[EVDL] NEMA 14-60? (was: NEMA 14-50 Receptacles for EVSE, EV Charging)

[Bill Dube via EV]

I think the simplest would be to install a NEMA 14-60 with a 60 amp 
breaker, and swap in a NEMA 14-60 cord cap on the charger.


If you are over 50 amps, you are exempt from the NEC GFCI requirements, 
even outdoors. A bit silly, but this is what the NEC rules say you can 
do


You could subsequently make a 14-60 to 14-50 adapter, but that would not 
be legal


Bill D.

PS

The trip limit of 5 mA on a North American GFCI is just plain silly. The 
rest of the world sets the trip limit to 30 mA for GFCI (or "Residual 
Current", as it is called elsewhere.) Hospitals, daycare centers, and 
the like, have lower trip limits, which makes sense in those specific 
locations.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Rumor: Tesla abandons $25k EV?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I suspect that the competition has recently heated up in the low end of 
the EV market. It has evolved into the inevitable "race to the bottom." 
I'm thinking that Elon has acknowledged the lack of profitability in 
this market sector and has decided to gracefully bow out.


There was a news article in February that BYD launched their Qin Plus EV 
Honor Edition car for $15k USD. It looks to be a four (or perhaps five 
very slim) passenger sedan. $15k for a reasonably nice, basic, EV.


    BYD has put a "shot across the bow" of Tesla with this vehicle.

Bill D.


On 4/8/2024 12:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
It could be simply that a low cost model isn't exciting enough for 
Musk. He likes being a disruptor, proving that he can do something 
where no one else has succeeded. If he follows through with a 
robotaxi, that would be huge. He would be upsetting the taxi and ride 
share markets and have them at his knees. I think he would thrive on 
that.


Of course, all of that is predicated on full self driving. Who knows 
where that stands...


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
Sent: 07-Apr-24 16:58:09
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Rumor: Tesla abandons $25k EV?

Cleantechnica has an interesting take on this story.  They point out 
that,
if it's true, it's a deviation from Tesla's claimed "master plan" to 
use the

profits from luxury vehicles to develop affordable mass-market EVs.

Who knows, maybe Musk thinks he's done enough for us poor folks with the
M3/Y, and he can scratch that goal off the list.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/05/musk-no-tesla-model-2-for-you-maybe/ 



"The Elon Musk biography by Walter Isaacson details in exquisite 
detail how

a group of Tesla engineers lobbied Elon Musk for years to give up his
fixation on robotaxis and get on with the business of making a less
expensive mass market car. [...]

"But according to a report by Reuters on April 5, 2024, Tesla has 
canceled
the Model 2 and will resume its efforts to build robotaxis. So, here 
we are

back at square one again. I should have written this as my April Fool´s
article, but no one would have believed it. It is too fanciful, too far
fetched to have any credibility, but it is true nonetheless according to
three company insiders and an internal memo seen by Reuters.

The decision represents an abandonment of a long standing goal that Elon
Musk has articulated several times in his "secret" master plans - 
building

affordable electric cars for the masses. His first "master plan" in 2006
specifically called for manufacturing luxury models first, then using 
the

profits to finance a 'low cost family car.' [...]

"[Editor´s note: Since Steve wrote this, we have seen a tweet from 
Elon Musk

that a Tesla robotaxi reveal will be on August 8th."

-

About that last paragraph: what Musk actually wrote on Twitter was 
"Tesla
Robotaxi reveal on 8/8.". Why THAT date?  "88" is a white supremacy 
and Nazi
symbol.  I hope the date is just a coincidence.  Musk's trolling is 
already

turning off potential Tesla customers.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 atrocities.

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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues

[Bill Dube via EV]

Most of the world outside North America, is 230-240 VAC to ground. Split 
single phase, 120-neutral-120, is essentially only in North America.


Normal circuit breakers are only single pole and only switch the live 
conductor. It is not common to find a circuit breaker that cuts the 
neutral as well as the live conductor. In the US, a two pole breaker is 
feeding a 240 circuit, and each conductor (black and white/red) are 120 
Vac to neutral. The 240 v appliance may not have need of the neutral 
conductor.


In the the US and Canada, the neutral conductor is connected to the 
ground (earth) conductor ONLY in the main (first in line) service 
equipment ("panel"). The ground rod conductor and the plumbing bond 
conductor(s) also are connected at the main panel. Everywhere else the 
neural and ground are kept separate. This is the general practice in 
most of the world.


The neutral coming from the utility is indeed grounded in North America. 
It is also grounded in most of the rest of the world. It kind of has to 
be, if you think about it. The utilities often sink ground rods and run 
a ground wire here and there. They do this at least in one place near 
the step-down transformer serving the branch. However, after it branches 
to different houses on the same branch, they each connect the neutral to 
a ground rod conductor in each of their main panels.


What is interesting is that the live (hot) conductor in North America is 
the black colored one. Most other places, the black is neutral (ground 
potential).


The US has, by far, the world's thickest electrical code book. :-)

In NZ, they routinely run 10 amps through 1mm^2 wire. (You are allowed 
to put up to 16 amps depending on insulation type and installation 
methods.) This is equivalent to a 17 AWG wire. The wiring is much 
thinner in the rest of the world than it it is the US.


Bill D.


On 3/12/2024 12:51 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:33, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us
households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the
panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they
groundone leg as a neutral)

I don't know about other places, but France doesn't have an equivalent of
the US split phase system.

It's 400 / 230 volt 3-phase. Older and/or larger houses often have 3-phase
installed, especially if they were once farms or businesses. Newer houses
usually just get one phase and neutral.

You can request 3-phase from the utility, and charge your EV at up to 22kW,
if the onboard charger allows.  (32a * 230v * 3ph) But the cost will be
higher.

Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral.


That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above
ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.

Yep, hot and neutral.  For a 3-phase installation, 3 hots and a neutral.

As I understand it, the neutral isn't grounded ahead of the house. Maybe
that's why a lightning arrestor is usually fitted to the main panel.  But
the neutral IS grounded at the main house service entrance, so the potential
to ground is 230v.

Hence a 500ma main RCD, and smaller 30ma RCDs on each panel bus.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Bill Dube via EV]

The consensus is that ~30mA is the threshold for a fatal shock under 
ordinary circumstances:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_injury
and
https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html

Thus, most countries pick 30 mA as the trip for GFCI (RCD). Picking a 
greater current increases the risk of fatalities, while picking a lower 
current increases the risk/frequency of nuisance tripping. 30 mA is the 
smart place to set the standard trip.


Nuisance tripping due to the lower 5 mA threshold actually reduces 
safety, if you think about it for a bit. Whole house GFCI protection is 
totally impractical at 5mA, while it is completely acceptable and the 
normal practice at 30 mA. Unprotected circuits in the household raise 
the safety risk, obviously. Bedroom outlets are a prime example of 
non-GFCI protected areas under the NEC. (They have arc fault protection, 
but that is a different animal entirely.)


Nuisance tripping will cause folks to defeat the GFCI protection by 
simply using an extension cord to an unprotected outlet (like one in a 
hallway) when they are in an area that requires a GFCI, like outdoors, 
or in the kitchen.


Keep in mind that 30 mA GFCI protection is required over the entire 
household, you can, but you aren't required, to use a single device to 
accomplish that coverage. I have several separate GFCI breakers, each 
covering different portions of my house. I have a separate GFCI breaker 
for the lighting. I have a separate GFCI breaker for the front outlets 
and one for the rear outlets. I have two separate GFCI circuits for 
outdoor outlets. They aren't terribly expensive, and having separate 
ones helps isolate any problems that may occur.



On 3/12/2024 8:42 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Cor van de Water wrote:

my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use
my garage to do any development work, because as soon as
I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on,
the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI
because it indeed creates a current to ground.

The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that I 
use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor).


If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.

The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being electrocuted 
(i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, 
while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen 
as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they 
can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an 
even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may 
well not be able to remove themselves from the source of the shock.

But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have lobbied 
for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the 
last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage 
before their GFCI trips.

500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them 
as well!
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have
a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit.
This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will
indeed trip guaranteed.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a
lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over
about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are
getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd
definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages
everywhere.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV
wrote:


On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:


Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in
the world.

Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere,
including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South
Korea.

Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't
usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf
tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall.

I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling
surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It
appeared
to be a recent installation.

Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be
6kW
or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot
of
3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there.

On the 

[EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

[Bill Dube via EV]

First, breakers themselves really don't care which way the power is 
flowing. I can't think of anything about a breaker that would behave 
differently if the power flows in or out of the bus bars.


VERY large breakers need power on the input side to rewind the trip 
mechanism. Even then, you simply must rewind them with the manual crank 
if you are in a no power situation. (You can't reset them if they aren't 
rewound.) Aside from that, they also don't care which way the power flows.


I can't recall ever seeing a bus bar overheat due to overloading. I 
suspect that the bus bars can take far more than the main breaker 
current. Keep in mind that temperature is the issue. The ohmic heating 
and the ambient temperature must cause the bus bar to rise to the point 
where the insulation will be damaged. Each breaker that you attach to 
the bus bar will both draw more current (perhaps) but will also help 
wick heat away from the bus bar.


I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter, 
somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the 
far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar 
would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think 
about this for a moment or two.)


Even if you were to put the solar breaker in the middle of the panel, 
the bus bars are not very likely to see a load greater than the main 
breaker current, because the circuits between the solar breaker and the 
main are drawing current. This draw is likely to be more than the solar 
breaker is supplying to the panel. Typically (but not always) it is 
general practice to install the larger current breakers near the top of 
the panel, near the main breaker.


 I would guess that under any normal circumstances, the odds of a bus 
bar over load are vanishingly small, particularly if you don't place the 
solar breaker near the very top of the panel.


Bill D.

On 3/11/2024 5:52 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:

I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it, but 
maybe some don't.
Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some 
electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used to 
back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually look 
the other way.

The problem is as follows.
Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.    It has a big 200 amp breaker at the 
top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine that you 
have a 40 amp solar.
So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance and 
you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).    No problem as the main 
breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40 amps of 
solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from the power 
company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.    But the 
important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially seeing 200 
amps).    Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so now the bus 
bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't flip (because it's 
now it only sees 200 amps.
So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are 
rated for.
The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps but 
almost nobody does that.

But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not really 
correct.
Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a 
solar panel not being entirely kosher.

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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

[Bill Dube via EV]

The NEC has changed through the years regarding GFCI protection.

120vac outdoor outlets were required to be GFCI protected since ~1972.

In the '80s when I worked as an electrician, outdoor 240 volt NEMA 14-50 
outlets were not required to be GFCI protected, but when used to power a 
hot tub, or near a pool, they were required to be GFCI protected. 
However, the newest NEC regulations require, as I understand it, all 
outdoor outlets up to 50 amps be GFCI protected. (I suppose you could 
put in a 60 amp breaker to get around the regulation...)


You should not even mention that an EV might use this outlet. It is 
simply an outdoor NEMA 14-50 outlet. Perhaps for a welder, or ???


The NEC has become more strict in the past 40 years. :-)

Depending on the brand of panel, 50amp 240V two-pole GFCI breakers are 
not insanely expensive. Typically $100 to $150. (For a Scheneider brand, 
they can cost over $400, however.) Choose your brand of sub-panel panel 
based on your breaker cost. :-) I would put the GFCI breaker so that is 
is handy to the outlet so you can easily reset it. At 5 mA trip 
threshold, you are likely to have to reset it with regularity. :-)


 GFCI rant <<<

In the USA, the GFCI is set at an insanely low trip threshold of 5 mA. 
This is a bit of overreach by the NEC folks. It was initially set far to 
conservatively and they can't go up now that they have set the standard 
at 5 mA.


In NZ, and other parts of the civilized world, the ground fault (or 
residual current) trip threshold is 30 mA.  For context, it takes about 
100 mA, directly across the chest of a healthy adult to cause a fatal 
shock. Small children and adults with unhealthy hearts, have a lower 
threshold than 100 mA. Thus, in hospitals, daycare facilities, etc. they 
set the requirement at 10 mA for devices with in their reach.


The base voltage in NZ, and most of the world, is 230V. This actually 
doubles the chance of getting the critical 100 mA jolt across the chest, 
but 30 mA is is still a safer option. First, the threshold is 1/3 of 
what is considered the lowest fatal shock current. Next, a shock 
directly across the chest is quite rare. You have to touch something of 
opposite electrical potential with each hand or arm. This is a _very_ 
rare occurrence.


The consequence of 5 mA threshold is nuisance tripping. Indeed, less 
trip current is "more safe" than more, I suppose, but it is impractical 
to apply GFCI to more that select parts of the house (and to the 
business.) In contrast the ENTIRE house is protected by GFCI in NZ under 
the modern NZ electrical code. Your electric range is GFCI protected, as 
are all your appliances, and every light fixture. Every outlet in the 
entire house is GFCI protected. You have one GFCI 30 mA breaker to cover 
the entire house, and it rarely trips. If the trip was 5 mA, this would 
be completely impractical as the nuisance tripping would make normal 
activities impossible. A hair dryer could easily darken your entire house.


I should note that commercial settings also have (with some exceptions) 
this facility-wide 30 mA GFCI protection on everything, under the modern 
electrical code.


Bill D.

On 3/11/2024 10:55 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Folks
I was reading in Solar Power World where a California solar installer adds a 
14/50 240Vac 50A outlet on the same solar array 50a circuit (for EV charging). 
We have added 120vac courtesy outlets on our solar array and pass inspection 
even though NEC says solar must be on a dedicated circuit (also tap off garage 
circuits that are not dedicated). I couldn’t find anything direct on Google if 
it’s a code violation to add a 240V outlet like we do a 120V outlet on the same 
50A branch circuit?  Does anyone know if this is ok/code compliant?

I assume a local 50A breaker to the 14/50 outlet might be needed since there’s 
two sources, 40A solar plus 50A from panel branch circuit.

Best regards Mark
Sent from my iPhone

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[EVDL] Totally OT, but... (was: Elon Musk: "We should not demonize oil and gas")

[Bill Dube via EV]

Just a totally OT comment on this:

    I'm retired now, but I used to have several colleagues in climate 
research. (Basically, they are what a common person would call a climate 
scientist.) When I spoke with any of them privately, they all expressed 
the opinion that we have likely "broken the planet." That is; Even if we 
were to completely stop putting CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) into 
the air now, the processes we have set into motion will continue to 
_accelerate_ for decades to come. (Things are going to get _far_ worse 
in the the coming decades, even if we were to stop pumping CO2 into the 
air entirely now.)


    We are discovering knock-on processes daily that make matters worse 
and accelerate to worsening global warming and climate change. The 
planet has _never_ heated up so fast, so we have no history to look back 
on to predict what other accelerating knock-on effects will kick in. No 
one is optimistic. No one. The consensus is that it is gong to be very 
very bad.


    Having said this, not continuing to shovel coal into the boiler of 
the runaway locomotive is still the very best option and will help lead 
to the least gruesome future outcome as we speed towards the 
metaphorical cliff.


 Soapbox Mode = 

   Bill D.

On 12/17/2023 10:55 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

Oil and gas should not be demonised in the medium-term, Elon Musk, the
founder of electric car maker Tesla (TSLA.O), said on Saturday, but he also
said it was important to reduce carbon emissions to preserve the planet.

Musk, speaking at a right-wing political gathering organised by Italian
Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy party, said: "Climate
change alarm is exaggerated in the short term," adding that the
environmental movement may have gone too far, causing people to lose faith
in the future.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/oil-gas-should-not-be-demonized-elon-
musk-says-2023-12-16/

or https://v.gd/n5ctOQ

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  Elon Musk has lost his wife, his kids, his spaceship, and 40 billion
  dollars.  It's like some kind of country music that doesn't even
  exist yet.

   -- John Carlsen

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Re: [EVDL] consumer reports EV reliability

[Bill Dube via EV]

These stats don't align with my personal experience. We have owned two 
used Leafs over the past 7 years and have had zero (0) issues. Changed 
tires, changed wiper blades, and filled the windshield washer fluid. 
Never brought either in for any repair. How did Nissan fair compared to 
others in the mix?


It may be that the complaints arise from consumer misunderstanding of 
how to correctly/optimally use the vehicle. Perhaps unrealistic 
expectations might also play some role in the low score.


For example, the person that I sold our first Leaf to plugged the 
charger into the car, but somehow neglected to plug the charger into the 
wall when he first got the car. This went on for several days until he 
realized that the battery was nearly flat.


Bill D.

On 12/1/2023 4:37 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I don't have access to consumer reports, but this article summarized it:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/consumer-reports-electric-vehicles-less-reliable-on-average-than-conventional-cars-and-trucks/ 



...
Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from the 2021 through 2023 
model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than did vehicles 
propelled by internal combustion engines.

...
Consumer Reports said EV owners most frequently reported troubles with 
battery and charging systems as well as flaws in how the vehicles’ 
body panels and interior parts fit together.

...
The Consumer Reports survey also concluded that plug-in hybrids, which 
can travel on battery power before a gas-electric powertrain kicks in, 
are more problem-prone than fully electric vehicles. [Do the stats 
include plug-ins or just pure EVs ?]

...
EVs from the 2021 and 2022 model years overall had more than twice the 
problem rates of internal combustion vehicles. The rates were more 
closely aligned in the 2023 model year: Those EVs had only 21% more 
problems than gasoline vehicles, Fisher said.

...
Consumer Reports says its survey of subscribers, representing 330,000 
vehicles, took place last spring and summer. It asked owners of 
vehicles from the 2000 through 2023 model years, with a smattering of 
2024 models, about problems they had experienced in the previous 12 
months. [What are the stats for pre 2021 models ?]


-

I think it's highly misrepresentative. They only reported problems for 
the last 2-3 years. That means the type of problems reported are 
likely due to manufacturing problems rather than durability. If they 
had gone over 10 years, I wonder what the stats would be.


If anyone has access to consumer reports, I'd like to know what the 
full report says. Did seattle times misrepresent EVs or did consumer 
reports ?


P.S. I used to read consumer reports but found they typically review 
only new products and don't look at how products hold up during their 
lifetime. That's nice but only half the story.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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Re: [EVDL] I destroyed an A123 26650 by shorting to the case.

[Bill Dube via EV]

The A123 26650 M1-B cells will throw over 200 amps to a short circuit. 
Considerably more if they are at optimum temperature. :-)


The short circuit current will actually go up as the cell heats up. This 
assumes that whatever caused the short hasn't vaporized


These are _very_ well designed cells. They will last over 10,000 cycles 
BTW. 100% discharge and charge at 1C rate, 20 Celsius, and retain more 
than 50% of the original capacity. No Joke.


Bill D.

On 11/28/2023 6:15 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Lawrence, when I removed some of the cells from that pack that you picked
up, I cut the straps with heavy duty scissors.
One time I accidentally shorted the cell I was removing while cutting and
the current was large enough to bite a chunk out of the scissor blades...
These are *very* low resistance cells, so the short circuit current
consequently is very high, even at the low 3.5V of a single cell.
Cor.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 9:06 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:


https://youtu.be/zEXx_2Caefc?si=j66-Advfy42A7-Aq I wasn't too careful
separating some cells. Nicked a few. Used in flashlights they are awesome.
However,  I nicked a few near the base and my hacked flashlight spring
shorted the cell. Smoke and brown fluid.  Oops. I will tape nicks and avoid
making them in the future. Also use an adapter of pvc for extra safety.
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Expensive batteries

[Bill Dube via EV]

There are often tax advantages to structuring maintenance costs as a lease.

Bill D.

On 10/17/2023 7:00 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-owners-bill-battery-damaged-ev-
scotland-weather-2023-10

or https://v.gd/yIsSe4

Ouch.  That price, $21k, seems a tad pricey.

Regrettably the article is sorely lacking in detail.  It doesn't even
specify the Tesla model or the battery capacity.

I could certainly be wrong but my guess is that Tesla sold the owner a new
battery.  Presumably there were no refurbs to be had.

I can't find the source now but I recall reading - maybe in a web forum -
that most EV manufacturers, at least in Europe, maintain a stock of refurb
batteries for warranty service.  They don't fit new ones because the
warranty usually promises only to keep the capacity above some threshold,
typically around 70% of original; also because the manufacturers are
skinflints.

One solution for the EV owner is leasing the battery, if not the car.  When
we bought our Zoe in 2020, Renault was still offering the car with a leased
battery.  They no longer are, AFAIK.

In the end, we took the purchased battery option, but we debated going for
the lease.  Renault promised that if we leased, we'd never have less than
70% capacity.  Also, the monthly cost would have been fairly low for our low
KM/year usage.

But there are non-lease alternatives.  I haven't looked into this, but maybe
someone else has: is manufacturer, dealer, or third-party EV battery
insurance (extended warranty) available?

It seems like it might be a viable business.  Something like pay $A per
month and the insurer guarantees that you'll have a battery of B% capacity
for C years; or pay $X per month and if your battery falls below Y% capacity
within Z years you'll get a new one.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[Bill Dube via EV]

I agree with Phil.

I also doubt that cell towers are the root cause of your issue.

The problem is likely due to the motor wiring and other power wiring not 
kept separate/distant from the throttle wiring. The throttle wiring 
needs to be a small, shielded, 3-wire cable, kept very distant from any 
battery or motor cables.


Additionally, the motor cables need to be kept very close to one 
another, and the battery cables need to travel in pairs that are also 
kept close to one another. Every battery cable that emerges from a 
battery module needs to be paired tightly with the opposite polarity 
battery cable carrying the return current.


Basically, bundle up the power leads, and motor leads on one side of the 
car. Put the shielded throttle wire (at least twisted if not shielded) 
far away from the power cables, preferably on the opposite side of the car.


A classic "self-inflicted wound" in DIY EV's is several battery boxes 
distributed around the car and wired in a large single cable, series 
loop, that surrounds the perimeter of the car. This loop acts like a 
very nice loop antenna that bathes the entire vehicle in RF. Everything 
electronic in the vehicle goes nuts when you press the throttle.


Bill D.

 On 6/24/2023 5:48 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Unless you have a cell tower right in your driveway (near-field), it's
highly unlikely that's the cause.  More likely would be a local cell-phone
(yours) inside the car causing this when it responds to control channel
messages or you are on a call.

The most energy a cell tower puts out is somewhere below a few watts in
total, and due to the Inverse Square law: The radiation Intensity is
inversely proportional to the square of the distance.   A WiFi access point
close to your car is going to expose it to more RF than a cell tower a
block away, but in either case the energy at the car is super low.  It
would take an exceptionally "perfect storm" of bad engineering in the EV to
have this be a cause.

More likely it's interfering with itself.  The amount of electrical and RF
noise in an EV is astounding, which is why even on carefully engineered
production EVs, AM radio doesn't work so well, and why it's being removed
from most of them.  There are myriad ways your home-built EV could be doing
this, but impossible to determine without a thorough analysis.  Though
obvious things to consider; Did you use shielded HV cables?  Did you take
steps to minimize wire length, especially from controller to motor?  Are
these routed as close together as practical?  Are they shielded?   What
about the battery wiring?  Did you design the layout to minimize battery
loop inductance?  Is the motor and controller grounded to the body with a
heavy flat braided jumper?

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 10:30 AM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:


I have converted a 1985 Avanti to an EV and with the current LFP battery
pack I have a reasonable range of about 100 miles.  Everything works well
with different components from different sources.  However, one problem I
have yet to resolve is what appears to be interference from Cell towers
which basically seems to cut out the throttle and at slow speeds can
actually cause the vehicle to shut off and then come back on as the car
moves relative to the cell tower position.  I have contacted a number of
people and suppliers about the issue and tried a number of things to
provide RF protection but have not been able to solve the problem.   Has
anyone ever experienced this issue and a possible solution?
David Heacock
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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[Bill Dube via EV]

When they went from a simple NEMA 14-50 plug for charging to a 
complicated system that "enables" (requires) your car and the charger to 
communicate, you unintentionally gave up your privacy when using a 
public charger.


The car and the charger can get quite chummy and share all sorts of 
information while you are blissfully charging while sipping your latte.


    If you want privacy, you should either charge at home or charge 
using your own charger plugged into a NEMA 14-50 (or ordinary outlet.)


    Perhaps some enterprising person will come up with an "anonymizer" 
charging cord that will limit the data from your car to the very minimum 
needed to get a charge. (A bit like the "power but not data sharing" USB 
cord that your use to connect your phone to public airport phone 
charging stations.)  Perhaps it might disguise your vehicle as some very 
early, unintelligent, very basic EV that just replies with generic; 
"More please, I'm fine, and We are done."


Bill D.

On 6/11/2023 6:26 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

>> They want to gather data. It has serious value.
>
> And I don't want to give it to them.
>
> I'm paying them to charge.  I don't owe them anything else.

Oh come now, David. The overall mindset of anyone and everyone who 
uses a schmott phone or any one or other of social media sites is that 
"My privacy is shot anyway so why try to prevent them from knowing 
everything about me and everyone I have contact with".


People in general (apparently many of them here as well), are 
perfectly willing to give away everything for convenience while paying 
for the privilege of providing it.


I actually stopped consuming alcohol last fall after Kroger insisted 
that ALL purchases of wine, beer, cough syrup, etc required the 
scanning of the purchaser's identification as a condition of sale. A 
head of gray hair and face full of wrinkles is no longer proof of age.


Screw 'em. Screw 'em all.

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Re: [EVDL] Game over the Tesla NACS wins the day

[Bill Dube via EV]

They want to gather data. It has serious value.

The vehicle "talks" to the charger and exchanges data. Vehicle type. 
Vehicle ID. State of charge. Battery health. _Lots_ of data is given to 
the charger.


Bill D.


On 6/10/2023 9:52 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 9 Jun 2023 at 8:04, Tom Keenan via EV wrote:


I´m curious how Tesla will do billing for non-Tesla vehicles. Will the
vehicle be identified by the charging station (as Teslas are at
superchargers?) or will it be via app?

Dumb question, maybe, but assuming that the terminal is open to all EVs, why
do they need to identify vehicles at all?

If the user presents a valid credit card, or maybe an RFID card if you must,
then let him charge.  Credit cards work just fine for gasoline filling
stations.

What am I missing here?


I also wonder if Tesla will disallow some vehicles (or certain models)
from charging on the supercharger network if something were to occur,
such as... a dispute with the other manufacturer?

Yeah, this. Musk scares me.  I can totally see him doing something like
this, even if it means losing revenue.

He seems to get weirder and more unpredictable by the day. Watching him
flush ~$30 billion in value while making Twitter into his own personal
playground was quite eye--opening.

I really wonder if he's starting to lose it, maybe partly from overwork.

There'll be adapters to CCS-charge those new NACS Fords and GMs - right?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric

[Bill Dube via EV]

Toyota is a closely held business. I believe it may be owned by a family.
They were on the forefront of alternative fuels for many years, but they 
stubbornly would not come out with a battery powered vehicle, until 
everyone else came out with one and they basically had no choice.


I suspect that someone has the ear of the owner (or the oldest, and thus 
most influential family member,) or perhaps the owner has the an 
incorrect vision of the future of the car market.


If it were a publicly owned company, it would have long ago jumped on 
the EV bandwagon.


Having said that, the Prius hybrid came out at a time when every other 
car maker thought it was a very foolish move. The Prius would not have 
been built if Toyota was a publicly owned company.


Bill D.

On 5/19/2023 12:00 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  They seem to want to go bankrupt. Their resistance to battery EVs is 
irresponsible. It is a matter of time. They can catch up  but it will take 
time. Their hydrogen side track is not helping. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Electric Plane by Bearhawk kits

[Bill Dube via EV]

Hi Mark,
    The most straightforward way to add redundancy and to solve the 
overheating problem is to install a second motor on the same shaft and 
run it with the second inverter. Close to the redundancy of a twin 
engine aircraft. He could perhaps reduce the size of each the twin 
motors slightly to better match the controller output.


    Adds a bit of weight, but not a huge amount. Adds a significant 
amount of power, however.


    He can make the controller "fold back" to a lower output when it 
starts to get too warm in firmware. Far far better than a shutdown, or a 
controller failure.


On 4/30/2023 1:51 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Folks
I live near Bob Barrows bearhawkaircraft.com plane “experimental” kits to get 
around FAA requirements.  He and his associate are building a single seater 
electric version of his bearhawk kit. They’re using an Australian APD control 
with a 3K rpm direct drive BLDC (pulsed 3 phase) magnet motor ( so no brushes 
to fail).  They bought the package from a consultant in California and Mike was 
programming the controller with his laptop when I visited.  It runs fine at 
200A 120Vdc on a Lithium China pack but at 300A starts to overheat.  So they’re 
adding a second controller for flight redundancy and dual 3 phase windings in 
the motor in the next couple months.
Does anyone work on electric planes or is there an off the shelf electric drive 
(motor control) with a good reliable track record ?   Just don’t want to be 
reinventing the wheel here….  If you google Bob Barrows electric plane YouTube 
videos pop up about the construction and issues they’ve run into.  He estimates 
about 1/2 hour of flight time.
Stay Charged
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] A123 battery charger

[Bill Dube via EV]

Charging A123 Systems LiFePO4 cells:

    They are fully charged when the voltage reaches 3.45 volts and you 
should never go over ~3.6 during the charge. If you stay below ~3.6 
volts, you can charge these cells at whatever current you care to, just 
stay below ~3.6 volts. If you go above 3.8 volts, you are not doing the 
cell any favors, and you are certainly losing capacity during the time 
it is above this voltage. Go over 3.9 volts and you are probably going 
to start a fire. You are certainly going to burst the cell and leak 
electrolyte.


    These 26650 cells have cycle tested to over 16,000, 100% cycles in 
the lab. (1 C charge rate, and 1 C discharge rate. 100% discharge each 
cycle.) This is retaining 50% of the original capacity. Phenomenal cells.


    You can drop one of these into a flashlight that normally takes two 
size C cells, and make a spacer to substitute for the missing cell. 
Holds a charge for several years.


Bill D.

On 4/28/2023 3:40 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  I have some left over A123 Systems ANR2665M1A cells. I would like to use a 
few to power some flashlights. What charger works with these cells? Seems the 
specifications call for a different voltage than 18650s due to iron chemistry. 
Thanks, Lawrence Rhodes
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[EVDL] Smaller is not really cheaper (was: Tesla slashes its car prices as much as 20% to prop up sagging sales, where?s the $30K EV? A Chevy Bolt?)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Labor is the main expense in car manufacture. Materials for a larger 
vehicle add only an incremental cost. Luxury options cost just a tiny 
faction of what they consumer pays for them. It is not uncommon that the 
luxury option is just a change to the firmware and the additional cost 
to the manufacturer is actually zero.


This is why there has always been a push for larger cars and SUV's. 
Larger = more profits.


If you consider that all cars, regardless of size, have just four 
wheels, four brakes, four tires, one engine, one steering wheel, one 
engine management computer, etc. The labor is the same to assemble, not 
matter what size the car is. As the car grows in size, it is a larger 
shell of the same thickness, but the extra internal volume is air. The 
materials scale with the surface area, and not the volume. People are 
willing to pay considerably more a larger car, but they cost close to 
the same to manufacture.


You perceive that you are buying a bigger banana, but you are in reality 
just buying a bigger banana peel. The edible/nutritious/useful portion 
is unchanged.


People buy cars for emotional reasons, not for practical reasons. The 
automakers exploit that. Why wouldn't they?



Bill D.


On 1/21/2023 12:54 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
I keep hearing that Tesla might introduce a smaller, cheaper EV.  
That would

open up EVs to a wider range of drivers, but would also cut into their
profits.


I continue to wonder why a smaller cheaper car would mean lower 
profits. It seems like there are endless examples of cars (and many 
other products) where profits *increased* when cheaper versions were 
produced in higher volumes.


A smaller car uses less materials, so can be cheaper to produce.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Bill Dube via EV]

You haven't actually met Elon, have you.

I have it on good authority that Elon is a very very difficult man to 
work for. This may be why he is so successful, perhaps.


What I read in the news lately about Elon seems completely in character 
for him. I don't doubt anything I have read so far in the least.


Bill D.

On 12/19/2022 5:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Alleged mis-behavior

Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone




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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Bill Dube via EV]

Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be 
unpopular.
The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will 
charge peak rates for electricity.


Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more 
reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you 
are willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is 
like eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a 
daily basis and eat at home for far less money.


Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks 
will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and 
will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid 
capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry 
will find the most economical electricity price.


EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs 
with the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking 
company will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done 
rarely.) EV trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their 
battery range.


Bill D.


On 11/25/2022 4:58 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Hi Bill,

I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer 
on the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter 
where I'm wrong.


If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some calcs.

Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one 
truck charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.) 

39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50 
trucks in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 
50 * 100kW = 5MW. That's a pretty good load.


Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the 
grid has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations 
is still not a big problem, though.


But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers 
on long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if 
they drive 500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge 
at least once en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given 
moment, there could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That 
would be a 10MW power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed 
beyond capacity along some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also 
going to have to handle new loads from EV cars, etc.


A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the 
peaks and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for 
use at night. And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to 
be quite significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, 
you know, there are cloudy days, etc.


And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience 
along the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on 
the freeway at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That 
means, "overnight" charging can happen during the day.


In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many 
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well 
taken that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less 
load on the grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I 
can imagine new apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing 
projections, e.g. charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or 
in 100 miles, two hours awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some 
choices to mull over.


Peri


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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Bill Dube via EV]

Hi Peri,


    Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, 
but mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in mind.
   The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland 
seem to have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be 
swapped out quickly for charging.     They will tend to charge these 
spare packs when is it least expensive to do so.


   Both  the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push 
charging off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only has 
issues during periods of peak demand, typically in the late afternoon. 
For most of the 24 hours in a day, the grid operators have surplus 
capacity. During the late evening and before dawn, they have _heaps_ of 
surplus capacity. They would be overjoyed to sell this wasted excess 
grid capacity if they could do so.


    The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel 
for a few cents less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. The 
grid operators simply have to offer some sort of off-peak charging 
incentive (or an on-peak charging surcharge) and the "problem" is easily 
solved.


    Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) 
water heaters on a system that is controlled by the power utility. The 
utility will switch off the water heater element during peak times to 
move the consumption to help grid capacity. All done with "ripple 
signals" from the utility over the power wires to your water heater 
circuit. You can participate or choose not to by simply pressing a 
button on your electrical panel. You will pay full price for the 
electricity to heat you water if you do, however. _Everyone_ in New 
Zealand has a sophisticated electronic meter that logs what you are 
drawing and what time you did it, then sends this continuously to the 
power utility over the power wires.


    There is no EV grid crisis looming. I have no idea who is 
propagating this nonsense.


    Bill D.


On 11/24/2022 8:17 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about 
providing power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your 
argument works well for small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to 
see what you have to say about long haul trucks. I highly respect your 
points of view.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a 
little intelligence.


There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.

>>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>

    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the 
peak times of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ 
during the day, and are charged when they are parked, during the 
night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off peak and 
the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.


>>>>>>>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do 
you charge from solar? <<<<


    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can 
take it out at another. This is what it does. Use it.


    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the 
grid, you can draw it out from a location other than your home to 
charge your EV. It is simply a matter of giving the grid operator 
incentive to take a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation, 
financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No brainer.


>>>>>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, 
electric heat, etc. <<<<<<


    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has 
very nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, 
electric heat, and power hungry home appliances.


    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will 
adapt. EVs and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and 
back on to "park shave" during periods of peak load. The grid 
operators simply have to decide on which of the many methods they 
want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and offer you an 
incentive to participate.


Bill D.



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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

[Bill Dube via EV]

No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little 
intelligence.


There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.

>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>

    There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak 
times of the day.  No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the 
day, and are charged when they are parked, during the night. Provide an 
economic incentive to folks to change off peak and the grid capacity 
"problem" vanishes.


 Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do 
you charge from solar? 


    It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can 
take it out at another. This is what it does. Use it.


    If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, 
you can draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your 
EV. It is simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take 
a reasonable fee for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, 
public sentiment, etc. No brainer.


>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric 
heat, etc. <<


    The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has 
very nicely adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, 
electric heat, and power hungry home appliances.


    As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. 
EVs and EV chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to 
"park shave" during periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have 
to decide on which of the many methods they want to use to talk to your 
EV or your charger, and offer you an incentive to participate.


Bill D.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Bill Dube via EV]

There are many varieties of Li Ion to choose from. At this point in 
time, Li Ion appears to be the primary secondary, so to speak, battery 
choice. :-)


Lead acid, much like other legacy technologies, will take some time to 
fade into the background. It is simply a matter of time.


Lead acid batteries _claim_ to be 95%+ recycled, but the actual lead 
usage figures (from the lead industry's own website) tell a different 
story.


About 50% of all lead used comes from recycled lead, but the other 50% 
comes from lead mines. This 50/50 mix has been the case for at least a 
decade. About 80% of all lead is used in the production of lead-acid 
batteries. (Again, these figures are right from the lead industry's 
website.) If you think about that for just a moment, it becomes apparent 
that at _least_ 30% of lead acid batteries must be escaping recycling. 
(Likely more than 30% since some fraction of the other lead use products 
are indeed recycled.)


Obviously, the lead industry's claim that 95% of lead-acid batteries 
cannot be correct. I suspect that 95% of the lead-acid batteries that 
manage to enter the gates of the recycling facility manage to be 
recycled, rather than 95% of _all_ lead-acid batteries are recycled.


Numerous lead smelter facilities have ended up as super-fund sites. For 
a brief period in my life, I lived in what was discovered to be in the 
plume of such a super-fund site. Globeville, CO.  They removed the top 
few inches of soil from the entire neighborhood, carted it away, and 
replaced it. Thankfully, I was not there during the years that the 
smelter was in operation. I know people that were, however, and they 
were very obviously affected.


Another interesting fact is that there are about 2500 _reportable_ 
injuries from lead-acid batteries in ICE cars in the USA every year, 
mostly due to accidental hydrogen explosions. There are certainly more 
unreported injuries, and incidents.


No doubt, we will move on from lead-acid batteries.

Bill D.

On 10/31/2022 11:15 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Don’t forget that recycling of lead acid batteries contaminates the communities 
around them, creating major health problems to those near them and downwind.



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On Oct 30, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

Peri Hartman wrote:

There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What
else can be done?

EV List Lackey wrote:

Nickel metal hydride?

There are actually lots of rechargeable battery technologies that could be 
used. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.

It's unfortunate that manufacturers tend to prefer a monoculture. "One thing to rule 
them all". But anything that you try to apply to 8 billion people is bound to cause 
unforeseen problems. Different applications should really use different solutions.

Lead-acid is cheap, and widely recyclable. But it's relatively heavy and has a 
low energy density. It still makes sense for short-range EVs like golf carts, 
fork lifts, scooters, etc. Also, don't forget that virtually every ICE is still 
using lead-acids.

Nickel-based batteries (nickel-iron, nickel-cadmium, nimh) have higher energy 
density and longer life, and the materials are relatively abundant. Nickel is 
expensive, but fairly easy to recycle (though it's not being widely done for 
batteries).

Lithium-based batteries have the highest energy density, but are expensive, 
less safe, and (at least for the present) not being recycled.

And, there are lots of other chemistries that could be used. We should be 
exploring *every* option; not just blindly picking one.

Lee Hart

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--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV taxing

[Bill Dube via EV]

    Don't tax fuel. Tax tires.

    If you tax tires according to their load rating, and also perhaps 
by their wear rating, you can properly tax vehicles on how much "road" 
they are "using up."


    There is a down side to this approach. Folks will not replace worn 
out tires. They will also buy the very cheapest tires possible. Unsafe 
incentive.


    Bill D.

On 6/15/2022 11:13 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
By no means am I any sort of an expert on this, but I have been 
following some of the efforts by Oregon to replace/augment/make more 
equitable the road fuel tax structure, both for EV's and ICE's.


One pilot program was based on annual mileage. The shake-down at the 
end of the program was that it was unfeasible due to several problems.


1) Reporting of mileage would be an honorary task for owners of older 
cars that didn't have integrated GPS systems. Add-on GPS devices could 
be purchased and installed, but the up-front costs didn't appeal to 
potential participants. I believe that smart phones were proposed as a 
solution, but... (see #2, below)


2) There was a lot of push-back from drivers who feared that the GPS 
devices, either integrated in the car's navigation system, or the 
add-on/phone app, would be used for tracking and potential privacy 
invasion.


3) There was no reliable way that any GPS could accurately determine 
if the car was being operated on a public highway or private property. 
Obviously, if you are racking up miles on Interstate 5, that's beyond 
question, but what about those fractions of miles that add up off the 
public streets? My driveway is 1/3 mile long,  am I going to have to 
apply for an exemption for the .6 miles that I drive on my own 
property each time I go to town?


4) The state doesn't necessarily get 100% of road fuel tax dollars. 
Some of it goes to the counties where the fuel was purchased, and 
there are city municipalities that add a local fuel tax on top of the 
fed and state taxes. The GPS can give a rough picture of where you did 
your driving, but when it comes down to fractions of a cent times 
multi-millions of miles, accuracy is demanded. Cities that enjoy a tax 
base generated by gas purchase would be losing some of that revenue to 
out-of-town use of the same fuel purchase.


5) The program did nothing to tax itinerant users of roads, tourists, 
truckers, etc. who don't report mileage to OR. At least the current 
system catches some of them at a fuel pump before they cross out of 
the borders.


The only halfway effective way to get road maintenance money out of 
drivers, is to convert all major thoroughfares to toll roads. Imagine 
how popular that would be. Still, if there was a drive-on scale at the 
toll booth, weight could be factored into the toll for a more accurate 
compensation of road wear. Add detectors for studded tires, and they 
might be able to make enough easy money to leave us poor EV'sters alone.


Overall, anything much beyond an at-the-pump, per-gallon-fee will be 
creating a storm of additional accounting and record keeping. My 
electric bicycle looks better al the time.


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Re: [EVDL] leaf heater switch

[Bill Dube via EV]

The Leaf has an app that runs on your cellphone that can allow it to 
pre-heat or pre-cool the car interior while it is plugged in. You can 
also set a time to do this manually from the dash. Makes a HUGE 
difference in range if you can use this feature.


Easier than defeating the heater somehow. You also _really_ need the 
heater and/or air conditioning to defog the windshield. The blower alone 
just doesn't do it.


Bill D.

On 5/19/2022 8:48 AM, redscooter via EV wrote:
 on youtube there some  switch to modify so the heat does  not come on 
just the fan only .

My 2011 needs all the power it can. any exp with this ?
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[EVDL] EVolocity vs Electrathon (Was: Lead acid battery rule (was Electrathon America)

[Bill Dube via EV]

During the "Economy Run" portion of the event, each of the vehicles is 
fitted with a supplied electronics which stops the power flow after 30 
W-hrs. Thus, the battery type, voltage, capacity, temperature, etc. 
doesn't matter. How far your vehicle can travel on a fixed amount of 
energy is what counts.


Here is a link with an outline of a typical event and the categories of 
the competition:

https://evolocity.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/EV-categories-2021.pdf
Here is a link to the webpage:
https://evolocity.co.nz/

EVolocity is a highly successful competition series that grows in 
participants every year for over a decade and adds sponsoring companies 
each year as well.


EVolocity and Electrathon have similar vehicles and have similar 
educational goals. They have similar roots. EVolocity, however, has 
tailored its rules specifically to suit high schools, and to promote 
STEM "hands on" education, which is what I believe is what makes it 
attractive to corporate sponsors. You attract sponsors, and this allows 
you to expand the program to include all sorts of kids workshops and 
"educator's education" sessions, and the program then attracts more 
teams, and then more sponsors, etc.


You can try to revive the Electrathon competition once again, but 
history has shown after multiple resuscitation attempts, that for 
whatever reason, the competition was not sustainable. It does not appeal 
to many corporate sponsors, nor get any substantial government support. 
It does not have spectator appeal either. I think it is beating a dead 
horse, unfortunately.


On 4/24/2022 2:17 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 24 Apr 2022 at 13:55, Bill Dube via EV wrote:


Here in NZ, the EVolicity competition supplies an electronic gizmo that
restricts/measures the wattage of the drivetrain.

Thus, any type of battery may be used.

Interesting.  Do they have any restrictions on the amount energy (Wh) the
battery can store?

On the weight or size of the battery?

Is range part of the competition?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
  Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?"
  Then later they say, "Oh."

   -- Found on the Net
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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[EVDL] Lead acid battery rule (was Electrathon America)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Here in NZ, the EVolicity competition supplies an electronic gizmo that 
restricts/measures the wattage of the drivetrain.


Thus, any type of battery may be used.

It's a HS competition, so putting a cap on the wattage actually works.

Bill D.

On 4/24/2022 4:40 AM, Gary Krysztopik via EV wrote:

We've been trying to work in new rules for lithium but have not
passed/published anything yet.  There are some accommodations in the rules
and some are using lithium but it's still mostly two 12V SLA's.  Grin
Cycles can make a CycleAnalyst that will shut the system down after 1kWh is
used, so that would be part of it.  Right now there is only enough funding
and volunteer(s) to keep the basic organization operating but I'm looking
forward to getting some grant money.  We are closing out our first local
micro-grant and then we can apply for more.  We started laying out
curriculum, sent hundreds of outreach emails to central Oregon (restricted
per grant), put together a simple drive kit and will give some away, and
made CAD models and are trying to set up a GrabCAD group with wheels,
motors, etc.  I'd really love to see this program take off (get funding)
and expand like Bill was talking about in New Zealand.  I think there is
potential to include more practical vehicles and more competitions, and
bring it to a national level.  The obstacles are 1) knowledgeable teachers
(with extra time and money) which is why I tried to develop curriculum and
kits to help get started, 2) cost (it's expensive to build even a simple
EV) which is why I wanted to sponsor new teams with a complete drive system
kit and 3) events are few and far between with increasing insurance costs
(energy company and Toyota sponsorships keep them going).

Help share with people to let them know - www.ElectrathonAmerica.org

Thanks!
Gary

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022 at 8:25 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:


Does it still require using a lead-acid battery?

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key




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[EVDL] OT: Whatever happened to Steve Van Ronk ? (was: Electrathon America)

[Bill Dube via EV]

    This Electrathon topic brought to mind Steve Van Ronk, who was a 
nagging thorn in the side of Electrathon America. Electrathon America 
finally when to court against Steve. Steve claimed all sorts of 
infringement etc. for many years and threatened the regional chapters 
(including Colorado) with lawsuits. Electrathon America "won" the suit 
against Steve, and got some sort of restraining order, but the 
competition never really recovered from Steve's relentless and dogged 
efforts prior to the court's ruling.


I recently Googled Steve to figure out whatever happened to him as I 
hadn't heard a peep from him for decades. I pieced together an 
interesting story:


    He toured in a converted vintage ford truck and sold his artwork 
for quite a few years. (Not sure how he actually supported himself, 
though.) He even went to Australia and New Zealand.


    In about 2013, he sold all his worldly goods and bought a 41 ft 
sailboat. He lived in it and fixed it up for a few years in dry dock, 
and renamed it "Mystique". He sailed it to Mazatlan, Mexico in 2021, 
(but it wasn't clear if he made this trip solo or found someone to help 
crew the ship. I suspect alone.)


    He then set sail for the Marshal Islands, alone. (This did not end 
well.) After having a number of difficulties during the journey, he 
diverted to Hilo, Hawaii. He _almost_ made it to Hilo, but ran into 
trouble with the rudder just off shore and had to abandon the Mystique, 
which wrecked on a reef. He was rescued by the coast guard, but escaped 
with just his sodden passport.


    He is now apparently penniless and, it seems, homeless in Hilo, 
Hawaii. He doesn't have a phone or a computer.


    He has a GoFundMe page that was put up by a kind acquaintance in Hilo:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-steve-van-ronk-get-back-on-his-feet

    You may, or may not, wish to throw Steve a couple of bucks on his 
GoFundMe page.


    Bill D.





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Re: [EVDL] Electrathon America

[Bill Dube via EV]

Hi Gary et al.

    I have built a couple of Electrathon cars (and have great 
admiration for Dave Cloud's Electrathon designs) and have participated a 
bit in years past. Educational and great fun for the participants. 
(Spectators, not so much. )


    There is a extremely successful and thriving Electrathon-esk 
competition here in New Zealand called EVolocity:


    https://evolocity.co.nz/

    Eva and I regularly participate as mentors in EVolocity. Eva 
regularly gives talks and workshops on CAD and 3D printing to EVolocity 
teams throughout New Zealand. More than forty high schools across both 
the south and north islands have active EVolocity teams. The competition 
is for high schools (and perhaps a few middle schools.) It is 
exclusively for school kids, and no adult teams are allowed.


    The events have a number of different competition areas. They 
indeed have an endurance type portion of the event, but they are 
required to compete in other race formats as well such as a drag race, a 
top speed race, a "gymkhana" maneuverability portion, a show and 
innovation category, all sorts of things. An event completely fills the 
day for the teams.


    If you are looking to start an educational electric bike/vehicle 
construction competition, EVolocity is an excellent place to begin.


    Bill D.



On 4/22/2022 3:01 PM, Jim Waite via EV wrote:

Hi Gary & All,
A major participant/promoter of Electrathon racing in the Seattle area was Dave 
Cloud. Sadly Dave passed away about a year ago.

He & his brother founded Cloud Racing, which for years provided guidance & 
often bleeding edge innovation resulting in a long string of wins (I was fortunate to 
have driven in a couple of his cars which frankly is WAY more fun than I ever 
expected…skirting the track at 45+ mph with your butt a mere 2-3 inches above the 
pavement is to say the least exhilerating!)

I’m no longer an active member but hope some other folks (Madman Rudman, etc.) 
from SEVA will chime in here for further assistance.
Best regards,
Jim Waite


On Apr 21, 2022, at 12:04 PM, Gary Krysztopik  wrote:

I'm wondering how many have heard of or participated in Electrathon
racing?  We'd like to grow the program by getting the word out and getting
some funding (there are both 501(c)3 and 501(c)7 parts to the
organization).  So if you know anyone that might want to build a simple EV
race car, or if you know someone with too much money, please let them know
about the program.  The website is being reworked, and we are offering
simple drive system kits to get going as well as creating a CAD environment
with all the parts to play with. Hopefully more coming soon.  The most
activity is in FL, TX, KS, NE, and CT where there are regular events
scheduled.

www.ElectrathonAmerica.org

Thanks,
Gary Krysztopik
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[EVDL] The KillaJoule at the Petersen Automotive Museum (Los Angeles)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Eva's record setting electric motorcycle, the KillaJoule, is now on 
display at the Petersen Automotive Museum in Los Angeles Calif.


Great photos here:

https://www.petersen.org/killajoule

They shipped it all the way from New Zealand!

The KillaCycle is also on display right next to it, but they only had to 
ship that from the Forney Transportation Museum in Denver. Not nearly as 
pretty, also not nearly as fast. :-)


Check the exhibit out if you are in L.A.

You can also read about it on Eva's FB page and see a few more photos of 
the actual display:


https://www.facebook.com/EvaHakanssonRacing/

Bill D.


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[EVDL] Cutting urethane car adhesive (was: Leaf 12 upgrade to 60kw)

[Bill Dube via EV]

They typically use a specialized knife to cut this urethane adhesive on 
windshields and other autobody panels. (The blade used to be heated 
electrically, but these are falling out of fashion. The old style 
adhesive was not urethane, but rather more like tar. You had to melt it 
as much as cut it.)


These knives generally are small and have a hook shape. The have a 
cable, with a pull handle, attached at the root of the blade. You use 
one hand to guide and steer the blade through the adhesive, and the 
other hand to apply major force to the blade. Quite effective.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/372653587648

Be sure to buy extra blades as they are damaged and/or wear out routinely.

They also use a thin sharp blade on a vibratory tool, or a small thin 
hook blade with a special cable handle for the tool itself, to cut the 
adhesive. Pretty much a "power" version of the manual tool above.


A visit to your local windshield replacement shop might be a useful to 
see how the professionals make short work of cutting these automotive 
urethane seals.


Bill D.


On 4/12/2022 1:36 PM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

You need a really thin blade, you just want to cut the adhesive, not the
metal.  I used one of these:
https://amzn.to/3E1I6Wm

With a blade like this: https://amzn.to/373V75P

The tool oscillates really fast and slices through the adhesive like
butter.  You just run it down the side.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 6:17 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:


I used pry-bars and screwdrivers & putty knifes on a 2013 leaf battery
that was glued together. Now that I know what is inside (and how to not
hit it), I'd use an air chisel.

Jay

On 4/11/22 21:01, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

FYI:  I have opened the 60kWh LEAF packs, it can be done with a vibrating
multitool blade.   Much easier than a Tesla pack!




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Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Bill Dube via EV]

The float voltage is 13.5 to 13.8 volts. That is what you would expect 
to see on the battery terminals when the car has been running for 
awhile. Charging begins at about 13 volts, BTW. All these voltages are 
at 25 Celsius. Colder means higher charging voltage (and float voltage.) 
Hotter means lower charging voltage, and of course float voltage.


However, there is some distance and more than a few connections between 
the battery and the cigar lighter. There is certainly voltage drop along 
the way. Even so, I would be slightly concerned if I read 13.0 volts on 
the cigar outlet. A bit toward the low side when the car has been running...


Mark would be wiser to use the app "Leaf Spy" through the OBD connector 
to find out what the accessory system voltage is. At least what the car 
ECU is getting.

Bill D.

On 3/29/2022 12:59 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

The minimum charging voltage is 13.8 volts dc across the battery terminals, or 
at the output of the alternator. A single lead-acid cell starts to charge at 
anything over 2.25 volts. Since a 12 volt battery has six cells, any 12 volt 
lead-acid battery needs at least 13.8 volts to start to charge.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, March 27, 2022, 9:15 AM, mark hanson via EV  
wrote:

Hi Folks,

  


I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).    I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".

  


Best regards,

Mark

  



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Re: [EVDL] Followup: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

[Bill Dube via EV]

The voltage on a lead-acid battery goes _up_ in cold weather, by the way.

Under load in cold weather, however, the higher impedance will tend to 
make the 12 volt battery voltage sag under load.


But the the vehicle DC-DC is working when the brake issue arises, so the 
battery will play a smaller role. Worth looking at the 12 volt system 
voltage when the brakes are applied.


Perhaps there are additional loads such as power steering load that will 
cause the 12 volt sag when the brake boost becomes an issue.


Bill D.

On 3/28/2022 3:15 AM, mark hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Folks,

  


I checked the 12V aux voltage through the cigarette lighter socket with a
DVM and shows 13.0V during operation.  The low voltage storage codes over
time were caused by the vehicle sitting a long time and the ghost loads
dropping the battery voltage to 10V and had to recharge externally (also
sets low voltage codes when replacing the battery).I don't see *how* the
aux voltage operating at 13V has *any* effect on the brakes in *cold*
weather.  I'd love to see a technical explanation on this rather than "just
replace the good battery with a more expensive one".

  


Best regards,

Mark

  


From: mark hanson [mailto:markehans...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 10:08 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Nissan Leaf 2013 Cold Brake (dropout) Recall

  


Hi Folks,

  


After seeing this recall, 46.9K Leafs 2013-2016 and having my brakes drop
out in the cold (apparently regen appears to shut off when cold
intermittently), I took it to the wheeler-dealer:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0318/2013-2015-Nissan-Leaf-r
ecalled-for-braking-problem-46-000-vehicles-affected#:~:text=Nissan%20is%20r
ecalling%20more%20than,braking%20ability%20in%20cold%20weather.

=A%20Nissan%20Leaf%20electric%20car,(January%2012%2C%202016 ). I was
asked to report on the actual response (below)

  


The Roanoke VA Southern team Nissan dealer told me that the warranty expired
and had to charge me $250 for an hour of labor (I must be in the wrong
business) to read the software through the OBD-2 port and see if it had the
brake update.  I was told it had the latest update although I hadn't brought
it in before.  (In 2015 it was in for an air conditioner failure under
warranty.)  I was then told that the *12V Aux* battery is what was causing
the cold brake drop out *after* I printed out a photo of the red exclamation
point and temperature display at 25F *and* the recall notice, showed to
them.  (I guess they thought they would sell me a pricey battery).  I drove
it to Advance Auto and bought a new fancy Optima Yellow Top $330 battery to
replace the 2019 (Advance Auto battery I replaced still under warranty).
Since the present battery was still under warranty, they tested it and said
it was OK but gave me $189 store credit.

  


Dealer service dept response:

iPhone Message 3/8/22: "Hi This is Southern Team, we are calling because we
are looking over your vehicle.  Unfortunately what we are saying is you *do*
have the latest and greatest software installed to your vehicle regarding
the brakes and what we are noticing however is that your regular 12V battery
is registering 300 CCA to 397CCA and should be closer to 500CCA.  You also
have a bunch of low-voltage codes stored in the system from where we have
obviously plugged it in to perform a software update and see what software
version was installed last.  We think that the battery is what's causing the
light on the dash and resistance with your brakes - is actually related to
where your system doesn't have the appropriate amount of electrical current
running through it so they're recommending that you actually replace your
battery."

  


The printout after service reads in caps: "A CUSTOMER IS REQUESTING NEW
BRAKING SOFTWARE TO BE UPLOADED.  CUSTOMER BELIEVES THIS WILL CORRECT THE
CONCERN OF THE TRIANGLE LIGHT POPULATING AT TIMES WHEN BRAKING, FEELS LIKE
BRAKE BOOSTER ISN'T WORKING, ESPECIALLY WHEN BELOW FREEZING.  TAKES A LOT OF
EFFORT TO BRAKE --- UPLOAD SOFTWARE ONLY - 1.0  NBE INSPECTED VEHICLE AND
FOUND LATEST SOFTWARE FOR BRAKE SYSTEM ALREADY INSTALLED - LOW VOLT CODES
STORED - REC REPLC 12V, 381 CPN $250

41859 1.00 CUSTOMER REQUEST WE PERFORM A SOFTWARE UPDATE TO THE BRAKING
SYSTEM FOUND ONLINE WHERE IT WOULD FIX THEIR CONCERN.  CHECK BRAKE PART
NUMBER AND ADVISE CUSTOMER THERE IS NO UPDATE AVAILABLE FOR THE BRAKING
SYSTEM - IT HAS ALREADY BEEN REPROGRAMMED ELSEWHERE.  DID FIND MULTIPLE LOW
VOLTAGE CODES STORED DUE TO WEAK 12V BATTERY.  THIS CAN CAUSE THE SAME
CONCERNS YOU HAVE - RECOMMEND BATTERY REPLACEMENT."

  


Question: has anyone heard of with this recall with the 12V 

Re: [EVDL] Need to find a blocking diode for charger output

[Bill Dube via EV]

Mount a five (5) pin male connector ("inlet") on the side of the golf 
cart for the 120 VAC cord.


Connect the 120 VAC hot, neutral, and ground using three (3) of the 
pins, A, B, C, in both the golf cart and the cord portions of the connector.


In the golf cart, use the two (2) remaining pins, D and E,  to complete 
the DC charging circuit. One pin, D, is connected to, say, the charger 
negative lead lead. The other pin, E, is connected to the battery 
negative terminal.


In the cord portion of the connector, connect the two pins, D, and E, to 
each other.


When you are done charging your golf cart, disconnect the cord from 
wall, and then from the golf cart using this connector.


Done.

Bill D.


On 3/21/2022 8:54 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 20 Mar 2022 at 21:31, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:


Why are you unplugging the charger?
Typical Li-Ion chargers or BMS will shut off the power into the
battery when max level is reached.

Not to speak for Mr Nelso, and maybe I'm minunderstanding or misinterpreting
him, but but here is his answer from the same message you replied to.

"this charger puts a continuous 0.12A drain on the battery when the charger
is not plugged in. This golf cart is sometimes parked for a few months
during the winter and I don't want the charger running the battery flat."

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some
  humorous comments on lava.

-- Tom Lehrer
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Ukraine war and nickel

[Bill Dube via EV]

I believe the patent(s) have timed out, and with that, the core legal 
wranglings have as well.


Bill D.

On 3/14/2022 7:05 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 13 Mar 2022 at 10:59, Michael Ross via EV wrote:


I suppose this explains a lot about why Tesla (and Straubel) are leaning
hard towards LiFePO. Nickel and manganese, etc., are a problem? Don't use
them.

LFP has been (and I think still is) markedly lower in both energy density
and specific energy.  But it counters that with longer life, lower cost,
better inherent safety, and more common raw materials.

Since we don't seem to be able to get the automakers to give up their
constant drift toward ever larger vehicles, the downsides of LFP become less
significant.  A bloated SUV or massive pickup has lots of room for a big LFP
battery, and the battery's weight is less of a big deal when the wallowing
whale already weighs 2 tons or more.

That said, I don't know what the legal situation is with LFP.  I seem to
recall that licensing restrictions were one reason most of the LFP 10-15
years ago came from China.  Maybe someone can update us on that.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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[EVDL] KillaCycle acceleration (was: LOUD (was: snowmobiling))

[Bill Dube via EV]

The KillaCycle, long sitting in the Forney Transportation Museum in 
Denver, held the EV 0 to 60 mph record of 0.96 seconds until just a few 
months ago.


True Cousins latest EV motorcycle "Silver Lightning" has pretty much 
taken all the top records lately, including the quickest 0-60 mph record.
My hat is very much off to this Danish team: 
www.TrueCousins.dk/edragracing/silverlightning
They have clocked a 1.08 second 60 ft time, which averages 3.2 G's, and 
results in a zero to 60 MPH speed in a very impressive 0.86 seconds. 
(Which completely wipes out all previous EV records.)


BTW Both the KillaJoule and KillaCycle are being shipped to the Petersen 
Automotive Museum in Los Angeles, CA for display beginning in April. Eva 
and I are very excited to have our electric motorcycles on exhibit in 
the Petersen, as you can imagine.


Bill D.


On 3/1/2022 2:28 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 1 Mar 2022 at 13:47, Bill Dube via EV wrote:


"Do you want to make noise, or do you want to win races and set world
records? I'd rather set world records."

This pretty much ends the discussion, because it points out the
foolishness of the loud exhaust argument.

Says the gentleman responsible for an exceedingly fast (world's fastest at
the time, I think) e-motorcycle.

About 15 years ago, I watched some of the relatively early video clips of
Bill's Killacycle.  It took me quite some time to find my jaw on the floor.
There's not much noise, not much fuss, just motion.  Lots of motion.  It's
like watching a slug leave a slingshot.  One moment it's standing still and
the next it's a blur.

I'm sure that a Youtube search will turn up examples. It is most impressive.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  A great many people think they are thinking when they are
  really rearranging their prejudices.

 -- Edward R Murrow
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[EVDL] LOUD (was: snowmobiling)

[Bill Dube via EV]

My answer to this "joy of loud ICE noises" statement is:

"Do you want to make noise, or do you want to win races and set world 
records? I'd rather set world records."


This pretty much ends the discussion, because it points out the 
foolishness of the loud exhaust argument.


EV's are going to edge out ICE's in performance and in completion. The 
power-to-weight of an electric drive is vastly superior for events of 
about a 15 miles, but as battery technology improves, that time/distance 
constraint will go way. EV's own the top records on Pike's Peak Hill 
Climb. The land speed folks are slowly waking up to electric drive, and 
the drag racing crowd is slowly awakening.


Formula 1 cars make a buzz not unlike a blender. High rpm turbocharged 
ICE's with hybrid electric drive trains tend to make a high-pitched 
whine instead of the classic roar or rumble. Their goal is to win the 
race, not make any particular noise.


Bill D.

On 3/1/2022 7:25 AM, jim--- via EV wrote:

David Roden said (in small part):

Sometimes I think that for them, the noise and stink are features, not bugs.

They are out there..  I have a 30 year old son who is a "car guy" that firmly 
believes that real cars are LOUD!  The louder the better - both engine noise and stereo.

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] The electric future of snowmobiling

[Bill Dube via EV]

Snowmobiles have power requirements similar to boats or airplanes. 
Unlike cars (or trains) that draw little power once they are rolling, 
snowmobiles have considerable drag while moving through the snow. Thus, 
the range for a given battery capacity can be quite low, especially in 
deep, wet, snow. On hard packed trails, the drag can be much less.


Even with LiIon, range in an electric snowmobile is going to remain a 
significant hurdle.


Bill D.

On 3/1/2022 5:35 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Snowmobiles, and in summer noisy smelly ATVs, are a real nuisance for 
those wishing immersion in nature. Not to mention the pollution they 
leave behind.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/the-electric-future-of-snowmobiling/ 





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[EVDL] Wheel (hub) motors (was: X-Bus)

[Bill Dube via EV]

In a passenger car, at highway speeds, hub motors are a very bad idea. 
(Slow moving hub motor vehicles, like scissor-lifts and floor scrubbers, 
are a marvelous idea, BTW.)


Pretty much every major automotive manufacturer has prototyped a car 
with hub motors at one time or another through the years. Management 
comes up with the hub motor idea, and funds the building of a prototype. 
The one first was Porsche back in the late 1800's. Without exception, 
once they built a prototype car, capable of highways speeds, that had 
hub motors, they realized this "brilliant" idea had very serious 
shortcomings, and quietly abandoned the idea altogether.


The advantages are alluring and obvious, but the drawbacks are subtle 
and numerous. Every hub motor vehicle project dies the death of a 
thousand cuts.


The i-MiEV prototype started out as the MIEV (Mitsubishi In-wheel motor 
Electric Vehicle) prototype which had four hub motors. Then they changed 
the prototype to have only two hub motors. Then they changed it to a 
inboard single electric motor running a differential powering two 
wheels, just like everyone else does. Then they altered the acronym to 
i-MiEV (Mitsubishi Innovative Electric Vehicle) to quietly bury the 
original hub motor concept entirely.


Bill D.


I won't much get into the practicality of wheel motors.  They work well on
bikes so some engineers think they sound great on cars, until they actually
try them out.  The Mitsubishi Imiev was supposed to have them, too.



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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Car carrier on fire abandoned in Atlantic

[Bill Dube via EV]

I think that this ship will likely burn and then sink to the bottom of 
the ocean. Thus, we will likely never know what actually caused the fire.


Having said that, statistically, ICE cars catch fire _far_ more 
frequently than electric cars.


Bill D.

On 2/19/2022 3:23 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

I already get a lot of hits on the search term "felicity ace."  A *lot*.  As
usual it's hard to tell which are spammy content farms copying and pasting
each other, and which have valid original reporting, so I can't warrant
anything that follows.

This first piece cites "the captain of the nearest port ...Joao Mendes
Cabecas of the port of Horta" saying that "Lithium-ion batteries in the
electric cars on board the vehicle carrier Felicity Ace have caught fire and
the blaze requires specialist equipment to extinguish," but that "It was not
clear whether the batteries first sparked the fire."

https://www.marinelink.com/news/felicity-ace-ablaze-towing-vessels-en-494447

It doesn't say what led Cabecas to make that statement, or what his
qualifications are for so reporting.

This next report says that  "An internal email from Volkswagen's U.S.
operations revealed there were 3,965 Volkswagen AG vehicles aboard the ship
...Over 100 of those cars were headed for Port of Houston in Texas, with
GTI, Golf R, and ID.4 models deemed to be at risk ..."

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/felicity-ace-felicity-ace-cargo-ship-burning-
ship-carrying-porsches-audis-lamborghinis-drifts-in-atlantic-2774938

or https://v.gd/UTecxM

I've seen this "internal email" similarly cited in other stories as having
"revealed" information, but the email isn't directly quoted, its author
isn't identified, and nothing says whether the news piece's writer had
actual direct access to it, or is just repeating hearsay.  So, again, I
don't know how helpful this really is.

I expect that more details will emerge over the next 24 hours or so.

It sure does appear that some folks who've ordered EVs will be waiting for
them a while longer.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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-- George Carlin
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla’s Sneaky Rolling Stops

[Bill Dube via EV]

Michael -

    How, exactly, would Mark be able to provide "factual data" on this 
incident?  If you think about it, how would _anyone_ be able to, since 
the device that could record the incident data was off-line at the time 
it happened and this was the root cause of the incident? Mark speculated 
that it was quite possible that other similar "glitches" have caused 
other similar unrecorded incidents.


    I have known Mark for more than 20 years and have found him utterly 
truthful and reliable. If he says it happened, I completely believe it 
happened.


    Also, I can envision how this could easily happen and how it would 
completely escape the notice of Tesla. On commercial airplanes, they 
have two (2) separate flight computers, using two different brand CPUs, 
using two completely "firewalled" separate teams of code developers for 
their flight computers. The two systems continuously monitor each other 
for faults and warn the pilots when they see any divergence in flight 
control between the computers. There are two _other_ separate systems 
recording flight data as well. They do this because peoples lives depend 
on these systems working perfectly and continuously. There is no similar 
multiple redundancy in Tesla. _YOU_ are the redundancy that they are 
depending on to take over if there is a computer glitch.


    "The world is an imperfect place. Screws fall out." (Quote from 
"The Breakfast Club.")


    Bill D.

On 2/5/2022 11:08 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Mark, Can you show me where this anecdotal information might be gathered as
factual data?  I have become very wary of information that is not
attributed to some source that I can trust. No offence intended.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 4:38 PM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:


Tesla should just drop the whole self driving thing and just focus on a
great electric car.  My Tesla Y was the only EV I could find with towing
capacity for my H20 ski boat and an excellent nationwide charging network.
The problem with self driving is when the computer gets a glitch, it drops
out and the vehicle goes straight, usually into a tree on a curvy road
(happened to my friend last year and previous year to his wife in a
Tesla3). Of course when the computer drops out it doesn’t record the crash
as a self driving error.  How convenient for Tesla.  The actual crash rate
is much higher than recorded.
Best regards
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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[EVDL] OT: US traffic controls (was: tesla's sneaky rolling stops)

[Bill Dube via EV]

    Tesla should treat a stop sign according to the law. However, the 
computer is acting logically according to the actual situation. I would 
suspect that there logically should be a yield sign instead of the stop 
sign.


In most civilized parts of the world, stop signs are _extremely_ scarce. 
In the US, they are the default at most intersections. I can only recall 
seeing half a dozen stop signs in all of Auckland. No doubt there are 
more, but they are used sparely because they are needed extremely rarely.


I suspect this is to  generate revenue in the form of traffic tickets in 
the US. Only in the US do the ticket revenues go directly to the police 
departments. In most civilized countries, they go to the national 
coffers, which removes (most) of the obvious conflict of interest.


Obviously, someone has to yield the right of way to someone else at an 
intersection. In sensible countries, they use "yield" signs. Only in the 
few intersections that have visibility difficulties, or some unusual 
hazard do they place the very rare stop sign. They often don't have any 
signs at all, where you apply whoever standard yield law/procedure. It 
all works wonderfully with few traffic accidents. Traffic flows much 
more smoothly and efficiently with yield signs instead of stop signs.


    When folks in the US do a rolling stop (often called a Hollywood 
stop,) they are doing the logical thing. They have slowed sufficiency to 
ensure that they can proceed without violating the right-of-way.






Bill D.

On 2/2/2022 11:39 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Ok, my opinion.  I think one should look at the intent of the law 
requiring a full stop at a stop sign. From what I learned, that is to 
allow getting a full view of the intersection before proceeding. If 
you don't come to a full stop, you might not notice a pedestrian 
starting to cross. Or, if the cross traffic doesn't stop, you might 
miss an oncoming vehicle.


So, for human drivers, a full stop makes sense.

In the future, good sensors and self-driving software should be able 
to determine if a full stop is necessary. The software can look in all 
directions at once and doesn't need nearly as much time as a human to 
make a decision. If the view of cross traffic is blocked, it will need 
to be ready to stop, but may not need to completely stop once at the 
intersection. I can imagine that full stops and, perhaps, even stop 
signs themselves will eventually become relics.


In the mean time, I think Tesla's should obey the law. Once Musk can 
prove his vehicles don't have to fully stop, maybe he can lobby to get 
laws changed.


Peri




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[EVDL] Regen toll (was: Tesla Y actual wall outlet efficiency)

[Bill Dube via EV]

With an AC drive, there is no excuse not to use regen. It is built in, 
and essentially free. At least equipment wise.


Regen has significant energy losses, however, so you should use it 
sparingly, or at least knowledgeably.


Typical EV drivetrain losses are in the ~15% range, give or take. 
Whatever the drivetrain losses, they at least double when you 
regeneratively brake.


You first pay that ~15% toll on the way out of the battery, through the 
controller, through the motor, and to the pavement. Then you pay the 
toll once more pulling that same energy from the pavement, through the 
motor, through the controller, and pushing it back into the battery. You 
basically pay twice the toll, or perhaps 30%, to recover the energy with 
regen. You don't get all the energy back.


If you drive a bit more conservatively, you can avoid expending that 
energy extra energy in the first place, and then recovering that energy, 
and paying the regen toll. Not quite as much fun, but you can perhaps 
actually get where you plan to go. :-)


    Bill D.

On 1/4/2022 2:12 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Mon Jan 03 15:02:46 PST 2022 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

On 3 Jan 2022 at 12:09, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
For decades EV hobbyists dismissed regen as not worth the extra effort to
implement.  "Just add another battery or two," they said.

That's a pragmatic answer when you've chosen a series DC motor, which is
really tough to use for regen.  But in fact, under the right circumstances,
regen is like leveling out the hills.

Yup, and it REALLY depends on where you are driving.
95% of my trips are here on Whidbey Island.  Yes there are hills - but they are 
gentle, and there is only one where I gain a little speed.
So the only use for Regen is when I stop - and almost all of my driving is on a 
highway with only about 3 traffic lights per trip, which aren't always stops.

Regen wouldn't give back very much in my situation.


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y actual wall outlet efficiency

[Bill Dube via EV]

On 12/31/2021 4:17 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Well, that’s not how efficiency is measured but I think I know what you mean. 
The Wh per mile is mostly a function of weight. Aero starts to weigh in around 
55mph. On conversions a good estimate is weight divided by 10. My car weighs 
3100 lbs with me in it and I got around 300wh/m. Tesla beat this by making the 
battery a larger percentage of total weight by using aluminum. No one else 
comes close. I think the Bolt is close to the rule of thumb.



    At the wall is probably the best way to measure efficiency. It is 
what the consumer cares about most. That is what I would care about, for 
sure.


    Weight doesn't make nearly the difference in efficiency as does the 
frontal area.


    Often, the weight of a car is sometimes reflected in the frontal 
area, however, but there is not much correlation.


    Rolling resistance is roughly proportional to speed (and the 
weight,) while aerodynamic drag is proportional to the frontal area and 
the _cube_ of speed. That cube term adds up very quickly. Aero drag 
starts to dominate at about 30 mph. Nothing else matters much over ~60 mph.


    Bill D.

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Re: [EVDL] What type of magic is this nut and where to get a tool for it?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I think this one is beyond Harbor Freight. This is a _highly_ unusual 
fastener.


If you can't find the proper socket, you may have to resort to 
fabricating one, perhaps by milling or grinding five grooves to engage 
the five nubs on the fasteners, inside a thick-walled socket of the 
appropriate size. (An excellent place to buy such a "donor" socket would 
indeed be Harbor Freight.)


Alternatively, you can make careful measurements, CAD up a mating tool, 
3D print it in plastic to check the fit and to make refinements in the 
CAD model, and then have it 3D printed in metal. There are tons of fast 
turn-around 3D printing houses on-line. Www.ShapeWays.com for example.


I have no clue as to why this high-security nut was selected. The design 
seems somewhat amateurish in that the interconnects are so massive. 
Typically, in OEM battery packs, the interconnects are shaped to bend or 
flex somewhat so that cell expansion, vibration, or slight movement 
won't cause damage to the seals on the cell terminals. Corrosion is 
quite evident, so electrolyte has likely leaked by the damaged seals. :-(


Bill D.


On 11/17/2021 10:59 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I bet Harbor Freight will have it. If you can't take a sample take a couple of 
photos at different angles. Lawrence Rhodes
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[EVDL] 40kw vs 40kWhr

[Bill Dube via EV]

Unlike an ICE, a more powerful electric drivetrain uses _less_ energy 
under normal driving than a marginal HP drivetrain.


A large inverter and motor run more efficiently at low power because 
they have larger conductors and less internal resistance than a smaller 
inverter and motor. Driven side by side, a very powerful EV will be far 
more energy efficient (Watts per mile) than a marginally powered EV. 
Quite the opposite of what you might expect.


A gasoline engine is most efficient at near full throttle, and least 
efficient at small throttle settings. Basically, when you throttle a 
spark-ignition engine, you do so by restricting its intake, which 
reduces the combustion pressure (and density). You are essentially 
throttling the engine by reducing its efficiency. Thus, a gasoline 
engine car would prefer to have its engine run at near full throttle, 
which means that from an efficiency viewpoint, you want a tiny engine 
that is just barely enough to propel it down the road.


I might add, that a diesel engine does not throttle by restricting its 
intake. Its fuel efficiency is _not_ effected by engine size or by the 
throttle setting. (Engine RPM is what dictates Diesel efficiency.) This 
is why you rarely see diesel hybrids. They don't add much efficiency, 
other than to capture the braking energy (regen.)  On the highway, they 
get the same mileage as non-hybrids. (This is also why manual 
transmissions in diesel trucks have so may gears.)


Bill D.


On 11/5/2021 9:00 AM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Don't knock vehicles with limited power, there is absolutely no
objective *need* for a family car with 400+HP.
My 1994 US Electricar (S10 factory conversion) has a 50kW induction
motor and a 250A limited inverter.
Original design had a 312V lead acid pack, but due to the inverter's
design with 450V components and specified 405V operational voltage
(90% derated) it is possible to use a full Leaf pack in the truck
which reduced weight from close to 5,000 to somewhere closer to 4,000
lbs.
The ~360V (under load) and 250A current limit give the truck a
theoretical peak power of 90kW but I hardly ever see the inverter
capable of delivering more than 200A so the actual peak is closer to
70kW and that makes this truck very peppy and fun to drive, much
better than when the Lead Acid pack was sagging below 280V and the
truck was both heavier and only wielding 50kW.
I have driven many low powered vehicles, including an original Trabant
during a visit to former East Germany, so I know how to handle a
vehicle that has just enough power to do what it is designed to do -
move people around at freeway speeds. My first car had an air cooled 2
cylinder 800cc engine into a continuous variable transmission. Not
fast or quick but very easy to drive ;-)
Cor.


On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 12:33 PM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:

On 4 Nov 2021 at 11:52, David Nelson via EV wrote:


I don't know where to source a 40kWh (note it is not kw, but kWh,
kilowatt-hour) battery for a Leaf

Yup.  KW measures the battery's ability to deliver power, not its energy
storage capacity.

But who knows?  Maybe some Leaf owners really DO want 40kW batteries.

After accounting for efficiency, a 40kW battery would give a Leaf roughly
the power of a 1961 VW Beetle, in a car that weighs over twice as much - and
doesn't have a 4-speed transmission for torque multiplication.

Thirty or 40 years ago, 40kW was a typical small-car conversion - 96 volts
with a 400 amp controller.  A 2500lb car with a forklift motor bolted to the
stock 4- or 5-speed transmission could usually manage a top speed of around
65mph, if you were prepared to give it the better part of a minute and
didn't have too much of a headwind.

In a 3400lb car with a single-gear transaxle, things might be a bit more
dicey.  But maybe the OP is up to the challenge. :-)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  I said I didn't know.

 -- Mark Twain
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[EVDL] Level 1 charger...Labor costs??? (was: Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Seriously?
You _seriously_ want to _hire_ someone to plug your Level 1 "trickle" 
charger (that comes with every EV) into a regular wall socket?

Seriously?

Bill D.

On 10/24/2021 1:22 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I know nothing about Level 1 charger costs, so did a quick Google, found this:

https://blog.carvana.com/2021/07/how-much-does-it-cost-to-install-an-ev-charger/

“ For example, the Level 1 charger costs between $300 to $600 before labor, 
which stands at about $1,000 to $1,700.”

Is this wrong?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On Oct 23, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

She lost me on $600 level 1 charger(EVSE) Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Launches Entry Model 3 with Newer LFP Battery Tech in the U.S. - TeslaNorth.com

[Bill Dube via EV]

If you consider the entire pack design, LFP can approach the specific 
energy of NMC, NCA and other metal oxide batteries. Can't _quite_ get to 
the same W-hrs/kg on a pack basis, but may be close. The LFP cells also 
tend to have lower internal resistance, so the heat generated during 
discharge and fast charge can be less.


The naked NCA cells have unbeatable specific energy. However, it 
requires quite a bit of extra weight to mitigate potential thermal 
runaway in NCA (etc) cells, and a huge engineering effort.


LFP cells don't have these severe thermal runaway problems. Thermal 
management can be far less stringent, and thus the pack can be made 
simpler and lighter. Even so, LFP won't hold quite as much energy per kg 
on a pack level, at least at this point of development. Might be 
significantly cheaper, however.


Bill D.


On 10/22/2021 10:57 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi folks
Looks like Elon Musk is trying to spin LiFePo4 batteries that we used in our 
conversions as the latest technology.  I wonder if they’re large format cells 
too :-).
https://teslanorth.com/2021/08/26/tesla-launches-entry-model-3-with-newer-lfp-battery-tech-in-the-u-s/
Best regards
Mark in Roanoke Va

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Radio Noise Issue

[Bill Dube via EV]

There is zero hope for an AM radio to function correctly in a home built 
EV.


You are inside a metal box next to a 100 kW unshielded broadband AM 
radio transmitter.


Many of the early OEM EV's simply didn't have an AM radio at all, for 
just this issue.


Bill D.

On 10/15/2021 1:03 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Try connecting the radio to a separate battery isolated from the vehicle


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, October 13, 2021, 6:48 PM, nathan christiansn via EV 
 wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I have a Geo Metro that I converted electric and the radio has never been
able to pick up more than one station because of all the noise the dc-dc
converter outputs. I have been able to verify that the noise is being
picked up through the 12 volt input of the radio and not through the
antenna. I have tried putting a large line-voltage EMI filter on the output
of the dc-dc converter and it did not do anything. I also tried putting a
large capacitor on the output and experienced similar results.

Is there anyone out there who has had a similar issue and found a solution?
Any ideas would be appreciated.

Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] Radio Noise Issue

[Bill Dube via EV]

AM radio will pick up EMI via the antenna. A portable AM radio won't 
work in a homebuilt EV. No hope.


A small portable AM radio is a very useful sensor for crude EMI leak 
detection. Tune to a vacant portion on the dial and move the radio 
around the device to find were EMI is leaking out. Works great as a 
preliminary check before you take it to the EMI chamber for a formal EMI 
leakage test.


Bill D.

On 10/14/2021 3:04 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Could you power the radio from its own battery?  Charge it separately with
its own charger.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  ("head" or "face," as in "tete-a-tete": head to head or face to
  face).  Hence "polytetien," a person of two or more faces.

-- Martin Pitt
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Re: [EVDL] Radio Noise Issue

[Bill Dube via EV]

Radio, particularly AM, is a lost cause on home conversions. The EMI and 
RFI is just to difficult for the home converter to deal with. Takes 
serious and time consuming work on shielding and filtering of the EV 
components and wiring to get it down to a level where you can listen to 
an ordinary AM radio.
Even the early OEM EV's did not do well on the AM stations. I suspect 
that the AM radios in EV's are somewhat special.


My best suggestion to this issue is to listen to a podcast on your phone.

Bill D.

On 10/14/2021 12:48 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I have a Geo Metro that I converted electric and the radio has never been
able to pick up more than one station because of all the noise the dc-dc
converter outputs. I have been able to verify that the noise is being
picked up through the 12 volt input of the radio and not through the
antenna. I have tried putting a large line-voltage EMI filter on the output
of the dc-dc converter and it did not do anything. I also tried putting a
large capacitor on the output and experienced similar results.

Is there anyone out there who has had a similar issue and found a solution?
Any ideas would be appreciated.

Nathan
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[EVDL] New land speed record by Vesco and ReVolt

[Bill Dube via EV]

Very fast electric streamliner by Vesco racing and powered by ReVolt 
Systems:


/Here's How The Revolt Systems Streamliner Set The Electric Land Speed 
Record At 
Bonneville/https://jalopnik.com/heres-how-the-revolt-systems-streamliner-set-the-electr-1847798014


I had a bit of a laugh when the article said that the overall electric 
motorcycle speed record was 112 mph. :-)


Bill D.

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Re: [EVDL] H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)

[Bill Dube via EV]

This is probably what will occur.
Like filling your propane bottle. The attendant will check to see if it 
is in date, and reject it if it has expired.
I can't see the dealership turning down the opportunity to "service" 
your fuel cell car.


Bill D.

On 9/11/2021 10:48 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Fri Sep 10 07:52:03 PDT 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
Is it mandatory, though?  It seems to be nothing more than a label inside
the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles
with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the
hydrogen tanks are replaced."

Since you can only refuel at special stations with specially trained attendants 
- seems like it would be mandatory as the attendant would probably get fired if 
he refilled it.



--

Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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[EVDL] Danger to public? (was: H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)

[Bill Dube via EV]

"Fatigue" is the answer to your question.

When you repeatedly stress materials, minute flaws grow and result in 
failures.  Filling and emptying the pressure vessel results in a fatigue 
cycle, and will eventually result in failure of a highly stressed part. 
You can bend a coat hanger in half and it is fine, but you can't bend it 
repeatedly, as it will break.


In the case of a pressure vessel, a failure can easily result in 
catastrophe. Thus, periodic inspection is required, and retirement of 
cylinders is required if large flaws are detected.


All sorts of "life safety" items are subjected to mandatory periodic 
inspection and sometimes replacement at "end of predicted life" due to 
fatigue. For example, on airplanes, you can only fly so many hours 
before you must replace the wing spars (main beams in the wings) on 
specific airplanes. The cost will take your breath away, (millions per 
airplane) but it is often less expensive than buying a new airplane.


The aim is to replace the "worn" part before it fails, instead of having 
it simply fail. Having the wing part ways with an airplane in flight is 
the definition of a "life safety" type event. Same as having a pressure 
vessel burst, especially one at high pressure full of H2.


As they say "Safety regulations are written in blood".

Bill D.

On 9/11/2021 10:01 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

What happens to Mirai tanks that have been refueled 300K to 500K
without a tank change?  Do they pose a danger to the general driving
public?

Today, as an aside, I drove my Model 3 90 miles at 65 mph with the
equivalent of 3 adults in the car, AC running, and averaged over 5
miles per kwh.  I was impressed since a Bolt I had owned averaged
about 3.9 miles/kwh under similar conditions.

On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:48 PM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:

On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote:


This replacement cost is another "nail in the coffin" of H2 fuel cell
vehicles. The cost of a battery replacement is less than the cost of
_mandatory_ H2 cylinder replacement.

Is it mandatory, though?  It seems to be nothing more than a label inside
the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles
with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the
hydrogen tanks are replaced."

It seems as if everything is chipped and networked in cars these days.
You'd think that Toyota could have the body computer query the tanks, "Hey,
you guys expired yet?" before starting up, and refuse to go if they're past
their use-by dates.  At least it could flip on a yellow warning light or
"service hydrogen tanks soon" message on the cabin display.  If the manual
mentions that as a possible situation, I missed it.

Do FCVs require smog inspection?  Would expired H2 tanks keep them from
being certified?  I don't have a clue.

Without any consequences, the owner could just ignore the warning label, and
carry on with filling and driving the car.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating
  a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit
  me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he
  epitomized the history of the human race.

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Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)

[Bill Dube via EV]

There is no doubt that the H2 systems, including the tank, are 
thoroughly leak checked. H2 is straightforward to detect in minute 
quantities.


However, the world is an imperfect place. Screws fall out. Leaks occur.

I am surprised that they omit advising against parking indoors in the 
owner's manual.


Bill D.

On 9/10/2021 5:04 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
I suspect it's far worse than that. H2 will pool against the ceiling 
but it will probably leak through pretty quickly and fill up the joist 
cavity, and then the ceiling of the floor above, and so on.


Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really 
curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 09-Sep-21 20:00:22
Subject: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)


Indeed, H2 is very buoyant in air and rises extremely quickly.

However, this means that it collects and concentrates at the high 
points of the ceiling in an enclosed space. Typically, the garage 
door opener is also in that space, as well as light fixtures, etc. 
The garage door opener has relays with contacts. Older fluorescent 
lights also have contacts in the small starter. There are all sorts 
of ignition sources at or near the ceiling where the H2 will 
concentrate.


Thus, garaging a H2 fuel cell vehicle is against the regulations, for 
a multitude of reasons.


Having worked with liquid hydrogen in a hydrogen safe building for 
many years, I am acutely aware of the hazards it presents and the 
measures one must take to reduce the risk of those very real hazards.


Bill D.


3.)  With regard to garaging, I was reading a while back that the
_hydrogen is so light that it would float and disperse_ readily
generating the idea a HFCEV could be garaged.  If I find the article I
will post it but the comments you found in a passage about getting it
out and into a well-ventilated space makes me want to find an
authoritative source.  It may be the difference between a slow leak
and something faster.


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[EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Indeed, H2 is very buoyant in air and rises extremely quickly.

However, this means that it collects and concentrates at the high points 
of the ceiling in an enclosed space. Typically, the garage door opener 
is also in that space, as well as light fixtures, etc. The garage door 
opener has relays with contacts. Older fluorescent lights also have 
contacts in the small starter. There are all sorts of ignition sources 
at or near the ceiling where the H2 will concentrate.


Thus, garaging a H2 fuel cell vehicle is against the regulations, for a 
multitude of reasons.


Having worked with liquid hydrogen in a hydrogen safe building for many 
years, I am acutely aware of the hazards it presents and the measures 
one must take to reduce the risk of those very real hazards.


Bill D.


3.)  With regard to garaging, I was reading a while back that the
_hydrogen is so light that it would float and disperse_  readily
generating the idea a HFCEV could be garaged.  If I find the article I
will post it but the comments you found in a passage about getting it
out and into a well-ventilated space makes me want to find an
authoritative source.  It may be the difference between a slow leak
and something faster.


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[EVDL] H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Typical high pressure cylinders must be re-certified every 5 years. 
There are specific carbon fiber reinforced cylinders that can fall under 
DOT regulation (SP-16320) which allows a longer span between 
re-certification.


The typical re-certification procedure requires a physical inspection, 
inside and out, and a "hydro" pressure test. They fill the tank 
completely with water and raise the pressure to twice (or 3/2, or 5/3 
depending on the design) the rated pressure of the cylinder. (The water 
doesn't compress and doesn't store much energy when you raise the 
pressure, so a burst tank makes a dull "thud" instead of a catastrophic 
bang.)


I suspect the super-ultra-high pressure carbon fiber tanks will be 
damaged by the over-pressure of the re-certification test, so they 
probably can't be hydro tested and therefore must be discarded. :-( This 
is just a guess, however. Perhaps such an extremely high pressure test 
is prohibitively expensive?


This replacement cost is another "nail in the coffin" of H2 fuel cell 
vehicles. The cost of a battery replacement is less than the cost of 
_mandatory_ H2 cylinder replacement. Surprise surprise, another hidden 
cost of fuel cell vehicle ownership.


Bill D.

On 9/10/2021 5:52 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

Hello Dave,

You raise some interesting questions.  Out of curiosity, I did a
search on Mirai Hydrogen Tank Replacement Cost and came up with a
couple of things:

1)  In this link:
https://insideevs.com/news/326312/2016-toyota-mirai-do-not-refuel-after-2029/

There is a picture from a 2016 article on the Mirai.  In the picture
is a back of the door plate that reads:

Do Not Refuel After:
2029/11

The interesting thing is that it is time based and not based on the
number of refuelings.  I would think that bringing a tank repeatedly
from around a couple of PSI to 5 tons per square inch would stress the
composition and create microcracks and stresses.  But who keeps track
of how many times a vehicle is refueled (or recharged)?

14 years times 15K miles per year is roughly 200K miles.  At a 400
mile range, that's 500 refuelings.  Most of the car reviewers were
finding lower ranges.

If you can't refuel after 14 years of driving this car, then the tanks
need to be replaced

2.)  For replacement cost ( "Fits Mirai 2021-2021"), I found this ad at:

https://parts.lagrangetoyota.com/a/Toyota__Mirai/97938565__9232000/FUEL-TANK--TUBE/28B420-7701.html#77A30
The number 1 & 2 tanks are each listed at a discounted: $9,313.87.
The number 3 tank is listed at a discounted : $5.665.95

So basically, it would cost $24K at a discounted cost ($30K retail) in
parts to replace those 3 hydrogen tanks.
As a comparison, a Model 3's pack replacement cost is $16K just for the pack:
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/38915/it-costs-nearly-16000-to-replace-a-tesla-model-3-battery-pack
with the life of a pack between 300K and 500K miles.

3.)  With regard to garaging, I was reading a while back that the
hydrogen is so light that it would float and disperse readily
generating the idea a HFCEV could be garaged.  If I find the article I
will post it but the comments you found in a passage about getting it
out and into a well-ventilated space makes me want to find an
authoritative source.  It may be the difference between a slow leak
and something faster.

After 4 to 5 hours on the road, letting an EV recharge while we visit
the restrooms and order a meal takes away from the speed of refueling
a HFCEV.

Peter


On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 10:42 AM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:

Thanks Bill.  That's the information I was looking for.

I was curious about whether this was mentioned in the owner manuals of FCVs.
so out of curiosity I downloaded the Mirai manual from the web

https://www.startmycar.com/toyota/mirai/info/manuals/2021

It's 560 pages!  I thought at first that it must be multi-lingual, but nope,
that's all English text.  I confess, I didn't read it all, just skimmed
interesting topics.

First of all, I was specifically looking for information or advice about
ventilating the garage where the owner is going to park the Mirai.  I didn't
find any.  The only mention of "vent" in the index refers to the seat
ventilators.  "Garage" is about Homelink programming.  "Parking" guides us
to parking assist, parking brake, parking lights, and "parking support
brake," which is a low speed collision avoidance system.

The manual has some information about the car's safety systems.  Apparently
it has a hydrogen leakage detector that posts a warning on the info screen.

The car has 3 bulky cylindrical H2 tanks.  The vehicle schematic diagram
showing them made me think of EV conversion, when you have to figure out
where to fit in a dozen or two lead batteries, with  little choice about
their shape.

One H2 tank is in the center between the seats, where a driveshaft would be
in an FE/RD car.  (I thought we were done with that waste of interior
space.)  One appears to be transversely mounted under 

Re: [EVDL] OT: fuel cell mining truck

[Bill Dube via EV]

A high pressure hydrogen tank that holds more then 3000 cu ft 
(uncompressed gas volume) _/*cannot*/_ be stored indoors without very 
special ventilation equipment, etc. A fuel cell passenger car with a 
range of 300 miles holds just shy of 2000 cu ft, so a truck would be 
over that limit and could not be parked indoors in any normal facility.

See table H-1 and H-2:
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy15osti/60948.pdf

Even under 3000 cu ft, the requirements are still insanely strict for 
indoor H2 storage. For example, you can't have any ordinary electrical 
equipment or wiring anywhere in that space. _Everything_ electrical has 
to be "hydrogen safe". This means it has to be explosion proof. No 
ordinary garage meets this requirement. Explosion proof light fixtures, 
explosion proof switches, and explosion proof electrical outlets. Thus, 
no fuel cell cars are allowed to park inside any ordinary garage or 
parking garage.


Having worked for many years with hydrogen in both liquid and gaseous 
forms, it is obvious that H2 fuel cell vehicles are a non-starter from a 
safety standpoint. H2 is not at all like gasoline. Especially in 
enclosed spaces. It burns with an invisible flame in sunlight. It 
detonates in the widest concentration range imaginable, 18% to 59% in 
air. (Not just flames, an explosion.) The flammability limits are 4% to 
94%.


Imagine a car wreck with invisible flames. Think about that for a 
moment. You can walk right into a fire with no warning whatsoever.


Realize that a fuel cell car wreck might very well detonate. This is a 
very real possibility, especially in an underpass or a tunnel or a 
parking garage.


Bill D.

On 9/9/2021 5:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 7 Sep 2021 at 2:56, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:


Since you are not allowed to park a fuel cell car indoors why on earth
would you use one in a mine

Can you please provide a reference for this?

I'm no FCV fan nor am I an H2 evangelist, but I haven't been able to find
any documentation for such a law anywhere on the web.  I can't even find a
reference to ventilation requirements, although that would certainly make
sense.

Most of what I find that discusses hydrogen vehicle safety matters is fairly
old - twelve years ago and earlier - and seems somewhat speculative.

On 8 Sep 2021 at 10:21, paul dove via EV wrote:


Why? If you design it to run for 8 hours then at the end of the work
day charge overnight.

I know nothing about mines, but what if the mine runs 24 hours a day?

I have a vague recollection of reading years ago that there exist(ed?) cable
powered electric mining trucks.  I might be remembering wrong.  Regrettably
the web seems to be so saturated with discussion of this one that I haven't
been able to find a reference to much else.  Maybe someone else can.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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[EVDL] Ground versus Neutral (was: Will this gizmo let my EV conversion talk to a J-1772)

[Bill Dube via EV]

This is, unfortunately, a "common" misconception. (So to speak :-) )

Yes indeed, the ground and neutral conductors are at the same potential. 
The two conductors serve very different purposes, however.


If you connect the neutral conductor of an appliance to the ground 
conductor by mistake, the appliance will seem to function normally, (if 
it is not on a GFI protected circuit.) If sometime later, the ground 
wire becomes disconnected somewhere in your house, maybe at the ground 
rod or the electrical panel, then very bad things will happen. The 
appliance will stop working, even though it is "on", because the current 
has found a dead end at the ground circuit break. The metal parts of 
EVERY electrical device and appliance in your house will go to 120 
volts, and become live. Everything will seem normal, but it isn't. 
Someone is very likely to be injured or killed. Your house is waiting 
for you, personally, to complete the circuit.


If someone were to touch, say, the toaster with one hand and the water 
faucet with the other, they would get a shock, perhaps lethal. Even if 
the toaster is off, but simply plugged in. If someone was in the bath, 
and touched a light fixture, or a switch plate, they would get a shock.


The ground conductor can have _no_ current flowing through it under 
normal circumstances. It is there for safety purposes only.


If you are thinking "What are the odds that this will happen?". I was an 
electrician in a former life and this happens all the time. The ground 
rod conductor gets loose or damaged by gardening equipment, and the 
bonding wire to the plumbing is left dangling because it was 
disconnected during a DIY remodel. Then, all it takes is a cheapo surge 
suppressor to fail, (and connect the hot to the ground) and your entire 
house becomes live, waiting for _you_ to complete the circuit to a pipe, 
or a masonry floor, etc.




Bill D.

On 9/5/2021 8:55 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I thought you could mix ground with neutral? Not sure I know what I am talking 
about. Two of my 3 AVCON EVSE use neutral. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Regen Efficiency vs Coasting

[Bill Dube via EV]

The round trip efficiency of the motor-inverter-battery-inverter-motor 
is perhaps 50%.
The 15% number comes from the increase in range from having a car with 
regen, versus one not having regen. In stop and go city driving, that 
number can go much higher, thus the 25% increase in range.

Thus, regen efficiency is on the order of 50%, not 25% or 15%.

Of course, you are always better off driving more efficiently and 
coasting to a stop, but that is not always possible, or even legal. :-)


Bill D.

On 8/24/2021 10:12 PM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:



On 8/24/21 2:56 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
In an EV, much of the braking in stop/go energy can be recovered by 
regenerative braking, thus the ’shed mass’ argument is severely 
undermined.  The same applies to hilly terrain.



I can't let this statement go unremarked as it propagates a common 
misconception.  Regen captures some of the power lost from braking or 
going downhill, but the efficiency is probably 15-25% of the total 
energy used to accelerate or climb the hill initially.  So it 
re-captures "much" more than an ICE vehicle does using mechanical 
brakes that drop the energy as heat, but it is not a magic energy 
recovery system. (Unless you have your vehicle towed to the top of a 
hill, all of the energy re-gen captures came out of your vehicle on 
the way up the hill or acceleration curve.)


Coasting without power is MUCH more efficient than stopping with regen 
and then re-accelerating in a BEV (or an ICE for that matter).



Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Melted LEAF charge port

[Bill Dube via EV]

It is very likely to be a high-resistance crimp on either the vehicle 
side receptacle or the charger plug. It is more likely to be the charger 
plug.
Alternatively, the pins on the vehicle may have been damaged by an 
abused charge connector on a public charger. (It happens...)
Both have likely been heat damaged, and will have to both be replaced, 
unfortunately. :-(


This happens with some regularity. The port gets quite a workout. The 
charger connectors get some serious abuse.


Bill D.

On 8/19/2021 3:38 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

Hey all,
Went out to find my J1772 EVSE melted to my charge port.
Nothing on my Nissanleaf.com, nor YouTube about installing $600 replacement 
harness and charge port.
 Given that Nissan wants 1200 shop time, I’m curious as to see if that’s a 
legit 8-10 hour process. And given the possibility it might happen 8 years from 
now, I’d like to do it myself next time.
Ideas?

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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Bill Dube via EV]

The elephant in the room is that fuel cells very quickly "wear out" and 
need to be replaced at great expense. They wear out more quickly than 
the batteries they replace, which is ironic.


_If_ you can figure out how to make H2 economically (and with less 
pollution per mile than electricity) you still need to solve the problem 
of how to make fuel cells last, and be more economic. As it is now, a 
vehicle fuel cell lasts about a year before it becomes "poisoned" by the 
air that it must inhale to combine with the H2 to make electricity.


What is ironic is that carbon monoxide (CO) in the inhaled air is a 
serious issue for fuel cell poisoning. Even in tiny amounts.
Even if they figure out how to make the membrane less damaged by CO, 
other contaminants in the inhaled air, and in the H2 fuel, chemically 
link onto the fuel cell membranes or coat them and the fuel cell 
degrades over time. This is the nature of system that must be fueled by 
external gases. Contaminants are inevitable. It is very expensive to 
replace or rebuild the fuel cell. They are, in essence, a big catalytic 
converter with the same expensive and exotic metals involved.


A fuel cell is just a _very_ complicated battery that has an external 
electrolyte source, after all. If you remove the fuel cell when it dies, 
and replace it with a less complicated and less expensive battery, you 
will be back to a nice BEV car. You can charge this from any electrical 
outlet at home and not have to go to a fueling station. You can charge 
it from a solar panel, or a wind mill.


A big advantage of a BEV is that you can park it inside if you like. You 
can't park a fuel cell vehicle in an ordinary garage or a parking 
garage. High pressure H2 is a no go for such spaces. The H2 can possibly 
leak and then it rises and hugs the ceiling in enclosed places. You 
garage door opener can touch off a hydrogen explosion if this happens. 
Thus, no indoor parking allowed with a fuel cell vehicle.


Bill D.


On 8/14/2021 2:24 AM, Mark Abramowitz wrote:

You’ve completely ignored what I said - did you even read it?

As far as the economics, not only will it not take a miracle to make “green” 
hydrogen more economical than fossil hydrogen, but at least one company is 
building production plants that they say will make it competitive in cost, and 
then improve it further. The technology is improving quickly, and as the cost 
of renewables drop, the production costs also drop, as that is the biggest 
driver of costs.

As far as your comment of being ahead with electricity being stored in a 
battery, I think your looking at it the wrong way in two (if not more) 
important ways (and I won’t even get into battery production and recycling 
issues that don’t get taken into account).  First, a battery doesn’t meet all 
duty cycle needs, which is why for some uses you need hydrogen even if you 
prefer batteries. The alternative is fossil fuel combustion in an IC engine. 
That’s why most of see fuels cell electrics as complementary to BEVs, not 
either/or. Secondly, and maybe more to your point, electricity, like hydrogen, 
gets produced in many ways. The GREET model, which is generally accepted as the 
gold standard for calculating GHG comparisons, If I’m remembering correctly, 
shows both BEVs and FCEVs reducing GHGs as compared to fossil combustion ICEs, 
no matter the input energy.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On Aug 13, 2021, at 5:14 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

Here is an article published today on "Clean Hydrogen". (Not so clean, 
according to the article. surprise surprise )
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/12/clean-fuel-blue-hydrogen-coal-study

 From _all_ I've read, even in Scientific American, you are way ahead simply 
using plain old electricity instead of hydrogen, if you wish to curtail climate 
change. Electricity for running a vehicle is much more economic, and is far 
more ecological than hydrogen. At least for the foreseeable future.

All but the tiniest fraction of hydrogen produced these days comes from fossil 
fuel. This is because it is by far the most economic way to produce hydrogen. 
Even so, it is _still_ far more expensive to run a car with the cheapest H2 
than run it directly with electricity stored in batteries.

Perhaps someone, somewhere, will invent some miraculous possess that will turn 
the tables completely, but that simply hasn't happened yet.

The US government is going to throw another $8bn down this black hole. If $8bn 
isn't enough to buy that miracle cure, then perhaps it will be time to give H2 
the last rites and finally move on.

Bill D.




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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Bill Dube via EV]

Here is an article published today on "Clean Hydrogen". (Not so clean, 
according to the article. surprise surprise )
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/12/clean-fuel-blue-hydrogen-coal-study 



From _all_ I've read, even in Scientific American, you are way ahead 
simply using plain old electricity instead of hydrogen, if you wish to 
curtail climate change. Electricity for running a vehicle is much more 
economic, and is far more ecological than hydrogen. At least for the 
foreseeable future.


All but the tiniest fraction of hydrogen produced these days comes from 
fossil fuel. This is because it is by far the most economic way to 
produce hydrogen. Even so, it is _still_ far more expensive to run a car 
with the cheapest H2 than run it directly with electricity stored in 
batteries.


Perhaps someone, somewhere, will invent some miraculous possess that 
will turn the tables completely, but that simply hasn't happened yet.


The US government is going to throw another $8bn down this black hole. 
If $8bn isn't enough to buy that miracle cure, then perhaps it will be 
time to give H2 the last rites and finally move on.


Bill D.

On 8/13/2021 7:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the data.

You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, yes, 
you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce electricity to 
run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not fossil-derived, and the 
entire industry is moving towards 100% “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most 
believing that “green” hydrogen will be everywhere very soon.

I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the use 
of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG impacts, 
the most direct measure is a CI score.

Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while I 
get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they 
*are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as low 
as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil.

So who is putting out more GHGs?

This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most 
would view the data.

- Mark
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Re: [EVDL] Electric mower - small question

[Bill Dube via EV]

The dynamic braking on DC lawnmowers is accomplished by the "shorting" 
the motor with a length of wire, believe it or not.


When you turn it off, the power switch on the handle disconnects the 
battery from the motor and connects a "resistor" to the motor which is 
simply a bundled hank of perhaps ten feet of 20 AWG wire. Seems to be 
quite effective, but not very efficient.


Bill D.


On 7/28/2021 7:28 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 25 Jul 2021 at 13:12, Seth Rothenberg via EV wrote:


what would it take to replace the cord + rectifier with some number of these
40V packs which are available at 6Ah?

If memory serves, Lee Hart did something similar with small Gates Cyclon
lead cells many years ago.  I hope he'll chime in with the details.

Years ago, I converted a 120vac B mower to DC, replacing the 120v PM motor
with a 36v one.  I didn't try to use the handle switch for DC - I can't
imagine that it would have fared well - but instead used it to operate a
small golf car type contactor. The downside of that arrangement was that it
sacrificed the dynamic blade braking that the mower had originally, and thus
some safety.

I powered mine from a 38v 10ah LiFePO4 battery.  Instead of putting the
battery on the mower, I carried it in a backpack, which made the mower
easier to maneuver.

One thing that surprised me was how much current the motor used just
spinning the blade in free air, not even cutting.  It was 6-8 amps, if I'm
not mistaken.  Seems like a lot, doesn't it?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Vandalism charge for charging EV?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I would suspect that the Tesla owned by the hotel manager, (or someone 
in a position of power.)


They get a premium parking slot for their car, with charging, plus a 
guard! Then write it off to the hotel and advertise it as a "perk" to 
customers.


I would send a complaint to Hilton headquarters.

Bill D.


On 5/31/2021 8:29 AM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi folks
I’m at 1 Beach drive Myrtle Beach listed on EV Hotels/PlugShare as an EV 
destination hotel.  They have a large parking garage servicing several hotels 
with only two charging stations , one J1772 and one Tesla.  After paying $1100 
for 3 nights I was told by the guard if I parked next to the other Tesla (that 
has been charged for two days) and moved the cable, I would be charged with 
Vandalism!   Have you ever heard of that ?  He also said he would NOT contact 
either car owner in the hotel and ask them to move their cars that were fully 
charged.  He said to go to a public pay for charging station.  Next time I’ll 
just stay in a cheaper non EV rated hotel and charge with the general riff raff.
Stay charged
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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[EVDL] Cube vs square (was: The state of EV's 1890 to 1922m - cube)

[Bill Dube via EV]

The drag _force_ on your vehicle goes up as the square of velocity. F is 
proportional to V x V
    You go twice the speed, the drag force on your car increases by a 
factor of four.


The _power_ (horsepower) requirement due to drag goes up as the cube of 
velocity. HP is proportional to V x V x V

    You go twice as fast, the HP required goes up by a factor of eight.

The _energy_ required for a fixed distance goes up as the square of 
velocity.
    You go twice as fast you use four times the energy. -> At 40 mph 
you have a range of 80 miles, but at 80 mph your range is only 40 miles.


Bill D.


On 5/17/2021 8:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

CUBE per Speed:

In my case, (Major east coast pipeline outage), the concern
was with energy used on a trip proportional to cube of speed.
I was trying to get my wife to slow down from 70 to 55
to make most of the 32 mile daily round trip for chemo
on battery in her (30 mile) plugin-Prius and not use -any- gas.
(70 to 55 would save HALF the energy (due to drag) for the highway portion).
Bob

On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 3:50 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

Although drag Force goes up by square of velocity, but then power equals force
times velocity, so the power to move in the presence of drag goes up as the
Cube of velocity.

On Sun, May 16, 2021  Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

square of velocity. But, yes, not linear.
-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922


Bingo, I re-read my email and when I said it goes up significantly
above 45, I omitted the fact (that you allude to) is that it goes up
as the CUBE of velocity., A huge factor.  Bob



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Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen

[Bill Dube via EV]

Ah. Direct injection H2. (Essentially a Diesel engine running hydrogen.) 
Thus, the low octane (MON) doesn't matter.

Most definitely not a converted vehicle.

100 of these vehicles produced in total. This beast got only 16.9 MPG on 
gas, 4.7 MPG on H2.


On 5/9/2021 3:07 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Well, yes - why would you want an internal combustion engine running on 
hydrogen?

I don’t know the answer, but at one time BMW thought it was a good idea. I 
drove the result of their work - a bi-fueled series 8, and loved driving it (it 
was *not* a disappointment), but why?

Sure, reduced emissions compared to the gas alternative, but a fuel cell can 
perform so much better with zero emissions.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On May 8, 2021, at 5:42 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

Gasoline engines are designed to run best on gasoline. They can barely be 
converted to run on H2.

In a nutshell, H2 has an extremely low motor octane number (MON) of about 60, 
and the compression must be reduced so much that the engine makes very little 
power. The low charge density is a further detriment to the engine HP.

Yes, you can make an ICE run on H2, but it will be difficult and the result 
will be disappointing.

It begs the question; Why would you do this? Just run the engine on methane 
(MON 120) and skip all the fuel conversion effort and energy losses.

Better yet, skip the electrolysis step and the H2 transport, and run an 
electric car directly on the electricity delivered right to your house already!

Bill D.


2. There are billions of ICEs already in use. They can be converted to
run on H2. And they will be able to claim they are "green" because
pollution at the vehicle is considerably reduced (it moves to where the
H2 is manufactured).


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Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen

[Bill Dube via EV]

Gasoline engines are designed to run best on gasoline. They can barely 
be converted to run on H2.


In a nutshell, H2 has an extremely low motor octane number (MON) of 
about 60, and the compression must be reduced so much that the engine 
makes very little power. The low charge density is a further detriment 
to the engine HP.


Yes, you can make an ICE run on H2, but it will be difficult and the 
result will be disappointing.


It begs the question; Why would you do this? Just run the engine on 
methane (MON 120) and skip all the fuel conversion effort and energy losses.


Better yet, skip the electrolysis step and the H2 transport, and run an 
electric car directly on the electricity delivered right to your house 
already!


Bill D.



2. There are billions of ICEs already in use. They can be converted to
run on H2. And they will be able to claim they are "green" because
pollution at the vehicle is considerably reduced (it moves to where the
H2 is manufactured).



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Re: [EVDL] Fixing my over volt charger by putting a resistor across the 12v output

[Bill Dube via EV]

A simple resistor won't limit the output voltage when the current tapers 
off. (When the load resistance becomes larger.) It will still go to 16+ 
volts and ruin your battery.


A simple solution might be to place two, perhaps three, large diodes 
(rectifiers) in series with the output.


You can easily find a diodes (or perhaps a rectifier bridge that can 
wired to make two diodes, just use the + and - terminals,) that will 
handle the 10 amp output. Ordinary diodes will drop ~0.7 volts each.


Bill D.

On 4/27/2021 10:12 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

This might be a crude fix but some sort of variable resistor that can tolerate 
10 amps at 16.5v might work. There is even a place to easily put the resistor 
for easy access. The only pot on the control board doesn't seem to change 
anything. Maybe using Ohm's Law the right value within a range might be found. 
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] I found some Solectria motor controllers

[Bill Dube via EV]

    Apache Reclamation. Awesome and bizarre surplus dealer. Worth a 
visit just to look around.


    You never know what you will find at Apache Reclamation. Seriously. 
I suspect _they_ don't even know what some of the stuff they have is or 
does.


    Bill D.

On 4/19/2021 2:21 PM, Ricky Suiter via EV wrote:

If it's of any use to anyone I went to an old electronics salvage place this 
weekend and while walking around came across two Solectria motor speed 
controllers sitting on a shelf. They were model UMOC440TF, 364v 70kW. I have no 
idea if they work or not nor any idea what they'd want for them.
They were at Apache Reclamaimation and Surplus in Phoenix, AZ.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
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Re: [EVDL] The numbers are in. Replace your EV 12v battery with lithium 1/3 the size of OEM.

[Bill Dube via EV]

On a Leaf, the 12 volt battery never experiences the high starting 
current that a typical starting battery does in an ICE.
It is used to supply longer steadier draws. Thus, I would opt for a 
li-ion battery with similar A-hr capacity as the lead acid it is replacing.


Bill D.

On 4/19/2021 12:37 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

This Canadian has extreme use needs. This video was made for motorcycles but I think 
transfers well for EV's. He demonstrates flooded lead, gel, sealed and lithium 12v 
starting batteries what we need in our EVs to run the 12v system. Surprisingly the little 
lithium does not perform as well as I thought it should and there is a reason. Testing 
against the 9 ah motorcycle batteries with 500CCA the lithium had very similar CCA. I was 
puzzled. Then the reveal. The "9" ah lithium was in reality a 3ah battery. So 
they based their ratings like light bulbs. Going for lumen. In this case what was shown  
is you only need a third the capacity in lithium to equal a lead storage battery. When I 
size the Leaf 12v battery I am going to look for a battery a third the size in 
capacity...maybe even less.  Lawrence Rhodes   https://youtu.be/3ywopGAXP-I


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Re: [EVDL] EV1

[Bill Dube via EV]

The sad fact is that no one actually "owned" an EV1 (with very rare 
exceptions.) No doubt, many would still be on the road today if GM had 
allowed private ownership.


I had the privilege of driving one when they were first introduced at 
the EVS-14, and it was a very nice car.


I was told a bit of the backstory of Who Killed the Electric Car by 
Chris Paine. Much of the movie ended up on the cutting room floor 
because they could not find multiple sources for the information. Sony 
Pictures, which distributed the film, required that everything presented 
in the film be backed up by multiple sources, (like a controversial news 
story) and double fact-checked. They were very concerned about the 
potential liability.


It would love to see a "director's cut" of the movie released today.

Bill D.

On 4/14/2021 6:55 AM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I just finished watching the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car" was
wondering if anyone on EVDL has owned a General Motors EV1 and would be
willing to share his or her experiences with it.

Thanks,

Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: large drone ?

[Bill Dube via EV]

My hypothetical proposal was for EV drones (both tethered and perhaps 
non-tethered) delivering packages from a truck (which could be an EV) 
driven by a person. This would be safer as the driver could remain in 
the truck, and not worry about slippery terrain, strained muscles, 
viscous dogs, or irate package recipients.


The driver would directly supervise the delivery of each package, and 
decide if the specific delivery was within the capability of the drone. 
The drone would only take the package from the truck to the doorstep, 
instead of the driver doing so.


FAR more efficient and safe than long distance drone delivery from a 
central fixed location. (Likely fewer regulatory headaches as well.) No 
jobs eliminated. Just the worst part of the job being performed by a 
machine. The driver just makes sure it all goes smoothly and safely from 
the comfort of the cab of the truck (unless the driver decides it is 
safer/better to hand deliver the package.)


Bill D.


On 4/10/2021 6:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

This thread is mostly off topic.  However, there are a couple of critical
points that everyone posting so far seems to be missing.

I want Amazon, UPS, Fedex, and ESPECIALLY USPS to convert their delivery
fleets to EVs.

But I want HUMANS driving them.  I want HUMANS delivering my packages to my
door.  And I want those humans to be treated decently and humanely in their
jobs.  For goodness sake let's at least give them a reasonable number of
bathroom breaks.

Humans can make judgements.  Machines can only do what they're programmed to
do.

Machines also can't buy stuff to keep a consumer economy moving forward.
The more people you put out of work by turning their jobs over to machines,
the fewer there are to spend money.  When does it stop?  When all the Amazon
vans are automated?  When UPS and Fedex are too?  When all the OTR trucks
are automated?  When your job is automated?

As the old song says, the fact that you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

But by all means, put those human drivers in ELECTRIC delivery vehicles.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
  My father taught me that a job worth doing is worth doing right.
  It's advice that has served me well. It's mind-boggling the
  number of jobs not worth doing and the incalculable hours I've
  saved by not doing them.

  -- Jimmy Johnson
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] large drone ?

[Bill Dube via EV]

In my opinion, the "delivery drones" have the wrong paradigm. The 
delivery drone really doesn't need to travel long distances or carry 
more than one package.


The real issue is the final 50-100 feet of delivery. The UPS driver has 
to park the truck, get the package out of the back of the truck, and 
carry it to the front door, then walk back to the truck, start it and go 
to the next address. The "drone" should do only this "walking" portion 
of the mission instead of the driver. The truck just travels by the 
house, and the drone flies out of the top of the truck with the package, 
and delivers it to the front door, then returns to the still moving truck.


The truck may not need to even stop, but only slow down, or not. The 
drone might actually be tethered for large/heavy packages and very short 
distances.


The drone does what it does best; short hops. It returns to the truck 
quickly for the next package and a recharge.


The driver can ascertain if there is any problem, and intervene quickly 
to correct it. The driver can opt to hand deliver a package that the 
drone may not be able to deliver effectively. Perhaps dense trees, power 
lines, winds, or other issues.


Bill D.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla keyless keyfob fix

[Bill Dube via EV]

 and when you pull over to take a picture of the beautiful 
landscape, you discover you cannot restart your Tesla with your phone, 
because you are out of cell phone coverage. :-(


Surprisingly common occurrence.

Bill D.

On 4/2/2021 10:14 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 1 Apr 2021 at 16:42, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:


The key fob is more reliable than a dead cell phone.

Yup.  And a lot easier to slip into your pocket, considering the ludicrous
size of today's tablets-masquerading-as-mobile-phones.

>From what I've read, you can own and drive Teslas and other EVs without 
using a smartphone, though you might lose some features.  (In some EVs, some

of the features may still be available from the car touchscreens.)

But every now and then I read about some new prototype EV where there are
few or no normal driving controls, with nearly everything controlled from
your smartphone that you slip into a holder on the instrument panel while
driving.  Eh, no thanks.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
  The only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world
  of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.

-- Richard Nixon, "Real Peace"(1983)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

[Bill Dube via EV]

Merchants are not allowed to add a surcharge for using a credit card. 
The credit card folks won't allow it. They want you to spread the cost 
over all your customers so it isn't so obvious to consumers how much the 
service actually costs.


It is a gray area whether you can apply a cash, or "no credit card" 
discount. (Basically a work around for not charging for the credit card 
use.)


Bill D.


On 3/30/2021 12:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Jukka, nice to see posts from you, after a long time !

I don't understand why the credit card fees are a problem. Why can't 
they be built into the cost to the customer, like everywhere else that 
uses credit cards ?


Here, in the US, I believe merchants get charged roughly 2% for credit 
card processing. (It varies a bit by risk, volume, and other factors.) 
That isn't so much to add onto the end-user cost.


Peri


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Re: [EVDL] Bottom Balancing Batteries

[Bill Dube via EV]

Gordon,

We use a "CellPro" PowerLab 8 to initially balance, and cycle our 
LiFePO4 packs in groups of eight cells (or less.)

http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Products/Cellpro-PowerLab-8-EC5-version/Cellpro-PowerLab-8_3299

About $250 and you will realize that you have been sleeping under a 
rock. Amazing device. 1300 watt


Get the USB interface module ($22)  so you can easily collect and plot 
the data while you are testing and cycling the cells. Get the CPBP9P-10 
battery pigtail so you can easily wire up the individual cell taps. 
(Tough to wiring it up to the cells without the proper connector, so for 
$3, get a pigtail.)


We use a deep cycle 12 volt battery with the CellPro to provide the 
input charging energy, (plus a modest 12 volt charger,) and to also 
provide a reservoir for the CellPro to dump the energy from the Li-Ion 
cells under test.


 Charging, balancing, and using a pack with used/mixed cells 

    You have what you can afford, so sometimes you build a pack out of 
cells that aren't well matched. First, put them on the CellPro and cycle 
them in groups to find any defective or low capacity cells. Cycle all 
the cells, and then cycle them once again to gauge what the self 
discharge is for each cell. Toss any that have large self discharge as 
that is a sign that they have internal damage, and will prove impossible 
to keep in balance in the car.


    Get all the cells fully charged. Then assemble the ones that proved 
good on the CellPro into a pack.


 "Foil covered cells" 

    These cells with a thin metal, plastic covered, outside are "pouch" 
type cells and need to be constrained before they are used. They 
basically are a hermit crab without its shell. _You_ need to provide the 
shell. If you try to use them without a proper case, they will have low 
performance, and a very short life. They require a case that presses 
them into a giant sandwich at a very specific pressure range. It can be 
done, but it is tricky stuff to build the proper case.


    Bill D.

On 3/14/2021 6:47 PM, Gordon Wong via EV wrote:

Sorry if this message is not in the flow - I am a digest-only subscriber.

I have been helping John through this via direct email for maybe a couple
of weeks, and it was Willie who said it most accurately.

John's pack has probably never been properly balanced and an fire early on
due to improper mounting of the cells didn't help.  Instead of the usual
thick plastic case on these prismatic LFP cells there was (by this
particular manufacturer) a relatively thin transparent plastic film around
the metal case (apparently an electrode) of the cells according to his
description.  The cells must have been mounted in a sheet metal battery box.

Very likely the replacements for the burnt cells were not matched in
voltage when installed.  And I think the BMS was only configured via CAN to
the charger to prevent overcharging.  As far as I know the BMS was *not*
configured to shut down the motor inverter either via CAN or using the
(active low) Discharge Enable line on the Orion BMS.

It seemed logical to suggest a one-time bottom balance as this mix of old,
new and perhaps damaged cells might never top balance within a reasonable
timeframe and I didn't want to hear of the car being test-driven with an
unbalanced pack.  I suggested 2.8v as a reasonably safe bottom but the
manufacturer spec sheet apparently stated 2.5v.

My idea was to expedite the balancing process by starting at a low SOC and
let the BMS stop the charge when the lower capacity cells came up to 3.6
something or whatever the BMS was set to.

Then short drives would rout out rather quickly any cells that were still
significantly lower in capacity.  And I emphasized before going much
further to enable that very important *other* function of the BMS, the one
which should at least alert the driver if not outright stop the motor
inverter.  I believe that this oversight reverse-charged some of the
cells.

For individual cell charging I suggested  a commonly available  bench power
supply and John did take delivery of a (5A or 10A?) unit but apparently it
failed before very long.

- Gordon Wong

PS John is a member of the Vancouver EV Association as am I.  He is some 80
miles to the east.  I haven't seen Roger Stockton for a couple of years.
He's running a Leaf now and I think he is still part of Delta-Q.  All are
welcome to come visit VEVA via Zoom (Tuesdays 7-9 Pacific and Saturdays
10-12) - register at veva.ca.
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Re: [EVDL] Bottom balancing batteries

[Bill Dube via EV]

On 3/14/2021 5:18 AM, Willie via EV wrote:


  His primary point was that bottom balanced voltage would drop off so 
perspicaciously as the battery neared full discharge that there was 
little risk of ignoring a few low cells as might be the case with top 
balancing.


By "solving" the issue of torturing cells during full discharge, you 
ignore another, far more serious problem of torturing cells during charge.


    Cells in a pack, _never_ have equal capacity. What happens to the 
one or two, grossly overly full, over-voltage cells, when you recharge 
this "bottom balanced" pack?  Typically, charging occurs on an 
unattended car, perhaps while you are asleep in your bedroom over the 
garage.


    This also assumes that the "bottom balanced" cells will stay in 
this "bottom balanced" condition, which has been shown countless times 
to be incorrect. Batteries are never perfect in any respect.


    A quote from The Breakfast Club: "Screws fall out. The world is an 
imperfect place."


Bill D.


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Re: [EVDL] Bottom balancing batteries

[Bill Dube via EV]

Hi John,

    Your very nice Orion BMS will balance your batteries in standard 
manner ("top" balancing, so to speak.)  Orion makes an outstanding (and 
a bit pricey) battery management system, with all the bells and whistles 
if you wish to use those features.


    Attempting to perform some sort of manual "bottom" balancing will 
simply confuse the Orion. It will see the "bottom" balanced pack as 
completely unbalanced, and wok diligently to correct the situation. This 
might take the system awhile to correct, perhaps several days. It will, 
eventually, bring the pack into perfect balance. This is what the 
battery companies all recommend, as do the OEMs.


  "Bottom" "balancing" explained  

    The folks that advocate bottom balancing  are trying to get by 
without a BMS at all. It really only "works" for a short while, perhaps 
only a few cycles. The batteries get out of "bottom" balance inevitably.


    Think of a herd of cats. They might go in the same direction and 
same speed for a short time. They will not march in sync because it is 
simply not in their nature.Expecting them to stay in sync is foolish.


    If you drive your car regularly, then you will ruin batteries with 
some regularity, and are taking a very big chance on a battery pack 
fire. I personally know several "anti-BMS" folks that drive their EVs 
regularly, and ruin several batteries every year. They attribute their 
ruined batteries to flawed manufacturing. A few anti-BMS folks have had 
spectacular fires, often more than one spectacular fire. Some have lost 
a garage.


    If you ignore self-discharge (or actively dis-believe in self 
discharge) then bottom balancing sounds enticing. Folks don't understand 
why you really need a BMS. You _want_ to believe that you can get by 
without a BMS, so this is what you convince yourself. It is very much 
like the flat earth folks, or the climate change deniers, or cigarettes 
are not addictive, or any other conspiracy theory that you might name 
that is contrary to the mountain of scientific research that shows 
otherwise.


    Trust the science. Trust that the OEMs would not spend an extra 
penny on a BMS if they did not have to. Believe that you will have a 
fire that could very well burn down your house if you forgo a BMS.


    Bill D.

On 3/13/2021 5:30 PM, John Titman via EV wrote:

Hello all: I am a newby so, bear with me . I have converted my 1965 Ford
Falcon  to an all electric vehicle with an HPEVS AC51  motor with a Curtis
1239e controller,
an Orion2 BMS . I've fitted 48- 271 Ah  3.2 volt batteries and am
experiencing
battery balance problems . I am in the process of bottom balancing the
batteries but, I'm not sure how critical the bottom voltage should be after
discharging. Do they all need to be exactly 2.5 volts ?The battery voltage
keeps jumping up to about 2.51 to 2.54 volts after numerous  discharging.
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[EVDL] Self-discharge realities (was: Volt module details)

[Bill Dube via EV]

What most folks don't realize is that Li-Ion batteries go out of 
balance, (without a BMS,) and subsequently catch on fire, for a lot of 
reasons.


Cell-to-cell differences in self-discharge is the primary culprit. In 
poor quality cells, variations in manufacture "bake in" this 
cell-to-cell difference in self-discharge. You need a BMS to keep a 
series pack of these low-quality cells from getting out of balance, (and 
catching your house on fire,) in even the most ideal circumstances.


In high-quality, matched cell battery packs, differences in 
self-discharge are caused by differences in temperature. Even small 
temperature differences make a HUGE difference in self discharge, which 
will unbalance the pack without a BMS, (and set your house on fire.) It 
typically doubles for every 10 degree Celsius rise in temperature. A 2 
degree temperature rise produces a 15% increase in self-discharge. Thus, 
a tiny temperature difference works to chew away at your pack, causing a 
large imbalance, if not corrected by a BMS, (eventually setting your 
house on fire.) Remember, self-discharge works 24/7 chewing away at the 
pack imbalance. Self-discharge never sleeps.


https://www.designnews.com/electronics/measuring-lithium-ion-cell-self-discharge

There are lots of factors that easy lead to differences in cell 
temperature. The edge cells get heating and cooling from the outside 
environment. The end cells, connected to the fat conductors, have 
well-documented temperature differences from the bulk of the cells in 
the pack. What also causes differences in temperature is the imbalance 
itself. The imbalanced cell gets tortured as it is over-discharged or 
under-discharged relative to its peers. This causes a cascading effect, 
leading to accelerated cell imbalance as the imbalanced cells get hotter 
and hotter relative to their peers.


> Bottom Line <<<

    You need a BMS. There is no question about it. However, when you 
install a new BMS, you (personally) have to see that you have installed 
it correctly and see that it is doing its job. It is a new system on new 
batteries, so you have to check it for "infant mortality". During the 
first few cycles especially, you need to check every cell voltage 
several times and make sure that the BMS is functioning 100%. You should 
_never_ ever leave a new pack charging unattended during this 
"honeymoon" period.


You need to check on the BMS periodically as well, to make certain that 
it is doing its job.


The OEMs have done this exhaustively before they release a design to the 
public. Thus, the BMS in your OEM EV is trouble free. They have a mature 
BMS design and they have a huge amount of "stick time" to find any bugs.


Going without a BMS on a Li-Ion pack under regular use pretty much 
guarantees you will get a fire. You don't want a fire, trust me.


Bill D.

PS

When I saw cell-imbalance compared to not changing your oil, I cringed. 
Not changing your oil won't set your car on fire, or burn your house down.



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Re: [EVDL] Cheap spot welder.

[Bill Dube via EV]

A big part of successful spot welding is ensuring the contact pressure 
is repeatable. A great deal of effort is put into this because it really 
matters. This system has zero provision for this important aspect.


The welds will either properly weld, explode, or not stick at all, 
depending on the contact pressure. It isn't simply touching the surface 
using random force and turning on the current. When you are building a 
pack, you make _hundreds_ of welds, and every single one of them has to 
work.


 Kind of like a child's "Easy Bake Oven" version of a spot welder, sad 
to say.


 I guess you get what you pay for

Bill D.

On 10/25/2020 4:28 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Seems this is a good low cost solution for spot welding nickel strip.  Lawrence Rhodes  
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Mini-DIY-Nickel-Strip-Connection-Battery-Batteries-Spot-Welder-ax/303603149722?_trkparms=ispr%3D1=item46b0286b9a:g:FbsAAOSw8zJe8Geg=enc%3AAQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkpFtSR0CGv%252Bh98r8Yb9quSzzg1oNfZCv88ecLOF5TtsVT46NvHmklEanCMt9abvL%252FUKWJXpHHwmDf0hgfJLOCo5U1agqOCRkT63DyKrHs0Bbi%252Fn6Q6dOe2wdnlmy9nrq%252BZymx7rtZase557eIRzEJcJtRcuh1GO1dMBBzDyCTWofYI8bLsw%252FgbPzPA%252BZwknUqWP4vuAiTiexa8l80brhJKPJc8bkF1419DHXVhLzvaLir4xLj%252FQfhERl2SJtpyNYcpedHnmqRQAOiVjQXxLz8AHmbmARsCic%252BH4oeP%252BPqutCqYxwH6CgKpMSNcQ27u%252BiIBpB7ZLGasC0qEGIkJZbHoktAIIqFo728bNebr3YUE%252FEjmz75Ke4%252FIZqmucC9l0L9CEx4kZxA%252F7vMjWZx8B08zgcsYpSf5z460dQRdg21TlA4WARkpHFt%252FloClzxxedlN5sO7tayWVQC2SGZgSFXgJ4%252B%252BNVKsYEtB9bVEneNZI9%252BYsJvQ57hkp%252FQXnp0AzbwXao0fa31ao7fHL0aur4%252BbQEApPLa%252B%252BQPbk7cApRJ0Sm5x20orXhItiaKXi2u5%252Fig30hVq5F6MX1YLY6eSgu1YtbfZeQY2p%252BKTPUImz72znDv0tp519%252B%252F%252BWuPjYnMI%252Bb0PnL6oJStaGxzWPXtBBHSPKvTsMLHzpRQmPlDEhC%252B73bqfVsBAjFovW9S6WmZ2yNbDbRyyR9EbJXeXEJKvZ7fxr9GZL5syuu5vRSyrTwzs%252Bu6zYpA1vWTR1RYeso8A2ZUejhVcDT4%252BdgjEcSVKQf%252BBsw%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A30360314972269740a27a9a441a7981d929f24e55a46%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524


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Re: [EVDL] Miles consumed for altitude

[Bill Dube via EV]

    In Colorado, you care about the loss of range when you change 
altitude because you may not have enough range to; A) get to your 
destination at the higher elevation, or, B) make the return trip from 
some location at lower elevation.


    For example, if you were to drive you brand new Leaf from 
Evergreen, CO (7220 ft) to Denver International Airport (5434ft), then 
you had better stop for a fast charge at Canopy Parking when you get to 
the airport, even though it _looks_ like you have plenty of charge to 
make the return trip.


    If your car has sufficient battery pack capacity, then indeed, you 
recoup quite a good fraction of the energy lost (or gained) traveling to 
a different elevation. In a mountainous region, you may not be able to 
make the round trip. The 20% "EVDL" number represents the typical energy 
gain from having regen in mixed driving, versus not having regen and 
throwing the braking energy away to your brakes. Based on what I 
experienced driving my Leaf in Colorado, I would guess that you recoup 
most of the range you expend changing altitude. Perhaps 80%, maybe a bit 
more.


 Bill D.

On 10/15/2020 6:01 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 14 Oct 2020 at 6:09, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

Regeneration is only about 20% efficient.


So they say - at least here on the EVDL.  I've read similar 
declarations for
decades. But those statements aren't in accord with the data in the 
link I

provided.

http://evdl.org/pages/evergreen.html

"Range is not significantly affected by mountain driving. Essentially 
the
entire potential energy difference can be recovered by regenerative 
braking

and by coasting when possible.  Nonetheless for optimal range, the
mountainous portion of a long journey should not be at or near the 
journey's

end."

I have a lot of respect for Axel Krause.  So, with all due respect, 
I'd like

to see some documentation for that 20% figure, if you don't mind.


Indeed, regenerative braking only recovers about 20-30% of the energy 
expended (battery-out to battery-in). This is due to the cascaded 
efficiency losses of the battery, controller, motor, drive train, 
tires, and aerodynamics on the way up; and then the same sequence of 
losses again on the way down. Though each can be 90% efficient, they 
multiply to nickel-and-dime you do death. If each is 90% efficient 
0.9^12 = 28%.


But that's the worst-case. You're rarely going to drive up a mountain 
so steep and long that you *double* your energy consumption going up, 
and expend *zero* energy coasting back down. The more likely case is 
that your horizontal drive is far longer than your vertical climb. So 
over the length of your trip, you only expend a *little* more energy 
going up than going sideways.


For example, you might spends 10 + 1 = 11 KWH going up; and then 10 - 
25%(1) = 9.75 KWH coming back down. You only got back 25% of your 
hill-climbing power; but the total trip used 11+9.75 = 20.75 KWH, 
which is barely more than the 20 KWH that the trip would have taken on 
level ground -- the loss of range is hardly noticeable.


Lee Hart



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Re: [EVDL] Spot weldingu

[Bill Dube via EV]

The typical welded pack has two spot welds on each end of the tab. This 
is the minimum you can get with a resistance welder.
I typically put four welds on each end of each tab. I do this in two 
welding operations well separated in time. This lets the heat dissipate 
from the first weld. This is both for current carrying ability, and for 
redundancy. (The weld do not always works perfectly, so four spots is 
better than two spots.)


40 amps is toward the large end, so I suggest you put four spot welds on 
each end of each tab.


Bill D.

On 10/1/2020 11:02 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  The question is more how many amps each pair of welds will produce. I am 
welding to the interconnects between buddy pairs so I am not too worried about 
ruining the cells but in how many welds to carry 40 amps and how thick and wide 
my nickel strips need to be. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Spot welding questions.

[Bill Dube via EV]

The thickness of the tab changes the amperage setting. Thicker equals 
higher amperage.


Start out a very low amperage, and increase it until you get an 
acceptable weld. Never start out at high amperage. Good way to ruin 
electrodes and make a mess. (Ask me how I know.)


The negative end of the cell requires different amperage than the 
positive end. (Actually, you have to set _all_ the weld parameters 
slightly differently for each end of the cell, but amperage varies the 
most of all.)


It takes a few practice cells to get the machine dialed in with the 
correct profile to make strong clean welds. The machine does a complex 
multi-step process when it welds, and you have to adjust each portion of 
that process to make good welds. (If you simply wipe the cells clean 
before you weld, that will change the parameters quite a bit, but it 
will be more consistent than leaving the cells uncleaned.) It can take 
quite a few practice cells at first to get your welder running well on 
the particular cells and tabs.


This multi-step profile (typically) has two current pulses, one to 
"clean" the weld surfaces, and the second to actually perform the weld, 
that are separated by ~50 milli-seconds. You adjust all the times and 
currents. You set the alarm limits on the currents. You can set alarms 
on weld resistance, weld power, weld voltage, yada yada yada. You have 
to set the electrode contact pressure separately for the positive 
electrode and negative electrode, because they don't heat completely 
equally.


Wear safety glasses, because some small piece of crud can make the weld 
go very badly, flinging tiny pieces of molten metal everywhere. Somewhat 
akin to a tiny asteroid hitting.


Bill D.

On 9/30/2020 11:03 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Is amp capacity a function of each spot weld? Of nickle strip thickness? I am 
trying to be safe and functional. I also don't want to croak the 
batteries(A123) Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (hd-pr)> LiveWire Sets Record

[Bill Dube via EV]

There must be at least ten (10) of the identical vehicles manufactured 
for it to be able to set a production record in NEDRA. (NEDRA has the 
least stringent "production" class requirements, by the way. The 
requirements for production land speed records are far more difficult.)


Have there finally been ten identical Lightning motorcycles been 
manufactured? If so, has one of those ten identical motorcycles made a 
NEDRA record attempt?

I think the answers are likely "No" and "No".

    Bill D.

On 9/21/2020 7:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

The Lightning LS-218 will do a 10 second quarter mile. How does Harley claim a 
record?  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Chinese electric/plasma jet engine.

[Bill Dube via EV]

The NOx pollution would be horrendous.

Oxides of nitrogen (NO, NO2, etc.) form when air is heated, like in an 
engine (or in lightning, for example.) NOx is not particularly stable, 
so it later breaks down in sunlight in the presence of other pollutants 
to create ozone (O3). More NOX = more O3. The hotter the air gets, the 
more NOx is produced. A plasma is _way_ hotter than any existing engine. 
Thus, this plasma propulsion system would produce _way_ more NOx than 
any existing engine technology. I'm certain it would also produce a lot 
of O3 as well, since the a plasma is so hot.


Not a good idea at all. Extremely bad news from an air pollution 
perspective.


Bill D.

On 9/1/2020 2:28 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Claims no fossil fuel is needed. Just air and electricity to burn the plasma.  
https://asiatimes.com/2020/05/chinese-researchers-create-prototype-plasma-jet-engine/
  Lawrence Rhodes



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Re: [EVDL] Soldering vs. spot welding

[Bill Dube via EV]

The cell won't last if you solder them. You can' help overheating the 
terminals. This ruins the separators. They are designed to be spot welded.


You really need to use an inverter welder instead of a capacitance 
welder. Should be 4000 amps peak (at least 3000 amps).


Bill D.
On 8/10/2020 6:29 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Connecting the A123 cells I am dividing into buddy pairs seems tenuous. I am 
thinking soldering may damage the batteries and maybe getting a spot welder 
might be smart. I want to use the original case. Gives good separation and 
stability. For a 40 amp 60v pack I need 10 gauge wire. Not sure I want to 
solder any but the end connections and I'm think a hybrid where I solder to a 
metal piece and then spot weld to the pack for safety.  Any suggestions?  
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Bill Dube via EV]

LiFePO4 only has about half the specific energy of metal oxide (like 
cobalt) cells.


Because they are such low impedance (high specific power) you can reduce 
the weight of the cooling system, (or perhaps eliminate it entirely) but 
that in not nearly enough weight to make up the difference in an EV 
application.


LiFePO4 is best when you are more interested in high power, or cycle 
life, or perhaps safety, than in maximum energy content per kg.
Cordless tools, starting, start-stop, hybrids, all are great 
applications. EV's, not so much.


Bill D.



On 7/10/2020 12:26 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 9 Jul 2020 at 14:30, Bill Dube via EV wrote:


They altered their focus away from EV batteries and towards other
markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.

Obviously I'm not in any position to advise them, but I wonder if it might
be time for A123 to review their focus.

I don't know how dependent they are on the US market, but with the US
seemingly headed for both short and long term economic contraction, they
might do well to look toward western Europe and Southeast Asia for growth.
There the market for EVs and their batteries is ramping up quickly.

EVs there are (unfortunately IMO) getting larger, with more battery space.
Something of a range race is heating up, too.

If A123 can solve the energy density problem (I mean in terms of volume, not
mass), I suspect that they could also grab some of the warranty and spares
market.

For example, there are quite a few older 2012-2019 Renault Zoes running
round the EU.  In most countries save Norway the majority have leased
batteries.  Renault's contract says they'll service the batteries if they
fall below 75% capacity. If A123 could supply cells that would yield the
nominal original capacity (22kWh or 42kWh) and be the last service that that
battery needed, Renault's bean counters might take notice.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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  fooled.

 -- Mark Twain
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Bill Dube via EV]

A123 Systems is still making lots of batteries.

There were a number of business decisions that were not optimal in the 
early years. They declared bankruptcy and were bought by a large Chinese 
auto parts conglomerate. They altered their focus away from EV batteries 
and towards other markets that made more sense for LiFePO4 technology.


Bill D.

On 7/9/2020 2:17 PM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 7/8/20 9:09 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

A123 Systems has made high quality LiFePO4 for many years.


Does A123 survive?  My recollection is that their major car customer 
(can't come up with the name) lost a bunch of cars to flooding, then 
went under taking A123 with them?


Set me straight, Bill.  Is the reason they have not been more 
successful that their cost is too high?  Valence has had some good 
products but they seem not cost effective.



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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Bill Dube via EV]

A123 Systems has made high quality LiFePO4 for many years.

They mostly are used in cordless tools, start-stop automotive systems, 
and hybrid cars.


They make LiFePO4 cells for the Formula 1 KERS system that put out >> 
20,000 W/kg. This is over 500 C discharge. They have unparalleled 
specific power.


Bill D.

On 7/9/2020 1:11 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

Where are these mythical cells? They sure aren't from CALB.

Al

On 7/8/2020 8:06 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific 
energy.


What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured 
with some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25 
Celsius from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original 
capacity. They just keep going and going You have to seal the 
case well enough to keep air and water out, and use paste, 
separators, etc. that are also reasonably free of water and air on 
the inside.


Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with 
LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells, 
and to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the 
car that many miles. :-)


200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles. 
Even at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this 
gets you a million miles.


Bill D.


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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Bill Dube via EV]

I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific energy.

What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured with 
some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25 Celsius 
from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original capacity. They just 
keep going and going You have to seal the case well enough to keep 
air and water out, and use paste, separators, etc. that are also 
reasonably free of water and air on the inside.


Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with 
LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells, and 
to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the car 
that many miles. :-)


200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles. Even 
at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this gets 
you a million miles.


Bill D.


On 7/7/2020 7:43 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

While I was looking for other information a couple of days ago, I ran across
something on the web that surprised me.  I didn't follow up at the time and
now I've lost track of where it was, but maybe someone else here knows
something about it.

The post or article I saw claimed that Tesla's supposedly-upcoming much-
discussed "million mile battery" is lithium iron phosphate chemistry.

LiFePO4 was something of an EV holy grail 15-20 years ago.  Valence was
offering their Saphion phosphate-based lithium modules around 2002.  A123
was also an early LiFePO4 booster.  Both claimed long cycle life and
improved safety, and A123s were also known for ferocious specific power.

When the cheap and cheerful Chinese low-power versions from Thundersky,
CALB, and others started to appear in the States, a lot of them went into EV
conversions.  You can find discussions about this in the EVDL archive around
2006-2009.

If memory serves, the main downside to LiFePO4 was specific energy.  It just
wasn't as good as what cobalt and manganese based chemistries offered.

I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem.  This may
have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful Chinese
LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like.  Again dredging up from
memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
around the patent and licensing concerns.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million mile
battery" is a Chinese firm.  That's ... uh ... interesting.

So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation?  Has
its specific energy problem been solved?  What about licensing and patents?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
  A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars.
  It's where the rich use public transportation.

 -- Gustavo Petro
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

[Bill Dube via EV]

On 6/23/2020 1:30 PM, Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
Bill Dube ->  Do you mean the solvent is flammable?  UggThat could 
be a big problem.   Do you know what is used?


Ethylene carbonate is a common li-ion cell electrolyte. Wikipedia 
explains that there are several organic solvents that are commonly used:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrolytes

None of the li-ion cells have water-based electrolyte. This is because 
the cell cannot have water in it anywhere, or air, because that would 
combine with the active lithium compounds and render them somewhat inert.


Bill D.


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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

[Bill Dube via EV]

This would work for lead acid, where the electrolyte is water based, but 
li-ion cells have an organic solvent based electrolyte.


Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 11:40 AM, Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
I had an idea once.   Dump the electrolyte in a fire.   That stops the 
battery reaction and stops the fire.   I'd bet you could make a
heat sensitive relief valve (at the bottom) and as the battery heats 
up, it would dump the electrolyte (which is getting hot anyway and 
would either

pour via gravity or perhaps boil out the relief valve).
It would make a mess...but I bet it would work.



-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it 
will be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will 
leave a ravaged world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall




On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 4:15:34 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:



This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide
(ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even
exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.

What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery
pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.
Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)

Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:
>
> 
https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/

> Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
> Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
> blanket ...
> https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

[Bill Dube via EV]

This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide 
(ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even 
exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.


What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery 
pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.

Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)

Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:


https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
blanket ...
https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I was certain that the Audi 4000 springs were a drop in replacement on 
the Rabbit. I perhaps the springs varied in diameter from year to year, 
or perhaps according to the country. Sorry that the spring mounts on the 
Rabbit needed to be changed. :-(  Not such "good" advice, considering 
the extra work.


The Cabriolet springs are slightly stiffer than stock Rabbit springs, 
but not quite much of a boost as the Audi 4000 springs. The Cabriolet is 
heavier by about 200 lbs, with the added weight of the top and the 
additional sill car supports, and thus needs slightly beefier springs.


You can take a _lot_ of weight off a later model Rabbit by simply 
swapping the bumpers for lighter aftermarket bumpers (or perhaps early 
model bumpers?) The stock bumpers weigh a bunch because they were a US 
retrofit for impact resistance.


I should note, that if you can find a Scirocco parts car, they have rear 
disk brakes, which are an improvement over the drum Rabbit brakes. You 
have to also snag the brake proportioner when you get the rear end 
suspension beam, and fashion a small bracket for the actuator arm to 
grab the body.


Again, very sorry that the Audi springs were not the perfect match for 
the Rabbit. :-(


Bill D.

On 6/17/2020 3:33 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

Great tech advice as usual, Bill.

Contacting a wheel repair place here in Oregon (Eugene area is the 
closest), I find that straightening the three slightly deformed 14x6" 
factory alloy wheels that I intended to use is $150 each. I about 
choked on that price, then I found out what a set of these wheels goes 
for on fleabay. Even bent up,corroded ones in this style are asking 
$90+, and one seller had the gall to ask $650 for five that were all 
bent. Just the center caps are asking $110!


Woody's pricing is in line with what I was told here. Perhaps with the 
"Dube Discount", the cost of shipping would be a wash. I'll give him a 
buzz tomorrow.


BTW Bill, Last time you imparted tech wisdom my direction it was to 
recommend Audi 4000 rear springs to get my ride height back to 
something resembling "normal". It was a struggle, but I located some 
in Germany for the Audi 80, and had them shipped. Now I have to get 
busy and buy some Audi shock absorbers, and fabricate top mount hats 
for them. They don't fit the Rabbit spring perches, larger diameter 
(and closer to those fat tires on the 45mm rims...). Kind of makes me 
sick how many of those Audi 4000's I used to walk past at the wrecking 
yard 20 years ago on my way to the rows of VW's I was parting away at. 
What I wouldn't give for just one of those now-long-crushed 
bloatmobiles today...


Earlier in the week, I took a box of miscellaneous shock and spring 
hardware from several Rabbits that I parted out, and an old set of 
still-useful Rabbit shocks and built a 1-3/4" lift section in the 
lower spring mount. Got the car's tail off the pavement at last, 
although I still have to suffer the mushy, overloaded stock springs. 
The new temporary 195/60-14 tires would have gotten the side walls 
shredded on the first trip to town if I hadn't done something to raise 
the body.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Bill Dube via EV]

Give Woody a call. *1-303-936-0232  *Tell them you are 
an old friend of Bill & Eva and they will get this "sorted" as they say 
in NZ. :-)


    Bill & Eva

> Your choices will probably be wider if you splurge for
> 15" wheels and fit lower profile tires...

David, thanks, I'll look into the Nokian's. 185-65/14 will work 
although I'd prefer them in 60-series tires.


This ~would~ be a whole lot easier if I was willing to bump up a wheel 
size, but there are multiple issues to deal with, clearance issues, 
style issues and worst of all, wheel issues.


VW does not make an OEM 15" wheel with the required 4x100mm bolt 
pattern. Aftermarket wheels seldom run true enough for my taste 
because they are universally lug-centric instead of hub-centric. The 
other problem is that it's kind of a crap shoot as to what the offset 
of aftermarket wheels is going to be. Factory offset for this car is 
38mm. The wheels I put on this week are VW OEM 14" 45mm offset, and 
195-60/14 tires are within 2mm of rubbing on the rear springs, and are 
interfering with the body in the front on locked-steering wheel 
movement. I avoid after market like the plague (oh yeah, that's a 
totally relevant excuse these days!)


I *could* buy aftermarket wheels (assuming I could work out the offset 
problems) and then have hub adapters machined for them. Oh boy, 
another project If I actually needed another project, I'd have 
replacement front wheel hubs machined to accept VW's range of 5-lug 
wheels. The rears would be a bolt-on disc brake rotor swap. I have a 
recycle yard stocked with those type of parts at my disposal.


Yes the Invicta's were noisy. Especially for me because my car has 
autocrross-prep suspension, urethane pivot bushings throughout. They 
were also uncomfortably like driving on ice all year 'round as well. 
May well be that a small tradeoff in energy efficiency will be worth 
the added ride comfort and traction.


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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I would steer away (so to speak) from wheel adapters. They are a kluge 
at best and dangerous at worst.


4x100mm is a _very_ common size. Supposedly, there are 850 different car 
models with 4x100mm wheels:

https://sizemywheels.com/lz-pcd/4-100
  and about half of those have a 38mm offset (ET):
https://sizemywheels.com/lz-pcd/4-100?et=38

    The diameter of the center hole (DIA) is the next selection, but 
this is generally not an issue, _if_ you measure your car hubs and get 
one that size or larger. Looking briefly, it seems most VW's are 57.1mm, 
and there are a lot of models to choose from. Again, you should check 
your vehicle and see what the actual hubs, both front and rear, measure.


    The Scirocco, for example, had 14, 15, 1nd 16 inch rims in a 
4X100mm bolt pattern, 38mm offset, and a 57.1mm hub diameter. The 14 and 
15 inch rims were, however, "replacement" wheels, likely supplied as a 
"deal option".


    BTW, I have bought aftermarket rims for my cars for perhaps 20 
years to mount my snow tires on. For quick change in the driveway when 
the snow hit. No issues ever.


    If you need help with wheels, there is no one better in the world 
than Woody's Wheel Works in Denver. (Notice that I am wearing a Woody's 
hat in my profile.) They don't really sell rims, but they are the 
world's experts on repairing damaged rims, and building custom wire rims 
for cars and motorcycles.

    https://woodyswheelworks.com/

    Bill D.

On 6/17/2020 7:46 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

> Your choices will probably be wider if you splurge for
> 15" wheels and fit lower profile tires...

David, thanks, I'll look into the Nokian's. 185-65/14 will work 
although I'd prefer them in 60-series tires.


This ~would~ be a whole lot easier if I was willing to bump up a wheel 
size, but there are multiple issues to deal with, clearance issues, 
style issues and worst of all, wheel issues.


VW does not make an OEM 15" wheel with the required 4x100mm bolt 
pattern. Aftermarket wheels seldom run true enough for my taste 
because they are universally lug-centric instead of hub-centric. The 
other problem is that it's kind of a crap shoot as to what the offset 
of aftermarket wheels is going to be. Factory offset for this car is 
38mm. The wheels I put on this week are VW OEM 14" 45mm offset, and 
195-60/14 tires are within 2mm of rubbing on the rear springs, and are 
interfering with the body in the front on locked-steering wheel 
movement. I avoid after market like the plague (oh yeah, that's a 
totally relevant excuse these days!)


I *could* buy aftermarket wheels (assuming I could work out the offset 
problems) and then have hub adapters machined for them. Oh boy, 
another project If I actually needed another project, I'd have 
replacement front wheel hubs machined to accept VW's range of 5-lug 
wheels. The rears would be a bolt-on disc brake rotor swap. I have a 
recycle yard stocked with those type of parts at my disposal.


Yes the Invicta's were noisy. Especially for me because my car has 
autocrross-prep suspension, urethane pivot bushings throughout. They 
were also uncomfortably like driving on ice all year 'round as well. 
May well be that a small tradeoff in energy efficiency will be worth 
the added ride comfort and traction.


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Re: [EVDL] 20s A123 battery pack for ebike

[Bill Dube via EV]

Sounds like a heck of a deal. Please keep us informed!

Bill D.

On 6/11/2020 2:42 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Below is my order and a few bucks for buyer protection. This will be an 
experiment and learning experience. Lawrence Rhodes

Order details
Sales order

Sold by zhan-lingj ( 383 ) Order number: ???Processed by PayPal

Estimated delivery Monday, Jun 29, 2020 - Friday, Aug 21,2020

60V/73V 5A Charger for 60V (20S ) LiFePO4 BatteryPack/E-BIKE.AC110V 73V OUTPUT

Item price    USD25.95

Quantity  1

Item number   173860920788

Shipping service    EconomyShipping from outside US

Sales order

Sold by elec-module58 ( 14539 ) Order number: ?Processed by PayPal

Estimated delivery Monday, Jun 29, 2020 - Wednesday, Jul 22,2020

20S 60V 60A Lifepo4 Battery BMS W/Balance WaterproofProtection

Item price    USD36.98

Quantity  1

Item number   113793800015

Shipping service    StandardSpeedPAK from China/Hong Kong/Taiwan

Sales order

Sold by squaretradeus ( 553444 ) Order number:24-05211-07170 Processed by PayPal

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Re: [EVDL] Variac and diode bridge to charge LiFEPO4

[Bill Dube via EV]

We have a huge variac with a bridge diode we call "Mongo charge" that we 
use if we let the magic smoke out of all our on-track chargers.

We _never_ leave it unattended. Ever.

    If you (or we) decided to leave such a primitive charger 
unattended, we would probably use a ~25 Amp, optically isolated,  Solid 
State relay on the AC side of it. We would run the SS relay from a TTL 
line on the BMS. (The SS relays typically have a 3 to 30 VDC optically 
isolated control input that will operate nicely from a logic level 
output on the BMS.)


   Bill D.

On 6/8/2020 2:46 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I think I found an inexpensive 20s 60amp BMS. I am still not sure what charger 
to use. Is it possible  to experiment with different voltages starting with 
71.4 and going to 73vdc using my old standby variac with a diode bridge.  Could 
this be dangerous if set and left unattended? Lawrence Rhodes
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[EVDL] Factual article on Fuel cells (was: (offt) h2 won’t overtake EVs> hampered by science & CO2 lies)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Factual piece on hydrogen cost and fuel cells cars in Scientific American:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lack-of-cheap-clean-hydrogen-slows-fuel-cell-cars/

Bill D.

On 6/5/2020 7:39 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Me, neither. I'm just trying to figure out how they came up with their 
incredulous claim !


<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 04-Jun-20 11:02:12 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] (offt) h2 won’t overtake EVs> hampered by science 
& CO2 lies



I prefer not to source *either* from natural gas.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

 On Jun 4, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:


 I wonder how fuels cells would compare to EVs if you compared 
sourcing hydrogen from natural gas to generating electricity from 
natural gas.  That is, show the loss scenarios like this:


 natural gas well > refine to hydrogen > compress & transport > fuel 
cell > EV drive train
 natural gas well > generate electricity > transmission > battery 
charge & discharge > EV drive train


 It might be that scenario that the Canadian consortium was 
imagining. Still, it seems unlikely that the fuel cell scenario 
would be more efficient, but it would be closer.


 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 Sent: 04-Jun-20 9:34:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] (offt) h2 won’t overtake EVs> hampered by 
science & CO2 lies



 That’s a great point.

 Not taking away from the point:

 - I’m not sure that your numbers are not old.

 - Given the demand for non-household EVSE, people are charging 
using the grid mix no matter what they use at home.


 - as the mix of renewables to fossils on the grid change, most 
will be charging when fossil resources are used in greater 
percentages. This will change both diurnally and seasonally.


 - As BEVs become more popular, I think that percentage of those 
buying energy cleaner than the grid will drop to levels closer to 
the grid mix.


 Again, your point is good, but the overall numbers I don’t think 
are as high as you think. But I have no data on this.



 - Mark





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Re: [EVDL] Battery pack sizing.

[Bill Dube via EV]

I agree.

Any cell voltage over 3.8 volts is a waste, and doesn't do the cells any 
good. The cells don't gain SOC over 3.45 volts.


While LiFePO4 cells will _withstand_ 4.2 volts, you really don't want to 
go above 4.0 volts. Doing this long term or routinely would be detrimental.


Bill D.

On 5/12/2020 2:14 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

With LiFePO4 cells you can charge them to anything over 3.4. Some people use 
3.5, 3.55, 3.6, 3.65. It doesn’t matter the next day they will read 3.38 to 3.4.

Sent from my iPhone


On May 11, 2020, at 7:10 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

It seems to me there is some wiggle room. I have seen 3.2 to 3.4 top voltage 
for A123 batteries.  Official specifications:
Nominal Voltage: 3.3v.
Standard Charge: 3.6A.
Max Charge: 10C.
Max Allowable Charge Voltage: 4.2v Charge voltage is 3.6 volt.
Max Discharge: 30C (Continuous)
Burst Discharge: 60C.
A normal charge on 20 cells would be 72vdc and it could handle up to 84vdc. I 
am looking at this BMS:

  
https://www.ebay.com/itm/20S-72V-60V-25A-35A-45A-60A-LFP-LiFePo4-Li-ion-Lithium-Cells-Protect-BMS-IP65/312688099275?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT=611407917579&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
I also inquired about a charger.  I don't know however if I need one unit per 
string or not. I suspect 5ah would be plenty. 2strings.  According to the specs 
one string has just enough power.  I don't know if the chargers are smart or 
not so much to learn.  Lawrence Rhodes







On Monday, May 11, 2020, 2:08:38 PM PDT, paul dove  wrote:







A 3.7 volt battery charges up to 4.2volts. 20 would be 84 volts fully charged. 
3 to 2.5 volts x 20 is 60 to 50 on low end
so depends on what range you want and the max your system will allow.

An A123 is LiFePO4 and they charge to 3.4 volts. 20 is 68 Volts.




On Monday, May 11, 2020, 3:50:59 PM CDT, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:





I am having trouble deciding weather 20, 21, or 22 batteries are the right 
series string for a 72vdc battery.  for a 3.7 volt battery 20 seems to be 
right.  However I have A123 batteries and nominal is 3.3vdc.  Videos on YouTube 
are inconclusive. Sellers details not complete.  Any advice appreciated. I'd 
like to run 1 or two strings for a small ebike battery.  The controller only 
draws 40amps.  Lawrence Rhodes
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