Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread tomw via EV
At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency.  My 2260 lb ev
5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50%
travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph.  Charger efficiency, measured several
times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding
charger losses.  

What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed
vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them.  A range
of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20%
DoD, and not too much increase in vehicle weight due to this larger pack
size - so higher specific energy cells than the 103 kWh/kg it presently has. 
This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need
significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles.  I expect like others
gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. 



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Willie2 via EV

On 05/18/2015 09:51 AM, tomw via EV wrote:

What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed
vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them.  A range


The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors?

-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range 
EV4the masses



On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are 
sprung.


Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Mark Grasser via EV
Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung
weight.

 .

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM
To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
EV4the masses

Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors?

-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
EV4the masses

On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

  The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are 
sprung.

Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.

Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?

b
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread tomw via EV
Larger diameter would be more efficient.  If they don't need to carry much
weight you might look into using motorcycle tires which are narrower.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs

2015-05-18 Thread paul dove via EV
 (though,
admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
[© greencarreports.com]
...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
...
http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
[May 13, 2015]  Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or 
greater
than 10 kWh - including models ...
...
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
Electric vehicle tax credit




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs

2015-05-18 Thread paul dove via EV
 (though,
admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
[© greencarreports.com]
...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
...
http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
[May 13, 2015]  Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or 
greater
than 10 kWh - including models ...
...
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
Electric vehicle tax credit




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs

2015-05-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Does anyone know if the federal credit can be applied to a used EV 
provided that the credit hasn't already been applied to that EV?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 18-May-15 12:41:11 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used  Outside-State 
Purchased EVs





http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098277_colorados-electric-car-credit-applies-to-used-cars-too
Colorado's Electric-Car Credit: Applies To Used Cars Too
By John Voelcker  May 13, 2015

[images
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-nissan-leaf_100473864_m.jpg
2015 Nissan Leaf

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla-roadster-recharging-at-denver-international-airport-from-solardave-blog_100305292_m.jpg
Tesla Roadster recharging at Denver International Airport, from 
SolarDave

blog
]

The checkerboard pattern of constantly changing electric-car incentives 
and

fees among the 50 American states often baffles outsiders.

And as states go, Colorado has a mixed record.

But its electric-car incentive turns out to have a quirk not shared by 
any

other state, as far as we can determine.

That is the eligibility of its electric-car purchase tax credit not 
just to
new cars, but also to used cars on which the credit hasn't previously 
been

claimed.

That largely applies to electric cars imported from other outside 
Colorado.


That state's electric-car purchase tax credit lets taxpayers claim a 
credit

for 75 percent of the premium over a comparable gasoline car, up to a
maximum of $6,000, for purchasing a battery-electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicle.

According to a Colorado electric-car advocate who asked to remain 
anonymous,
a Colorado resident can claim that credit on any electric car whose 
Vehicle
Identification Number (VIN) hasn't previously been submitted to the 
program.


That means that, in theory, a Colorado resident could travel to 
California

to buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that had been registered there for three
years--the time required to claim that state's electric-car purchase 
rebate.


Our source says that the buyer could then truck it to Colorado, 
register it
as a used car, and legally claim that state's tax credit on the year's 
tax

return.

That quirk aside, two years ago, Colorado was rated the most electric
car-friendly of six Southwestern states studied by the Southwest Energy
Efficiency Project (SWEEP).

On the other hand, Colorado is one of several states that have 
instituted a
special registration fee on electric cars to compensate for the 
gasoline

taxes they don't pay.

But in Colorado, it's among the lowest, at just $50 per year.

Better yet, $20 of each car's annual fee goes to the state's Electric
Vehicle Grant Fund, which pays for public charging stations and other
infrastructure.

At the behest of the Colorado Automobile Dealers Association, the state 
was
one of the earliest to change its franchise laws to prohibit Tesla 
Motors

from opening additional Tesla Stores within the state.

That took place back in March 2010, as the association's president Tim
Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we
published in October 2012.

If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to 
get

more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do
exactly that.

A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes 
for

the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased (though,
admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
[© greencarreports.com]
...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
...
http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
[May 13, 2015]  Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or 
greater

than 10 kWh - including models ...
...
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
Electric vehicle tax credit




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http://evdl.org/evln/


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[EVDL] EVLN: Roe-Deer.no kamikaze'd Kjetil-Jystad's e-Golf EV

2015-05-18 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.torquenews.com/1/safety-place-when-vw-e-golf-hits-deer
Safety in Place When VW e-Golf Hits a Deer
By Armen Hareyan  2015-05-13 

[image  
http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-%5Buid%5D/%5Btitle-raw%5D/vw_e-golf.jpg
We saw this picture on Fac ebook after one of the VW e-Golf drivers had
shared what happened to him when his e-Golf had an accident with a deer
]

Everyone were OK. After such a big hit even the airbag of the VW e-Golf was
not used.

Kjetil Jystad was driving his VW e-Golf in Moelv in Norway, when a deer
tried to crouch his e-Golf. I asked Kjetil if I can share this picture with
TorqueNews readers. He graciously agreed. I don't have many details, except
what Kjetil wrote.

Happy to report no airbag was used. The roe deer tried to crouch I guess,
went under the car. Luckily no damage to the passengers or battery pack. But
the damages is estimated to approximately 50,000 Norwegian Krones (about
6,765.03 USD according to XE.com) and is covered by car insurance, writes
Jystad.

Looks like it was the end for the deer.
There have always been questions about the safety of electric cars. Here is
one example that EVs like the VW e-Golf could handle the safety well. In
fact, see how Chevy Volt [pih] handles a crash [ 
http://www.torquenews.com/1/chevy-volt-owner-only-gets-minor-bruises-after-being-hit-mac-truck
].  [© torquenews.com]
...
http://folk.uio.no/atlemy/ril.htm
Roe deer - C. capreolus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_deer
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack#Japanese_Kamikaze
Kamikaze attack
...
https://www.fac ebook.com/public/Kjetil-Jystad
Kjetil Jystad  Hedmark County, Norway | Oil  Energy  151 connections




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http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/May/Norwegian-EV-initiatives-to-continue-until-2017/0438019816
Norwegian EV initiatives to continue until 2017
http://ecomento.com/2015/05/14/norway-to-stick-with-electric-car-subsidies/

http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/technology/hydro-quebec-research-partnership-touts-higher-density-ev-battery-147960/
hydroquebec.com nonflammable-electrolyte no-cobalt metallic-li battery

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/13/zero-motorcycles-italy/
The complete Zero electric motorcycles line will be available in Italy

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ubco-2x2-the-two-wheel-drive-electric-enduro-bike-video-95352.html
Ubco 2x2 e-bicycle feels like an e-motorcycle r:100-150km ts:45kph (v)

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2015/05/electric_car_charging_available_at_hunterdon_medic.html
EVSE outside the parking garage @Hunterdon Medical Center NJ
+
EVLN: Determining the residual value of a Nissan Leaf EV


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[EVDL] EVent: Victory e-motorcycle racing @iomtt.com Races 6/10 IsleOfMan UK

2015-05-18 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.cyclenews.com/45/33951/Racing-Article/Victory-Motorcycles-to-Race-Prototype-Electric-Motorcycle-at-the-Isle-of-Man-TT-Races.aspx
Victory Motorcycles to Race Prototype Electric Motorcycle at the Isle of Man
TT Races
By Press Release | 5/16/2015

[images  
http://images.cyclenews.com/photogalleries/VictoryIOMTT2.jpg

http://images.cyclenews.com/photogalleries/VictoryIOMTT.jpg
]

This is a press release from TT Press Office

Medina, MN (May 12, 2015) - Victory Motorcycles is announcing their
intention to race at the 2015 Isle of Man TT Races fueled by Monster Energy
on a Victory electric race prototype motorcycle.

The prototype electric race bikes will be piloted by William Dunlop of the
legendary Dunlop dynasty and by Lee Johnston known in the racing world as
General Lee.

[image] Lee Johnston (left) and William Dunlop (right).
Victory Racing will compete in the Isle of Man TT electric class, marking
the first time that Victory Motorcycles has entered a professional
motorcycle-racing event in Europe and raced an electric motorcycle. Parker,
the world's leading diversified manufacturer of motion and control
technologies and systems, is providing the race-proven, high-performance GVM
PMAC motors for both machines.

The entire Victory team is excited to make history with this effort, said
Rod Krois, Victory General Manager. We know that William Dunlop's
experience and the continued Victory Motorcycles development of this
electric race bike through work with Parker will propel us into a strong
future with electric motorcycles.

The SES TT Zero Challenge class event for electric motorcycles is a one-lap
race round the island's 37.73-mile Mountain Course scheduled for Wednesday,
June 10, 2015.

I'm more than excited to race this prototype at the Isle of Man, said
William Dunlop. Electric powertrains have many advantages, and the Isle of
Man is one of the greatest tests in motorcycle racing.

Lee Johnston will be riding the second entry for Victory Racing in the SES
TT Zero Race and said, I'm excited to make history by racing the new
Victory electric race prototype. It's thrilling to be part of the emerging
electric motorcycle movement.

[images] Ben Furnish, Marketing Manager for Parker Hannifin said, Parker is
thrilled to be involved with Victory Motorcycles in this historic event with
these talented riders. We look forward to working with Victory to develop
high performance powertrains for electric motorcycles.

The Victory Racing prototype electric race bike features a dedicated
electric racing motor and power cells as well as highly sophisticated
electric controls to maximize the top power, power delivery, and durability
under racing conditions. Victory engineers have further refined the
electronics and chassis for the upcoming race with private test sessions in
North America.

Victory Motorcycles will host a continuous news feed of updates and photos
from the Isle of Man TT and will have more information available on the
Victory electric prototype race bike at www.VictoryMotorcycles.com. Be sure
to follow Victory on Twitter @VictoryBikes and on Fac ebook at fac
ebook.com/VictoryMotorcycles for additional updates. To learn more about
Parker and their production version of the GVM traction motors visit
http://promo.parker.com/promotionsite/hybrid-electric-vehicle/us/en/home.
[© 2015 CycleNews]
...
http://www.motorcycle.com/features/victory-race-electric-prototype-isle-man-tt.html
Victory To Race Electric Prototype At Isle Of Man TT
...
http://www.iomtt.com/News/2015/May/12/Victory-Motorcycles-TT-Zero-Challenge.aspx
Isle of Man TT electric class




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[EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs

2015-05-18 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098277_colorados-electric-car-credit-applies-to-used-cars-too
Colorado's Electric-Car Credit: Applies To Used Cars Too
By John Voelcker  May 13, 2015

[images  
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-nissan-leaf_100473864_m.jpg
2015 Nissan Leaf

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla-roadster-recharging-at-denver-international-airport-from-solardave-blog_100305292_m.jpg
Tesla Roadster recharging at Denver International Airport, from SolarDave
blog
]

The checkerboard pattern of constantly changing electric-car incentives and
fees among the 50 American states often baffles outsiders.

And as states go, Colorado has a mixed record.

But its electric-car incentive turns out to have a quirk not shared by any
other state, as far as we can determine.

That is the eligibility of its electric-car purchase tax credit not just to
new cars, but also to used cars on which the credit hasn't previously been
claimed.

That largely applies to electric cars imported from other outside Colorado.

That state's electric-car purchase tax credit lets taxpayers claim a credit
for 75 percent of the premium over a comparable gasoline car, up to a
maximum of $6,000, for purchasing a battery-electric or plug-in hybrid
vehicle.

According to a Colorado electric-car advocate who asked to remain anonymous,
a Colorado resident can claim that credit on any electric car whose Vehicle
Identification Number (VIN) hasn't previously been submitted to the program.

That means that, in theory, a Colorado resident could travel to California
to buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that had been registered there for three
years--the time required to claim that state's electric-car purchase rebate.

Our source says that the buyer could then truck it to Colorado, register it
as a used car, and legally claim that state's tax credit on the year's tax
return.

That quirk aside, two years ago, Colorado was rated the most electric
car-friendly of six Southwestern states studied by the Southwest Energy
Efficiency Project (SWEEP).

On the other hand, Colorado is one of several states that have instituted a
special registration fee on electric cars to compensate for the gasoline
taxes they don't pay.

But in Colorado, it's among the lowest, at just $50 per year.

Better yet, $20 of each car's annual fee goes to the state's Electric
Vehicle Grant Fund, which pays for public charging stations and other
infrastructure.

At the behest of the Colorado Automobile Dealers Association, the state was
one of the earliest to change its franchise laws to prohibit Tesla Motors
from opening additional Tesla Stores within the state.

That took place back in March 2010, as the association's president Tim
Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we
published in October 2012.

If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to get
more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do
exactly that.

A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes for
the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased (though,
admittedly, that car is hardly likely to be exported in exchange).
[© greencarreports.com]
...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084155_why-electric-car-owners-should-be-happy-for-new-colorado-tax
Electric-Car Owners Should Be Happy For New Colorado Tax (May 2013)
...
http://www.ngtnews.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.10753#.VVN-fcb4CMo
Pennsylvania Extends Alt-Fuel Vehicle Rebate Program
[May 13, 2015]  Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) and battery
electric vehicles (EVs) that have battery system capacities equal or greater
than 10 kWh - including models ...
...
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/16/used-ev-tax-incentive-colorado/
You can score a used EV tax incentive in Colorado
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=electric+vehicle+tax+credit
Electric vehicle tax credit




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{brucedp.150m.com}



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[EVDL] EVLN: Determining the residual value of a Leaf EV

2015-05-18 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.torquenews.com/1/what-determines-residual-value-nissan-leaf
What Determines The Residual Value of Nissan LEAF
By Armen Hareyan  2015-05-13

[image  
http://www.torquenews.com/sites/default/files/image-%5Buid%5D/%5Btitle-raw%5D/2014_nissan_leaf_residual_value.jpg
(screen shot of page showing residual values over time)
]

Since there are more and more used Nissan LEAFs for sale, one wonders how
the residual market value of LEAF EVs are determined.

In this picture you see the residual value of 2014 Nissan LEAF 5dr HB S,
estimated by Cars.com. But there are issues related to battery replacement
and battery life, which I don't know if are included while calculating the
2014 LEAF's residual value. I asked the question to some Nissan LEAF owners
and here is what they commented [
https://www.fac ebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/871431416247854/
].

Thomas Crummett, who earlier blogged on how he uses his Nissan LEAF's trip
computer [
http://www.torquenews.com/1/how-i-use-my-nissan-leafs-trip-computer
], writes that residual value is the amount the financing company owes on
the vehicle. If you get a 3-year lease with $0 down and $100/mo, the
residual will be the sale value - $3600. Or, more accurately, it would be
the purchased price minus all payments. Often this is over KBB/resale value,
and with Electric Vehicles, it's often off by thousands.

Battery vs EV Residual Value
However, one problem, that LEAF drivers were pointing out related to Nissan
LEAF's residual value is the constantly improving battery technology. In
general, a big unknown when it comes to resale value of electric vehicles is
battery degradation and the cost of replacing the battery pack. Due to the
constantly improving battery technology and the EV technology in general,
the LEAF had never held value since its original release, writes Melina
Hristova, referring to lizard battery to address higher temperature
climates tolerance as an example. However, we have to point that Nissan has
addressed this problem [
http://www.torquenews.com/2250/replacement-battery-cost-bodes-well-used-leaf-market
] with aggressive pricing of Nissan LEAF replacement batteries. How well
it's working, I don't know.

Victor Sfo who lives in San Franciso, says he never had an overheating issue
with his LEAF's battery. Crummett replied back and explained that any time
it's over ~90, your battery will suffer. Just because it hasn't immediately
failed or significantly degraded does not mean you wouldn't benefit from an
improved chemistry. Definitely much more significant in areas like Arizona,
Crummett writes.

Hristova replied back and wrote that there was a reason Nissan decided to
improve the battery chemistry. If you are down to 9 bars and getting only
50 miles out of a full charge, the adjusted warranty means nothing. You are
waiting like many to lose that 4th bar, so you can claim warranty
replacement, and struggle to make your commutes and rounds like many. Not to
mention, pre-owned LEAFS with even one missing bar are sitting unsold at
dealerships for months, no matter how low the price is, while the value of
the car continue to drop almost weekly, she explains.

Interestingly, Luke Ottaway, at the time was a fellow in automotive
engineering at the Clemson University International Center for Automotive
Research, says that EV Battery degradation in extreme temperatures might not
be as bad as AAA says [
http://www.torquenews.com/2250/battery-degradation-extreme-temperatures-might-not-be-bad-aaa-says
].

EV Residual Value and Market Conditions
Brian Henderson redirects the conversation pointing out how important the
market conditions are when determining anything's residual value. He
correctly writes that the residual value depends on the market conditions
at the time the lease was initialed. Like interest rates on a loan; they
vary based on a number of market factors … no one magical formula.

David Laur agrees with him saying Brian is right. The value of anything is
what people are willing to pay for such item. With other incentives
available for new LEAFs, older ones can be tough to sell. In most cases,
used LEAFs can be several thousand less than the residual on the lease. If
you are in a lease and its about to end and you cannot negotiate a lower
buyout, then let them take it and go buy a used one. You will likely save a
ton.
[© torquenews.com]




For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/May/Norwegian-EV-initiatives-to-continue-until-2017/0438019816
Norwegian EV initiatives to continue until 2017
http://ecomento.com/2015/05/14/norway-to-stick-with-electric-car-subsidies/

http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/technology/hydro-quebec-research-partnership-touts-higher-density-ev-battery-147960/
hydroquebec.com nonflammable-electrolyte no-cobalt metallic-li battery

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/13/zero-motorcycles-italy/
The complete Zero electric motorcycles line will be available in Italy


Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread Roland via EV
   
To determine what size and load rating that is require for a vehicle, first 
find out what the static load that is on each wheel and tire.  

 

Lets say the vehicle weighs 3000 lbs and the weight distribution is 50/50.  
Meaning 1500 lbs on each axle or 750 lbs on each wheel and tire. 

 

In choosing a wheel, it is recommended to add a percentage over the actual load 
on each wheel or about 1.25% over the load on the tire and wheel.   For are 
example of a 750 lb load rating, choose a tire with a minimum of 1000 lb max 
load rating. 

 

Also choose a wheel with the same load rating as the tire.  

 

Lets say the load rating of the tire is 1000 lbs max at 40 psi, and you only 
have 750 lbs load on that tire, this does not mean to air the tire to 40 psi.  
To determine the best psi setting to use, test the tire deflection rate by 
doing the following test: 

 

Jack the tire off grade and air it up to the maximum psi rating that's on the 
side of the tire.  Now lower the tire to where it touches the ground.  Measure 
from the ground to the rim of the wheel.  Record this measurement.  Now lower 
the tire to the ground putting full weight of the vehicle on the ground and 
measure again to the same reference point.  

 

Lets say it reads 0.5 inch difference between the full load and unloaded weight 
of the vehicle.  The 0.5 inch deflection is about the standard that is use for 
most vehicles.  If the deflection rate is more than 0.5 inch than add some air. 
 

 

Some truckers may use a deflection rate at about 0.385 inch or 3/8 inch for 
smooth highway surfaces to decrease fuel usage.  I have tried the 3/8 inch 
deflection rate, but it gives a very harsh ride and on rough roads, it does not 
allow the tire to roll smoothly over wavy roads. 

 

If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is 
recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick that 
goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go thru the 
wheel. 

 

Roland 


- Original Message - 

From: Lawrence Rhodes via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org 

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:10 AM

Subject: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.




MICHELIN ENERGY SAVER 155/65R14 75SES2: This is the best tire I can get from 
Michelin. Does everyone agree that it is hard to get a more efficient and 
narrow tire? If this is so what super light rim should I use. If not is there a 
better tire to use. Each wheel will only have to support 300 to 400 pounds. The 
car or trike will be based on these tires so the rim must be very light. Would 
Insight rims be a place to start? I'm trying to use off the shelf parts so 
building and maintaining the vehicle will be easy. Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread tomw via EV
The numbers you post for Tesla do not include charger losses, the 216 Wh/mile
does.  The 196 Wh/mile number should be compared.  Either way 216 or 196 is
far less energy/mile than a Tesla S uses, so more efficient at moving one
human around, which is the typical occupancy.  

Maybe you are considering efficiency as energy/mile-weight.  Then the Tesla
would be 325/4750 lb = 0.068 to 375/4750 = 0.079 and my car would be
196/2260 = 0.087, so the Tesla moves a unit weight more efficiently than my
car assuming those numbers represent the same 50% mix of highway and city
driving. 



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Michael Kadie via EV
The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in 
general.  Above 45 mph aerodynamics starts being more important than weight. 
This is why the the heavy first generation Toyota prius has good highway 
MPG.  In general the stop and go nature of travel below 45 mph overwhelms 
the greater efficiency.
We used a hill between my house and shop to work on the aerodynamics of my 
car.  After playing with cardboard and tape (then later vinyl) we increased 
the coast downhill speed by 15 mph and decreased my 1/8 mile time by 2/10 
with the same trap speed.  After this my 2000 pound Daytona-look-a-like went 
from around 350 wh/mile to 312 wh/mile driving 15 miles with 6 stop lights 4 
stop signs and a large hill and no-regeneration in both directions.  This 
was testing done for X-prize competition and was well measured.



-Original Message- 
From: tomw via EV

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:09 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range 
EV4the masses


The numbers you post for Tesla do not include charger losses, the 216 
Wh/mile

does.  The 196 Wh/mile number should be compared.  Either way 216 or 196 is
far less energy/mile than a Tesla S uses, so more efficient at moving one
human around, which is the typical occupancy.

Maybe you are considering efficiency as energy/mile-weight.  Then the Tesla
would be 325/4750 lb = 0.068 to 375/4750 = 0.079 and my car would be
196/2260 = 0.087, so the Tesla moves a unit weight more efficiently than my
car assuming those numbers represent the same 50% mix of highway and city
driving.



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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is 
 recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick 
 that goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go 
 thru the wheel.

To save on (unsprung!) weight and expense, a fabric covering might be 
preferable. At least at one point, they were commonly available for bicycles, 
though I haven't seen as many recently. Superficially resembles a solid carbon 
disc wheel.

The basic idea would be a wire hoop the same size as the wheel and a round 
sheet of fabric stretched around it like a drum. Clips on the extremes of the 
spokes can hold the hoop in place. Depending on how the wheel is mounted to the 
axle and the like, you might also need an hole with a grommet in the center.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread paul dove via EV
I think you are wrong.
The rule of thumb is weight / 10.
For your car 2260/10=226 Wh/m
You claim 216 so this fits.
Tesla weighs 4700 lbs so it should use 470 Wh/m but it's between 325 and 375 
Wh/m for most people.
That comes to a 20% increase in efficiency over your car.
  From: tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 9:51 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range 
EV4the masses
   
At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency.  My 2260 lb ev
5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50%
travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph.  Charger efficiency, measured several
times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding
charger losses.  

What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed
vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them.  A range
of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20%
DoD, and not too much increase in vehicle weight due to this larger pack
size - so higher specific energy cells than the 103 kWh/kg it presently has. 
This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need
significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles.  I expect like others
gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. 



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Ben Goren via EV
We must be using different terminology.

As best I understood it, the hub is the center of the wheel where the axle 
connects. The hubcap covers the hub. And I thought that hub motors are in the 
same basic location as the hubcap, with either the stator or rotor in the wheel 
and the other half in the axle.

Unsprung weight is the wheels and that which is fixed to them. Sprung weight is 
the frame and that which is fixed to it. The springs connect the two. 
Components, such as axles, that are fixed to both frame and wheels contribute 
some of their weight to each.

At absolute best, an axle motor would be partially sprung and partially 
unsprung. But once you put the motor in the wheel, in the hub, it's entirely 
unsprung.

b

On May 18, 2015, at 8:35 AM, Mark Grasser via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung
 weight.
 
 .
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
 Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM
 To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
 EV4the masses
 
 Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors?
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
 EV4the masses
 
 On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are 
 sprung.
 
 Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 18 May 2015 at 11:35, Mark Grasser via EV wrote:

 Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung
 weight.
 

I'm not positive, but I think the car's website has it backward.  

I think the following is mostly correct; engineers please set me right if 
not.

The body of a vehicle is sprung mass, because it's suspended on springs.  
The wheels are unsprung mass, unless you count the limited resiliency of the 
tires.  Old fashioned solid axles are unsprung mass.  In a modern car, some 
suspension components are unsprung mass.  A motor mounted in the wheel or 
fastened to a solid axle is (a fair bit of) unsprung mass.  

A motor mounted to the vehicle body, driving the wheels through a flexible 
axle shaft, is sprung mass.  In this case, the drive axles are partly sprung 
and partly unsprung, but I don't know how to calculate the proportions.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range.EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Bill Woodcock via EV

You have it backwards.  Unsprung weight refers to the weight which has no 
suspension between it and the ground (tire, wheel, perhaps some or all of the 
axle, diff, and driveshaft), while the spring weight is the portion which is 
riding on springs (chassis, body, passengers, battery, etc.)

One minimizes unsprung weight in order to avoid using too much energy moving 
the car up and down over bumps and potholes and so forth, among other reasons. 


-Bill


 On May 18, 2015, at 16:35, Mark Grasser via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung
 weight.
 
 .
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
 Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM
 To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
 EV4the masses
 
 Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors?
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range
 EV4the masses
 
 On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are 
 sprung.
 
 Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

MICHELIN ENERGY SAVER 155/65R14 75SES2: This is the best tire I can get from 
Michelin.  Does everyone agree that it is hard to get a more efficient and 
narrow tire?  If this is so what super light rim should I use. If not is there 
a better tire to use.  Each wheel will only have to support 300 to 400 pounds. 
The car or trike will be based on these tires so the rim must be very light.  
Would Insight rims be a place to start?  I'm trying to use off the shelf parts 
so building and maintaining the vehicle will be easy.  Lawrence Rhodes


I have no info on that particular tire. But I do with the Bridgestone 
Potenza RE92 175/65R14 84S XL. This was the special low rolling 
resistance tire that came on our 2001 Prius. When I (and pretty much 
everyone else) changed from this tire to any other, MPG went down by 3-5 
mpg.


As it happens, we just needed to replace the tires on our Prius last 
fall. We bought replacements of exactly this tire from NTB for just 
under $100 each.


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Ben Goren via EV wrote:

The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.

Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?


One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, 
like the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or 
has a universal joint between it and the axle.


Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor 
shaft and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the 
wheel is free to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the 
reduction unit).


Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator 
can be attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with 
the suspension.


Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken.

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 18, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Michael Kadie via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in general.

That makes sense, and it's good news for my PHEV conversions...all-electric 
mode is going to be mostly around town and mostly at or below 45 MPH. Which 
means I should easily hit, for the Mustang at least, my goal of range 
performance roughly comparable to a Chevy Volt

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I thought that at freeway speeds the weight of the vehicle doesn't make 
much difference.  But how slippery it is does.  Unless, of course, 
you're going 186 miles all uphill.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 18-May-15 11:40:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range 
EV4the masses



tomw via EV wrote:
At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 
lb ev
5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 
50%
travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured 
several

times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding
charger losses.


That excellent, Tom. Remind me again what your EV is?

A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, 
assuming 20%

DoD...


Should that be 80% DOD (i.e. 80% of the capacity of the pack used)?

This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely 
will need
significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles.  I expect like 
others

gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope.


There is hope for going 186 miles on 24 KWH. It just requires a very 
efficient design that is scratch-built as an EV, and not just an IC 
conversion or other car built with the same heavy steel construction as 
ICEs.


For example, the Solectria Sunrise went over 200 miles on a charge with 
its 26 KWH nimh pack on *many* occasions, and even exceeded 300 miles 
with James Worden hypermiling at the wheel.

-- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread paul dove via EV
When I built mine I did a spread sheet.
It's all weight until you get up to highway speeds in excess of 65 miles per 
hour on my 86 Celica.

 From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com
 To: paul dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 12:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range 
EV4the masses
   
On May 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The rule of thumb is weight / 10.

Oooh -- that's a very useful suggestion.

How much does aerodynamics change that? In particular, I'm thinking of a 1964 
1/2 Mustang with, I think, roughly a 0.5 cd. Final weight, though, should be 
roughly 3,000 pounds, maybe a bit over. And...a 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile, 
probably 4,000+ pounds and (literally!) the aerodynamics of a shoebox.

I've been figuring that better than 500 Wh / mile would be gravy for either. 
Not that I'm expecting such low numbers, especially for the Mustang; just that, 
if that's what I use, there'll be plenty of Murphy factor such that my 
surprise at the real-world performance will be pleasant.

(And, those who don't know: I'm looking at a PHEV through-the-ground conversion 
for both, retaining the RWD ICE drivetrain and adapting a FWD axle with the 
electric motor connected only to that.)



b

   
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Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?

2015-05-18 Thread David Rees via EV
On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 So...if the insurance company winds up totaling the car, as we suspect they 
 might...can anybody suggest an inexpensive EV suited to a retired couple?

 It would need to be freeway-capable with a reliable won't strand-them 50-ish 
 mile range in a Phoenix summer with modest air conditioning usage.

I see that some have recommended LEAFs, but I personally would have a
hard time recommending one for Phoenix if you need 50 miles of range
on the freeway in the heat and expect to keep that range for years to
come.

Phoenix was the epicenter of rapid capacity loss for the 2011-2012
LEAF, after two years owners could not make it 50 miles per charge.
Now, if you lose enough capacity Nissan will install a new supposedly
heat-tolerant battery (or you can buy one for about $6k installed if
no longer under warranty) that should survive Arizona heat better, but
no-one is really sure how long even the heat-tolerant lizard pack
will last there.

After 4 years in southern California my '11 LEAF with 2 capacity bars
lost will do just about 50 miles on the freeway with light air
conditioning usage from 100% to the first low-battery warning at which
point there's about 12 miles of range left.

In my opinion, all the affordable EVs are risky investments for
someone on a limited budget who need a reliable 50 miles of range.
They might consider a used plug-in hybrid, like a Volt, whose battery
appears to be holding up much better in the heat. But they are also
priced more than the LEAF on the used market.

-Dave
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread Roland via EV
   
One more thing that I did not mention. 

 

Is the square area of the solid rubber sections of the tire face against the 
driving surface.  You calculated the square area of the actual contact surfaces 
of the tire and divided that into the vehicle weight that is on that tire. 

 

The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink the tire and 
than lower it on a white plastic cover board.  You will find that a wide tire 
will have a narrow foot print about 2 inches long for the width of the tire.  
If there is no thread on the tire and the tire is 12 inches wide, then you have 
about 24 square inches of contact rubber. 

 

Lets say the weight on that tire is 720 lbs, therefore 720/24 = 3 lbs per 
square inch which is not good for traction.

 

A narrow tire foot print will be longer than 2 inches which a standard vehicle 
tire may be up to 6 inches long and about 6 inches wide.  Again with only solid 
rubber area, the contact patch would be about 6 x 6 = 36 square inches.

 

Therefore the smaller width tire will have more contact area. 

 

We found out that on dry smooth pavement, 10 lbs per square inch will work, 
while on ice, it takes about 50 lbs per square inch to maintain the traction. 

 

Roland 


- Original Message - 

From: Ben Gorenmailto:b...@trumpetpower.com 

To: Rolandmailto:e...@msn.com ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org 

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:23 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.



On May 18, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Roland via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 If you use a open spoke wheel that allows air to go thru the wheel, it is 
 recommended to install a aluminum deflection plate about 0.125 inch thick 
 that goes between the wheel and the axil flange, to prevent the air to go 
 thru the wheel.

To save on (unsprung!) weight and expense, a fabric covering might be 
preferable. At least at one point, they were commonly available for bicycles, 
though I haven't seen as many recently. Superficially resembles a solid carbon 
disc wheel.

The basic idea would be a wire hoop the same size as the wheel and a round 
sheet of fabric stretched around it like a drum. Clips on the extremes of the 
spokes can hold the hoop in place. Depending on how the wheel is mounted to the 
axle and the like, you might also need an hole with a grommet in the center.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 18, 2015, at 12:54 PM, Roland e...@msn.com wrote:

 The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink the tire 
 and than lower it on a white plastic cover board.

I understand that most track racing uses pyrometers or infrared cameras or the 
like to see which parts of the tire are heating up most, and adjust inflation 
to achieve and maintain maximally uniform load distribution.

I would further suggest that such an approach is ideal for all driving -- 
though, of course, generally impractical. Regardless, if you wish to change the 
dynamics of your tire's contact patch, the only safe way to do so is by 
choosing a different tire. Changing it away from optimal through inflation will 
result in either overinflation or underinflation, both of which can be most 
detrimental to the car's handling.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 18, 2015, at 12:18 PM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 When I built mine I did a spread sheet.

Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share?

Because of the nature of the project, I'm not overly worried about battery 
range, but it's always better to refine expectations when possible.

Thanks!

b
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread Al Lumas via EV

720 / 24 =  30 lbs per square inch.

At 12:54 PM 5/18/2015, Roland via EV wrote:

One more thing that I did not mention.
Is the square area of the solid rubber sections of the tire face 
against the driving surface.  You calculated the square area of the 
actual contact surfaces of the tire and divided that into the 
vehicle weight that is on that tire.
The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink 
the tire and than lower it on a white plastic cover board.  You will 
find that a wide tire will have a narrow foot print about 2 inches 
long for the width of the tire.  If there is no thread on the tire 
and the tire is 12 inches wide, then you have about 24 square inches 
of contact rubber.


 Lets say the weight on that tire is 720 lbs, therefore 720/24 = 3 
lbs per square inch which is not good for traction.
  


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lee Hart wrote:

...have a long shaft on the motor... acts like a swing axle
...have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between motor shaft and wheel...


Ben Goren via EV wrote:

Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example,
heard of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle.


Much of this is defined by marketing, not engineering. If calling it a 
hub motor makes it sell, then it's called a hub motor. You'll find 
lots of examples of bicycle hub motors that have a high-speed motor 
with a gear reduction between it and the wheel, for example. Of course 
in bicycles, unsprung weight is much less of a problem due to the low 
speeds and general lack of suspension anyway.



have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be attached  to
the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the suspension.



Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design.


True direct-drive hub motors pretty much *are* an impossible design. :-/ 
They only work if you're willing to sacrifice cost, performance, 
reliability, etc. just to have a hub motor. That means they only get 
used in specialized applications.



You've either got no room for travel between stator and rotor and
the two catastrophically collide the first time you run over a pebble,
or else you've got an huge gap between the two with some sort of
magnetic levitation keeping the wheels attached to the car and
also somehow spinning.


Indeed, the working examples do have these issues. They'll use McPherson 
strut suspension, so the wheel does move straight up/down. Then some 
kind of planar ball bearing, air cushion, or other means to keep the 
rotor and stator apart, or minimize the consequences of them touching 
(RPM is low, after all).

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote:

 Ben Goren via EV wrote:
 The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung.
 Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work?
 
 One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, like 
 the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or has a 
 universal joint between it and the axle.
 
 Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor shaft 
 and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the wheel is free 
 to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the reduction unit).

Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example, heard 
of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle.

 Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be 
 attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the 
 suspension.

Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design. You've either 
got no room for travel between stator and rotor and the two catastrophically 
collide the first time you run over a pebble, or else you've got an huge gap 
between the two with some sort of magnetic levitation keeping the wheels 
attached to the car and also somehow spinning.

 Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken.

Sounds like the answer

b

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Paul Dove wrote:

When I built mine I did a spread sheet.


Ben Goren via EV wrote:

Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share?


Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance 
calculations. This is a dead version for email purposes (filled out 
for my 1980 LeCar / Lectric Leopard EV), but it shows the equations for 
the calculations. Ben, I can send a live version to your email address 
if you like (let me know off-list).


Renault LeCar HP vs. Speed Calculations by: Lee Hart

HP = rolling resistance + power train loss + aerodynamic drag

where   rolling resistance = R W V / 375
R = tire roll resistance0.008
W = vehicle weight, lbs.2306
V = velocity, mph   5

power train loss = C W V^2 / 375
C = loss coefficient0.0002
I^2R, gear, bearing, stirring etc.  

aerodynamic drag = Cd A V^3 / 146,625
Cd = drag coefficient   0.35
A = frontal area, sq.ft.18

motor   ADC L91   15 HP at   96 volts and   135 amps = 86% efficiency

batteries   12 Concorde 12 v each   weight (lbs)63
33% of curb wt  144 v total amp-hrs (20-hr rate)95
175 minutes at  25 amps Peukert amp-hrs 104
621 minutes at  8 amps  Peukert exponent1.11

MPH 25  30  35  40  45  50  55  60
MotorHP 2.673.745.076.698.6210.91   13.57   16.66
Eff.66% 72% 77% 81% 84% 85% 86% 86%
WattsIn 30393863489261607701955411762   14373
Amps22  28  36  45  56  70  86  105
Minutes 200 153 118 91  71  56  45  36
Miles   83  77  69  61  54  47  41  36

A spreadsheet makes it easy to play what if... games. What if I add a 
battery? What if I change from lead-acid to lithium? What if I reduce 
the weight, or improve aerodynamics, etc.

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.

2015-05-18 Thread Roland via EV
   
I knew you will get it.  Roland 


- Original Message - 

From: Al Lumasmailto:ajlu...@hughes.net 

To: Rolandmailto:e...@msn.com ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org 

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 2:20 PM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheels for efficient vehicle.



720 / 24 =  30 lbs per square inch.

At 12:54 PM 5/18/2015, Roland via EV wrote:
One more thing that I did not mention.
Is the square area of the solid rubber sections of the tire face 
against the driving surface.  You calculated the square area of the 
actual contact surfaces of the tire and divided that into the 
vehicle weight that is on that tire.
The best way we did this when we were road rally racing, is to ink 
the tire and than lower it on a white plastic cover board.  You will 
find that a wide tire will have a narrow foot print about 2 inches 
long for the width of the tire.  If there is no thread on the tire 
and the tire is 12 inches wide, then you have about 24 square inches 
of contact rubber.

  Lets say the weight on that tire is 720 lbs, therefore 720/24 = 3 
 lbs per square inch which is not good for traction.
   

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance
calculations...


Grr... I'm sorry the columns don't line up. It seems like the modern web 
simply can't handle a plain ASCII text file any more. Programs insist on 
changing tabs, double spaces, fonts, etc. which messes up the columns.


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread tomw via EV
Yes I agree that on average over different vehicle types the drag force
generally becomes larger than the rolling resistance force at around 45 mph. 
The Tesla S is interesting in this regard though since it has very low Cd
and not that large of  cross sectional area for such a massive vehicle.  As
a result the drag force doesn't become larger than the rolling resistance
force until significantly higher speed.

The two forces are equal for my car at about 45 mph, drag force is about 50%
larger at 55 mph, and about twice as large at about 65 mph. (Cd and rolling
resistance estimates from roll down tests)



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Mr23 via EV wrote:

Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with
all the other technical information?


That's a good idea. I'll do it. Thanks Mr23!

Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active 
spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the 
results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people 
would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run 
it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the 
EVDL.


--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread tomw via EV
Thanks Lee.  The car is a 2001 Suzuki Swift, www.evalbum.com/3060

Yes it should have been 80% DOD.  Thanks, I corrected it.

I keep the tires at about 36 psi (that's what the tire gauge says anyway). 
Cd = 0.32 and rolling resistance plus brake drag = 0.014 gave best fit to
the roll down data, and the Cd agrees with the spec I found on line.  The
Tesla S has almost exactly the same CdA as this car.  Pretty impressive for
such a large vehicle.  From that, and the much greater weight of the Tesla
you can see drag force will not exceed rolling resistance force until quite
a bit above 45 mph, the cross over point for my car.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread John Lussmyer via EV
On Mon May 18 20:42:44 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
The two forces are equal for my car at about 45 mph, drag force is about 50%
larger at 55 mph, and about twice as large at about 65 mph. (Cd and rolling
resistance estimates from roll down tests)

I really should figure this out for my EV.  95 Ford F250.  Around 6300 lbs.
Anyone have the calcs handy?


--

Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses

2015-05-18 Thread Mr23 via EV
Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with 
all the other technical information?


-Chris

On 5/18/2015 5:17 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Paul Dove wrote:

When I built mine I did a spread sheet.


Ben Goren via EV wrote:

Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share?


Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance 
calculations. This is a dead version for email purposes (filled out 
for my 1980 LeCar / Lectric Leopard EV), but it shows the equations 
for the calculations. Ben, I can send a live version to your email 
address if you like (let me know off-list).


Renault LeCar HP vs. Speed Calculationsby: Lee Hart

HP = rolling resistance + power train loss + aerodynamic drag

whererolling resistance = R W V / 375
R = tire roll resistance0.008
W = vehicle weight, lbs.2306
V = velocity, mph5

power train loss = C W V^2 / 375
C = loss coefficient0.0002
I^2R, gear, bearing, stirring etc.

aerodynamic drag = Cd A V^3 / 146,625
Cd = drag coefficient0.35
A = frontal area, sq.ft.18

motorADC L91   15 HP at   96 volts and   135 amps = 86% efficiency

batteries12 Concorde12 v eachweight (lbs)63
33% of curb wt144 v totalamp-hrs (20-hr rate)95
175 minutes at25 ampsPeukert amp-hrs104
621 minutes at8 ampsPeukert exponent 1.11

MPH2530354045505560
MotorHP2.673.745.076.698.6210.91 13.5716.66
Eff.66%72%77%81%84%85%86%86%
WattsIn303938634892616077019554 1176214373
Amps22283645567086105
Minutes2001531189171564536
Miles8377696154474136

A spreadsheet makes it easy to play what if... games. What if I add 
a battery? What if I change from lead-acid to lithium? What if I 
reduce the weight, or improve aerodynamics, etc.


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