[EVDL] EVLN: Muller's cross-country trip on her e-bicycle solar-trailer

2015-05-27 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://inmenlo.com/2015/05/20/marissa-muller-takes-off-on-cross-country-trip-riding-a-solar-powered-electric-bike/
Marissa Muller takes off on cross country trip riding a solar-powered
electric bike
by Linda Hubbard Gulker  May 20, 2015

[image  
http://inmenlo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Melissa-Muller_solar-bike-ride.jpg
Marissa Muller steadies her solar-powered electric bike
]

Sacred Heart Prep grad Marissa Muller started her professional career as a
journalist at CNN before taking a hard right turn and working for companies
focused on sustainability. As she embarks from Southern California on
Thursday atop a solar-charged electric bike on a cross-country trip — which
she will be chronicling along the way — you could conclude she’s combined
the two pursuits.

“The motto for the trip is ‘get well and do well,'” she said. “Before I took
my sabbatical, I’d been traveling on business three weeks out of the month.
I hit a ‘soft low’ one night in eastern Idaho where I was terribly sick. As
I tossed and turned and wrestled with the sheets, my mind wandered to the
idea of doing a cross country trip.

“I gave myself a one-week deadline to put the logistics together or I’d
abandon the idea.”

Using mainly LinkedIn as a way to connect with people separated by two or
more degrees, she quickly lined up an engineer at the bike company
Specialized and then enlisted the help of another engineer at Sun Power. The
result: the pairing of an electric bicycle and a solar panel.

A Specialized Turbo S electric bike has been re-engineered to rely on solar
energy to charge the battery, which powers the electric assist motor, giving
the bicycle the extra boost of power and speed. As she rides, the battery
will be charged by a lightweight SunPower solar panel, designed with the
same high efficiency solar technology used to generate clean power for
homes, businesses and utilities around the world.

Marissa, who is doing the trip solo, plans to average about 60 miles a day,
stopping at schools, businesses and municipalities along the way to talk
about her journey before ending up in Washington, DC, where she will present
what she learned along the way.

She foresees three types of challenges: the elements themselves,
particularly with the tornado season dragging on, sitting on a bike saddle
daily for three months — “every day is a training day,” she says — and
general safety.

You can follow her journey across the country and get involved with some
charitable aspects by visiting her website (which will go live May 21).

Summing up the trip, she said: “It’s the ultimate demonstration of freedom —
a clean, electric vehicle, powered by decentralized energy, and an open road
of opportunity.”
[© InMenlo 2015]




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[EVDL] EVLN: EV Driving makes motorists calmer

2015-05-27 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/calm-plug/story-26549037-detail/story.html
Keep calm and plug it in
By Plymouth Herald | May 21, 2015

[image  
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276351/Article/images/26549037/10119769-large.jpg
(Adult shows child how to plug in)
]

A NOISE expert from Plymouth is backing claims that driving an electric
vehicle makes motorists calmer. According to research, 70 per cent of
motorists believe that a quieter cabin would help improve their mood and
reduce stress during the time they spend in the car.

The Go Ultra Low campaign say the findings suggest that making journeys in
an electric vehicle – renowned for the quietness of their interiors compared
with road cars powered by internal combustion engines – can help keep driver
and passengers happier.

The findings are the result of new research released by the campaign, set up
by the UK automotive industry and the public sector to highlight the
benefits of ultra low emissions vehicles (ULEVs). The new research also
found that 74 per cent of the UK's car-driving population above 30 years of
age, desire more 'quiet time' in everyday life, with 83 per cent of the
same group believing that Britain is a much noisier place compared with 10
years ago.

According to noise experts, fluctuations in sound levels can have a real
impact on our emotions. Professor Duncan Williams, psycho-acoustician at
Plymouth University, said: Many of the sounds people find most annoying and
stressful are dynamic – this is no surprise as humans are neurologically
'hard-wired' to respond to such noise.

What makes this annoying is when the noises are beyond our control – they
are basically unwelcome intruders into our personal space.

While the research found that the ability to enjoy a 'quiet' car journey is
important to the majority of motorists, eight out of 10 participants also
believed that a reduction in car engine noise would allow them to hold
better conversations with passengers and increase their enjoyment of music.

Professor Williams added: Music has been shown to be a great mediator of
moods. It has a clear effect on the brain, and is often prescribed in
therapeutic contexts.

Tests performed by car manufacturers in the Go Ultra Low consortium showed
that interior noise levels of electric vehicles and their
conventionally-powered equivalents can vary by up to six decibels – a
significantly audible difference.

Motoring journalist and broadcaster Quentin Willson said: When you start
driving an electric vehicle, the first thing you notice is the quietness of
the cabin.

Rather than it being a novelty, this can have a positive effect on your
wellbeing. We all know how stressful car travel can be – I've found the
electric motor can turn journeys into a zen-like experience.
[© plymouthherald.co.uk]




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http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2015/05/17/02AEN20150517001100320.html
LG Chem to supply electric vehicle batteries in China 

http://scroll.in/article/729637/the-man-who-brought-us-the-lithium-ion-battery-at-the-age-of-57-has-an-idea-for-a-new-one-at-92
GoodenoughThe man who brought us the lithium-ion battery

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/25/invest-in-fastned-charge-your-ev-free-forever/
$27k fastned.nl offers shareholders lifetime free EVSE charging

http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/green/blog/bs-md-electric-charging-20150513-story.html
Baltimore-MD moves to expand EVSE in municipal garages
+
EVLN: etukusa.com seeks2 wake-up U.S. to e-tuk-tuk world around them


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[EVDL] EVLN: etukusa.com seeks2 wake-up U.S. 2 e-tuk-tuk world around them

2015-05-27 Thread brucedp5 via EV


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3092291/Tuk-tuk-taxi-maker-aims-make-inroads-US.html
Will tuk-tuks replace taxis in the US? Company pushing popular Asian
rickshaws as a cheaper, greener alternative to cabs
By Associated Press  22 May 2015

[images  
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/22/13/6YiBNORCd-HSK1-3092291-In_this_photograph_taken_Friday_Feb_27_2015_Colin_Sommers_left_d-a-34_1432298907920.jpg
Company: Colin Sommers, left, director of engineering for eTuk USA, Walid
Mourtada, center, chief executive officer, and Michael Fox show off one of
their company's electric Tuk-Tuk models being prepared for delivery

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/22/13/6YiBEawVOHSK2-3092291-image-a-38_1432299129212.jpg
Inspection: A worker checks the roof on an electric Tuk-Tuk being prepared
for export at the Denver eTuk factory in northeast Denver

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/22/14/28FAB7FF0578-3092291-image-a-1_1432301035413.jpg
Familiar sight: Tuk-tuks are ubiquitous in Asia, swarming the bustling
streets of Bangkok, New Delhi and Beijing. A tuk-tuk is seen here in India

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/22/19/video-undefined-28FD755B0578-499_636x356.jpg
Are Tuk-tuk's the future? Tuk Tuk Factory shows off their fleet

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/22/13/6YiBNxkng-HSK1-3092291-image-a-39_1432299135539.jpg
Carpool: Colin Sommers, left, director of engineering of eTuk USA, joins
Walid Mourtada, center, chief executive officer, and Michael Fox, in one of
the electric Tuk-Tuk models that the trio import and sell domestically

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/22/13/6YiBF7igKHSK2-3092291-image-a-40_1432299140198.jpg
Technology: The nameplate designates the electrically-powered version of the
Tuk-Tuk being readied for delivery at the Denver eTuk manufacturing plant

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/22/14/28FAB8080578-3092291-image-a-2_1432301091752.jpg
Packed: A tuk-tuk in Sri Lanka is seen stuffed with bananas and boxes 

video  flash
]

-Tuk-tuk taxis are ubiquitous in Asia, swarming the bustling streets of
Bangkok, New Delhi and Beijing 

-The Tuk Tuk Factory has signed a licensing agreement with Denver-based eTuk
USA to allow the company to manufacture and sell an electric version

-The company's founders hope the eco-friendly vehicles will become the next
hip mode of transportation across the country

-Company eTuk Denver has launched a call-and-demand shuttle service in
downtown Denver after receiving approval from the city

-They operate mostly in a restricted downtown area — and are banned from
providing service to the nearby Broncos' football stadium

-The tuk-tuk has faced some pushback from a handful of cab companies and
other shuttle operators and raised concerns about the vehicles' safety 

They're ubiquitous in Asia, swarming the bustling streets of Bangkok, New
Delhi and Beijing.

Now, a company that manufactures the tuk-tuk — the three-wheeled motorized
rickshaws that have moved the masses for more than half a century — aims to
make inroads in the United States.

The Tuk Tuk Factory, based in Amsterdam, has signed a licensing agreement
with Denver-based eTuk USA to allow the company to manufacture and sell an
electric version of the vehicle. The company's founders hope the
eco-friendly vehicles, a far cry from the loud, pollution-spewing versions
common in Asia and South America, will become the next hip mode of
transportation for urban dwellers and tourists across the country.

It's too soon to know if Americans will embrace tuk-tuks, but Michael Fox,
director of sales and marketing for eTuk USA, says the company has been
selling the vehicles across the country to individuals, marketing companies
and food vendors for between $16,950 and $25,000, depending on how they are
customized.

The three partners' other company, eTuk Denver, launched a call-and-demand
shuttle service in downtown Denver after receiving approval from the
Colorado Public Utilities Commission, which regulates for-hire
transportation services.

The service is the latest entrant into an increasingly crowded field of
transportation options that includes pedicabs, car-sharing services such as
Uber and Lyft and golf-cart taxis.

Fox is banking that the tuk-tuk's open-air design will help it stand out.

'When you look at a golf cart and you look at a tuk-tuk, which has more curb
appeal?' he asked.

But like car-sharing services, the tuk-tuk has faced some pushback from a
handful of cab companies and other shuttle operators — and raised concerns
about the vehicles' safety.

Terry Bote, a commission spokesman, said several cab and shuttle companies
were successful in restricting where the tuk-tuks can operate, what types
and how many vehicles can be used and how many passengers each vehicle can
carry.

The tuk-tuks operate mostly in a restricted downtown area — and are banned
from providing scheduled service to the nearby Broncos' football stadium, a
lucrative destination for the 

Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Paul Dove via EV
We are still in the innovator stage that's all. No speculation needed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations


Sent from my iPad

 On May 27, 2015, at 1:37 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 On 26 May 2015 at 6:50, tomw via EV wrote:
 
 Plus today with instant everything, putting up with inconvenience is
 sooo yesterday.
 
 I think you're on to something here.  
 
 The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant 
 torque, zero emissions, refuel at home  - just don't seem to be all that 
 important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have 
 gotten better at a lot of these things.  (Who would have thought it?)
 
 I think it's fair to say that consumers buy their vehicles for both rational 
 and emotional reasons.
 
 The rational factors are easy - cost, utility, convenience.  
 
 EVs are going to lose on utilty, mostly because of their limited range.  
 
 They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see 
 only the up-front cost.  Without aggressive subsidies - and those are 
 subject to political whim - EVs are in trouble.
 
 Convenience?  At the moment, how EVs fare depends on which you consider more 
 convenient, going to a gas station or remembering to plug it in.  
 
 But something else might enter here.  Consumers, especially wealthy ones, 
 perceive themselves as busy busy busy even when they actually have lots of 
 leisure.  They embrace convenience and are willing to pay for it.   I think 
 you're right that EVs will succeed as a vehicle class at least partly on how 
 universally convenient they are.
 
 One obvious way to increase EVs' convenience is for ICEVs convenience to 
 fall hard and fast.  
 
 Buying fuel was hugely inconvenient in some areas of the US in the mid-
 1970s.  In many areas, shortage-driven panic buying created blocks-long, 
 hours-long waiting lines at filling stations.  College students earned 
 pocket money sitting in impatient and busy suits' cars, waiting for their 5 
 or 10 gallon gasoline allotment.  
 
 For many reasons, I don't think that that particular scenario is likely to 
 happen again.  Fuel prices will eventually rise again, but that alone isn't 
 enough to make large numbers of people desert ICEVs for EVs.  Look what 
 people are willing to pay for gasoline in Europe.  
 
 So, let's think of some ways that EVs might become radically more 
 convenient, ways that ICEVs simply can't match.  
 
 Here's one: transparent inductive charging.  Your garage has a standardized 
 inductive charger in the floor; you park the car and it fuels itself without 
 any active participation from you.  (I know about the cost and efficiency 
 issues.  C'mon, dream with me for a minute. ;-)
 
 What if building codes required every new house or major renovation to 
 include a universal, standards-defined inductive EV charger in the garage 
 floor?  Maybe you could include a square-area threshold at first, so that 
 they'd mostly go into more expensive houses where the cost would be a 
 trivial fraction.  Mass production would eventually drive down the cost, and 
 the square-area threshold could be lowered.
 
 Public parking lots might also be reqired to provide some minimum percentage 
 of EV slots with this charging.  Your EV could automatically sip electrons 
 while you shopped.  The EV would have a unique ID tag.  Each month the cost 
 would be billed to your credit card.  You'd never touch a gas pump or a 
 charger cord.
 
 Ads for compatible EVs could crow, No more smelly gas stations ever, and 
 you never have to plug it in!
 
 Is this scheme really practical?  Probably not. Passing legislation is a 
 high bar in the US these days, so public money for this would be hard to 
 get.  Still, I've seen additions to building codes that add costs for 
 builders go through.  IMO there's a faint glimmer of hope for getting 
 something like this into the codes - at least in some states.
 
 Something to think about.  And anyway, we're dreaming here. ;-)
 
 Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match?  
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread John Blair via EV
On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

 Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match?  


David,

Already there for me. Nearest gas station is 20 minutes away from us in West 
Sonoma County, California.  If I am just using one of my EV's locally, I have 
to allocate an hour to go get gas.  When people ask me how long it takes to 
fill my car, I tell them about 30 seconds.  I get out, plug it in and go into 
the house.  It is full the next time I need it.  Also no gasoline smell when 
you are dressed up.  In our little town of 1200 I am seeing more and more 
Leaf's, Model S's, Smart Cars, RAV4-EV's (1st and 2nd generation), and others.  
I saw my first Spark in town yesterday. I am sure that convenience is part of 
that for us.


John

---
John G. Blair Studio
Occidental, California
(about an hour north of the Bay Area)
http://www.jgblairphoto.com - general photography
http://www.johngblairstudio.com - commercial and stock photography
http://www.johngblair.com - author website

 




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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Peri Hartman wrote:

And don't forget the battery replacement cost - perhaps after 10 years or 70K 
miles?


Ben Goren via EV wrote:

It seems that batteries are lasting at least as long as ICE engines and 
transmissions, and replacement new batteries are guaranteed to be much cheaper 
than replacement new engines or transmissions.


It's too soon to know how long the batteries will really last. All we 
have are projections.


But we *do* know that the EPA requires that the batteries be covered 
under warranty for 8 years or 100,000 miles. That's good for consumers; 
but maybe bad for the car companies that make mistakes and so have to 
eat the warranty replacement costs.


Nissan already had a case of this with their early Leaf packs. It's not 
encouraging that they worked hard to weasel out of covering them.


Another worrisome thing: The batteries in all the auto company produced 
EVs are custom. Will a replacement pack even be *available* in 10 years? 
Remember the auto company produced EVs from around the year 2000? 
Batteries are totally unavailable for all of them.

--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Al Lumas via EV
The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax 
on each mile you drive your electric vehicle.
To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) 
has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are 
considering it.

Al

At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own 
an EV.   If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, 
over its life the EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a 
lot and the  the cost of fuel rises.


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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
And don't forget the battery replacement cost  - perhaps after 10 years 
or 70K miles?  I think these hurdles will diminish but they are real for 
now.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Al Lumas via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 27-May-15 8:52:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.


The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on 
each mile you drive your electric vehicle.
To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) 
has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are 
considering it.

Al

At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own 
an EV.   If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, 
over its life the EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot 
and the  the cost of fuel rises.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Muller's cross-country trip on her e-bicycle solar-trailer

2015-05-27 Thread harry henderson via EV
does anyone know if she needs housing along the way? i'm guessing not with that 
sleek website and many backers

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


On Wed, 5/27/15, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Muller's cross-country trip on her e-bicycle
solar-trailer
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2015, 3:34 AM
 
 
 
 
http://inmenlo.com/2015/05/20/marissa-muller-takes-off-on-cross-country-trip-riding-a-solar-powered-electric-bike/
 Marissa Muller takes off on cross country trip riding a
 solar-powered
 electric bike
 by Linda Hubbard Gulker  May 20, 2015
 
 [image  
 
http://inmenlo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Melissa-Muller_solar-bike-ride.jpg
 Marissa Muller steadies her solar-powered electric bike
 ]
 
 Sacred Heart Prep grad Marissa Muller started her
 professional career as a
 journalist at CNN before taking a hard right turn and
 working for companies
 focused on sustainability. As she embarks from Southern
 California on
 Thursday atop a solar-charged electric bike on a
 cross-country trip — which
 she will be chronicling along the way — you could conclude
 she’s combined
 the two pursuits.
 
 “The motto for the trip is ‘get well and do well,'”
 she said. “Before I took
 my sabbatical, I’d been traveling on business three weeks
 out of the month.
 I hit a ‘soft low’ one night in eastern Idaho where I
 was terribly sick. As
 I tossed and turned and wrestled with the sheets, my mind
 wandered to the
 idea of doing a cross country trip.
 
 “I gave myself a one-week deadline to put the logistics
 together or I’d
 abandon the idea.”
 
 Using mainly LinkedIn as a way to connect with people
 separated by two or
 more degrees, she quickly lined up an engineer at the bike
 company
 Specialized and then enlisted the help of another engineer
 at Sun Power. The
 result: the pairing of an electric bicycle and a solar
 panel.
 
 A Specialized Turbo S electric bike has been re-engineered
 to rely on solar
 energy to charge the battery, which powers the electric
 assist motor, giving
 the bicycle the extra boost of power and speed. As she
 rides, the battery
 will be charged by a lightweight SunPower solar panel,
 designed with the
 same high efficiency solar technology used to generate clean
 power for
 homes, businesses and utilities around the world.
 
 Marissa, who is doing the trip solo, plans to average about
 60 miles a day,
 stopping at schools, businesses and municipalities along the
 way to talk
 about her journey before ending up in Washington, DC, where
 she will present
 what she learned along the way.
 
 She foresees three types of challenges: the elements
 themselves,
 particularly with the tornado season dragging on, sitting on
 a bike saddle
 daily for three months — “every day is a training
 day,” she says — and
 general safety.
 
 You can follow her journey across the country and get
 involved with some
 charitable aspects by visiting her website (which will go
 live May 21).
 
 Summing up the trip, she said: “It’s the ultimate
 demonstration of freedom —
 a clean, electric vehicle, powered by decentralized energy,
 and an open road
 of opportunity.”
 [© InMenlo 2015]
 
 
 
 
 For EVLN posts use:
 http://evdl.org/evln/
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
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http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Muller-s-cross-country-trip-on-her-e-bicycle-solar-trailer-tp4675779.html
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 archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 27, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 And don't forget the battery replacement cost  - perhaps after 10 years or 
 70K miles?

It seems that batteries are lasting at least as long as ICE engines and 
transmissions, and replacement new batteries are guaranteed to be much cheaper 
than replacement new engines or transmissions.

That's two expensive components in an ICE you have to worry about, and only one 
in the EV. EVs are already ahead.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Michael Ross via EV
I think EVs might be a better deal (at least the smaller ones like iMIEV
and Leaf) than solar arrays.  Solar needs subsidies to be a good economic
deal for the owner, hte going rate for electrons makes a difference too.

You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV.
  If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life
the EV may save you  $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the  the cost
of fuel rises.  THere is a lot od foregone maintenance as well with EVs.

Solar at this time, where I live with low cost electrons ($0.10 /kWh), is
not a great investment without subsidies.  Those are threatening to go
away.  But my 2.5 year old system, might pay back like a decent dividend
stock - but only because I got 30% back from the fed and 35% from the state
of NC.  Without the subsidy, it would be more like barely keeping up with
inflation and it better give me 20+ years of trouble free service.

Of course, YMMV; but OEM EVs, if you are the right use case, may be a good
deal.



On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 10:11 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 “/The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the
 instant torque, zero emissions, refuel at home  - just don't seem to be
 all that important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs
 have gotten better at a lot of these things./”

 They sure have! Ice powered vehicles today are very reliable, quiet, and
 powerful compared to a few decades ago.  If maintained properly they can
 remain in service for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles.  You can
 purchase a used one with 30k miles on it for less than half the new cost
 and
 expect to drive it for at least 100k miles relatively trouble free.  That
 is
 very hard for today’s EVs to compete with.  I don’t expect the market for
 EVs to increase much until they can offer similar performance and price.

 “/They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and
 see
 only the up-front cost./”

 That is very much my experience.  Solar panels are a great example.  I live
 in an area that historically has had around 200 sunny days a year.  Solar
 panel cost has dropped to less than ¼ what I paid in 2008, making return on
 investment very short here.  For years I’ve had people remark that I am
 “lucky” that I don’t have to buy fuel, to which I respond that I just paid
 up front, they could do the same.  But they look only at up-front costs,
 and
 can’t get themselves to spend that money even though they could afford it
 and the investment would pay for itself in less than 10 years.  Those same
 people will purchase the most expensive new car they can afford, an
 investment that will depreciate quickly, but that they will derive more
 pleasure and status from.  I think that is a big part of Tesla's success, a
 sexy, cool, high status car.

 But that is for the people who have the discretionary spending.  Most here
 don't. For them its a no-brainer to buy that used ice car and drive it
 for
 more than 100k miles rather than a more expensive EV that has limited range
 and requires purchase of an EVSE.




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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 27, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Solar at this time, where I live with low cost electrons ($0.10 /kWh), is
 not a great investment without subsidies.

That's damned cheap electricity. And, at utility scales, the only thing cheaper 
than solar these days is coal. Given that solar has no maintenance and 
operating costs worth mentioning, it's hardly surprising that solar is a good 
investment for individuals with capital; your capital costs are in roughly the 
same ballpark as that of the utilities, but you don't have to pay all those CEO 
salaries.

CEOs, of course, want you to keep paying their salaries, which is why the 
utilities are trying to jigger their rate schedules such that, no matter how 
many panels you put on your rooftop, you still pay nearly as much per month to 
them. But those days will be very short-lived...utility-scale batteries from 
Tesla are already cheaper than natural gas peaking plants, and their amortized 
cost is competitive over the warranty life of the battery for homeowners, too.

Already today, with both solar and battery prices in freefall for the 
foreseeable future.

b
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[EVDL] On the road again.

2015-05-27 Thread damon henry via EV
After 5 years under the tarp, I put my EV motorcycle back on the road this 
week.  http://evalbum.com/preview.php?vid=497  It's been great fun and I am 
looking forward to a summer of riding.  Both my EV's have been in needing new 
batteries mode for a while now.  My truck http://evalbum.com/1524 is what I 
would really like to see going again, but the old Nicads just don't give me 
enough range anymore to make it worth the cost of keeping it on the road.  
After years of using just about every battery available and understanding the 
pro's and con's of all the different flavors, I am excited to finally be part 
of the lithium crowd.  I purchased 16 Calb CA60ah cells which fit well in my 
existing battery boxes.  These have been sitting on a shelf in a warehouse for 
about 18 months, but they seem to be waking up quite nicely and charging and 
discharging very evenly across the pack.   I do not have any BMS installed, but 
on such a small pack with good access it is easy to be my own BMS
 .   The back battery box I can easily pop the lid off and measure individual 
cells with my DVM.  The front box is packed in a much tighter space and has to 
be slid out to get the top off so I have individual test leads run out of the 
box to do the measuring.  To balance the cells I can charge in series until one 
of the cells reaches my top voltage level then individually bring all the other 
cells up with a hobby charger.  I don't expect to need to do much balancing 
however.  I also don't plan to fully charge or discharge the battery on a 
regular basis.  I plan on charging the cells up to the 3.4 - 3.45 range.  Most 
of my rides are in the 10 mile or less range so with a projected range of 
around 25 miles I'm usually not even dropping below 50% SOC, although I reserve 
the right to go further if I feel like it :)
BTW - I purchased my Calb cells through Don Blazer (theoldcars at aol.com) who 
I know shows up on the list once in a while to offer them to anyone interested. 
 He is local to me which made it convenient, but his pricing, knowledge, and 
integrity are all top notch.  He has a fleet of business vehicles that he uses 
them in for himself and offers them to others at a very good price.  So if you 
are in the market for some new lithium cells he is definitely worth reaching 
out to. 
damon
  
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[EVDL] Lithium install in Tucson

2015-05-27 Thread Rush Dougherty via EV
Hi all,

Some friends here in Tucson bought a S-10 Ranger EV with Nimh a few months ago.
After trying to get the pack working again they decided to go with lithium. They
bought the new CALB cells, 100AH, for a pack total of 345.6v, 108 cells. They
are using the EVIC BMS system (http://ai-displays.com/). One of the problems
they are encountering is that they have to spoof the Ranger into thinking that
there were still 25 modules...

Here's a short video from Marco who is helping to install the system
https://www.facebook.com/MarcoGaxiolaM (you might have to scroll down a little)
right below the video are some pics.

Rush
Tucson AZ




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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV
I just finished reading the article and I came away with the idea that 
the author could have substituted personal computer for battery, or 
laptop for battery, or any of the other technological wonders that only 
existed in the minds of Buck Roger / Star Trek fans.  The question has 
always been one of when do I jump in and trade my abacus for a PC or PC 
for a laptop, or slower model for a faster model?


It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.  
The 2017 model of the Bolt, Leaf and Model E are supposed to have ranges 
of around 200 miles.  Do I buy a Leaf today and borrow an ICE to reach 
an Atlantic Ocean beach?  Do I wait until 2017 when I could reach a 
beach with a newer EV?  Do I wait until 2018 when some poor driver has 
his or her car totaled and I can buy that pack for dimes on the dollar?


Have you ever noticed how some of these titles are inflammatory? The 
author could have gone to:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
and written how EV sales are rising rapidly and we would be replying to:

Re:[EVDL] Design News: Why are Electric Car Sales Rising Rapidly?

If he had plotted out the sales figures he would have seen EV sales 
taking off even in the face of relatively low gasoline prices and so-so 
economic activity:

   USA Worldwide
March 2015: 10,341  41,988
March 2014:  9,650  24,267
March 2013:   7982   N/A
March 2012:   3815   N/A
March 2011:906   N/A

He does have a point about the batteries but my guess is that he wrote 
the article in a trollish manner for clicks and views.  I think he gets 
it but he does have to put food on the table.


Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise 
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that 
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S?  Ans: ~800 
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as 
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.  
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful 
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model 
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in 
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up 
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


Hopefully some of this takes away some of that in your face -ness of 
the article.

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Re: [EVDL] Lithium install in Tucson

2015-05-27 Thread Rush Dougherty via EV
Wups. not an S-10, but a Ford Ranger EV...

Rush
Tucson AZ


 -Original Message-
 From: Rush Dougherty [mailto:r...@ironandwood.org]
 Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 8:56 AM
 To: EVDL (ev@lists.evdl.org)
 Subject: Lithium install in Tucson

 Hi all,

 Some friends here in Tucson bought a S-10 Ranger EV with Nimh a few months
ago. After
 trying to get the pack working again they decided to go with lithium. They
bought the new
 CALB cells, 100AH, for a pack total of 345.6v, 108 cells. They are using the
EVIC BMS
 system (http://ai-displays.com/). One of the problems they are encountering is
that they
 have to spoof the Ranger into thinking that there were still 25 modules...

 Here's a short video from Marco who is helping to install the system
 https://www.facebook.com/MarcoGaxiolaM (you might have to scroll down a
little) right
 below the video are some pics.

 Rush
 Tucson AZ




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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Let's talk about the bell curve.  There are early adopters (us) who are 
excited and ready to buy or build an EV.  There are some less risky 
adopters who are jumping in, too, as is evident from the rising sales 
numbers.  But the vast majority - the hump in the bell curve are 
waiting.


Waiting for what?  It doesn't really matter what they say - as you can 
see there are a number of various opinions and statements from people.  
The only thing that matters is that they are followers.  They won't do 
something until they feel like everyone else is doing it.  That's true 
for any product, behavior, etc. in humanity.  When the masses start 
catching on there'll be a huge woosh - the rising edge of the bell 
curve.


With cell phones, I was part of the masses - not an early adopter.  I 
had my reasons - poor voice quality, too many dropped calls.  They were 
legit reasons.  But the underlying reason is I had a land line and it 
worked well enough and I didn't want to have to deal with a new set of 
issues or problems.  Why rock the boat?  When everyone had a cell 
phone, I got one too.


To finish the bell curve, there the last stragglers.  They will keep 
their old technology (or behavior) until they are forced out.  Can't buy 
a replacement part, product, etc.  Ridiculed for wearing bell bottom 
pants.  Meanwhile, a new technology is already on the rise with its new 
set of early adopters :)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Peter Eckhoff via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 27-May-15 9:03:51 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales 
Better? It's the battery.


I just finished reading the article and I came away with the idea that 
the author could have substituted personal computer for battery, or 
laptop for battery, or any of the other technological wonders that only 
existed in the minds of Buck Roger / Star Trek fans.  The question has 
always been one of when do I jump in and trade my abacus for a PC or PC 
for a laptop, or slower model for a faster model?


It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.  
The 2017 model of the Bolt, Leaf and Model E are supposed to have 
ranges of around 200 miles.  Do I buy a Leaf today and borrow an ICE to 
reach an Atlantic Ocean beach?  Do I wait until 2017 when I could reach 
a beach with a newer EV?  Do I wait until 2018 when some poor driver 
has his or her car totaled and I can buy that pack for dimes on the 
dollar?


Have you ever noticed how some of these titles are inflammatory? The 
author could have gone to:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
and written how EV sales are rising rapidly and we would be replying 
to:


Re:[EVDL] Design News: Why are Electric Car Sales Rising Rapidly?

If he had plotted out the sales figures he would have seen EV sales 
taking off even in the face of relatively low gasoline prices and so-so 
economic activity:

   USA Worldwide
March 2015: 10,341  41,988
March 2014:  9,650  24,267
March 2013:   7982   N/A
March 2012:   3815   N/A
March 2011:906   N/A

He does have a point about the batteries but my guess is that he wrote 
the article in a trollish manner for clicks and views.  I think he gets 
it but he does have to put food on the table.


Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume 
wise and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if 
that pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S?  
Ans: ~800 miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in 
range as well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina 
starting point.  Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am 
I just wishful thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 
model Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to 
drop in anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to 
trade up to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


Hopefully some of this takes away some of that in your face -ness of 
the article.

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

 Here's one: transparent inductive charging.

If we're dreaming, it's a wonderful dream. I don't think it's a very realistic 
dream, but it's certainly wonderful.

As a bonus...going from inductive charging while parking to inductive charging 
on select stretches of highway wouldn't be that big a deal. It's even something 
that could be very beneficial without being close to a perfect solution. Just 
do grab the back of the envelope...if a typical car is consuming 300 Wh/mi at 
60 MPH, that's 18 kW / car. Round up to 20 kW for losses and to make the math 
easier. Even if a roadway could only deliver 5 kW / car, less than many of 
today's in-home chargers, that still extends range by 25%. Your 300-mile-range 
car almost becomes a 400-mile-range car. 

But, honestly?

I think EVs are going to get a _lot_ more popular once 200 miles is the range 
of the base model econobox and 300 miles is not uncommon in top-of-the-line 
models. Rapid charging infrastructure or no. You can put 300 miles of range in 
a 300 Wh/mi car in 8 hours at 220 V / 50 A. Almost nobody drives 300 miles in a 
day, and almost everybody has the car parked at home at least 8 hours a day. 
With even minimal rapid-charging infrastructure, such a car is a direct 
replacement for today's ICE vehicle -- even for vacation road trips. Drive ~250 
miles; four hours into the trip and it's time for a break. Even if it takes 
half an hour to recharge, that's not a problem; most people would be taking 
almost that long just to stretch their legs or maybe grab a bite to eat. And 
when the break is over, you're ready for another four hours of driving before 
you plug into the hotel's charger for the night. If the rapid charging station 
has a restaurant, so much the better. Even today, just look at
  how you automatically expect the middle-of-nowhere gas stations along the 
freeway to have a restaurant of some sort.

We're already expecting the next generation of EVs to be at that 200 mile 
range, and Teslas are already at that 300 mile range.

Which tells me that the only _real_ challenge to EV adoption...is sticker 
price. When the price premium for an EV is comparable to what the price premium 
used to be for an automatic transmission over a standard, that's it.

We can even see a direct parallel in very recent history: hybrid vehicles. They 
used to be much more expensive than their battery-less counterparts; today, 
they're only a bit more expensive and it seems like every other car on the road 
these days is an hybrid -- even a number of SUVs.

Until the past couple months or so, I was decidedly pessimistic about our 
chances for surviving the end of cheap oil. I still don't think it'll be a walk 
in the park...but solar is already cheaper for utilities than anything else but 
coal, and Tesla's utility batteries are already cheaper than any other form of 
peaking production. That means that all kinds of money is now going to shift 
away from fossil fuels and into solar and batteries, simply because the 
utilities that don't do so are going to lose out to those that do. And, more 
importantly, because the CEOs will want to pocket the savings, themselves. That 
will, in turn, _very_ rapidly drive down prices for solar and batteries for the 
rest of us...quickly to the point that the utilities themselves won't be able 
to compete with local generation and ICE vehicles won't be able to compete with 
EVs.

Imagine that, for a moment, so long as we're dreaming -- you've got an EV with 
a ~120 kWh pack and a ~400 mile freeway range. Next to your water heater (or 
wherever) is a ~400 kWh battery that both serves as a dump pack for your EV 
for rapid charging as well as all your other electricity needs. If you don't 
drive, you can go a week or two without sunlight depending on how much of an 
energy hog you are. And your roof is covered with enough solar panels that, 
even in the dead of winter, they'll collect enough that your batteries won't 
actually run out.

I think most any American would consider something like that a very desirable 
luxury life...and I do believe we might actually, after all, be on track for me 
to live long enough to see something like it come to pass.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread tomw via EV
“/The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the
instant torque, zero emissions, refuel at home  - just don't seem to be
all that important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs
have gotten better at a lot of these things./”

They sure have! Ice powered vehicles today are very reliable, quiet, and
powerful compared to a few decades ago.  If maintained properly they can
remain in service for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles.  You can
purchase a used one with 30k miles on it for less than half the new cost and
expect to drive it for at least 100k miles relatively trouble free.  That is
very hard for today’s EVs to compete with.  I don’t expect the market for
EVs to increase much until they can offer similar performance and price.

“/They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see
only the up-front cost./”

That is very much my experience.  Solar panels are a great example.  I live
in an area that historically has had around 200 sunny days a year.  Solar
panel cost has dropped to less than ¼ what I paid in 2008, making return on
investment very short here.  For years I’ve had people remark that I am
“lucky” that I don’t have to buy fuel, to which I respond that I just paid
up front, they could do the same.  But they look only at up-front costs, and
can’t get themselves to spend that money even though they could afford it
and the investment would pay for itself in less than 10 years.  Those same
people will purchase the most expensive new car they can afford, an
investment that will depreciate quickly, but that they will derive more
pleasure and status from.  I think that is a big part of Tesla's success, a
sexy, cool, high status car.  

But that is for the people who have the discretionary spending.  Most here
don't. For them its a no-brainer to buy that used ice car and drive it for
more than 100k miles rather than a more expensive EV that has limited range
and requires purchase of an EVSE.




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Re: [EVDL] Lithium install in Tucson

2015-05-27 Thread Michael Ross via EV
Presumably CALB are still LiFePO4?

Remember - DO NOT CHARGE them fully and let them sit in the heat.

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Wups. not an S-10, but a Ford Ranger EV...

 Rush
 Tucson AZ


  -Original Message-
  From: Rush Dougherty [mailto:r...@ironandwood.org]
  Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 8:56 AM
  To: EVDL (ev@lists.evdl.org)
  Subject: Lithium install in Tucson
 
  Hi all,
 
  Some friends here in Tucson bought a S-10 Ranger EV with Nimh a few
 months
 ago. After
  trying to get the pack working again they decided to go with lithium.
 They
 bought the new
  CALB cells, 100AH, for a pack total of 345.6v, 108 cells. They are using
 the
 EVIC BMS
  system (http://ai-displays.com/). One of the problems they are
 encountering is
 that they
  have to spoof the Ranger into thinking that there were still 25
 modules...
 
  Here's a short video from Marco who is helping to install the system
  https://www.facebook.com/MarcoGaxiolaM (you might have to scroll down a
 little) right
  below the video are some pics.
 
  Rush
  Tucson AZ
 



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-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Jamie K via EV


On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.


Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The old 
rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 80% 
charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry Nissan 
removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.



Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S?  Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current 
model LEAF batteries.



Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement packs 
for existing LEAFs would be a great option.


Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that 
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public 
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF 
refresh for 2017.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV
I used 75 miles as the range because that is what Consumers Report is 
currently reporting and I'd rather use an independent testing number 
especially if reported range drops in winter.


Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that 
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public 
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF 
refresh for 2017. 


Seeing the reported ranges increase from the pre-announcements  is very 
encouraging.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the 
current model LEAF batteries. 
When I divide the Model S pack of 85 kwhr by the an estimated weight of 
roughly 550 kg for the total pack, I get a figure of 154 whr/kg.  
Granted that this weight includes the pack structure and wiring etc. and 
is an estimate from an online forum.  If I add about a 1/3 for this 
weight, the energy density about doubles over a comparative LiFePO6 at 
around 90 whr/kg.   When seeing the Jeff Dahn video of doubling to 
tripling of energy densities, it puts the above into doubt.


On 5/27/2015 12:36 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.


Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The 
old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 
80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry 
Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.



Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the 
current model LEAF batteries.



Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement 
packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option.


Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that 
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public 
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF 
refresh for 2017.


Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] On the road again.

2015-05-27 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 27 May 2015 at 9:23, damon henry via EV wrote:

 After 5 years under the tarp, I put my EV motorcycle back on the road this
 week.  

You must have been awfully bored, living under that tarp for all those 
years! ;-)

 I purchased 16 Calb CA60ah cells which fit well in my existing battery
 boxes.  

So if my math is right, ~3.4 kWh.  That's the equivalent of about four T-125 
golf car batteries (useful capacity 900Wh each).  I'm thinking this is going 
to be a short-range truck, and probably short-lived batteries from working 
so hard.

 I do not have any BMS installed, but on such a small pack with good
 access it is easy to be my own BMS 

As long as you don't get busy with something else and forget.  I know of a 
guy around here who destroyed an entire set of rare and expensive Saft STM5-
180 NiCd batteries when he forgot he was charging them.

I wouldn't even do an E-bike lithium battery without a BMS.  But that's me, 
and I know how forgetful I can be!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 27 May 2015 at 11:30, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

 You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV.

But that's the whole point.  Many vehicle buyers don't!  They think only of 
the up front cost of the vehicle.  

There are many reasons that someone might have that short-sighted outlook.  
Maybe we think the reasons make sense, maybe we don't, but that's a totally 
pointless (and off topic) discussion.  

With education you can change some of these people, but not many. For most 
of them, paycheck-to-paycheck is a life habit, and you can't change it.   If 
you want them to buy EVs, you offer them EVs that serve their perceived 
needs (low purchase cost), or you write them off as EV buyers.

My point was, since EVs have trouble competing with ICEVs on purchase price 
and (at least for some time yet) on utility, let's brainstorm some ways that 
EVs, and ONLY EVs, can be super-convenient for their owners.  Then maybe 
they can compete on convenience and exclusivity.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] On the road again.

2015-05-27 Thread Willie2 via EV

On 05/27/2015 02:52 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I wouldn't even do an E-bike lithium battery without a BMS.  But that's me,
and I know how forgetful I can be!


I met this guy the other day:
http://evalbum.com/4939

Personally, I'd rather have a BMS than not.  OTHO, they have been a 
tremendous source of trouble for me.


The above bike has a fractional Leaf pack.  The guy charges to a certain 
voltage which should insure individual cell voltages in the proper 
range.  IF they are balanced.  The guy has easy access to cell voltages 
and checks regularly after charges.  He has only a few cycles on it but, 
so far, so good.



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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 26 May 2015 at 6:50, tomw via EV wrote:

 Plus today with instant everything, putting up with inconvenience is
 sooo yesterday. 

I think you're on to something here.  

The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant 
torque, zero emissions, refuel at home  - just don't seem to be all that 
important to most people.  Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have 
gotten better at a lot of these things.  (Who would have thought it?)

I think it's fair to say that consumers buy their vehicles for both rational 
and emotional reasons.

The rational factors are easy - cost, utility, convenience.  

EVs are going to lose on utilty, mostly because of their limited range.  

They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see 
only the up-front cost.  Without aggressive subsidies - and those are 
subject to political whim - EVs are in trouble.

Convenience?  At the moment, how EVs fare depends on which you consider more 
convenient, going to a gas station or remembering to plug it in.  

But something else might enter here.  Consumers, especially wealthy ones, 
perceive themselves as busy busy busy even when they actually have lots of 
leisure.  They embrace convenience and are willing to pay for it.   I think 
you're right that EVs will succeed as a vehicle class at least partly on how 
universally convenient they are.

One obvious way to increase EVs' convenience is for ICEVs convenience to 
fall hard and fast.  

Buying fuel was hugely inconvenient in some areas of the US in the mid-
1970s.  In many areas, shortage-driven panic buying created blocks-long, 
hours-long waiting lines at filling stations.  College students earned 
pocket money sitting in impatient and busy suits' cars, waiting for their 5 
or 10 gallon gasoline allotment.  

For many reasons, I don't think that that particular scenario is likely to 
happen again.  Fuel prices will eventually rise again, but that alone isn't 
enough to make large numbers of people desert ICEVs for EVs.  Look what 
people are willing to pay for gasoline in Europe.  

So, let's think of some ways that EVs might become radically more 
convenient, ways that ICEVs simply can't match.  

Here's one: transparent inductive charging.  Your garage has a standardized 
inductive charger in the floor; you park the car and it fuels itself without 
any active participation from you.  (I know about the cost and efficiency 
issues.  C'mon, dream with me for a minute. ;-)

What if building codes required every new house or major renovation to 
include a universal, standards-defined inductive EV charger in the garage 
floor?  Maybe you could include a square-area threshold at first, so that 
they'd mostly go into more expensive houses where the cost would be a 
trivial fraction.  Mass production would eventually drive down the cost, and 
the square-area threshold could be lowered.

Public parking lots might also be reqired to provide some minimum percentage 
of EV slots with this charging.  Your EV could automatically sip electrons 
while you shopped.  The EV would have a unique ID tag.  Each month the cost 
would be billed to your credit card.  You'd never touch a gas pump or a 
charger cord.

Ads for compatible EVs could crow, No more smelly gas stations ever, and 
you never have to plug it in!

Is this scheme really practical?  Probably not. Passing legislation is a 
high bar in the US these days, so public money for this would be hard to 
get.  Still, I've seen additions to building codes that add costs for 
builders go through.  IMO there's a faint glimmer of hope for getting 
something like this into the codes - at least in some states.

Something to think about.  And anyway, we're dreaming here. ;-)

Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match?  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.

2015-05-27 Thread Jamie K via EV


On 5/27/15 1:15 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

I used 75 miles as the range because that is what Consumers Report is
currently reporting and I'd rather use an independent testing number
especially if reported range drops in winter.


Sure, as we've all experienced, the ranges of vehicles (fossil-fuel or 
electric) are typically greater in warmer weather.


It's fine to use something other than the standard EPA range rating when 
discussing EV ranges. But you might want to mention what you're using up 
front since folks will generally be comparing vehicles using the actual 
EPA standard.


BTW, the EPA rating itself is a bit conservative compared to our LEAF 
experience so far. Our 2013 LEAF regularly gets higher than EPA rated 
range in the summer, lower in in winter.


We get around 3.3 to 4.5 miles/kWh in colder weather and 4 to 5.5 
miles/kWh in warmer weather (indicated). With roughly 20kWh usable from 
the 24kWh pack, that's about 66-90 miles in cold weather and 80-110 in 
warm weather at 100% charge for our mix of city and highway driving, 
generally in Eco mode (but with full power always available from the 
accelerator pedal when needed).


Based on the Consumer Report number you quoted, it would seem that their 
experience is a bit different than ours. What model year did they test, 
and at what charge percentage?



 Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF
refresh for 2017. 

Seeing the reported ranges increase from the pre-announcements  is very
encouraging.


Yes indeed.


 IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the
current model LEAF batteries. 
When I divide the Model S pack of 85 kwhr by the an estimated weight of
roughly 550 kg for the total pack, I get a figure of 154 whr/kg. Granted
that this weight includes the pack structure and wiring etc. and is an
estimate from an online forum.  If I add about a 1/3 for this weight,
the energy density about doubles over a comparative LiFePO6 at around 90
whr/kg.   When seeing the Jeff Dahn video of doubling to tripling of
energy densities, it puts the above into doubt.


A quick search shows the Model S battery pack referred to as 240 Wh/kg 
and the LEAF at 140 on various internet reports. If those are accurate, 
then the Tesla Model S pack would be about 1.7 times the energy density 
of today's LEAF's pack, so not quite double.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 5/27/2015 12:36 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

It's getting there.  Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles.


Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The
old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended
80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry
Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%.


Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise
and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that
pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800
miles on a charge EV???  Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as
well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point.
Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful
thinking???  Let's see him write an article about that.


IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the
current model LEAF batteries.


Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model
Leaf?  If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in
anticipation?  If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up
to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack?


We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement
packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option.

Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that
would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public
comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF
refresh for 2017.

Cheers,
 -Jamie

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Re: [EVDL] On the road again.

2015-05-27 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Hi David,
I don't know if Damon liked his tarp,
but I believe it was his motorcycle that was living there and is now set free 
with a new pack.
It is not his other EV, the truck - which still had an old flooded NiCd pack - 
but this
motorcycle with a small pack and indeed, it has limited rage, but apparently 
enough for Damon.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



-Original Message-
From: EV on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV
Sent: Wed 5/27/2015 12:52 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] On the road again.
 
On 27 May 2015 at 9:23, damon henry via EV wrote:

 After 5 years under the tarp, I put my EV motorcycle back on the road this
 week.  

You must have been awfully bored, living under that tarp for all those 
years! ;-)

 I purchased 16 Calb CA60ah cells which fit well in my existing battery
 boxes.  

So if my math is right, ~3.4 kWh.  That's the equivalent of about four T-125 
golf car batteries (useful capacity 900Wh each).  I'm thinking this is going 
to be a short-range truck, and probably short-lived batteries from working 
so hard.

 I do not have any BMS installed, but on such a small pack with good
 access it is easy to be my own BMS 

As long as you don't get busy with something else and forget.  I know of a 
guy around here who destroyed an entire set of rare and expensive Saft STM5-
180 NiCd batteries when he forgot he was charging them.

I wouldn't even do an E-bike lithium battery without a BMS.  But that's me, 
and I know how forgetful I can be!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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