which is pretty impressive for AGM, though that is not so important in a
lawn tractor that you don't use every day.  They claim 10 year calendar
life, also quite impressive and more relevant to me.


I have no experience or knowledge about Bright Way batteries. But 
suspicious old me says that 1000 cycles from an AGM is an extreme claim. 
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Where's their proof?


You may want to check to see if Bright Way is just some outfit that buys 
nameless batteries in China and slaps their own labels on them. In that 
case, they could be anything. They know darned well that you can't 
verify their claims until after they have disappeared with your money.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

2019-02-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Right now, a negligible number of people drive EVs.
The public at large still considers them golf carts, or rich yuppie

toys.

But each of us can make a huge difference.

Back in 2011, I bought some professional EV charging Outlet signs and hung
them on the two light poles in the church parking lot that had 120v
outlets.  They were never if ever used over the next 6 years, but slowly
but surely people in the church started buying EV's because they could see
my car occasionally plulgged in and began to see the ubiquity of EV
charging wherever there is an outlet.


That's a great inspiration, Bob. Thanks for sharing! I'll have to ask at 
our church. :-)


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

paul dove via EV wrote:

The way I heard the story was that he made big promises but failed to deliver. 
He had trouble managing money apparently not unlike Nikola Tesla. Here’s an 
article in Forbes that has part of the story.


Like many innovators, Ovshinsky focused more on the ideas and inventions 
than on the details of implementation. He proved it was possible; and 
left it to others to work out the details of production and how to make 
money. His company (ECD) was all about R, and then licensing the 
inventions to others.


Thus, he licensed the nimh patents to many companies to perfect and 
produce them. As usual in such matters, the companies insisted on 
contracts that prevented their competitors from licensing the same 
patents. Thus Panasonic wanted to block Duracell and Energizer, and GM 
wanted to block Ford and Toyota.


Ovonic was set up as a joint venture between GM and ECD. ECD provided 
the patents and R GM provided the money. But GM had 51% controlling 
interest. Ovshinsky just didn't have the money, or financial acument to 
match the likes of GM. So GM basically had a monopoly on large nimh cells.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Darryl McMahon via EV wrote:

Pardon my cynicism, but what if the oil industry's interest in EV
charging stations is not simply a relatively benign profit motive?


I'd say the best-case scenario is that the oil industry simply wants to 
make money off EV charging. In that case, they would simply attempt to 
monopolize it, and jack up prices.


The worst-case scenarios are a lot darker. They could buy the charging 
infrastructure just to shut it down.


Remember how the auto companies bought out their EV competitors in the 
early days, and shut them down? Or how the trolley cars were bought up 
and dismantled to promote city bus sales? Or how fast the Magnecharger 
network disappeared when GM crushed their EV-1s? Or how fast Nimh EV 
batteries became "unobtainium" as soon as Texaco and then Chevron got 
hold of the patents?


My worst fear is that someone will buy out Tesla, and then proceed to 
systematically destroy it.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

That is where voters come into the picture. Utilities and oil companies
can't do anything that the voting majority does not allow, iether directly
through their representative lawmakers or indirectly through the regulating
PUC. So, go out and vote AND educate other voters what to vote for!


Hear, hear! Absolutely right!

If we do not work for a future we want, the auto/oil companies will work 
for a future that THEY want. And their future plans for us are not 
likely to be good.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

That's a scary thought. I don't see it happening though. And I think the
reason lies in the balance between home charging and public EVSE
charging. As long as there are enough people home charging, they won't
be complacent to demands by power company lawyers.

But I think there will also be a significant number - maybe 50% - of
people who will use public EVSEs. These would include people taking road
trips or extra long day excursions. But also includes people who cannot
charge at home. More and more people are moving from farm to suburbs and
from suburbs to cities. Many live in places without dedicated parking or
any private parking at all. If they own a car, they will use public
charging. Also, as ride sharing (through companies like uber or car2go)
increases, so will the need for fast charging at public EVSEs. I
maintain that there will be significant demand.


I *hope* it won't happen. But I also fear that it can.

Right now, a negligible number of people drive EVs. The public at large 
still considers them golf carts, or rich yuppie toys. The media is 
already plagued with fear-mongering stories about EV fires and crashes. 
There are plenty of astro-turf groups claiming that EV mandates are 
"raising our taxes and costing us money". So it is easy to 'sell' these 
people on plans to make these EV freaks pay more, and restrict their use.


We've already seen laws that add extra fees to license EVs. The NEC 
(National Electric Code in the US) already has a section added to place 
serious restrictions on home EV charging equipment (it's why auto 
company EVs all have that J1772 plug instead of some standard AC 
receptacle). We already have public EVSE companies that charge huge fees 
per KWH. We've already had utilities add special fees and requirements 
for EV charging.


Sooner or later, EV owners will *have* to get organized. We have to 
start lobbying for fair laws and regulations. Otherwise, the other side 
is going to slowly box us into a corner and legislate us out of the picture.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

If I know I can always charge at home, I will not twiddle my thumbs at a 20
minute FILLUP convenience store, but will only putin 5 minutes of charge to
get home and fill up there.


Ah, but you underestimate the power of lawyers, laws, and money.

What if they pass laws that make it illegal to charge your EV at home, 
because it's "dangerous"? After all, some states do not allow you to 
pump your own gas, supposedly for "safety" reasons.


What if the power companies rig things so they "own" the electricity in 
your EV's battery, so they can take it back for P2G to handle peak 
demands on the grid? Since they "own" it, they can control when and 
where it can be put in or taken back out.


What if EVs are only provided with special patented licensed charging 
connectors, which cannot be sold for installation in private dwellings?


The oil companies are only getting involved in EV charging to make 
money. Restricting access to increase prices is bound to be a part of 
their plan.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

2019-02-16 Thread Lee Hart via EV

paul dove via EV wrote:

The main point is that a lithium battery fire is a chemical fire
supplying its own oxygen so it can’t be smothered. One must remove
the heat and bring the temperature of the the battery below the
thermal run away point. I watched videos of firemen trying to douse a
lithium battery fire and it keeps flaring up because the turn off the
hose when the fire goes out before they have sufficiently cooled the
battery


Not only that, but a battery can provide its own source of ignition. 
Even after being extinguished and totally cooled off, there can still be 
enough voltage and current so a short somewhere can produce enough heat 
to re-ignite it.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EVs good for Nevada Economy (v)

2019-02-04 Thread Lee Hart via EV

paul dove via EV wrote:

Where do you get these batteries 80% off. I paid $1.20 an Ah in 2009. I need 
some $0.24 per Ah batteries.


Well, plain old alkaline AA cells are often on sale for $0.25 each, and 
they are over 1 amphour. :-) Non-rechargeable, of course.


Or, the Chinese advertise AA "1800mah" nimh cells on ebay for $0.50 
each. But I have measured them at more like 200-300 mah.


Lee Hart, still waiting for the superbattery sigh...

--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Patty's Motor Car (1911 EV)

2019-01-29 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I read it on the train.  Here is my one page book report on Patty’s Motor
Car (1911): http://aprs.org/Energy/EV/Patty-b.docx


Thanks, Bob.

I have an EV book of that vintage as well. "Tom Swift and his Electric 
Runabout" by Victor Appleton, copyright 1910. If you've read any of the 
classic Tom Swift stories, you'll know what this one is like. :-)


In it, Tom improves his electric car by adding more batteries, and 
wiring them so he could switch between them.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 18650 cell level fuse wire

2019-01-21 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 21 Jan 2019 at 1:18, ken via EV wrote:


What is a 10ths wire?


ten thousands


Wire of any kind or size is not an adequate substitute for a fuse.


Most fuses *are* a piece of wire of adequate size. :-) The trick is in 
the choice of wire, and in how it is packaged.


The choice of wire is important. Normal wire sizes aren't that precise; 
the variation in cross-sectional area is around %5. Then, due to high 
high metal prices, vendors tend to "cheat" (since they know consumers 
won't measure it). It's not uncommon to find cheap wire that is 2 or 3 
sizes smaller than the package claims.


The purity of the metal is also important. Copper is not a good choice. 
Tiny amounts of impurities in copper cause a huge change in its 
resistance. Copper also work-hardens; its resistance increases as a 
result of flexing. When held near its melting point for long periods 
(like a fuse that doesn't quite blow), it crystalizes and develops 
stress cracks that significantly alter its resistance. Silver is a 
better choice for fuse wire.


The packaging is important. Just like food, if you don't package it 
correctly, it will go bad before you can use it. A wire in open air is 
subject to being cooled by moving air, heated by surrounding parts, 
corroded so its diameter shrinks, and even mechanically stressed if its 
ends can move (like a wire between cells that move as they expand and 
contract). The ends of the wire matter as well; they can act as a "heat 
sink" to pull heat away from the center, so it takes more current to 
melt it. So proper fuses are packaged to create a controlled environment 
around it.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Petulant trucker-hat-wearing duo of dolts foolishly finger-gesture !rump: chanting trucks ...

2019-01-20 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Tom Hudson via EV wrote:

Agreed about the signage... but I think these Neanderthals would do it anyway. 
We need to get photos of the offenders every time it happens and document it. 
Using this kind of evidence, I'm hoping to get a state statute against this 
crap here in Wisconsin so that when we see it, we can call the police to 
enforce it.
Until now, this deliberate blockage could only be referred to whatever entity 
owns the facility where the chargers are located, i.e. Tesla Supercharger sites 
in mall parking lots, which can be problematic in terms of enforcement. If it's 
after hours, getting in contact with whoever can do something isn't always 
possible. Not so with state statutes and actual police.


I would think that once law enforcement is "on board", they will 
aggressively ticket offenders as a money-making venture.


They need a camerea on the EVSE. When someone parks there illegally, it 
"calls in". Same as in areas that have parking meters that "call in" 
when a meter expires, so they can get there quick to ticket the car.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Further evidence

2019-01-20 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I don’t know if they will or won’t bring in additional services, I only know 
about the discussions on charging.

However, I suspect that bringing these other things would require a change in 
statute, and would further be very controversial.


I don't know about CA, but I know that IL and IN both have service 
plazas on their "freeways" (which are in fact toll roads). These plazas 
already have an assortment of the usual McWendyKing fast food places, 
gas stations, convenience stores, and many other services.


The rest areas along the Interstate highways in many other states have 
such services as well, though not as elaborate as the ones in states 
where you have to pay to get on and off the highway.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVangel-about: segs4vets.ngo converts-Segways 4disabled veterans

2019-01-19 Thread Lee Hart via EV

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

{I'm trying to postpone having to use a e-mobility cart as long as I can,
but I know it is in my future as each step is large amount of arthritic
pain. But as I push through the pain (not unlike a young man feeling an
exercise-burn of trying to build his muscles/to get the girl, etc.), each
time I see a vet that has to use an e-mobility aid from a lost limb, I
persevere harder to use the body I was given as long as I can.}


Bruce, my hopes and prayers are with you. You've been a guiding light on 
this list for years. May you have many more ahead.


My sister-in-law has the same problems with arthritis, and can barel 
walk. I've been working on a mobility cart for her special needs. I'm 
not going to try for something self-balancing, as if something goes 
wrong, it could be a disaster. But of course the Segway company has 
spent a lot of money and engineering to get it to work.


I'm aiming somewhat lower-tech. She wants to be able to get around 
outside, over grass and snow, on trails, and over curbs and other minor 
obstacles. And, it is to be light enough for her to get it in and out of 
the car herself.


My first try is a 4-wheel cart, about 30 lbs. But it needs bigger 
wheels, so I'm working on a 2nd try.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

2019-01-19 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Though I might add that form has not followed function in
automobiles for a very long time. They are all about styling and
cost. The internals reflect good science and engineering, but the
bodies are almost 100% styling.


Willie via EV wrote:

I can't completely agree with you.  Current sedans seem to be pretty
low drag.  Especially Tesla.  Of course, people complain about them
all looking the same.


They *seem* to be low drag. But it is still mostly styling. Paul
MacCready (of Aerovironment, who designed the Impact EV for GM, which
became the EV-1) noted that most cars are more streamlined in reverse.
He fought endlessly with GM stylists about the difference between what
"looks" aerodynamic, and what actually *is* aerodynamic.

All cars have big air intakes in front (which adds drag). They all have
rough bottoms (a major source of drag). They all have fancy rough
decorative wheels that catch lots of air. The inside of the wheel wells
are very rough, which is doubly bad for drag because the top of the tire
is moving forward at *double* the vehicle's air speed. And of course big
fat tires are all the rage (short skinny tires have much lower drag).

When people build truly aerodynamic vehicles, the general public views 
them as "ugly". But they use far less fuel than conventional vehicles. 
(The Stella vehicles for example).



I had a bunch of 1980s Isuzu diesel pickups... After about 1995,
nothing comparable to the 80s Isuzus was available.  The
Ranger/Mazdas got jacked up so their beds were as inaccessible as
larger pickups.  Bah!  HumBug!  Even the new EV pickups on the
horizon mimic the horrible configurations of current pickups.  What
are the designers thinking?  What are the buyers thinking?


I'm with you there! I had a 1974 Datsun pickup (which I converted into 
an EV). They were great little trucks! Modern pickups are all about 
style, and nothing to do with being good trucks.


All show, no go.

--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

2019-01-10 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 9 Jan 2019 at 16:19, Willie via EV wrote:


 From what little I know of CCars, I would say that the most horrible,
overwhelming weakness is the body material that falls apart after a
few sun years.


They painted it with catalyzed acrylic enamel.  That was supposed to provide
some UV protection, according to the last man standing in Sebring in the
late 1980s, Jim Tervort.  Obviously it wasn't enough for sunny climates and
for cars stored outdoors.  But garage-stored C-cars, and those in less sunny
regions, seem to have held up better.

Since I live in one of the cloudiest parts of the US, in my limited view,
the C-cars' greatest weaknesses were the suspension and brakes.

True, they rode roughly, but that wasn't the problem.  They were skittish in
corners.   At least mine was.

The brakes weren't suited to a vehicle that went much more than, say,
jogging speed.  When I braked hard, my 1980 Comuta-Car had a unsettling
tendency to come to a stop with its tail facing the oncoming traffic.

Basically, they were enclosed golf cars, and that's pretty much how they
handled and braked.

And then there were the motor fuses -- er, that is, brush pigtails.  They
couldn't have been much more than AWG 8 or 10.  Despite the "current
limiting" (#2 battery cable for the traction wiring), they'd burn open on
steep hills -- especially if you actually did as the owner's manual
suggested, and stomped the accelerator to the floor.

I had a blast with that car anyway.  Memories.  :-)


Ah yes; those were the days. I liked mine as well. It had shortcomings, 
but they could all be fixed; even my me. :-)


Early ones had aircraft brakes; they weren't much good. Later ones used 
trailer brakes, which were at least highway rated. Stopping tail-first 
was a side effect of not balancing the front/rear brakes. Almost all 
other cars use different front/rear brakes or wheel cylinder sizes, or 
pressure regulators in the brake lines; some means to balancing the 
front/rear braking.


Bob Rice designed it to use two golf cart motors. He was over-ruled, so 
they used one. My ComutaVan used one much bigger motor, and never had 
that problem.


Skittish in corners: Yes; that was a consequence of using off-the-shelf 
trailer springs and shocks that weren't properly sized for the vehicle's 
weight. Solid-axle vehicles will never handle great; but they can handle 
quite well when properly set up.


Bob used marine plywood to skin his prototypes. That might have been 
superior to the plastic and might look more attractive; but of course 
wood is not fashionable. :-) Aluminum or fiberglass would have been a 
good alternative; but they chose ABS plastic because it was cheap and 
had the lowest tooling cost.

--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

2019-01-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Willie via EV wrote:

Yes, it was ugly, and crude, and not very reliable. Nevertheless, they
were able to find a market niche where people didn't care what it
looked like. They sold thousands of CitiCars.


Who are you calling "ugly"? :-)  I accept crude and not reliable.


I'm with you, Willie! :-) I drove a ComutaVan for 7+ years as my daily 
driver. I didn't care about ugly.


Yes, it was crude: like a 1940's army Jeep. But I was driving on good 
roads, so the ride quality didn't matter. The ComutaVan was a bit 
bigger, and could do 55 mph and climb hills just fine. I added a little 
electric heater, and no A/C is needed in the North. I was happy.



From what little I know of CCars, I would say that the most horrible,
overwhelming weakness is the body material that falls apart after a few
sun years.


It was standard ABS plastic. They apparently did not use a UV-stabilized 
grade. My ComutaVan was painted; its body was still pretty good even 
when 20 years old. The only problems I had were that ice would build up 
in the wheel wells, and sometimes break off bits of the 1" lip inside. 
And, once I forgot to latch the hood down, and it blew off! I made 
another one from a new sheet of ABS. I made a wooden form, and bent it 
using a hot air gun. (Try to imagine making new body panels that easily 
on any modern car.)



Were it not for that, my guess is that most CCars would
still be on the road.  Had they managed a few tens of thousands, likely
there would be someone making fiberglass bodies for them now.


I've always thought it would be good if someone made an EV "skateboard" 
like the old VW beetle floor pan. Then the customer could add any of a 
number of fiberglass VW kit-car bodies, to suit his taste.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

2019-01-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Gail Lucas via EV wrote:

Just learned a new word: hidebound. There are SO many different car
styles there must be wide preferences in appearance. Same as with
clothing, houses, even food shown on the internet in pictures of what
someone had for lunch and think anyone cares. Twizy and Citicar styles
are different enough to appeal to people who can't tell one usual car
body style from the other. They also need less space for parking and use
less electricity than a Tesla so are an inexpensive means to tool around
town.

Willie, Citicars did meet some of the criteria you mentioned, when they
were new. Those I had were already old when I bought them but still
worked well when I found people who could help me maintain them. They
held way more stuff than you could imagine if just looking at one, like
two folding chairs, bulletin board, stack of flyers, large costumes,
baskets of flowers, ice skates, etc. used for Earth Day events. I once
drove two grown men to the Strip in one when their expected
transportation was not available, often took my neighbor with suitcases
to the airport. They functioned very nicely for their intended purpose
and were my only cars at times. I also used a pedal-powered bicycle for
a few years, then upgraded to E-bikes and all were adequate to get me to
work or to shopping, never felt a need to go from 0 to 60 quickly and
didn't miss cup holders. An E-bike could be called a BEV. And don't
forget all the NEVs, some very cute and also practical for many
purposes. It annoys me when I hear people say they can't use an EV
because it won't go 300 miles on a charge. Many could probably manage
with a Citicar except it would not qualify as a status symbol.


Bob Rice was the engineer that designed the CitiCar. Bob Beaumont was 
the businessman, with knowledge of the automotive business and financial 
acumen. The two made a good team; like Jobs and Wozniak, they could 
build and sell anything.


Their vision for the CitiCar was to be simple, cheap, and easy to build 
and repair. Something like a modern version of the Ford model T or VW 
Beetle. Styling was a low priority for them.


Yes, it was ugly, and crude, and not very reliable. Nevertheless, they 
were able to find a market niche where people didn't care what it looked 
like. They sold thousands of CitiCars.


Bob Rice always regretted that there was never enough time or money to 
do it right. So many things were just the quickest, most expedient way 
to get things done. For example, in the auto companies, a team of 
engineers take a year to design a door. Bob had to it all by himself in 
one week. It was immediately put into production, with no testing.


I still share Bob's vision that such a car could sell. There is a crying 
need for truly simple, cheap, reliable transportation. But the 
challenges are great. It takes an enormous amount of time money to do it 
right; no one wants to do it.


Instead, investors always go for the low-hanging fruit. "Let's build 
(yet another) luxury sports car."


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

2019-01-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:

For me a battery electric vehicle does not need to look like a goofy toy.


Willie via EV wrote:

Of course, a BEV does not NEED to look any certain way.  Beauty is in
the eye of the beholder.  Form follows function.  Certainly the
hidebound will demand certain appearances.  We would like to see an an
open minded buying public. I would be a Twizy sales prospect if one were
offered to me.  I would like to have a good condition, reliable,
capable, safe, cheese wedge CCar.  Recognizing, of course, that CCars
never met those criteria.  Never the less, both CCars and Twizys have
earned their places in the history of EV development.  I honor them.


Well said, Willie.

Though I might add that form has not followed function in automobiles 
for a very long time. They are all about styling and cost. The internals 
reflect good science and engineering, but the bodies are almost 100% 
styling.


Wy? Because most people buy cars almost entirely based on price and 
appearance. And their idea of what "looks good" constantly changes.


Introducing a new car is a tough problem. All the currently-fashionable 
shapes have already been taken. So you will have to pick a new shape, 
which perhaps only a tiny percentage of the market will think is 
"beautiful". Hopefully, it will be a large enough slice if the market to 
survive. This is why we see such oddball appearances in new, limited 
market vehicles.

--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
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Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

2019-01-08 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

IMO, Rick's idea with the Tango was brilliant... The problem was the car's
price.

Also, people with money don't want tiny, weird cars. They want big, luxurious
cars. Elon Musk understood all this intuitively...

I'm glad he's still pursuing his dream.  I hope he catches it someday.


I agree. The Tango is a great idea! It's like the marriage of a 
motorcycle and a car. Compared to a motorcycle, it's safer, you're 
protected from the elements, and have a heater, A/C, radio, etc. 
Compared to a car, it's 1/4th the size, so it doubles space on the 
highways, and quadruples parking and garage space. Fits sideways on 
train cars, so you could even take your car with you, if the railroads 
could get "on-board".


Being smaller, it could be a lot lighter and cheaper (like the microcars 
they have in other parts of the world). With half the frontal area, it 
can also use half the energy.


But, it's too different. People want cars that look like everyone else's 
cars. He wasn't able to find a market for them. Without a market, there 
is no mass production or economy of scale; so they are hand-built and 
the price is high.


His investors also did not want to build commuter cars; they wanted to 
make luxury sports cars for the very rich.


I wonder if the USA is the wrong market for the Tango. Many other 
countries do not have our preconceived notions of what a car "must" look 
like. There are places where roads are packed, most cars are tiny, and 
many strange little vehicles are on the roads. Or, maybe there are 
resort communities where golf carts are the norm for transportation. The 
Tango is like a luxury golf cart with all the amenities of a car.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
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Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

2019-01-08 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Paul Compton via EV wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 23:41, Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:


I would like to see the
car succeed as I think safety, in addition to other features, was excellent.


I disagree, Rick's attitude was 'crumple zones are marketing hype'.

Yes, you need a strong cage to limit crush injuries, but the human
body can only stand so much decelleration.


If your goal is to make a small car, then the crumple zones are 
necessarily small as well. So he made a strong cage as the best that 
could be done given the laws of physics.


Remember that the Tango is about the size of a large motorcycle. It is 
more maneuverable, and stops faster than most cars. That helps to avoid 
accidents.


Rick was also aiming to make it an affordable commuter car; not a luxury 
sports car. Unfortunately, his investors had other ideas...


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
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[EVDL] On the "hopeless" challenges of converting a car into an EV

2019-01-07 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Sigh... rarely have I seen more EV mis-information in one place.

https://hackaday.com/2019/01/04/why-converting-classic-cars-to-electric-drive-is-a-thing/

They describe EV conversions as incredibly complicated and expensive; 
"toys" for the ultra-rich. They seem to think it can only be done by 
very high-tech firms with incredible resources.


In particular, the comments remind me of just how hopelessly clueless 
the general public is about EVs.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
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Re: [EVDL] fusewires for 18650 cells

2019-01-02 Thread Lee Hart via EV

ken via EV wrote:

  Thou my cells are rather close in capity, I'm still thinkng of using fuse
wire as in the telsa pack .  If i used the phone cable 2 pair cable that
runs around houses and used 3/4 inch form cell to bus bar  would my 10
amp cells be protected ?


As mentioned, phone wire is not of consistent size or quality. As a 
result, its performace as a "fuse" is likely to be inconsistent. Maybe 
that's good enough; maybe not. You'll have to test it carefully to be sure.


A few background details on fuses might help. A fuse "blows" when the 
metal reaches its melting temperature. That is a function of current, 
time, and ambient temperature.


Onderdonk's equation provides a ROUGH approximation of the fusing 
current of a round uninsulated wire in still air. For copper, it is I = 
0.148 A/T^0.5, where I = current in amps, A = cross sectional area in 
mils, and T = seconds.


Any insulation on the wire drastically lowers the fusing current.

Any airflow around the wire drastically increases the fusing current.

Most metals have a high enough melting point that they can set fire to 
surronding materials. When the fuse opens, there may also be an arc. 
This is especially dangerous on high voltage DC, because the arc will 
not self-extinguish until it is very long! That's why commercial fuses 
are always in some fireproof package.


Whatever you do, test, Test, TEST!
--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-24 Thread Lee Hart via EV
From: Mark Abramowitz via EV 
>See the subject of the thread for the bottom line answer, though things are 
>never as simple as a one-liner.

That's for sure! It's not a simple problem; so there are no simple answers. If 
anyone who has a simple answer, it's probably wrong. :-)

>For someone who wanted to jump into the deep data, something I learned 
>recently is that for those charging from the grid at night, the energy they 
>are using is virtually all non-renewable (fossil). And I’m told that most of 
>it is from fracked natural gas.(this is all California perspective - other 
>areas use more coal on the grid)

I can believe it. Power at night is going to come from the base load plants, 
which are likely to be coal, hydro, or nuclear (or gas in CA). So where your EV 
charging power comes from will depend on where you live.

California isn't the center of the world; but it probably has the highest 
concentration of EVs (at least in the US). It's ironic that much of the state's 
EV charging power is coming from fossil fuels.

>For those of you that are thinking that faced with this information, battery 
>EV are not worth pushing any more (haha), I’ll say that you are still wrong. 
>BOTH are still important, and needed.

That's for sure! Electrons aren't traceable, and generation has to exactly 
match consumption at every second.

But you can have PV panels generate power during the day. You don't need it; so 
it gets used by someone else on the grid. It reduces the amount of fossil fuel 
that gets used by day. Then at night, you may be charging on on "fossil" power; 
but it's just getting back the power you "loaned" the grid by day.

To me, the fundamental problem is out infatuation with "monoculture" solutions. 
Government and big business want one-size-fits-all solutions. But everyone is 
different. We our situations are *different*, so we need to be able to choose 
from different solutions that meet our individual needs. There is going to be a 
place for hydrogen, batteries, wind, solar, and even fossil fuels for a long 
time to come. It's just the balance between them that needs to change.

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
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Re: [EVDL] Efficiency Compared: Battery-Electric 73%, Hydrogen 22%, ICE 13%

2018-12-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV
From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>Subject: [EVDL] Efficiency Compared: Battery-Electric 73%, Hydrogen 22%, ICE 
>13%
> With the numbers in the subject line. Why would anyone pick fool cells. 

Readers on this list are part of a very small minority that actually think 
about efficiency. The sad fact is that most people couldn't care less about 
efficiency. They only care about cost.

Even if they do care (a little) about efficiency, because they think it it will 
improve their fuel efficiency (by reducing cost), they will say "See? H2 is 
almost TWICE the efficiency of ICEs."


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us forEVs

2018-12-15 Thread Lee Hart via EV

paul dove via EV wrote:

I think that is true initially. But if you can get them to take the
first bite they adapt very quickly. We bought a Model three for my
wife to drive. She had range anxiety so we got the big battery with
advertised 310 miles of range. When we first got it she would charge
it every night. Last night she said to me I haven't charged the
car for two weeks and I still have 80 miles range... Just saying that
once you learn your routine and the limitations of the vehicle it
becomes second nature and you quit worrying about it. It's getting
someone to take the leap into the unknown that is difficult. She is
wondering if she should have gotten the smaller battery and saved
some money.


I've seen the same situation with my wife and our Leaf. At first, she 
worried about the range. Now it no longer matters. (And this is with an 
EV that only has 100 miles range at best.)


People are always the most afraid of the unknown. "What if something 
goes wrong? ..." But once the fears prove unfounded, and the unknown 
becomes the known, the fear vanishes. EVs become "normal", and become 
the preferred solution because they are "better" than ICEs for most 
people's driving.


Imagine this scenario: Suppose the first cellphones were powered by 
hydrogen fuel cells. A "tank" of fuel lasts for a week, but you have to 
go to a special store to "refuel" it for $10 or so. If there was no 
alternative, people would adapt to it. They would learn to accept the 
high cost of operation, and risk of explosions and fires if the H2 fuel 
tank leaks or fails.


Then someone comes out with a battery-powered phone. It has to be 
charged every night; but it can be done at home for less than a penny. 
People would initially complain. "What if I run out of charge in the 
middle of a movie? What if I miss an important call? What if it goes 
dead in an emergency when I need to call for help? People would 
initially be afraid to change, for fear of the unknown.


Yet, we all have battery-powered phones. People have adapted to their 
strengths and limitations. Now they would see anything different as 
"bad, scary, and inferior". No one is trying to market a fuel-powered 
phone.


--
Ten Universal Truths for this holiday season:
 1. Show respect for others. Each person has a special gift.
 2. Share what you have. Giving makes you richer.
 3. Know who you are. You are a reflection of your family.
 4. Accept what life brings. There are many things you cannot control.
 5. Have patience. Some things cannot be rushed.
 6. Live carefully. What you do will come back to you.
 7. Take care of others. You cannot live without them.
 8. Honor your elders. They show you the way in life.
 9. Pray for guidance. Many things are not known.
10. See connections. All things are related.
--
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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

2018-12-14 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I like the last idea - Teslas to senators - but, I believe, it violates
the gifts ethics rules. Oh, well. It would be effective.


I like the idea, too. :-) Apple did something similar, by selling their 
computers to schools cheap, or even giving them away. It got their foot 
in the door, and went a long way toward training the students into 
future computer lovers!


--
Ten Universal Truths for this holiday season:
 1. Show respect for others. Each person has a special gift.
 2. Share what you have. Giving makes you richer.
 3. Know who you are. You are a reflection of your family.
 4. Accept what life brings. There are many things you cannot control.
 5. Have patience. Some things cannot be rushed.
 6. Live carefully. What you do will come back to you.
 7. Take care of others. You cannot live without them.
 8. Honor your elders. They show you the way in life.
 9. Pray for guidance. Many things are not known.
10. See connections. All things are related.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us forEVs

2018-12-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV

it takes too long to recharge an EV


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:> Maybe not for long.  Competition is 
starting to build for the fastest charge

time.  A couple of months ago, Porsche said they plan to develop their own
high speed charging network for their forthcoming EVs.  Their goal is to
charge to 80% in 15 minutes.


I just don't "get" the overwhelming focus for fast charging.

Think about it: How often do you "need" it? Most people drive about the 
same distance every day. Most EVs are charged at home, so every day you 
start out with a "full tank", and can do all your daily driving without 
needing public charging.


If fast charging is so vital, how come the market isn't flooded with 
fast chargers for cellphones, laptops, power tools, and all our other 
battery-operated toys?


My impression is that if people have to pay *extra* for fast charging, 
they won't do it. It's a feature; but in the "nice to have, but I won't 
pay extra for it" category.



hydrogen offers the convenience of a quick refuel; similar to
an ICE refill.



More importantly (though not for us), it offers the petroleum companies a
chance to retain full control over vehicle fueling infrastructure.


Exactly right! The idea that we can charge at home (especially with free 
solar energy), must strike terror into their hearts.


--
Ten Universal Truths for this holiday season:
 1. Show respect for others. Each person has a special gift.
 2. Share what you have. Giving makes you richer.
 3. Know who you are. You are a reflection of your family.
 4. Accept what life brings. There are many things you cannot control.
 5. Have patience. Some things cannot be rushed.
 6. Live carefully. What you do will come back to you.
 7. Take care of others. You cannot live without them.
 8. Honor your elders. They show you the way in life.
 9. Pray for guidance. Many things are not known.
10. See connections. All things are related.
--
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us forEVs

2018-12-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

I am wondering if Toyota... invested in Hydrogen, and now feels burned
with developing new technology...
or is comfortably milking their Hybrid technology...
Or this was purely a *dealer* driven story, which should not determine
their strategic direction…. Time will tell.


Agreed. Toyota is a very conservative company. They have always stuck 
very close to proven technology. They only built the RAV4-EV because the 
CA mandate forced them into it.


So it is ironic that Toyota developed the Prius, and became the leader 
in hybrid technology. It was completely out of character for them. I'm 
sure their dealers weren't clamoring for it, and I don't think it helped 
their regulatory situation with the CA EV mandates.



Nissan is struggling with the choice of not cooling their battery packs
and the sometimes excessive deterioration of their packs in heat.
Others invest in temp regulation for their packs and are enjoying
single  digits of capacity loss over several years of usage…


The auto industry is famous for its NIH (Not Invented Here) approach to 
things. Basically, "if we didn't think of it, we won't use it". They 
will go to any lengths to avoid a patent or technology used by a competitor.


Unfortunately, this means when they got into EVs, they ignored 100+ 
years of history of what to do, and not to do. Anyone in the EV industry 
could have told them that thermal management of the battery pack is a 
virtual necessity.


Nevertheless, it seems like every automaker ignored thermal management 
in their first EVs. They had to learn the *hard* way to add it to their 
later EVs.



Last I checked, the future will be electric – with or without Toyota.


I've always felt that an EV future is inevitable... eventually. But I'm 
not sure it will come any time soon. We haven't reached the "tipping 
point" yet. The ICE and oil industries are still very powerful, and will 
do everything in their power to maintain their monopoly on transportation.


Maybe it's time to re-read my little Christmas EV story "A Christmas 
Car". It's amazing to think that I wrote it almost 20 years ago. It's at 



--
Ten Universal Truths for this holiday season:
 1. Show respect for others. Each person has a special gift.
 2. Share what you have. Giving makes you richer.
 3. Know who you are. You are a reflection of your family.
 4. Accept what life brings. There are many things you cannot control.
 5. Have patience. Some things cannot be rushed.
 6. Live carefully. What you do will come back to you.
 7. Take care of others. You cannot live without them.
 8. Honor your elders. They show you the way in life.
 9. Pray for guidance. Many things are not known.
10. See connections. All things are related.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

2018-12-12 Thread Lee Hart via EV
The fundamental problem with these coolers is that they don't actually 
provide much cooling. Air conditioners used to be rated in "tons", which 
meant the number of tons of ice it would take to provide the same 
cooling. A 12,000 BTU air conditioner running for one day (24 hours) 
provides about the same amount of cooling as 1 ton of ice.


Weight is very important in an airplane. It would be impractical to 
carry enough ice to provide cooling for the length of a typical 
several-hour flight.


Race car drivers use "cold suits" to keep cool without the need for air 
conditioners, which would add weight and decrease performance. 
Basically, they only cool the driver; nothing else! The suits have 
little plastic tubes laced through them. An ice chest has 5 lbs or so of 
ice, and a pump circulates the cold water through the suit. This is 
"good enough" for the short duration of a race. Maybe it would be good 
enough for pilots as well?


--
Ten Universal Truths for this holiday season:
 1. Show respect for others. Each person has a special gift.
 2. Share what you have. Giving makes you richer.
 3. Know who you are. You are a reflection of your family.
 4. Accept what life brings. There are many things you cannot control.
 5. Have patience. Some things cannot be rushed.
 6. Live carefully. What you do will come back to you.
 7. Take care of others. You cannot live without them.
 8. Honor your elders. They show you the way in life.
 9. Pray for guidance. Many things are not known.
10. See connections. All things are related.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-07 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Steve Heath via EV wrote:

I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are.  As
far as I can see, it should be just simple math. The energy use measured at
the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus
some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with
conditions, but can be averaged. Am I missing something?



Not really but there are other factors that come into play such as
battery recovery time, regen and so on. It makes these losses very
difficult to calculate as they are non-linear and condition dependent.
Averaging is better than nothing.


Yes, it's better than ignoring them. However, most of these losses are 
non-linear. For example, resistive losses in the motor, batteries, and 
wiring go up as the square of the current; not linearly. Controller and 
charger efficiency are highly non-linear as well. The batteries have 
something called the Peukert effect, which means their apparent amphour 
capacity goes down as current rises.



The level of effect is also dependent on how much leeway you have in your
vehicle.  To me it is very important as I have a small battery pack - it
is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a big
difference.


I agree. For most of the history of EVs, our battery packs have always 
been "small" compared to a tank of gasoline. It has forced EV'ers to 
think about efficiency.



All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. Matters are
not helped when power consumption doubles when the heater is on. Why
manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the ancillaries so
that their use does not reduce the driving range, I don't know.
Presumably it is cost and the amount of power needed to power all the
gizmos that marketing insist must be present.  Anyway getting away from
the original topic.


It makes more sense to have one big battery than two smaller ones, only 
one of which is used to propel the car. Range inevitably drops when the 
heater or A/C is used. But that's true for ICEs as well (though not so 
much for the heater; ICE's have more heat than they know what to do with).


On the amount of power cars use: We go out of our way to have efficient 
home heating and cooling systems. We have portable clocks, computers, 
and radios that use tiny amounts of power. But cars (including EVs) are 
still designed for the "oil age" when power is infinite and free.


It takes more power to heat or cool a car than an entire apartment. Cars 
have negligible insulation, lots of air leaks, and are all single-pane 
windows. Most of the lights are still tungsten bulbs. A car's clock, 
radio, and computers use 100's of times more power than your other 
battery-operated clocks, radios, or computers. The automakers have 
simply not had to think about power.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-06 Thread Lee Hart via EV

George Tyler via EV wrote:

I know my Prius computers draw a total of 250W standing still. if the
leaf was similar, whats 250Wh consumed in an hour even if you did not move.


Just a quick data point: My wife drove our 2013 Leaf to choir practice 
this evening. Temperature about 15 deg.F. It used 40% of its charge on 
the way there with the heater on. So on the way back, she left the 
heater off (just used the seat and steering wheel heaters), and it used 
20%. So the heater is using about as much power as driving the car down 
the road.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
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Re: [EVDL] EV emission limits

2018-11-28 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Looks like EVs and hybrids get an exemption from RF emission limist of the
FCC’s part-15 limits.

Looks like one could bulid a 1 MHz transmitter right in the middle of the
AM broadcast band and run it at 50,000 watts from an EV battery and not
violate part-15 limits!  (exemption #1 and #8 and #10!)


An EV can easily have a 50,000 watt controller. They generally switch at 
15 KHz or so; not 1 MHz. But the harmonics can easily extend up into the 
broadcast band. If the wiring is done badly enough, it can produce a 
substantial amount of power in the AM broadcast band.


The "saving grace" is that a car is too small to have a decent antenna 
at these frequencies. The wavelength at 1 MHz is 300 meters. This 
severely limits the range of the noise that an EV could radiate.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
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Re: [EVDL] EV sounds

2018-11-26 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

What I'd really like to see is an EV sound box that sounds like some of the
extrordinary sounds collected in this Video.


Great arc-n-spark shows! :-)

My favorite EV sound effects were produced the monster General Electric 
GG-1 electric locomotive. First built in 1934, they continued in service 
until 1983.




Here you have an EV with 12 AC motors that delivered 4600 HP 
continuous-duty, or double that peak. It ran on 11,000V AC, and had a 
top speed over 100 MPH.


I heard one operating in the late 1970's. Since it ran on 25 Hz AC (not 
50 or 60 Hz), it had a deep subsonic throb that is hard to describe. The 
switchgear to control all those motors also added its own precussive 
effects. Add an occasional arc from the overhead pantograph, and you 
have something right out of a science fiction movie.


--
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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

2018-11-10 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Customer: The “X” feature  in my car doesn’t work right.
Dealer: That’s okay. We think that it’s “better” to use something else.
That’s acceptable? Really?


Sure it is! Marketing will convince him. Look, we've been convincing 
them to buy our ICEs for years! :-)


The Manager and the Engineer -- by Lee Hart
(inspired by Lewis Carrol's The Walrus and the Carpenter)

The Manager and Engineer were counting up their score;
The Manager’s showed ninety-eight; the Engineer’s was more.
And both lay bunkered in a trap, and both stood up and swore.

I hate to see, said Engineer, such quantities of sand.
How they could miss its proper use I cannot understand.
Add water, lime, and pave it all; I think it would be grand.

The rules are wrong, said Manager. If I could sweep them clean,
I’m sure that I could make this hole in less than seventeen.
I doubt it, said the Engineer. Your slice is pretty mean.

The time has come, said Manager, to speak of many things;
Of ISOs, and TQMs, and where the market swings,
And how our budgets rise, yet fall, and whether time has wings.

Delight the customer, he said. It’s our new goal, you see.
That’s easy, said the Engineer. Ship better goods for free.
No, no, the Manager replied. You do not follow me.

Profit is our real goal, by management’s decree.
In that case, said the Engineer, I see your strategy.
To please them with our same old junk, call Marketing, not me.

Low product cost, said Manager. And build them quick, you see?
And customers demand, of course, the highest quality.
Can’t do them all, said Engineer. Pick two, then call on me.

CPDM, said Manager, sets rules for every game.
I fear this rule, said Engineer, is innovation’s bane.
how differs golf from basketball if rules are made the same?

Continuous improvement will make our products shine.
This mitigates quite strong against a major new design.
You cannot cross a river going one step at a time.

With PS6 I’ve graphed your way, the Manager observed.
Before design? said Engineer. I’d never have the nerve.
I learned to get my data first, and then to plot the curve.

Re-engineer the company! Our course must be reversed!
That makes me ask, said Engineer. Who engineered it first?
Re-engineer could mean replace; I fear you mean the worst.

(This is full of once-fashionable corporate buzz-words. Anyone who has
worked in large corporations will probably shudder with recognition
at each one).

ISO International Standards Organization
TQM Total Quality Management
CPDM Common Product Design Methodology (making Cola, Computers, or Cars 
is all the same)

Continuous Improvement (no new products; just evolve old ones)
PS6 Microsoft's Project Scheduler (made pretty graphs out of nonsense)
Re-engineer the company (fire everone, and hire them back as temps or 
contract workers)

--
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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

2018-11-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Roger Stockton via EV wrote:

Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?


Good point; perhaps the real cost savings isn't the radio itself, but that its 
absence allows them to cut corners (and cost) elsewhere on EMI measures?

That said, my conversion doesn't need shielded conductors or a shield around the controller in order 
for AM to be perfectly usable, so I'm not sure where they would cut costs such that they needed to 
eliminate AM capability to "hide" their cost saving measures?  Commercial EVs pretty much 
always have the controller in an aluminum enclosure, so it should be largely shielded for 
"free"; I doubt we'll see controllers in plastic boxes very soon ;^>


That's been my experience as well. The AM radio in my LeCar EV 
conversion works. It has a classic ADC series motor, Curtis 1231C 
controller, and normal non-shielded wiring. There is some noise on weak 
AM stations, but they still work.


Now, if the modern factory EVs are using much faster switching edges in 
their controllers, there could be a lot more noise.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
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affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

2018-11-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV

ROBERT via EV wrote:

I do not understand your statement "Also, I learned not to put them
in an aluminum box " The original boxes were made of aluminum.  In
addition, I think all aircraft NiCad use aluminum boxes.


My experience is that the potassium hydroxide electolyte is highly 
corrosive to aluminum. If it gets on the aluminum, it corrodes it.


Potassium hydroxide doesn't seem to bother steel, however. That is the 
reverse of the effect of the sulfuric acid electrolyte in lead-acid 
batteries.



I am sending the batteries to Recyclers of America.  They pay for
shipping. I am paying a $0.75 per pound recycling fee.  Not low cost
for 1500 Lb of batteries.


It's too bad you couldn't find a good home that could put these 
batteries back to work. But congratulations for doing the right thing on 
recycling them!


--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

2018-11-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV

paul dove via EV wrote:

Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions anyone know?


If radiated, it will cause problems not only for your own car; but will 
also wipe out AM in the car next to it!


Our Prius has an AM radio, though it has a "tin ear" -- poor weak signal 
reception. This has been a problem for me on long trips. FM stations 
fade in and out as you drive, but especially at night, you can listen to 
the same AM station for your entire drive.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
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affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
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[EVDL] Curtis 1227-2406 controller docs

2018-11-06 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Hi all,

A friend called me today. He's building a personal mobility vehicle, and 
acquired a Curtis 1227-2406 controller on ebay for it. I can't find any 
data on this particular model.


It appears to be a Curtis 1207B model (24v, 200a, microprocessor 
programmable). The 1207 has a whole range of options that have to be set 
with a special programming box (which he doesn't have). Since his 
application should be pretty light duty for this controller, the hope is 
that its stock programming might be good enough. But that still leaves 
open questions like which of half a dozen different throttle assemblies 
it's programmed to use (potbox, hall effect, wig-wag, etc.)


Does anyone have any information on it?

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

2018-11-04 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I’m pretty sure that hazardous waste drop-offs do not recycle the batteries.

Let me edit correct that - that is, unless they say that they do.


Even then, I'm not even sure they do.

The guy at the counter might not know. You'd have to explicitly say they 
were nicads; then (maybe) he'd check.


Or, some of these drop-off have been accustomed to just sending 
everything to China or somewhere, and letting them sort it out. That 
doesn't work any more.


My worry is that they get so few nicads nowdays that they wouldn't know 
what they are, or what to do with them. They could wind up just being 
thrown into the bin with lead-acids or something else.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
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Re: [EVDL] Easy to hard solar charging.

2018-10-30 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 30 Oct 2018 at 12:12, Lee Hart via EV wrote:


Perhaps the panels could be stored when driving, and opened up when
parked?


Sounds technically feasible, but limited in utility.

For one thing, I don't think that the in most cases it would be feasible for
the panels to expand beyond the vehicle's footprint.  That would disrupt
other parked vehicles and get in the way of pedestrians.  I can see the
disputes arising when one vehicle parks and deploys its panels, which then
shade another vehicle's!

The other problem is the potential for accidental or deliberate (vandalism)
damage.

I don't see something like this ever becoming mainstream, but it has
potential.


Indeed, it would be a "disruptive" technology, so some creativity would 
be required. :-)


Maybe a solar roof on a van, that gets it high enough not to be easily 
vandalized.


What about somthing like a umbrella or awning that easily unfolds.

Or something that looks like a boat or something on a roof rack. Kayak 
racks often put them at an angle.


Maybe disguise it as something else, like a billboard or advertising 
display. A "billboard" could stick up pretty high, to get lots of area. 
Selctively park so it's facing the sun. Have it fold down while driving 
to minimize wind resistance.


PV cells could be arranged to spell out a message. Or use a color 
overlay that does not attenuate the red-infrared wavelengths that the 
panels use, but either reflects or absorbs the blue light that they don't.


It just occurred to me that the Oscar Meyer Weinermobile happens to be a 
fairly streamlined shape, but has a lot of surface area. Maybe talk them 
into a solar-powered version for advertising? :-)


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
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Re: [EVDL] Easy to hard solar charging.

2018-10-30 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Towing a simple 4'x4' garden trailer behind my priius drops MPG from 55 to
40.  A huge drop.
And solar might do well in summer, but with only 27 degree sun angles at
noon in the winter. your power is only 45%


Of course, aerodynamics are everything. Was your trailer just a 
rectangular box, with fully exposed wheels?


Perhaps the panels could be mounted on the car, but curved to match the 
body shape. That should have little to no aerodynamic effect. No losss 
from the weight of a trailer, either.


A car spends a lot more time parked than being driven. Perhaps the 
panels could be stored when driving, and opened up when parked? Some 
kind of fold-out roof rack? It could even be tilt-able to better face 
the sun.


--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-27 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Did you see the price? Not practical. Lawrence Rhodes


Who buys Corvettes because they're "practical"?

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-27 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I can't get my son to drive the Leaf for anything but Lyft. He says the girls 
think it's cool he can drive a sticksheesh...


Well, Duh!

My son is the same way. He thinks our Leaf and Prius are lame-o 
geek-mobiles, and so always drives our pickup. He too has TB (Teenage 
Brain disorder).


You have to understand the teenage brain. You should have gotten some 
gas-hog SUV or big pickup truck; then your son would hate them and 
insist on driving something as much different from dad's cars as 
possible... like a Leaf or Prius. :-)


--
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-26 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I donno.  My family of four before the kids left had 5.  Not a one cost more
than $5k.  Salvage Priuses for daily use, plus a gramma's hand-me-down  Geo
Metro and an old Ford van for occasional towing and hauling.  And a few
un-registered old EV projects out back.  The entire fleet cost much less
than a single average new American car.

We drove a vehicle appropriate for the trip.


That's my situation as well. We have one car per driver in the family. 
Each one is different, so we can pick the vehicle best suited to the job 
at hand. A 2013 Leaf (daily driver), a 2001 Prius (long trips), and a 
2010 pickup (towing, hauling).


It doesn't appear to me that this strategy is at all unusual.
--
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Re: [EVDL] Automaker pitches (Call for nationwide U.S. EV Mandate) woo

2018-10-26 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I don't particularly find GM to be altruistic. Am I right, reading
between the lines, the GM fears a repeat of the Japanese takeover in the
'70s ? This time around, VW and other European manufacturers are ramping
up to an all-EV fleet. If they succeed, my guess is they will outsell
gas cars, even in the U.S. GM is sniffing the wind.


I agree. Big corporations aren't about altruism; they're about profit. 
GM has simply decided there is more profit in staying in the EV market 
than in getting out.


I'd guess they spent a lot on EV tooling, and will lose it if they don't 
sell enough EVs to recover it.


GM is so big that it is a "nation" onto itself. They pay little 
attention to what the other automaker "nations" do, and are influenced 
more by their own internal politics.


--
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem
is need for a variety of uses.

What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be
able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
two? I doubt it.


You're right; people tend to want a "universal" solution; one vehicle to 
do everything.


But that's not really practical. It forces compromises so the vehicle is 
not really good at anything. You see luxury pickup trucks that can't 
really haul anything, or huge SUVs being used for single-person commuting.


So most people have more than one car. Each vehicle can be more closely 
optimzed to the job it spends most of its time doing.


One hopes that EVs will often be these second vehicles. If it's for 
commuting, it doesn't need long range, or high seating capacity, or 
towing capabilities. The owner will have another vehicle for that.


--
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Re: [EVDL] Reconfigurable Battery Packs

2018-10-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Ed Blackmond via EV wrote:

Another way to approach it is to use the switching to build an AC
rather than DC battery pack.  By switching between different
series/parallel combinations it is possible to create a multi-level
converter. This can create very good sign waves without a frequency
component at a PWM frequency. Create three strings operating 120
degrees out of phase from each other and the battery circuit becomes
a very nice variable frequency three phase drive. Running the strings
in phase and synchronized to the utility grid and the battery circuit
becomes a charger. With sensors monitoring all the cells, they can be
switched in and out of the circuit keeping all the cells at the same
state of charge. One circuit integrates the function of battery cell
protection, motor drive, and charger.


This approach is common in very high power converters (like utility 
company inverters that are handling megawatts).


A 3-phase inverter can intrinsically generate a 2-level AC output 
without PWM because it can connect windings in series or parallel. For 
example, a 300v DC source can apply 0v +100v +200v +100v 0v -100v -200v 
-100v to each winding of a wye-connected motor. This waveform already 
has a fairly low harmonic content.


If you add the ability to switch the DC source voltage in 2 or 3 
series/parallel steps, the inverter can deliver a pretty good sinewave 
without high frequency PWM or fast devices.


--
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Re: [EVDL] Reconfigurable Battery Packs

2018-10-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV

bvgandhi via EV wrote:

Hi,

I have lately come across a lot of work done on reconfigurable battery packs
which uses the concept of scheduling of battery cells. Instead of oversizing
the battery pack with too many cells and adding additional failure modes,
reconfiguration works on the idea of using switches and scheduling cells as
per power requirement of the vehicle. Does anyone here have any opinion or
ideas about this this or has seen previous practical implementations ?


In general, if you have the cells, then *use* the cells. Otherwise, they 
are just dead weight.


All types of batteries have internal resistance. This means they are 
more efficient at lower currents (more amphours, less voltage drop). 
Discharging them at higher currents increases the I^2R losses (i.e. less 
range, more voltage drop). So it is better to always draw power from all 
the cells, rather than first from some of the cells, then from different 
cells, etc.


However, cells have different capacities. If you always draw the same 
power from every cell, then some will go dead sooner than others. So it 
makes sense to have some method to distribute the load between the cells 
according to their ability.


Many old EVs had reconfigurable battery packs. Their controllers were 
basically a set of switches that reconnected the pack in various 
series/parallel combinations to adjust the voltage and thus speed. 
During the times when cells are in parallel, they are forced to the same 
voltage, which automatically balances the state of charge between them. 
The ones at a lower state of charge naturally supplied less current. See 
the Henney Kilowatt controller at 
 for an example.


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Re: [EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather

2018-10-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Jay Summet via EV wrote:

Note that using a battery (both charging and discharging) will heat the
battery because of the waste heat loss inherent in the inefficiencies of
the charging/discharging process.


That's true. But the efficiency of good EV cells is high (95% or more) 
that very little waste heat is generated. And, the pack is so heavy that 
this heat does not change the pack temperature very much. It's likely to 
be 10 deg.F or less.


Charge efficiency is worst when the pack is nearly full. The older 
lead-acid or nickel-based chemistries could generate more heat because 
they were routinely overcharged for balancing. But that's a bad idea 
with lithium chemistries -- overcharging is avoided because it 
dramatically shortens life!



QuickCharging / Supercharging will heat up the battery faster/more than
a regular L2 charger or trickle charger.


Yes. The faster the charge, the less efficient it is and the more waste 
heat will be generated.


--
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather

2018-10-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I know that Lithium batteries perform worse at lower temps.  But what does
that mean? Charging, or using? which is worse. Does cold prevent the battery
from accepting a given capacity, or does cold prevent one from using a given
capacity that is already in the battery?


Batteries are "cold blooded". Cold temperatures slow the chemical 
reaction rates and increase the internal resistance, making both 
charging and discharging more difficult. The capacity is still there; 
you just can't use it without the cell voltage going out of spec.


But the exact amount of performance loss varies. There are many 
variations of lithium cells, and each is affected differently by 
temperature.


If capacity and performance in cold weather are important, that means 
providing some way to insulate and heat the battery to keep it up to 
operating temperature.

--
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affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
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Re: [EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]

2018-10-22 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I think what would be interesting, perhaps not so practical, would be to
design an EV for aerodynamcis. But, when parked, it would "unfurl" a
large collection of solar panels which could be more-or-less aimed.


Various people have done this as a "one off" experiment. I guess it 
works, but is a bit bulky and a nuisance to set up and take down.


There was a guy who added a small wind geneerator to it as well. When 
parked, he set it up to generate power from the wind even if there was 
no sun. That works even at night. :-)


I think it might be easier to integrate the PV cells into the body of 
the vehicle itself. That's what the solar raycers do. They achieve a 
highly aerodynamic shape by bonding the individual PV cells directly to 
the body. This is very time-consuming on an one-off basis. But in a mass 
production situation, I imagine it wouldn't be much different than 
binding the cells to any other basically flat surface. You could have a 
solar hood, or trunk lid, or roof.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-21 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have,
never will.


Except that there are numerous examples of solar-powered vehicles that 
*have* demonstrated substantial range at highway speeds.



There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
conditions and slow speeds.


Efficiency numbers in this range have been independently measured and 
confirmed many times.



It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.


The Solectria Sunrise is a 4-passenger sedan with a demonstrated 
efficiency of 40 wh/mile in several Tour de Sol races. These were done 
on standard roads at posted speeds. It was also crash tested, and passed.


Some of Amory Lovins hypercar prototypes have achieved similar 
efficiencies and crash test results.


Race cars are built with very light high strenth materials and 
techniques. People have survived amazing crashes at very high speeds 
with these designs.

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are 
actually doing it. -- Chinese proverb

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-21 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga  wrote:

Simple answer I use is that 12 full size home panels can fully charge a
typical EV to the American average 40 miles a day forever.

But it is far mor economical to put those on the roof of your house or
garage than on the car.


That's true... if you have a garage, or own your house. But a great many 
people are renters, and can't install PV on their roofs. If they have a 
car, and have no choice but to park it outside all year, then PV on the 
car is better than nothing.


Also, the 40 mile/day average is just that; the average. Fully half of 
the driving public drive less than that. Even if PV on the car only 
provides half that, it' will still satisfy some fraction of people's 
daily needs.


For most of my 50-year career, I have lived within 10 miles of where I 
worked. Even my early 1970's EVs with only a 40-mile range fully met my 
daily driving needs.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-21 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Larry Gales via EV wrote:

When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different results
from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the assumption
that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are not
actually lying.


The problem is that most people assume that EVs must be exactly like 
ICEs. Typical ICEs today weigh a ton or more, and have the aerodynamics 
of a brick. All those edgy lines, huge grilles, big fat tires, and rough 
bottom mean it takes lot of horsepower to drag it down the road.


The automakers are building EVs the same way. Big, heavy, poor aerodynamics.

But there are other ways to do it. Race cars and airplanes are much 
lighter, and have aerodynamics based on performance rather than styling. 
Amory Lovins has been championing the "hypercar" concept for decades. 
The basic idea is that if you halve the weight, and cut the aerodynamic 
losses in half, it takes 1/4th as much energy to push it down the road. 
Yet it can be just as strong and safe, by using modern materials and 
construction techniques.


EVs like Stella Lux and Stella Vie demonstrate how successful this 
strategy can be. When you have a 4-passenger car that weighs 826 lbs and 
1/3 the aerodynamic losses, solar power becomes a viable way to power it!


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Re: [EVDL] 12 v desulfator charger

2018-10-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV
>From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>There used to be a Canadian charger company that had a desulfator function. 
>Sol something. Can't remember the name. Can someone remember or recommend 
>an inexpensive charger/ desulfator.  I am going to use Genesis 12v 13 ep. 4 in 
>series.  I want to use four small chargers.  

"Desulfator" is usually marketing doubletalk. All it means is that the charger 
can apply a higher-than-usual voltage at lower-than-usual current to a very 
dead battery. The doubletalk will make a big deal about their secret 
proprietary pulsed charging algorithms. But, most plain old dumb car battery 
charger consists of nothing but a transformer and rectifier; they inevitably 
deliver over 16v of pulsed charging current into a completely dead battery.

If you don't let your batteries run too dead, you'll never need to "desulfate" 
them anyway. If you *do* run them that dead, nothing is going to recover more 
than a fraction of their original capacity anyway. It's cheaper to buy a new 
battery than pay for some expensive "desulfator". These things are sold mainly 
for car batteries, where even 1% of their original amphour capacity is still 
enough to start the car (3 seconds at 300 amps is only 0.25 amphour).

I have a couple of EV lawnmowers. The chargers that came with them were junk 
(battery killers). I use individual 12v chargers (Ault brand), built for 
electric wheelchairs. The 3 batteries in one are all still good, and the 2 in 
the Robomower are now over 10 years old.

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

2018-10-12 Thread Lee Hart via EV
Rod Hower via EV wrote:
>>> You probably shouldn't use microcontrollers because they have
>>> millions of transistors with the potential of failure...

David Roden wrote:
>> I don't think it's quite the same. The microcontroller has lots
>> of semiconductors, but they're all formed at one go on one
>> substrate. OTOH, the lithium cells are individual units,
>> manufactured individually, with individually welded connections.   
>> 
>> I too was skeptical about the Tesla ant colony battery construction
>> -- which IIRC actually was used in earlier EVs with much less
>> publicity and far lower production numbers. I believe the T-Zero
>> Roadster was one of them.  

Paul Dove wrote
> It’s called sarcasm! 

(smiles) so true... but it's hard to recognize sarcasm when folks aren't 
familiar with the actual situation.

Putting lots of parts on the same chip means the reliability of each part is 
closely related to the rest. If one part is good, they're all good. If one 
transistor is weak, or one resistor has a resistance too low, they are ALL are 
weak or low resistance. And when one part fails, they all likely to fail.

Same for batteries. Yes, a big cell is really a lot of small cells inside. It 
may have multiple plates wired in parallel, or one big plate folded or rolled 
into a cylinder (any piece of which would have been a fine cell in its own 
right). All these little cells were manufactured at the same time, and are 
"identical twins". Then they all get put in one big case, which seals the whole 
lot of them. This means they will all be kept together, at the same 
temperature, and experience the same charging and discharging regimen.

Contrast that with individual cells. When they started mass-producing cheap 
18650 lithium cells for laptops, many people independently came up with the 
idea of using thousands of them to build an EV pack. The initial attempts were 
failures, because there were too many differences between cells. Lots of 
failures and fires. Alan Cocconi is the first person I heard of that succeeded 
with them in his tZero. It required carefully matched cells, and a BMS to 
individually monitor them. The tZero inspired the Tesla Roadster, and led to 
their subsequent EVs.

It only works if you get every single detail right. That's expensive. You can 
afford it for luxury cars where there is enough money to do it right. But I 
have serious doubts that it can be scaled to mass-produce cheap EVs. They'll 
get beat by the first company to figure out the best way to use far smaller 
numbers of much bigger cells.

Complex solutions always come first. Simple solutions take longer to perfect; 
but usually win out in the end.


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Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr, $75yr for pih& hevs in MS (v)

2018-10-10 Thread Lee Hart via EV

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

JACKSON, MS (WLBT) - Owners of hybrid and electric vehicles in Mississippi
received a notice from the state Department of Revenue informing them of the
new annual tax on their vehicles.

The new tax, which took effect on October 1, will tax $75 for hybrid
vehicles and $150 for total electric vehicles annually.

State residents that drive gas-required vehicles are taxed 18 cents for
every gallon of gas they purchase. The revenue collected goes toward the
state’s transportation and infrastructure fund.

State leaders adopted this new tax as an alternative to raising the gas tax.


So let's see... How far does the average Mississipian drive per year? 
Let's say 15,000 miles. And let's say the average car gets 25 mpg. Then 
he's using 15000 miles / 25 mpg = 600 gallons, and paying $0.18 x 600 
gallons = $108 tax per year.


If he switched to a hybrid Prius and doubled his gas mileage, he'd spend 
half as much in gasoline taxes, or $54. But they are going to charge him 
an additional $75, so $129 per year.


And if he switched to an EV, he'd pay $150 per year.

It sounds like a *penalty* for driving hybrid or electric.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 45 li-ion battery-making gigfactories around the world

2018-10-10 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Jay Summet via EV wrote:

However, the availability of used / salvage large format cells will
increase greatly as more and more EV's are crashed or reach end of life
for other reasons.


That's true. It benefits hobby EV'ers like me. :-)

But, the hobby EV market is almost dead. It seems that no one wants to 
build their own EV when they can buy a new one from a major automaker 
with huge subsidies, or get a used one dirt cheap.


--
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affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
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Re: [EVDL] Big Batteries in 1957

2018-10-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

>> I keep wondering when someone will pile hundreds of lbs of lithium
>> cells on a bicycle, and ride it 1001 miles to beat their record.

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

1000 miles on a bike: the limiting factor isn't the battery, it's the
butt !


Indeed! OK, so use a 3-wheel recumbent with a good seat. It would be a 
purpose-built vehicle anyway, just to set the record.


Oh, and it would need a fancy futuristic body shell, to hold all the 
advertising!


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Re: [EVDL] Big Batteries in 1957

2018-10-05 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga wrote:
This is the 101'st anniversary of Sputnick...


Sputnik was a monumental achievement. It was instrumental in putting 
mankind in space. It certainly inspired me (and I was only 7 at the 
time). Though it was just 61 years ago (not 101).



It had taps for powering the screen (90 V) and pentode
grids of the output stages (10 V), as well as the manipulator (20 V).


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I did some tinkering with tubes back in the day, and as far as I can
remember, that's mostly gibberish. A pentode has a control grid, screen
grids, and suppressor grids. I've never heard of a "manipulator."  Maybe
someone else knows what that might be.


My guess is that it's a bad translation of the Russian words for 
cathode, grid, screen, suppressor, and plate (what Americans called the 
5 elements in a pentode).



As for silver zinc batteries, they do have outstanding specific energy.  The
downsides are limited cycle life, I think because of dendrite growth, and a
price like they were made out of silver, which they are.

IIRC GM used them in at least one of the Electrovairs (Corvair conversions)
they built back in the 1960s.


I think both Electrovairs used them. Great batteries; but only good for 
a couple hundred cycles life. Silver is expensive; but back then, its 
price was fixed by the government (like gold). And you did get the 
silver back when the batteries were recycled.


Both silver and zinc are good at growing long thin crystals. Good for 
surface area (high capacity); but bad for producing shorts. I worked 
with silvercells at Kodak in the 1970's -- they were interested in the 
silver recovery end of it (taking the charged battery apart to recover 
the silver). :-)



BAT (remember them?) also built a bragging-rights conversion EV with them in
the 1980s, so they could send out news releases about their hundreds-of-mile
range (craftily not mentioning how much the battery cost or how long it
would survive).


I think they actually achieved a range of over 1000 miles? Besides not 
mentioning that using a ton of silver batteries, they neglected to 
mention that the vehicle was essentially a golf cart, driven on a closed 
track at low speeds for days.


I keep wondering when someone will pile hundreds of lbs of lithium cells 
on a bicycle, and ride it 1001 miles to beat their record.

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(Albert Einstein)
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Re: [EVDL] FW: 12v Inverter in Trunk of Volt

2018-10-01 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Subject: 12v Inverter in Trunk of Volt

I found that a 1 kW or larger 12v inverter to 60 Hz 120v easily fits in the
left rear corner pocket in the Volt.
Just cut the existing panel cover hole larger in the plastic and then
fashion a new cover.


Fits nice. But make sure it gets adequate cooling!

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Re: [EVDL] Products with temperature sensing in the AC plug?

2018-09-27 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Gail Lucas via EV wrote:

Lee,
I still have a toaster with a fabric cord. Would it likely have a
thermal cutout in the plug?
Gail


It might! Is the plug unusually large? As I recall, mom's was black 
bakelite, round, in two halves and riveted together. There was no 
obvious way to get at the wires (to replace it or tighten screws, for 
example).


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Re: [EVDL] Products with temperature sensing in the AC plug?

2018-09-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Peter Gabrielsson via EV wrote:

Can any of you oldtimers think of any product that had temperature sensing
in the AC plug? Preferably from before 2011.


I suspect it's an old and "obvious" idea that's been used at various 
times by various manufacturers.


Home microwave ovens were first offered in the late 1960's. They drew 
enough power for long enough to overheat kitchen outlets. At least one 
brand had a thermostatic cutout in the plug to prevent damage.


My mother had an ancient turkey roaster; old enough that the cord was 
woven fabric instead of rubber or plastic. It had a thermal cutout in 
the plug.

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(Albert Einstein)
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

2018-09-14 Thread Lee Hart via EV

George Tyler via EV wrote:

From my experience, we had an in-house test company that ran independently,

we wanted to know the truth, results are not released to the public but used
to improve reliability. The name of the company is at stake. When I see
something like a cell phone company that has battery fires I know it's
either a mickey mouse company, or someone did not do their job properly!
There is nothing to be gained by "fudging" results


Amen to that, George! That is exactly my experience. I worked designing 
furnace controls and large home appliance controls. These are consumer 
products (have to be cheap), but are also expected to last a long time 
(decades) and also MUST be safe! That meant the product testing cost 
more than the parts.


Cars have to be designed the same way; otherwise they can KILL somone!

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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

2018-09-12 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't say prove either. But testing can be far better than the
old tried, and not very good cycling tests.


It all depends on who is doing the testing, and why.

If it's being done by marketing to promote sales, they're likely to pick 
a test procedure that gives the best results possible. Often, they won't 
specify the test procedure used, or leave out crucial information.


If it's done by a customer, to evaluate how long it's likely to last in 
their product, they are more likely to strive for meaningful test results.


If it's done by an independent researcher, look at who's paying for the 
testing.

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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: A comparative efficiency study of silicon-based solid state transformers - IEEE Conference Publication

2018-09-07 Thread Lee Hart via EV
From: Jan Steinman via EV 
>> In summary a solid state transformer is less efficient

> I'm certain this is not true, even on a Pin vs Pout basis, and certainly
> not on a size or weight basis.
>
> Eddy-current losses and I2R losses are greater the lower the frequency.
> By choosing the frequency and the ferroresonant components carefully,
> one can easily get 10x the efficiency.
>
> To verify, find an old, heavy "wall wart" 60Hz transformer. Plug it in
> for an hour or so. Feel it. It's warm! Even with no load.

Eddy current losses go UP with frequency. I2R losses don't correlate well to 
frequency. Higher frequencies reduce the wire length; but "skin effect" reduces 
the effectiveness of the wire (the higher the frequency, the shallower the 
current will penetrate into the surface of a conductor).

Transformer performance is mainly determined by the design tradeoffs. What did 
the designer care about? Size, weight, cost, efficiency? You can optimize for 
any of these at any frequency.

The efficiency of a dirt-cheap near-junk quality transformer is truly bad. Many 
of these have so little iron and such thin wire that the resistance of the 
winding is what limits the current; not the inductance.

Compare this to a quality 60Hz transformer. These routinely have efficiencies 
in excess of 95%, and can be as high as 99% if optimized for efficiency.

The main drawback of 60Hz transformers is not efficiency; it's size and weight.


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Re: [EVDL] DC-DC

2018-08-27 Thread Lee Hart via EV
From: Gary Krysztopik via EV 
>I have two of these (not working) for free if anyone wants to fix them.
>You pay shipping from Oregon.


I can fix them, but am not sure it's worth the effort. I've fixed a few of 
them. The "how-to" is in the EVDL "files" section.

The repairs don't last. You fix one thing, and before long something else will 
go wrong. These are really built for AC line use nice clean dry indoor 
environments. The are not intended for DC input, outdoors and in vehicles where 
they get hot/cold/wet/dirty/shock/vibration etc.)

Lee Hart

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Re: [EVDL] DC-DC

2018-08-27 Thread Lee Hart via EV
From: Robert Elton via EV 
>Hi Folks, has anyone modified the DLS-55 (build date April 2015) or later to
>accept a DC input? I bought one to replace a 2009 model but IOTA Engineering
>say it can't work with DC input. It does deliver a 14V output but drops
>voltage the moment you put load on it. There are minor differences on the
>board, but it seems to my novice understanding that there wouldn't be much
>needed to kick this into play. 

What is your DC pack voltage? The Iota has a 120vac input, which it simply 
rectifies to produce about 170vdc. This is what powers the internal DC/DC 
converter. As long as your pack is reasonably close to this, it should work.

I have a little experience with the Iotas. They generally worked with 144vdc 
packs, but at 120vdc or less the output was reduced, and at less than 96vdc had 
the problem you mentioned with very low output, and tended to overheat.

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Re: [EVDL] Roland Wiench

2018-08-23 Thread Lee Hart via EV

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

If you've been on the EVDL for a while, you probably remember reading posts
by Roland Wiench... I'm sad to report that Roland passed away on
the 16th of March this year.


I am deeply saddened to hear of Roland's passing. He was a real EV 
pioneer! I don't think I've ever run across anyone with more 
determination and will to succeed. I always wanted to get out to meet 
him in person, and see his beloved El Camino.


Roland was not a man to take halfway measures. He did things THOROUGHLY! 
I think he had more controls in his EV than the cockpit of a 747 
jetliner, and more safety backup systems than a nuclear power plant.


If you needed to know how to solve a problem so it would never ever 
return again, he was the guy to talk to. He took the belt-and-suspenders 
approach to a whole new level. He was an absolute fountain of knowledge 
on the industrial-strength approach to things. We have indeed lost a 
priceless pioneer of EV history.


--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Testing batteries

2018-08-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Fri Aug 17 08:33:16 PDT 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

I have been considering renting or leasing my battery balancers. That
might satisfy those that don't want to spend any money or make one
themselves. But I tried it once; and it took 6 months to get it back. :-/


Require a deposit to be refunded when returned ON TIME.  (prorate refund for 
late returns)


That would work for a cheap tool; like if I was renting a multimeter. 
But not for big-ticket items. People won't pay a deposit that would 
cover the cost if they didn't return it.


Big outfits (like car rental companies, etc.) can rent expensive things 
for low deposits because they can do enough credit checks, and lock up 
your credit card etc. so if you don't return the car, they can STILL get 
you. I don't have that option.


--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Mom yanks kids from e-toy-suv w/ smoking pack before it flames

2018-08-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Roger Stockton via EV wrote:

In the article it is said to be a "SPORTrax Awesome XL", which does
not appear to be a Powerwheels product.

It is described as 4WD, and is remote controllable (for parental
override) as well as the normal occupant-controllable.

Perhaps most importantly, it requires 2 12-volt batteries (12V 10Ah
per the product description; Powerwheels use a pair of 6-volt), and
the batteries do *not* appear to be included!  So, it is entirely
possible that the buyer of this toy installed inappropriate
batteries:




Ah; thanks Roger! It clearly is NOT a Powerwheels product. "Awesome XL" 
appears to be the manufacturer.


It will be interesting to see more info on this story.

--



"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Testing batteries

2018-08-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

ROBERT via EV wrote:

Lee, you may be close to a low cost solution.  I need to look at the design and 
a modification.  Thanks, Bob.


Well, it's an "open source" design . 
The complete schematics and software are all on the web. The earlier 
rev.A version would be simpler to build yourself. Also quite a number of 
people have built their own versions, with different micros, relays, 
features, etc.


The big 30 amp relays are the biggest cost item. If you don't need to 
charge/discharge at high current, you can save a lot by using smaller 
relays.


For those that find relays "out of fashion", you can use solid-state 
relays. Just be aware that they are more expensive, and have some safety 
concerns (they tend to fail SHORTED).


I have been considering renting or leasing my battery balancers. That 
might satisfy those that don't want to spend any money or make one 
themselves. But I tried it once; and it took 6 months to get it back. :-/


--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Mom yanks kids from e-toy-suv w/ smoking pack before it flames

2018-08-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

paul dove wrote:

Any electrical system can burn up. All you need it to short the battery if 
there is no fuse or you bypass the fuse then the wire becomes the fuse and can 
easily catch plastic on fire


I agree... but not like that! Something was fueling that fire. Something 
not normally in a Powerwheels Jeep.


Unless they've changed something very recently, the Powerwheels battery 
already contain a fuse. There is nothing under the hood except the 
battery itself. The "controller" is just a pair of switches under the 
central "gearshift" lever. In back, there is a motor in each rear wheel. 
That's it.


The body is plastic with a flame retardant. It can burn, but goes out if 
something isn't maintaining the fire. When it burns, it melts into a 
gooey mess that smoulders, turns black, bubbles, and releases lots of 
black smoke.


Maybe this is some other brand? Or a cheap knock-off?

--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Mom yanks kids from e-toy-suv w/ smoking pack before it flames

2018-08-16 Thread Lee Hart via EV

brucedp5 via EV wrote:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-andover-massachusetts-michelle-kline-kids-electric-toy-car-bursts-into-flames-video/
Mother yanks 2 children from electric toy car before it's engulfed in flames


There's got to be more to the story.

It looks like one of the classic "Powerwheels" jeeps that have been sold 
for 20+ years. My son had one, and so have numerous friends. I've fixed 
them for friends and neighbors for years.


The last time I saw them in the stores, they were still using lead-acid 
batteries, which basically can't burn. I don't know of anything in these 
toys that would burn light that!


I'm wondering if somone substituted some cheap substandard lithium 
battery pack in it?


--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Testing batteries

2018-08-16 Thread Lee Hart via EV

ROBERT via EV wrote:

If someone wanted to test 300 - 400 NICAD or NIMH cells for capacity, how can 
it be done efficiently?  I do not want to take 6 months charging and 
discharging one cell at a time.  The purpose of the testing is to match cells 
so as to build a large battery. Any tester I can buy to speed up the process?


I use my Battery Balancer for this . 
You can program it to test up to 80 cells or batteries sequentially. It 
can measure voltage and current, and control a charger and load bank. 
For example, have the program:


- charge each cell to a defined "full" voltage and current
- then load it with a defined load
- measure the time to a defined "empty" voltage
- record the amphours
- recharge the cell back to "full"
- step to the next cell or battery

I'm using one now to test a set of CALB cells. I only bothered to 
connect one relay board, so it tests a group of 8 cells. Then I offload 
the data, and re-connect it to the next batch of 8 cells.


The Balancer ins't really a commercial "turn-key" product: It's just 
something I built because I couldn't find anything affordable that did 
what I want. But I do have bare and assembled boards, and sell them on a 
one-off basis as needed.

--
"Verschlimmbessern" (German, verb) - To make something worse by
trying to improve it. (English translation: "Microsoft"?)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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