[EVDL] UCD's EV co$t comparison calculator tool is not that great ...
[ref http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-UCDavis-EV-Explorer-shows-how-a-Plug-in-Save-You-Money-td4670803.html EVLN: UCDavis' EV-Explorer shows how a Plug-in Save$ You Money ] Summary: Again a supposed tool for the public to use that has errors at best, and was not written by/for plugin drivers living in the real world. When you bring up their web site http://gis.its.ucdavis.edu/evexplorer/ It first asks for a starting point (city, state or zip code), then for the destination. It comes up with some figures based on their assumptions of what vehicle you would want. But what public EVSE at what cost any where along the commute route, what vehicle you can afford, and options to not charge at level2 but level3 where not considered. Different parts of the U.S. have different amounts, types and brands of EVSE (different EVSE brands with the same capabilities will cost differently, eVgo vs Blink, etc.). My first pass at using this tool was to consider a person working in Silicon Valley (Palo Alto, CA), and 96mi commute from the coast (lives in Aptos, CA) http://goo.gl/maps/2TDOq I chose this route not so much as typical but as one example (other scenarios will vary everything: SF or East-bay to Silicon Valley, etc.). By expanding the Annual Vehicle Energy Costs box and selecting the Car Manager button, I also changed out all the preselected vehicles to ones that a better paid Silicon Valley person could likely afford (what 2014 models they might compare). I chose (in order of their purchase price): -2014 Prius hev 50mpg -2014 iMiev EV, selected 8hour/3kW L2 charging -2014 Leaf EV, selected 4hour/6kW L2 charging -2014 I3 EV (not the pih), selected 4hour/6kW L2 charging I purposely did not choose a Tesla because not everyone can afford one, and even their lowest cost trim could easily do the commute without ever needing a charge. When I played around with the L2 EVSE cost$, some curious errors showed up. When I set the cost of the L2 charging to free (blank), the 5day/week commute costs were: -$1897 Prius hev -$525 iMiev EV -$525 Leaf EV -$425 I3 EV !Hang-on! ? How is it possible that the i3 EV costs less than the other two EVs if the cost of charging is free? I am not going to claim they have a built-in bias for the i3, but something is wrong there. When trying to know what price/gal cost the tool uses for the gasoline the Prius used: 96mi-roundtrip-commute*5days*52weeks= 24960mi/year 24960mi/55mpg= 453.82 gallons of gas $1897/453.82gal= $4.18/gal which is close to a Palo Alto, CA price for regular gas http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/map_gas_prices.aspx?z=11lat=37.425849long=-122.147584sid=2330ft=A But nearer to the driver's Aptos, CA home and on the driver's route, they can stop off at Freedom and get it for $3.69/gal http://www.californiagasprices.com/map_gas_prices.aspx?z=11lat=36.940418long=-121.769323sid=164053ft=A Using plugshare.com I found both the typical L2 cost per hour ($1, from either eVgo/NRG's or Blink/CCG's payment plans http://www.nrgevgo.com/san-francisco-bay-area/ https://getsatisfaction.com/blink/topics/blink_dc_fast_charger_fees There are other EVSe brands and cheaper plans to use, but I chose these as an example). When I set the cost of L2 charging to $1/hr, the costs were: -$1897 Prius @ $4.18/gal -$2085 iMiev -$1305 Leaf -$1252 I3 Again the i3 EV was shown as costing less, even though the range of each is very close (Leaf 84mi vs i3 81mi). If anything the i3 EV's commute cost should be a hair more costly. UCD's calculator does not let the driver compare if they were to use L3 EVSE. Perhaps they assume it is less likely for the driver to have the vast amount of L3 that Silicon Valley has. But many production EV driver use L3 on a daily basis. -Trying to figure L3 costs- Commuting from Aptos (on the Pacific coast) to Palo Alto (up over the Santa Cruz Mountains, down into the valley toward the S. SF Bay using major highways) is enough of a chore in its self, and the driver is likely will to use L3 EVSE to save time. On that commute I would likely use: http://www.plugshare.com/?location=45217 eVgo @Whole Foods or http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/7346 Blink @Library At a $0.10 per minute L3 Quick charge plan, and taking about 15 minutes to charge (packs were likely not totally drained/empty), that would cost about $1.50 per L3 charge. That seems low, when other L3 cost $7 a pop. I will use $7. To try to use this sites' calculator, I have to translate the $7 cost to a 4 hour L2 cost ($7/4= ) $1.75/hr@L2. When I set the cost of L2 charging to $1.75/hr, the costs were: -$1897 Prius @ $4.18/gal -$3255 iMiev -$1890 Leaf -$1837 I3 The i3 cost still seems wrong. The last two EVs with about the same range, and the i3 costs less to commute even when the charging is free? With both CA OR states the focus of automakers so that they can garner credits toward selling their ice in those states, those automakers are offering their
Re: [EVDL] As an aid when recommending an EV to someone else,
Frankly, I don't bother too much with numbers for folks. I just tell them that EVs need speed governors to tone down the acceleration. People get the message. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 4, 2014, at 7:20 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Don't forget another important time-and-distance metric: time to go 1/4 mile. The street-legal White Zombie's 10.24 quarter mile should more than counter any snickers about EVs being golf carts for old farts. Yes, EVs are vital for stemming the tide of resource exhaustion and pollution, but they're also poised to dominate racing applications. And wouldn't you rather see races be electric -- _and_ see those races convince testosterone-poisoned teenagers to go electric, too? b On Aug 2, 2014, at 10:44 PM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: One question that a potential EV car buyer always asks is Just how far it will take me before another charge is needed? Perhaps we should have another computation available, as comparison, for each vehicle: Cost to drive 40 miles (Average daily commute.) (Dollars per mile.) Time to drive 1,000 miles? Cost for all fuel consumed? Time to drive 2,000 miles ? Cost? Time to drive 3,000 miles ? Cost? Distance drivable in eight hours? Cost? Distance drivable in 16 hours ? Cost ? Footnote: assuming 65 mph average speed and stops as needed for charging or refueling. Not including driver's breaks for food and necessary stops... Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140803/11daf569/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
The increase rpm of a motor may happen while not pressing on the accelerator, is when I coasting down a hill with the transmission in gear. When I was working, my daily trip was a 10.4 miles around trip to work each day. The road was a roller coaster type which has a 3 mile mild up slope and than a very steep 2 miles at the end of the hill. This was with a battery pack that weigh 3000 lbs of 300 ah batteries charge up to 252 volts. I could get up to 70 mph on the gentile roller coaster 3 mile approach to the last 2 miles, and maintain the same accelerator pressure up this hill which would slow to 35 mph which was the right speed to inner the exit. Coming down this hill, I allow the motor to get up to 6000 rpm going down the first 2 miles getting up to 85 mph which develops enough inertial to propelled the EV for the next 3 miles right into my garage without any additional power from the motor controller. Roland - Original Message - From: EVDL Administrator via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 3:25 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/73bb8054/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On 5 Aug 2014 at 5:54, Chris Meier via EV wrote: The indoor units come in various shapes/styles, including 'cassette' for in_ceiling or air duct. Some of the dealers may appreciate the challenge. Give one a call. I hope your dealers are more experienced and flexible than the ones I worked with here. :-( I would question about road vibrations on a unit designed for a building/static setting. And there is a minimum refrigerant line length. Ditto on the vibration. I hadn't thought of that. I was aware of the max line length, though it should be ample for any car. I didn't know about a minimum. That could be a problem. Overseas I often see the outdoor units installed on siding brackets, just outside the hotel room or apartment they're cooling (usually lower than the indoor unit). Maybe the minimum lineset length varies with the brand. I do know that you usually have to adjust the factory refrigerant charge for different lineset lengths. If someone tries a mini-split in an EV, I hope he posts the results here. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 5, 2014, at 2:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. Bill said that the 8000 redline was a limitation of the (Curtis 1239-8501) controllers, and not a mechanical limit of the motor itself. He suggested that the controller might or might not behave gracefully if the motor was spun past 8000 RPM, but that there's no problem in having a powered-down motor and controller spin faster. Still, the math works out such that a roughly 5.7:1 overall gear ratio for the electric motors puts the 5000 RPM peak of the power and torque curves right at 65 mph with a top speed of about 105 mph at 8000 RPM. I'm having an hard time imagining wanting to go that fast any time soon. If I ever want to go faster, at that point I can worry about changing gearing, or getting fancy with GEVCU, or upgrading controllers or motors or whatever other expensive or insane option catches my fancy. I was more interested in the question in terms of targeting an even lower gear ratio; what if that 8000 RPM were at, say, 70 mph, putting the motor's entire RPM range within almost all daily driving conditions -- and then I wanted to do a cross-country trip on some roads with 85 mph limits? Would spinning the motors to 10,000 RPM or more be a problem if I was in all-V8 mode? But that would mean that the motors would be well past their optimum 5000 RPM on the freeway at 65 mph. For a car meant primarily for surface streets with little intention of freeway driving -- the typical urban subcompact, say -- that gearing would be ideal...but not for something in a sprawling Western metropolis where you can drive over 70 miles in a straight line on the freeway and still be in the same metropolitan area (Apache Junction to Buckeye). Again, in my case, the electric motors will be mostly powered down for that sort of extended freeway driving, but there're still plenty of shorter trips where the freeway makes sense for all-electric mode...and why spin the motors so fast for no good reason anyway? The next challenge for me is going to be to pick ideal gearing for the V8. Since the electric motors are going to have all kinds of torque from zero to 65, I'm thinking this is going to be a somewhat unusual situation for a daily driver where it'll make sense to optimize the V8 not for low-end torque but for high-end power and torque -- taller gearing than one would otherwise recommend. That's also going to carry over to decisions for the rebuild of the V8 itself -- heads, intake, exhaust, all that stuff. The more I think about it, the more I'm surprised that this type of hybrid isn't already popular in the racing world. Use electric motors for low-end torque, and ICE engines for high-end power, each optimized for its own part of the spectrum. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/8d66f4c9/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] UCD's EV co$t comparison calculator tool is not that great ...
. On that commute I would likely use:
http://www.plugshare.com/?location=45217
eVgo @Whole Foods
or
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/7346
Blink @Library
At a $0.10 per minute L3 Quick charge plan, and taking about 15 minutes to
charge (packs were likely not totally drained/empty), that would cost about
$1.50 per L3 charge. That seems low, when other L3 cost $7 a pop. I will
use
$7. To try to use this sites' calculator, I have to translate the $7 cost
to
a 4 hour L2 cost ($7/4= ) $1.75/hr@L2.
When I set the cost of L2 charging to $1.75/hr, the costs were:
-$1897 Prius @ $4.18/gal
-$3255 iMiev
-$1890 Leaf
-$1837 I3
The i3 cost still seems wrong. The last two EVs with about the same range,
and the i3 costs less to commute even when the charging is free?
With both CA OR states the focus of automakers so that they can garner
credits toward selling their ice in those states, those automakers are
offering their EVs at low prices there.
So, I decided to do another scenario of about the same commute but of a
driver living near Talent, OR who works 86 miles south in Yreaka, CA
http://goo.gl/maps/plBmy
I also changed out the vehicles to ones that a less paid N. CA person could
likely afford . I chose (in order of their purchase price):
-2004 Prius (a cheaper used) hev 44mpg
-2014 Fiat 500e EV with 4hour/6kW L2 charging
-2014 Smart Fortwo EV with 4hour/6kW L2 charging
-2014 Chevy Spark EV with 7hour/3kW L2 charging
There aren't any formal public j1772 EVSE in Yreaka, CA but there are three
RV park locations. One of them asks for $8 to access their 14-50 50A outlet
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/16339
Oak Ridge
Again, the website is not set up for the real world, and does not allow for
a one-cost per whole charge. It only allows for either cost per hour or per
kW.
So, I do a double manual calculation to be able to use the website's tool.
For the two 4hour charging EVs ($8/4hours= ) I can enter in $2/hour. For
the
7 hour EV ($8/7hours= ) I can enter in $1.15/hour.
-$1891 2004 Prius (a cheaper used) hev
-$2025 2014 Fiat 500e EV with 4hour/6kW L2 charging @ $2/hr
-$2593 2014 Smart Fortwo EV with 4hour/6kW L2 charging @ $2/hr
-$1645 2014 Chevy Spark EV with 7hour/3kW L2 charging @ $1.15/hr
There is again something wrong with the results. Why would a Spark cost
less?
When trying to know what price/gal cost the tool uses for the gasoline the
older Prius used:
86mi-roundtrip-commute*5days*52weeks= 22360mi/year
22360mi/44mpg= 508.18 gallons of gas
$1891/508.18gal= $3.72/gal
which is close to a Ashland, OR price for regular gas
http://www.medfordgasprices.com/map_gas_prices.aspx?z=11lat=42.185078long=-122.667525sid=84225ft=A
But at the driver's work site in Yreaka, CA it is $3.95/gal
http://www.californiagasprices.com/Yreka/index.aspx
Besides the errors/flaws I have pointed out above, it is also pretty clear
that costs of hev/ice maintenance, smogging, etc. were not factored in.
Also, the cost of electricity vary, so what it will cost to charge at home
does not seem to be factored in as well.
No one seems to have a useful tool that encompasses a more fair and
balanced
comparison.
I ask evdl members to give it a try where they live stating what vehicles
they chose, the cost of charging, electricity at home and chemical-fuel
where they are.
As always, comments, corrections, and views are welcome.
(fcv lobbyists/trolls/thugs need-Not respond, and please follow the evdl
charter).
For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=evlnsort=date
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-UCDavis-EV-Explorer-shows-how-a-Plug-in-Save-You-Money-tp4670803p4670817.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/bddca2d4/attachment.htm
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: UCDavis' EV-Explorer shows how a Plug-in Save$ You Money
Here's another tool. http://www.viamotors.com/vehicles/quote-request/ Sent from my iPhone On Aug 4, 2014, at 12:14 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Are you driving the right car for an oil crisis? http://earthtechling.com/2014/07/will-a-plug-in-electric-vehicle-save-you-money/ Will a Plug-in Electric Vehicle Save You Money? July 29, 2014 Ladies and gentlemen: Start your chargers! Wondering whether a plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) could save you money? Check out the UC Davis [EV Explorer], a cutting edge web-based tool that helps consumers see if a plug-in electric vehicle is right for them. Designed by the team at Plug-in Hybrid and Electric Vehicle Research Center (PHEV) of the Institute of Transportation Studies at the University of California Davis (ITS-Davis), EV Explorer allows consumers to compare simultaneously up to four different vehicles on an energy cost basis. Just enter your start and finish commute locations and frequency of travel, and the yearly energy costs for the four vehicles will instantly appear side-by-side. You can even specify the location of a public charging station you use and its charging price to get an accurate cost for public charger use. Moreover, the user-friendly EV Explorer also works with all types of vehicles—PEVs, hybrids, and traditional gasoline vehicles. With the tool, you can calculate the annual gasoline and electricity fuel costs of your commute or other travel in an easy-to-use chart that you can share with your friends. To date, most products developed by the PHEV Research Center have been for use by researchers and in scientific applications. But here at ITS-Davis we’ve enjoyed creating a tool that’s useful for everyone, and even learned a few truths about plug-ins ourselves. For example, the exact distance at which my older model hybrid Honda Insight actually beats a PEV is useful for examining my own vehicle needs. Since my commute was so short, I wanted to look at longer trips, a very easy process in the EV Explorer. I just dragged the blue marker to a new destination and changed the frequency. EV Explorer inputs are endlessly customizable, designed to fit your charging and driving profile. You can personalize your inputs by: Selecting the vehicles you would like to compare from any of the more than 34,000 available in thefueleconomy.gov database Changing the frequency of travel Dragging the destination m ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. PS. added a new You Tube Link (Below) Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/05c618f3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Lawrence Harris wrote: Keep in mind that if you have just gone up a long hill the motor and commutator will be hot and over-speeding it on the downhill run may still damage it even though the current is now low (or zero). I think it's probably best to keep the RPM in the safe range under the worst conditions rather than risk the expense of a damaged motor. Dennis Miles wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And, bear in mind that the original poster is considering the AC-51 motor, which is AC, not brushed DC, and so has no commutator to worry about. If I were the OP, I'd still want HPEVS to provide some max safe RPM value, not just a verbal statement that the 8000RPM limit is a controller limitation and not a limitation of the motor. Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Ben Goren wrote: The AC-51s use 6207-2RS bearings; my main job is to research their side loading capacity. However, Bill says there're a number of side-loaded AC- 35s out there, and that he thinks I'm probably okay -- though, of course, I need to confirm that. If anybody can suggest a good way to put some numbers to that, I'd appreciate it. Not sure if it helps, but here is a specific example of a pair of HPEVs AC-31s installed in a side-loaded arrangement: http://evalbum.com/4283 You can see more details of the torque combiner unit on John's (the owner's) site: http://www.signaturerenewables.com/component.php His torque combiner uses a 2:1 ratio belt drive to connect the two motors to a common output, and you might just be able to re-use his design in your application with little modification. Certainly, it can't hurt to ask. Regarding putting numbers on the acceptable side load, or conversely, on the life of the bearing under a given load condition, this Timken calculator might be useful: http://www.timken.com/EN-US/Knowledge/engineers/Pages/BearingLife.aspx Your 6207 crosses dimensionally to Timken's 207W, MM207K, and MMC207K ball bearings; of these, the 207W seems to have higher rated life. On this page, click 'Select Type' and select BB from the list, then enter 207W into the part number box and click 'Lookup'. After this you can enter radial and axial loads and speed values and hit 'Calculate' to see the effect on fatigue life. My understanding is that radial (side) load is exactly what the ball bearing is designed to handle, and that the real concern is the axial loading that these bearings might be subjected to in a more typical EV conversion with a manual clutch. For greater axial load capability one might want to upgrade the bearings to an angular contact type, however, in your case axial load should be minimal. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dennis Miles via EV wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. Relatively new DC motors are built with commutator bars that are glued in place. Older and heavy-duty motors instead have steel commutators that don't depend on glue to to hold the bars. Instead, there are steel rings at each end hold in the bars. They use mica or other materials to insulate the bars. This type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to withstand high temperatures and high RPMs. Here's one image I could quickly find: http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Motoped ebike
On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 2:28 AM, Gary Krysztopik via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm building one of these with a single-engine drive and here is a beautiful twin-engine build by Matt, who I bought my drive from. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28t=62040 Gary Catching up on my list reading here. This caught my eye because I've long felt that electric motorcycles are going to end up more like this project, i.e. an overbuilt bicycle, than like current motorcycles converted to or designed as electric. Today's few eMC manufacturers are trying to compete head-to-head with today's motorcycles only because that's what the market understands. They had a choice between more robust electric bikes and electrified motorcycles, and decided the money was bigger with motorcycles. I think what they didn't account for was the expectations of the motorcycle market. These guys like ICEs, they like noise and they like shifting. (Ask me how I know.) That's a lot of preference and expectation to overcome. As good as the Harley Livewire is, I doubt it will go anywhere if they are gathering their marketing feedback on the prototype fleet from Harley dealers and riders. As battery and other eMC technology improves, I think the TTXGP top performers will gravitate away from the superbike-scale racers that are hot now toward 125 and 250cc-scale racers. That's because the battery/motor lump will become more compact and allow a smaller bike to carry it. So keep your eyes on the electric motoped movement. I think they are the future of road-going electric motorcycles. You heard it here first. Chris -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/e4ab9c7a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Lee, I must be too young to have seen those, or else I did not have one fail because they were stronger. The other question is how does it damage the AC motor to over speed and why does a speed limiter in the controller/inverter cause damage as was indicated in the discussion? The AC motor doesn't have a commutator, or windings on the rotor so what is the harm in driving the motor to more than 8,000 rpm? All I can conceive are bearing stresses. Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Dennis Miles via EV wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. Relatively new DC motors are built with commutator bars that are glued in place. Older and heavy-duty motors instead have steel commutators that don't depend on glue to to hold the bars. Instead, there are steel rings at each end hold in the bars. They use mica or other materials to insulate the bars. This type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to withstand high temperatures and high RPMs. Here's one image I could quickly find: http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/33830f7c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 5, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: If I were the OP, I'd still want HPEVS to provide some max safe RPM value, not just a verbal statement that the 8000RPM limit is a controller limitation and not a limitation of the motor. No worries. The plan is to treat 8000 RPM as a hard-and-fast do-not-exceed limit, especially since it turns out that there's nothing to be gained from gearing lower than what I'm currently planning on. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/ab975cef/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dennis, Depends how the rotor is built, there is significant stress on it, not just the bearings. My previous EV had a Hughes induction (AC) motor with a 9,000 RPM redline and I believe that at that speed, the rotor surface is going about 300 km/h (200 MPH) in a thight 1/2 ft circle, so the centrifugal forces on that rotor surface are enormous, at some point it will litterally be pulled apart by the force that wants to let it fly in a straight line instead of turning a 1/2 ft circle at a third of the speed of sound. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles via EV Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 7:58 PM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? Lee, I must be too young to have seen those, or else I did not have one fail because they were stronger. The other question is how does it damage the AC motor to over speed and why does a speed limiter in the controller/inverter cause damage as was indicated in the discussion? The AC motor doesn't have a commutator, or windings on the rotor so what is the harm in driving the motor to more than 8,000 rpm? All I can conceive are bearing stresses. Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Dennis Miles via EV wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. Relatively new DC motors are built with commutator bars that are glued in place. Older and heavy-duty motors instead have steel commutators that don't depend on glue to to hold the bars. Instead, there are steel rings at each end hold in the bars. They use mica or other materials to insulate the bars. This type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to withstand high temperatures and high RPMs. Here's one image I could quickly find: http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/3383 0f7c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
