[EVDL] Truecar a website that is actually useful for buying plugins ...
% I have tried several of these 'help you buy a car' sites in the past, but
now here is one that is much closer to being a useful tool to find the
plugin you want. Below is a few searches I did with the premise of looking
all across the U.S. (unlimited distance) for the lowest priced EV (in the
used category):
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-BMW/engine-Electric/sort-1
$36k 2014 BMW i3 EV
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Chevrolet/engine-Electric/sort-1
$17k Spark EV
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Fiat/engine-Electric/sort-1
$16k Fiat 500e
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Ford/engine-Electric/sort-1
$14k 2012 Ford Focus Electric
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Honda/engine-Electric/sort-1
(no results) Honda
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Kia/engine-Electric/sort-1
(no results) Kia
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Mitsubishi/engine-Electric/sort-1
$11k iMiev Mitsubishi
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Nissan/engine-Electric/sort-1
$11k 2011 Nissan Leaf SV
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Smart/engine-Electric/sort-1
$16k 2013 Smart Fortwo Electric Drive
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Tesla/engine-Electric/sort-1
$60k 2008 Tesla Roadster
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/make-Volkswagen/engine-Electric/sort-1
(no results) VW
I encourage others to get it a try and report back your views on how good a
tool it is for buying either a new or used plugin.
%
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[EVDL] Bill Dube': Turning over a Used Leaf :-)
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/PNAS-report-cites-study-that-EV-s-pollute-more-than-gas-cars-tp4673112p4673145.html
]
Bill might have found a better EV-deal using
https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/location-Denver+CO/fuel-Electric/sort-1
Bill did not state what trim his 2012 Leaf was but that year's model only
came with a half-powered 3.3kW L2 on-board charger. Here is an image of his
Leaf (from his facebook page)
https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10857762_772334439469813_4119142648659159189_n.jpg?oh=1f391323d64761bd5fc37f431401a33doe=5535BCDB
As far as modifying his Leaf (as one member posted), I suggest he upgrade
the on-board charger to a full 6.6kW. According to the Leaf forum, Ingineer
offers that. Here is an image of one
https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/304394_10151254322388488_892931413_n.jpg?oh=b7f24899b6966da27df4f75d18404761oe=55366C9D
and the page mentioning it
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/417230061667994/
Here are links to explore:
http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/showthread.php/8737-Ingineer-add-3-4kW-AC-charger-upgrade-to-2011-Leaf-%286-7kW-total-charging%29
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9t=9552
An aftermarket kit to improve charging to 6.6kW
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=11235
6.6 Kw LEAF Charger
http://evdl.org/archive/index.html
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-3k-Sadow-s-proto-6kW-EVSE-charges-Leaf-in-3hrs-80-tp4656950.html
EVLN: ~$3k Sadow’s proto-6kW-EVSE charges Leaf in 3hrs:80%
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leaf_Battery_Application
Leaf Spy Manual
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet
Bill stated his 2012 Leaf does have the L3 CHAdeMO port, so he can use
public L3 quick charging. There is plenty of free L3 in the Denver CO area
for him to take advantage of.
Bill mentioned that there are plenty of ChargePoint EVSE in his area. The
ChargePoint EVSE page is not that bad a tool for finding public EVSE:
-it does show more than just 'their brand' of the EVSE (classified as other)
-and it does allow comments to be placed on each listing.
However when I compare the same region for the ChargePoint site and the
plugshare.com site, plugshare shows 50% more L2 and 80% more L3 public EVSE
(both sites show all EVSE by default).
Also, plughsare had more up-to-date information, pictures, and the actual
cost to use non-ChargePoint EVSE.
Of all the plugin drivers I have talked-to that regularly use Chargepoint,
say they like it to the point of not looking any further (to use any other
EVSE finder tool), nor EVSE brand.
IMO (as a charging-nut) I feel that is a big mistake, as while the
ChargePoint site might satify most of the driver's needs most of the time,
it would be wise to have the expereince in using plugshare even if it only
used as a backup EVSE finder tool. Plugshare is free to use, and you only
need to be a member if you want to find out about the private L1 sites, or
upload pictures, etc.
As I have mentioned in the past of a VA Dr. that had leased a Leaf but had
never even tried out his L3 to gain that experience (he had only used his
slow 3kW L2 = painful for those few times when you are in a hurry).
I hope Bill can consider upgrading his on-board L2 to 6kW so it will charge
faster and he can enjoy his Leaf EV more. Looking at his public EVSE
environment, there is a lot of free L32 EVSE where he is located. But that
will change once the 1yr Fed. Gov. limitation period is over (cities like to
set a use-fee to show no one is geting a free ride).
Of the EVSE in his area that is not free, about half charge by the hour.
That is where having a full power L2 6kW on-board charge is really good to
have (you charge quicker, so it costs you less for the charge). Those EVSE
that charge by the amount of pwer used (pkWh) it is the same amount of money
whether you have a 3kW or 6kW on-board charge, but a 6kW charge charges to
80%SOC ~twice a fast (~3hrs vs ~8hrs), and any parking fees would be less
from less time parked.
I also hope Bill can try out using the free L3 EVSE in his area (best to try
it now while it still is free).
And I hope Bill keeps us informed if he makes any
additions/changes/modifications to his Leaf EV. What Bill does to his Leaf
could set a presedent for others to follow, and not just for Leaf EVs :-)
{brucedp.150m.com}
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On Sun, Dec 21, 2014, at 04:14 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
Eva and I just bought a 2012 Leaf with 16K miles on it for a little over
$15k (after CO state incentives.) About the same cost as the components for
doing a conversion, but you end up with a _much_ nicer car than you could
ever think of building yourself.
Re: [EVDL] Coal Ash? (Was:PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.)
Turn them into insulating building blocks - that's what they do in Europe http://www.heidelbergcement.com/uk/en/hanson/products/blocks/sustainability/thermalite_sustainability.htm ... but I seee the same thing happens in the US... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash MW On 22 Dec 2014, at 00:18, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: What about the nasty coal ash that is typically left over when they burn coal. Great piles/pools of it are stored forever it seems next to coal fired plants. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 4:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: Thanks! It looks like they were going to get their CO2 sequestration equipment from Htcenergy.com. Found nothing about criteria pollutant emissions. I suspect that the marketing of this project led Roland to believe that it was a zero emission project, when this was not the case. Sent from my iPhone ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/400dc61f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
done their home work on this. I bet they know that tripling the grid use fee to you is actually what the market will bear. Be careful assuming they have done this wrong. MIke On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning. As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery: nickel-iron or something discarded from an EV. Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant investment in time to make, but it should last forever. A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan. Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never have to deal with it again. Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it only lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so rapidly. So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet? I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption? Anything else I should consider or start thinking about? Thanks, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/aab757b4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/c8c02102/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Turning over a Used Leaf :-)
Be sure not to leave it for long, or use it fully charged in a hot location. Sorry I don't know how hot is too hot, or how charged is too charged. But it is a rule to try and live by with a Leaf. If you can check the capacity of the pack before committing to buy that would be good. If it was used in a hot locale, the pack could be significantly depleted. On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 7:14 PM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Eva and I just bought a 2012 Leaf with 16K miles on it for a little over $15k (after CO state incentives.) About the same cost as the components for doing a conversion, but you end up with a _much_ nicer car than you could ever think of building yourself. Plus, you are spared a year's work of doing the build. We were convinced that now is the time to buy by Steve and Dee West in New Zealand during our recent visit. We went to Green Eyed Motors in Boulder to buy our Leaf. They very cleverly only sell used EVs that they purchase from out of state, and never titled in Colorado. They thus qualify for the full Colorado tax credit. The liked us, so they even threw in a wall charger. (Usually ~$400.) Very knowledgeable folks that were a pleasure to buy a car from. http://www.greeneyedmotors.com What we were blown away by is the sheer number of charging stations that are now available. There are over a hundred in the Denver area alone! https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point Most of them are free. You simply sign up for ChargePoint and tap the charger with your ChargePoint card. Tried it out for the first time today at Beau Jo's Pizza. Had a wonderful meal while my car charged for free. You can ask the car navigation system where the nearest charging station is, check using your phone to see whether or not it is in use, reserve it, and the nav. will lead you right to it. Once you are plugged in, the Leaf sends you messages on your smart phone, like charge complete. You can then tell it to turn on the climate control or ask for a status update using your smart phone. A _lot_ has changed in the short time (17 years?) I have been on the EVDL. Who would have thought then that you could buy an OEM EV at a reasonable price that would have 80+ miles of real-world range, (with heat!) and that there would be a whole network of chargers to plug into? You can visit out Facebook Fan page to read about our Leaf, our NZ trip, and our EV land speed racing: https://www.facebook.com/killacycle No need to be a facebook member to look at our fan page. Just ignore the annoying sign-in request by pressing escape or clicking cancel. Bill Eva ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/208062fe/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hi Ben, What SRPs CEO knows and you will find out is you are diving into a rabbit hole. It is not a rational world down there, yet. I will just talk about batteries. Lots of excellent points, I'll just comment on one. On the battery front - you live an a place that gets quite hot, it get hot when have a lot of sunlight. This means you will subject your batteries to the worst possible conditions for their life - high heat and high state of charge. You should know that Leaf batter packs are proving to be very a lot of trouble in AZ and SoCal where they get hot, and Nissan did not make provisions to col them. Some packs have lost 27% of their capacity in a year and lawsuits are in process. The heat is killing them. You are going to need to cool the system actively. You need to know what the exact cells are in it and their particular needs. A mixed pack will need to have climate control for the worst cells in it. One thing I noticed after moving from SoCal is that almost everyone on the east coast has a basement. And even without climate control, it stays around 60 degrees down there year 'round. (Probably varies somewhat depending on locale.) If you don't have a basement, build an underground bunker with proper grading, venting and drainage. Once it's done, battery storage should be forever trouble-free. Cheap in the long run. Chris -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/a440aeee/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
it out further, I would need to at least double my PV capacity (I have already gotten all the tax credit I can get, so I would spend $30K for an additional 6kW system with really quality components (Sunpower has the best chance of actually lasting 30 years) to meet my worst case needs, And I would probably be having some times of very low available power with this system when I would have to be very conservative in my use of stored power. If I charge an EV I need even more. The storage system is probably $20K. $50K out of pocket. I am not happy with my utility, but I like my money more. In 30 years I can triple that $50K with conservative investing practices. The heartache of and time going into design a home storage system is not appealing either. It will be risky and if you get it wrong the extra cost high. I believe simply waiting 10 or 20 years to see how all this shakes out is a smart move. Maybe buy some stock in Tesla and SolarCity - or similar. Domestic storage is coming, doing it DIY right now sounds like a foolish and costly endeavor. I suspect that SRP and Duke have done their home work on this. I bet they know that tripling the grid use fee to you is actually what the market will bear. Be careful assuming they have done this wrong. MIke On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning. As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery: nickel-iron or something discarded from an EV. Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant investment in time to make, but it should last forever. A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan. Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never have to deal with it again. Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it only lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so rapidly. So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet? I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption? Anything else I should consider or start thinking about? Thanks, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/aab757b4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/c8c02102/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
That's exactly my point: we're going to keep mining coal,... I wouldn't bet on that. The use of coal just in the last 4 years has gone down 20%! And there is no reason to think it won't go down drastically more. No reason to keep mining it if no one wants it. As our use dwindles, the low cost of coal due to declining scale will go up, providing further negative feedback to continued mining. Sure there will be some coal always needed, but I bet it will be below 5% of what we are using now. (in the USA) Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Turning over a Used Leaf :-)
Hi Bill, Glad to hear of your recent LEAF purchase. They are getting quite common on the streets of the UK. For me, buying used is a total no-brainer. A good example here can be bought for much the same price as you have paid (given the current exchange rate). My neighbour (who 'makes' honey) bought one a month back and can't keep his wife out of it. They are total converts. He can now afford to supply lots more local shops with his honey as it costs him so little to deliver compared with the diesel vehicle he replaced with the LEAF. It is such a nice combo. A natural product - delivered renewably. I'm trying to get him to cover the hill behind his house with PV next. It could then run the house, the 'factory' (which is surprisingly energy intensive - melting all that beeswax, filling jars etc) and the car off renewable power (albeit via the local utility co)! Regards and season's greetings, Martin Winlow EVBitz.uk On 22 Dec 2014, at 06:30, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is a 2012 SL model, so yes, it does have the L3 Chademo fast charge port. Know of any nifty hacks for connecting my existing PFC-50 up to the L3 charging port? That would cut my charge time almost in half, if someone has figured out how to do it. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 11:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: Does it have the L3 Chademo inlet? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via EV Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 9:55 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Turning over a Used Leaf :-) Hi Chris, It is really nice just the way it is. Plenty of pep. It handles quite well. Can't think of a thing I might change. Perhaps if there is some aftermarket upgrade to make the charger bigger, I might consider doing that. Bill D. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
Yes, Solar inverters, for example SMA uses the PV-arrays constant current output to fint the Maximum power point of the source, They sink the source deep down in voltage to find the optimum current*voltage , To find the load at the moment that produces the panels Arrays max output Power. , So, that is not a good thing if we use a solar inverter and put a big strong battery as the PV-array-source and sinks it to zero volt to find the sources max currents after the max voltag :-) BAM! ? http://www.aurora-energy.com/iv-curve-of-a-solar-panel/ http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/iv-curve Im not good at designing electronics, but maybe some of you can design a currentsource that mimics the PV array? To put between the inverter and battery, And also give it a maximum output current... 4000 amp non regulated input current ( ..the BAM!) is not good for my solar inverter when it hunts down the I V curve to find the max, I believe that they do not have a fast max current protection inside them at all, probably they just uses the max current output from the array. / John Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:00:28 -0800 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid From: ev@lists.evdl.org Many solar inverters can be (user) configured to do different types of optimization, so they can be adapted to different solar panels and even different inputs (wind, battery bank) but I did not see which inverter you use, so it is not possible to say if *your* inverter can handle batteries as a source. Some (cheap) PV optimizers short-circuit the panel when they do not need the power from it. Obviously that is a bad idea when using a battery as the source instead of a solar panel. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 1:08 PM To: John Lussmyer; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:53 PM, John Lussmyer via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Actually, bad assumption. Many/Most PV Inverters don't like being fed from batteries. Throws off their attempts to find the Max Power Point. I didn't know that. Would it matter that the batteries would mostly be feeding the inverter only when the panels aren't producing? Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters. Well, the system is already in place and has been for a few years. I've already got the inverter, in other words. Seems like, unless it's likely to do bad things, it's better to spend no money on a less-than-perfect but still-usable solution, than to spend more money to get a better version of something I already have that'll work. So...is it a matter of this not being the ideal way to design the system if starting from scratch, or of this being something that's workable at all? Or...are regular inverters so inexpensive relative to the total battery system cost that I'm being silly for not considering one as part of the cost of the system...? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/e332 5647/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
On 12/21/2014 03:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning. You should write to your local representatives as well since rate increases from power companies usually have to be approved by the local Public Utilities Commission. Get the newspapers involved. Find out what the company's justifications for the increase are and see if you can counter them. So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet? With a couple hundred thousand EVs now on the roads there are now a measurable number involved in accidents. As such, used--but not worn out--battery packs are now available through salvage yards and on eBay. And some vendors are selling (and supporting) used modules. EVWest (evwest.com), for example, is selling some used modules from (I believe) Smart EDs. I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption? As others have said, you really need to look at the documentation for your inverter. Also, don't forget you need some way to charge those batteries and charging a mis-matched set can be problematic. --Rick ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
stock in Tesla and SolarCity - or similar. Domestic storage is coming, doing it DIY right now sounds like a foolish and costly endeavor. I suspect that SRP and Duke have done their home work on this. I bet they know that tripling the grid use fee to you is actually what the market will bear. Be careful assuming they have done this wrong. MIke On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning. As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery: nickel-iron or something discarded from an EV. Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant investment in time to make, but it should last forever. A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan. Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never have to deal with it again. Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it only lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so rapidly. So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet? I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption? Anything else I should consider or start thinking about? Thanks, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/aab757b4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/c8c02102/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/be84d873/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (inverter cost)
Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters. Yes, something like FIVE TIMES. A 3kW grid-tie inverter probably costs about $1500. A 3 kW regular inverter costs less than $300 from Home Depot or anywhere else. Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] cows and pigs LOL
This report of EVs pollute more than gas cars is a joke, no one ever did a study of all the worlds pigs cows and all the other animals. If they all farted at once you would not see the sun for at least 2 weeks, remember people will always knock down EVs no matter how much good they are or how much good they really can do Just my 2 cents LOLOL -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/204da23e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (inverter cost)
Keep in mind that that Home Depot inverter is designed to be used occasionally for a few years and the 3kw rating is not really Intended to be met very often. The PV inverter is designed to run at the 3kw rating for several hours a day for 20 years if it's a good one. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 22, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Also, PV inverters are more expensive than regular inverters. Yes, something like FIVE TIMES. A 3kW grid-tie inverter probably costs about $1500. A 3 kW regular inverter costs less than $300 from Home Depot or anywhere else. Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo.Big deal... That is far-far (100 times ) cheaper than any home-energy storage system. Here is the lunacy of going off-grid when you already have it: EXAMPLE: I have 17kw of solar generating capacity at home. In Maryland, I probably get about 60kWh on a good day. (for a net-ZERO annual electric kWh bill) ... BUT!!! In the last 2 weeks we have had ONLY ONE sunny day. (this is rare)... On overcast days, I maybe get 6 kWh. But my electric load (now during worst winter solstice) is over 120 kWh per day (geothermal heatpump). If I was off grid, I'd need at least SIX TESLA equivalent batteries to be able to continue living at the same life style, and then, in this particular weather pattern, we would have run out of heat after 3 days and been cold fore more than a week. (they are forcasting 3 more days of clouds)... But with grid tie, NO PROBLEM. I stored up over 4 months of energy kWh in the grid, which should carry me though the winter to break even at zero by the spring. Even if they were not Tesla, but just Lead Acid batteries, and I wanted the same 5 day energy storage, I'd need 600 golf cart batteries, at $100 each or about $60,000 investment in batteries AND I would need to maintain them FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE and replace them every few years. Lets say somehow they last 5 years, That is $12k per year or $1000 per month. All of a sudden, the $8 per month compared to $1000 amortized battery cost looks really great indeed. (and zero maintenance for grid tie). But, HERE IS THE THING EVERYONE OVERLOOKS: 1) Since you have to oversize your battery capacity to handle cloudy days, then BY DEFINITION, on every additional SUNNY day in a row, then your batteries are FULL and cannot accept any more charge. Thus you are WASTING almost all of your solar panel investment on GOOD SUNNY DAYS in a row!!! (and most every summer day). 2) Even if you have say 5 days storage, that is miniscule compared to 365 days storage you get with the grid! In other words, you have no place to store the TWO-TIMES additional PV electricity you generate in the summer for when you need it most, in the winter.What a loss! Talk to anyone off-grid. They live a miserable life in the winter, barely scraping by, and then have excess solar power in the summer that they cannot even find ways to throw away because their batteries cannot take the extra. In Summary, if you have your own storage, and do NOT USE 100% of your solar capacity EVERY DAY, then you are throwing away your solar investment every afternoon after the batteries approach full. See http://aprs.org/off-grid-NOT.html The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the winter when you need it. Sure, you can burn oil, gas, propane, or wood for heat and drastically reduce your electric heating need, but then what about our goal of EMISSIONS FREE living? Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
Ah, thanks ALEC. I had heard that SRP was doing that. On the inverter issue, you're going to need one designed for use both with batteries and grid tie... Or one just for batteries if you go completely off grid. Either way, your current inverter will not work. For one, it can't mAke any voltage on its own, so you need SRP to make voltage for you--all it can do is make current. Outback and Schneider currently have ones that can work with batteries and the grid and are starting to be able to use lithium technologies (still 48 volts nominal --any higher is very unlikely due to NEC for houses). If you want to completely off grid (what SRP and others are pushing us towards) then magnum is a good brand. Sma also makes some off grid ones (different than their grid tie only ones. This whole topic will be a big issue in the coming few years so you will not be the be the only one researching it. Many of the manufacturers are working on new schemes to let you go off grid in areas where net metering is taken away or standby fees are rising-- I expect to see a lot if new products in the next few years. Z Sent from my iPhone On Dec 21, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning. As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery: nickel-iron or something discarded from an EV. Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant investment in time to make, but it should last forever. A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan. Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never have to deal with it again. Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it only lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so rapidly. So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet? I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption? Anything else I should consider or start thinking about? Thanks, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/aab757b4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
We've been using a battery based system since 1977, first using a 1930s vintage wind turbine, then a 1940s Jacobs, and started adding PVs to the energy production mix around 1981, as an off grid system. We then moved in 1989 to a place with an existing grid connection and added our wind/PV system. Until 2 years ago the system was grid connected using the grid as back up only , and then we added more PVs with grid tied microinverters. Last summer we replaced our VW Golf electric conversion with a year old Nissan Leaf, justifying it in part because it would use some of our surplus energy from our PV/wind system (the local utility just pays avoided fuel costs so using the electricity to replace gasoline as a vehicle fuel makes sense to me). Our current battery is a 24 volt 1500 amp-hour lead acid set, similar to a fork lift battery, and is about 15 years old and still going strong. It is about 3 days storage for us not including charging the car. I'm not sure how many more years we will get out of the batteries, but our set that we used in the 1970s and 80s was a used telephone company set, and lasted 12 years and was scrapped because we moved, not because it had gone bad--and today's battery monitoring equipment is much better than just monitoring battery voltage which was the choice years ago. The answer to needing a huge PV array and gigantic battery is to REDUCE YOUR ENERGY CONSUMPTION!! Our system provides all of our electric energy needs including charging our Leaf, and we have almost 4 1/2 kw of PVs plus the wind generator which might produce 100kw-hr in a good month (we aren't in a particularly good wind area, and installed the generator because we had it on hand). When our lead acid battery needs replacement, we will be looking at a couple of options, including going to a battery-less grid tied system, a new lead acid battery, or a used Lithium battery such as a used Leaf battery. Given the direction that the utilities seem to be moving in, going back to an off grid system with a new battery sounds better and better. In the past, friends that used Nickel-iron (Edison) batteries found that the voltage range from discharged to useful charged to charging voltage was too great for existing charging systems and inverters. they aren't as efficient as lead acid or lithium, either, as far as I can find ou. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/fd3c5601/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
Robert Bruninga wrote: The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the winter when you need it. That's why Outback and couple of other manufacturers make PV system inverter/chargers that can operate both in grid tie and battery back-up modes. You need some capacity for when the grid goes down, and you use the grid for storage during sunny stretches, and for long stretches when there's little sun. Our last PV system had Marathon AGM (sealed) lead-acid batteries for back-up. Our new PV system probably will too. Len Moskowitz ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
Can I ask what you use for heat in the winter? Thanks Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jim via EV Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 11:22 AM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid We've been using a battery based system since 1977, first using a 1930s vintage wind turbine, then a 1940s Jacobs, and started adding PVs to the energy production mix around 1981, as an off grid system. We then moved in 1989 to a place with an existing grid connection and added our wind/PV system. Until 2 years ago the system was grid connected using the grid as back up only , and then we added more PVs with grid tied microinverters. Last summer we replaced our VW Golf electric conversion with a year old Nissan Leaf, justifying it in part because it would use some of our surplus energy from our PV/wind system (the local utility just pays avoided fuel costs so using the electricity to replace gasoline as a vehicle fuel makes sense to me). Our current battery is a 24 volt 1500 amp-hour lead acid set, similar to a fork lift battery, and is about 15 years old and still going strong. It is about 3 days storage for us not including charging the car. I'm not sure how many more years we will get out of the batteries, but our set that we used in the 1970s and 80s was a used telephone company set, and lasted 12 years and was scrapped because we moved, not because it had gone bad--and today's battery monitoring equipment is much better than just monitoring battery voltage which was the choice years ago. The answer to needing a huge PV array and gigantic battery is to REDUCE YOUR ENERGY CONSUMPTION!! Our system provides all of our electric energy needs including charging our Leaf, and we have almost 4 1/2 kw of PVs plus the wind generator which might produce 100kw-hr in a good month (we aren't in a particularly good wind area, and installed the generator because we had it on hand). When our lead acid battery needs replacement, we will be looking at a couple of options, including going to a battery-less grid tied system, a new lead acid battery, or a used Lithium battery such as a used Leaf battery. Given the direction that the utilities seem to be moving in, going back to an off grid system with a new battery sounds better and better. In the past, friends that used Nickel-iron (Edison) batteries found that the voltage range from discharged to useful charged to charging voltage was too great for existing charging systems and inverters. they aren't as efficient as lead acid or lithium, either, as far as I can find ou. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/fd3c5601/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
I am with you Bob. As aggravating as it dealing with a utility company, and as attractive as it is to be free of them, it is rarely a good financial decision to drop use of an available grid. For as along as they can, utilities will be pricing there service to discourage us from going off grid.. THis will inevitably drop, but they will still be after some fee if they can get it. That grid connection is not just money but also support and influence. Maybe if one is sitting on a big pile...but it still makes little financial sense. I would take exception with your knock on wood heat. A tree burned emits no more than a a tree decayed on the forest floor. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo.Big deal... That is far-far (100 times ) cheaper than any home-energy storage system. Here is the lunacy of going off-grid when you already have it: EXAMPLE: I have 17kw of solar generating capacity at home. In Maryland, I probably get about 60kWh on a good day. (for a net-ZERO annual electric kWh bill) ... BUT!!! In the last 2 weeks we have had ONLY ONE sunny day. (this is rare)... On overcast days, I maybe get 6 kWh. But my electric load (now during worst winter solstice) is over 120 kWh per day (geothermal heatpump). If I was off grid, I'd need at least SIX TESLA equivalent batteries to be able to continue living at the same life style, and then, in this particular weather pattern, we would have run out of heat after 3 days and been cold fore more than a week. (they are forcasting 3 more days of clouds)... But with grid tie, NO PROBLEM. I stored up over 4 months of energy kWh in the grid, which should carry me though the winter to break even at zero by the spring. Even if they were not Tesla, but just Lead Acid batteries, and I wanted the same 5 day energy storage, I'd need 600 golf cart batteries, at $100 each or about $60,000 investment in batteries AND I would need to maintain them FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE and replace them every few years. Lets say somehow they last 5 years, That is $12k per year or $1000 per month. All of a sudden, the $8 per month compared to $1000 amortized battery cost looks really great indeed. (and zero maintenance for grid tie). But, HERE IS THE THING EVERYONE OVERLOOKS: 1) Since you have to oversize your battery capacity to handle cloudy days, then BY DEFINITION, on every additional SUNNY day in a row, then your batteries are FULL and cannot accept any more charge. Thus you are WASTING almost all of your solar panel investment on GOOD SUNNY DAYS in a row!!! (and most every summer day). 2) Even if you have say 5 days storage, that is miniscule compared to 365 days storage you get with the grid! In other words, you have no place to store the TWO-TIMES additional PV electricity you generate in the summer for when you need it most, in the winter.What a loss! Talk to anyone off-grid. They live a miserable life in the winter, barely scraping by, and then have excess solar power in the summer that they cannot even find ways to throw away because their batteries cannot take the extra. In Summary, if you have your own storage, and do NOT USE 100% of your solar capacity EVERY DAY, then you are throwing away your solar investment every afternoon after the batteries approach full. See http://aprs.org/off-grid-NOT.html The beauty of GRID-TIE is the UNLIMITED storage capacity, the lack of maintenance, and the ability to store up summer excesss for use in the winter when you need it. Sure, you can burn oil, gas, propane, or wood for heat and drastically reduce your electric heating need, but then what about our goal of EMISSIONS FREE living? Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/58daa2ac
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
in the winter when you need it. Sure, you can burn oil, gas, propane, or wood for heat and drastically reduce your electric heating need, but then what about our goal of EMISSIONS FREE living? Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/58daa2ac/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: That's exactly my point: we're going to keep mining coal,... I wouldn't bet on that. The use of coal just in the last 4 years has gone down 20%! And there is no reason to think it won't go down drastically more. No reason to keep mining it if no one wants it. Remember that the power companies are totally obsessed with money. They don't give more than lip service to anything except the cost of energy. It might be coal, or oil, or natural gas, or nuclear, or wind, or solar... whatever is is the cheapest will get ALL their attention *no matter what*! Natural gas and oil happen to be cheaper at the moment. But the winds of change blow hard and fast -- that could change any time. -- I view this year’s failure as next year’s opportunity. Failures are not something to be avoided. You want them to happen as quickly as you can, so you can make progress rapidly. -- Gordon Moore -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Grid Solar kits?
Has anyone had experience getting a local electrician to install a grid-tie-solar kit such as the one offered by Home Depot? The cheapest one is about $2588 for a 1kW kit. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634 That is my recommendation to all DIY folks. Buy the $2588 kit, pay $500 for an electrician to install it and help him with any local solar/utility paperwork. Get Grid-tied, approved and certified. Total cost is about $3 per watt but only for this first 1kW. Then add on to it at UNDER $1/watt after all the approvals and certifications and grid tie are complete. The typical cost for full contractor systems is up around $4 to $5 per watt. Application to EV's (and EVDL list) is that this is the CARBON FREE way to charge. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
Further, where did the idea that all the decayed wood's carbon goes into the atmosphere. If that were true in general, we wouldn't have any fossil fuels! Much of the decayed wood turn into humus and stays in the soil. The only argument I could buy is is you grow trees at the same rate you burn them, you are probably carbon neutral. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 22-Dec-14 10:00:44 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid ➢ A tree burned emits no more than a tree decayed on the forest floor. Ah, I knew they claimed that burning wood was carbon neutral, but I could not remember why. You just summarized it well. Though there are other junk from burning wood that we don’t want to breath (as noted by Mark:) Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution, particularly particulate matter, but also including ... potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas), CO (*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more. And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere if not forever and so that can help our short-term problem better by not burning it (yet)... Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/58daa2ac/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Grid Solar kits?
I'm contemplating this myself. There are cheaper kits though, http://www.renogy-store.com/category-s/1872.htm The only thing I worry about is the building department and permits, the mounting and wiring looks easy enough. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Has anyone had experience getting a local electrician to install a grid-tie-solar kit such as the one offered by Home Depot? The cheapest one is about $2588 for a 1kW kit. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634 That is my recommendation to all DIY folks. Buy the $2588 kit, pay $500 for an electrician to install it and help him with any local solar/utility paperwork. Get Grid-tied, approved and certified. Total cost is about $3 per watt but only for this first 1kW. Then add on to it at UNDER $1/watt after all the approvals and certifications and grid tie are complete. The typical cost for full contractor systems is up around $4 to $5 per watt. Application to EV's (and EVDL list) is that this is the CARBON FREE way to charge. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- www.electric-lemon.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/3999eecb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Coal Ash? (Was:PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.)
In Thailand they can bury it, but in the US we are lucky to have some oversight with health in mind. Almost anything you pull up out of the crust and use, ends up creating a waste stream of metallic crude. Even geothermal has a problem with arsenic. So what you get when you make coal ash is a lot of all that, Mercury, arsenic, cadmium and so on don't even have to be in very large fractions to add up to a real problem. It is a problem, and burying in it simplest method is not useful. On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Denis Berube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In Thailand they stick the waste back in the strip mine bury it and plant rubber trees Dennis Berube Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone div Original message /divdivFrom: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org /divdivDate:12/22/2014 7:18 AM (GMT+07:00) /divdivTo: Mark Abramowitz ma...@enviropolicy.com, Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org /divdivSubject: [EVDL] Coal Ash? (Was:PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.) /divdiv /divWhat about the nasty coal ash that is typically left over when they burn coal. Great piles/pools of it are stored forever it seems next to coal fired plants. Bill D. On 12/21/2014 4:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: Thanks! It looks like they were going to get their CO2 sequestration equipment from Htcenergy.com. Found nothing about criteria pollutant emissions. I suspect that the marketing of this project led Roland to believe that it was a zero emission project, when this was not the case. Sent from my iPhone ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/c0c4637d/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/7ff85aad/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Bill Dube': Turning over a Used Leaf :-)
Bruce (et al), some enlightening information/charts about Leafs (etc) wrt heating. http://news.fleetcarma.com/2014/01/22/electric-vehicle-heating-chevrolet-volt-nissan-leaf/?utm_source=Cold-Updateutm_medium=Blogutm_campaign=aux-load http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/ http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Factors_Affecting_Battery_Capacity_Loss (see regional/city coefficient table near bottom, then check VIN/carfax/autocheck/ or servicing dealer records for historical location(s)) -Chris On 12/22/2014 2:36 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: [ref http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/PNAS-report-cites-study-that-EV-s-pollute-more-than-gas-cars-tp4673112p4673145.html ] Bill might have found a better EV-deal using https://usedcars.truecar.com/cars/location-Denver+CO/fuel-Electric/sort-1 Bill did not state what trim his 2012 Leaf was but that year's model only came with a half-powered 3.3kW L2 on-board charger. Here is an image of his Leaf (from his facebook page) https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10857762_772334439469813_4119142648659159189_n.jpg?oh=1f391323d64761bd5fc37f431401a33doe=5535BCDB As far as modifying his Leaf (as one member posted), I suggest he upgrade the on-board charger to a full 6.6kW. According to the Leaf forum, Ingineer offers that. Here is an image of one https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/p180x540/304394_10151254322388488_892931413_n.jpg?oh=b7f24899b6966da27df4f75d18404761oe=55366C9D and the page mentioning it https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/417230061667994/ Here are links to explore: http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/showthread.php/8737-Ingineer-add-3-4kW-AC-charger-upgrade-to-2011-Leaf-%286-7kW-total-charging%29 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9t=9552 An aftermarket kit to improve charging to 6.6kW http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=11235 6.6 Kw LEAF Charger http://evdl.org/archive/index.html http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-3k-Sadow-s-proto-6kW-EVSE-charges-Leaf-in-3hrs-80-tp4656950.html EVLN: ~$3k Sadow’s proto-6kW-EVSE charges Leaf in 3hrs:80% http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leaf_Battery_Application Leaf Spy Manual http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet Bill stated his 2012 Leaf does have the L3 CHAdeMO port, so he can use public L3 quick charging. There is plenty of free L3 in the Denver CO area for him to take advantage of. Bill mentioned that there are plenty of ChargePoint EVSE in his area. The ChargePoint EVSE page is not that bad a tool for finding public EVSE: -it does show more than just 'their brand' of the EVSE (classified as other) -and it does allow comments to be placed on each listing. However when I compare the same region for the ChargePoint site and the plugshare.com site, plugshare shows 50% more L2 and 80% more L3 public EVSE (both sites show all EVSE by default). Also, plughsare had more up-to-date information, pictures, and the actual cost to use non-ChargePoint EVSE. Of all the plugin drivers I have talked-to that regularly use Chargepoint, say they like it to the point of not looking any further (to use any other EVSE finder tool), nor EVSE brand. IMO (as a charging-nut) I feel that is a big mistake, as while the ChargePoint site might satify most of the driver's needs most of the time, it would be wise to have the expereince in using plugshare even if it only used as a backup EVSE finder tool. Plugshare is free to use, and you only need to be a member if you want to find out about the private L1 sites, or upload pictures, etc. As I have mentioned in the past of a VA Dr. that had leased a Leaf but had never even tried out his L3 to gain that experience (he had only used his slow 3kW L2 = painful for those few times when you are in a hurry). I hope Bill can consider upgrading his on-board L2 to 6kW so it will charge faster and he can enjoy his Leaf EV more. Looking at his public EVSE environment, there is a lot of free L32 EVSE where he is located. But that will change once the 1yr Fed. Gov. limitation period is over (cities like to set a use-fee to show no one is geting a free ride). Of the EVSE in his area that is not free, about half charge by the hour. That is where having a full power L2 6kW on-board charge is really good to have (you charge quicker, so it costs you less for the charge). Those EVSE that charge by the amount of pwer used (pkWh) it is the same amount of money whether you have a 3kW or 6kW on-board charge, but a 6kW charge charges to 80%SOC ~twice a fast (~3hrs vs ~8hrs), and any parking fees would be less from less time parked. I also hope Bill can try out using the free L3 EVSE in his area (best to try it now while it still is free). And I hope Bill keeps us informed if he makes any
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:34 AM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Remember that the power companies are totally obsessed with money. They don't give more than lip service to anything except the cost of energy. It might be coal, or oil, or natural gas, or nuclear, or wind, or solar... whatever is is the cheapest will get ALL their attention *no matter what*! It's just not as simple as that. They also do long range planning on what costs will likely be in the future, regulatory drivers, what their competitors are likely to do, and their own asset mix. Many also have objectives set by regulators, with incentives for them to increase conservation, for example. Money is not necessarily the driver here. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
On Dec 22, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere if not forever and so that can help our short-term problem better by not burning it (yet)... The cleanest kilowatt of energy is the kilowatt not used. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
Lots of discussion and good points since I last checked in yesterday. Thanks, everybody! I'll try to hit all the high points in this single note. On Dec 22, 2014, at 6:36 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: It is important to know what your present and future power needs are. That much is basically covered. The system is already in place, has been running for a few years, and produces about half again as much as I use; I intentionally oversized it so I could accommodate an EV, and I'm still working on the EV part. And, of course, if the numbers work out, I'll add a mix of more panels and batteries rather than just batteries alone. On the battery front - you live an a place that gets quite hot, it get hot when have a lot of sunlight. This means you will subject your batteries to the worst possible conditions for their life - high heat and high state of charge. The batteries will live with the inverter, etc., indoors at the back of a walk-in closet. There's a duct (plus jump return) in that room, so it shares the same airconditioning as the rest of the house. On Dec 22, 2014, at 6:55 AM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: One thing I noticed after moving from SoCal is that almost everyone on the east coast has a basement. And even without climate control, it stays around 60 degrees down there year 'round. Basements are rare here in Arizona, and I don't have one. Geothermal climate control makes all kinds of sense...for new construction. And it basically never makes sense for a retrofit, except in rare circumstances where you've got lots of property nearby you can excavate and re-fill. On Dec 22, 2014, at 8:03 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: One way to compromise is to throw a small ICE generator into the mix. That may well be a good idea. Or, when I finally do get an EV on the road, figure out the V2H thing. On Dec 22, 2014, at 8:25 AM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: You should write to your local representatives as well since rate increases from power companies usually have to be approved by the local Public Utilities Commission. Salt River Project is a quasi-governmental agency and not regulated by the Arizona Corporation Commission as the other utilities are. The buck stops with them, basically. Get the newspapers involved. I hand-delivered a copy of my letter to SRP's CEO to the editor of The Arizona Republic. And I'm pretty sure a couple news outlets have already run a story or three. With a couple hundred thousand EVs now on the roads there are now a measurable number involved in accidents. As such, used--but not worn out--battery packs are now available through salvage yards and on eBay. And some vendors are selling (and supporting) used modules. EVWest (evwest.com), for example, is selling some used modules from (I believe) Smart EDs. This is what I was hoping to get some help with here...what sorts of figures should I broadly expect as fair to pay per kWh of battery capacity in such a battery, and what sort of lifespan should I expect out of them? I'm not looking to price and purchase a system; I'm basically trying to figure out how competitive such an option is compared with something like an immortal nickel-iron battery, and also to get a better handle on what to prepare for. As others have said, you really need to look at the documentation for your inverter. It's a PowerOne Aurora...and I've yet to dig up its documentation...my bad On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Zeke Yewdall zyewd...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to completely off grid (what SRP and others are pushing us towards) then magnum is a good brand [...] Thanks for the various recommendations. I'll look into them. Seems like I should brace myself for the possibility that I'll have to either sell my current inverter (I'm sure at a loss) to pay for a grid-replacement one, or that I'll wind up with a second inverter in addition to the one I have. On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:21 AM, jim via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In the past, friends that used Nickel-iron (Edison) batteries found that the voltage range from discharged to useful charged to charging voltage was too great for existing charging systems and inverters. they aren't as efficient as lead acid or lithium, either, as far as I can find ou. Good to know; not something I've come across yet, but something I'll definitely have to watch out for -- including if I go the homebrew route for the batteries. On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, 3 times $8/mo is $24/mo.Big deal... If only it were 3*8! It's actually 3*17 at a minimum...it's still not clear if they're planning on increasing the basic connection fee from $17 to $50, or if the $50 is a solar penalty in addition to the $17 basic connection fee. Either way, that puts the monthly rates at the bottom end of the total monthly range I was
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
) to meet my worst case needs, And I would probably be having some times of very low available power with this system when I would have to be very conservative in my use of stored power. If I charge an EV I need even more. The storage system is probably $20K. $50K out of pocket. I am not happy with my utility, but I like my money more. In 30 years I can triple that $50K with conservative investing practices. The heartache of and time going into design a home storage system is not appealing either. It will be risky and if you get it wrong the extra cost high. I believe simply waiting 10 or 20 years to see how all this shakes out is a smart move. Maybe buy some stock in Tesla and SolarCity - or similar. Domestic storage is coming, doing it DIY right now sounds like a foolish and costly endeavor. I suspect that SRP and Duke have done their home work on this. I bet they know that tripling the grid use fee to you is actually what the market will bear. Be careful assuming they have done this wrong. MIke On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project, my utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly basic connection fees for solar customers. I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld, I'll get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote as much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the proposal stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place for existing customers...but, still, now is the time to start planning. As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery: nickel-iron or something discarded from an EV. Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant investment in time to make, but it should last forever. A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan. Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never have to deal with it again. Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it only lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so rapidly. So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect to pay for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold enough charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet? I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the inverter I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I don't have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That, for example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from here and a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got enough amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove batteries later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption? Anything else I should consider or start thinking about? Thanks, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141221/aab757b4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/c8c02102/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/be84d873/attachment.htm
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 3:51 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Lots of discussion and good points since I last checked in yesterday. Thanks, everybody! I'll try to hit all the high points in this single note. On Dec 22, 2014, at 6:36 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: It is important to know what your present and future power needs are. That much is basically covered. The system is already in place, has been running for a few years, and produces about half again as much as I use; I intentionally oversized it so I could accommodate an EV, and I'm still working on the EV part. And, of course, if the numbers work out, I'll add a mix of more panels and batteries rather than just batteries alone. On the battery front - you live an a place that gets quite hot, it get hot when have a lot of sunlight. This means you will subject your batteries to the worst possible conditions for their life - high heat and high state of charge. The batteries will live with the inverter, etc., indoors at the back of a walk-in closet. There's a duct (plus jump return) in that room, so it shares the same airconditioning as the rest of the house. I do hope you have a fire control system. If you have lithium cells they can - any chemistry- get away and become very destructive. I would not put a storage pack inside my home. You say the space is climate controlled, but it had better be and not just sort of. The investment in batteries is great and you can ruin them quickly if they get hot. Will they be densely packed? WIll the cells in the center be well cooled? -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/33cb069e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
I have a very good stove. After the start up phase, you would not know I have wood heat. Particulates probably are not anything like the pollen the trees generate while alive. I do have a bushel of ash a year, approximately. That gets mixed safely into the ecosystem. There is nothing fishy about the claim of carbon neutrality for burning wood. The 5 acres behind my home is fully forested, I don't even cut them down live. I burn deadfalls and what my neighbors have falling down. The speed of burning versus decaying washes out completely over time. The decay is combustion just by biological means. The cellulose is consumed by bacteria, ultimately (even if it first passes through some buggy digestive tract). The prehistoric biomass that became oil and coal was not decayed or the carbon would have already returned to the atmosphere. When a tree decays the carbon is in the air. The humus you see is simply not yet decayed completely. I am not going to get any more specific about carbon neutrality of wood burning. It is easy to find information on this (and misinformation). I have decided which on which side I am. If I was concerned I would not do it. My heat would be from gas, but I don't support releasing that by using wood. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Further, where did the idea that all the decayed wood's carbon goes into the atmosphere. If that were true in general, we wouldn't have any fossil fuels! Much of the decayed wood turn into humus and stays in the soil. The only argument I could buy is is you grow trees at the same rate you burn them, you are probably carbon neutral. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 22-Dec-14 10:00:44 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid ➢ A tree burned emits no more than a tree decayed on the forest floor. Ah, I knew they claimed that burning wood was carbon neutral, but I could not remember why. You just summarized it well. Though there are other junk from burning wood that we don’t want to breath (as noted by Mark:) Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution, particularly particulate matter, but also including ... potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas), CO (*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more. And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere if not forever and so that can help our short-term problem better by not burning it (yet)... Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/85539e60/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
Regardless of how fast carbon from decaying material goes into the atmosphere, the real issue is the short term balance. If you have 5 acres and are burning windfall, clearly you are net zero on a yearly basis. If fact, even if you were to cut a few trees a year from a mature forest (where new trees are seeding and growing), I think 5 acres would still be enough to be carbon neutral. The rest of us probably don't meet your performance! Peri -- Original Message -- From: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 22-Dec-14 2:08:34 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid I have a very good stove. After the start up phase, you would not know I have wood heat. Particulates probably are not anything like the pollen the trees generate while alive. I do have a bushel of ash a year, approximately. That gets mixed safely into the ecosystem. There is nothing fishy about the claim of carbon neutrality for burning wood. The 5 acres behind my home is fully forested, I don't even cut them down live. I burn deadfalls and what my neighbors have falling down. The speed of burning versus decaying washes out completely over time. The decay is combustion just by biological means. The cellulose is consumed by bacteria, ultimately (even if it first passes through some buggy digestive tract). The prehistoric biomass that became oil and coal was not decayed or the carbon would have already returned to the atmosphere. When a tree decays the carbon is in the air. The humus you see is simply not yet decayed completely. I am not going to get any more specific about carbon neutrality of wood burning. It is easy to find information on this (and misinformation). I have decided which on which side I am. If I was concerned I would not do it. My heat would be from gas, but I don't support releasing that by using wood. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Further, where did the idea that all the decayed wood's carbon goes into the atmosphere. If that were true in general, we wouldn't have any fossil fuels! Much of the decayed wood turn into humus and stays in the soil. The only argument I could buy is is you grow trees at the same rate you burn them, you are probably carbon neutral. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 22-Dec-14 10:00:44 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid ➢ A tree burned emits no more than a tree decayed on the forest floor. Ah, I knew they claimed that burning wood was carbon neutral, but I could not remember why. You just summarized it well. Though there are other junk from burning wood that we don’t want to breath (as noted by Mark:) Burning wood emits *lots* of air pollution, particularly particulate matter, but also including ... potent carcinogens, NOx (also a greenhouse gas), CO (*dangerous* in closed spaces), and more. And surely some of that carbon takes years to return to the atmosphere if not forever and so that can help our short-term problem better by not burning it (yet)... Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? Dalai Lama Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. Warren Buffet Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/86f5a7d6/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gascars.
You are quite correct Mark, but Lee is too, at least where Duke Progress is concerned. You can feel well cared for if you are DP shareholder, or the resident of a tony office in their pretty skyscraper. The regulators are pretty easily influenced here in the DP territory. I would take issue with the comment whatever is is the cheapest will get ALL their attention. Nuclear power is definitely not the cheapest, but it seems to have attracted their attention anyway. I suspect it has served somebody's profit motive though. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:34 AM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Remember that the power companies are totally obsessed with money. They don't give more than lip service to anything except the cost of energy. It might be coal, or oil, or natural gas, or nuclear, or wind, or solar... whatever is is the cheapest will get ALL their attention *no matter what*! It's just not as simple as that. They also do long range planning on what costs will likely be in the future, regulatory drivers, what their competitors are likely to do, and their own asset mix. Many also have objectives set by regulators, with incentives for them to increase conservation, for example. Money is not necessarily the driver here. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/1a2bf107/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Quest for 200 MPH in 1/4 mile on batteries
I don't intend to start a discussion on drag racing - that is much better done on the NEDRA list, but I noticed a post from Plug In America and I was surprised to see some familiar names and the awesome architecture of this monster: SR-37 with 3 Zilla 2k and 6 motors, putting 1.5 MW down. Not to mention the battery pack that can crank that out! Only detail I noticed is that Derek's name is misspelled in the credits (it is Barger) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvzBkan4j1w#t=251 Enjoy. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.infom Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/822cdb66/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
From: jim via EV ev@lists.evdl.org In the past, friends that used Nickel-iron (Edison) batteries found that the voltage range from discharged to useful charged to charging voltage was too great for existing charging systems and inverters. Everything is a trade-off, no? Flooded cell NiFe have a fairly high internal resistance and, as you note, a large voltage swing. But they are the champs when it comes to longevity. I had one 12V NiFe battery that I used for ham radio that must have had several thousand cycles on it, and was still in good shape when I sold it at a hambest for more than I paid for it, some ten years later. And the following quote came up totally at random: In a low-energy future, most of today's technology and culture will end up in the dustbin of history. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Grid Solar kits?
And, with regards to permitting and interconnections. Depending on the utility company and building department, I easily spend more time on that than on site labor :( Z On Monday, December 22, 2014, Zeke Yewdall zyewd...@gmail.com wrote: Here in Colorado, many companies are bidding $3/watt or less installed for grid tied Pv. Not good for the business long term as a lot of installers are going out of business but it's pretty cheap for customers. On Monday, December 22, 2014, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ev@lists.evdl.org'); wrote: Has anyone had experience getting a local electrician to install a grid-tie-solar kit such as the one offered by Home Depot? The cheapest one is about $2588 for a 1kW kit. http://www.homedepot.comhere in Colorado, many companies are bidding $3/watt ir less/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystalline-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634 That is my recommendation to all DIY folks. Buy the $2588 kit, pay $500 for an electrician to install it and help him with any local solar/utility paperwork. Get Grid-tied, approved and certified. Total cost is about $3 per watt but only for this first 1kW. Then add on to it at UNDER $1/watt after all the approvals and certifications and grid tie are complete. The typical cost for full contractor systems is up around $4 to $5 per watt. Application to EV's (and EVDL list) is that this is the CARBON FREE way to charge. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/ade53014/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Grid Solar kits?
Here in Colorado, many companies are bidding $3/watt or less installed for grid tied Pv. Not good for the business long term as a lot of installers are going out of business but it's pretty cheap for customers. On Monday, December 22, 2014, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Has anyone had experience getting a local electrician to install a grid-tie-solar kit such as the one offered by Home Depot? The cheapest one is about $2588 for a 1kW kit. http://www.homedepot.comhere in Colorado, many companies are bidding $3/watt ir less/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-1-060-Watt-Expandable-Mono-Crystall ine-PV-Grid-Tied-Solar-Power-Kit-GS-1060-KIT/205495634 That is my recommendation to all DIY folks. Buy the $2588 kit, pay $500 for an electrician to install it and help him with any local solar/utility paperwork. Get Grid-tied, approved and certified. Total cost is about $3 per watt but only for this first 1kW. Then add on to it at UNDER $1/watt after all the approvals and certifications and grid tie are complete. The typical cost for full contractor systems is up around $4 to $5 per watt. Application to EV's (and EVDL list) is that this is the CARBON FREE way to charge. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141222/30f6485b/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid
On Dec 22, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%, and will take about 28 years to double. Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system, I still come out ahead with that as opposed to buying T-bills. I don't think that your true decision has anything to do with the above, but if it does, you've picked a comparison that IMO is off base. T-bills are a poor way of getting a return on an investment. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Pound-foolish batteries for solar PV off-grid
On Dec 22, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Particulates probably are not anything like the pollen the trees generate while alive. Wow. Never heard anyone compare pollen to particulates. Pollen may cause you to have allergies and impact you for a short period, depending in how allergic you are. Particulates can cause or exacerbate many very serious health problems, and depending on its makeup, can cause cancer. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
