Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

First responders have a series of materials and apps that they use to determine 
how to address a particular.

I randomly grabbed an app from the NFPA, which instructs, in the case of 
submersion, not to touch high voltage or medium voltage cables or components.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2018, at 9:23 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> That’s because they can’t be electrocuted unless they touched something There 
> have to be a pat the ground
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2018, at 11:10 AM, JoeS. via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> /Chris wrote: I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger in
>> handling an EV
>> in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
>> isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to get
>> two parts of the body at different potentials./
>> For that very reason I've always been mystified how someone swimming in a
>> pool not touching anything could be electrocuted...
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Joe Siudzinski
>> --
>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Fast switching power doesn't need a ground or a common return to generate
loud EMI and foul AM.  In my old testing lab I had used an old transistor
radio to locate noise that was fouling a turbine flowmeter output. The
problem lies with rapid rising and falling voltage - something that is
desired with some electronic switches that are inefficient during those
transitions. That inefficiency comes out as heat that accumulates in in
motors and degrades performance. We were using stepper motors that that had
voltage rise like 20 V/nanosecond.  They weren't large motors, but very
loud in the EM noise department. It was a trick to solve.

transistor radios are a forgotten tech.  They aren't to bad in a car, but
in the home a drill or mixer can cause a lot of disturbance.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:43 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle
> is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM radio
> share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the problem.
>
> The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the chassis,
> (and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is received by
> the AM radio.
>
> The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, reduces
> the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM radio. The
> drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the specific frequency
> region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is _/very/_ difficult.
> You can locate the sensitive components of the AM radio away from the
> drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.
>
>  Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception?   Most
> folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception is
> not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" instead
> of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.
>
>  This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is quite
> costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds weight, which
> reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small airplanes,
> helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears headphones (or ear
> plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane itself is designed to
> reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very expensive to solve noise the
> problem at the source end. Much cheaper and lighter to solve the problem
> at the relieving end.
>
>  Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get
> to your destination any quicker.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
>
> On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
> > and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
> >
> > Peri
> >
>
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>

-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Customer: The “X” feature  in my car doesn’t work right.
Dealer: That’s okay. We think that it’s “better” to use something else.
That’s acceptable? Really?


Sure it is! Marketing will convince him. Look, we've been convincing 
them to buy our ICEs for years! :-)


The Manager and the Engineer -- by Lee Hart
(inspired by Lewis Carrol's The Walrus and the Carpenter)

The Manager and Engineer were counting up their score;
The Manager’s showed ninety-eight; the Engineer’s was more.
And both lay bunkered in a trap, and both stood up and swore.

I hate to see, said Engineer, such quantities of sand.
How they could miss its proper use I cannot understand.
Add water, lime, and pave it all; I think it would be grand.

The rules are wrong, said Manager. If I could sweep them clean,
I’m sure that I could make this hole in less than seventeen.
I doubt it, said the Engineer. Your slice is pretty mean.

The time has come, said Manager, to speak of many things;
Of ISOs, and TQMs, and where the market swings,
And how our budgets rise, yet fall, and whether time has wings.

Delight the customer, he said. It’s our new goal, you see.
That’s easy, said the Engineer. Ship better goods for free.
No, no, the Manager replied. You do not follow me.

Profit is our real goal, by management’s decree.
In that case, said the Engineer, I see your strategy.
To please them with our same old junk, call Marketing, not me.

Low product cost, said Manager. And build them quick, you see?
And customers demand, of course, the highest quality.
Can’t do them all, said Engineer. Pick two, then call on me.

CPDM, said Manager, sets rules for every game.
I fear this rule, said Engineer, is innovation’s bane.
how differs golf from basketball if rules are made the same?

Continuous improvement will make our products shine.
This mitigates quite strong against a major new design.
You cannot cross a river going one step at a time.

With PS6 I’ve graphed your way, the Manager observed.
Before design? said Engineer. I’d never have the nerve.
I learned to get my data first, and then to plot the curve.

Re-engineer the company! Our course must be reversed!
That makes me ask, said Engineer. Who engineered it first?
Re-engineer could mean replace; I fear you mean the worst.

(This is full of once-fashionable corporate buzz-words. Anyone who has
worked in large corporations will probably shudder with recognition
at each one).

ISO International Standards Organization
TQM Total Quality Management
CPDM Common Product Design Methodology (making Cola, Computers, or Cars 
is all the same)

Continuous Improvement (no new products; just evolve old ones)
PS6 Microsoft's Project Scheduler (made pretty graphs out of nonsense)
Re-engineer the company (fire everone, and hire them back as temps or 
contract workers)

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?>crashed in Canby-OR

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Differential Voltage.
Similar to emergency handling of a downed power line: do not take big steps to 
get away from the line, you may bridge a large enough voltage in the ground 
with your legs, to send a dangerous current through your body.
If a live circuit or a lightning strike power the water in one spot, the 
resistance of the water will cause a voltage differential that will become 
smaller the further you go away from the place.
If your body experiences enough voltage gradient, the current through your body 
can be large enough to be electrocuted while in water.
In a car, your surroundings are metal, though they are not made for good 
electrical contact, so a metal door panel may still have a difference potential 
than the chassis of the car unless the wiring loom has a conductor that ties 
the door to the chassis, for example to prevent a door light to flicker while 
opening/closing the door. If not present, touching the door may be hazardous 
when there is power touching the car. Similar to the case of a truck where the 
taillights are lit through return path of the bed. If you make a tilt-up bed, 
suddenly your taillights become wonky because the bed is no longer bolted down 
to the chassis and you need to add a strap: a wire between bed and chassis to 
explicitly tie them together in voltage potential, so the taillights have a 
return path for the current.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: JoeS. via EV
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 2:00 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: JoeS.
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, 
Prius?>crashed in Canby-OR

/Chris wrote: I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger in
handling an EV
in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to get
two parts of the body at different potentials./
For that very reason I've always been mystified how someone swimming in a
pool not touching anything could be electrocuted...


-
Joe Siudzinski
--
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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

[Cliff Crabtree via EV]

"Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car?"

No.  But it was sure nice to have when we were heading north out of Weed 
CA Route 97 on a dark December night not long ago.  The sign said to 
tune your radio to some AM frequency for traffic conditions.  That saved 
us a lot of time because the road was closed to all but four wheel 
drive.  So we turned around and returned to Interstate 5 and went 
through Portland, normally a much longer drive.  Cell phone coverage is 
very poor along that route.  So the AM radio was the only thing that 
informed us.


Cell phone coverage is getting better and I am seeing more apps that 
provide current road conditions.  So I think that the "need" for AM 
radio is decreasing.  But I was sure glad we had it on that trip.



Later,

Cliff Crabtree


On 11/10/18 10:43 AM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle 
is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM 
radio share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the 
problem.


The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the 
chassis, (and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is 
received by the AM radio.


The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, 
reduces the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM 
radio. The drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the 
specific frequency region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is 
_/very/_ difficult. You can locate the sensitive components of the AM 
radio away from the drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.


    Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception? Most 
folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception 
is not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" 
instead of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.


    This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is 
quite costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds 
weight, which reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small 
airplanes, helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears 
headphones (or ear plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane 
itself is designed to reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very 
expensive to solve noise the problem at the source end. Much cheaper 
and lighter to solve the problem at the relieving end.


    Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get 
to your destination any quicker.


Bill D.




On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor 
and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?


Peri



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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

[paul dove via EV]

That’s because they can’t be electrocuted unless they touched something There 
have to be a pat the ground

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 10, 2018, at 11:10 AM, JoeS. via EV  wrote:
> 
> /Chris wrote: I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger in
> handling an EV
> in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
> isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to get
> two parts of the body at different potentials./
> For that very reason I've always been mystified how someone swimming in a
> pool not touching anything could be electrocuted...
> 
> 
> -
> Joe Siudzinski
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> ___
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

[Bill Dube via EV]

There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle 
is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM radio 
share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the problem.


The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the chassis, 
(and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is received by 
the AM radio.


The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, reduces 
the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM radio. The 
drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the specific frequency 
region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is _/very/_ difficult. 
You can locate the sensitive components of the AM radio away from the 
drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.


    Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception?   Most 
folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception is 
not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" instead 
of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.


    This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is quite 
costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds weight, which 
reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small airplanes, 
helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears headphones (or ear 
plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane itself is designed to 
reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very expensive to solve noise the 
problem at the source end. Much cheaper and lighter to solve the problem 
at the relieving end.


    Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get 
to your destination any quicker.


Bill D.




On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor 
and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?


Peri



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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

[paul dove via EV]

Well conducted emissions seems easier to eliminate 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 9, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Is the problem radiated emissions or conducted emissions anyone know?
> 
> If radiated, it will cause problems not only for your own car; but will also 
> wipe out AM in the car next to it!
> 
> Our Prius has an AM radio, though it has a "tin ear" -- poor weak signal 
> reception. This has been a problem for me on long trips. FM stations fade in 
> and out as you drive, but especially at night, you can listen to the same AM 
> station for your entire drive.
> 
> -- 
> Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
> reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
> affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

[Peri Hartman via EV]

-- Original Message --
From: "JoeS. via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "JoeS." 
Sent: 10-Nov-18 9:10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, 
Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR


/Chris wrote: I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger 
in

handling an EV
in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to 
get

two parts of the body at different potentials./
I think the issue is ensuring a body doesn't complete the circuit 
between the two battery poles. That is, if you were to cut some cables, 
who knows what route the current would take. It could injure the aid 
workers or the occupants.


For that very reason I've always been mystified how someone swimming in 
a

pool not touching anything could be electrocuted...
This case is different since the power to the lighting or other 
electrical equipment is *not* floating. It is relative to ground.




-
Joe Siudzinski
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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

[JoeS. via EV]

/Chris wrote: I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger in
handling an EV
in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to get
two parts of the body at different potentials./
For that very reason I've always been mystified how someone swimming in a
pool not touching anything could be electrocuted...


-
Joe Siudzinski
--
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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

[Chris Tromley via EV]

Looks like a Tesla, S or 3.  I'm thinking Model 3.

I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger in handling an EV
in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to get
two parts of the body at different potentials.  So the rule of staying away
from orange should be pretty reliable.  You certainly don't want to go
bridging any HV bits with your body, but if you're in the water with an EV
and the HV is compromised, the water is a MUCH better conductor than you
are.  Seems like a lot of water (like a creek) would be safer than just a
little.

Am I missing something?  If not, why aren't these guys trained better?

Chris

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon>
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On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:54 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> % Often the media gets their facts wrong. ***Requesting help to
> ID(identify)
> this car that lies deep down crashed in an Oregon creek. ?Is it an EV,
> hybrid or ice?  %
>
>
> https://katu.com/news/local/firefighters-extra-careful-when-electric-car-goes-into-creek
> Firefighters extra careful when electric car goes into creek
> 2018-11-09  KATU News
>
> [image
>
> https://static-18.sinclairstoryline.com/resources/media/36493257-fdd6-4bc8-b0f0-0276adb28b09-large16x9_electriccarintowater.jpg?1541835634261
> (Photo: Canby Fire Department)
> ]
>
> CANBY, Ore. —
>
> It was a tricky rescue Friday.
>
> A car went off Dryland road and into a creek.
>
> The part that made it tricky was it was an electric vehicle in water.
>
> So, the Canby Fire Department had to be extra careful freeing the driver.
>
> The victim was flown from the scene to a trauma center in a helicopter.
>
> No word yet on the driver's condition or on the cause of the crash.
> [© katu.com]
>
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/aNZSjLgLukt
> (map)  Dryland Road, Canby, OR  (~30mi south of Portland)
> ...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=volt+hybrid=isch
> image search  volt
> ...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=bolt+electric=isch
> image search  bolt
> ...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=prius+hybrid=isch
> image search  prius
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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[EVDL] Almost Done, 86 Year Old Uncle nearly There After 34 Years to Get Bucket List GE EV1-B Based EV Car Running

[ptandjb Frontier via EV]

First, Frontier Communications has started blocking the emails from
lists.evdl.org as spam on 9-7-18, and I have been unable so far to get them
to stop, so my primary email ptan...@frontier.com
<mailto:ptan...@frontier.com>  email can no longer be used. Upon
recommendation of ECDL Administrator, I created new Gmail account
ptan...@gmail.com <mailto:ptan...@gmail.com>  which I re-signed up on
10-17-18. Any responses to my posts sent during this interim time I did not
receive. Anyhow, an update of our progress is below:

 

 

Much progress has been made, car and controller are largely operational,
previous problems solved. One big issue with the ammeter gauge gross
measurement errors was solved by running independent power, ground, and
signal wires directly from the 500 amp shunt. Much of car infrastructure
outside the fiberglass body had to be replaced as stuff goes bad sitting for
decades. 86 year old uncle may be forced to retire at years end because the
construction company he works for is being sold, so we are working
expeditiously to full completion and a few issues are currently outstanding.
My last three or so emails/technical support calls to Flight Systems
Industrial Products have gone unanswered so I will post my questions here.


I made a few short IPhone videos. The first is uncle testing the car horn:


 <http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/horn0941.MOV>
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/horn0941.MOV

The second is a view of dashboard under construction and a view of the rear
engine compartment.


 <http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/intro0940.MOV>
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/intro0940.MOV


The third is a test of the controller and motor contactors. The car has
tires but is up on blocks so the tires can spin freely. The plan was to
press the accelerator to activate the Start switch and then before the motor
had time to spin the tires up to unsafe speeds press the accelerator fully
to make the Bypass switch for full function test. This was done in forward
and reverse.

 <http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/motor0943.MOV>
http://ptandjb.com/eddiesEV1/motor0943.MOV


The first question we have does the sound of the motor and differential
sound OK, does anyone hear an issue?


The second question is really big, in that it appears that the wiring to the
motor is reversed in that putting the car in forward with positive input to
L9, the wheels spin in reverse, and putting the car in reverse with positive
input to L10, the wheels spin forward. Uncle and cousin are hoping against
hope that this will change when we get the car off blocks and trailer for
parking lot test runs, but I doubt it. Swapping the wiring on the motor
would be messy, uncle wants to know if we can simply relabel the
forward/reverse switch, does it matter, and is there an intrinsic difference
in the controller between forward and reverse functions of the EV-1B
controller? 

 

Paul Traceski

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

[David Delman via EV]

I had interference on the AM radio in my Tesla model S.

Took it in to Tesla to be fixed.

A week later, I got it back. No change in the AM interference.

Their answer, use streaming for AM...

Thank you,

David Delman


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