Re: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile (4 cents average)

2019-05-23 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
>>> Actually that 3 cent rate is a bait-and-switch.  They give you two
meters.
>>> And then if you take the 3 cent off-peak charging, then your house ON
>>> peak rate goes way up to 17 cents (from ten)...
>>
>>I agree that the "time of use" rate may not be a cost savings depending
>>upon your other loads.
>
>That's one of the rare cases where something like a Tesla Powerwall may
be cost effective.

Agree! Home battery storage can pay for itself in only 2 years IF AND ONLY
WHEN the PSC and utility will actually pay the homeowner the true cost of
the electricity when they draw it back.  (or in this case where one uses
ON-PEAK electricity in a high cost area but gets a deep discontut off
peak.

In my area, TOU was 10 cents daytime and 2 cents at night.  Great!
Then they deregulated and the rates becamse 12 cents peak and 10 cents
off-peak.  Not worth the trouble!

Maryland offers a 30% tax credit for Powerwalls and Home energy storage,
BUT THEN HAS NOTHING IN PLACE TO USE THEM!  Customers are being sucked
into to buying huge batteries just to have them sit there for the average
4 hour outage once a year (about $1 worth of lost electicity).

Cleary the progressive idea of home battery was there, but no
followthorught to change the billilng system to PAY homeowners premium for
the value of that on-peak electricity.

The local utility DOES pay $1.25 per kWh for every kWh you *do-not* use on
peak grid days, but that is only 5 days a year.  But it proves to every
Maryland resident that there is VALUE in having access to peak battery
power when the billing system catches up to it.

Bob, WB4aPR
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Re: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile (4 cents average)

2019-05-22 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Actually that 3 cent rate is a bait-and-switch.  They give you two meters.
And then if you take the 3 cent off-peak charging, then your house ON peak
rate goes way up to 17 cents (from ten)...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 12:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: j...@k6ccc.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile (4 cents
average)

Bob said (in part):
> For a pure EV. Yes, they pay 28 cents per kwh for that 13% of the
> time, but all the rest of the time they pay very reduced rates
overnight.  Our
> utility offers EV charging overnight at 3 cents per kWh.   That's almost
> TEN TIMES cheaper than when they charge on the road.

Consider yourself lucky that you get that low of an off-peak rate.  Ours
is either 12 or 13 cents depending on Summer or Winter for the overnight
TOU rate.



73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile (4 cents average)

2019-05-22 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
People rarely do the math.  Say they do a 660 mile trip 3 times a year and
they drive the normal American 15,000 miles a year, then the trip mileage
is only 13% of their total usage.  Miniscule.

For a pure EV. Yes, they pay 28 cents per kwh for that 13% of the time,
but all the rest of the time they pay very reduced rates overnight.  Our
utility offers EV charging overnight at 3 cents per kWh.   That's almost
TEN TIMES cheaper than when they charge on the road.

So 87% of 3 cents and 13% of 28 cents AVERAGES to 6 cents per kWh or about
2 cents a mile
Even if they pay 10 cents per kWh, then the annual average electricity
cost is 12.3 cents per kWh or about 4 cents a mile.

Who cares that they spend a little extra  on trips when the annual average
cost is so low.

And for my family, daughter has a Prius Prime who's daily use is under 30
miles and my Volt for my 35 mile days.  And at 87% electric, I'm still
only 13% the environmental concerns of a gas car.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2019 10:49 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile

You may be right, though you aren't taking into account the other factors,
most importantly the long term maintenance.

However, I think the bigger factor is the amount of time you need to spend
charging on a long road trip. If you only drive 200 or so miles a day, no
problem. You can charge at night. But if you are like most people and
drive 500+, you'll need at least two charging stops, which will add a few
hours to your travel. You might be able to combine that with meal stops or
point of interest stops, but I don't think the infrastructure is that
opportune yet.

In the future, when we have faster charging and competition on kWh
pricing, I hope we'll be on the other side of the inflection point.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
Sent: 22-May-19 7:06:20 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile

>Hi folks
>It seems that it's cheaper for taking long road trips to buy a Prius
Prime vs a pricier Tesla or Bolt with a 60kwh battery pack and pay an
average of 28c per kWh average on the road at level 3 fast charging
stations.  We have shorter range cheaper EVs (Spark bought 1 year old for
$14k and Leaf $9.2k). At $3 a gallon/50 = 6c per mile and at 28c per kWh /
4 (ac meas)= 7c per mile in a long range EV (also have to pay $40k for the
car with the 60kwh or so battery pack). Maybe it's better for the
environment to drive a long range EV but for your wallet the Prius Prime
and a shorter range EV for 90% miles local trips makes more sense.
>Have a renewable energy day,
>Mark
>Www.Reevadiy.org
>
>Sent from my iPhone
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[EVDL] Convert Creepy Disappearing Gas Stations2: - no business model

2019-05-06 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> There are many ice-gas stations that are closing.
> Wouldn't it be wise to bag one of these at each corner of town for public
> EVSE use?

The business model makes no sense.  EV charging is a PARKING issue.  A gas
station only has room to park maybe 20 cars.  Each one buying about $2 of
electricity. Over 2 hours.  Even at 50% markup for profit, it would be
impossible to make a business model for operating such a site with only $160
a day of income.

Not to mention all the customer PARKING complaints!

And operating a gas-n-go convenience store would be stupid since no one
could find a place to park.

To be viable, the "station" would probably need to charge the going rate or
about $20 per day for the parking of which $1 is for the electricity.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Availability of public chargers - NOT (and apartments)

2019-05-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
By the way, I had long used the argument that almost 70% of Americans live
in single family - detached homes and so if we got 70% of Americans to
drive EV's (and charge at home) we have solved 70% of the gasoline burning
problem.

That is the national census number.  BUT, it turns out, here in Maryland
and other higher density population states, more than 50% of people live in
apartments and have no access to overnight charging.

So that was an eye opener for me and I had to change my tune.  My tune now
is CHARGING AT WORK on 120v.  Just plug in every day, and pay the $30 per
month for the electricity.  That nicely meets the national average 40 miles
a day Americans drive.
 Then they can use public charging for trips only.

Charging is FIRST AND FOREMOST, a *PARKING* problem.

Bob, WB4APR

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:30 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> > I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas
> stations are now.
>
> Gas stations and EV charging are apples and oranges...
>
> Gas cars REQUIRE gas stations once a week for 5 minutes.  The 300 million
> cars are served by about 120,000 gas stations in the USA.  Usually there
> are cars at about half the pumps and about half the time (assume zero
> overnight).  If the average station has 8 pumps then that means 120,000
> times 2 pumps times 5 minutes per day or about 20,000 refueling hours per
> day.
>
> What about when we get to 300M EVs?  Lets assume 80% charge at home
> leaving 60M needing public charging.  Only about 5% need interstate high
> speed charging (30 minutes times 12M) or 6 million high-speed recharging
> hours a day.   Divided by 24 gives 250,000 high speed chargers needed.
>
> That leaves the 9 million needing 3 hours a day at L2 for 36 million L2
> charging hours a day.  Divided by 24 gives about 1,500,000 public L2
> chargers.
>
> As of last year, the count was 16,000.
>
> So I say as I have always said... "anyone who buys an EV with the idea of
> dependence on public charging will be VERY disappointed!
>
> You will always be WAITING in line to get access to the chargter in the
> long run.
>
> Hopefully, once apartments and condos solve the charging at home for
> tenants this problem will be reduced.
>
> Anyone else have better numbers?
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Damon Henry via EV
> Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 1:46 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Damon Henry 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE %
> (goog-pr)
>
> I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas stations
> are now.  There will always be a significant amount of people who charge
> primarily at home, so the demand will be less... Don't know if that is
> good or bad, but I know very few people have their own gas pumps.
>
> Damon
> 
> From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via
> EV 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 10:39 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: EVDL Administrator
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE %
> (goog-pr)
>
> On 1 May 2019 at 18:53, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>
> > Presumably you tried fr.chargemap.com, not chargemap.com
>
> Thanks for pointing that out!  Actually I was using chargemap.com, which
> starts off centered on Germany.
>
> At your suggestion I tried fr.chargemap.com, which saves lots of clicking
> and dragging because it's centered on France.  It locates exactly the same
> EVSEs, which I guess makes sense.
>
> > I also found this one:
> > www.bornes-recharge.net  I have no idea
> if it's better.
>
> www.bornes-recharge.net says "This map is
> provided by Chargemap."  So I assume it will be the same.
>
> I guess we're all looking forward to the time when public EVSEs are as
> numerous and accessable as filling stations are now, and you can expect to
> find at least one at nearly every highway junction.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
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Re: [EVDL] Availability of public chargers - NOT

2019-05-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Good counter arguments!  Thanks
Bob

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 12:50 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> >> I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas
> > stations are now.
> >
> > The 300 million cars are served by about 120,000 gas stations in the
> USA...
> > What about when we get to 300M EVs?  Lets assume 80% charge at home
> > leaving 60M needing public charging... 250,000 high speed chargers
> needed.
>
> Which is just two per gas station. Certainly possible.
>
> > That leaves the 9 million needing 3 hours a day at L2 for 36 million L2
> > charging hours a day.  Divided by 24 gives about 1,500,000 public L2
> > chargers.
>
> Roughly 12 times the number of gas stations. But L2 chargers can be put
> almost anywhere; any business can have one. So it is quite conceivable
> to have that many.
>
> > So I say as I have always said... "anyone who buys an EV with the idea of
> > dependence on public charging will be VERY disappointed!
>
> Right now, yes! To my mind, it is GOOD not to depend on public charging.
> Charge at home!
>
> But as an engineer, I see no technological challenges with a system
> where home charging is somehow prevented, so that paid public charging
> is the only option. The oil companies could convert their gas stations
> to "filling stations" with EV fast chargers. The power companies could
> get into the public charging business, and license smaller L2 chargers
> the same way banks set up ATMs in every mall and big-box store. There
> are easily 12 times more places where such EVSE's could be put than just
> at gas stations. Any public place you park your car could have one.
>
> Cities, states, stores, the oil companies, power companies, and whoever
> makes these EVSE's would all see it as a new source of profits. All of
> them would lobby for such a solution.
>
> They get complete control over the price and delivery. They can tax the
> bejesus out of the electricity, just like fuel taxes. They can limit or
> shut down the chargers in case of brownouts, or even "borrow" power from
> your EV battery packs when needed.
>
> THAT's my worry.
>
> --
> Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
> Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] Availability of public chargers - NOT

2019-05-03 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas
stations are now.

Gas stations and EV charging are apples and oranges...

Gas cars REQUIRE gas stations once a week for 5 minutes.  The 300 million
cars are served by about 120,000 gas stations in the USA.  Usually there
are cars at about half the pumps and about half the time (assume zero
overnight).  If the average station has 8 pumps then that means 120,000
times 2 pumps times 5 minutes per day or about 20,000 refueling hours per
day.

What about when we get to 300M EVs?  Lets assume 80% charge at home
leaving 60M needing public charging.  Only about 5% need interstate high
speed charging (30 minutes times 12M) or 6 million high-speed recharging
hours a day.   Divided by 24 gives 250,000 high speed chargers needed.

That leaves the 9 million needing 3 hours a day at L2 for 36 million L2
charging hours a day.  Divided by 24 gives about 1,500,000 public L2
chargers.

As of last year, the count was 16,000.

So I say as I have always said... "anyone who buys an EV with the idea of
dependence on public charging will be VERY disappointed!

You will always be WAITING in line to get access to the chargter in the
long run.

Hopefully, once apartments and condos solve the charging at home for
tenants this problem will be reduced.

Anyone else have better numbers?

Bob, WB4APR


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Damon Henry via EV
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 1:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Damon Henry 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE %
(goog-pr)

I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas stations
are now.  There will always be a significant amount of people who charge
primarily at home, so the demand will be less... Don't know if that is
good or bad, but I know very few people have their own gas pumps.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via
EV 
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 10:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE %
(goog-pr)

On 1 May 2019 at 18:53, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Presumably you tried fr.chargemap.com, not chargemap.com

Thanks for pointing that out!  Actually I was using chargemap.com, which
starts off centered on Germany.

At your suggestion I tried fr.chargemap.com, which saves lots of clicking
and dragging because it's centered on France.  It locates exactly the same
EVSEs, which I guess makes sense.

> I also found this one:
> www.bornes-recharge.net  I have no idea
if it's better.

www.bornes-recharge.net says "This map is
provided by Chargemap."  So I assume it will be the same.

I guess we're all looking forward to the time when public EVSEs are as
numerous and accessable as filling stations are now, and you can expect to
find at least one at nearly every highway junction.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] NMC cells ran below 2.5 vots n left

2019-03-19 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
The key thing to remember, due to this high impedance, is that any attempt
to charge them in series will end up with almost ALL the voltage across
the single cell with the highest internal resistance and then it gets all
the energy and ... Big problem!
Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi via EV
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 10:57 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Haudy Kazemi 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NMC cells ran below 2.5 vots n left

Here is an article has some info on restoring LiPo cells. Batteries tend
to exhibit increased internal resistance as voltages fall. The article
empasizes that restoration doesn't mean the cells will be like new. They
may have lost capacity and may have increased self discharge rates, but
may also be useable again.

Do the charging in a fire safe area.

In short, charge the cells very slowly (suggested 1/20 to 1/10 C rate) and
monitor them continuously for bloating or heat buildup, at least until
they get back into normal voltage ranges.

At normal voltages, a standard lithium charger should work, just keep the
C rates low while charge levels come back up.

Once charged, you'll be able to assess damage by doing capacity and
discharge rate checks. This data is useful for identifying acceptable
future charging C rates as cell characteristics may have changed from
their original values.

https://www.electricrcaircraftguy.com/2014/10/restoring-over-discharged-Li
Pos.html


On Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 02:28 ken via EV  wrote:

>  I bought a pack or lihium ion of cells and they arived pretty much
dead.
> like 0 or .25 each cell.
>
> I used 306b nicad setting to bring them up to  3.00,  then swtiched to
> lipo to charge to 3.70 .
>
> someone told me that charging theses cells could be dangerous, because
> the dendrits could lead dangerous overheating. theses battery i think
> where used for like a bus or something. theses are from
>
>
> https://www.techdirectclub.com/johnson-controls-24-cells-solar-battery
> -90-vdc-total-2-5-kwh/
>
> theses cells can do 10c so i'm rather concrned.  I wish I knew that
> manufacuter or specs or more about the cells property.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Rivian e-truck box system patents r:230-400mi DREAM

2019-03-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> The whole truck is a pipe dream.

I know, isn’t it exciting!
Tremendous torque for hauling and pulling.
Enough electrical power to power a work site for all day!
Ability to avoid the hassle of generators, and gas supply and oil and the
mess at the worksite.
Ability to charge at the work site too!

It’s a really exciting dream.  Electrifying the local work truck will make
the biggest change of any other vehicle for cleaning up towards a
sustainable future.

Bob, WB4APR


On 3/16/2019 7:16 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> 105KWh battery in the truck for 69,000 I don’t believe that story. Sounds
> like a pipe dream.
>
>> On Mar 15, 2019, at 11:04 PM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>> https://electrek.co/2019/03/12/rivian-modular-box-system-r1t-electric
>> -pickup-truck/ Rivian patents modular box system for its R1T electric
>> pickup truck Mar. 12th 2019  Fred Lambert
>>
>> Rivian, a Michigan-based startup that could become the first
>> automaker to bring an all-electric pickup truck to market, is
>> patenting an interesting modular box system for its R1T electric pickup
>> truck.
>>
>> The company is working to bring its vehicles to market by the end of
>> next year and in the meantime, we have been learning more about the
>> accessories that they are working on based on some patent
>> applications they have been filling.
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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

2019-02-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Thanks for your insight.  Yes, the breaker will be 20 amps so if anyone
tries to do anything other than a single L2 or two L1's they will loose
both as the breaker will trip.  I do assume that a 20A 2 pole breaker
actually will trip based on an overload on either of the two sides
independently of what is on the other.

Thanks!
Bob


On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 7:32 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

>
> > I install two 120v outlets on each post along with a single 240v outlet.
> > And then a small note says, "Either one L2 or two L1's but not both".
> > Each post has properly rated #10 conductors for the 16 amps on Line1 and
> > Line2 and Ground and a #12 for Neutral since the Neutral carries either
> > zero or only the 12 amps of a single L1.
> >
> >
> > Is this legal under the NEC?
>
> It depends entirely upon your breaker size. As long as you don't have a
> breaker larger than 20 amps on either phase you should be good to go.
>
> I'm worried about you sizing the neutral smaller than the hots, as
> somebody may see the 10 AWG hot line and put a 30 amp breaker on it, not
> realizing the neutral wire still needs to be limited to 20 amps.
>
> I'm also worried about the ability for somebody to overload one of your
> hots by plugging into both the L2 and an L1 at the same time.
>
> A polite sign isn't the same as an interlock. You must assume some bozo
> will plug into the L2 and both L1's at the same time.
>
> (I assume the two 120v L1 outlets are on opposite phases of a split
> phase 240 setup for the 240v outlet.)
>
> For example, if somebody sets up a space heater that draws 15 amps on
> one of the L1 outlets, and then somebody else starts to charge their car
> at 16 amps on the 240 outlet, the total number of amps on one of your
> hots would be 31 amps, which is more than should be going over a 10 AWG
> wire.  If you had a 20 amp breaker no problem.  If you are using a 30
> amp breaker, no problem for the 240 volt circuit, but somebody could
> successfully draw 25 amps over your 10 AWG neutral if they (for example)
> had a 30 amp 120v RV circuit going through a 15 amp plug adapter.
>
> So either the breaker must trip because it's a 20 amp, or all the wires
> including the neutral must be sized to accommodate the full possible
> load, 10AWG for a 30 amp breaker.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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[EVDL] EV familiarity

2019-02-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> Right now, a negligible number of people drive EVs.
> The public at large still considers them golf carts, or rich yuppie
toys.

But each of us can make a huge difference.

Back in 2011, I bought some professional EV charging Outlet signs and hung
them on the two light poles in the church parking lot that had 120v
outlets.  They were never if ever used over the next 6 years, but slowly
but surely people in the church started buying EV's because they could see
my car occasionally plulgged in and began to see the ubiquity of EV
charging wherever there is an outlet.

Now we have 20% of the active pople in the church driving EV's and most
can't wait for their gas car to die, so they too can get an EV.  And
FINALLY, in 2018, we got a lady with a Prius Plugin that had to plug in on
EVERY trip in order to get home on Electric.  So finally, over Christmas
holidays, I ran a cable to another pole where I installed our first L2.
Then a month later, I added another L2.  And now everyone wants to use
them.

So today I was going to add another L2 cord, but then realized the point
is already made.  We have 5five very visible EV charging signs in the
parking lot, and everyone knows we are in full support of EVs.  But we
decided not to install any more L2 cords, because they encourage too much
casual convenience charging that blocks those that actually need it.  So
we are going to leave the rest as just L1 and L2 socket outlets.  This
way, not everyone just immedialtey goes and uses the cord (whether they
really need it or not).

Now the lady that MUST have a charge on every visit can bring her own L2
cord and plug it into one of the other 240v outlets and quite reasonably
expect not to be blocked by someone else who does not need the charge is
going to go to the trouble of getting out their cord and using it.

So now we have capacity for five L2s (2 cords left in place) and a total
of ten L1 outlets.

It has really snowballed.  See photos:
http://aprs.org/EV-charging-signs.html

The new L2's are not shown yet, but the original two L1 outlet signs are
at the top.

I install two 120v outlets on each post along with a single 240v outlet.
And then a small note says, "Either one L2 or two L1's but not both".
Each post has properly rated #10 conductors for the 16 amps on Line1 and
Line2 and Ground and a #12 for Neutral since the Neutral carries either
zero or only the 12 amps of a single L1.


Is this legal under the NEC?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
But these investers in big fast public chargers are not getting what they
think they are getting.  They are counting on a hundred thousand charging
station opportunities, (that’s the number of gas stations).  But just like
nobody goes to Washington DC to buy gas at $5/gallon except when despite,
EV's always can charge at home or at work 95% of the time.  SO the market
for big charging stations will not be as big as for gas stations.

If I know I can always charge at home, I will not twiddle my thumbs at a 20
minute FILLUP convenience store, but will only putin 5 minutes of charge to
get home and fill up there.

You cannot do that with gas, though I am amazed at the number of people that
only put $5 worth of gas in their cars.  (and spend half their driving time
going back to the station!)

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 12:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Oil  buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil
buy-in

It's kind of disgusting but I think it's a good sign. Better to have them
come on board rather than fight. Further, even if the current startups in
the renewable energy business thrive and grow on their own, they probably
won't end up being altruistic when they become dominant players. Different
names on the doors, same mentality.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "SLPinfo.org via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "SLPinfo.org" 
Sent: 17-Feb-19 8:47:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Oil  buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil
buy-in

>This is not unlike the tobacco companies buying up food companies back
>in the 1980s.  They're planning ahead for diversifing their business model.
>
>Peter Flipsen
>Carlton, Oregon
>
>On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 11:25 PM brucedp5 via EV 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://qz.com/1542499/oil-companies-and-utilities-are-buying-up-all-
>> the-electric-car-charging-startups/
>>  Oil companies and utilities are buying up all the electric car
>> charging  startups  February 5, 2019  Michael J. Coren
>>
>>  For decades, oil and gas companies and utilities dismissed electric
>> cars.
>>  Now, the old petroleum and power giants are muscling into the
>> driver’s seat  of the “new fuels” industry.
>>
>>  It’s projected to be a big business. McKinsey counts more than 350
>> new  electric vehicle (EV) models debuting by 2025, one of the
>> conditions for  mass-market adoption. Global demand for gasoline is
>> set to peak around 2021  thanks to electric vehicles (EVs) and fuel
>> efficiency gains. The energy  research and consultancy Wood Mackenzie
>> predicts  charging infrastructure  investment in the US will exceed
>> $18 billion annually by 2030 for  equipment,  installation,
>> operations, and services. China is expected to have three  times more
>> energy demand from EVs by then.
>>
>>  Now, fossil fuel incumbents want in. They’re investing heavily or
>> outright  acquiring electrical infrastructure needed to supply the
>> millions of  electric vehicles (EVs) expected in the next few years.
>> Although just 2.2%  of the world’s vehicles are electric, a record 2
>> million or so EVs were  sold  last year amid exponential growth.
>>
>>  While the numbers aren’t huge yet—for example, Shell’s $1 billion in
>> renewable energy and EV investments amounts amounts to just 4% of its
>> annual  capital expenditures—they’re growing fast. Globally, $334
>> billion was  invested in global clean energy in 2017, reports BNEF
>> (pdf)
>>
>>  Public charging infrastructure is ramping up almost everywhere, and
>> each  region has its own unique mix of players, says Bloomberg New
>> Energy Finance  (BNEF). In Europe, 79% of the public charging
>> infrastructure is operated by  utilities and oil companies. In the
>> US, 62% of the market is managed by  pure-play EV operators. In
>> China, equipment manufacturers control the  majority.
>>
>>  So far, European firms are making the biggest moves. The most recent
>> move  was Royal Dutch Shell’s purchase of Greenlots, a startup
>> offering software  and services for EV charging networks. The
>> British-Dutch oil giant says it  will use Greenlot’s technology,
>> which combines software to optimize battery  charging and grid
>> balancing services in one charging platform, to build the
>> “foundation” of its EV business in North America. The company is
>> pouring  about $1 billion a year into such deals, according to BNEF,
>> including the  acquisition of 30,000 charging stations in Western Europe,
>> as well as a $31  million investment into EV charging startup Ample in
>> 2018.
>>
>>  Last year, France’s Total closed a deal for G2mobility, which offers
>> EV  charging solutions, as well as a $1.7 billion deal for Direct
>> Energie,  making it a major electricity retailer in France as well.
>> Ultimately,  Reuters reports, Total wants to grow its “low-carbon
>> energy assets” from 5%  of the total today to 20% by 2035. Most of
>> Europe’s 

Re: [EVDL] Patty's Motor Car (1911 EV)

2019-01-29 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I read it on the train.  Here is my one page book report on Patty’s Motor
Car (1911):

http://aprs.org/Energy/EV/Patty-b.docx





*From:* Robert Bruninga 
*Sent:* Saturday, January 26, 2019 1:43 PM
*Subject:* Patty's Motor Car (1911 EV)



My wife and daughter have always talked about their favorite teen book
series (17 novels), about Patty.

She just casually mentioned the 9th book "Patty's Motor Car" written in
1911 is actually an electric car.  She brought down her copy for me and 

… Maybe I will start reading it...

Bob, Wb4APR
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[EVDL] Patty's Motor Car (1911 EV)

2019-01-26 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
My wife and daughter have always talked about their favorite teen book
series (17 novels), about Patty.

She just casually mentioned the 9th book "Patty's Motor Car" written in
1911 is actually an electric car.  She brought down her copy for me and 

Then I realized it might be easier to google the story than read through
all the teen angst... but my google skills are poor and I never found a
good cliff-notes summary especially written with emphasis on digging out
the nuances of owning an EV in 1911.

I wonder if anyone else has dug deep enough?

Maybe I will start reading it...

Bob, Wb4APR
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Re: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted posts)

2019-01-25 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I like the separate posts.  Easier to get to link directly.

I find the single summary post to be surperfluous and requires more steps..

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 4:17 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes 
Subject: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted posts)

Bruce,
My only complaint is the double postings of almost all the ev wire articles
as single posts.  Waste of bandwidth in my opinion.  Not sure of a solution.
It does waste a little time sorting through them. Not as bad as attaching a
whole digest. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Using EV to demo emergency power

2019-01-21 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Not everyone is an idiot.

I am responsible for the building and grounds.

After a full career in the Navy fully versed in tag-out procedures, I
tagged out the breaker and there is zero personnel risk to anyone.  I
assumed all risk to my inverter which I was willing to lose if the demo
went awry.

Bob

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 4:59 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> You're going to dismiss what I have to say, which is your prerogative.  I
> just want othe people here to know that what you did was not a good idea.
> It was actually pretty dangerous.  There are other adjectives I could use
> for it, but I'm more polite than that.
>
> > extension cord coming out of my trunk and
> > conspicuously run through the front door and plugged into the first
> outlet.
>
> They don't call those "suicide cords" for nothing.
>
> > I had visited the day before, and moved that outlet's wire at the circuit
> > breaker over onto the same circuit as the meeting room's lights.
>
> Do you own the building?  If not, did you have permission from the
> building's owner?
>
> If I owned that place and let your group use it, and found out that you'd
> been poking around in the panel,  I'd be pretty annoyed.
>
> More than that, actually.  Your group would never use my building again.
> You'd also pay for the licensed electrician I'd hire to fix your tinkering.
>
> > All I had to do on meeting night was flip that breaker off (and tag it
> > out) and then backfeed the outlet.
>
> Better hope that the janitor (or whomever) doesn't see that breaker and
> fail
> to understand your tag.  You'd get a nasty bang and lose your inverter, or
> worse.
>
> Backfeeding receptacles for backup power is a dangerous thing to do.
>
> Don't do it.
>
> Just don't.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] 18650 cell level fuse wire

2019-01-20 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
What is a 10ths wire?  If it was #10 AWG, then that is way,way to big.

Bob

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 3:52 PM ken via EV  wrote:

>  I cells are 2600 mah average reclamed / tested .  lion  . what or which
> size wire should I use.  I tryed a 10 ths 3 inch wire shorted across the
> cell and it turned red 5 seconds but did not blow. I'd call my load low
> as I'm working runing a ryboi blower  with  my 5s x 5p pack . I've not
> measured the laod for the blower yet .
>
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Re: [EVDL] Using EV to demo emergency power (capacity)

2019-01-18 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> That's a really cool demonstration.

What we don't know is the DC/DC converter specs in all the cars.  It has
been determined for the Prius to be about 850 Watts that you can draw from
the 12v battery long term without dropping the battery voltage below a
reasonable charge state.  Of course, you can draw 2 kW for peaks but the
excess is coming from the battery.  We know the HV fuse is 120 amps in the
Prius which equates to 1500W max but current from the DC/DC I think is
limited to 85 amps?

I should have looked at my battery state in the Volt at the end of the 2
hour load...

I will happily compile the determined values from other EV's if people
care to submit.

The test consists of running a load on the 12v battery long enough to find
the steady state where the power coming out equals what the DC/DC
converter is providing from the HV battery while leaving the battery say
at "half charge".

Im sure someone on here will nail down what that 50% lead acid steady
state voltage is such that half the capacity remains in the 12v battery?
Is 12.6v a good number?

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 11:11 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using EV to demo emergency power

That's a really cool demonstration. Especially showing the you dinged your
range by such a relatively small amount. That should help increase the
awareness for people who rent portable generators for festivals and other
off grid locations. Just bring your EV instead :) Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 18-Jan-19 7:28:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Using EV to demo emergency power

>Using your EV to demo Emergency Power.
>
>I powered last night's Climate Stewards Annapolis Monthly Meeting from
>my EV.
>
>I rigged my VOLT right out front on the sidewalk with yellow lights
>blinking, and then an extension cord coming out of my trunk and
>conspicuously run through the front door and plugged into the first
outlet.
>
>I had visited the day before, and moved that outlet's wire at the
>circuit breaker over onto the same circuit as the meeting room's
>lights.  This way the lights and that outlet were on the same circuit.
>So All I had to do on meeting night was flip that breaker off (and tag
>it out) and then backfeed the outlet.
>
>Then without detracting from the other speakers and the agenda for the
>meeting, I was able to include the following summary in my 30 second
>intro:
>
>"Although our building is solar powered and we now have ten EV charging
>outlets in the parking lot, a few people ask about emergency power when
>the grid goes down.  So tonight I am demonstrating the powering of this
>building from the Volt parked outside.  Total cost is about a $200
>common inverter hooked to the Volt's battery.  At the average American
>1kW load, the EV should be able to power the house for about an hour
>and only use up about 5 miles range.  And for long term outages, I can
>just plug the Volt into the solar panels "secure power" outlet and
>charge it during the day and so on indefinitely while the grid is down".
>
>Turns out, I used up about 15 miles of range in 2.5 hours.  Because I
>overlooked the typical system overhead of the Volt which should have
>been about 1 mile per hour.
>
>But I did discover the no-driver-timeout to be about 2 hours.  Right at
>the end of the meeting, as people were rising to leave, the lights went
>out. The volt had just turned itself off.  A quick run to the car to
>push the power button again was all that was needed.
>
>Anyway, the main meeting rooms fluorescent load was on the order of 1
>kW, just at the limit of my 1 kW inverter.  But when we replace them
>all with LED's that will be down to about 500W and then I can combine
>that with the lobby LED light circuit and have all those most important
>lights on one circuit and one outlet for future emergency operation.
>
>I have been to Home Depot now 6 times and bought three different types
>of tube bulbs, but stil have not found ANY that will work. With or
>without ballast.  Though I was only buying their cheapest.  Next, Ill
>go get the box of NO BALLAST bulbs and that should work.
>
>Oh, the room has 3 different light circuits, so there was always backup.
>I was powering the main cove lighting.  Then there are accent lights
>around the walls and dome lights way u p in the ceiling. We left the
>accent lights on the grid so that I wouldn't leave them completely in
>the dark if my system failed.  And we leave them on anyway even during
>movies...  So,  I got to score additional visibility each time the
&

[EVDL] Climate Drawdown - Yes, worth attending

2019-01-18 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Subject: Climate Drawdown - Yes, worth attending

I went to a 2 hour presentation on DRAWDOWN which is the term for an
international movement to draw down our CO2 levels.

It was very refreshing because it filled in the gaps in my knowledge beyond
EV's, Solar and Heatpumps (The TOP 3 things I am focused on).

It turns out that we DO drawdown CO2 levels significantly every year.  In
the summer, CO2 levels are actually pulled back down faster than they go up.
But then in the winter our over production of CO2 then goes up higher than
before.  But the point is that when we reduce our CO2 additions only about
half, then we can actually drawdown CO2 levels naturally.

The whole thing about Drawdown is that they reviewed all the science data
and made a list of the ONE HUNDRED things we can do to reduce CO2.

The surprise to me was that Solar was only #10 and EV's were #26 and
Heatpumps were #42.  At first I felt threatened but then I was able to point
out that almost EVERYTHING above these were things that were global and
required total lifestyle change and most were beyond what an individual can
do.

SO still, Solar, EV and Heatpumps are still the three biggest step-function
changes that an individual can make (in my opinion) but the other 100 do
help me understand everything else that helps.

The top 10 represent almost 60% of the total emissions problem/solutions!
1) Improper disposal of refrigerants
2) On Shore Wind
3) Food waste
4) Eating Meat
5) Decimating Forests
6) Educating Girls
7) Family planning
8) Utility Solar
9) Mixed pastures
10) Home Solar
26) EVs
37) Mass transit
40) Trucks
66) High Speed Rail
69) E-bikes
77) Battery Storage
99+) Increase wood buildings (to sequester the carbon)

I had stopped going to most climate meetings because talk is cheap and it
distracts from the things that we must do as individuals.  I was so tired of
just hearing more of the same ol'e talk by climate organizations while
actually doing nothing as individuals.   All this talk had seemed to be
about getting OTHER PEOPLE to change.  And that is not going to do it.  The
Problem is US and we need to make the changes ourselves individually.

But this 2 hour  presentation was very invigorating.  Its not GAME OVER, but
GAME ON!

https://connect.pachamama.org/resources/drawdown-initiative/introduction

Bob, WB4APR
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[EVDL] Using EV to demo emergency power

2019-01-18 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Using your EV to demo Emergency Power.

I powered last night's Climate Stewards Annapolis Monthly Meeting from my
EV.

I rigged my VOLT right out front on the sidewalk with yellow lights
blinking, and then an extension cord coming out of my trunk and
conspicuously run through the front door and plugged into the first outlet.

I had visited the day before, and moved that outlet's wire at the circuit
breaker over onto the same circuit as the meeting room's lights.  This way
the lights and that outlet were on the same circuit.  So All I had to do on
meeting night was flip that breaker off (and tag it out) and then backfeed
the outlet.

Then without detracting from the other speakers and the agenda for the
meeting, I was able to include the following summary in my 30 second
intro:

"Although our building is solar powered and we now have ten EV charging
outlets in the parking lot, a few people ask about emergency power when the
grid goes down.  So tonight I am demonstrating the powering of this building
from the Volt parked outside.  Total cost is about a $200 common inverter
hooked to the Volt's battery.  At the average American 1kW load, the EV
should be able to power the house for about an hour and only use up about 5
miles range.  And for long term outages, I can just plug the Volt into the
solar panels "secure power" outlet and charge it during the day and so on
indefinitely while the grid is down".

Turns out, I used up about 15 miles of range in 2.5 hours.  Because I
overlooked the typical system overhead of the Volt which should have been
about 1 mile per hour.

But I did discover the no-driver-timeout to be about 2 hours.  Right at the
end of the meeting, as people were rising to leave, the lights went out. The
volt had just turned itself off.  A quick run to the car to push the power
button again was all that was needed.

Anyway, the main meeting rooms fluorescent load was on the order of 1 kW,
just at the limit of my 1 kW inverter.  But when we replace them all with
LED's that will be down to about 500W and then I can combine that with the
lobby LED light circuit and have all those most important lights on one
circuit and one outlet for future emergency operation.

I have been to Home Depot now 6 times and bought three different types of
tube bulbs, but stil have not found ANY that will work. With or without
ballast.  Though I was only buying their cheapest.  Next, Ill go get the box
of NO BALLAST bulbs and that should work.

Oh, the room has 3 different light circuits, so there was always backup.
I was powering the main cove lighting.  Then there are accent lights around
the walls and dome lights way u p in the ceiling. We left the accent lights
on the grid so that I wouldn't leave them completely in the dark if my
system failed.  And we leave them on anyway even during movies...  So,  I
got to score additional visibility each time the speaker went from talking,
to her three different movie clips by jumping up each time and going to the
light switch to turn off the lights and comment "just saving some more
miles"...  The audience really got into it...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Watt-if: Remote L3 recharging service (Can this be provided?)

2019-01-16 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
My main problem with this is WHERE will the mobile charging vehicle
sit/park while it is charging the EV.  There is no room for such anywhere
that I park.  AND the mobile can only charge maybe one or two cars before
it has to go back and be charged at its source.  Totally impractical for a
total $5 transaction.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 3:28 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watt-if: Remote L3 recharging service (Can this be
provided?)

On 15 Jan 2019 at 22:26, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

> How damn lazy can you get?

Well, maybe not so much lazy as ... well, let's just say that there are
people whose time is really valuable, some who think it is, and some who
would like other people to think it is.  :-\

It's off topic, but I'd say this service has a good chance of success.
With the top 1% of US population now controlling about 40% of the nation's
assets, it's probably a good business strategy to aim your service at
folks who are rich (and those who like to act like they are).

It reminds me a little of the college students who used to make beer money
back in the mid-1970s during the OPEC oil embargo.  They'd sit in
Important Businessmen's cars to hold their places in the round-the-block
lines waiting for their 5 or 10 gallon rations at the few open filling
stations.

Meanwhile, the Important Businessmen took cabs back to their offices to
get more Important Work done.

Regardless of whether it's a great idea or not, I'm not quite sure I see
how this "car concierge" service suggests an EV charging service.

This service is "solving" a pretty minor problem.  IMO it's just not that
much effort to drive your ICEV to a filling station and spend 5 minutes or
so filling it up.  I'll admit that it can be a bit unpleasant in foul
weather though, so maybe it's a go in some regions.

But even that little bit of effort doesn't apply to EVs.  Hop out of the
car, plug in the EVSE in your dry, warmer-than-outside garage, and that's
it.  Who's going to pay a service for something that trivial?  Heck, if
you're that filthy rich, you probably already have a chauffeur to drive
your car, and gas it up or plug it in for you.

I may have missed something, so Bruce correct me if I'm off base, but what
he seems to be mostly talking about is emergency road service.  If you're
stuck out in the sticks, it hardly matters whether it's because you're out
of gas or the traction battery is flat.  You want a can of fuel or a
charge, and as Bruce points out, that service has been around for a while
- for ICEVs, for a LONG while.  Do we need more and/or different mobile
charging services?  I have no idea.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] ICE-ing an EV charger (feedback)

2019-01-03 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
What's the thread size for a typical tire Shreader valve?

Just carry a handful of these screws and screw them in slightly to these
pickup tires and let them deal with the slow leak later

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] fusewires for 18650 cells

2019-01-02 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Best thing would be to just test them and be sure.
But don't test with a 3" piece of the wire from end of battery to the
other end, because that is not the same as testing a 3/4" piece.  You will
need a 3" piece of heavy wire and then just the 3/4" of the "fuse" wire to
get a valid test.

But trivial to do the test.


Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of ken via EV
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 4:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: ken 
Subject: [EVDL] fusewires for 18650 cells

 Thou my cells are rather close in capity, I'm still thinkng of using fuse
wire as in the telsa pack .  If i used the phone cable 2 pair cable that
runs around houses and used 3/4 inch form cell to bus bar  would my 10 amp
cells be protected ?

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Re: [EVDL] Prius forum question: Prius pack rebuilding

2018-12-22 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
The guy confuses self-discharge with loss-of-capacity.  Since a hybrid
battery is always used within SECONDS of its last charge, self dischrage is
absolutelyu not an issue in a hybrid.

bob

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 3:28 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> I didn't spend much time looking since this is [off t] and
>  should really be asked on a Prius forum, i found
>
> https://priuschat.com/threads/prius-gen-3-hv-battery-replacement-nimh-or.186748/
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-21 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I don’t see anything in the statement that said HOW they were going to
decarbonize the generation of hydrogen.  The only method I know is the
inefficient use of electricity to hydrolyze hydrogen from water.  Yes, that
can work in places where surplus electricity is abundant… but is still
quite inefficient and the energy returned is still double the cost of
electricity (at about  4 cents per kWh wholesale).



Plus another 25% to compress it for use in “tanks” for cars.



Not even mentioning the total lack of any kind of distribution system…
compared to the outlet in everyone’s garage and parking lot.  IMHO the only
thing that might eventually be useful is from huge truck-depot to
truck-depot for long haul where only a single hydrogen station is needed.



Bob



*From:* Mark Abramowitz 
*Sent:* Thursday, December 20, 2018 11:46 PM
*To:* Robert Bruninga 
*Cc:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner”
(GHG emissions) than the grid



Hey, it’s more than that in the statement, if you read carefully.



But you obviously have an FUD agenda, so the statement wasn’t really meant
for you. I won’t respond to you again.

- Mark



Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On Dec 20, 2018, at 8:28 PM, Robert Bruninga  wrote:

But just setting a goal to produce "carbon free hydrogen" is still just
snake oil, hog wash that can never compete with EVs.

bob
:

> On Dec 20, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:
>
> Some of you know that I’ve been an advocate for BEVs for a number of
decades, and of hydrogen fuel cell EVs (the “other” electric vehicle) for a
bit less.
>
> In my day job, I recommend and advocate major funding of both battery
electrics and hydrogen fuel cell applications.
>
> One of my many volunteer roles (“working for free” as Bruce would put it)
is serving as Immediate Past Chair of the California Hydrogen Business
Council.
>
> As some of you may know, the renewable content of hydrogen used in
transportation exceeds that of the grid. And the industry itself is on a
path of 100% carbon-free hydrogen .
>
> Not long ago, the Hydrogen Council, made up of the CEOs of leaders in the
industry, released a formal policy supporting 100% carbon-free in
transportation hydrogen by 2030. This is 15 years before the 100%
carbon-free grid date of 2045 adopted by the California legislature.
>
> Tomorrow a release will go out announcing the support of this policy by
the California Hydrogen Business Council.
>
> The adopted language follows.  For those of you who have completely
misstated the facts, though intentionally, I hope that you will read it
carefully.
>
> December 18, 2018
>
> CHBC Endorses Full Decarbonization Goal of Hydrogen in Transportation by
2030
>
> The California Hydrogen Business Council (CHBC) on behalf of its members
is pleased to endorse the commitment of the Hydrogen Council to the goal of
decarbonizing 100% of hydrogen fuel used in transport by 2030.
>
> The goal was announced by the Hydrogen Council on September 14, 2018 at
the Global Climate Action Summit in San Francisco, hosted by Governor Brown:
>
> “The Hydrogen Council, a global CEO coalition bringing together 50+
leaders in the energy, transport and industry space, is committed to an
ambitious goal of ensuring that 100% of hydrogen fuel used in different
modes of transportation is decarbonised by 2030. We are therefore calling
on governments to build a global alliance that will create the necessary
regulatory frameworks to help make this commitment a reality. Transport may
be our first target, but with right level of support we will see positive
effects across many sectors. We believe hydrogen can play a key role in the
clean energy transition and we are ready to work together with governments
to help create the right technical, financial and legislative environment
that will enable decarbonised hydrogen to scale up.”
>
> Through this commitment to the 2030 goal, hydrogen for transportation can
achieve full decarbonization 15 years ahead of the SB 100 mandate of 100%
carbon-free electricity by 2045.  Attainment of the stated goal of 100%
carbon-free hydrogen fuel by 2030 will maintain the position of hydrogen
fuel cell electric drive as the lowest-carbon alternative among electric
drive solutions.
> The hydrogen industry is committed to helping California dramatically
reduce emissions despite increasing transportation demand by providing a
clean fuel that has proven itself in both on- and off-road applications and
is emerging as an important alternative to diesel in marine, rail and port
applications.
>
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-20 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
But just setting a goal to produce "carbon free hydrogen" is still just
snake oil, hog wash that can never compete with EVs.

bob
:

> > On Dec 20, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Mark Abramowitz 
> wrote:
> >
> > Some of you know that I’ve been an advocate for BEVs for a number of
> decades, and of hydrogen fuel cell EVs (the “other” electric vehicle) for a
> bit less.
> >
> > In my day job, I recommend and advocate major funding of both battery
> electrics and hydrogen fuel cell applications.
> >
> > One of my many volunteer roles (“working for free” as Bruce would put
> it) is serving as Immediate Past Chair of the California Hydrogen Business
> Council.
> >
> > As some of you may know, the renewable content of hydrogen used in
> transportation exceeds that of the grid. And the industry itself is on a
> path of 100% carbon-free hydrogen .
> >
> > Not long ago, the Hydrogen Council, made up of the CEOs of leaders in
> the industry, released a formal policy supporting 100% carbon-free in
> transportation hydrogen by 2030. This is 15 years before the 100%
> carbon-free grid date of 2045 adopted by the California legislature.
> >
> > Tomorrow a release will go out announcing the support of this policy by
> the California Hydrogen Business Council.
> >
> > The adopted language follows.  For those of you who have completely
> misstated the facts, though intentionally, I hope that you will read it
> carefully.
> >
> > December 18, 2018
> >
> > CHBC Endorses Full Decarbonization Goal of Hydrogen in Transportation by
> 2030
> >
> > The California Hydrogen Business Council (CHBC) on behalf of its members
> is pleased to endorse the commitment of the Hydrogen Council to the goal of
> decarbonizing 100% of hydrogen fuel used in transport by 2030.
> >
> > The goal was announced by the Hydrogen Council on September 14, 2018 at
> the Global Climate Action Summit in San Francisco, hosted by Governor Brown:
> >
> > “The Hydrogen Council, a global CEO coalition bringing together 50+
> leaders in the energy, transport and industry space, is committed to an
> ambitious goal of ensuring that 100% of hydrogen fuel used in different
> modes of transportation is decarbonised by 2030. We are therefore calling
> on governments to build a global alliance that will create the necessary
> regulatory frameworks to help make this commitment a reality. Transport may
> be our first target, but with right level of support we will see positive
> effects across many sectors. We believe hydrogen can play a key role in the
> clean energy transition and we are ready to work together with governments
> to help create the right technical, financial and legislative environment
> that will enable decarbonised hydrogen to scale up.”
> >
> > Through this commitment to the 2030 goal, hydrogen for transportation
> can achieve full decarbonization 15 years ahead of the SB 100 mandate of
> 100% carbon-free electricity by 2045.  Attainment of the stated goal of
> 100% carbon-free hydrogen fuel by 2030 will maintain the position of
> hydrogen fuel cell electric drive as the lowest-carbon alternative among
> electric drive solutions.
> > The hydrogen industry is committed to helping California dramatically
> reduce emissions despite increasing transportation demand by providing a
> clean fuel that has proven itself in both on- and off-road applications and
> is emerging as an important alternative to diesel in marine, rail and port
> applications.
> >
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us for EVs

2018-12-13 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
At my last count, I came up with 250 EV models are promised over then next
7 years by 2025.
That is a big number.  And last time I counted al lmodels, I think I only
came up with about 450 total car models on sale in the USA.  So it is over
half...

Bob, WB4APR

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peter Eckhoff via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 3:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peter Eckhoff 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us
for EVs

I don't get it either.  According to Exxon-Mobil, we have until around
2040, maybe a bit longer, until the world wide liquid supply of crude oil
peaks.  All Toyota has to do is to view the worldwide sales of EVs on
InsideEVs Sales charts to realize there is a market for EVs.  Not sure
what their rationale is for their comment.  Prime sales are similar to
Volt sales in volume and GM just said they are cancelling Volt production
but keeping the Bolt.

Tesla is going great guns and are looking to produce an electric pickup
truck.  A number of electric pickups are in pre-production such as from
Bollinger and Rivian.

Almost all of the auto manufacturers are saying they are switching to
producing nothing but electrics during the next two decades. There is
always the good chance that EV sales continue to climb and the price of
gasoline drops to $0.50 a gallon.  Then Toyota ICE sales might pick up and
they cancel production of the Prius and their other hybrids???



On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 2:02 PM EVDL Administrator via EV

wrote:

> [Shrug] Their loss.
>
> In 1973, when the Mideast oil cartel shut the petroleum spigot down to
> a trickle, owners of 13mpg US-made land yachts were putting their
> names on waiting lists to buy 30mpg small cars.
>
> But it wasn't GM and Ford dealers that were collecting their
> "additional dealer markup," hundreds of dollars over sticker price.
> They didn't have small, fuel-efficient cars that anybody wanted to
> buy.  Chevy Vegas?  Ford Pintos?  No thanks.
>
> It was Japanese automakers' dealers who won that round.  Toyota
> Corollas, Datsun B210s, and Honda Civics got prepped with such
> high-profit extras as
> $250 radios, $70 floor mats, and $90 mud flaps, and then they flew out
> the shop doors.  They never even saw the lot.
>
> Next time gasoline gets scarce, depending on how sensible GM is, it
> might be GM dealers poaching EV customers from Toyota.  That would be
> ironic.
>
> However, I think it's more likely that the next beneficiary of a US
> (or
> worldwide) fuel crunch will be BYD, Geely, and other Chinese automakers.
> I
> expect that they'll be the ones unloading cargo ships full of EVs on
> these shores.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid

2018-12-11 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Everything starts as a niche.  What counts is growth.  And EV's are growing
at a much higher rate than any other vehicle type.  Geeze, a giant whale
begins as something too small for the eye to see.

Those who overlook the growth of EV's will be eating the dust...

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 9:19 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: paul dove 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid

There were 6 million vehicles sold in the US in 2017. 50,000 model 3's is a
niche.


On Monday, December 10, 2018, 11:48:03 AM CST, Willie via EV
 wrote:



On 12/10/18 11:17 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> A niche of a niche, because even today EVs themselves are still a
> niche item, and IMO will only become a true mass market product with
> continued

Perhaps you are not familiar with recent Model 3 sales figures?  By my
definition of "niche", EVs, especially Tesla, have moved well beyond.
Will demand disappear as income tax credits disappear?  Possible, but I
think not.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid

2018-12-10 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> I can only say that my attempts of education here have failed.

Because its irrelevant to selling EV's to the masses which is what we must
do to protect our air.

> Every time I talk to my friends at Tesla about solar vehicles they shut up
> like clams.

Because it is a stupid idea and they are being nice to not just roll their
eyes...

> Higher ups at Tesla are solar team alums [and] know what it takes...

And they also understand it is totally unmarketable to the American public.

> I hope ... everyone will realize that solar vehicles are indeed possible
> technically.

Of course they are, but totally lacking in a business model to sell enough
to change the word which MUST  happen.

And Yes, I BUILT one.  I added 220 watts on my solar prius, but I tell
people that it was fun but less than 0.001 economically practical!  I have
100 times more solar area on my roof at home AND the large format solar
panels coast one TENTH those on the prius for a net economic stupidity of
1000 to 1.

All this fluff over making solar cars is just distracting people from the
need to buy EVs NOW.  We are ten years since EV's were good enough, and now
they are better, faster, cleaner, cheaper to buy, cheaper to operate and
cheaper to maintain.

ALL WE NEED is an educated public and less fluff and chasing at windmills to
distract them.

Lets put our effort into educating the public about the 45 EVs we have now
and the 250 planned over the next 7 years and stop distracting them with
fluff...

Bob
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[EVDL] EV emission limits

2018-11-28 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Looks like EVs and hybrids get an exemption from RF emission limist of the
FCC’s part-15 limits.



Looks like one could bulid a 1 MHz transmitter right in the middle of the
AM broadcast band and run it at 50,000 watts from an EV battery and not
violate part-15 limits!  (exemption #1 and #8 and #10!)



Bob, WB4APR



*From:*  Ev Tupis via aprssig
*Subject:* Re: [aprssig] OT: Part 15 / Electric Vehicles



Electric Vehicles and Hybrids are exempt from Part 15 compliance.  I'm
trying to understand the basis for the RFI issues at-play.  See the list of
top ten part-15 exemptions:



https://emcfastpass.com/could-your-product-be-exempt-from-emc-testing-altogether/
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[EVDL] EV sounds

2018-11-23 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
What I'd really like to see is an EV sound box that sounds like some of the
extrordinary sounds collected in this Video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0iMNfKfQAc
It is a collection of gigantic electrical shorts and malfunctions and the
sound of the arcing buz of 60 Hz is awsome.

But it wouild need to be an HD fully dynamic range recording.

Have that sneak up on you from behind as the reired low speed EV emission...

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

2018-11-09 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Should work fine on a local AM station, but have you stepped through all
the 100 channels to hear what it is like on weaker signals?
Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Tom Keenan via EV
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 4:54 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Tom Keenan 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go
digital)

I have a 2013 Leaf, and the AM radio works fine. Same with my old 2005
Prius.  I use the AM radio on a daily basis during my commute to work.
Not sure if it is perhaps an issue with certain radio suppliers/car
manufacturers?

Tom Keenan

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions anyone
know?
>
> If radiated, it will cause problems not only for your own car; but will
also wipe out AM in the car next to it!
>
> Our Prius has an AM radio, though it has a "tin ear" -- poor weak signal
reception. This has been a problem for me on long trips. FM stations fade
in and out as you drive, but especially at night, you can listen to the
same AM station for your entire drive.
>
> --
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Yet another fast food chain mocking electric cars

2018-11-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I just sent Jackinthebox corporate my opinion of their out-of-touch ad.
bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2018 9:52 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Yet another fast food chain mocking electric cars

Don't forget about subliminal.  This one is blatant.  You after analysis
realize it but it reenforces a lie. Million's just chuckle, agree and will
not consider an electric.  Maybe don't even know why but if you ask they
might say small, slow & unattractive.  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

  On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 5:32 AM, Mark Abramowitz
wrote:   No, I didn’t notice that. I guess others missed that, too.
So, you were right.
The silver lining is that most will not even notice it - at least the first
few times that they see it.

- Mark
Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
On Nov 4, 2018, at 11:22 PM, Lawrence Rhodes 
wrote:


I guess you didn't see the two very large EVSE on the side of the road. The
association is that electric is slow and weak.  Lawrence Rhodes

  From: Mark Abramowitz 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; Electric Vehicle
Discussion List 
 Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 6:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Yet another fast food chain mocking electric cars

I didn’t see those vehicles as being electric. Maybe they were, but you
couldn't tell. They just looked like wimpy little boxes.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2018, at 1:03 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> wrote:
>
> This time it is Jacka$$ in the box portraying electric vehicles as
> slow.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvRT151OWGw Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

2018-11-01 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
And where on this earth might they be located?

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 5:14 PM, ROBERT via EV  wrote:

> I have approximately 1100 NiCad cells.  I purchased them about 10 years
> ago as military surplus.  They were used in helicopters.  The
> specifications are: Saft Model No. KO 14KH-B-1. 11 Amp-Hrs. Size: 2.25" W X
> 5.25" H, and 1" D.  If anyone needs these batteries and are willing to pay
> shipping, you can have them.  If not, I am shipping them to the recyclers
> next week.  In addition, I have the battery links.  Specifications: 1.5" L
> X 0.5 " W.  Ctr - Ctr hole spacing: 1" Holes dia: 3/16".  The links are Ni
> plate Cu.  If anyone needs these links, I will sell them for the price of
> cooper.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (DONE)

2018-10-31 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
It inevitable.  Solar panels on anything that sits in the sun is cost
effective if the power can be used.

Kia adding it to cars:  https://pulsenews.co.kr/view.php?year=2018=680816

Even if it only charges the 12v battery, it is still 200 Watts incoming.
Even though the 12v battery is always maintained from the HV battery, they
can manage the 12v battery charging just like they do with hybrids.  That
is, only charge from the HV battery to always leave enough room at the top
for a full days free charge from the sun.

And don’t forget my stupid neighbor's son who spends about 3 to 10 hours a
day sitting in his ICE car with the engine running in the driveway so he can
sit there with his friends playing with their smartphones "charging" from
the car.

And these will always be 18% efficieny silicon.  The higher 36% GaAs cells
cost 2000 times more for only double the power and will never come down.

Bob. WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Easy to hard solar charging. (trailer drag)

2018-10-30 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
My original example of 4'x4' was a solar trailer that was basically a
flatbed about a foot thick.  It unfolds when parked to give 8' of solar
panels.  But still the drop in gas mileage was very noticible on the
Prius.  Bob

-Original Message-
That likely comes from a difference in the trailers.  Although this is not
EV related, let me cite two examples.  Growing up, my parents had a small
RV trailer and also a ski boat.  The boat on its trailer weighed about 40%
more than the RV trailer.  Towing the RV trailer had a MASSIVE impact on
the gas mileage, whereas towing the boat was hardly noticed.  What was the
difference?  The RV was essentially towing a billboard into the wind,
whereas the boat was fairly aerodynamic.

On 10/30/18 7:31 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> Towing a simple 4'x4' garden trailer behind my priius drops MPG from
> 55 to 40.  A huge drop.

-Original Message-
Very oddly, towing a small trailer with an imiev seems to have very little
effect.  The imiev range is 60-65 miles.  When I towed 20+20 miles, I was
worried about having sufficient range.  But, I got home with about 15
miles remaining.  So, the towing cost only about 10%. One way was empty,
the other with about 300 pounds of stuff.  Trailer is a Harbor Freight
type flatbed, about 200 pounds with very low profile.  In that test, the
load was also very low, lumber stacked less than 1' high.

Towing a ~1000 pound teardrop with a Tesla costs 20-30%.
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Re: [EVDL] Easy to hard solar charging.

2018-10-30 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Towing a simple 4'x4' garden trailer behind my priius drops MPG from 55 to
40.  A huge drop.
And solar might do well in summer, but with only 27 degree sun angles at
noon in the winter. your power is only 45%

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 5:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> As many of you know I am a fan of solar vehicles..My current project is a
> Steintrike Explorer as the donor vehicle.  4,000 watt Cyclone drivetrain.
> At least 400 watts of panels. 4 kw(8 Leaf modules) I think the easiest way
> would to directly size the panel voltage to the charging rate of the
> battery. I have little experience with lithium. Is bms tied to a charger?
> Is it passive? Active? Does it also work during discharge? I am thinking I
> could charge my battery in 10 hours or less depending on state of charge
> and have a cruising speed of maybe 25 mph under good conditions barely
> using the battery.  The battery would be a buffer for the panels. Some sort
> of system would be needed to prevent overcharging.  Ideas?.. Lawrence
> Rhodes wondering if I could tow a large solar panel as a range extender.
> Seen it done with small vehicles. However one to power a Leaf might be a
> disaster in crosswinds.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-26 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I donno.  My family of four before the kids left had 5.  Not a one cost more
than $5k.  Salvage Priuses for daily use, plus a gramma's hand-me-down  Geo
Metro and an old Ford van for occasional towing and hauling.  And a few
un-registered old EV projects out back.  The entire fleet cost much less
than a single average new American car.

We drove a vehicle appropriate for the trip.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

Most people I know don’t have multiple cars for multiple purposes, unless
they are wealthy.

Most do have a “one car fits all”.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 6:58 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
>> Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big
>> problem is need for a variety of uses.
>>
>> What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something
>> that works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out
>> to dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the
>> day, and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella
>> might be able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people.
>> The latter two? I doubt it.
>
> You're right; people tend to want a "universal" solution; one vehicle to
> do everything.
>
> But that's not really practical. It forces compromises so the vehicle is
> not really good at anything. You see luxury pickup trucks that can't
> really haul anything, or huge SUVs being used for single-person commuting.
>
> So most people have more than one car. Each vehicle can be more closely
> optimzed to the job it spends most of its time doing.
>
> One hopes that EVs will often be these second vehicles. If it's for
> commuting, it doesn't need long range, or high seating capacity, or towing
> capabilities. The owner will have another vehicle for that.
>
> --
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather

2018-10-22 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I know that Lithium batteries perform worse at lower temps.  But what does
that mean?

Charging, or using? which is worse.

For example, in the winter,  is it better to charge in the evening when I
come home and battery is warmer or to put it into charge-by-7AM mode and
have it charge the battry when much colder, but the result is a warmer
battery when I start to use it at 7 AM?

So does cold prevent the battery from accepting a given capacity, or does
cold prevent one from using a given capacity that is already in the battery?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Slapping solar panels on an RV

2018-10-22 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
When putting solar on an RV which in some cases is only used about 1% of the
year, it is a good idea to include an inexpensive grid-tie inverter so all
the rest of the time the RV is just rotting away in the driveway, it is also
contributing that solar investment into your house grid.

Just don’t overproduce or you will pay for it.  If you already have grid-tie
solar on the roof, then these $99 GT inverters can take solar from any other
panels in your yard doing nothing most of the time.

Bob, Wb4APR

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Bobby Keeland via EV
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 12:32 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Bobby Keeland 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
(charging while parked)

I installed four 158 watt solar panels (DM Solar), a charge controller (
Morningstar) and an inverter/charger (Magnum) in the RV some time ago. RV
manufacturers do not leave much space for the coach battery and then they
use a dual purpose battery that is a poor starting battery and a worse deep
cycle battery. I replaced the original coach battery with two huge 255 aHr
Lifeline deep cycle batteries that I put in one of the "basement"
compartments. I believe that there are ways that you can set up an EV to
grid system that would work with a Tesla. The alternative is to just unplug
from the Tesla and run a cable from the trailer mounted solar panels to our
charge controller. Who needs an RV Park?
   I've thought about restoring my 1951 Chevy pickup with an electric motor,
lots of Li-Ion batteries and solar panels on a rack that is over the bed and
the cab. The solar panels will not power the pickup by themselves, but while
parked or when driving down the road the batteries will be charging. An old
pickup is not a great conversation vehicle, but it is a great looking
vehicle. No longer burning gasoline would be great.
BobK


On Oct 22, 2018 11:03 AM, "Peter C. Thompson via EV" 
wrote:

This actually makes sense - especially if you have lots of batteries in the
RV as well. I think it would also be possible to use the EV as the Large
Battery for your RV, but Tesla may not allow such a modification.

Cheers, Peter

On 10/22/18 6:47 AM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:
> My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
> don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.
>
> When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing
> the
EV
> on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
> docking would be no problem.
> BobK
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV
> 
> wrote:
>
>> ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on
>> EV's
are
>> not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16
>> hour solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the
>> car is in use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
>> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: Alan Arrison 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on
>> cars
>>
>> The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have,
never
>> will.
>>
>> This has been proven time and time again.
>>
>> There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but
>> perfect conditions and slow speeds.
>>
>> And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.
>>
>> It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
>>> When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
>>> results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
>>> the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the
>>> solar car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4
>>> passenger Stella Lux include these:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Length
>>>
>>> 178 inches
>>>
>>> Width
>>>
>>> 69 inches
>>>
>>> Height
>>>
>>> 44 inches
>>>
>>> Weight
>>>
>>> 826 pounds
>>>
>>> Battery Capacity
>>>
>>> 15 kWh
>>>
>>> Motor Efficiency
>>>
>>> 97 percent
>>>
>>> Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
>>>
>>> 621 miles
>>>
>>> Range on sunny day (Australia)
>>>
>>> 683 miles
>>>
>>> Range at night (on battery)
>>&

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars (charging while parked)

2018-10-22 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's are
not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 hour
solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is in
use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Alan Arrison 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, never
will.

This has been proven time and time again.

There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but perfect
conditions and slow speeds.

And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.

It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.

Al



On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
> results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
> the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar
> car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 passenger
> Stella Lux include these:
>
>
>
> Length
>
> 178 inches
>
> Width
>
> 69 inches
>
> Height
>
> 44 inches
>
> Weight
>
> 826 pounds
>
> Battery Capacity
>
> 15 kWh
>
> Motor Efficiency
>
> 97 percent
>
> Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
>
> 621 miles
>
> Range on sunny day (Australia)
>
> 683 miles
>
> Range at night (on battery)
>
> 403 miles
>
> Top Speed
>
> 77 mph
>
>
>
> So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, that
> translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
> conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
> solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
> conditions is
> 0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
> potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
> hours.
> So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
> miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated solar
> energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
> months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel about
> 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
> passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
>> The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 2018
>> Michael J. Coren
>>
>> [image
>> https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p
>> ng
>> The Sono Motors Car
>> ]
>>
>> The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
>> everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels
>> (once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the star we
>> call the Sun.
>>
>> So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?
>>
>> It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface
>> relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes
>> that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans,
>> even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do they
>> have in common?
>> They’re
>> all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar
>> panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.
>>
>> For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy
>> equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar
>> panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The German
>> startup Sono Motors is adding 330 integrated solar cells on the roof,
>> sides, and rear to give its vehicle a 30-km boost out of a 250-km
>> (155-mile) battery range. Meanwhile, Dutch startup behind
>> LightyearOne claims its electric car will “charge itself.” Although
>> it has yet to unveil a vehicle, potential customers can put down
>> deposits for a €119.000 ($157,000) car promising to travel 10,000 to
>> 20,000 km per year (6,200 to 12,400 miles) on its solar panels alone.
>>
>> The Sono Motors Car
>>
>> Will it work? Don’t bet on it, says Jeremy Michalek, a professor of
>> mechanical engineering at Carnegie Mellon University and director of
>> its Vehicle Electrification Group.
>>
>> Quartz asked Michalek to estimate how far the best solar panels could
>> propel a typical electric car on the market. He broke down the math
>> for us.
>>
>> Michalek says about 1 kilowatt (kW) of solar energy falls on a square
>> meter of the Earth’s surface on a clear day. That’s all the solar
>> energy available to collect. For a company like Sono, which says it
>> can convert about a quarter of that energy into electricity (although
>> that’s very optimistic), a full site of panels might generate roughly
>> 8 kilowatt hours of energy per day (a best-case scenario with four

Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free Supercharging!]

2018-10-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
>Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S
>that doesn't get to use Superchargers for free.

Nothing is "free".  It is paid for within the luxury prices on the model S
and X.

One cannot have it both ways.  If one only wants to pay the absolute
minimum, then one doesn't pay for the charging.  If you want the "free"
charging, you have to pay for it somehow.

Bob
.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [SHORTS]

2018-10-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
What is frustrating to me is all the Tesla short seller naysayers.  These
greedy do-nothings put out 90% of the anti-tesla propaganda because it is
in their own personal self interest to see Tesla fail.  They have bet
their money to see Tesla fail and so everything they say is anti-tesla and
the more they can sell negativism to others, the greater their profit.

It is sad to see all that fake news picked up here on an EV list.

With over one fourth of all tesla investors actively investing in Tesla to
fail by shorting the stock, that is a lot of self-serving negativity.
Ignore it.  The short sellers are just trying to take a greedy profit and
could care less about EV's...

Those who understand them and the huge effort it takes to drastically
change the American driving experience will understand and will invest in
Tesla for the long haul.

I'm certainly in it for the long haul, having owned an EV since 1983(city
car)..  So what if they are a year late.  Its been 35 years to get here.

Bob

-- Original Message --
>No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
>But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like
>me) could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.
>
>And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose
>their lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life

>hands you.
>
>That's not the point. If you can't afford the more expensive car, it
>doesn't matter how good it is.  You're buying the cheaper one.
>
>I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a
>great car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.
>
>But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.
>They promised an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant
>something more or less comparable to a mid-range Toyota.
>But that's not what Tesla delivered.
>Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to
>use Superchargers for free.
>
>Some of us are not impressed.
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Re: [EVDL] Pacifica Plugins everywhere! (EVDL)

2018-10-16 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
My bicycle is even better than either one of them.  But that’s not the
point.  Some people are looking for an SUV.  The Pacifica is a very popular
SUV.  So why not get the plugin version and drive on 100% electric for the
soccer mom?  And when  you go on a trip, burn gas like everyone else.  But
at least 95% of all your mileage is electric.



Bob



*From:* robert winfield 
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 16, 2018 3:47 PM
*To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Electric
Vehicle Discussion List 
*Cc:* Robert Bruninga 
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Pacifica Plugins everywhere! (EVDL)



The Pacifica barely gets 33 miles on a tiny 16kW pack, even my 2017 Prius
plugin, a forced but, gets 30 miles on 8.8kW.

A compliance vehicle at best they cannot sell w/o discounts

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
<https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers_wl=ym_sub1=Internal_sub2=Global_YGrowth_sub3=EmailSignature>



On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:55 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV

 wrote:

Might be true elsewhere too...



A colleague bought a pluging Pacifica and said the dealers are full of them.

He found 100 for sale in the greater DC metro area.



He got his $5k below MSRP plus the $9k of federal and state tax credits was

pretty amazing!



Apparently the dealers are willing to move them at a discount?



Bob

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[EVDL] Pacifica Plugins everywhere! (EVDL)

2018-10-16 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Might be true elsewhere too...

A colleague bought a pluging Pacifica and said the dealers are full of them.
He found 100 for sale in the greater DC metro area.

He got his $5k below MSRP plus the $9k of federal and state tax credits was
pretty amazing!

Apparently the dealers are willing to move them at a discount?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu - Success!

2018-10-16 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Time didn't stop today. This is the first year of Model S.  And NO
manufacturer expects to recoup 100% of their production costs in just one
year of a new model line.  Geeze...  bob

The did exactly what they said.  They *introduced* the affordable EV for
the rest of us.  Sales will follow.  In fact, for September, the Model 3
is the #1 selling car in America...

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via
EV
On 16 Oct 2018 at 6:35, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

> A car manufacturer doesn't make a profit till the production line is
> paid for.

Of course, but Tesla's declared intent from the start was to make enough
money on the luxury models (X and S) that they could afford to introduce a
more affordable "Tesla for the rest of us."

Apparently you disagree, but un my view, they failed.

Maybe they didn't make enough money on the pricey Teslas.  Maybe they blew
too much on other stuff.  Maybe they tried to introduce the 3 too soon
(and that could be because GM scooped them with the Bolt).  I don't know
the reason, just that the "affordable" Tesla isn't, at least not now.

I find it interesting to compare Tesla's approach to Honda's -- granted
that the latter is a much larger company.  When they launched the Accord
in 1976, Honda priced it aggressively, to build demand.  They probably
took a loss.
The price rose in later years as it gained sales.

Similarly, Toyota took a loss on the early Prius.  I think that was also
the case with the Nissan Leaf.  That's just what automakers have to do
when they want a new and different vehicle to succeed. That and lots of
advertising.

I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not
sure they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially
true in the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain
their reputation.  Time will tell.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

2018-10-15 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Yes, I assume the order-by-15-Oct deadline is to get a guaranteed tesla
delivery before 31 Dec.

But I bet as the end of year approaches a lot of people will be looking
over avaiable inventory and snapping them up.

At first I was thinking Tesla would offer some incentives, but then I
realize it does not matter much to them if people meet the deadline or not,
because the difference in rebate is on the customer, not them.



bob



On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 9:19 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:



On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high priced
cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a Subaru Ascent
is $46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay about the same.


Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I just
checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  to order
is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax will likely
be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be assured of delivery
in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax credit though the $54,200
will be due before delivery time.  Final amount: $46,700.  Close enough to
your quote.  OTOH, that does not include AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be
bought without AutoPilot, IMHO.

There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being available
as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The inventory cars
are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may not get below
$46,000.
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Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr> unfair, punitive - FAIR -but EQUAL!

2018-10-15 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
It IS fair to add a road tax to EVs who have been getting a free ride on the
roads...
While protecting the environment...

*BUT ONLY IF* they also add an environmental tax on ICEs who have been
getting a free ride on the environment!

See:  http://aprs.org/EV-and-gas-taxes.html


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 2:12 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5 
Subject: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr> unfair, punitive, nil-revenue, EVs=
easy-target



[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVtax-150yr-75yr-for-pih-hevs-in-MS-v-tp4691385.html
]

http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=69145
An unfair tax?: Drivers take issue with hybrid/electric car fees; lawmakers
claim they are reasonable in face of road, bridge crisis October 13, 2018
Slim Smith

[image]  Julie Carpenter of Columbus stands with the Toyota hybrid she has
owned for two years. She learned last month she must pay an additional $75
annual fee to the state for owning the car to help fund an Emergency Road
and Bridge measure the Legislature passed in the August special session.
Owners of fully electric vehicles will pay $150 each year. Photo by: Chris
Jenkins/Special to The Dispatch

When Mike Buehler received a notice from the Mississippi Department of
Revenue a week ago that he would be required to pay a fee for driving his
2014 Tesla each year, he bit his lip and did a little research before
forming an opinion.

The verdict?
"It's unfair," the Starkville radiologist said.

That opinion is likely shared by many of the 15,281 people who received
similar notices last week informing them of the new fees assessed to drivers
of electric and hybrid cars. For hybrids that use both fuel and electric
power, the fee is $75 annually. For electric cars that use no fuel, it's
$150.

Owners of hybrid or electric cars will pay the fees at their county tax
collector's office each year when they renew their license plate tag.

Unlike tag renewal fees, which go to fund city and county governments and
local schools, all of the fees from the hybrid/electric car tax will go to
the state's Emergency Road and Bridge Fund, which the Legislature
established during a special session in August. The fees were included with
that legislation.

The measure earned near unanimous support, passing 110-4 in the House and
48-3 in the Senate. Every member of the Golden Triangle's legislative
delegation favored the bill.

"I did receive some emails and text messages expressing dissatisfaction with
the fees, but given the dire needs of our roads and bridges, the fees seem
reasonable to me," said state Sen. Angela Turner Ford (D-West Point).

Hybrid/electric car fees will make up a minute portion of the Emergency Road
and Bridge Fund, which lawmakers hope will produce an extra $110 million for
the state's roads and bridges each year. The bulk of that will come from
bonded debt and revenue from a state lottery -- both of which also passed
during the special session.

The new fund will supplement road and bridge money the state already
receives from an 18-percent fuel tax drivers in the state pay at the pump.
The hybrid/electric fees served as an alternative to increasing the fuel
tax.

"I'll be honest, some of these hybrids get such good gas mileage that
something was needed for them to pay their fair share," said state Sen.
Chuck Younger (R-Columbus). "My preference all along was to raise the fuel
tax, so really, as far as this part of it went, I could take it or leave it.
I think it's fair. Overall, we had to get something done and I don't think
anybody was going to let the (hybrid/electric fee) get in the way of that."

'It's definitely punitive'

Although the legislation was passed in August, many of those affected by the
fees weren't aware until they received their notice from the Department of
Revenue in September.

Columbus Realtor Julie Carpenter was among that group.

"I had no idea," said Carpenter, who has been driving her Toyota hybrid for
two years. "I was shocked that I was going to be taxed for trying to be
environmentally friendly. I hope they don't find out I'm buying broccoli and
cauliflower and spinach. I might get taxed for trying to eat healthy, too."

Buehler said while he understands the stated purpose of the fee -- to ensure
that hybrid and electric car drivers pay their share for maintaining roads
and bridges -- he feels it is too high for those who drive electric cars.

"I understand that electric car drivers don't pay the fuel tax that other
people pay," Buehler said. "So I wanted to do the numbers and see what they
told me."

Buehler estimated that his 2014 Tesla, if converted to gasoline, would
average 50 miles per gallon. Based on his driving habits, he said he drives
12,000 miles per year, which would be 240 gallons per year. The state's 18.2
percent fuel tax would mean he would pay $43.68 in fuel taxes.

"But instead of that, I'll be paying $150 a year," Buehler said. 

Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

2018-10-14 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
No, Blue book reports the average price is $35,200:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/average-new-car-prices-jump-2-percent-for-march-2018-on-suv-sales-strength-according-to-kelley-blue-book-300623110.html

And that tracks well with it being $34,000 in 2015, etc
and $33k in 2013, etc

bob


On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 9:27 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> According to this website, the average total price paid for a new car is
> $31500.
> https://www.concannonbc.com/how-much-does-a-typical-american
> -actually-pay-for-a-car/
>
> That average includes luxury models so I suspect the median price is
> somewhat lower. Either way, I would consider 46K substantially higher,
> meaning high priced for the average buyer of a new car.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Willie via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Willie" 
> Sent: 14-Oct-18 6:19:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu
>
>
>>
>> On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>
>>> I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high
>>> priced cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a Subaru
>>> Ascent is $46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay about the same.
>>>
>>
>> Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I just
>> checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  to order
>> is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax will likely
>> be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be assured of delivery
>> in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax credit though the $54,200
>> will be due before delivery time.  Final amount: $46,700.  Close enough to
>> your quote.  OTOH, that does not include AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be
>> bought without AutoPilot, IMHO.
>>
>> There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being
>> available as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The
>> inventory cars are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may not
>> get below $46,000.
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>>
>>
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[EVDL] Almost 80% of all EV's now with ranges greater than 200 miles

2018-10-14 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Not sure if I sent this to EVDL or not...

-- Forwarded message --
There are 45 battery and plugin hybrids now on the market in 2018.
Compared to the daily American travel of 40 miles,
78% have total ranges over 200 miles
50% have total ranges over 350 miles
20% have total ranges over 500 miles

Further, 50% cost LESS with incentives than the average $36k gas car!

RNG EV Plugin EV/Hybrid model
-   -
666  29  Kia Optima Plug-In
650  27  Hyundai Sonata PHEV
640  25  Toyota Prius Prime
630  29  Hyundai Ioniq PHEV
610  21  Ford Fusion Energi
580  33  Chrysler Pacifica hyb.
580  26  Kia Niro PHEV
560  24  Porsche Panamera
540  13  BMW X5 xDrive40e
480  14  Porsche Cayenne
460  20  Ford C-Max Energi
4608  Mercedes GLE550e
450  12  Mercedes S550e
450  18  Volvo XC60 T8
440  30  Cadillac CT6 Plug-In
4108  Mercedes C350e
410  21  Volvo S90 T8
380  53  Chevy Volt
380  16  Audi A3 e-tron
372  16  BMW 530e
350  22  BMW 330e
350  19  Volvo XC90 T8
340  47  Honda Clarity PHEV
340  14  BMW 740e xDrive
335  EV Tesla 100D
330  14  BMW i8
310  EV Tesla 3 extended range
310  22  Mitsubishi Outlander
295  EV Tesla X 100D
259  EV Tesla S 75D
270  12  MINI Cooper S E Countr
240  37  Karma Revero
238  EV Tesla X 75D
238  EV Chevy Bolt
220  EV Tesla 3 std
180  97  BMW i3 Range Extender
151  EV  Nissan Leaf
125  EV  VW e-golf
124  EV  Hyundai Ioniq Electric
115  EV  Ford Focus Electric
114  EV  BMW i3
111  EV  Kia Soul Electric
  89  EV  Honda Clarity Electric
  84  EV  Fiat 500e
  58  EV  Smart

RNG column is the total combined range and EV Column is the EV only range.
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Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf key: $300! Yikes

2018-10-13 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
your lucky.  Its $1200 for a prius fob if you have no key left.
Otherwise it is $250 for the key plus $50 programming I think.


On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Couldn't I just get any Nissan fob? Is anyone in the Bay area capable of
> programing fobs for less than hundred bucks? My son lost our key. Lawrence
> Rhodes
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[EVDL] Optimum EV cruise speed musings?

2018-10-09 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I saw that the optimum range EV speed for the Volt is about 37 MPH.
This comes from the fact that there are constant battery loads (200 Watts)
Gearing which sets the optimum efficiency of the motor at a given speed.
Then increasing drag proportional to speed (road friction).
And then the increasing air drag (cubed) due to air speed.

Lets say they all combine to give that 37 MPH optimum max range speed for
the Volt.

Now the question.  When one is going up a mild hill (gaining altitude) or
generally almost coasting going down the mild hill, then the optimum point
must clearly have moved a bit.  Which way?

If 37 MPH on the level gives max range, should I increase a bit or
decrease speed a bit going up a hill?  Here is my thinking...

1) The potential energy gained/lost is linear with altitude and not
affected by speed, so that is a wash.
2) The fixed losses remain constant
3) Then Air and road drag are proportional to speed.
4) But motor "load" is proportional to the altitude changes.

So the best I can come up with is that any change in optimum speed going
up or down a hill is mostly related to the small constant fixed losses.  A
good analogy in a gas car is that you are driving with a pinhole in the
tank.  You are losing gas no matter what you do, so the faster you go, the
less gas simply lost through the pinhole when you arrive at destination.*

So when coasting down a  hill and the motor is using way below optimum
energy, then I think it makes sense to add a few MPH to bring the speed
losses up to again re-balance against the fixed losses.

Conversly, when going  up a hill, and the motor losses due to altitude are
greater, then it makes some sense to slow down a tad to again, rebalance
the added load of altitude against the fixed losses.

I'd love to see the equations and solve for the magic MPH compensations
for hillls.  Of course it is dependent on the slope.

Could it be as simple as watching the AMPS gauge and when going up a hill
reduce speed until the amps get back down to cruise amps, and going down a
hill increase speed to make the amps equal the cruise amps.  I DON'T THINK
SO.  The slower speed going up hill would be too slow and down hill you'd
kill yourself.

Ah Ha!  I think the answer is not comparing to Cruise AMPS, but only the
portion of the cruise amps that are due to speed, and not all the other
components of those amps.   Hummh...

One other factoid.  The energy per mile is generally assumed to be about
250 Whrs per mile.  And if the car is just sitting there and not moving,
then that is the same as driving at 1 MPH.  A trivial difference.  BUT,
the typical 250 Whrs per mile quoted is really an overall value at normal
driving speeds.  SO it is surely greater at lower speeds.  Maybe all I
need to do is just sit in a flat parking lot, release the brakes and just
see how fast the car arrives at while sill only consuming the fixed 0.5
kW...

Hummh anyone done this?

Bob, Wb4APR

* the asterix is from a fighter pilot who remembers looking out the window
on takeoff after getting a repaired gas tank.  His copilot said "we are
losing fuel!!! By the gallons!".  Pilot rammed the stick to afterburners
for MAX power to get back and land ASAP.  This is counter intuitive.  Many
would go into limp mode to conserve fuel to get back to landing.  WRONG.
TO quote the pilot "I was losing hundreds of pounds of fuel per minute and
I wanted to make sure what fuel I had left was all going through  the
engine and not out the open hole."... RIGHT decision.
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

2018-10-08 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Wow, huge misunderstanding of "reliability"..

There is a huge difference between the poor reliability of large numbers of
single-point failures compared to the HUGE redundancy in the Tesla battery
with dozens of parallel redundancy at each step of the battery.  I'd take
the Tesla design any  day as being far more reliable...

Bob


 On Monday, October 8, 2018 3:45 PM, Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

 Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're
the only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an
onroad vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the
complexity of monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports
gave it high marks for handling etc, they gave it a low score for
reliability.  Currently they send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a
battery field repair as this cost is built into the price of a pricey car.
I don't know how this business model will work on lower prices $30k
versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't mention the thousands of itty
bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does it that way for reliability
reasons (even with each one fused) Have a renewable energy day Mark in
Roanoke Va Www.Reevadiy.org.

Sent from my iPhone
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[EVDL] Big Batteries in 1957

2018-10-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
This is the 101'st anniversary of Sputnick.  It was a pair of 3 tube
transmitters.   Hams are talking about it, but this comment on batteries
caught my eye.  Just a passing thought about batteries...

The power supply of the onboard radio equipment of the first satellite was
completely autonomous - from silver-zinc batteries. The filament battery
consisted of five elements SCD-70 with a capacity of 140 Ah and provided a
voltage of 7.5 V. The anode battery consisted of 86 cells SPD-18 with a
capacity of 30 Ah and provided a voltage of 130 V to supply anode
batteries. transmitter chains. It had taps for powering the screen (90 V)
and pentode grids of the output stages (10 V), as well as the manipulator
(20 V). The mass of these batteries was about 50 kg, i.e. it was a
significant part of the mass of the entire satellite. The batteries were
supposed to provide uninterrupted transmitters for 14 days.
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[EVDL] FW: 12v Inverter in Trunk of Volt

2018-10-01 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Subject: 12v Inverter in Trunk of Volt

I found that a 1 kW or larger 12v inverter to 60 Hz 120v easily fits in the
left rear corner pocket in the Volt.
Just cut the existing panel cover hole larger in the plastic and then
fashion a new cover.

See photo:  http://aprs.org/Energy/Energy-images/Volt-inverter-bothX.jpg

I didn't bother with a cover immediately, since the black base of the
Inverter matches the black plastic trim.
But eventually, I will add a hinge at the bottom so it can look more
professional and hinge out for use.

This is a 2013 Volt and a Xantrex Pro 1 kW inverter.  The tight points are
in the lower right and upper left.  That is why it is tilted a bit.
Turns out, if I had cut another half inch or so on the left, then it would
tilt lower and be horizontal and also clear the tie-down in the upper left
too.

It also has to tilt out for access to the rear fuse panel behind the
inverter.

And there is no metal interference all the way to the edge of the lower left
tie point.  The upper tie point is just plastic.

If I was to do it over again, and since one has to fashion a new cover plate
anway, I would cut the hole another 1.5" wider than shown and several inches
higher if you are willing to give up the plastic tie point.
There is lots of room in there, why waste it.  I have sketched where I would
cut here:
http://aprs.org/Energy/Energy-images/Volt-inverter-cut-line.jpg

When stowed in the left photo, a single screw in the base plate into the
plastic in the upper left holds it in place.
Bob
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[EVDL] EVs at Kunta-Kinte Annapolis - EV - cell phone charger!

2018-09-29 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I was showing off my Volt and some solar power at the Kunta Kinte festival
in Annapolis and had as many interested folks as I evr got at an EV event.

ANYWAY, what REALLY draws people is having an inverter hooked to the 12v
battery and then lots of lightbulbs...

AND A POWER STRIP FOR CELL PHONE CHARGING...!

Wow, next time I will set out a table just for cell phone charging,..
Eveyrone wanted to use it.  Really brought people to me.
As word spread, more and more people came.

A great chance to sell SOLAR POWER (I had a solar panel providing 250W and
lighting 30 LED bulbs all around my car).
That was all on solar power..  But I could have just used my 1 kW inverter
in the car and then I could have charged all the cell phone plus kept 150
LED bulbs running just from the car even without the solar panel or on a
cloudy day.

See my display:
http://aprs.org/Energy/Marches/KuntaKinte2018/KuntaKinta1240x.jpg

But next time, I won't bother with the big 250W solar panel (can power over
40 bulbs) and just use a smaller panel which is easier to move around and
then run everything on the EV battery 12v inverter.

A real crowd drawer.  And LED bulbs are under $1 each at Home depot in their
8 pack for $7.95 And the plastic lamp sockets are only $1.50.  My display
boards have 30 bulbs pluls another 7 on a fiddle board.

Wow, this was fun.
Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: A comparative efficiency study of ... now Redundancy!

2018-09-07 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> I've always had it beat into my pointy engineering head
>  to minimize component count. Which is also why
>  id never own a Tesla with 6800 or so cells in their battery.

That philosophy fails to recognize the value gained in multiple
redundancy.
The Tesla battery of 6800 cells is far more reliable since it has 74 cells
in PARALLEL for each 3.6volt lithium unit.  Compared to a Leaf with only 2
cells in parallel at each stage in the stack.

IN the Tesla the impact on any single battery failure is then only 3% of
the impact of a cell problem on a car with larger format cells.

I'd take the multiple redundancy of the Tesla any day.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $44k Bolt weekend> FORCED PUBLIC CHARGING!

2018-09-07 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
This author forced an artificial negative public charging issue just to make
a negative point, when in fact he never needed to charge at all.

He drove almost 200 miles (5 days of Average American driving) and NEVER
PLUGGED IT IN!
He then returned it with 50 miles of range (good for another average day)
and NEVER PLUGGED IT IN.

He should have left it at that.  When he returned it, the company that
loaned it to him would NOT have gone to a public charger but would have
simply plugged it in overnight for the next customer!  That is what EV's do
when bought for the right purpose.

But no, he wanted to prove the point of how long it take to do a public
charge having missed the 10 second per day opportunity do to it right.  Plug
in overnight!

EVs are not for everyone.  But they are excellent for 67% of us that have a
place to plugin.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2018 12:03 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5 
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: $44k Bolt weekend> should've used plugshare.com, not
chargepoint

https://www.businessinsider.com/chevy-bolt-review-best-features-and-charging-challenges-2018-8

I drove a $44,000 Chevy Bolt for a weekend and saw just how far electric
cars have come — but I also discovered a glaring problem Aug. 28, 2018  Mark
Matousek

[images  / Mark Matousek
https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801fff8905f282258b511a-960-720.jpg
The 2018 Chevrolet Bolt EV Premier

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801f8be361c01b008b535c-960-720.jpg
I drove a 2018 Chevy Bolt Premier outfitted with a little over $2,000 worth
of extra options

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801fb08ea82fa1278b5028-960-720.jpg
The version I drove cost $43,905. The base price for the Bolt's standard
trim is $37,495

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801fcd1982d8882b8b4be7-960-720.jpg
Unlike GM's first fully electric vehicle, the EV-1, the Bolt has an exterior
resembling that of a gas-powered car

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801fff8905f282258b511a-960-720.jpg
I had driven the Bolt for a few hours on an autocross track in June, but
this was my first time driving the Bolt — or any EV — for an extended period
in real-world conditions

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801ff01982d820008b558b-960-720.jpg
Regenerative braking had several surprising advantages

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801fa05c5e523a1e8b4928-960-720.jpg
The Bolt doesn't have blazing speed, but it has more than enough for highway
driving

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b80203164dce836008b54d4-960-720.jpg
Electric motors are much quieter than gas-powered engines — a characteristic
that made a small but noticeable difference

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b801fdd5c5e52fe368b5026-960-720.jpg
The Bolt Premier has machine-painted wheels.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b80213d80eb3519008b565f-960-720.jpg
The interior offers a raised seating position that provided excellent
visibility

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b802173b354cd37008b5844-960-720.jpg
The Bolt's driver-assistance features weren't flashy, but they were subtle
and effective

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b8021ea959f341f2e8b5317-960-720.jpg
Here's what the rear camera looks like

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b80219364dce81e008b54ed-960-720.jpg
I find digital instrument panels to be much more precise and intuitive than
analog ones

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b8021a9e199f3592e8b48ef-960-720.jpg
Here's a look under the hood

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b80214e0ce5f511178b5209-960-720.jpg
The gearshift was one of the Bolt's weaknesses

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b802184e361c039008b52d8-960-720.jpg
The Bolt's touchscreen doesn't have Tesla-like capabilities, but it benefits
from a simple layout and bright colors

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b8021db1982d837008b559d-960-720.jpg
The vehicle doesn't come with an advanced cruise-control system (like
Tesla's Autopilot) or built-in navigation

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b8021db1982d837008b559d-960-720.jpg
You can view a breakdown of your energy usage on this screen

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b8021c704f16230008b5589-960-720.jpg
I liked the contrasting colors on the seats and dashboard, but the materials
felt and looked a little cheap, even though my Bolt had leather on some
parts of the seats and steering wheel

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b8021602154a388328b491b-960-720.jpg
Minor complaints aside, after driving the Bolt for a day and a half, I
understood the hype framing it as a potential catalyst for mainstream
electric-vehicle adoption

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b80211b1982d822008b557b-960-720.jpg

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b8022135c5e52fe368b502b-960-720.jpg
But that changed once I tried to charge it


Re: [EVDL] Please tell CSIRO how wrong they are about hydrogen.

2018-09-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I entered my comments but nothing happened.  Only 5 are posted.
seems our comments are being dumped?
bob

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> While I have great respect for CSIRO they seem to like hydrogen.  You can
> comment on their article expounding the virtues of hydrogen. I and others
> have convinced the likes of Amory Lovins of the dead end hydrogen is.
> Amory being the originator(think Sunrise) of the Hypercar is a great
> thinker and when realizing his mistake backtracked.
> https://blog.csiro.au/how-hydrogen-power-can-help-us-
> cut-emissions-boost-exports-and-even-drive-further-
> between-refills/?utm_source=Snapshot-September-2018_
> medium=newsletter_campaign=Snapshot
>Lawrence Rhodes
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>
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Re: [EVDL] 2008 Power Phase 100 UQM motors

2018-09-04 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 8:24 PM, Rod Hower via EV  wrote:

> > I'm interested, I design invertors and EV controls...


Then you want to look at the huge supply of AC motor EV's all built and
tested and ready to go that just haave a bad BMS.

Take a look at all the abandoned THINK's out there.  Great car.  Its just
they went bankrupt, and the common failure part which is part of the
Battery BMS are all gone.

These cars have plastic bodies that dont wear out.  We need somene with the
smarts to simply scrap what is in these cars now, and come up with an AC
controller to drive the existin AC motor...  Then you have at least 400
identical cars in the USA there for cheap.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EVrecall: Ford Focus L1 EVSE> fire reports, cheap thermistor fix (RE-USE!)

2018-08-22 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Wow, if we could get our hands on all those RETURNED  L1 EVSE's!
We could use them in permanent installations for L1 charging.

I would hate for them to all be recalled and trashed.
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 3:53 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5 
Subject: [EVDL] EVrecall: Ford Focus L1 EVSE> fire reports, cheap thermistor
fix



https://www.cars.com/articles/49000-ford-focus-electric-fusion-energi-and-c-max-energi-cars-recall-alert-1420702665093/
49,000 Ford Focus Electric, Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi Cars: Recall
Alert August 22, 2018  Patrick Masterson

Vehicles Affected: Approximately 49,000 model-year 2012-15 Ford Focus
Electric and model-year 2013-15 Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi electric
vehicles equipped with 120-volt convenience charge cords

The Problem: Using the originally provided 120-volt convenience charge cord
with an AC outlet that is not on a dedicated circuit or is damaged, worn or
corroded may result in increased temperature at the wall outlet, increasing
the risk of a fire.

Ford said it is aware of some fire reports.

The Fix: Dealers will replace the factory-equipped 120-volt convenience
charge cord with the latest version of the 120-volt convenience cord that
includes a thermistor, which can identify over-temperature conditions at the
plug or outlet interface. The repair will be done for free.

What Owners Should Do: Ford did not immediately announce an
owner-notification schedule. Owners can call the automaker at 866-436-7332,
the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's vehicle-safety hotline
at 888-327-4236 or visit its website to check their vehicle identification
number and learn more.

Need to Find a Dealer for Service? Go to Cars.com Service & Repair to find
your local dealer. To check for other recalls, and to schedule a free recall
repair at your local dealership, click here: Ford Focus Electric; Ford
Fusion Energi; Ford C-Max Energi [© cars.com]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EPA attempt to put "safety" over emissions... -wrong-

2018-08-02 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Green Car Reports shows how Trump's EPS is rephrasing the issue of freezing
the mileage standard for cars is actually a safety issue!  IE, bigger cars
are safer.  Therefore the EPA should allows bigger cars and screw the gas
mileage...

BUT!   The number one counter argument to Trump's EPA roll back of emissions
standards based on "bigger is safer" is ... crash tests of the TESLA!

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1118023_trump-administration-releases-proposal-to-weaken-fuel-economy-emissions-standards

The Tesla has ZERO emissions (infinite gas mileage) and is the safest there
is...

Just FYI

Bob Bruninga, PE
Instructor, US Naval Academy
410-293-6417
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

2018-07-30 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
>  halogen  $31.94/12;
>  LED $107.88/12.

That's $9 each!
Wow, not at my home depot.
60W(eq) LEDs in a package of 4 only cost $8 or $2 each at my home depot
75W(eq) maybe cost $3 each?
This is a routine price, not a "sale"...
But I think the utilities subsidize them somewhat.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 2:56 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' 
Cc: Roger Stockton 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

David Roden wrote:

> Incandescents that are used daily burn out fast, and get replaced with
> modern CF or LED retrofits.

My experience is that if you are in the habit of turning a light on when
you enter a room and off when you leave, that CFLs will die *faster* than
incandescents.  If you leave a CFL on continuously, it will last much
longer than if it is switched on and off frequently.

I don't yet know if LED bulbs will outlast CFLs or incandscents when they
are switched on and off frequently.  (See, for instance,
.)

> For something like this argument to hit home and get them off their
> duffs, they have to able to nod and think, "Sure, that makes sense for
> us."
> Whether it's accurate or not, does "LEDs pay for the EV's energy"
> really do that, do you think?

When I was trying to convince my strata corporation to allow me to charge
my EV (a conversion), what I found was that many people cannot understand
the amount of energy that an EV consumes.  They see an extremely large
"appliance" and assume that it will consume so much electricity that the
lights in the building will dim when it is plugged in, and the electric
bill will go through the roof, etc.

So, I think the challenge will be in making them understand/appreciate
that the energy savings associated with a few lightbulbs can really save
enough energy to allow an EV to drive some miles each day.

As to the "accurate or not", I think it is not trivial to get an accurate
idea of the possible savings.  Due to the difficulty buying household
incandescents now, I tried a couple of apples-to-apples comparisons using
Home Depot (Canada)'s online catalog:

50W GU10 halogen vs 5W LED:

  - halogen $15.97/6, so $31.94/12; LED $107.88/12.
  - LEDs cost $75.94 more; at $0.10/kWh, this is the cost of
759.4kWh of electricity
  - LEDs save 540W/h of use; so it will take 1406.29h, or 281.25 days
(0.77yr) at 5h/day with all 12 LEDs on before any saved electricity
is available for the EV.
  - after the breakeven point, each LED bulb used 5h/day will save
225Wh/day,
or about 1mi of range

23W CFL vs 14W LED (both 100W equivalent):

  - CFL $15.97/4, LED $12.97/2, so $25.94/4
  - LEDs cost $9.97 more; at $0.10/kWh, this is the cost of 99.7kWh
of electricity
  - LEDs save 36W/h of use; so it will take 2769.4h, or 553.8 days (1.5yr)
at 5h/day with all 4 LEDs on before any saved electricity is available
for the EV.
  - after the breakeven point, each LED bulb used 5h/day will save
45Wh/day,
or about 1/5mi of range

While it is fairly unarguable that *any* amount of electricity saved in
our everyday non-EV use lives will allow us to drive an EV *some* distance
without increasing our utility bill, I think it is still unclear that
there is an economic benefit, which is unfortunate since more people
understand dollars than watt-hours or miles of range ;^>

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (Split AC unlts) (and SOLAR!)

2018-07-29 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
One other thing to remember is that there are now mini-split AC/Heatpumps
that run directly on solar panels.  This allows the DIY person to use LOTS
of solar directly without having to have a grid/tie net meter.

Since many modern mini-split units now have variable speed compressors,
this means internally they run on DC, and that then makes a perfect
marriage to solar.  See:

http://www.hotspotenergy.com/solar-air-conditioner/


Bob

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> What struck me in that report was that those homes with ducted
> airconditioning used twice the AC energy than those with split-systems.
> LIkely this is because split systems put the cool where you want it most
> and are generally newer more efficient systems... and also probably smaller
>
> No real point here, but these split units, especially if they are combined
> AC/heatpumps are surprisingly easy to install in older homes and the
> heatputmp side can drastically reduce the energy used by the existing
> fossil fuel heating system.  Also they are inhereently "zoned" which gives
> you local zone control too.
>
> bob
>
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Awesome via EV wrote:
>> >> http://www.lowcarbonlivingcrc.com.au/sites/all/files/publica
>> tions_file_attachments/statistical_analysis_of_driving_facto
>> rs_of_residential_energy_demand_-_final.pdf
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry; but I'm still skeptical. That study was for 9000 homes in
>> Sidney Australia. They're just measuring the total power used in the home;
>> lighting is not separated. The report even says that gathering decent data
>> is very difficult and error-prone.
>>
>> So it says *nothing* about how many light are on in buildings.
>>
>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (Split AC unlts)

2018-07-29 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
What struck me in that report was that those homes with ducted
airconditioning used twice the AC energy than those with split-systems.
LIkely this is because split systems put the cool where you want it most
and are generally newer more efficient systems... and also probably smaller

No real point here, but these split units, especially if they are combined
AC/heatpumps are surprisingly easy to install in older homes and the
heatputmp side can drastically reduce the energy used by the existing
fossil fuel heating system.  Also they are inhereently "zoned" which gives
you local zone control too.

bob

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

>
> Awesome via EV wrote:
> >> http://www.lowcarbonlivingcrc.com.au/sites/all/files/publica
> tions_file_attachments/statistical_analysis_of_driving_
> factors_of_residential_energy_demand_-_final.pdf
>
>
> I'm sorry; but I'm still skeptical. That study was for 9000 homes in
> Sidney Australia. They're just measuring the total power used in the home;
> lighting is not separated. The report even says that gathering decent data
> is very difficult and error-prone.
>
> So it says *nothing* about how many light are on in buildings.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

2018-07-28 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I love mine.  It is quiet a little more than a refrigerator but nothing at
all like a windw AC unit for noise.  What I love about it is the
serendipitous dehumidifying.  My basement has always been a place of doom
and mold and wetness.  I was too cheap to run a dehumidifier (basically a
year round AC unit going nowhwere)...  Now I get that function for free
while also heating hot water at 1/3rd the energy.

But, my wife is very picky.  So I run it in hybrid mode.  That is, the
heatpump heats from the bottom of the tank upwards to 100 F (where it is
most efficient) and then I set the top of the water heater to 120F which
is done by electric.   So, with incoming water at 60F, then the first 40
degrees is done ver efficiently maybe for 1/3rd the normal cost and the
top 1/4th of the tank is raised another 20F to satisfy my wife.

Donno how long it takes after full depletion.  Never happens now that the
kids are gone.  Oh, and the heat pumped out of the basement is simply not
noticed.  I even call this a "ground source" water heatpump, because the
basement is half concrete with normal floors and the other half is
crawlspace over dirt.  SO aany/all heat in the basement comes from the
ground or waste heat from occasional laundry, yet the temperature in the
basement never seems to get cold.  Even though the heatpump water heater
is taking heat out of it.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 11:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

Mark,

I've been considering a heat pump HW tank. My current tank is close to
20 years old and probably will need replacing soon. Two big concerns I
have are
- how long is the heat pump mechanism warrantied?
- how noisy is it?
A third question is how long does it take to get hot enough for a shower,
if depleted? Assume 50F cold water.

In our case, the garage, where we have the HW tank, is under our living
space and very close to our master bedroom. I don't want to hear humming
through the floor.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: leeah...@earthlink.net
Cc: "Mark Hanson" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 28-Jul-18 8:23:13 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

>Hi Lee etc
>I have a GE GeoSpring "heat pump" hot water heater that uses 600w
>instead of 4500w resulting in about 1/4 the monthly kWh usage for the
>same btu h20 heating and dehumidifies the basement. It's used in any
>climate as long as your underground basement is 12x12 or larger.  GE
>etc just takes their refrigerator compressors and puts them in
>backwards so it's really not a heat pump, just marketing speak for
>consumers. You have to hook up the pee line like on your a AC unit
>outside or use a condensate pump. Typically a 3 year payback.  AO Smith
>and Siebel etc make also.
>Have a renewable energy day
>Mark
>
>Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
The calculation was for 50 bulbs 5 hours a day.  In my house, I leave 3
basement lights, and one shop light on all the time (hard to get to the
switches). And outdoors, there are 4 lights on dawn-to dusk (say 10
hours).

So, do the math.  The 4 bulbs on 24/7 are the same as 19  bulbs for 5 h
ours.  The 4 lights on for 10 hours a day are equivalent to another 8 bulbs
in my case of 5 hours.  So you see, already there are 28 of the 50 bulbs.
The other 22 bulbs lncludes the 5 in the dining room fixture, 5 in the
kitchen.  2 each in 2 bathrooms (4 total) and 2 in each bedroom (8 total)
and there is the 50, not counting at least 6 more bulbs scattered around
the house that are not on.  So the 50 bulbs I used seems reasonable.

With three teenagers, all the lights are on from dusk to around midnight.
About a third are 100W, about a third are 75 and about a third are 60.  I
stand by the average of 75W and that saves about 60W each when replaced
with a 9W LED.

I stand by my numbers.

Bob

se 8 lights alone are worth   In 24 hours, that is the same as

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Matt Awesome via EV 
wrote:

> > I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
> > lights on all evening and assuming averqaeg 75 Watt incandescent bulbs
> > originally..
>
> Which is some extreme outlier family who's electrical usage is
> literally 10x the average home.
>
> Ya gotta think, the crossover between people who use 10x the national
> average of electricity, as much energy as the rest of their entire
> block, and people who drive EVs, would drive EVs, or would even care
> about the monetary savings... is probably exactly zero.
>
> So, I'm not sure how much value there is in such an extreme off-case.
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261916305360
>
> This has some datasets in Table 3 for hours of lights on in 3 different
> rooms.
>
> The mean for a living room is 7.15 with a standard deviation of 4.32.
> To find someone with not even 3x that (20), you're already looking at
> 1 household out of 1000. Let alone 10x that.
>
> I can't actually find a calculator that'll give me the odds for 71.5
> hours, it's so extraordinarily rare. It's like, one person per state,
> maybe.
>
> > But he equally exaggerated errors.
>
> I don't see that you showed that I did.
>
>  - You're claiming the average bulb in a house is 75W, which is even
> more ridiculous than 60w. Average bulb wattage for incandescents is
> probably 45, maybe 50 watts. I don't think that's an exaggerated claim
> to say you're not saving 100%, you're only saving 80%, which is about
> what I used in my math.
>
>  - I said two vehicles per family. Which is accurate. You said
> swapping bulbs provides the same amount of power needed to charge an
> EV the American average. Okay, true on a technicality but you're
> mixing variables. You're looking at a household average to find the
> savings, and then not using a household average of miles (only an
> individual average of miles). Okay, fine.
>
> Worst case I'm off by a factor of 2 for counting a second vehicle.
> You're off by a factor of 10-15.
>
> You said "Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent
> bulbs to LEDs" but want to amend that to "a house that leaves most of
> their lights on all evening" which is really "a house with also nearly
> double the average bulb wattage" which is off, in terms of
> frequency, by a factor of somewhere in the range of millions to tens
> of millions relative to the actual "average" household's lighting
> requirements.
>
> That's like saying "The average household switching from a lawnmower
> to a pair of nail clippers to mow their lawn will save time!", if by
> "average household" you mean "Those with only 10 blades of grass or
> fewer", which is functionally no one.
>
> ...
>
> I know this seems like I'm being pedantic, but, absurd, extreme
> arguments presented from an energy conservation side are what people
> use to ridicule, mock, and reject making changes in their lives or in
> the policies of government. It's literally as silly as telling people
> to go cut their lawn with nail clippers because it's faster. No, it's
> not, and saying things like that gets genuine problems laughed at.
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs (update)

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
UPDATE:
For grins, I had  the LEDs from a second bulb.  It fully illuminated at the
same 80 volts over 14 LEDs at 60 mA, but was 100% linear among the LEDs.
Every one of the LEDs started dim and ramped up linearly and identical to
each other just as one would expect in a series string.

A retest of the original set still showed the totally erratic threshold
effect of each of the LEDs flicking on and off until all were on at the same
80vdc and 60 ma.  -still  unexplained-

-Original Message-
From: Robert Bruninga 
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:04 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Robert Bruninga 
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

> If you're running the LEDs on 120vac, the voltage drop needed is much
larger.

The 60W equivalent I just took apart had a full 14 LEDs in series but still
used a PWM controller.

It took 80 volts DC to get the LED's to their proper brilliance.  So just a
small resistor will do.

This is just the metal disk with the 14 LEDs all in series, no other
electronics.

What was interesting was that 3 came on at around 15 volts, then more and
more came on as the voltage was raised.  And they shifted back and forth at
various levels until they were all on.  Since the bulb was rated at 9 Watts,
and assuming 80% PWM efficiency, then I assumed the LED's were rated at 60
mA. And that took 80 volts.

All the flashing back and forth as each began to illuminate surprised me.
It was almost as if there was a threshold effect.  As a new LED decided to
illuminate, then the series string suffered due to the greater current and
so all the other LED's adjusted.  Some ablve and some below threshold.
All being in series, it looks like there is a significant variability in
their characteristics.  But once I hit 80 volts the current above that was
linear.  But at 80 is also where it got to 60 mA and I did not go much
higher.

I was using a regulated variable DC supply with no series resistor (Supply
was current limited at 120 mA).

PS, this divides out to be about 5.7 volts per LED.  Much higher than the
2.8 mentioned?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> There are ground-based heat pumps ... via a network of buried pipes...
> But this can get very expensive. The decision is economic: How many
> thousands of dollars will you spend to save a dollar a month?

Well the math is easy.  I was spending $3000 a year on heating oil (1000
gallons).
My Ground Source heatpump now heats the house for about $1000 worth of
(utility) electricity a year.  That saves me $2000 a year, or $20,000 over
ten years and more than paid for the added cost of the deep wells.

And I plan on living for another 25 or so...  The wells last "forever" and
any replacement indoor units are the same whether it is geothermal or not.
So I figure the $40,000 or so savings over the remaining time in that
house is much more than a "dollar a month"...

AND my house is solar, so in effect, my electricity is actually FREE after
the 10 year amortorization.
SO in the second 10 years, my savings are $3000 a year or $30,000 for the
next decade and so on.

>> Heatpump water heater heating at one third the electric energy
>> cost still beats a tankless hands down.

> That's true in the right circumstances. But you can't assume they
>  are always right. How long is it between when the water is heated,
> and when it is used? The longer it sits, the higher your standby losses.

> The demand heater doesn't lose any energy to these standby losses.

But I use hot water every day, morning and evening.  I adjust the capacity
(by adjusting the termprature) so that we only maintain the hot water we
need.

> The savings are hard to estimate because they depend so much on where
> you live, and your lifestyle. Is the heater in a hot garage, or a cold
basement?
> How much hot water do you use a day? Just one person, or a big family?

Yep, anyone installing a water heater should of course size it to their
needs in that installation.

> In my case (water heater in MN basement, a 2-person household that uses
> less than 10 gal/day) a heat pump water heater is uneconomical compared
to gas.

But if one has an anathema to continuing to burn a fossil fuel and
continuing dependence on the utility gas company for fuel every month
forever, then a heatpump water heater is ideal, since it can run on your
own home-produced solar power

> Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

I like that.
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Again, it was the LED board only..  No other parts other than the 14 white
LED's in series.

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:43 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> The 60W equivalent I just took apart had a full 14 LEDs in series but
> still used a PWM controller.
>
> It took 80 volts DC to get the LED's to their proper brilliance.  So
> just a small resistor will do.

Right. And a rectifier. :-)

80/120v means a simple series resistor would make it 67% effient. Not bad.
40v at 60ma is 2.4 watts of waste heat.

> What was interesting was that 3 came on at around 15 volts, then more
> and more came on as the voltage was raised.  And they shifted back and
> forth at various levels until they were all on.

My guess is that there is more to the circuit than may appear. The
flashing could be a side effect of the PWM circuit's "brownout"
characteristics.

It's also possible that there are other parts inside the LED package
itself, too. Some are designed for applications like 5v indicators or 12v
car lights, and have their own internal regulator or limiter.

All these LED lights are made in China. They will use whatever part falls
to hand this week, regardless of its specs or source.

> PS, this divides out to be about 5.7 volts per LED.  Much higher than
> the 2.8v mentioned?

Was that actually measured at the LED? Or just 80v at the PWM input,
divided by 14 LEDs? It is likely that the PWM itself has a considerable
voltage drop, so this won't properly estimate the LED voltage.

It's also possible that each LED actually has more than one chip inside.

The 2.8v I used in my example was for the red LEDs inside a cheap car tail
light. That's actually rather high for red -- typical red LEDs are usually
1.6-1.8v. But they were driving these red LEDs at excessive currents;
about 100ma, when the part's data sheet says 60ma absolute maximum. (This
is unfortunately a common practice).

White LED voltages are generally higher; in the 3.x volt range.

--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
To make the math work, I should have said, "the average house with
teenagers leaving all the lights on for 5 hours a day".  [50 lights times
60W saved times 5 hours a day = 40 miles daily EV charging]

I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
lights on all evening and assuming averqaeg 75 Watt incandescent bulbs
originally..

The average house with compulsive behaviors who turn off every unused
light will be 10% of this as Matt noted...  But he equally exaggerated
errors.
.
On Jul 25, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Matt Awesome via EV 
wrote:

>> Remember this factoid.
>> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to
>> LEDs saves the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the
>> American 40 mile average per day forever.
>
> Plainly, no, it won't.
>
>> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.
> Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?
> I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave
> them all on 5 hours a day.
>
> LEDs aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.

I assumed an average 75W equivalent bulb (saving 60W) when going to a 9W
LED.
And around here, 60W equivalents are about $1 each (probably subsidized by
the utility).

> How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:  ...
> That's 27kwh/day.
>
> What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?: ...
> Source 3: - 9%.
> Source 4:  - 6%.
>
> The split [might depend] on whether heat is made through gas or
electricity.
> So, we could say 27kwh/day of which lighting is 6% or 15kwh/day of
> which lighting is 9% to at least be in the right ballpark (to arrive at
this:)
> - 27kwh*6% = 1.62kwh/day.
> - 15kwh*9% = 1.35kwh/day.
>
> You're claiming 10x that amount in *savings* from switching to LED, ...

Yes, I should have said in some homes who leave every light on all
evening...

>> Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.
>
> Since it's not the 1970s, the average household has at least 2
> vehicles, more when there's teenagers/college kids.

I said for one EV.  I didn't say for every car a household could own.

> Add in that LEDs aren't free, you're off by a factor of 25x.

I included their 9W when subtracted from an incandescent 75W to arrive at
60W savings per bulb.
And around here they only cost $1 each for a 60W LED.

> It would be more accurate to say that by switching from incandescents
> to LEDs, you could expect to save enough energy to cover 4% of your
> electric vehicle use. A pretty banal, unsensational, non-headlight
> grabbing rhetoric for sure, but at least an accurate one.

I stand by my numbers when corrected to a house that leaves most of their
lights on all evening.

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
AMEN!  Mine is a GE also, cost me $800 on sale.

BUT, I warn others to buy the special add on warranty if available.

Normally, I shun all these add-on warranties as just coinsumer rip-offs.
But after reading plenty of on-line reviews, there were a very high number
of installation errors reported (mostly due to the plumber being sloppy).
But in the case of such an expensive water heater, get the added full
coverage (initially) warranty.  Once it has proven beyond all the possible
installation errors, they seem to be excellent in the long run.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 11:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: ROBERT 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

I usually do not comment on energy use posting because this is an ev blog.
However, if you want to save energy in a house, buy a hybrid hot water
heater.  They cost $1800 - $2000; but they are worth the money.  They have
a 20 yr warranty on the tank.  The average HW heater has a 8 - 10 yr
warranty and little insulation (fast heat loss). I purchase a used one
made by GE off of craigslist for $200. I installed an energy monitor with
a totalize for KW-Hrs.  My pay back is less than one year because I
replaced a builder grade propane HW heater.  It beats LED lighting any
day. I also use LED lights.




From: EV  on behalf of Matt Awesome via EV

Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 11:08 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matt Awesome
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

> Remember this factoid.

I'm all for saving energy and obviously I'm here so I'm passionate about
EV use, but, it's also important to me to not treat this like some kind of
religion.

> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to LEDs
> saves the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the American 40
> mile average per day forever.

Plainly, no, it won't.

> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.

Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?

I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave them
all on 5 hours a day.

Anyone with that many fixtures is putting 40w bulbs into them. And LEDs
aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.

Let's try to get some more realistic numbers.

How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:
Source 1: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97=3 - Independent
US Energy & Information Statistics says ~10,000kwh/year.
That's 27kwh/day.
Source 2:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Energy/Electricity/Consumpt
ion-by-households-per-capita#2005
- Around half that.

What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?:
Source 3: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=96=3 - 9%.
Source 4:
https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-energy-consumption-is-from-lighti
ng-in-a-typical-American-house
- 6%.

The split seems to vary depending on whether heat is made through gas or
electricity. Meaning the lower percentage use numbers for lighting are
from houses that use 2x as much electricity (for heat). If they're not
making heat electrically, their lighting percentage is higher (but the
same net total).

So, we could say 27kwh/day of which lighting is 6% or 15kwh/day of which
lighting is 9% to at least be in the right ballpark (this argument is
about general scale, not really precision).

What is the average lighting demand for a US household?:
- 27kwh*6% = 1.62kwh/day.
- 15kwh*9% = 1.35kwh/day.

Somewhere around 1500 watt-hours a day.

You're claiming 10x that amount in *savings* from switching to LED, let
alone total lighting use.

> Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.

Since it's not the 1970s, the average household has at least 2 vehicles,
more when there's teenagers/college kids.

So... your "factoid" for a household is now off by a factor of 20x.

Add in that LEDs aren't free, you're off by a factor of 25x.

It would be more accurate to say that by switching from incandescents to
LEDs, you could expect to save enough energy to cover 4% of your electric
vehicle use. A pretty banal, unsensational, non-headlight grabbing
rhetoric for sure, but at least an accurate one.

You can nitpick those numbers a bit, they might be off by, oh, perhaps
double, but they're not off by an order of magnitude.
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... LEDs

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> If you're running the LEDs on 120vac, the voltage drop needed is much
larger.

The 60W equivalent I just took apart had a full 14 LEDs in series but
still used a PWM controller.

It took 80 volts DC to get the LED's to their proper brilliance.  So just
a small resistor will do.

This is just the metal disk with the 14 LEDs all in series, no other
electronics.

What was interesting was that 3 came on at around 15 volts, then more and
more came on as the voltage was raised.  And they shifted back and forth
at various levels until they were all on.  Since the bulb was rated at 9
Watts, and assuming 80% PWM efficiency, then I assumed the LED's were
rated at 60 mA. And that took 80 volts.

All the flashing back and forth as each began to illuminate surprised me.
It was almost as if there was a threshold effect.  As a new LED decided to
illuminate, then the series string suffered due to the greater current and
so all the other LED's adjusted.  Some ablve and some below threshold.
All being in series, it looks like there is a significant variability in
their characteristics.  But once I hit 80 volts the current above that was
linear.  But at 80 is also where it got to 60 mA and I did not go much
higher.

I was using a regulated variable DC supply with no series resistor (Supply
was current limited at 120 mA).

PS, this divides out to be about 5.7 volts per LED.  Much higher than the
2.8 mentioned?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

2018-07-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Not true.  Heatpump water heater heating at one third the electric energy
cost still beats a tankless hands down.

The only time it wouldn't is when the house with tankless is unused for
long periods.
Plus, the heatpump waater heater can run from solar and cost another half
and be emissions free.
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Jay Summet via EV
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 9:48 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jay Summet 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)


On 07/26/2018 02:38 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> 4. Tankless demand heaters (that only heat the water when it is
> actually
> needed) are more efficient that anything you can do with a tank-type
> waterheater, regular or hybrid.

Yes, when comparing gas tankless to gas tanked heaters.

NO for Electrically operated tankless heaters vs hybrid (heat pump) water
heaters with a tank.

Most tankless heaters are gas as the electric ones require a MASSIVE
service (24-27 KW, 100+ amps) to heat water instantaneously (via a restive
element). Even with heat losses due to storage, the efficiency of an
electrically operated heat pump for heating (4x or better than a restive
element) will always beat an electrically operated restive heater.

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT) (adding solar E/W!)

2018-07-26 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
> Also, we currently do around half our household driving on electric,
> and I would like to push that up in the next couple of years...
> but that will take some creativity as I got as many solar put on my
> southern facing roof as there was room for,,,

Nothing magic about south.  East facing will still generate 85% of what
south can do.  West can do the same thing.
Even on my NORTH roof, I get 60% of what ideal south can do.  And since
adding solar panels at 50 cents per watt is dirt cheap, just put them
ANYWHERE that you have sun.

And now that you have a net meter, all you have to do is jut PLLUG THE
SOLAR PANELS (and GT micro- inverter) into any outlet.  You can add 2 to 4
panels at a time using the cheap 600W plug-in micro grid tie inverters.
And being a plugin appliance, you don't need an electrical permit.  Just
common sense.

Here is one good for two panels at a time. For example.
https://www.amazon.com/SUN-600G-Micro-Solar-Inverter-Seller/dp/B0089UA9KO

And remember, that if you can point solar panels in 90 degree or more
different directions, then the same inverter can handle twice as many
panels.  This keeps invertor cost low while doubling your effective solar
power (same power as 2 panels but twice as long).

I have solar panels on the roof of my boat, on my ham radio trailer, and
even on my van.  These yard ornaments are just sitting there in the sun
99.99% of th e time, so I just put ssolar panels on them, and these cheap
GT inverters and justs plug 'em in.

See the solar panels on the van about 60% down this page:
http://aprs.org/alternative-energy.html
And on the useless boat about 30% down the page...

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ... (bad LED power ckts)

2018-07-26 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I am now seeing LED bulb failures.  A total of 6 so far, and every one of
them is not the LED's but the power circuit.
I run them through a band saw to remove the "pingpong" plastic dome and
remove two screws and the flat LED PCB
Simply unplugs from pins on the power circuit.

The LEDs themselves are always good.

I use the LED circuit board as-is in other lower voltage lighting
projects.
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 6:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: ROBERT ; brucedp5 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Reduce EV: Charging load on the grid ...

The other advance that made LED lighting possible was low cost PWM LED
drivers on a chip or with few components.  Even today an LED cannot take a
continuous high current.

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[EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

2018-07-25 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Remember this factoid.

Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to LEDs saves
the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the American 40 mile average
per day forever.

In other words, no change to the grid.

50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.
Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.

AND, just 12 solar panels (3kW) for 5 hours a day can then make the 15 kWh
per day FREE forever.
Bob
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[EVDL] Are there any electric Jet Skis?

2018-07-24 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Are there any electric Jet Skis?
There was an announcement by ZERO motorcyles prototype a year ago.
Can't find anything since...


Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax repeal events.

2018-07-18 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
How do they think the roads are going to get paid for?
Hummh...
bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 5:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes 
Subject: [EVDL] Gas tax repeal events.

There is a movement to repeal the gas tax.  They have events.  I think where
possible we should be present with our table and literature to spread our
word. https://gastaxrepeal.org/events/ Lawrence Rhodes Sent from Yahoo Mail
on Android
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Re: [EVDL] J1772

2018-06-24 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Amazon has L1 EVSE for $199 and L2 for $230
bob

On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Denis Boutet via EV 
wrote:

> Hi EV enthousiasts!
>
> Am looking for a J1772 male connector and wire to add to my existing
> charging station.  As well am looking for a 240V charging station - new or
> used, to install at my work place.  I live in the Grand Montreal area.
> Feel free ton contact me if you have one for sale or if you know anyone.
> Thanks!
>
>
> Denis Boutet
> La Vérité te libérera
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: mankamemotors.com EP-1 e-Motorcycle.in r:500km ts:251kph

2018-06-05 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
OK, I'll rephrase it.

Why would anyone with a motorcycle (usually bought for speed,
acceleration, and fun of driving) want to carry around a 300 mile battery
*everyday,everywhere* that makes a huge bulk, weighs three times more,
slows the bike down and makes it less agile just for the very rare, "just
in case"?

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2018 11:31 PM
Subject: EVLN: mankamemotors.com EP-1 e-Motorcycle.in r:500km ts:251kph

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> Why would anyone want to ride 300 miles on a motorcycle without
> stopping anyway?  I think motorcycles are more for local travel and
> fun.  Not boring 300 mile long trips.

I don't think people would routinely ride it 300 miles at a time. But just
like ICE cars that can go hundreds of miles without refueling, people want
the long range without recharging "just in case". It's a comfort factor;
they don't need it every day, but want it to be there when they need it.

I live in the midwest, and routinely drive my EVs. They have a range of
about 100 miles; enough to go anywhere in my local area. But if I want to
drive to (say) the Twin Cities and back, it can easily be a 200 mile round
trip. Our Leaf can't do it. In theory, I could charge someplace in the
Minneapolis/St. Paul before heading back; but the places I go don't have
fast-charging facilities, so I'd have to stay overnight to get enough
charge to get back home.

In these circumstances, I have to take my ICE. I'd rather take my EV, but
can't until it has more range.

--
The most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing one that is
just good enough. -- Eric S. Raymond
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: mankamemotors.com EP-1 e-Motorcycle.in r:500km ts:251kph

2018-06-04 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Why would anyone want to ride 300 miles on a motorcycle without stopping
anyway.?
I think motorcycles are more for local travel and fun.  Not boring 300 mile
long trips.
Bob

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:15 PM, Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:

> Good luck with that. Not going to happen.
>
> Al
>
>
> Building an electric car with a range of 310 miles (500 km) is not such a
>> difficult task these days as far as batteries are concerned. The size of
>> the
>> car allows for enough cells to be fitted so that the vehicles can have the
>> desired reach. Not the same can be said about electric motorcycles.
>>
>>
>>
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[EVDL] EV-angelicals and Uber, Lyft?

2018-06-02 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Have you already told everyone you know about the wonders of EV driving?
Is there no one else that will listen to you over and over again?

Then trap new people to talk to... Drive for Uber of Lyft.

--
Wouild that make sense as a promo?  Is there anyone on this list that is an
uber or lyft driver that can comment on this idea?

Bob
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[EVDL] Rear view mirrors drag

2018-05-31 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Audi claims that rear view mirros add between 0.015 to 0.03 to the drag
coefficient and that equates to about 5 to 9 miles of EV range.

I assume relative to XXX miles overall range. (they didn't say the range
of the 2019 etron SUV.  But if we assume it is 200 miles then that is a 3%
or so improvement

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116976_camera-mirrors-could-add-rang
e-to-audi-e-tron-electric-suv
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Re: [EVDL] EV Brakes

2018-05-24 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
But releasing the accelerator at any time to cause high regen is the same
as a hard braking event, (a rapid deceleration of the car changing speed)
and a waste of energy unless it is part of an unavoidable stopping event..
Coasting instead of regen will retain double the energy compared to using
regen no matter whether it is from pressing the brake pedal or simply
releasing pressure on the accelerator.  You mention feathering the
accelerator, but I interpret that as during acceleration.

And cruise control is also wasteful, since it will use regen to maintain
speed going down a hill instead of letting the car coast and -preserve- its
kinetic energy and the added potential energy from the hill.  Both of which
are double what you can get from regen.

In summary, Braking is bad in any car (throws away energy)  Regen is half
as bad.  Coasting is the only thing that is "good".

Bob

Bob

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 2:27 PM, robert winfield <winfield...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Except, I rarely used the brakes at all, but instead used a combination of
> high regeneration, cruise control, feathering the accelerator as necessary,
> and almost never touched the brakes except to eliminate the "creep" when
> stopped.
>
> I have both* 2.2 million miles driving experience* and 53 months
> ownership of a 2014 Chevy Volt.
>
> The last 3 wrecks I was in were when i was stopped at a stop light, rear
> ended, in clear weather, by distracted drivers
> First and 2nd were texting, once an attempted carjacking near Takoma Park
> Metro station and last was on a 5 mile straight, 4lane divided highway,
> clear weather, light traffic, no sun glare, distracted elderly driver,
> absolutely no reason to hit me, I was stopped for 8-10 seconds
>
> I DON'T tailgate, it's a recipe for death, destruction and sorrow
>
> i became quite adept at 1,000 mile, 1 pedal driving w/cruise control,
> It matters not whether it is wasteful to use brakes or regeneration, (with
> brake lights)
>
> If i tried coasting to a stop in SW Florida, there are a LOT of hostile
> folks who would (and have) "show that libtard idiot with the EV/PHEV" and i
> would be dead
> I have been "Coal rolled" but they failed as the PHEV with a tiny goose of
> the accelerator zoomed past and  left them in their dust
> I have been going down I-75 and been passed, at night, by vehicles going
> almost twice as fast, with the effective actual speed limit just under 80
> (well over 130-140)
>
> traffic lights are at best a suggestion. people routinely go the wrong way
> at high speeds down divided highways because it's shorter, I have been
> casually sideswiped and my rear view mirror folded out
> who then ran. elderly drivers routinely get confused and just go, whether
> the light is green, yellow or red. A red light means 3-6 more vehicles caan
> go, some at very high rates of speed ,Slaloming  around stopped vehicles
>
> Couples get into arguments and jump out of cars at speed and die,
> you can easily get shot for looking at other motorists, who have stickers
> proclaiming "Assault Life" with crossed AR-15's
>
> Hypermiling/coasting is an invitation to a coffin, unless there is zero
> other traffic, the last time i hypermiled was in a 1956, 2 door Plymouth
> station wagon that was designed to "coast" when you let up on the
> acceleraator, which almost caused a wreck, before we hard disengaged the
> lever on the transmission, as it was extremely unsafe in any traffic.
>
> I never tailgate but stay well back, the radar is set in the new vehicle
> for 30-50 meters
>
> On Thursday, May 24, 2018, 12:36:54 PM EDT, Robert Bruninga via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> Then again, the driver could be still hard braking.  I have heard some
> people say that they frequently use the brakes to regen energy to extend
> range.  Makes no sense whatsoever.
>
> Heavy regen is not free energy, it is exactly the opposite.  Yes, it
> recovers maybe 55% of keinetic energy compared to an ICE car that throws
> away 100% of kinetic energy.  But still you are wasting fully HALF of the
> battery energy used to get to speed.
>
> But if the car is not coming to a stop and the driver is only applying the
> brakes to slow down because she was otherwise going too fast for traffic
> and conditions, then that is no free energy, it is wasted energy.
>
> Sure it is less waste than an ICE, but it is still *very wasteful* compared
> to coasting to preserve ones kinetic energy instead.
>
> Just a possibility.
>
> This report claims 55% recovery during regen:
> http://proev.com/LLPgs/LLei0005.htm
>
> Again, any use of regen that is not for the purpose of coming to a required
> stop, is throwing away 50% of the car'

Re: [EVDL] EV Brakes

2018-05-24 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Then again, the driver could be still hard braking.  I have heard some
people say that they frequently use the brakes to regen energy to extend
range.  Makes no sense whatsoever.

Heavy regen is not free energy, it is exactly the opposite.  Yes, it
recovers maybe 55% of keinetic energy compared to an ICE car that throws
away 100% of kinetic energy.  But still you are wasting fully HALF of the
battery energy used to get to speed.

But if the car is not coming to a stop and the driver is only applying the
brakes to slow down because she was otherwise going too fast for traffic
and conditions, then that is no free energy, it is wasted energy.

Sure it is less waste than an ICE, but it is still *very wasteful* compared
to coasting to preserve ones kinetic energy instead.

Just a possibility.

This report claims 55% recovery during regen:
http://proev.com/LLPgs/LLei0005.htm

Again, any use of regen that is not for the purpose of coming to a required
stop, is throwing away 50% of the car's kinetic energy, and is an
indication that the car is tailgating or generally speeding above the
average speed of vehicles in his lane (also wasting energy).

Bob


On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 5:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 23 May 2018 at 18:25, robert winfield via EV wrote:
>
> > So, a word to the wise, bad and poorly written software can get you
>
> I'm sure the software is badly written, but that's not the main problem.
> The whole premise is bogus.  It's the insurance company behind it that's
> "getting you."  They would still be "getting you" even if the software
> were
> bug-free.
>
> There's just way too much paternalism going down everywhere these days.
> Do
> you really want to volunteer for more?  You can sign up to have a
> permanent
> backseat driver if you want, but I sure won't.  I'm a big boy now, and I
> don't need or want daddy in the car with me every second and every mile.
>
> Not gonna dance to that tune.  Not even for a discount on my insurance.
> And
> I drive like your grandma, too.
>
> For the same reason (among others), I'll never buy a Tesla.  Remember when
> that "journalist" tried to kill the battery in an early Model S by driving
> it in circles in a parking lot?  At first I was amused that the car's
> software ratted him out to Musk.  Then I thought a little more about it,
> and
> decided it wasn't so funny after all.  It's not just guys like that
> Tesla's
> spying on.  It's EVERY Tesla driver, all the time.
>
> Musk is a brilliant businessman, and I'm glad he's pushed Detroit and
> Tokyo
> to get off their bums, but I'm just not interested in having him riding in
> my back seat.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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>
>
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[EVDL] EV Brakes

2018-05-23 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
 I heard this sentence this weekend and it sums up what I ttry to tell
people in a suscinct way:

Brakes are for STOPPING, not for slowing.  If you use the brakes for
slowing you are just throwing energy away and you were going too fast in
the first place.


Bob
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[EVDL] FW: Tuning in Solar and EV RFI (EVDL)

2018-05-12 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
How's AM reception on more recent EV?  On my 2004 Prius, AM was useless.

Anyone want to make an indepth report or provide a link?

-Original Message-
Subject: Tuning in Solar and EV RFI

I was wrong.  My Volt AM radio hears absolutely NO NOISE from the car
itself.  Amazing considering it is a 75 kW digital AM pulse transmitter
under the hood!

I tuned from 600 to 1700 MHz and heard at least one AM radio station on
almost all of the 110 channels except for about a dozen empty channels.

That's about 90% signals heard.  Compared to my 2004 prius, where I can tune
the same 110 channels and only hear about a dozen signals total due to the
high noise level caused by the Prius blocking out 90% of the weak signal
stations.

And remember, the BMW i3 EV doesn't even include an AM radio because they
did not want to have to respond to driver complaints as to why they could
not hear weak AM stations...

Wow, the Volt surprised me.

This means that I CAN use the car AM radio to kinda keep an ear out for
broadband Buzz from bad solar installations while I am driving around.

I want to begin to collect anecdoatal reports from anyone who thinks they
have done a good test of either their EV AM radio for cleanliness of the EV,
and then separately anechdotal results from driving near and around solar
installations and hearing noise.

I will collect it and put it on a web page:
http://aprs.org/solar-ev-rfi.html

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

2018-05-08 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
In the tesla, the density is almost ten times that of Pb and almost ten
times the cycles.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 3:55 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes 
Subject: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.


I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.
Are these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?
Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] EVjacker: Stymied by Bolt EV controls> arrested, $20k-bail Austin-TX

2018-02-28 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Yep, that is a very good scenario.  I have dont it often too. just as you
describe.  Left it on for a few second jump out of the car and then get
back in and hit start and end up stopping it.  I think you answered it .
bob


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 5:54 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> I would not be surprised if the car jacker, noticing that there was no
> engine sound, tried to start the car (thereby turning it off)
> and then could not start it again, because the FOB had left the cabin...
> Just a guess. Even I have had times that I arrived somewhere for a quick
> drop off, put the car in park without turning it off
> and upon re-entering, tried to turn it on, so it turned off on me...
> Obviously, for me it just meant a 5 sec delay to re-start.
>
> But it might be simpler than that, the thief might have tried and re-tried
> to crank the car and never gotten the desired result...
> Cor.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga
> via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 12:22 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Robert Bruninga; EVDL Administrator
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVjacker: Stymied by Bolt EV controls> arrested,
> $20k-bail Austin-TX
>
> But you can remove the FOB and the car still runs.
> Unless it was turned off.   Im not sure in the case of someone beting me
> up, I woiuld have the presence to remember to push the off button...
>
> bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 1:49 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc: EVDL Administrator <evp...@drmm.net>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVjacker: Stymied by Bolt EV controls> arrested,
> $20k-bail Austin-TX
>
> On 28 Feb 2018 at 10:32, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > [The alleged carjacker] then attempted to drive away but couldnTMt
> > because he didnTMt know how to drive an electric car, according to the
> > document.
> >
> > It said the owner of the car later told police, who were alerted at
> 11:10 a.m.
> > Saturday, that oehis vehicle cannot be driven like a normal vehicle
> > and takes some getting used to.
>
> I'm calling BS on this one.
>
> My uninformed guess (but no more uninformed than the writer of this piece)
> is that the car had an RFID key fob, just as many ICEVs now have. The fob
> was still in the driver's pocket, and the car refused to move because key
> fob and driver were no longer in the car, much less in the driver's seat..
>
> Ths stinks to the skies of the old anti-EV bias: "EVs are really WEIRD.
> What normal person would ever want one?"
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To
> send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVjacker: Stymied by Bolt EV controls> arrested, $20k-bail Austin-TX

2018-02-28 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
But you can remove the FOB and the car still runs.
Unless it was turned off.   Im not sure in the case of someone beting me
up, I woiuld have the presence to remember to push the off button...

bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 1:49 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVjacker: Stymied by Bolt EV controls> arrested,
$20k-bail Austin-TX

On 28 Feb 2018 at 10:32, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> [The alleged carjacker] then attempted to drive away but couldnTMt
> because he didnTMt know how to drive an electric car, according to the
> document.
>
> It said the owner of the car later told police, who were alerted at
11:10 a.m.
> Saturday, that oehis vehicle cannot be driven like a normal vehicle
> and takes some getting used to.�

I'm calling BS on this one.

My uninformed guess (but no more uninformed than the writer of this piece)
is that the car had an RFID key fob, just as many ICEVs now have. The fob
was still in the driver's pocket, and the car refused to move because key
fob and driver were no longer in the car, much less in the driver's seat..

Ths stinks to the skies of the old anti-EV bias: "EVs are really WEIRD.
What normal person would ever want one?"

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EV Clean energy charging?

2018-02-28 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Worked for me, and I don't use twitter.  You need a twitter account to add
comments at the end, but not to click the box of your choice.

Bob
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115485_if-you-own-an-electric-car-wh
ats-your-at-home-charging-source-take-our-twitter-poll


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Clean energy charging?

How do you take the poll? It just takes me to twitter and I don't use
twitter.

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" <bruni...@usna.edu>
Sent: 28-Feb-18 6:06:00 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Clean energy charging?

>Finally after years of lobbying, I got Green Car Reports to address the
>issue of what energy is used to charge EV's.  They continue to tar all
>EV driver's charging based only on the published GRID-MIX and refuse to
>accept the idea that most clean car buyers also buy clean energy.
>
>They finally agreed to do a poll.  Please take this poll and show 'em!
>
>https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115485_if-you-own-an-electric-car
>-wh ats-your-at-home-charging-source-take-our-twitter-poll
>
>
>Bob
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>

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[EVDL] EV Clean energy charging?

2018-02-28 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Finally after years of lobbying, I got Green Car Reports to address the
issue of what energy is used to charge EV's.  They continue to tar all EV
driver's charging based only on the published GRID-MIX and refuse to
accept the idea that most clean car buyers also buy clean energy.

They finally agreed to do a poll.  Please take this poll and show 'em!

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115485_if-you-own-an-electric-car-wh
ats-your-at-home-charging-source-take-our-twitter-poll


Bob
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[EVDL] FW: phev qusetion ; 240V cord

2018-02-13 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
This cord on Amizon says it can do both 240 and 120.  It appears to have a
short extension cord that takes the 240v 20A plug on the EVSE and converts
it to a 120v 20 amp plug.  But it is impossible to see from the photo since
the view of the plug that should be the 120v 20A plug could be upside down
or right side up.  And that makes all the difference in the two blades?



https://www.amazon.com/100-240V-Portable-Electric-Charging-Compatible/dp/B075GJK2S9/ref=sr_1_6?s=automotive=UTF8=1518492767=1-6=240v+evse=41%252B4h6qYHEL=_SY300_QL70_=srch



bob
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: e-NV200 campervan on 3week road.nz trial

2018-02-10 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Any pictures of how the campervan deploys?  Or do they climb on top and
sleep in a tent?

BOb


On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 9:49 PM, George Tyler via EV 
wrote:

> I saw it! at the charging station in Cambridge  NZ, opposite the town
> hall, which is the nearest town to me. Green "Jucy" van, very small for a
> campervan.
>
>
>
> On 09-Feb-18 6:46 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
>>
>> http://gisborneherald.co.nz/autowatch/3198473-135/electric-
>> campervan-on-three-week-road-trial
>> Electric campervan on three-week road trial
>> January 30, 2018
>>
>> [image
>> http://gisborneherald.co.nz/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.st
>> reams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=tDfPQWV5W041asN0GaqmB8$daE2
>> N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtoeklmNgbvvdITzUbbR6UaWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe
>> 2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh7
>> 0Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-=image/jpeg
>> ]
>>
>> International tourists visiting New Zealand could be hitting the roads in
>> electric campervans within two years if a new electric vehicle trial
>> proves
>> successful.
>>
>> Auckland-based company Jucy Rentals will trial a full-electric Nissan
>> E-NV200 campervan with the help of two overseas tourists.
>>
>> During their journey, two visiting French students will travel thousands
>> of
>> kilometres throughout the North Island in a prototype Jucy campervan,
>> powered only by electricity.
>>
>> The tourists plan to visit about 30 destinations in the North Island over
>> three-weeks.
>>
>> Jucy CEO Tim Alpe says the company aims to introduce a new category of
>> electric vehicle to its fleet to meet growing demand from millennial
>> tourists.
>>
>> “Electric vehicles are the future of the Jucy campervan fleet and this
>> trial
>> is the ideal platform to test our product offering for customers.
>>
>> “This market segment in particular wants more environmentally-sustainable
>> travel options. At the same time this gives our tourists more choice and
>> cheaper running costs.”
>>
>> Alpe says further expansion of the programme will need additional
>> investment
>> in charging infrastructure and vehicles that can travel further distances.
>>
>> “Campervans are the perfect vehicle to be electrically powered as tourists
>> tend to drive during the day and can then recharge overnight at their
>> campground.
>>
>> “One of the biggest barriers we will face in the short term is lack of
>> infrastructure to support EV charging.
>>
>> “We are working with camping grounds to introduce suitable facilities for
>> overnight charging but there is also a need to bring in rapid chargers on
>> the roads between main centres.
>>
>> “At the same time, there are range limitations of the vehicles that need
>> to
>> be overcome to ensure tourists can travel long distances across the
>> country,
>> without the need to constantly recharge their battery.
>>
>> “Our future as a sustainable tourist market will be short-lived if our
>> customer experience is impacted by the range their vehicle can travel each
>> day.”
>>
>> The company plans to introduce charging stations at their branches and
>> hotels across NZ and Australia. -Driven
>> [© gisborneherald.co.nz]
>>
>>
>>
>> +
>> https://www.tahawultech.com/news/electric-vehicle-road-trip/
>> Electric car road trip crosses UAE finish line
>> January 28, 2018  Global EVRT has concluded its nine-day road trip across
>> the UAE and Oman, in a bid to accelerate electric vehicle adoption across
>> the Middle East. The trip, which featured a fleet of cars including
>> Chevrolet Bolt EVs, a BMW i3 and Tesla X and S models, saw the opening of
>> numerous new electric vehicle charging stations ...
>>
>>
>> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/condos-grappling
>> -with-demand-for-electric-car-charging-stations/article37871983/
>> Condos grappling with demand for electric car charging stations
>> 20180208  For condo-hunting Jean Guilbault, there was one feature in
>> particular that any building absolutely had to offer if it was to make the
>> grade: a charging station for …
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>>   http://evdl.org/archive/
>>
>>
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>>
>>
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[EVDL] Fast Charging... (Flywheel?)

2018-02-07 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115199_what-electric-car-charging-will-satisfy-a-mass-market-twitter-poll-results

I wonder how big a flywheel is needed to store the energy to charge a 250
mile range in 20 minutes?
Since it is fixed, and does not have to be in a vehicle, it might be the
answer to large charging stations.

When ten TESLAs pull up at ten fast charge cords at the same time, that is
over a megawatt of needed power... in 20 minutes...

Bob
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[EVDL] Any Government Employee charging under the FAST act?

2018-01-27 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Does anyone know of any agency that has implemented the Federal FAST act
which enrcourages agencies to allow 120v EV charging for employees for a $6
bi-weekly payment?

Its in the law, yet my agnecy wont do it unitl they can find some other
agency that has done it first?

Bob, WB4aPR
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[EVDL] Fwd: EV lap blanket

2018-01-15 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Its 26F outside and I just remembered to take my 12v electric lap blanket I
got for Xmas with me.

It made my lap as warm on the top as from the heated seat from the bottom.

The blanket is $20 or so from Walmart and I like it.

It is made to pretty much cover the legs, lap and torso of a passenger, but
I left mine folded over in to a quarter (4 layers of heating wires) which
then fits nicely on just my lap.  (and got 4 times as warm).

A few minutes Into the 15 minute trip, I was very comfy.

Every EV ownwer should get one of these.  The VOLT convenience outlet on
the dash shuts off with the Ignition, so I can just leave it plugged in and
always on.

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Prius pickup anyone? and RV Extension?

2018-01-08 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
And I had to fight Maryland State inspections.  They failed it on about a
dozen counts..
I hit the roof and showed them in the LAW that I was compliant on every one
of those p oints.
Duh, I read the law and built to conform.

THe cheif state inspector said, "well that is just the way we do it".  ANd
I said, ok, lets go see the Governor!

Apparently they have been making up their own rules and interpretiations of
the rules much narrower than they are actually written.
THey backed down and passed it.

IE, in Maryland a wood bumper is allowed by law.  Must be 3" thick of
hardwood.  Mine was laminated from 4 layers of 3/4" Oak from old pallets.
They wanted solid, but I said that laminated wood layers is stronger than
solid.  ANd had the engineering proof...  passed... etc...

Bob


On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:29 PM, Gail Lucas via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Bob, your woodwork on the Prius is beautiful. I have never seen anything
> like that.
>
> Gail
>
>
> On 1/8/2018 8:13 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
>> Do it!
>>
>> All of my Prius are salvage.  I fixed 'em with wood and solar panels,
>> since I cant do body work in metal:
>> Photos of black one, gold one and white one scattered over this page:
>>
>> http://aprs.org/Truck-e.html
>>
>> And now my dream is a BOLT with camper extension... Remove hatch, and
>> attach a two-caster-wheel trailer with dual rigid mounting points.  The
>> bed and wheels are one piece and the roof and sides attach to the removed
>> HATCH hinges.  Then the top and bottom overlap and can slide so that the
>> whole car/trailer is one aerodynamic teardrop shape for minimum drag.
>>
>> And when you stop, the teardrop clamshell opens to a full height trailer
>> in the back with expanding canvas sides...
>>
>> Someday...
>>
>> Bob, WB4APR
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Prius pickup anyone? and RV Extension?

2018-01-08 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Do it!

All of my Prius are salvage.  I fixed 'em with wood and solar panels,
since I cant do body work in metal:
Photos of black one, gold one and white one scattered over this page:

http://aprs.org/Truck-e.html

And now my dream is a BOLT with camper extension... Remove hatch, and
attach a two-caster-wheel trailer with dual rigid mounting points.  The
bed and wheels are one piece and the roof and sides attach to the removed
HATCH hinges.  Then the top and bottom overlap and can slide so that the
whole car/trailer is one aerodynamic teardrop shape for minimum drag.

And when you stop, the teardrop clamshell opens to a full height trailer
in the back with expanding canvas sides...

Someday...

Bob, WB4APR


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Chapman via
EV
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 11:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: David Chapman 
Subject: [EVDL] Prius pickup anyone?

I have a 2014 Prius hatchback that ended up the creme filling in a
California freeway Oreo, IE: it got hit hard in the rear and driven into
the vehicle in front. Looks like the insurance company is going to total
it as the right rear quarter panel was driven forward enough to make the
right rear door stick and the rear panel in front of the bumper is toast.
Rear damage otherwise is bolt on stuff like bumper and right tail light.
Front damage is mostly just the bumper cover, radiator and core support.
No airbag deployment. Car was in beautiful condition and only has 35K on
it and still runs and drives fine. Depending on what the insurance company
wants for the buy back I was thinking of fixing it but while looking at it
the thought crossed my mind that it might be cool just to lop off the back
behind the front doors and make a light duty pickup out of it. Anyone else
done anything like this and might have suggestions as to what kind of a
little mini truck bed might work? Or suggestion  s where I might source
crash parts for this mess? Rock Auto has the radiator and the bumper bits
but not much for the rear panels I would need if I fix it back to
original. Dach.
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