Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[ROBERT via EV]

Roger, let me try to clarify my concern.  A person buys a third party J1772 to 
NEMA adapter (made in China and made cheap).  The adapter has a NEMA rated 20A 
plug.  The adapter does not produce a modified pilot signal.  I take the cord 
and plug from the EVSE that is rated at 50A and plug into the adapter.  I take 
the 20A coil and plug from the charger in my converted car and plug into the 
adapter.  The charger will not draw more than 20A from the EVSE.  This is OK 
load wise because the EVSE can output 50A.  However, it is an unsafe circuit.  
I have connected a 50A rated source to a 20A circuit with no interconnecting 
protection device.  This is no different than connecting a 12AWG wire to a 50A 
breaker.  Lets go the other direction.  I have a NEMA to J1772 adapter with no 
pilot signal.  If the cable from the adapter is plugged into a car with a 50A 
charger, the circuit breaker will trip (you described this situation in your 
email).  This is an unsafe operation.  A circuit bre
 aker is designed to protect the cable not the end load.  You can check the NEC 
to verify this is a true statement.  Circuit breaker are not used for end load 
protection.  The end load device must have its own protection.   If I have a 
large scale NEMA receptacle system, I cannot prevent people from using "bad 
equipment" or "bad configurations of equipment".  If I use a EVSE system with 
approved equipment, these unsafe situations are minimized.  This was my point 
when I made this statement concerning unsafe adapters and a large size NEMA 
plug installation.



From: EV  on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 5:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Again I must correct myself.  I looked back at the J1772 standard and some
> past work that I did.  An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave.  The duty cycle
> of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE
> can supply (rated current).  The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a
> current greater than the EVSE rating.

Yes.

> All lower amperage adapters must
> limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter.  As an example.  If
> the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the
> adapter must adjust the duty cycle.

This is where you lose me.  If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a 
pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this 
amount.  There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a 
vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet.  If the vehicle doesn't 
have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot 
signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal 
limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing.

> It is possible to design a 20A
> adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle
> from the EVSE.

Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle 
so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging 
station.

This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA 
receptacles were provided at each charging stall.  Most of us with conversion 
EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need 
an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord.

Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 
inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are 
effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 
charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the 
appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger.  If the NEMA plug on the wall 
end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal 
should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A.  If the cord has a 
NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A 
(since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated circuit).

Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK to 
draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for, there 
should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated supply wiring 
will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the breaker will simply 
open.

Cheers,

Roger.

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[EVDL] Slim pickens ... EV news drought (over?)

[brucedp5 via EV]

[* Friendly reminder: Political discussions are OT on the evdl ]

Tonight is what I have been waiting for: hopefully the end of the EV news
drought after 'who is going to run the U.S.' is decided.

But even after all the hoopla is over, it will take some time to
re-establish U.S. policies, and then communicate them to the automaker
powers that be.

Lastly, it isn't until zev or CARB deadlines approach will automakers
re-start the -pr- barrage of how great they are because they offer EVs or
are thinking about it.

Which leads me to, there is a whole lot of automaker noise, when what we
need is commitment. And since we (the public) are saddled with dealerships,
what we (the public) also need is dealerships to make a commitment to sell
EVs (I know, I dream a lot).

So, while all that we have been waiting for is now at the point of a
decision,  there is still going to be a wait before we see the out come, and
the annual start (again) of more EV choices for the public.

I hope to see in all these EV news wires I read on a daily basis be 
-a whole lot less -pr- noise, and 
-a whole lot more actual EVs the public can test drive, buy or lease.
(Viva la EV-choices)




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.0catch.com}

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Roger Stockton via EV]

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Again I must correct myself.  I looked back at the J1772 standard and some
> past work that I did.  An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave.  The duty cycle
> of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the EVSE
> can supply (rated current).  The vehicle is responsible for not drawings a
> current greater than the EVSE rating.

Yes.

> All lower amperage adapters must
> limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter.  As an example.  If
> the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, the
> adapter must adjust the duty cycle.

This is where you lose me.  If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates a 
pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this 
amount.  There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a 
vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet.  If the vehicle doesn't 
have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the J1772 pilot 
signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a pilot signal 
limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is capable of providing.

> It is possible to design a 20A
> adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty cycle
> from the EVSE.

Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA receptacle 
so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a public charging 
station.

This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA 
receptacles were provided at each charging stall.  Most of us with conversion 
EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and would not need 
an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord.

Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772 
inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are 
effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a J1772 
charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that provides the 
appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger.  If the NEMA plug on the wall 
end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal 
should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A.  If the cord has a 
NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A 
(since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated circuit).

Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK to 
draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for, there 
should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated supply wiring 
will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the breaker will simply 
open.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] 2020+ TMC to Wake up& smell the cat food in their bank account: Toyota planning long range ...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 8 Nov 2016 at 14:25, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> GM& TMC were in bed together on just about everything that was fighting
> the CARB mandate ... So when EV news items say TMC has switched to EVs,
> lets wait until after 2021 to see what TMC really does. 

For decades I wondered (not really) what happened to that Chevette EV that 
GM promised in 1978.  I guess it's finally here almost 40 years later, but 
now they call it the Bolt.  We'll see how long Toyota takes to deliver on 
their promise.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

 can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can 
> possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA extension cord between the 
> outlet and a charger on the vehicle.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[ROBERT via EV]

;
EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org 
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lists.evdl.org
The Electric Vehicle Discussion List is a forum for discussing the current 
state of the art and future direction of electric vehicles (EVs). We define an 
EV as a ...


lists.evdl.org
The Electric Vehicle Discussion List is a forum for discussing the current 
state of the art and future direction of electric vehicles (EVs). We define an 
EV as a ...


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evdl.org
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archive | news | privacy policy | terms of service


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evdl.org
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[EVDL] 2020+ TMC to Wake up& smell the cat food in their bank account: Toyota planning long range ...

[brucedp5 via EV]

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Toyota-planning-long-range-Battery-EV-as-Hydrogen-car-sales-is-failing-tp4684344.html
]

In following the many media outlet EV news items on a daily basis (since
1990), you learn who is more devious and manipulative. Circa 2000, GM& TMC
were in bed together on just about everything that was fighting the CARB
mandate.

Several have mentioned on the evdl their disdain for GM yet they seem to
fail in their vocalization that TMC is just as bad: what they say is not
what they will do.

Experience has shown me that to take what TMC's -pr- is saying with a dump
truck of salt. Meaning a lot of it is just TMC making feel-good noise (not
what they are really going to do).

TMC is still pushing what they consider is an EV (i-Road nEV):
http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/personal_mobility/i-road/

-
Toyota unveils tiny electric 'personal mobility vehicle'  KFDA-43 minutes
ago
(CNN) - A three-wheeled, two-seater electric vehicle called the Toyota
I-Road ...

Smaller, slower and sleeker: is the Toyota iRoad the future of city ...  CNN
International
-

 And TMC is still pushing their hybrids:

-
2017 Toyota Prius Prime plug-in hybrid: video road test  Green Car Reports

The first electric car charging station of Pakistan inaugurated  TechJuice
(press release) 
Although not fully Electric, but many hybrid fueled Prius ... running on the
Pakistani roads ...

Next-Gen Toyota Prius Set To Rival Chevrolet Bolt  AutooMobile.com-5 hours
ago

Toyota Prius Can't Go Much Further As Hybrid  AutooMobile.com-Oct 31, 2016
Toyota came up with a strategy that focused on hybrids for more than a
decade ... along with successor and the next Toyota Prius may be an
all-electric vehicle.
-


 And TMC is still pushing their fcvs:


-
Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle Test Drive: A Hydrogen Future 
Forbes-22 hours ago
If not for the whir of the electric motor at highway speeds, you might think
it's an ungainly new member of the Prius family and not harbinger of a
hydrogen future.

Toyota vs Tesla: Can hydrogen fuel-cell cars compete with EVs?  RenewEconomy
Jim Lentz, CEO of Toyota N.America says that his company is betting big on
... HFCV  ...

Toyota to launch fuel-cell buses next year for Olympics  Green Car
Reports-Oct 24, 2016
It appears that Toyota's hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles plans encompass more
than ... fuel-cell stack powers a pair of 114-kilowatt (152 horsepower)
electric motors, ...
-


 So when EV news items say TMC has switched to EVs, lets wait until after
2021 to see what TMC really does. IMO TMC has not abandoned hybrids nor
fcvs.



-
Toyota to mass-produce electric vehicles  Naija247news-2 hours ago
Toyota Motor intends to start mass-producing electric vehicles by 2020,
hoping to expand its lineup of green automobiles beyond hybrid and fuel-cell
cars.

Toyota Intends To Begin Mass Production Of EVs By 2020, Nikkei ... 
CleanTechnica
Toyota will begin mass production of electric vehicles by 2020, in time for
the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, according to a report ...

New Toyota Aygo to become a pure EV as part of electric car push? 
AutoExpress-2 hours
Toyota could split its next Aygo city car from its sister cars from Citroen
and Peugeot by offering it with an electric powertrain, Auto Express can
reveal. The new ...

Green Car Journal Announces Finalists For 2017 Green Car Of The ... The Auto
Channel

Is Toyota Thinking Twice About Fuel Cell Vehicles?  Vehicle Lеаdеr (blog)-3
hours ago

BEVs Ready To Become Part Of Toyota's Portfolio, CFO Says  Forbes-4 hours
ago

Toyota ready to power up in race to go electric  Financial Times-4 hours ago

Is Toyota Ready to Do a 180 and Build an All-Electric Vehicle?  24/7 Wall
St.-4 hours ago

Toyota to offer electric car in 2020 as fuel-cell sales struggle  Green Car
Reports-4 hours
Toyota has been a confirmed naysayer on long-range battery-electric cars for
two decades. Instead, hydrogen fuel cells have been its zero-emission
technology ...

Toyota Prius Could Go All-Electric By 2020  NSEAVoice.com-5 hours ago
For the past couple of years or so, many carmakers have confirmed their
interest to shift into making electric cars instead of just gasoline-powered
vehicles.

Greentech Media-5 hours ago
 ... Toyota Motor Corp. gave a strong signal Tuesday that it soon plans to
jump on the ...

Toyota Looks to Electric Cars as Stronger Yen Dents Profits  Nasdaq-8 hours
ago
TOKYO—Toyota Motor Corp. gave a strong signal Tuesday that it soon plans to
jump on the battery bandwagon and make electric cars despite expressing ...

Toyota to Start Mass-Producing Electric Vehicles By 2025  Investopedia-9
hours ago

Toyota plans for long-range EVs by 2020  CarTrade.com-11 hours ago
 ... Toyota is currently building a team which will primarily develop EVs
with a ...

In a change of heart, Toyota planning long-range EVs  Paul Tan's Automotive
News
Here's something unexpected from Toyota. The Japanese giant is looking at
mass-producing 

Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Roger Stockton via EV]

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and
> how many are UL listed?

I would expect that every J1772 opportunity charge cord ("adapter") provided by 
a vehicle OEM will be UL listed and is clearly approved by that vehicle OEM for 
use with their vehicle(s).

> In addition, I know of companies that are selling
> adapters that do not issue a pilot signal (square wave).  The adapters
> only have a switch that show that a vehicle is connected.

This sort of adapter would be used by a non-OEM EV to charge *from* a J1772 
EVSE (such as a public Level 2 charging station).  A J1772-compliant EV will 
not charge unless the EVSE/adapter provides a valid pilot signal, however, a 
J1772-compliant EVSE (charging station) *will* provide AC to a non-J1772 
compliant EV/charger as long as the adapter loads the EVSE pilot signal 
appropriately.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[ROBERT via EV]

How many of these adapters are approved by the vehicle manufacturer and how 
many are UL listed?  In addition, how many of these adapters come with a list 
of vehicles for which they have been tested and certificated by the UL or the 
manufacturer?  In addition, I know of companies that are selling adapters that 
do not issue a pilot signal (square wave).  The adapters only have a switch 
that show that a vehicle is connected.  I guess I should not have stated "they 
are not safe to use".  I should have stated that these adapters have not been 
shown to be as safe as the J1772 connectors installed by the vehicle 
manufacturers.


Some car manufacturers like Tesla sell adapters. However, these adapters should 
not be used with other vehicles.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Roger Stockton via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 11:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA
> outlet?

The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot 
signal how much AC current may be drawn.  A 120V J1772 cord will almost 
certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to use 
on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet.  I believe that some aftermarket cords may be 
available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure the 
cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with this 
capability.

> One can buy a J1772 to NEMA
> adapter; however, they are not safe to use.  All these adapters "fake out"
> the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations.  It would not
> surprise me to see these adapters outlawed.

I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of.  As far as I know, every 
OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or offers a 
120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord.  This cord *is* a proper J1772 EVSE and 
not only provides an appropriate pilot signal to the vehicle, but also does not 
energise the charging plug until it senses that it is mated with a J1772 
receptacle.

I can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can 
possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA extension cord between the outlet 
and a charger on the vehicle.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Roger Stockton via EV]

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> (1) How does a vehicle with a J1772 connector know the rating of the NEMA
> outlet?

The portable J1772 EVSE charging cord/adapter tells the vehicle via the pilot 
signal how much AC current may be drawn.  A 120V J1772 cord will almost 
certainly tell the vehicle not to draw more than 12A, so that it is safe to use 
on any 15A or 20A 120V outlet.  I believe that some aftermarket cords may be 
available with a 16A pilot signal or the ability for the user to configure the 
cord for either 12A or 16A, however, I an unaware of an OEM cord with this 
capability.

> One can buy a J1772 to NEMA
> adapter; however, they are not safe to use.  All these adapters "fake out"
> the EVSE and the user must be aware of the limitations.  It would not
> surprise me to see these adapters outlawed.

I'm not sure what sort of adapter you are thinking of.  As far as I know, every 
OEM that offers an EV with a J1772 charge inlet wither includes or offers a 
120V J1772 "opportunity charge" cord.  This cord *is* a proper J1772 EVSE and 
not only provides an appropriate pilot signal to the vehicle, but also does not 
energise the charging plug until it senses that it is mated with a J1772 
receptacle.

I can't see how one of these NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cords can 
possibly be *less* safe than an ordinary NEMA extension cord between the outlet 
and a charger on the vehicle.

Cheers,

Roger.

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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161108

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Bolt-EV-Spied-Autonomously-Cruising-San-Francisco-CA-Streets-td4684352.html
EVLN: Bolt EV Spied Autonomously Cruising San_Francisco-CA Streets
For most in North America, seeing a 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV out zipping
around on your local street is not an everyday occurrence. After all, the
238 mile ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Mercedes-Benz-Sprinter-EV-e-van-set-for-Oz-market-td4684351.html
EVLN: Mercedes-Benz Sprinter EV e-van set for Oz market
The first all-electric Mercedes-Benz vehicle to be sold in Australia could
be a commercial van – a really big one – the Sprinter. Mercedes-Benz has
previously confirmed it will debut its first-ever …

+
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Faraday-Future-LeSee-EV-prototype-gt-overstretched-more-trouble-ahead-under-scrutiny-td4684350.html
Faraday Future, LeSee EV prototype> overstretched, more trouble ahead, under
scrutiny
LeEco's CEO Jia Yueting Says Company Overstretched In Letter To Employees
Examples of non-listed entities are the LeSee and Faraday Future electric
car projects, the smartphone and smart-television businesses, and the entire
U.S. ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Mr-Mustache-Momey-buys-a-new-35k-Leaf-EV-for-14k-td4684349.html
Mr Mustache'$ Momey buys a new $35k Leaf EV for $14k
Mr. Money Mustache outlines how he bought his new Nissan Leaf for less than
the cost of a ... How to buy a $35,000 electric car for under $14,000 and
tonight's ...




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