Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Gen 1 Leafs may make good candidates for battery pack retrofits IF someone
figures out how to keep the car happy with the replacement pack using
better cells with higher energy density.

Compared to traditional ICE conversions...a lot of useful hardware is
already in place, but using that hardware means keeping OEM control
electronics happy, possibly via simulated inputs.

Leaf cars are pretty solid otherwise. (Well, IIRC, there are some reports
from ~2012/2013 in the Leaf forums of diodes failing in the onboard charger
when used with some early EVSEs that turned out to be incompatible.)


On Dec 12, 2018 20:28, "George Tyler via EV"  wrote:

I am thinking, it all depends on what is acceptable range? 50% loss over 5
years, so in a year it's 40%, 2 year 30%, so probably not worth paying
NZ$10k (US$6,600) for?


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie via EV
Sent: 13 December, 2018 11:39 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Willie
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc



On 12/12/18 4:33 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of spec
> capacity still considered usable?

There are a LOT of Leafs driving around with less than 50%.  Nissan
invariably tells the owners that it is normal and to be expected.

I haven't seen, or had direct knowledge of, a Tesla going below about
90%.  However, Tesla repairs/replaces a lot of batteries presumably
because of dead cells or other problems that the owners may not notice.
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[EVDL] clarify my points: auton EVs on NPR Fresh Air program ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

I don't have a lot of time to spend on a debate on this topic (usually I
just let people speak their minds, everyone is allowed an opinion). I have
to prep for upcoming thyroid surgery, and more failing eye sight
appointments (if I can't read nor type, I won't be able to post anymore -
time to pull my plug and make room/resources-available for the next human
generation). But, I will clarify my points:

David's reply leaves me to think he and I may not be talking about the same
item. The item I posted
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/NPR-Fresh-Air-EV-program-yesterday-tp4692114p4692118.html
 is not a full transcript of what was said on the .mp3 (audio) link
https://ondemand.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/fa/2018/12/20181210_fa_01.mp3
 the author's statements on the audio is what I disagree with.

The audio interview goes into greater detail of the author's
https://www.google.com/search?q=Samuel+I.+Schwartz
 comments in selling their book
https://www.google.com/search?q=No+One+at+the+Wheel
The author's statements:

-avs most disruptive since motor cars
 (NPR likes to use negative words, replace disruptive with change. Same as
rotary phones have changed to touch-tone, & change again to cell & tablets)

-fewer repair shops, car dealerships
(There will always be a need for auto repair shops, and dealerships. Not
everyone will want to give up owning or driving their own car, thus accident
repairs, maintenance, + will happen)

-safety (5min)
(NPR wording fears that the av will freeze-up/hang like an old MS-windows 95
pc. NPR is so backward, when it comes to vehicles or technology. They still
remember the old-days of the blue-screen-of-death, etc.)

-not sharing data with the public
(this is not true. All av players are sending out pr news-items I see
regularly of their progress, successes, issues, R status,+
I do not post much on auton because not many on the evdl are interested, nor
want to bother with self-driving cars. But I see plenty of data of how
quickly avs will be for sale.)

-the track record is not very good with avs (9min)
(not true, Tesla autopilot get too much coverage as an av when it isn't. But
waymo and other av tech companies are way ahead of Tesla and get nil
recognition of having a better auto ai, +)

-One av making multiple trips to serve a family (11min)
(the NPR rep incorrectly uses the example of one av driving the father to
work, returns home, then drives the lids to school, return, then drives the
mother to work, returns just to sit idle for hours. IMO 1 car in a family is
ridiculous. It will be at least 2. Currently, ice sit in their work parking
for many hours each day, but NPR is not saying that is bad. All this NPR
wording is wack/slanted.

-avs will be smaller (16min)
(cars will stay the SUV width with lots of interior space. So avs will not
shrink, especially if avs are going to be used as ride share to make money
while not in use by the owner. i.e.: user you expensive av with Uber when
you are at work, etc)

-making lanes narrower (17min)
(when humans and avs share a hwy, the lanes have to stay the same lane
width. Humans do not follow the rules, even when not drunk or high)

- NPR rep sez: I'm ending this interview so conflicted (18min)
(after 18min of the 35+min interview, it was no longer about avs so nothing
that would relate to EVs ... )


As I said NPR has a long history of pumping out negative EV items. A search
of the evdl archive on  NPR
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page=413529=Negative+NPR+Story=36
 brings up items where the NPR links are now dead (media outlets do not keep
old pages around forever). But, below are a few active ones:


https://www.npr.org/2011/11/21/142464818/can-electric-cars-help-automakers-reach-55-mpg
November 21, 2011
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVangelism-tp4092072p4092683.html
I heard a story on NPR this morning that was pretty negative on EVs: ...
Nov 21, 2011
]


https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124012917
February 23, 2010
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-seva-NPR-Lithium-battery-glut-tp1567774.html
Feb 24, 2010]


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130433987
October 12, 2010
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/2nd-Part-of-NPR-s-EV-Horror-Story-tp2992193.html
Oct 12, 2010 ... I am actually an NPR Junkie ... But I sure don't like the
SLANT this reporter puts on her EV Experience...  It's probably the SLANT
that a perspective EV buyer with a strong does of Pessimism would put on it
all... One which would never buy or lease an EV anyway
]


I did find a less negative NPR item, some might enjoy going  back to the
old-days: 

https://www.marketplace.org/2007/12/06/business/electric-car-you-already-have-one
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/npr-EV-story-tp423984.html
npr EV story

Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[George Tyler via EV]

I am thinking, it all depends on what is acceptable range? 50% loss over 5
years, so in a year it's 40%, 2 year 30%, so probably not worth paying
NZ$10k (US$6,600) for?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie via EV
Sent: 13 December, 2018 11:39 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Willie
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc



On 12/12/18 4:33 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of spec
> capacity still considered usable?

There are a LOT of Leafs driving around with less than 50%.  Nissan 
invariably tells the owners that it is normal and to be expected.

I haven't seen, or had direct knowledge of, a Tesla going below about 
90%.  However, Tesla repairs/replaces a lot of batteries presumably 
because of dead cells or other problems that the owners may not notice.
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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[Peri Hartman via EV]

It really is 31 miles at 75% capacity. When new, it got about 50 miles 
during winter, about 75 in summer (no where close to 90). Look at my 
previous posts "poor 2011 Leaf performance", snip included here:


Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
9 capacity bars)
Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).

45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
range.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 12-Dec-18 2:46:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc




On 12/12/18 4:37 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
According to Nissan, 9 out of 12 capacity bars is still a properly 
functioning battery, which is somewhere near 68%. I get about 30 miles 
range in winter with that. You may disagree with Nissan :)


9/12 SHOULD indicate 75%.

I contend that Nissan uses "bars" instead of a linear or honest measure 
for obfuscation.  To hide the real situation from owners.  My 
experience was that a 2011 Leaf could be driven about 90 miles in good 
conditions. I suspect 30 miles in winter is 50% or less.

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Re: [EVDL] EVSE.uk to ban pih> cheap onboard-3kWh-rechargers too-slow

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Willie via EV wrote:

> > https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105449/ban-plug-in-hybrids-from
> > -ev-charging-bays-say-experts Ban plug-in hybrids from EV charging
> > bays, say experts 10 Dec, 2018  Tristan Shale-Hester
> 
> I was hoping some one would comment on this.  Can someone make sense of
> it for me?
> 
> They imply that 3kw level 2 charging interferes with 50kw level 3
> charging.  Of course, barring terrible parking space configurations,
> that is not possible in the USA.  Is it possible in UK?  Or Europe?

I'm guessing, but I think this situation is associated with the combined 
charging system (CCS) connector:



Basically, it is possible for a charging station to support either ordinary 
Level 2 (AC) charging or Level 3 (DC) charging with a single charge cable and 
paddle.  I don't know if there are EVSEs that support both, or if only EVSEs 
that support one or the other are available even though the same connector 
would appear on both types.

Assuming that a CCS EVSE supports both Level 2 (AC) and Level 3 (DC) charging, 
then any vehicle (not just PIH) that is only capable of Level 2 (AC) charging 
might be seen as interfering with another vehicle's ability to use the EVSE's 
Level 3 (DC) capability since the (single) charge cord is then unavailable. 

While I tend to agree that an EV needs access to an EVSE with greater priority 
than a PIH (or so-called 'extended-range EV' ;^), since the EV cannot move 
without charge while the PIH can, trying to restrict access based on vehicle 
type or charger capability seems like a slippery slope to start down.  Do I get 
to unplug your 3kW-charger Leaf and plug my car in because my 6kW charger is 
able to utilize more of the EVSE's capability?  Can I unplug your PIH to plug 
in my EV, because I *need* a charge to get home while you want one "just" to 
avoid running the ICE?  What if I unplug your Tesla because you've got tons of 
battery capacity while my Leaf's much smaller capacity battery means I rely on 
being able to add a bit of charge before heading home? ;^>

Cheers,

Roger.

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[EVDL] Li-Ion versus Lead-Acid (was: Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Li-Ion batteries decline in capacity at a steady slow rate, until they 
eventually have zero capacity. Pretty much a flat curve. (Actually 
slightly concave. They decline slightly less per cycle as they age.)


Lead-acid batteries "fall off of a cliff" at their end of life. They 
rise slightly in capacity on the first few cycles, then steadily decline 
to about 3/4 of their rated capacity. After that, they are in a death 
spiral and fall to near zero capacity after a short while.


Big difference. This is why Li_ion EV packs have a promising secondary 
market. They are still fine, but simply have reduced capacity. Reduced 
range in a car, but useful for stationary applications or other 
applications where half the energy per kg is not a problem.


Makes for an interesting used car market. Only need to go half as far? 
Buy a used EV far a bargain. Retired folks that simply need to drive 
back and forth on short errands are a great market for EVs with "run 
out" batteries.


Also, replacement li-ion batteries are getting cheap. Approaching $100 
per kw-hr these days.


Bill D.


With a lead battery, 68% of factory specified capacity would be considered a
fully depreciated battery, ready for replacement.  Actually anything below
80% would be.

Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of spec
capacity still considered usable?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator



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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[Willie via EV]

On 12/12/18 4:37 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
According to Nissan, 9 out of 12 capacity bars is still a properly 
functioning battery, which is somewhere near 68%. I get about 30 miles 
range in winter with that. You may disagree with Nissan :)


9/12 SHOULD indicate 75%.

I contend that Nissan uses "bars" instead of a linear or honest measure 
for obfuscation.  To hide the real situation from owners.  My experience 
was that a 2011 Leaf could be driven about 90 miles in good conditions. 
I suspect 30 miles in winter is 50% or less.

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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[Willie via EV]

On 12/12/18 4:33 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:


Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of spec
capacity still considered usable?


There are a LOT of Leafs driving around with less than 50%.  Nissan 
invariably tells the owners that it is normal and to be expected.


I haven't seen, or had direct knowledge of, a Tesla going below about 
90%.  However, Tesla repairs/replaces a lot of batteries presumably 
because of dead cells or other problems that the owners may not notice.

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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[Peri Hartman via EV]

According to Nissan, 9 out of 12 capacity bars is still a properly 
functioning battery, which is somewhere near 68%. I get about 30 miles 
range in winter with that. You may disagree with Nissan :)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 12-Dec-18 2:33:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc


On 12 Dec 2018 at 13:18, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:


Essentially the percentage of capacity compared to new.
So 68% of 24kWh for a 2011-2015 or a 2016 S.
Or 68% of 30kWh for a 2016 SL or SV or a 2017 Leaf.


With a lead battery, 68% of factory specified capacity would be 
considered a
fully depreciated battery, ready for replacement.  Actually anything 
below

80% would be.

Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of 
spec

capacity still considered usable?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 12 Dec 2018 at 13:18, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> Essentially the percentage of capacity compared to new.
> So 68% of 24kWh for a 2011-2015 or a 2016 S. 
> Or 68% of 30kWh for a 2016 SL or SV or a 2017 Leaf.

With a lead battery, 68% of factory specified capacity would be considered a 
fully depreciated battery, ready for replacement.  Actually anything below 
80% would be. 

Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of spec 
capacity still considered usable?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[Cor van de Water via EV]

State of Health.
Essentially the percentage of capacity compared to new.
So 68% of 24kWh for a 2011-2015 or a 2016 S. 
Or 68% of 30kWh for a 2016 SL or SV or a 2017 Leaf.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: George Tyler via EV
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 12:55 PM
To: spk...@gmail.com; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Cc: George Tyler
Subject: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

Hi all, I am considering buying a used import from Japan Leaf, can someone 
please explain the terms they use for battery, they advertise like this: 
" 9 BARS, SOH 68% ", and some people talk about GID and Ah, I do understand 
electronics, but I don't know what they talking about in relation to battery 
capacity,  like, why is SOH not related to BARS, what does SOH stand for anyway?
Regards, George

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[EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[George Tyler via EV]

Hi all, I am considering buying a used import from Japan Leaf, can someone 
please explain the terms they use for battery, they advertise like this: 
" 9 BARS, SOH 68% ", and some people talk about GID and Ah, I do understand 
electronics, but I don't know what they talking about in relation to battery 
capacity,  like, why is SOH not related to BARS, what does SOH stand for anyway?
Regards, George

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Re: [EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

[Lee Hart via EV]

The fundamental problem with these coolers is that they don't actually 
provide much cooling. Air conditioners used to be rated in "tons", which 
meant the number of tons of ice it would take to provide the same 
cooling. A 12,000 BTU air conditioner running for one day (24 hours) 
provides about the same amount of cooling as 1 ton of ice.


Weight is very important in an airplane. It would be impractical to 
carry enough ice to provide cooling for the length of a typical 
several-hour flight.


Race car drivers use "cold suits" to keep cool without the need for air 
conditioners, which would add weight and decrease performance. 
Basically, they only cool the driver; nothing else! The suits have 
little plastic tubes laced through them. An ice chest has 5 lbs or so of 
ice, and a pump circulates the cold water through the suit. This is 
"good enough" for the short duration of a race. Maybe it would be good 
enough for pilots as well?


--
Ten Universal Truths for this holiday season:
 1. Show respect for others. Each person has a special gift.
 2. Share what you have. Giving makes you richer.
 3. Know who you are. You are a reflection of your family.
 4. Accept what life brings. There are many things you cannot control.
 5. Have patience. Some things cannot be rushed.
 6. Live carefully. What you do will come back to you.
 7. Take care of others. You cannot live without them.
 8. Honor your elders. They show you the way in life.
 9. Pray for guidance. Many things are not known.
10. See connections. All things are related.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

[Ron Porter via EV]

It reminds me of the a/c I put in the tiny cabin of my boat. 12v pump 
circulating lake water through an old heater assembly (heater core and squirrel 
cage fan in an enclosure). 
-- 
Ron

On December 12, 2018 12:13:58 p.m. CST, Sean Korb via EV  
wrote:
>You could make one with some discards.  A couple of Honda radiators
>would fit in a cooler of ice water and you could build the ducting
>with PVC.  I think you would need 2 to get the CFM  but math says to
>get the 2" radiator inlets to go to a 4 inch duct you would actually
>need 4 radiators.  Still, you can pick these up by weight and glue any
>holes shut since they won't be under more than 30psi of icewater and
>ambient pressure for the air.
>
>
>
>On 12/12/18, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>> I like the fact that the aircraft one doesn't add humidity to the
>air.
>> (Blowing air directly over the ice as in the video definitely
>> would...only useful in very dry climates.)
>>
>> Yes, they would both work with dry ice, but then you'd have to buy
>the
>> dry ice, and be careful to not close your windows or you may
>suffocate,
>> which may counteract the cooling effect.
>>
>> https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/health/dry-ice-death/index.html
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> On 12/12/18 7:13 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>> This is used on small aircraft.
>>>
>https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/arctic-air-portable-air-conditioner-52-qt-dual-fan-12-volt.html?utm_source=google_shopping=simple=596=3215423012_medium=cpc_campaign=Aircraft+Supplies=1o1=295428069985=c==g=Cj0KCQiAgMPgBRDDARIsAOh3uyI_4GkdUBSezWq4iv8sCXKvs336DhdquD1-3qEoeDga7UTDz7OzTLsaAiXUEALw_wcB
>>>
>>> This is someone's hack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbr_AvfPGkA
>>> Both would work in an EV. Might work with dry ice.  Lawrence Rhodes
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>-- 
>Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>'65 Suprang,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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Re: [EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

[Sean Korb via EV]

You could make one with some discards.  A couple of Honda radiators
would fit in a cooler of ice water and you could build the ducting
with PVC.  I think you would need 2 to get the CFM  but math says to
get the 2" radiator inlets to go to a 4 inch duct you would actually
need 4 radiators.  Still, you can pick these up by weight and glue any
holes shut since they won't be under more than 30psi of icewater and
ambient pressure for the air.



On 12/12/18, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> I like the fact that the aircraft one doesn't add humidity to the air.
> (Blowing air directly over the ice as in the video definitely
> would...only useful in very dry climates.)
>
> Yes, they would both work with dry ice, but then you'd have to buy the
> dry ice, and be careful to not close your windows or you may suffocate,
> which may counteract the cooling effect.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/health/dry-ice-death/index.html
>
> Jay
>
> On 12/12/18 7:13 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>> This is used on small aircraft.
>> https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/arctic-air-portable-air-conditioner-52-qt-dual-fan-12-volt.html?utm_source=google_shopping=simple=596=3215423012_medium=cpc_campaign=Aircraft+Supplies=1o1=295428069985=c==g=Cj0KCQiAgMPgBRDDARIsAOh3uyI_4GkdUBSezWq4iv8sCXKvs336DhdquD1-3qEoeDga7UTDz7OzTLsaAiXUEALw_wcB
>>
>> This is someone's hack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbr_AvfPGkA
>> Both would work in an EV. Might work with dry ice.  Lawrence Rhodes
>>
>>
>>
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>
>


-- 
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'65 Suprang,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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Re: [EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I did not know that planes had cigarette lighter sockets…
It sounds as if the ad was directly taken from a car and replaced car with 
plane and garage with hangar.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jay Summet via EV
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 9:47 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jay Summet
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

I like the fact that the aircraft one doesn't add humidity to the air. 
(Blowing air directly over the ice as in the video definitely 
would...only useful in very dry climates.)

Yes, they would both work with dry ice, but then you'd have to buy the 
dry ice, and be careful to not close your windows or you may suffocate, 
which may counteract the cooling effect.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/health/dry-ice-death/index.html

Jay

On 12/12/18 7:13 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> This is used on small aircraft.
> https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/arctic-air-portable-air-conditioner-52-qt-dual-fan-12-volt.html?utm_source=google_shopping=simple=596=3215423012_medium=cpc_campaign=Aircraft+Supplies=1o1=295428069985=c==g=Cj0KCQiAgMPgBRDDARIsAOh3uyI_4GkdUBSezWq4iv8sCXKvs336DhdquD1-3qEoeDga7UTDz7OzTLsaAiXUEALw_wcB
> 
> This is someone's hack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbr_AvfPGkA
> Both would work in an EV. Might work with dry ice.  Lawrence Rhodes
> 
> 
>
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Re: [EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

[Jay Summet via EV]

I like the fact that the aircraft one doesn't add humidity to the air. 
(Blowing air directly over the ice as in the video definitely 
would...only useful in very dry climates.)


Yes, they would both work with dry ice, but then you'd have to buy the 
dry ice, and be careful to not close your windows or you may suffocate, 
which may counteract the cooling effect.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/health/dry-ice-death/index.html

Jay

On 12/12/18 7:13 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

This is used on small aircraft.
https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/arctic-air-portable-air-conditioner-52-qt-dual-fan-12-volt.html?utm_source=google_shopping=simple=596=3215423012_medium=cpc_campaign=Aircraft+Supplies=1o1=295428069985=c==g=Cj0KCQiAgMPgBRDDARIsAOh3uyI_4GkdUBSezWq4iv8sCXKvs336DhdquD1-3qEoeDga7UTDz7OzTLsaAiXUEALw_wcB

This is someone's hack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbr_AvfPGkA
Both would work in an EV. Might work with dry ice.  Lawrence Rhodes


   
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Re: [EVDL] (junk,biased): auton EVs on NPR Fresh Air program ...

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Hi Bruce,

I mentioned this podcast because it is a side of "the future" that I had
not heard detailed before from someone who was/is intertwined with large
city transportation management (exCommissioner(?) of Transportation NYC).
Some of the things he brought out like limiting the flow of traffic into a
city while increasing outflow to ease gridlock (he evidently was the one
who coined the word).  He also discussed autonomous vehicles which will be
EVs and how society could/would likely react.  He also brought up why
millennials are not into the "car thing" and its effects on the car
industry.  He brought up things that made me want to think how I would
react or adjust to in the coming decades (if I live so long, etc.).  But it
is something that my kids will likely be experiencing and that is
important.  This is a guy in the midst of trying to adjust city living to
what will likely be visions of future transportation modes he sees coming
and that is important to anyone who will be part of future city
transportation.

Yeah, he could have been more PC.  Most everything we pontificate about the
future can be labeled to some degree BS.  And he's promoting his book... Meh

Personally, I take the good with the bad, sort things out, and try to do
better myself.



On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:47 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> While I thank Gail for the post, I disagree with Peter as IMO this is not
> accurate information.
>
> NPR has a very, very long-long history of not reporting EVs, nor vehicles
> correctly. They have no problem with interviewing bogus, biased people that
> pontificate their imagined fears.
>
> It is fraught with opinions (not facts), prejudicial thoughts and biases,
> making the time spent listing or reading their test transcript a waste of
> time. However, EVangels are going to run into the public who have
> heard/read
> this NPR and now parrot/repeat it as fact (when it isn't). So in that sense
> it is good for EVangels to know where it came from, thus how much more work
> they have ahead of them to undo this opinionated disinformation.
> Since many auton are going to be EVs, this will reflect badly on them.
>
> The audio .mp3 is 30+ minutes long, but I had to stop listening to it when
> the author spoke with 'people of color' (as if Caucasian whites were
> normal,
> etc.). IMO, there is a whole lot tainted/based-on-fear in that guy's
> thinking.
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] (junk,biased): auton EVs on NPR Fresh Air program ...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 12 Dec 2018 at 3:47, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> While I thank Gail for the post, I disagree with Peter as IMO this is not
> accurate information.

And I disagree with you.  

This is factual and cautionary reporting, NOT fearmongering.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] 600 dollar answer to a 3000 dollar problem.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

This is used on small aircraft.
https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/arctic-air-portable-air-conditioner-52-qt-dual-fan-12-volt.html?utm_source=google_shopping=simple=596=3215423012_medium=cpc_campaign=Aircraft+Supplies=1o1=295428069985=c==g=Cj0KCQiAgMPgBRDDARIsAOh3uyI_4GkdUBSezWq4iv8sCXKvs336DhdquD1-3qEoeDga7UTDz7OzTLsaAiXUEALw_wcB

This is someone's hack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbr_AvfPGkA
Both would work in an EV. Might work with dry ice.  Lawrence Rhodes


  
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[EVDL] Shame On You, CBS> 60min (Koch style) Musk interview: EVsOnTVs ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVsOnTVs-Musk-on-60-minutes-Sun-12-9-buy-idle-GM-plants-tp4692054.html
]

% IMO, 60 minutes butchered the Musk interview with a slant the Koch Bros
would have approved of %

https://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/ssIdFncaAvDxXuvWKfMbTXvSl1zbceDm/elon-musk-screen-time-ryan-speedo-green/
 60 Minutes
Elon Musk, Screen Time, Ryan Speedo Green |S51 E11| 44:11
Elon Musk opens up to Lesley Stahl about Twitter, pot, the Securities and
Exchange Commission, Model 3 and Tesla; then, a groundbreaking study
examines effects of screen time on kids; and, Ryan Speedo Green: From
juvenile delinquency to opera stardom ...


https://nypost.com/2018/12/11/elon-musk-rips-cbs-over-editing-of-60-minutes-interview/
Elon Musk rips CBS over editing of ‘60 Minutes’ interview
December 11, 2018 ... CBS did him wrong in its edits of the “60 Minutes”
interview that aired on Sunday night ... Musk and others close to Tesla have
been accusing CBS of leaving critical snippets on the cutting-room floor ...
“60 Minutes” also portrays Musk as more arrogant than he is ...
https://youtu.be/cRNypdYQoWk
...
https://www.foxbusiness.com/business-leaders/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-slams-cbs-for-misleading-edit-of-60-minutes-interview
Tesla CEO Elon Musk slams CBS for 'misleading' edit
of '60 Minutes' interview
Fox Business  13 hours ago
...
https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2018/12/11/elon-musk-piles-into-cbs-over-very-misleading-edit-to-comments-he-made-about-teslas-new-chair/23615174/
Elon Musk slams CBS over 'very misleading edit' to
comments he made about Tesla's new chair
AOL  20 hours ago
...
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/10/elon-musk-forced-to-defend-an-incredible-american-success-story-on-60-minutes-shame-on-you-cbs/
Elon Musk Forced To Defend “An Incredible American Success Story” On 60
Minutes — Shame On You, CBS
December 10th, 2018 - In doing so, we can uncover the methods that CBS used
to put Musk on the ... 60 Minutes, according to show's website, is “the most
successful ...
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=cbs+60+minutes+musk
 (+more)




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] (junk,biased): auton EVs on NPR Fresh Air program ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

While I thank Gail for the post, I disagree with Peter as IMO this is not
accurate information.

NPR has a very, very long-long history of not reporting EVs, nor vehicles
correctly. They have no problem with interviewing bogus, biased people that
pontificate their imagined fears.

It is fraught with opinions (not facts), prejudicial thoughts and biases,
making the time spent listing or reading their test transcript a waste of
time. However, EVangels are going to run into the public who have heard/read
this NPR and now parrot/repeat it as fact (when it isn't). So in that sense
it is good for EVangels to know where it came from, thus how much more work
they have ahead of them to undo this opinionated disinformation.
Since many auton are going to be EVs, this will reflect badly on them.

The audio .mp3 is 30+ minutes long, but I had to stop listening to it when
the author spoke with 'people of color' (as if Caucasian whites were normal,
etc.). IMO, there is a whole lot tainted/based-on-fear in that guy's
thinking.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] NPR pontificates: auton is scary , & imagined-changes

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/10/675254096/the-revolution-will-be-driverless-autonomous-cars-usher-in-big-changes
The Revolution Will Be Driverless: Autonomous Cars Usher In Big Changes
December 10, 2018  Terry Gross  Fresh Air

[image  
https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2018/12/10/gettyimages-1065947436_wide-2e451d9a1f4802083ac5f998d71449a3c6a9afd8-s800-c85.jpg
The BMW Vision iNEXT autonomous electric car is previewed at a special event
ahead of the LA Auto Show on Nov. 27  / 
Robyn Beck/AFP/Getty Images


audio
https://ondemand.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/fa/2018/12/20181210_fa_01.mp3
]

Imagine driving alone in your car, but instead of sitting behind the wheel,
you're dozing in the backseat as a computer navigates on your behalf. It
sounds wild, but former New York City Traffic Commissioner Sam Schwartz says
that scenario isn't so far off the mark.

"I was a New York City cab driver back in 1968, and I watched transportation
evolve over time. I have never seen anything as rapid as what has happened
this decade," Schwartz says. "Autonomous vehicles are coming."

While Schwartz doesn't know exactly what the autonomous vehicle of the
future will look like, he notes that it may not look anything like today's
cars. It might not have a steering wheel or brakes, he says: "It could be a
room any size; it could be a conference room."

Beyond aesthetic differences, Schwartz predicts that driverless cars will
transform roads, job and economies. He notes that while repair shops,
trucking companies and car dealerships may lose business, other industries —
including the advertising industry — stand to flourish with a captive,
backseat audience.
Article continues after this message from our sponsor

Schwartz examines the benefits and drawbacks of driverless cars in the book
No One at the Wheel.
Interview highlights

On how driverless cars might look different from the cars of today

There's no reason to think [a driverless car is] going to look like a car,
other than that's what we're used to.

I liken this a bit to the cellphone. In 1982, I was traffic commissioner. I
had one of the first cellphones that I could use during emergencies. And the
cellphone came — with a man carrying it — on a 12-volt battery and this huge
phone. And today, the cellphone of today doesn't look anything like the
cellphone that I had in 1982. ... The same thing can happen with cars. ...
There's no reason to think it's going to look like a car, other than that's
what we're used to.

On the broader impact of autonomous vehicles

I think everybody is expecting fewer drivers, and that's no surprise. But it
also means that there are probably going to be fewer repair shops. ... AVs
lend themselves to fleet operations, especially if they're going to be
offering rides, as opposed to selling maximum vehicles, so car dealerships
may disappear.

So this is going to have wide impacts. Truckers, of course, are going to be
impacted. ... But lots of industries will be affected. The insurance
industry, certainly, will be affected, since we will have fewer crashes, and
about a third of the insurance industry is based on crashes. And if we have
fewer crashes, there are going to be fewer cases in court. There'll be less
of a burden on the court system.

On automated safety features that exist in today's cars

I have a car, a 2017 Volvo, that will stop on its own if I'm not paying
attention and about to rear-end another car. There are features that will
let me know if I am leaving the lane. The car itself will tug and tell me
that I'm crossing a lane. And so if I'm drowsy, if I'm not paying attention
or if I had too much to drink — which I would never do — I would know that.
I know that there's a warning if there's a car in my blind spot and I'm
trying to change lanes.

On the safety record of autonomous vehicles

This is really an industry that has tons and tons of data, but they're not
sharing it with the public. The only data that's accessible is [from] the
state of California, which is reporting anytime there is a crash when a
vehicle is in autonomous mode, and so far the results are not good.

So far, we know of three deaths and not because of any [industry] reporting.
That's the media reporting of three deaths [related to cars driving] in
autonomous mode. For conventional cars, that would take 260 million miles
before that would occur. And here we have three deaths and AVs have driven
maybe 10 or 15 million miles.

Walmart To Test Self-Driving Cars For Grocery Pickup Service [
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/25/632257414/walmart-to-test-self-driving-cars-for-grocery-pickup-service
]

In California, which requires the reporting of crashes, the cars in
autonomous mode are crashing nine or 10 times more often than the
conventional cars. Will they solve a lot of that? Yes, they're going to.
They could solve a lot of the safety problems in the next few years.
Everybody could have automatic braking. Everybody could have a lane control
protections and could have blind 

[EVDL] Report from UK Motorcycle Live show

[Paul Compton via EV]

https://www.facebook.com/paul.blezard/posts/10156955611725850

-- 
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www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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[EVDL] (EVhistory) Swatchmobile>Smart EV: Smart Cabrio ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-CAD35k-funky-2seat-17-6kWh-EV-2019-Smart-Cabrio-L2-3kW-only-r-epa-101km-63mi-tp4692008p4692015.html
]

[This post is long. Old-timers note: I'm repeating myself (see previous
posts below) for the newer EV owners.]

As an old-oldtimer I have personal (I was there) experience following the
developmewnt of the Swatchmobile > Smart car.

% EVhistory: Way-way back (1990s) when I started finding EV items in paper
magazines (all media outlets were paper back then). I would find EV items in
the automotive magazines at hp's automotive dept. at the (now gone/defunct)
Sunnyvale-CA PTP site.

Back then hp flat bed scanners were new and their OCR 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_character_recognition
 software would convert 95% of the scanned image of text into ascii text (I
would manually fix the last 5%). Then I woul;d post them to the evdl
listserv (sorry, more than 60% of all my free EV work since 1990 has been
lost/ no longer on the evdl archive).

What paper auto magazine items that caught my attention were their interest
in the moose test of the then Swatchmobile(car) which later was name-changed
to the Smart car.

Back then, paper media had a tremendious grip on companies. Bad story items
would stay in print for years with no way to correct or counter them (vs
today, say something wrong and social media will immediately correct you
with a slam, hurting media outlets). So, back then auto comapnies were very
gun-shy of bad-press.

Smart was orginally trialed outside the U.S. as an EV. But was pulled when
European media outlets dissed the Smart EV with bad press. Later, Smart car
was re-trialed as an ice-version. It wasn't until later when the Smart ice
was well established that a Smart EV was tried again (see below for Smart
car items):
%


[dated]
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,980375,00.html
A Car, a Watch? Swatchmobile!
Mar. 28, 1994 ... Make way for the Swatchmobile, a sassy...
...
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/16/business/swatchmobile-in-us.html
Swatchmobile in U.S.
March 16, 1995 ... Mercedes-Benz A.G. plans to sell its compact Swatchmobile
in the United States. Mercedes has said the tiny two-seat car, to be
produced jointly with the Swiss fashion watch maker SMH, will be built in
France starting in 1997. "We will bring it to North America," said Michael
Bassermann, president of Mercedes-Benz North America Inc., in an interview
with Automotive News at the International Motor Show in Geneva ...
...
https://adage.com/article/news/swatchmobile-named-smart/15867/
Swatchmobile is named Smart
May 17, 1995  The minicar that will be jointly produced by German automaker
Mercedes-Benz and the maker of Swatch watches will be called Smart. The
two-seater, informally known as the Swatchmobile, will go into production in
October 1997 in France and will be marketed and sold through a new network
of franchises separate from Mercedes dealers. Mercedes holds 51% of the
venture, with 49% held by the Swiss Corporation for
Electronics-and-Watchmaking Industries Ltd., the originator of the Swatch
line of fashion watches. The car will sell for about $10,300 to $13,800 ...


https://www.economist.com/business/1998/05/07/a-new-kind-of-car-company
A new kind of car company - The Economist
https://www.economist.com/business/1998/05/07/a-new-kind-of-car-company
May 7, 1998 - The merger between Daimler and Chrysler, which was announced
on May 7th, ... in a “moose test”, and the upcoming wacky Smart car, which
is small enough to ...


https://www.automobilemag.com/news/smart-forfour/
2005 Smart ForFour - Road Test & Review
Dec 29, 2004 - All Smarts are small to American eyes, but whereas the
original Smart ForTwo looks freakishly small even in Europe, the ForFour is
a standard ...
https://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2004/12/0502_Forfourpl_Smart_Forfour-2005_Smart_ForFour-Passenger_Side_Front_View.jpg?interpolation=lanczos-none=around%7C765%3A510


Smart car inventor Nicolas Hayek dies | Autoweek
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/smart-car-inventor-nicolas-hayek-dies
Jun 29, 2010 - Nicolas Hayek, the engineer and industrialist who founded the
Swiss watch company Swatch and brought the world the Smart car, died on ...


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Toronto-Hydro-seeking-volunteers-for-4yr-Smart-EV-drive-lease-tp3073046.html
Toronto Hydro seeking volunteers for 4yr Smart-EV drive-lease
Dec 05, 2010 ... 2-seat Mercedes-Benz “Smart fortwo” car ... If cars are
charged up overnight ... they’ll be using power from ... power stations,
which have spare capacity ... 


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Smart-EVs-tp3258145p3766133.html
EVLN: Smart Introduces Smart EV gen3
Aug 24, 2011 ...  Smart, which first started producing its iconic city cars
in 1998 and has built a strong following in congested cities around the
world ...