Re: [EVDL] Charging station density

[Steves via EV]

Montreal has also been rapidly expanding its system - Circuit électrique. Best 
part of it is, in places that it’s normally hard to find parking, there is 
usually an EV charging space open and charging cost is cheaper than the parking 
rate in most areas!

In the US the Tesla stations seen pretty widespread- too bad they didn’t add at 
least one non-Tesla charger at each one. Would have been a nice gesture. 

-Steve


> On May 1, 2018, at 2:57 AM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> For those of you living in rural USA or other hinterland
> where there is no public charger within range of your EV,
> don't be jealous of the coastal areas where you can actually
> find a handful of chargers within reach - because I was shocked
> (pun unintended) to see the density of charging locations in
> for example The Netherlands, where it is impossible to be more
> than a few miles away from several public chargers at all times.
> Just one largish city like Amsterdam is home to 4,045 public
> charging locations - totally amazing.
> I was already suspecting a high density when I noticed that in
> the sleepy suburb where some of my family resides, there were
> several public charging locations put in next to parking stations
> along strip malls and such, as well as noticing a regular office
> building complex getting more and more plug in poles next to more and
> more of the existing parking spaces, as well as seeing them being
> used all the time...
> Here a map of charging locations in The Netherlands, including a link
> to locations elsewhere in Europe:
> https://nederlandelektrisch.nl/opladen/waar-kan-ik-laden-in-nederland
> Cor.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Minivan (Ohio EV tax reduction)

[Steves via EV]

We have 1999 odyssey along with a Bolt and Volt. The odyssey is the work truck- 
sees just a few thousand miles a year. At the moment only the drivers seat is 
in as I used it to haul 16’ boards for my deck (hard to do with a pickup). The 
‘bed’ happens to be the height of the Lowe’s lumber cart so I just slide them 
in. 4x8 sheets fit in flat with back closed if I move the drivers seat forward. 
12’ boards fit with back closed too. As I recall, i have put my elec trak 
inside it also with back closed. 

-Steve

> On Apr 4, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> I agree, using a pickup truck for hauling around supplies and tools
>> doesn't make sense in many cases. Exposed to the weather, theft, and
>> higher to lift things in and out.
>> 
>> I have a 20 year old minivan which I use for hauling. I can get 10'
>> lumber in it and close the back. 16' is fine except on the freeway.
>> Garbage, tools, everything else, usually is easy to get in and out.
> 
> I used to drive minivans, too. Great for hauling stuff that didn't fit in my 
> EVs. I've had a 1960 Corvair van a 1972 Chevy, a 1987 and 1994 Dodge 
> Caravans, and finally a 2001 Toyota Sienna.
> 
> The Sienna was the last straw. By that time, minivans (like pickups) had 
> turned into people-movers; not thing-movers. I couldn't get a 4x8' sheet of 
> plywood, or my garden tractor, or my bicycles inside in any reasonable way 
> (all the previous ones did). I got rid of it after just one year, and got a 
> VW Eurovan. That *could* haul a lot of stuff, while being relatively small 
> and easy to maneuver. But it was still bigger and heavier than all the 
> previous vans. Reliability and service was also a problem.
> 
> Now, I have a 2010 Chevy Colorado pickup for hauling. Not a fancy new 
> people-hauler; but a real pickup truck, and the smallest I could find any 
> more. 30 mpg, full length bed, no extended cab, no power windows, no power 
> seats, no NAV, no fancy radio; just a basic work truck. It's perfect for when 
> I need to tow or haul stuff. I can reach the center of the bed standing 
> beside it. There's a tonneau cover to keep stuff dry. But when it wears out, 
> there is *nothing* on the US market today that can replace it.
> 
> Lee Hart
> -- 
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Riding mowers

[Steves via EV]

Elec-trac?

-Steve

> On Mar 25, 2020, at 12:37 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> I've been using battery push mowers for a couple of years with a diesel 
> Kubota for use when I can't keep up using a push mower.  So, I've been 
> shopping for a riding mower to avoid some diesel use.  Not finding anything 
> that looks real cost effective.  Near the top of my list is a Cub Cadet CC30e 
> from Tractor Supply.  Rather alarmingly, it seems to carry quite a premium 
> compared to the similar CC30 gasoline.  $2.8k vs $1.6k.  The CC30e seems to 
> have a pretty modest battery, 56v with 30ah. So that battery shouldn't be 
> very expensive.
> 
> So, has anyone else been riding mower shopping and found something that looks 
> cost effective?
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Re: [EVDL] OT: motor/generator

[Steves via EV]

The generator mounted on the shaft is only about that long. Some models did 
have a vibration damper on top of the generator and used a timing case cover 
with a bulge. I’m guessing that would give another inch or two of room, but one 
would have to find one of those covers and modify the front forks to 
accommodate the extra length. 

Here’s the generator:

http://www.bmwclassicmotorcycles.com/parts/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/BMW-R50-to-R69S-Generator.png

I think it’s less than 5” diameter but there is about 5” available. 

-Steve

> On May 9, 2020, at 10:59 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> 
> Only 2" long? That doesn't sound right.
> 
>> On 5/9/2020 6:18 PM, steve sawtelle via EV wrote:
>>  Hi all,
>> 
>> This is a bit of-topic, but I can't think of a better place to ask this.
>> 
>> Another group I subscribe to is devoted to BMW motorcycles from the 1960's 
>> (slash2s). For the most part we are getting 'long in tooth', and one member 
>> lamented that, although he could still ride, he had trouble kick-starting 
>> the bike due to knee problems. A lot of ideas were generated; one that came 
>> to me was that the engines used in these motorcycles (or close to them) were 
>> used in BMW cars of the late 50's and early 60's. They had a motor-generator 
>> mounted directly to the crank which was used to start the car and then 
>> charge the battery once it was running. Now these motor-generators were 
>> pretty big - maybe 12" or so in diameter, which would be too big to adapt to 
>> a motorcycle. But I was thinking, we have made huge strides in motor design 
>> in the past 50 years, so maybe a motor-generator could be designed to fit in 
>> place of the generator on these bikes. the space is about 5" diameter by 2" 
>> long. On my motorcycle, I measured less than 10 ft-lbs torque to push 
>> through TDC, and I hav
> e
>>  the hardest engine to kick start in the series (R69S). This seems pretty 
>> low, but these engines, when well tuned, could be started by pushing the 
>> kickstarter through by hand.
>> 
>> So, as a thought exercise, do you think a motor-generator could be designed 
>> to start these engines yet fit within the physical constraints?
>> 
>> -SteveS
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] OT: motor/generator

[Steves via EV]

Thanks Lee!

I’ve learned a bit about motors messing with ElecTracs, but I don’t think I 
even know enough to be dangerous. 

Googling around I ran across pancake (axial flow) motors and i see some that 
are close to having the torque in the size needed. But they seem to be very 
specialized. It would be a big, expensive effort. I was mostly wondering if it 
was possible. Perhaps another problem is that, as a motor it needs to be 
designed for low speed and high torque, but as a generator, it would need to 
run up to many thousand RPM. 

-Steve

> On May 10, 2020, at 4:53 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> steve sawtelle via EV wrote:
>> So, as a thought exercise, do you think a motor-generator could be
>> designed to start these engines yet fit within the physical
>> constraints?
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> It's possible; the question is whether it would be practical (buildable; 
> affordable). It would take a pretty special high-tech motor.
> 
> A normal ICE starter is a series DC motor. Such motors can be built with a 
> very high power-to-weight ratio; but then the efficiency is low. The low 
> efficiency means the current is very high, and they overheat quickly. The 
> brushes are solid copper, to minimize resistance; but in turn causing a very 
> short life expectancy.
> 
> *Every* motor is also a generator: But series motors are hard to control as 
> generators. The above characteristics of a starting motor (low efficiency, 
> short life) also make it unsuitable as a generator that runs all the time.
> 
> There are many applications that have combined the ICE starter and generator 
> into a single unit (aircraft, tractors, golf carts, lawn care equipment). It 
> this case, they designed it as a generator first; then tacked on the ability 
> to also use it as a starter.
> 
> A traditional generator is a shunt DC motor. The brushes are carbon for long 
> life. If it's going to used at high current (like for starting), the brushes 
> and commutator have to be much larger (making the motor bigger). The field is 
> separately powered via the voltage regulator. This is an easy way to regulate 
> the output. But a second series field is required to make it work as a 
> starter. Having to put *two* field coils and a bigger commutator and brushes 
> makes the unit bigger. Not as big as a starter + generator; but it's close.
> 
> All this means I don't think you can fit an adequate starter/generator in the 
> space available for the generator alone with conventional techniques.
> 
> Motors with higher power-to-weight ratios generally use high-strength 
> magnets. They remove the need for the field coils; but also make it harder to 
> control. So you're going to need some high-power electronics to control it.
> 
> Another problem with high power-to-weight motors is that (like ICEs) they 
> need to run at high RPM. This will mean a gearbox. That too is going to take 
> up space.
> 
> There may be an easy, cheap, clever solution; but right now I don't see it. 
> Maybe look at other approaches, like a spring starter?
> 
> Lee Hart
> -- 
> When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it
> define you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
>-- Theodor Seuss Geisel
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] new EV in family

[Steves via EV]

Excellent! We love our 2016. We ferried two kayaks on a roof rack to the 
Shenandoah last week and it handled it fine without really losing much range. I 
thought it would be cut way down. I did mostly take the scenic route which kept 
it under 55.

-Steve

> On Oct 5, 2020, at 7:55 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> We just picked up a 2017 Chevy Bolt and its amazing. That is all.
> -ChrisChris' 1972 BMW 2002
> 
> 
> | 
> | 
> | 
> |  |  |
> 
> |
> 
> |
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> |  | 
> Chris' 1972 BMW 2002
> 
> 
> |
> 
> |
> 
> |
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] Is there enough mass to solder? Fw: Soldering vs. spot welding

[Steves via EV]

Something that may help would be use hemostats or similar between where you are 
soldering and the battery connections. That should help limit the heat flow 
into the battery. 

-Steve

> On Aug 23, 2020, at 1:02 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
>  I have made a video of my battery connections. 
> https://youtu.be/JZfhCbUUflo 
> This is a short video of my battery buddy pairs. I think I might be able to 
> solder on the large mass between pairs. At least for the BMS and maybe 40 amp 
> buss bars.  All connections to the cells are spot welded. It is the inter 
> connections I would solder using tin strips.  Lawrence Rhodes
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Destination J1772 hotel charging stations?

[Steves via EV]

They should be. I’m near Leesburg, VA and the Best Western there shows up. I 
found a charger at the Courtyard in Blacksburg that is within walking distance 
of my daughter’s condo which is real convenient when we visit. 

Maybe they are new and haven’t been entered yet?

-Steve

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 3:34 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks
> I looked on PlugShare and saw all the on road charging/fast chargers but 
> didn’t see any destination hotel J1772 charging stations.  How do you find 
> hotels with charging stations?  I stayed at one in Columbia Md B.C. (Before 
> Covid).  But it doesn’t show on PlugShare. 
> Best regards
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Destination J1772 hotel charging stations?

[Steves via EV]

Yes, some hotels have a 115 plug near the parking lot for RVs to plug into. 
I’ve had success with that. Most are pretty accommodating.

Also one place we stayed at was next to a restaurant that had level 2 charging. 

I remember when I first got my Volt and took a trip (2916) a lamented to the 
group how few places I found to plug in. It is much much better now.

-Steve

> On Aug 15, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I ask every hotel I stay at for a place to pluyg in (whether I am driving
> the EV or not).  I make the point that any outdoor outlet is suitable and
> I'll pay the extra $2 for an overnight charge at 120v (40 miles).
> 
> I insist that they are missing a great opportunity8 if they dont put up a
> charging sign,
> 'bob
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 10:15 AM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> google maps works fairly well.
>> Hotels with ev charging
>> 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/search/hotels+with+ev+charging+/@39.1090478,-76.8997063,10z/data=!3m1!4b1
>> 
>> 
>>On Friday, August 14, 2020, 2:34:01 PM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi folks
>> I looked on PlugShare and saw all the on road charging/fast chargers but
>> didn’t see any destination hotel J1772 charging stations.  How do you find
>> hotels with charging stations?  I stayed at one in Columbia Md B.C. (Before
>> Covid).  But it doesn’t show on PlugShare.
>> Best regards
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Big Oil’s green makeover

[Steves via EV]

If I owned a rest stop store , I’d be pushing to put in chargers. You get a 
captive customer for an hour. Sounds like good business. Might even pay off to 
make the charging free. 

-Steve

> On Sep 16, 2020, at 12:35 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> From: Peri Hartman via EV 
>> But adding ESVEs to existing service areas at 
>> interstate exits is a poor compromise. I can't think of a more 
>> unpleasant place to spend 30-45 minutes: a convenience store with 
>> asphault all around it. No where to go except 2 or 3 other gas stations. 
>> Maybe a diner a quarter mile walk away. This is not very conducive to a 
>> pedestrian - which you are while you spend time waiting for your charge.
> 
> Interstate service areas in the midwest are apparently a lot "friendlier" 
> than in your part of the country.
> 
> Some along the Chicago IL tollways are called an "Oasis", and are built on a 
> bridge over the tollway. They have half a dozen stores, gift shops, 
> restaurants, and of course gas stations and convenience stores.
> 
> The ones along I-94 through Wisconsin and Minnesota have picnic areas and 
> tourist centers (maps, brochures for area attractions, gift shops, and guides 
> to offer advice or travel information). Most also have nature walks leading 
> to lakes, forests to stretch your legs or relieve your dog.
> 
> It would not be hard to spend a pleasant hour at any of these.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> 
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Can a DC fast charging option be added to a Chevy Bolt ?

[Steves via EV]

Oh and I’m not so sure fast charge is worth it. It isnt fast if you are more 
than 2/3 full and I’ve found it to be really expensive. I’ve had it quit during 
a charge and have to start again but there is a ‘start up’ charge each time you 
plug in. I drove ours to NJ from VA and when they had free charging at the Rt 
95 rest stops it was nice, but now they charge (a lot). 

Things to keep in mind...

But we love the car!

-Steve

> On Aug 3, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Steves  wrote:
> 
> Our 2019 is a base model LT with the only options being fast charge, comfort 
> package, driver confidence package, and some stupid little stuff (like wheel 
> locks!). It was a car on the lot with that stuff. 
> 
> -Steve
> 
>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 2:01 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi folks
>> How hard is it to add a fast charging option to a Chevy Bolt that doesn’t 
>> have one?  It looks like the base 2020 model doesn’t have and from googling 
>> around appears that you have to buy the Premier version to get it (or at 
>> least that’s what the dealers want you to think).  They’re offering $8.5k 
>> Covid discount now. 
>> Best regards
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Can a DC fast charging option be added to a Chevy Bolt ?

[Steves via EV]

Our 2019 is a base model LT with the only options being fast charge, comfort 
package, driver confidence package, and some stupid little stuff (like wheel 
locks!). It was a car on the lot with that stuff. 

-Steve

> On Aug 3, 2020, at 2:01 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks
> How hard is it to add a fast charging option to a Chevy Bolt that doesn’t 
> have one?  It looks like the base 2020 model doesn’t have and from googling 
> around appears that you have to buy the Premier version to get it (or at 
> least that’s what the dealers want you to think).  They’re offering $8.5k 
> Covid discount now. 
> Best regards
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Fast Charging Various Companies CCS Chevy Bolt

[Steves via EV]

Congrats!  It’s a great car and fun to drive. 

I think, in general, fast chargers take credit card and the regular ones are 
generally on a network. You’ll end up joining several depending on where you 
travel. I don’t think ChargePoint has a fee- but you do have to preload your 
account. 

I use PlugShare usually. You can filter to just show compatible chargers. I 
wish map programs would show where chargers are. I use a map program to get to 
my destination but then I need to pull over and bring up plugshare to find any 
local chargers. Anyone know a better way?

You are near Blacksburg right? Kroger’s have free charging at their gas 
stations (not fast charging). 

I don’t know about switching to 100% periodically. 

-Steve

> On Aug 10, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks
> I just bought a 20’ Chevy Bolt LT $30k with Covid Discount ($40k 
> sucker/sticker price) with some fluffy stuff (last on lot). This was the 
> first time I used a fast charger CCS, easy with a credit card, about 1/2 hour 
> to get to 80% Electrify America. The dealer wanted me to
> Sign up with ChargePoint with membership card but don’t understand why if all 
> “pumps” accept a credit card.  
> Is PlugShare the best all inclusive app to see all the fast charging CCS 
> stations?   I was surprised (unlike the Leaf manual), the Chevy operators 
> manual was
> Just the fluffy stuff, nothing about battery longevity like only charge to 
> 80% for best life (which I’m doing) except for a long trip. Does the BMS have 
> to be reset to 100% occasionally or is charging to 80% always best?
> Best regards
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] car advertising

[Steves via EV]

My advise has been to steer away from heavily advertised autos, as I imagine 
they push the vehicles with the highest profit margin. Even in ‘group’ ads I 
don’t think I ever saw a Bolt or Volt. That’s because they aren’t profit 
centers. More of the price you pay actually went into the vehicle instead of 
the dealers’ or manufactures’ pockets. 

-Steve

> On Jul 12, 2020, at 11:41 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> In contemplating the differences between Tesla and the lesser auto makers, I 
> see advertising as major.
> 
> Auto advertising is expensive and extremely pervasive.  And almost entirely 
> pointless other than to promote brand name recognition.  I see auto ads go by 
> on the TV and try to remember to ask myself:  "What have they told me?"  
> "What is their point?" "What are they trying to tell me?".  The answers are 
> "Nothing", "Nothing I'm interested in".
> 
> Keeping in mind that every dollar that goes into advertising is paid by auto 
> buyers, I urge all to pay more attention to the ads and ask yourselves: "Is 
> this something I want to pay for?".
> 
> Many in the Tesla community say that advertising is crucial to Tesla's 
> continued success.  I could not agree less.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt EV towing capacity NOT!

[Steves via EV]

Yeah, I imagine it’s easier to say no towing than specify how much weight, 
aerodynamics, etc. I used to have a Saab 900 Turbo and I was towing a trailer 
full of tall furniture at 55 and after a while realized I was in continuously 
in turbo. I bet it was the bad aerodynamics. Probably be fine hauling something 
short.

-Steve

> On Jun 22, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> The towing restrictions are for the most stupid idiots among us that would
> try to tow Large things at 85 MPH and then blame everyone else for their
> problems.  I tow my boat, COM trailer, and utility trailers behind my
> prius locally.
> 
> I'd be a fool to try to tow an RV trailer across country though.  Yet both
> applications are for "trailers." And since no one reads the instructions,
> they have to limit their towing to the lowest common denominator of idiot.
> 
> Oh, the normal 55 MPG prius gets 35 MPG towing at 55 MPH to the local
> scout events.
> 
> Bob
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal via EV
> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 1:33 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: e...@vanderwal.us
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt EV towing capacity NOT!
> 
> Actually, from what I've read, the main limitation of towing has mainly to
> do with how safe the combination is at highway speeds.  Most states do not
> limit speed when towing so in order to be rated to tow a trailer, a
> vehicle HAS to be able to do it safely at the highest speed allowed, which
> in the USA is currently 85 mph (perhaps higher?  Montana?).
> 
> I wouldn't want to tow any kind of trailer behind a bolt at 85 mph.
> 
> 
> June 21, 2020 11:43 AM, "Lee Hart via EV"  wrote:
> 
>> Willie via EV wrote:
>> 
>>> It really depends on your anal retentiveness or how risk averse you
> are.
>> 
>> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
 And on whether you're willing to discard the warranty on a $30K+
> vehicle.
>> 
>> Willie via EV wrote:
>>> Agreed. The risk averse should not install a trailer hitch on a car
>>> whose maker prohibits towing. The less risk averse realize that
>>> installation of the hitch does not automatically void all aspects of
>>> the warranty.
>> 
>> The physics of the matter is that towing increases the strain on the
>> batteries, controller, motor, and brakes. Manufacturers prefer to
>> skimp on them to save cost. Towing just might put some part a little
>> above its maximum design limit. Thus, towing increases the chances of a
> failure during warranty.
>> 
>> But of course, how you drive and how often you tow makes a huge
>> difference. Do you do it often? Do you still drive at 80 mph with a
> trailer? In the mountains?
>> 
>> But if you drive very gently when towing, the strain on the drive
>> train can actually be less than the "stop light racers" who drive like
> the accellerator and brake pedal are on/off switches.
>> 
>> So it's easy for the dealer and manufacturer to say "no towing". If it
>> breaks during warranty, they can use the hitch as evidence and deny
>> any coverage. Even if you have never in fact towed anything, they win;
> you lose!
>> 
>> Me; I tow with older vehicles that don't have any warranty anyway.
>> And, I'm a very conservative driver. I've never had any problems due to
> towing.
>> 
>> Lee Hart
>> 
>> -- If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>> - something to do
>> - something to look forward to
>> - someone to love
>> - someone to take good care of
>> - and misbehave, just a little
>> --
>> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt EV towing ... aaerodynamics

[Steves via EV]

That’s good . I got 38 MPG going down 81 last week (70 MPH speed limit) in my 
Volt. So you are doing well! 

-Steve

> On Jun 22, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> I used to have a Saab 900 Turbo and I was towing a trailer full of tall
>> furniture
>> at 55 and after a while realized I was in continuously in turbo.
>> I bet it was the bad aerodynamics.
> 
> Talking about aerodynamics.
> 
> I severely modified my Chevy Volt to add 250W of solar panels, but  I'm
> still getting 40 MPG in all-gas mode.
> I never drove it much on gas and so have no history of MPG prior to the
> mods.
> 
> Theoretically, I'll get about 30 miles a week during the summer free solar
> power.
> 
> See the red Volt on  http://aprs.org/my-EVs.html
> 
> In some sense rounding out the back of some shapes actually can improve
> aerodynamics... or make up for other losses...
> 
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] George's farm truck/van EV project

[Steves via EV]

When I first heard about the Tesla pickup (and before seeing what it was ) I 
started thinking about what I’d want in an electric pickup that opens up 
possibilities not available in an ICE. It would have a bed that could hold 4x8 
plywood and an opening that would extend to the front that could handle 12’ 
lumber (maybe between the seats). The batteries would all be under that and the 
cab would be over. I was kind off disappointed  that the Tesla didn’t seem to 
take great advantage of the space that an EV could offer. 

-Steve

> On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 16 Jun 2020 at 23:59, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> 
>> So, if someone were to produce a long-range "useful" 
>> minivan at a "basic" price, that would be preferable. 
> 
> You have choices!  All you have to do is move to where the government 
> actually gives a fig about the environment - that is, just about any major 
> industrialized nation other than the US.
> 
> Have a look here:
> 
> https://www.drivingelectric.com/best-cars/586/best-electric-vans-2020
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] George's farm truck/van EV project

[Steves via EV]

My 99 odyssey will just barely take a sheet of plywood flat. If I pull the 
front seats forward I can close the tailgate, but it’s cramped for my 6’2” 
frame in the drivers seat.  

-Steve

> On Jun 16, 2020, at 5:25 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Willie via EV wrote:
>>> On 6/16/20 3:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> Is it too late to change your design a bit ? If you can get one of the
>>> dimensions 48" or more, then it is more useful in construction, for
>>> hauling plywood, drywall, and other sheet items.
> 
>> Perhaps they've made provision for loading 4'x8' sheets
>> tilted/diagonally?  Or, hanging over the edge.
> 
> This touches on a pet peeve of mine as well. I've had trucks or vans for my 
> whole adult life, and have frequently hauled heavy or dirty stuff and 4'x8' 
> sheets of material in them. That's what "trucks" are for! It was pretty much 
> a "given" that you had to be able to get a 4'x8' sheet in them.
> 
> But over the years, the "trucks" have become cars with bodies that only look 
> like trucks. The size and weight of the vehicle keeps getting bigger, but its 
> usefulness as a truck gets worse and worse.
> 
> None of the minivans have a 48" wide floor, nor a 48" high ceiling. None of 
> the small pickups can carry a 4'x8' sheet without both the length *and* width 
> hanging out. Try to haul a sheet of drywall propped up on a wheel well and it 
> will break on the first pothole. Yet the vehicles are huge, and weigh 5000 
> lbs.
> 
> Gary, maybe you can design it with a flat floor *above* the wheels? With 
> small tires, the floor would still be much lower than the floor of any 
> current pickup truck. You don't need the fashionable monster wheels that are 
> so popular today.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
> - something to do
> - something to look forward to
> - someone to love
> - someone to take good care of
> - and misbehave, just a little
> --
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Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] EVs not greener than fossil-fuel vehicles?

[Steves via EV]

I was just pondering this the other day. Until we figure out a good completely 
green grid with green backup, we need to compromise. So install as much green 
power generation as possible and augment it with gas turbine or other backup. 
Charge double when the backup is running . That will incentivize more conscious 
use of energy and development of cleaner backup energy.

-Steve

> On Dec 1, 2020, at 5:25 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> I agree 100%.
> 
> Microgrids are being looked at for increasing resiliency and diversity of the 
> grid system, and In California will be part of the strategy for addressing 
> loss of power from potential wildfires.
> 
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 1, 2020, at 9:05 AM, Glenn Brooks via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Current trends in solar point toward mini grids and localized storage 
>> points that connect all the rooftops in a neighborhood, or district, with a 
>> distributed, un-interrupted, on-demand, energy storage and transmission 
>> system. The key to efficiency is each cell, indeed the entire service area, 
>> is controlled by a microprocessor network that automatically optimizes load, 
>> storage, and discharge, and feeds the regional utility system as needed. The 
>> old days of a bunch of one off, independent solar panels, nailed up  hither 
>> and there are long gone - or at least, on their way out.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
 On Dec 1, 2020, at 8:28 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think that this analysis has been done many times, and the amount that 
>>> you get is relatively small compared to the demand, AND the cost can be 
>>> very high if you are including solar films for flat roof solar. And many 
>>> roofs cannot use solar. 
>>> 
>>> You also need to think about storage and transmission.
>>> 
>>> And for those efficiency mavens who think it is the be-all, end-all (I’m 
>>> not one, depending on what you are talking about), it’s pretty inefficient.
>>> 
>>> - Mark
>>> 
>>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>> 
> On Dec 1, 2020, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
 
 What is true is there are plenty of roofs, particularly in southern 
 california, that could be producing more than  ample electricity. Look at 
 this sat photo, which if you zoom out, you'll see that it's one of the 
 greener parts of LA:
 
 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Los+Angeles,+CA/@34.02302,-118.3071616,593m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2c75ddc27da13:0xe22fdf6f254608f4!8m2!3d34.0522342!4d-118.2436849
 
 I would guess that the land, including streets, is close to 50% covered by 
 roofs. I think, with current solar technology and some sort of storage, 
 that's more than ample for 100% of residential power with power left over 
 for tall buildings. No need for kilometers of solar farms.
 
 Peri
 
 
 
 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: "jim--- via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "j...@k6ccc.org" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: 01-Dec-20 7:29:27 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] EVs not greener than fossil-fuel vehicles?
 
> 
> Bill, you better check your math.  It would take a lot more than "a few 
> square kilometers of solar panels put up to supply the entire world’s 
> energy needs".  In very rough numbers, a square kilometer of fairly high 
> conversion rate solar panels is about 250 MegaWatts for roughly a quarter 
> of the day (varies a lot depending on location, and installation, and of 
> course it's a curve, not a on for x hours followed by off for y hours).  
> That is not enough to power downtown Los Angeles - and I'm not talking 
> about the metro area, just downtown.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Prius Prime or RAV4 Plugin Prime?

[Steves via EV]

The volt also runs the engine a bit in cold weather to warm up the batteries 
which probably helps the life. It’s a ‘feature’ I didn’t like at first but have 
accepted. 

-Steve

> On Dec 19, 2020, at 11:07 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Depends on how the vehicle is designed.   I don't know about the Rav4, but I 
> am familiar with the Chevy Volt.  From what I understand, because of the way 
> Chevy designed them, even the original Volts still have 100% of their 
> original battery range.
> 
> What Chevy did was never allow you to use 100% of the battery's capacity.  
> They always maintained the battery somewhere between 10-20% SoC and 80-90% 
> SoC.  The system is designed to never allowed it to fully charge, or fully 
> discharge.  This not only extended the battery life significantly, but 
> allowed a buffer so that as the battery ages you lose the buffer rather than 
> the core range.
> I'm sure eventually they will run out of buffer and then the owners will 
> start to see a drop in range, but even on the 10 year old vehicles that's not 
> happening yet.
> 
> I just wish that Chevy's marketing and sales folks were 1/2 as good as their 
> engineers.
> 
>>> 42 Miles EV range and 3 full size back row seats. (compared to Prius
>>> Prime range of only 25 mi.) Her daily average mileage is on the order of 35
>>> mi+.
>> 
>> That 20% doesn't seem like much of a range buffer. Seems to me she's likely
>> to run short in cold weather, and probably on hot summer days when whe wants
>> aircon.
>> 
>> The range will fall as the battery ages, too. At 80% battery capacity, it
>> won't be enough no matter what the conditions are.
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade

[Steves via EV]

One possibility is that the mileage varies with temperature . I typically show 
60 miles in summer and 40 in winter ( northern VA).

Also I think it projects mileage based on recent usage. So the trips to and 
from mailbox may be poor mileage trips.

Does it show 40 miles after several more chargings?

-Steve

> On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Bill Dennis via EV  wrote:
> 
> She leaves the car plugged in all the time, even after it's fully charged.
> She uses 110V charging.
> 
> Bill
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 12:32 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Peri Hartman
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade
> 
> What does the Volt charger do at full charge and the cable stays plugged 
> in ? Does it periodically recharge as parasitic uses discharge the 
> battery ? What is her charging pattern and what was it before the 
> pandemic ? It could be that, after one year, constant recharging to 100% 
> damaged the cells. What Just pure speculation.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Glenn Brooks via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Glenn Brooks" 
> Sent: 03-Feb-21 11:26:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade
> 
>> One of the Battery cells going bad, maybe.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Bill Dennis via EV 
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Pre-pandemic, when my mother-in-law charged her 2017 Chevy Volt, it
> would
>>> have about 60 miles electric range.  Throughout the pandemic, she's done
>>> nothing with the car except drive it to the top of the driveway and back
> to
>>> check the mail.  When we were finally able to get to Georgia to visit
> her
>>> this week after fifteen months, I notice that a full charge shows only
> 40
>>> miles range now.  Anyone ever notice anything similar, or have any guess
>>> why?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade

[Steves via EV]

I’ve had the mileage indicator actually show more miles available  after a run 
into town than when I started. It must have used historic high rate miles and 
as I went into town at lower speeds it started correcting. 

-Steve

> On Feb 3, 2021, at 4:06 PM, Rod Hower via EV  wrote:
> 
>  I have a 2014 Volt which has much less range (smaller battery pack 16.5 kWh 
> of which 10.8 is used, 2017 has a 18.4 kWh pack).  I have a 21 mile commute 
> to work and get notifications from Chargepoint about how much energy was 
> used.  Typically in the summer I'll put 6.2 to 7.2 kWh back in.  During the 
> winter, especially on cold days it puts in 10.4 to 11.4 kWh.  So my typical 
> range is 42 miles in the summer and 25 miles in the winter. The guessometer 
> also bases the range on usage and short trips to the mail box will throw it 
> off.
>On Wednesday, February 3, 2021, 03:42:37 PM EST, via EV 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Yes, wait until normal driving returns and it should recover.  The mileage
> estimate is also due to the short cycling and parasitic loads.
> 
>> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 12:39 PM Bill Dennis via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'll try a few more charging cycles.  Right now, whenever I take it out,
>> it's doing its mandatory running of the ICE engine, so the charge hasn't
>> gone down yet.
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Steves via EV
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 1:30 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: Steves
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade
>> 
>> One possibility is that the mileage varies with temperature . I typically
>> show 60 miles in summer and 40 in winter ( northern VA).
>> 
>> Also I think it projects mileage based on recent usage. So the trips to
>> and from mailbox may be poor mileage trips.
>> 
>> Does it show 40 miles after several more chargings?
>> 
>> -Steve
>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:55 PM, Bill Dennis via EV 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> She leaves the car plugged in all the time, even after it's fully
>> charged.
>>> She uses 110V charging.
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman
>> via EV
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 12:32 PM
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>> Cc: Peri Hartman
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade
>>> 
>>> What does the Volt charger do at full charge and the cable stays plugged
>>> in ? Does it periodically recharge as parasitic uses discharge the
>>> battery ? What is her charging pattern and what was it before the
>>> pandemic ? It could be that, after one year, constant recharging to 100%
>>> damaged the cells. What Just pure speculation.
>>> 
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Glenn Brooks via EV" 
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>> Cc: "Glenn Brooks" 
>>> Sent: 03-Feb-21 11:26:39 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pandemic Cell Fade
>>> 
>>>> One of the Battery cells going bad, maybe.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 3, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Bill Dennis via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pre-pandemic, when my mother-in-law charged her 2017 Chevy Volt, it
>>> would
>>>>> have about 60 miles electric range.  Throughout the pandemic, she's
>> done
>>>>> nothing with the car except drive it to the top of the driveway and
>> back
>>> to
>>>>> check the mail.  When we were finally able to get to Georgia to visit
>>> her
>>>>> this week after fifteen months, I notice that a full charge shows only
>>> 40
>>>>> miles range now.  Anyone ever notice anything similar, or have any
>> guess
>>>>> why?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Green car reports - illegible?

[Steves via EV]

I had the same trouble with the Washington Post and complained (to no avail). 
Are you red/green color blind? I don’t think designers take that Into account. 
On our Bolt, the seat heater shows the heat level with tiny red (I think) dots. 
I can’t see them. 

-Steve

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 1:26 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> I subscribe to Green Car Reports and really enjoy their news and
> their format.  But I simply cannot see/read their embedded links.
> They use a light green font for links and I have to hold my laptop
> up to my eyes or use a magnifier to be able to read the link.
> 
> I have emailed my objection to their low-contrast light-green color
> and font but to no avail.  But then I am just one man complaining.
> 
> Maybe if you get Green Car Reports and you also find it hard to
> read the embedded light-green-links, maybe you too would
> be willing to send them a note of feedback.
> 
> Just say'in
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Green car reports - illegible?

[Steves via EV]

Dag nab it!

-Steve

> On Jun 8, 2021, at 3:41 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> In the name of aesthetics, so many web designers choose color combinations 
> that look pretty but are sometimes illegible. I can read the light green font 
> for links, but it's hard. And, if outside, probably not at all.
> 
> Another example is google search. Years ago, after clicking a search result, 
> the link would change to a different color. That made it easy to see which 
> links had been viewed and which not. Nowadays, if there is a change in color, 
> I can't see it.
> 
> If a designer is going to do these things, why can't they also offer a high 
> contrast setting ! Maybe it's time for the ADA people to step in. :)
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Steves via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Steves" 
> Sent: 08-Jun-21 10:43:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Green car reports - illegible?
> 
>> I had the same trouble with the Washington Post and complained (to no 
>> avail). Are you red/green color blind? I don’t think designers take that 
>> Into account. On our Bolt, the seat heater shows the heat level with tiny 
>> red (I think) dots. I can’t see them.
>> 
>> -Steve
>> 
>>>> On Jun 8, 2021, at 1:26 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I subscribe to Green Car Reports and really enjoy their news and
>>> their format.  But I simply cannot see/read their embedded links.
>>> They use a light green font for links and I have to hold my laptop
>>> up to my eyes or use a magnifier to be able to read the link.
>>> 
>>> I have emailed my objection to their low-contrast light-green color
>>> and font but to no avail.  But then I am just one man complaining.
>>> 
>>> Maybe if you get Green Car Reports and you also find it hard to
>>> read the embedded light-green-links, maybe you too would
>>> be willing to send them a note of feedback.
>>> 
>>> Just say'in
>>> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Wash. will try again to for EV sales mandate

[Steves via EV]

Here in VA we pay a fee if we have an EV. That doesn’t bother me too much as I 
am willing to help pay for roads. BUT they also charge a fee for fuel efficient 
vehicles, as they say they don’t pay their fair share. I live in northern VA 
and we also have air pollution problems . So if I make less pollution , I’m 
charged extra?! Go figure.

-Steve

> On May 15, 2021, at 3:30 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> On 15 May 2021 at 14:57, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> 
>> Raise EV road use tax by X and raise the gas drivers ENVIRONMENTAL USE
>> tax by the same amount -  X. 
> 
> I see your point, but I think that vehicle owners should pay in proportion 
> to the environmental harm they cause.  The more environmentally destructive 
> the vehicle is, the more it should cost to keep it on the road.  EV owners 
> *should* pay the least.
> 
> A yearly license surcharge based on the vehicle's MPGe would do that.  
> Owners of EVs that waste more energy would pay more than those who have 
> energy-thrifty EVs.  ICEV owners would pay more than either, with those 
> driving the heavy, bloated monstrosities paying the most.
> 
> Adding a mileage component would be a further improvement, but I consider 
> the active monitoring mechanisms proposed for that too invasive.  
> 
> I'd prefer that license bureaus verify vehicle mileages at each license 
> renewal.  As a bonus this scheme would reduce unemployment because license 
> bureaus would need more staff members!
> 
> Another possible solution would be a fee assessed when the vehicle is sold 
> or scrapped, based on its MPGe and mileage accrued by the owner selling or 
> scrapping the vehicle.  
> 
> For greater fairness, make all these fees means-tested.  Add a factor based 
> on the owner's previous year's IRS AGI.:-)
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows
> other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes 
> through their pockets for loose grammar. 
> 
>   -- Jamee Nicoll 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y Spare Tire location ?

[Steves via EV]

There also the problem of EV tires tending to be special order, so even if you 
get towed you may be stuck somewhere several days waiting on a tire. My wife 
had a sidewall puncture from road debris and luckily got home. So at least the 
car was stuck at home while we waited on tire delivery.

-Steve

> On May 17, 2021, at 1:18 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> It's clear these cars are currently being made for show. Large wheels with 
> tiny sidewalls. No spare tire. Low ground clearance, no skid plates. The 
> Model Y might be called a crossover, but it's really not intended to go off 
> smooth pavement. Maybe the cybertruck is different (but too big for me).
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Jim Walls via EV" 
> To: "(-Phil-) via EV" 
> Cc: "Jim Walls" 
> Sent: 17-May-21 10:13:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y Spare Tire location ?
> 
>>> On 05/16/2021 21:40, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>>> Yeah, to me a plug kit and a good compressor are all I need.  IMO, it's
>>> pretty rare you get a flat you can't plug.
>> 
>> Unless that flat is on the freeway.  By the time you can get slowed down, 
>> pull over and stop, the tire is trashed.
>> And I agree with several others, I would not want to NOT have a spare.  I 
>> seldom get a flat, but would hate to be 20 miles up a dirt road without one.
>> 
>> -- 73
>> -
>> Jim Walls - K6CCC
>> j...@k6ccc.org
>> Ofc:  818-548-4804
>> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
>> AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Ford F-150 Reveal

[Steves via EV]

They say ‘projected’ EPA range is 230. The EPA ranges for my volt and bolt seem 
to agree with my actual experience. That said, it doesn’t appear that the F150 
is very streamlined; I imagine they wanted to make it look like a ‘normal’ 
pickup as much as possible. Must be a big battery. 

I agree that the V2H (had to look that up) is very attractive.

-Steve

> On May 21, 2021, at 9:36 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5/21/21 4:18 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Yeah, the 4 dollar model is basic no frills and 230 mile range is city 
>> driving I bet it won’t go 200 miles on the highway based on my experience 
>> driving Tesla’s
> 
> I'll certainly be interested in seeing highway speed ranges. My impression is 
> that, with CyberTruck, attention was given to aerodynamics.  So, the CT may 
> be a lot better than any traditional looking pickup.
> 
> With my values, the main attraction of the Ford would be V2H.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Why SUVs are popular (Solar Panels On EV)

[Steves via EV]

I agree completely. They don’t make the Volt anymore. It was never really 
advertised, except perhaps before and when it first came out. But it was really 
never pushed. And it is a do everything car. EV mode for daily needs, gas for 
long trips, fold down seats and hatchback to carry stuff. Reasonable price. But 
I’m sure it wasn’t a moneymaker. Highest margins are on pickups and SUVs do 
that’s what they push.

Advertising , sadly, works. I remember reading an article one time about why 
well known brands like Coke advertise. They said if they stopped advertising 
then after a while people would stop buying it. 

-Steve

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 4:16 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> One more time.
> 
> Very few people buy the products they need.  They buy the products that are 
> SOLD to them.  Ask any advertising professional or media person.  That's 
> their business.
> 
> No other factor in purchasing decisions carries anything close to 
> advertising's weight.  
> 
> It may be difficult for you to understand or believe this because you, like 
> most folks here, are probably more a "thinker" than a "feeler."  Trust me, 
> you're atypical.  
> 
> Fifty years ago, pickup trucks were for tradespeople and farmers.  A  1970s 
> teenage boy would do almost anything to avoid having to drive dad's pickup 
> on a date.
> 
> SUVs were for hunters, campers, and sportsmen.  "Normal" people didn't buy 
> them because they were clumsy, ugly, and "drove like trucks," which is what 
> they were.
> 
> Then came CAFE.  Trucks were exempt from CAFE regulations.  The automakers 
> despised CAFE, so they began advertising trucks and SUVs heavily.  
> 
> If you can't guess what happened next, just read the first paragraph at the 
> top of this message.
> 
> The ads still push pickups, SUVs, and now crossovers (clumsy, topheavy, 
> overweight, overpowered station wagons).  In fact, the automakers advertise 
> almost nothing else.  
> 
> So people buy pickups, SUVs, and crossovers, regardless of what they really 
> need.  They literally never even consider anyhing else.  That's why both Lee 
> and I see driveways here in the midwest stuffed with 3 or 4 or 5 vehicles, 
> and every bloody one of them is a pickup or SUV.   
> 
> When Hyundai wanted to establish themselvs in the US market in the 1980s, 
> they advertised their subcompact Excel.  It wasn't a very good car, but they 
> sold a lot of them, because they advertised it.
> 
> If the automakers wanted to sell small cars, ICEV or EV, they'd advertise 
> them.  They don't, and they don't.
> 
> When the automakers want to sell EVs in the US, they'll advertise them here. 
> They don't, and they don't.  
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> If you made a column of things you're pretty sure you know, and 
> then made another column of how you know those things, most of 
> that column is like: "Some guy told me." It's just clickbait 
> and hearsay.  Goes into the head, locks onto a feeling, you're 
> like: "That sounds good. I'm gonna tell other people that." And 
> that's how brand marketing works, and also fascism, we're 
> finding.
> 
> -- Marc Maron
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EV acceptance training

[Steves via EV]

I think dealers of all makes are bad at this. We had similar experiences with 
Ford. 

When my daughter was looking for a car I tried to find her a plug in hybrid. 
They basically don’t exist in Virginia. She finally found a hybrid RAV4 which 
is really nice. 

-Steve

> On Feb 8, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> GM has a fantastic EV engineering department, hampered by probably the WORST 
> EV sales team.  If they want to make a difference they need to train their 
> DEALERS.  It's not the customers that are the problem.
> 
> Many of the local GM dealers refuse to carry EVs and actively try to talk you 
> out of purchasing them. The few dealers that do carry them, only stock a 
> couple and don't make any effort to promote them.  THe last time I was 
> shopping for an EV the dealer (that had one) diddn't even know where they had 
> hidden it.  It took them 20 minutes to find it and it didn't have the feature 
> I most wanted (DC fast charging)
> 
> February 6, 2021 2:00 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:
> 
>> Another article today about GM's "commitment" to EVs.
>> 
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/02/06/auto-industry-peers-into-an-electric-f
>> ture-sees-bumps-ahead
>> 
>> GM has prepared a superbowl ad that portrays GM as being angry that 
>> Norway sells more EVs than US. I doubt this means GM expects to suddenly 
>> double their EV sales, or something like that. But I see this very 
>> positively, in that if viewers see EVs as being portrayed as mainstream, 
>> resistance will drop.
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> Conquering Norway’s small car market won’t make or break the fate of GM, 
>> which has been making cars for more than a century. But the good-humored 
>> GM ad — one of two EV ads the company will air — is another sign that 
>> the world’s fourth-largest automobile company might be trying to steer 
>> its way toward a new era of electric vehicles.
>> ...
>> David R. Keith, a Chevy Bolt owner and assistant professor at the Sloan 
>> School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said 
>> “given that EVs cost more than conventional vehicles and we’re at a 
>> point where consumers are not making lavish discretionary purchases, the 
>> question is not, ‘Can we sell to the wealthy?’ It is, ‘Can we get the 
>> everyday household in mainstream America to buy an EV?’ and we’re still 
>> a long way away from that.”
>> ...
>> many GM workers in software were disappointed. One current GM employee 
>> said there were “good benefits” and a “good work/life balance,” but “too 
>> much time spent on meetings and political games.” The advice to 
>> management? “It is hopeless. IT management needs to be completely 
>> replaced. IT bureaucracy is an obstacle for innovation.”
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The article covers other aspects, too.
>> Peri
>> 
>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org >>
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Bad Dealers (EV acceptance training)

[Steves via EV]

I think it’s due to:
1. It’s still a niche market for traditional makers
2. Margins are low or negative (how many Volt ads do you see? Even when Chevy 
would do a ‘here’s our lineup’ ad, they would not show Volts). Pickups and SUVs 
are high profit 
3. Dealer must invest in training and equipment 
4. Yes, service brings in the money and EVs need much less service. 

Most people don’t consider EVs because there is virtually no marketing for 
them. Ads, unfortunately, work on most people.

-Steve

> On Feb 9, 2021, at 8:24 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Do you really think it’s about service? I work as an engineer so almost 
> everyone I know is an engineer. One would think they were open minded and 
> interested in technology but that is not my experience. Most of them won’t 
> even consider an electric. The chief engineer on the project wouldn’t even 
> ride in my Tesla. Calls it my golf cart. Another guy says he likes the loud 
> noise made by his ice and that’s part of the thrill. I influenced 4 in my 
> office into buying a Tesla by letting them drive mine. What is needed is a 
> paradigm shift. I think this is what you see with salespersons they think the 
> whole idea is stupid 
> 
> 
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, February 8, 2021, 4:22 PM, david via EV  wrote:
> 
> I live in South Florida, there are Teslas and a few Leaf's.  My Nissan dealer 
> shares a technician with 3 other dealerships who is certified to work on the 
> electric parts of the Leaf.  That technician is also certified for the GT 
> cars so he has a lot of training and there is a lot of demand.  I had an 
> electric break assist recall that needed firmware update. I waited over a 
> week for this really smart young man to do it.  If you sell it you need to 
> service it.  I suspect regular ICE mechanics don’t want to learn about the 
> computer systems.
> 
> David Kerzel
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
> Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 12:01 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Peri Hartman 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bad Dealers (EV acceptance training)
> 
> Regarding lack of EV promotion by dealers, the business model will have to 
> change. Everyone knows they make most (all ?) their money from service. 
> Naturally, they are going to promote vehicles that bring them the highest 
> level of service income, balanced somehow with selling something that 
> consumers want.
> 
> A new business model needs to shift some of the profit to the sales segment. 
> But that's a non starter if it's going to cause the sales cost of the car to 
> go up a thousand or two dollars. So, I think, that's going to push 
> dealerships into finding a way to lower overhead.
> 
> The first question is what do consumers want from a dealer when shopping ? 
> Surely, it's mostly the touch & feel plus the test drive. Otherwise, why have 
> a dealer at all ? So, my guess is that a new model will be more like Tesla's. 
> That is, a tiny staff and a handful or cars for viewing and test driving and 
> little or no inventory. Maybe a VR simulator for checking out options. You 
> decide what you want and order a car.
> 
> Just watch what happens over the next few years. New dealerships will open, 
> and I'll be some will use a model something like this.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Steves via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Steves" 
> Sent: 08-Feb-21 8:26:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV acceptance training
> 
>> I think dealers of all makes are bad at this. We had similar experiences 
>> with Ford.
>> 
>> When my daughter was looking for a car I tried to find her a plug in hybrid. 
>> They basically don’t exist in Virginia. She finally found a hybrid RAV4 
>> which is really nice.
>> 
>> -Steve
>> 
>>>>   On Feb 8, 2021, at 11:13 AM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>   GM has a fantastic EV engineering department, hampered by probably the 
>>> WORST EV sales team.  If they want to make a difference they need to train 
>>> their DEALERS.  It's not the customers that are the problem.
>>> 
>>>   Many of the local GM dealers refuse to carry EVs and actively try to 
>>> talk you out of purchasing them. The few dealers that do carry them, 
>>> only stock a couple and don't make any effort to promote them.  THe 
>>> last time I was shopping for an EV the dealer (that had one) diddn't 
>>> even know where they had hidden it.  It took them 20 minutes to

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y Operating manual on EBay

[Steves via EV]

You’d think they would have the manual stored in memory in the car, with 
updates online.

-Steve

> On Mar 22, 2021, at 5:44 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 3/22/21 4:28 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
>> Hi folks
>> You would think I bought a $500 car not $55k with no operating manual in the 
>> glove box just online.  A guy on EBay prints them out and binds for the 
>> glove box. I just put “Operating manual for Tesla Y” in the search. Now I’ll 
>> have a reference when I question something instead of asking the great god 
>> google for every piddly thing.
> 
> Your car has an online manual, easily accessible from the display. 
> Searchable.  Have you looked at that?  I'm pretty sure it is accessible 
> through standard (rather than "premium") cell service.  Certainly, when you 
> are wifi connected.  You will need to stay wifi connected as often as 
> possible to receive software updates.  I don't regularly do it but I believe 
> you can query the manual via voice.
> 
> If you don't like your car I'm sure you will find it easy to sell.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y constant humming when parked in garage, wasting kwh

[Steves via EV]

Could be it was trying to communicate with the coil!

-Steve

> On Mar 25, 2021, at 9:17 AM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Paul/Phil 
> When I let it out of the garage this morning it was quiet but all last night 
> when I was working in the garage (about 4 hours building a Tesla Coil) the 
> Tesla was humming.  I’ll turn off sentry mode (I assume it’s in security 
> directory). 
> Best regards
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 25, 2021, at 7:29 AM, paul dove  wrote:
> 
> 
> Be sure to turn off sentry mode
> 
> On Wednesday, March 24, 2021, 8:45:18 PM CDT, mark hanson via EV 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> My Tesla-Y is constantly humming (fans/pumps?) when parked in the garage for
> hours.  I heard it loses 1% daily, seems wasteful to me.  Is there a way to
> turn power off to things when parked?  My Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are
> silent when parked.
> 
> 
> 
> Also Dave put my trailer wiring for the Bolt EV on www.EVDL.org/lib/mh .  I
> dug into the Tesla-Y wire harness tonight behind tail lights - so I'll have
> one for the Tesla-Y soon using similar diodes.  Must have LEDs on your
> trailer.
> 
> 
> 
> Have a renewable energy day,
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Mark E. Hanson
> 
> 184 Vista Lane
> 
> Fincastle, VA 24090
> 
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> 
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> 
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> 
> UL Certified PV Installer
> 
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 
> 
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 
> 
> 
>  75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Tesla Y

[Steves via EV]

Remember that the Bolt also doesn’t have a spare. Remember too that EVs don’t 
always use readily available tires, so if you get a flat, you could be stuck 
for a few days waiting on tire delivery. Yes, they (Chevy anyway) give you an 
inflator and something like fix-a-flat but it’s useless on some punctures and 
gums up the inside of the rim - it will piss off the tire changer. My wife hit 
road debris in the bolt and holed the sidewall. Luckily she made it home and it 
went flat overnight. Sidewall puncture, so new tire, which took several days to 
get. 

I added a spare to my Volt as that is our long trip car. Luckily haven’t had to 
deploy it yet.

-Steve

> On Mar 22, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Folks
> Ben My son and I rode up to Tyson’s Corner off the dc beltway 225 miles in 
> the Bolt EV, stopped at a fast charger Woodstock va for insurance at Walmart 
> Subway for lunch.  The Bolt is 260 miles if not using the heater, about 225 
> if using.  The Tesla Y at 316 miles made it the 225 miles without stopping 
> but was thirsty for electrons when I got home.  All the controls are in weird 
> places or through menus on the touch screen. They didn’t copy any 
> conventional auto layout of controls.  The only thing that’s in the normal 
> spot is the horn.  $50k turned into $55k after $1k for paint (luckily didn’t 
> charge extra for the steering wheel), $1.2k for documentation (I guess that 
> was the email they sent to pick it up) and $2k for sales tax.  It was like 
> the 3 stooges with kids just out of high school doing everything and making 
> it up as they went.  Got there at 1:30 and out at 4pm, took awhile to find my 
> car.  Ben said isn’t it the blue one on top of that tractor trailer from 
> Fremont Cal?  They said oh no, it’s in the back of the garage somewhere.  
> After waiting another 1/2 hour, they quietly unloaded it off the top of the 
> truck , forgot to put the front tag on it or the inspection sticker.  I found 
> the tag in the trunk by the missing spare tire (spares are optional now 
> unless you get a flat). The tag just had double sided sticky tape to stick on 
> the front plastic bumper.  No explanation on how to operate The vehicle and 
> the users manual in the glove box (after I found how to open it on the menu 
> screen) was worthless, how to fasten seatbelt nonsense. 
> For dealer experience and ease of use controls , Tesla gets a F and Chevy 
> Bolt gets an A. 
> Best regards
> Mark
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Spare tire kit for Tesla Y recommendations?

[Steves via EV]

I don’t think it’s necessarily a question of AAA getting to you, but what can 
they do if you have no spare and no local tire places have that tire in stock? 
You’d have to be towed somewhere and wait for a tire to be shipped. And of 
course this will happen on a Saturday evening.

I like the idea floated of the plug kit. That might be a good compromise plan.

-Steve

> On Mar 22, 2021, at 2:23 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
> 
> On Mon Mar 22 10:51:56 PDT 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>> Sounds good. I?ll check it out. I usually carry a mini spare though, bought 
>> on Amazon for the Bolt and the Leaf.  I?ve had my share of flats where I had 
>> to have a spare.
> 
> Hmm, you must drivce further off road that I do.
> I've never had a flat or breakdown in a place that AAA couldn't get to.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Y trailer lights wiring?

[Steves via EV]

Mark,

I’d be interested to have any info on wiring up trailer lights on the Bolt. I 
have a hitch but right now it’s just for a bike rack. 

Do you tow with the Bolt?

-Steve

> On Mar 19, 2021, at 1:19 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> 
> I believe the Y comes with a 7 pin tow package, but you can buy a 7 to 4 pin 
> adapter.
> 
> https://shop.tesla.com/product/model-y-tow-package
> 
> Jay
> 
>> On 3/19/21 1:14 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
>> Hi folks
>> The Tesla dealer isn’t informative about a wiring schematic, where to hook 
>> in the left, right turn signal rear lights and brake lights to a standard 
>> flat 4 position trailer connector.  Does anyone know how to wire in a 
>> trailer light connector and point where to find schematics?  This was 
>> difficult on the Chevy Bolt when I did it last fall.
>> Best regards
>> Mark
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] tesla in trouble with "full self driving" marketing

[Steves via EV]

Those caveats pretty much sum up my daily driving experience in Northern 
Virginia. 

-Steve

> On Mar 12, 2021, at 1:15 AM, Haudy Kazemi via EV  wrote:
> 
> Cost is a factor but it alone does not always win the day. After all, if
> up-front and operating costs were the only winning factors, we might all be
> driving heavily depreciated Gen 2 Priuses (with catalytic converter
> shields), with 200k miles on the odometer.
> 
> Many of us value the various benefits of  EVs. Some of us also value
> advanced driver assist features, including those Tesla is developing under
> the names 'Autopilot' and 'Full Self Driving (FSD)'.
> 
> With FSD, Tesla is selling access to a software product they are actively
> developing and that remains feature incomplete. IMO, Tesla has a track
> record of eventually delivering most of what they promise, although their
> schedules are prone to slippage. Autopilot and FSD have no effect on the
> ability to manually drive the vehicle, and when in use, the driver can take
> over at anytime if they want to do so.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2021, 13:26 EVDL Administrator via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 11 Mar 2021 at 16:36, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> Tesla lawyers recently admitted the $10,000 option that Tesla
>>> sells as Full Self-Driving Capability is not, in fact, capable of full
>>> self-driving.
>> 
>> Good grief.  Completely apart from the outright deception here - ten
>> thousand dollars!  In some places you can buy an ENTIRE CAR for $10k.
>> 
>> I'm not talking about some third world nation here.  Granted, it's not an
>> EV, and it's a bit spartan, but in the EU the Dacia Logan starts at 8400
>> euros (US$9996).
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> What has allowed so many psychopathic personalities to rise
>> so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they
>> are so decisive. Unlike normal people, they are never filled
>> with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what
>> happens next.
>> 
>>  -- Kurt Vonnegut
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Affordable Long Range EV

[Steves via EV]

That’s odd it went up to 100%, did it throttle back to a lower rate?

Also be aware Bolts have a recall because of potential battery fires. While 
they figure out what to do they are changing the programming to only go to 80% 
charge.

-Steve

> On Mar 3, 2021, at 6:31 PM, Bob Bath via EV  wrote:
> 
> My 2020 allows me charging options, similar to my 2013 LEAF. We set our 
> preferences on the car (home charging option) to give it 80% for long life. 
> But if we ever have a long road trip in it, the _away_charging option in the 
> car is set for 100%. You need to set it up so that it recognizes where your 
> home charger is, though. Please see manual. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Bob Bath
> 
> Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 55 y.o. 
> vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
> cluelessness. 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 3:19 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi folks
>> 
>> With the request for $25k for an affordable EV, the 2021 Bolt comes close at 
>> $26k I saw last week in the showroom at Shelor in Christiansburg but I 
>> already bought a 20’ model in August for $30k with a $10k “Covid discount”.  
>> I drove up today from Roanoke to Columbia Md and stopped at an Electrify 
>> America CCS fast charger Woodstock , Md used my credit card easy-peasey And 
>> then when it got to 80% it kept going to 100%.  I thought they stopped at 
>> 80% ?   Is it ok to charge the battery on a fast charger to 100% without 
>> cooking it?  Took an extra 20 minutes while I was reading the EVDL 
>> discussion list :-)
>> Best regards
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] aptera in the news

[Steves via EV]

Yeah I liked that original one - so cool. 

-Steve

> On Feb 26, 2021, at 2:23 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> I want one with wings. But, then, I guess they'd have to change the name ...
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Peter VanDerWal via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: e...@vanderwal.us
> Sent: 26-Feb-21 8:51:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] aptera in the news
> 
>> Is anyone keeping track of how many times Aptera has announced that they 
>> will go into production "this year"?
>> 
>> I love the concept and IF they ever actually go on sale, I'll probably buy 
>> one.  However, given their track record...
>> 
>> February 25, 2021 5:57 PM, "Peri Hartman via EV"  wrote:
>> 
>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/solar-car
>>> 
>>> Aptera Motors, a California company whose name comes from the ancient
>>> Greek for “wingless,” is rolling out the first mass-produced solar car
>>> this year. It’s a three-wheel, ultra-aerodynamic electric vehicle
>>> covered in 34 square feet of solar cells. The car is so efficient that,
>>> on a clear day, those cells alone could provide enough energy to drive
>>> about 40 miles — more than twice the distance of the average American’s
>>> commute.
>>> ...
>>> From top to wheels, the Aptera is designed to eliminate as much waste as
>>> possible. Its creators say the car is 13 times more efficient than a
>>> gas-powered pickup truck and four times more efficient than the average
>>> electric vehicle. At least 90 percent of the power produced by the
>>> Aptera’s solar panels goes toward making the vehicle move, the company
>>> says.
>>> ...
>>> Anthony and Fambro know how easy it is to fail. Four years after
>>> founding Aptera in 2006, they left the venture amid disagreement with
>>> other leadership — auto industry veterans who wanted to build a
>>> traditional four-wheeled vehicle to qualify for federal loans. But the
>>> money never materialized. The company was liquidated in 2011, and its
>>> intellectual property sold.
>>> ...
>>> After a decade spent pursuing other ventures, Aptera’s creators bought
>>> back the company in 2019 and launched a crowdfunding campaign to restart
>>> development.
>>> 
>>> Their timing was good. Electric batteries had gotten much cheaper and
>>> lighter. Solar cells had become more efficient. Advances in computing
>>> enabled the inventors to simulate the vehicles on their desktops,
>>> speeding up the design process. Even the constraints imposed by the
>>> coronavirus pandemic spurred creativity, Anthony said.
>>> 
>>> When Aptera began taking preorders last December, it sold out of its
>>> planned first batch of 330 vehicles in 24 hours. Almost 7,500 people
>>> have now put down deposits for a car.
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> Peri
>>> 
>>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org >>
>>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Affordable Long Range EV

[Steves via EV]

Thanks for the correction! Should have fact checked myself. 

-Steve

> On Mar 3, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV  wrote:
> 
> Your information on the Bolt recall is wrong!
> 
> The recall only applies to model years 2017, 2018, and some 2019.  Model 
> years 2020 and 2021 are not subject to the recall.
> 
> The temporary work around is to only charge to 90%.
> 
> Ed
> 
>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 4:55 PM, Steves via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> That’s odd it went up to 100%, did it throttle back to a lower rate?
>> 
>> Also be aware Bolts have a recall because of potential battery fires. While 
>> they figure out what to do they are changing the programming to only go to 
>> 80% charge.
>> 
>> -Steve
>> 
>>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 6:31 PM, Bob Bath via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My 2020 allows me charging options, similar to my 2013 LEAF. We set our 
>>> preferences on the car (home charging option) to give it 80% for long life. 
>>> But if we ever have a long road trip in it, the _away_charging option in 
>>> the car is set for 100%. You need to set it up so that it recognizes where 
>>> your home charger is, though. Please see manual. 
>>> 
>>> Sincerely, 
>>> Bob Bath
>>> 
>>> Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 55 y.o. 
>>> vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— 
>>> not cluelessness. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 3:19 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi folks
>>>> 
>>>> With the request for $25k for an affordable EV, the 2021 Bolt comes close 
>>>> at $26k I saw last week in the showroom at Shelor in Christiansburg but I 
>>>> already bought a 20’ model in August for $30k with a $10k “Covid 
>>>> discount”.  
>>>> I drove up today from Roanoke to Columbia Md and stopped at an Electrify 
>>>> America CCS fast charger Woodstock , Md used my credit card easy-peasey 
>>>> And then when it got to 80% it kept going to 100%.  I thought they stopped 
>>>> at 80% ?   Is it ok to charge the battery on a fast charger to 100% 
>>>> without cooking it?  Took an extra 20 minutes while I was reading the EVDL 
>>>> discussion list :-)
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Mark
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt Level3 fast charging time

[Steves via EV]

Something else occurred to me. Did you have the max charge level set to 100%? 
It defaults to 80. It’s possible that if set to 80 it starts backing off the 
rate even sooner? Pure conjecture on my part.

-Steve

> On Feb 23, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark, you may want to have the cells checked.
> 
> I have a 2011 leaf. When it was new, it would get an 20% to 80% L3 charge in 
> about 20 minutes. That would be roughly 15kWh, translating to about a 45kw 
> charge rate. (check my math, the battery is 24kWh.)
> 
> I rarely use L3 charging, but I did last year and the ESVE reported a rate of 
> 10kWh. (It actually started at about 25kWh but dropped to 10 over several 
> minutes.) And that was with the battery at about 20% SOC.
> 
> My guess is that some sensors (temp ? over voltage ?) were reporting limits 
> to the car's charging software. After 8 or 9 years, the cells are pretty beat 
> up, so it doesn't surprise me too much. But you have a relatively new car.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
> Sent: 23-Feb-21 5:05:20 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt Level3 fast charging time
> 
>> Hi folks
>> When I fast charge on the Road to 80% with my Bolt EV it takes about an hour 
>> to put back 25KWH.  The manual says it should be 55kwh in an hour.  Does 
>> anyone know why it’s not charging at the 55KW rate?  Is there an aftermarket 
>> kit to boost the KW acceptance rate?  Electrify America fast CCS chargers 
>> operate to 350KW.  Also I paid 43c per kWh at Sheetz near Charlottesville Va 
>> (home is 12c).  I assume they split the take between Sheetz and Electrify 
>> America (VW)?
>> I saw on the news that folks in Texas are paying $100s per KWH and utilities 
>> cleaning out checking accounts $10k-$16k since direct link to accounts.  How 
>> is this even possible to charge that much per KWh? Aren’t utilities 
>> regulated for a max per kWh they can charge?  I have a direct link to my 
>> checking account with my utility to pay the monthly $31 service fee (net 
>> zero solar customer ) but maybe I should discontinue my checking account 
>> number with them and go back to monthly billing/paper checks so they 
>> couldn’t clean out my checking account?
>> Have a renewable energy day
>> Mark in Roanoke
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Your mail may arrive by EV - or it may not

[Steves via EV]

Good article about postal vehicles and why they should be electric.

https://www.greatbusinessschools.org/usps-long-life-vehicle/

Biggest take aways:
 - 96% of them drive less than 40 miles a day. 
- current vehicles get 9 MPG
- 83% are urban (think pollution)

Such a perfect fit for an EV

-Steve

> On Feb 24, 2021, at 9:52 PM, Rod Hower via EV  wrote:
> 
>  Why is the partisan hack Dejoy even employed?  Why do we have a defense 
> contractor building USPS vehicles when we have a wide range of lower cost 
> manufacturers that can build them much cheaper?  A postal vehicle is the 
> perfect application for EV with start/stop routes and regen to increase 
> efficiency.  This makes absolutely no sense.  I'm hoping this decision will 
> be overturned and we can have a common sense solution for this poor 
> judgement!  I don't think this story is over yet, but if they decide to use a 
> higher percentage of gas vehicles for USPS I'll be very critical of the new 
> administration that I thought would bring a little more sense to the 
> political landscape!   
>On Wednesday, February 24, 2021, 09:13:08 PM EST, EVDL Administrator via 
> EV  wrote:  
> 
>> On 24 Feb 2021 at 11:10, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Anybody want to guess how many EVs the USPS will order?  Based on their 
>> history with EVs, I'd guess maybe 20% if we're lucky, but I'm a congenital
>> pessimist.
> 
> Good grief, it turns out that I was OPTIMISTIC.  Look here:
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-24/post-office-purchase-of-
> gasoline-truck-seems-to-defy-biden-order
> 
> https://v.gd/tc6Uqk
> 
> "The U.S. Postal Service currently plans for only 10% of its new truck fleet 
> to be electric, Postmaster General Louis DeJoy said Wednesday, angering 
> environmentalists who say the move flies in the face of a White House 
> executive order to electrify the government´s vehicles."
> 
> I have no words.  Welll, actually I do, but I don't want to get into 
> partisan politics and/or start a flame war.
> 
> I will say this, however, because I've said it many times before.  Despite 
> what Tesla fans might like to think, the EV train has left the US station 
> and it's on a one-way trip.  Its central terminal is now in Europe, with a 
> large hub in Asia.  
> 
> Actually, if Musk is as smart a businessman as he seems to think he is, 
> he'll get Tesla out of the US and set up shop where the market is.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Never underestimate the ability of humans to overestimate their 
> ability. 
> 
> -- anonymous
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt Level3 fast charging time

[Steves via EV]

I’ve had variable charge times with our bolt as well. Fast charging also can be 
extremely expensive . I don’t mind paying a surcharge for speed, but at times 
it’s been way too high.

On Texas , the key word in you paragraph is ‘regulated’. The utilities there 
are essentially unregulated. People sign up for cheap (in good times), variable 
rates that, evidently, have no maximum. Be interesting to see how the political 
winds blow there over the next year.

-Steve

> On Feb 23, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks
> When I fast charge on the Road to 80% with my Bolt EV it takes about an hour 
> to put back 25KWH.  The manual says it should be 55kwh in an hour.  Does 
> anyone know why it’s not charging at the 55KW rate?  Is there an aftermarket 
> kit to boost the KW acceptance rate?  Electrify America fast CCS chargers 
> operate to 350KW.  Also I paid 43c per kWh at Sheetz near Charlottesville Va 
> (home is 12c).  I assume they split the take between Sheetz and Electrify 
> America (VW)?
> I saw on the news that folks in Texas are paying $100s per KWH and utilities 
> cleaning out checking accounts $10k-$16k since direct link to accounts.  How 
> is this even possible to charge that much per KWh? Aren’t utilities regulated 
> for a max per kWh they can charge?  I have a direct link to my checking 
> account with my utility to pay the monthly $31 service fee (net zero solar 
> customer ) but maybe I should discontinue my checking account number with 
> them and go back to monthly billing/paper checks so they couldn’t clean out 
> my checking account?
> Have a renewable energy day 
> Mark in Roanoke
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt Level3 fast charging time

[Steves via EV]

Just to fact check on the $17000 electric bill. It really wasn’t hyped up. News 
account I read says:

Last month, his bill for all three was $660. So far, for this month’s 
electricity, he owes more than $17,000.

That’s 25x , ok so maybe he uses more in the cold , but note the bill is ‘so 
far this month’, implying it’s not a full monthly bill. 

In the same article, for someone else, it showed a bill with $2 per kWh. Don’t 
know what the normal cost is but since Texas is supposed to normally have cheap 
electricity- let’s say $0.10 - that’s 20x. 


-Steve

> On Feb 23, 2021, at 6:05 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> As a ex-Bolt Premier and a Tesla Model 3 owner, I love the Bolt and
> appreciate the technology of the Model 3 but I feel safer in the Bolt
> because of its safety set up.  Somehow, my Model 3 does not see a
> vehicle in my blind spot until it **is** in my blind spot.  How can
> Tesla can see a 1/4 mile down the road but not see a "dump truck" in
> my blind spot?  Tesla says my sensors are okay.  Chevy put lights in
> their side view mirrors.  When a vehicle enters **or is about to
> enter** my blind spot, the lights in those mirrors light up yellow.
> They were not perfect but it's blind spot detection is far above that
> of my Model 3.
> 
> With the Bolt, if I am parked between two humongous SUV's and start to
> pull out in reverse, the sensors see people and cars approaching and
> they warn me.  Not so the Model 3.  If I want to see what is behind me
> in the Model 3, I can press the rear view camera button and it takes
> up a lot of the touch screen making it difficult to do other things
> until the camera is turned off.  With the Bolt, the rear view camera
> signal is fed to the rear view mirror.  Once I discovered that, I
> never went back to the rear view mirror as a plain rear view mirror.
> 
> My son was in need of a commuter car so I "sold" him the Bolt.  It's a
> great commuter car and he saves a lot by not buying gasoline but road
> trips are not as convenient as you are finding out.  There are
> Electrify America stations that he can recharge at toward the end of
> the week.  He's Level 1 at home.  With respect to the Bolt, the range,
> recharge times, and recharge stations are minor league compared to the
> Tesla cars and network.  He pays more for electricity.
> 
> In some ways, I think the price of a Tesla hides the cost of the
> recharging and software updating systems.  I paid about $0.23/kwhr in
> an area where home rates
> are about $0.11/kwhr but I don't use them hardly at all.  I know my
> son pays more. The Supercharger network is well worth that price.  If
> I want to take a trip, it's got to be in the Tesla just for the range
> and recharge times along with the spacing of the Supercharger network.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 11:42 AM Mark Hanson via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi folks
>> When I fast charge on the Road to 80% with my Bolt EV it takes about an hour 
>> to put back 25KWH.  The manual says it should be 55kwh in an hour.  Does 
>> anyone know why it’s not charging at the 55KW rate?  Is there an aftermarket 
>> kit to boost the KW acceptance rate?  Electrify America fast CCS chargers 
>> operate to 350KW.  Also I paid 43c per kWh at Sheetz near Charlottesville Va 
>> (home is 12c).  I assume they split the take between Sheetz and Electrify 
>> America (VW)?
>> I saw on the news that folks in Texas are paying $100s per KWH and utilities 
>> cleaning out checking accounts $10k-$16k since direct link to accounts.  How 
>> is this even possible to charge that much per KWh? Aren’t utilities 
>> regulated for a max per kWh they can charge?  I have a direct link to my 
>> checking account with my utility to pay the monthly $31 service fee (net 
>> zero solar customer ) but maybe I should discontinue my checking account 
>> number with them and go back to monthly billing/paper checks so they 
>> couldn’t clean out my checking account?
>> Have a renewable energy day
>> Mark in Roanoke
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt Level3 fast charging time

[Steves via EV]

The thing that most impresses me about Tesla is the charging infrastructure. A 
good many times I take my Volt or Bolt and try to charge , the charger is in 
use or broken. Or it’s some charger i haven’t signed up for.   And, as I’ve 
stated, when you try to fast charge the price is all over the place. Then I go 
by a Sheets and see 10 Tesla chargers, mostly unoccupied. I’m jealous.   I 
understand newer Teslas pay to charge at their chargers. What is the rate and 
what is the experience? I wish they would include one or two chargers for the 
rest of us. I’m willing to pay- I just want the consistency in price and 
availability.

-Steve

> On Feb 23, 2021, at 1:43 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Peter for the thoughtful reply.  I was plugged into a 350Kw Electrify 
> America Level3 charger on the way to the Tesla dealership in Richmond at 34F 
> degrees, charged from about 40% to 80% (can’t fast charge past 80%), took 
> about an hour since like you mentioned the Bolt tapers down (requests current 
> limit from the 480v 3phase charger) from 50KW ish to 25kw.  So most of my 
> charging was done at the lower rate, hence the long charge time.  After 
> looking at a bunch of Tesla S 3 X Y (mostly Ys looking at for towing the 
> 1480lb ski boat), I came back to the same Sheetz to spend another hour for 
> another 25KWH.  Tesla’s charge completely in about 15 minutes at 150KW the 
> salesman said.  If it weren’t $50K with no fed incentives , I’d buy one.  The 
> Bolt was $30k new ($40k- $10k Covid discount).  Shelor in Christiansburg is 
> selling 21’ models now at $26K (after the Covid discount). 
> Stay Charged
> Mark
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 23, 2021, at 11:38 AM, e...@vanderwal.us wrote:
>> 
>> Not sure where you you read that, but I'm betting it said 55kw and not 
>> 55kwh.
>> 
>> The bolt can charge at up to 55kw (assuming you are plugged into at least an 
>> 80kw DC fast charger) but it will only charge at that rate until the battery 
>> gets to 55% SOC, then it drops down to 35kw until it hits 70% SOC, where it 
>> drops down to 25 kw until it hits 85% SOC, 15kw until 95% and 10kw until 100%
>> 
>> So if you push the car into the charging spot with a completely empty 
>> battery, you can charge at 55kw for about 37 minutes before the charge rate 
>> drops to 35kw, and another 15-16 minutes before it drops to 25kw, etc.
>> 
>> The maximum you can get into the pack in 1 hour is about 45kwh, and that is 
>> only if you start with a completely empty pack and are using a charger rated 
>> for 80kw or higher.
>> Oh yeah, temperature also effects charge rate, charging can slow down if the 
>> temperature is very high or very low.
>> 
>> Note: you need a charger rated for 80kw because chargers are rated for 
>> different voltages than most EVs use.
>> Most fast chargers are rated for charging a 500V pack or higher. So an 80kw 
>> charger is rated for a maximum of 160 amps at up to 500V. You don't get more 
>> current if using a lower voltage.
>> 
>> The Bolt's battery pack is only 350-360V and it can only charge at a max of 
>> 155 Amps (~55kw) but as I said above it will only do that up to 55% SOC.
>> If you plug into a 50kw fast charger (500V @ 100 amps) you will only get 
>> 35kw charging even if the battery is below 55% SOC.
>> If you plug into a 35kw fast charger you will only get 24-25 kwh.
>> 
>> So depending on the SOC you start at and the rating on the DC fast charger, 
>> you could end up with only 25kwh after 1 hour.
>> I.e. if you plug into a 35kw charger (25kw effective charge rate) you will 
>> get exactly 25kwh after 1 hour unless you go above 85% SOC.  The majority of 
>> the older DC fast chargers were rated for 35kw.
>> 
>> February 23, 2021 6:05 AM, "Mark Hanson via EV"  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi folks
>> When I fast charge on the Road to 80% with my Bolt EV it takes about an hour 
>> to put back 25KWH. The
>> manual says it should be 55kwh in an hour. Does anyone know why it’s not 
>> charging at the 55KW rate?
>> Is there an aftermarket kit to boost the KW acceptance rate? Electrify 
>> America fast CCS chargers
>> operate to 350KW. Also I paid 43c per kWh at Sheetz near Charlottesville Va 
>> (home is 12c). I assume
>> they split the take between Sheetz and Electrify America (VW)?
>> I saw on the news that folks in Texas are paying $100s per KWH and utilities 
>> cleaning out checking
>> accounts $10k-$16k since direct link to accounts. How is this even possible 
>> to charge that much per
>> KWh? Aren’t utilities regulated for a max per kWh they can charge? I have a 
>> direct link to my
>> checking account with my utility to pay the monthly $31 service fee (net 
>> zero solar customer ) but
>> maybe I should discontinue my checking account number with them and go back 
>> to monthly
>> billing/paper checks so they couldn’t clean out my checking account?
>> Have a renewable energy day 
>> Mark in Roanoke
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 

Re: [EVDL] DC/DC converter at Electronic Goldmine

[Steves via EV]

Hey Lee,

Do you know if these can be used on a series string? I’m thinking 3 of these on 
my ElecTrak 36v pack.

-Steve

> On Feb 12, 2021, at 2:31 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> For those hardy hackers still out there building/converting their own EVs, 
> Electronic Goldmine  is selling the IOTA DLS-30 battery 
> charger/converter for $22.95. They are used, but I bought one and it worked 
> and looks like new. Their stock# G25029.
> 
> 
> 
> 108-132 vac input, 13.6vdc 0-30a output. These are intended to keep a 12v 
> battery on "float" charge for boats, RVs, etc. while they are idle.
> 
> Many people have used these a DC/DC converters for their EVs, since the input 
> actually works on DC as well as AC. However, read the notes on the EVDL files 
> on the limitations of using it this way (needs 150-180vdc, no input fuse, no 
> moisture protection, parts not mounted sturdy enough for automotive shock and 
> vibration, etc).
> 
> Lee Hart
> -- 
> In the mood for a great New Year's story? Here is my
> abridged version of Charles Dickens classic "The Chimes"
> 
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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Re: [EVDL] DC/DC converter at Electronic Goldmine

[Steves via EV]

I checked out the info video on the Iota and they can be attached in series or 
parallel. And the ‘smart module’ does make it a 4 stage charger and is only 
$20. 

Worth trying out. Of course I found a few other goodies I ‘needed’ on the 
Goldmine site

-Steve

> On Feb 12, 2021, at 7:37 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>>> I'm thinking 3 of these on my ElecTrak 36v pack
>> While it's not a strict apples-to-apples comparison, I use a 45 amp Todd 
>> "Power Source" switching power supply as the on-board charger on my E20 ET. 
>> The three 15 amp internal modules were changed from parallel to series 
>> connection. No problems after fifteen years of operation.
> 
> Todd was an earlier version. I think Iota was formed from ex-Todd employees, 
> if I remember correctly.
> 
>> Note that a 13.6 volt output per power supply will only result in a nominal 
>> output voltage of 40.8, which isn't ultimately going to be healthy for the 
>> batteries (depending on your cell chemistry).
> 
> The Iota has a telephone jack with a jumper wire plugged into it. The jumper 
> sets the output to 13.6v (and there's a trimpot inside, if you want to tweak 
> it).
> 
> If you unplug that jumper, the voltage goes up to 14.7v. That would more 
> fully charge a lead-acid battery. But it is too high to leave it on this 
> voltage indefinitely. The Iota definitely does not shut off by itself!
> 
> Iota made a "Smart" module that plugged into this jack. Basically, it opened 
> the jumper to charge to 14.7v. After about an hour at 14.7v, it shorted the 
> jumper again to drop to the safe 13.6v "float" voltage.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> In the mood for a great New Year's story? Here is my
> abridged version of Charles Dickens classic "The Chimes"
> 
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers? =Ryobi variable speed?

[Steves via EV]

I was going to suggest an ET but they are showing their age. This summer , so 
far, I rebuilt a mower motor, refurbished the mower deck, replaced two mower 
blades, replaced a main contactor, , etc. noticed yesterday the main cutoff 
switch is running hot and it seems to run high current in reverse, so more to 
do….
But still a good machine .
-Steve

> On Aug 16, 2021, at 3:47 PM, jim via EV  wrote:
> 
> A good friend has a Ryobi electric riding mower and his wife has been using 
> it for over 3 years.  Battery capacity is noticeably less than when new (but 
> she mows until the machine slows down considerably).  They don't like the 
> "cruise control" on their hilly yard as there is no regenerative braking so 
> it speeds up going downhill.  The ride is very rough on their rough yard, 
> too, and he found features like the charging for I-phone to be frivolous.  
> But he seems fairly happy with the machine otherwise, especially since his 
> wife likes to use it.Personally, I like my E-15 GE tractor.  I replaced the 
> controls with newer solid state parts but still spend a lot of time on 
> maintenance and repairs, mostly mower motor bearings, leaky tires, and other 
> things that aren't surprising on a machine approaching 50 years old.  I can 
> mow a couple of acres of rough lawn and orchard on my 5 year old golf cart 
> batteries, and tow pretty good sized loads on trailers when I need to.
> Jim, in Menomonie, WI
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Re: [EVDL] GM extends recall to cover all Chevy Bolts due to fire risk | WTOP

[Steves via EV]

Yeah I think our notice came today. Glad they are dealing with it .

-Steve

> On Aug 20, 2021, at 9:49 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi folks
> I’ve got a 2020 Bolt, looks like I’m included in all Chevy Bolts but only 10 
> fires in 100% charged out of >200k seems smaller than gas car fires to me.  I 
> always charge my Leaf, Bolt, Tesla to 80% unless going on a long trip and 
> towing the H20 ski boat.  
> Have a renewable energy day 
> Mark
> https://wtop.com/recalls/2021/08/gm-extends-recall-to-cover-all-chevy-bolts-due-to-fire-risk/
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Steves via EV]

I’m assuming that lead acid is cheaper than comparable lithium. In a riding 
mower, weight is of little concern, so lead is much more cost effective. If the 
mower has any accessories such as a blade, then the added weight is an 
advantage - my ElecTrak is very heavy and so has lots of traction. 

You will enjoy the quiet mowing and not fooling with another ICE. 

I tell my friends : 
The complexity of your life is directly proportional to how many gas engines 
you own, 2 strokes count double. 
No one has ever argued against.

-Steve

> On Aug 15, 2021, at 4:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
> small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
> around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
> of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
> feet without needing to sit.
> 
> I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
> 56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
> lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
> comfortable with lead acid probably.?
> 
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Steves via EV]

The units are pre charged for a certain amount of pipe length. You still need 
to evacuate the pipes before opening up the system so you need an HVAC person .

-Steve

> On Dec 3, 2021, at 7:00 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 3 Dec 2021 at 16:59, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> 
>> How do you do the freon by DIY?
> 
> From what I've read, illegally.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> There is a war between the rich and poor,
> A war between the man and the woman.
> There is a war between the left and right,
> A war between the black and white,
> A war between the odd and the even.
> There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
> And the ones who say there isn't.
> Why don't you come on back to the war, pick up your tiny burden.
> Why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get even.
> 
>-- Leonard Cohen
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Re: [EVDL] What type of magic is this nut and where to get a tool for it?

[Steves via EV]

I noticed too that the dimples cannot be directly engaged from above ( without 
done kind of spring loaded device). I wonder if it takes some kind of pin 
wrench?

-Steve

> On Nov 17, 2021, at 5:47 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Others have suggested this secure wheel nut also, the differences are:
> The NiCd cell nuts have 5 dimples equidistant (every 72 deg one
> dimple) and the dimples are ball shaped, not cylinder. In fact, the
> balls that engage the dimples will need to be on springs to allow them
> to push in, as the top wall of the dimple curves back to seat more
> than half-sphere, allowing a strong engagement of the 5 balls in the
> dimples once fully seated as the side to side will hit the flat side
> of the dimple and have no resulting force to push the ball back into
> the tool, only when lifting/lowering the tool on the nut.
> Hope this clarifies:
> - nut is half-dome shaped
> - 5 equidistant dimples more than half-sphere deep to engage the tool
> onto the nut.
> Now just to find the tool...
> Oh and the original owner who installed the pack has moved out of the
> area and I have precisely one old email address that has not bounced
> yet.
> And the vehicle owner of the past 6 or so years is not an EV'er and
> just had it parked in his backyard after buying it.
> Cor.
> 
>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:28 PM David Murphy via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I can’t say this is exactly the same, but it looks quite similar
>> https://www.kchilites.com/kc-lkz-m8-1-25-light-lock-security-nut-set-7222.html
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 2:14 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> .Alternatively, you can make careful measurements, CAD up a mating tool,
>>> .3D print it in plastic to check the fit and to make refinements in the
>>> .CAD model, and then have it 3D printed in metal. There are tons of
>>> fturn-around 3D printing houses on-line. http://Www.ShapeWays.com
>>> 
>>> There is 3d imaging that will directly drop into a cad program. Not sure
>>> where you would go but maybe and advanced machine shop? Lawrence Rhodes
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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[EVDL] Electric Circuit charging in Canada

[Steves via EV]

I was in Canada last week and it makes me ashamed to be a US citizen from the 
standpoint of electric charging infrastructure. My experience is all in Quebec 
province , so I don’t know how the rest of Canada is, but they have a 
centralized system ‘Electric Circuit’ that is incredible. Their app is 
fantastic and stations are everywhere, even small towns. I can always find an 
open station. Best of all , I don’t think I have ever run across a broken 
station. It’s easy to use too. You don’t need six different apps or cards since 
it’s one system. I think that pricing may vary somewhat based on local but is 
very reasonable. When there is a problem (a station was blocked by a non 
charging EV) they responded to my complaint .

We live in northern Virginia and my wife travels to Richmond periodically, 
about 125 miles. So she would need to charge the Bolt at some point. This is a 
very well traveled route - mostly on 95, but it’s amazing how few charging 
stations there are, and how many are non functional. Pricing is all over the 
place, IF you are registered to the particular system you want to connect to.

 I’d say one of the best selling points of a Tesla is their reliable and 
widespread network. It’s nice to see a similar system for the rest of us 
functioning somewhere, just wish it was here.

-Steve
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Re: [EVDL] Electric Circuit charging in Canada

[Steves via EV]

Oh, and in Montreal most people live in triplexes- basically picture row houses 
divided into three apartments- one per floor. A tough charging scenario. So 
they put charging stations throughout the neighborhood. My daughter has two 
charging stations with two blocks of her place. 

-Steve

> On Nov 18, 2021, at 5:21 AM, Steves via EV  wrote:
> 
> I was in Canada last week and it makes me ashamed to be a US citizen from 
> the standpoint of electric charging infrastructure. My experience is all in 
> Quebec province , so I don’t know how the rest of Canada is, but they have a 
> centralized system ‘Electric Circuit’ that is incredible. Their app is 
> fantastic and stations are everywhere, even small towns. I can always find an 
> open station. Best of all , I don’t think I have ever run across a broken 
> station. It’s easy to use too. You don’t need six different apps or cards 
> since it’s one system. I think that pricing may vary somewhat based on local 
> but is very reasonable. When there is a problem (a station was blocked by a 
> non charging EV) they responded to my complaint .
> 
> We live in northern Virginia and my wife travels to Richmond periodically, 
> about 125 miles. So she would need to charge the Bolt at some point. This is 
> a very well traveled route - mostly on 95, but it’s amazing how few charging 
> stations there are, and how many are non functional. Pricing is all over the 
> place, IF you are registered to the particular system you want to connect to.
> 
> I’d say one of the best selling points of a Tesla is their reliable and 
> widespread network. It’s nice to see a similar system for the rest of us 
> functioning somewhere, just wish it was here.
> 
> -Steve

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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Steves via EV]

Tesla has the infrastructure there already. Why not piggyback onto their 
network. Pay Tesla to add a few chargers for other cars at each of their 
stations. Be relatively cheap that way. And yes it’s promoting a charging 
monopoly, but they do have a great system. 

-Steve

> On Feb 12, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Weren’t the cost of those chargers incorporated into the purchase price of 
> the vehicles?
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 12, 2022, at 6:19 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they’re gonna put 
>> chargers in for all the other companies  by the way I paid $200 a year tax 
>> on my electric vehicle in Alabama
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, February 11, 2022, 5:16 PM, jamie via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A couple of relevant data points:
>> 
>> -Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV 
>> manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over. 
>> Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others can 
>> catch up, as their new models arrive.
>> 
>> -The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels 
>> pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.
>> 
>> As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide 
>> transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American 
>> competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that 
>> each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have 
>> individual support or direct use by every single person.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>>  -Jamie
>> 
>> 
>> 
 On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
>>> 
 On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
 The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
 people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait 
 for
 mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
 businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging 
 stations
 out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
> 
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[EVDL] 0-62mph under 1 sec. Of course it’s electric !

[Steves via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt EV "Final Recall Remedy"

[Steves via EV]

Our 2019 got the new battery - no fuss. You may need to needle them. At one 
point our Bolt wouldn’t talk to fast chargers and my wife got stuck on a trip 
and had to stay overnight. She kept after them and they finally reimbursed at 
least some of her expenses. 

-Steve

> On Sep 25, 2023, at 10:33 AM, Mark E. Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> I got a letter from Chevy 6/15/23, GM posted as "Final Recall Remedy" for my
> 2020 Bolt with 47K miles on it.
> 
> 
> 
> It states that instead of replacing the battery (thought that *was* the
> final recall remedy), that they're just "updating" the software to *reduce*
> my range to 80% for 6200 miles.  If no fault is found, then it says the
> software will bump the range back up to 100% hopefully.  
> 
> 
> 
> I originally thought they were supposed to replace the battery - but this
> sounds like a workaround.  I've been ignoring their various urgent
> "important safety racall" notices I've been getting periodically as a ploy
> to *reduce* my range.  Is there a method to actually get a battery
> replacement - like they were supposed to do originally?  Otherwise I'm *not*
> taking it in to get my range reduced.
> 
> 
> 
> They still didn't fix the display or operators manual to tell customers to
> only charge to 80% for *local* trips like *all* other EV manufacturers have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a renewable energy day,
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Mark E. Hanson
> 
> 184 Vista Lane
> 
> Fincastle, VA 24090
> 
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> 
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> 
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> 
> UL Certified PV Installer
> 
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 
> 
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 
> 
> 
>  75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Steves via EV]

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[EVDL] EV charging v crypto mining

[Steves via EV]

We hear often how EV charging will overtax our electric grid. I got to 
wondering how that compares to crypto mining. I found one source, Market Source 
which said:

With only 2 million EVs on the road, EVs would consume approximately 7.9 
billion kWh annually or less than 1% of the US electric production of 3,980 
billion kWh. That seems relatively small in comparison to data centers 
consuming roughly 73 billion kWh or crypto-mining including Bitcoin at 91 
billion kWh.

That’s incredible- even more so that crypto mining uses more power than data 
centers. 

Steve
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging v crypto mining

[Steves via EV]

Thanks for doing a sanity check on the numbers. I was surprised at how hard it 
was to find good numbers on total kWh for charging and crypto mining. Not that 
I spent a lot of time on it, but still. When I first searched I found some 
numbers that needed a bit of juggling, and the results seemed incredibly wrong 
so I dropped it. I thought about it again yesterday and modified my search and 
found the quote I sent. It was similar to my other estimate, so I figured it 
must be reasonably correct. 

My understanding is that for crypto like bitcoin, that it gets harder to mine 
future ‘coins’ so it will just get worse.

I’m somewhat agnostic on crypto - Freakonomics has a good series on it- but the 
energy use is appalling. 

In any case, and to stay on topic, it’s a good comparison to bring up next time 
someone argues that EV charging will bring down the grid.

-Steve

> On Jul 19, 2022, at 12:58 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 18 Jul 2022 at 22:56, Steves via EV wrote:
> 
>> With only 2 million EVs on the road, EVs would consume approximately 7.9
>> billion kWh annually or less than 1% of the US electric production of 3,980
>> billion kWh. That seems relatively small in comparison to data centers
>> consuming roughly 73 billion kWh or crypto-mining including Bitcoin at 91
>> billion kWh.
> 
> That's interesting (and appalling) information.  
> 
> I've read some astronomical worldwide amount for cryptocurrencies, and just 
> checked. It's 110 terawatt hours per year, *just for Bitcoin*.  That's about 
> as much as the entire country of Sweden uses.  
> 
> Not to offend anybody here who's into such things, but I for one welcome 
> declines in value for crytocurrencies.  It reduces the energy use and carbon 
> release, which is of benefit to us all.  It also might eventually make it 
> possible to buy a reasonably-priced high performance computer graphics card 
> again, not that I've ever needed such a critter.
> 
> Sources differ, but I see 2021 US EV sales numbers ranging from 471,000 to 
> 608,000.  One source says that as of 2020, 1.4 million EVs had been sold 
> here.  So it looks like your 2 million figure is about right for the moment.
> 
> I used 15,000 miles per year and 350 wh/mi to get a typical EV use of 5250 
> kwh each per year.  Two million EVs of that type would use 10,500,000,000 
> kwh (10.5 billion) - more than the figure you quote, but within shouting 
> distance.
> 
> So we could add 700% more EVs to the US vehicle mix and STILL be using less 
> electricity for them than cryptocurrency "mining" uses in this country 
> alone.
> 
> Something to think about.
> 
> One thing to consider is that EV charging tends to pool in the overnight 
> hours, so that concentrates the load in those hours.  However, that also 
> happens to be when aircon and business loads are lower.
> 
> I'm a long way from an engineering or power generation expert, but I don't 
> see a problem, unless the person firehosing the statistics is an oilhead 
> dedicated to sowing FUD to keep their profits rolling in - or a politician 
> pandering to reactionary anti-EV yahoos.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
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> Where they burn books, they will eventually burn people.
> 
>   -- Heinrich Heine
> 
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Steves via EV]

I agree - I can’t imagine a huge difference between cars, unless perhaps it is 
one of the newer cars that is designed to be low c02 in manufacturing and 
highly recyclable. Even then I wonder how much better they are. 

Let’s face it, the only ‘green’ car is the one that is not built. 

-Steve

> On Jan 5, 2023, at 2:52 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Where do you think these idiots get their information about how much energy 
> it takes to build a car...or the "carbon footprint"?   
> 
> If you are actually trying to measure "energy" you need to be able to isolate 
> what you are actually measuring.
> 
> Where do you draw the line about how much energy it takes to build a car?   
> Is it the energy consumption of a factory?  What about the energy consumption 
> of the factories of the suppliers who make the 
> parts...tires...glass..plastic, the hoses, the clamps,   If a factory buys 
> parts from a supplier or makes them in house, how does that enter into the 
> equations?   Then if you pay a worker at your factory, and the worker spends 
> his wages driving monster trucksfor fun on weekends and goes through 100 
> gallons of gas, or a different worker spends the weekend readinga book...does 
> that affect the "carbon  footprint"?
> 
> And then what about energy needed for the workers to get to and from work?  
> How about the energy needed to run the streetlights on the road they use to 
> get to work?  How about the energy needed to heat the homes of the people who 
> mine the raw materials?   How about the energy to make the food to feed the 
> workers?   How about the energy used by the teachers?  The schools and 
> universities?  The asphalt for the roads?
> 
> Call me cynical but my guess is these people who claim to analyze carbon 
> footprints are 99% full of hot air.They don't actually go out an measure 
> anything, they just repeat something they read or heard, (and often the most 
> provocative things tend to get repeated)  which leads to an endless repeating 
> cycle of baloney by people who crave endless attention.
> 
> I don't claim to have measured anything, but my common sense says an EV is a 
> car and and ICE is a car and that my "guess" is that it is highly likely that 
> the energy required to make them is (or could be) pretty damn comparable. 
> By weight and volume the EV and the ICE are more alike than different.   
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   On Thursday, January 5, 2023, 12:20:43 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
>  wrote:  
> 
> I am trying to understand if Zeihan has an agenda. His expertise is
> understanding geography and demographics. Knowing what ingredients go into
> making the world go around, and details like, what does it take to make the
> unique aluminum alloy that Tesla has crafted to make body parts that are
> not steel. The claim is that this is significant and the carbon
> footprint of an ICE made from steel is significantly better.
> 
> Regarding the inputs to EVs, certainly the availability of lithium is not
> good. Nor is it good for cobalt, or nickel.  I have spent some time
> thinking about the battery business, even had conversations with Jeff Dahn
> and Aaron Cross (the Tesla cell life engineer). The time and commitment to
> mine and process more of these material inputs could be a serious
> impediment to EV growth. Regarding LiFePO, we have enough phosphate for
> current use like fertilizer for crops. It takes years to build and start
> operating a phosphate mine. If LiFePO is the future, we do not have a ready
> supply.
> 
> I posted so maybe I could get some wisdom that is not anecdotal. Does
> anyone know about the supply side of Li batteries? In 2013 when I was
> studying this topic, it did not look like a sure thing.  Do we know what
> sort of carbon cost is built into them? Only JB Straubel is working the
> recycling angle. How is that going?
> 
> At this moment in time, EV production is nowhere near the scale necessary
> to make headway reducing carbon in the atmosphere. It could be we are years
> or decades from solving this. That is the gist of Zeihan's assertion. Now
> that we are getting shale oil in North America, that cost is way less for
> us in the US. That alone can damage the transition to EVs from ICE.
> 
> I think there is a lot of guesswork being presented to the effect that EVs
> are going to be with us soon, en masse.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 1:59 AM Steves via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Haven’t read the article, but perhaps he assumes virgin aluminum, which is
>> very energy intensive. However even if virgin aluminum is used, 90% of big
>> scrap (like car) aluminum is recycled, so that energy is essentially
>> reclaimed ou

Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Steves via EV]

Well then he’s wrong about solar panels. I went to a talk years back by Steven 
Chu who had headed up the department of Energy. Many interesting, candid, 
anecdotes, but, specifically, on PV he said how everyone was complaining that 
China was competing with us on panels due to low labor costs in panel assembly. 
However he visited one of their new plants and it was almost totally automated. 
Very few employees. China was competing by advancing manufacturing technology. 
Long term goals and investment. 

-Steve

> On Jan 5, 2023, at 7:30 PM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> He's definitely interesting to listen to but keep in mind that he is
> selling a book or 3. His analysis seems a bit simplistic but makes for
> great sound bites.
> 
> In one video he claims solar panels will get more expensive due to labor
> cost increasing, and according to him you just can't automate panel
> production. Five minutes of research will show you how wrong that is.
> (There are other factors that might drive panel cost up though)
> 
> He's not wrong that EVs use more energy to build but he does seem to blow
> that aspect out of proportion. Plenty of reputable research has shown that
> EVs have lower emissions over the life of the car, including production.
> 
> The resource consumption is a problem and for now EVs may remain a luxury
> good and will definitely not save us from global warming. We can't consume
> our way out of it.
> 
> I don't detect any strong political bias except a hard-on for anyone with
> an aggressive foreign policy. His target audience seems to be rather right
> leaning and US centric though.
> 
> While largely data driven his conclusions lean towards oil and gas being
> the future and green tech being a silly distraction. He barely mentions
> global warming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023, 12:31 PM Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> That subject is a bit of a troll, but I would like to have some
>> conversation about whether EVs really make green sense or even profitable
>> manufacturing sense.
>> 
>> This is a short YouTube video by Peter Zeihan. Entitled
>> EV's Not-so-little Dirty Secret(s)
>> https://youtu.be/Qf85EuQKWeQ
>> or search on YouTube for the title
>> 
>> I hate it that on many points he is correct, but some others are not, but
>> not necessarily in a good way.
>> 
>> PZ is a demographer and geographer. He says that globalization (which was
>> enabled by the US Naval presence in the shipping lanes since WWII) has
>> ceased to exist and a lot of unsuccessful geographies are at the tipping
>> point of big failure. Also Russia is dying, and China is even worse off.
>> 10% of the world's calories came from Ukraine. Russia is a major source of
>> big ag fertilizers. In a year we will be talking about global famine like
>> we have not seen if the geopols are right.
>> 
>> Anyway he is worth listening to.
>> 
>> Regarding green tech, it is one of many tech that are dependent on
>> globalization and in many ways on oil production. There is a lot to say
>> which I won't try to explain. If you want to hear educated guesses about
>> the next decades with only a fraction of manufactured production worldwide,
>> check out Zeihan or the other geopoliticians out there.
>> 
>> Regarding EVs, and Tesla in particular, PZ has a very good grip on where
>> the material inputs come from, how long, and what it takes to ramp up
>> production of things like new production of nickel, cobalt, neon, lithium,
>> zinc, semiconductors, the energy cost for special aluminum for bodywork,
>> and so on, and on, and on. It is not good. The carbon footprint of Teslas
>> is not good when you correctly factor in the manufacturing footprint. He
>> also notes that they are still a luxury car that is very often not the
>> primary vehicle, but is instead a third or even forth car. That makes for a
>> very long payback period before EVs start to look C neutral. He makes a
>> good point that the carbon side of this only really works for light duty
>> vehicles. The Ford eF150 is what, $90k?
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Michael E. Ross
>> (919) 585-6737  Land
>> (919) 901-2805 Cell and
>> Text
>> (919) 576-0824 
>>  Tablet, Google Phone
>> and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

[Steves via EV]

Haven’t read the article, but perhaps he assumes virgin aluminum, which is very 
energy intensive. However even if virgin aluminum is used, 90% of big scrap 
(like car) aluminum is recycled, so that energy is essentially reclaimed out 
the back end. 

One has to read this kind of stuff very carefully. My dad was a staunch 
conservative and listened religiously to Rush Limbaugh. RL was ranting one day 
about laws to give up regular lightbulbs for CFLs, and if you broke a CFL your 
house became a hazmat area due the (minuscule) amount of mercury. I had to 
explain that since most of our energy comes from coal, and coal has mercury, 
that regular bulbs, being so inefficient, cause much more mercury to be spewed 
into the atmosphere over the bulbs lifetime. 

That’s why I haven’t bothered reading the article. Beware of people with 
agendas. 

-Steve

> On Jan 4, 2023, at 11:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> Zeihan says ICE looks a lot better and leans on the aluminum in the Tesla
> bodywork. I wonder about this, but don't know how to evaluate it.
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 4:36 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Just one of the many issues to point out:
>> 
>>> On 1/4/2023 12:29 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>>> The carbon footprint of Teslas
>>> is not good when you correctly factor in the manufacturing footprint.
>> 
>> 
>> Do the same calcs for a Gas car - which makes the EV look far better.
>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> -- 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

[Steves via EV]

I think Tesla started off right. Sell a very expensive high performance EV. It 
let them figure things out on the way and provided good profit margins at low 
volumes. BUT they did indicate the long goal was affordable EVs and they 
touched that goal briefly before dropping ‘basic’ models in favor of higher 
profit ones. I get it but it is disappointing. I think the way Twitter is being 
run at the moment makes me realize that Musk us not a savvy businessman. 
Perhaps he thought he could truly build affordable EVs but really didn’t plan 
well. Good side is it made GM and others take notice and get serious about the 
EV market so we have good,  affordable EVs now, just not from Tesla. 

-Steve

> On Dec 11, 2022, at 12:46 PM, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 12/11/2022 9:32 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
>> John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
>>> So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low profit 
>>> margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow production at 
>>> a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles?
>> 
>> Henry Ford did. So did VW.
>> 
>> Success can be found by selling a very small number of very expensive 
>> vehicles... or a very large number of inexpensive vehicles. Which one is 
>> likely to put the world on (EV) wheels?
> 
> So, why isn't the Nissan Leaf outselling Teslas?
> It's a low-cost EV.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt battery recall

[Steves via EV]

Our 2019 was done several months ago in northern VA

-Steve

> On Dec 6, 2022, at 4:17 PM, Bob Bath via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have a 2020 and Jim sigel (grants pass) and Airport Chevy (Medford) won’t 
> give me the time of day until more 2017s etc are done. I feel your pain. 
> 
> Sincerely, 
> Bob Bath
> 541.761.0838
> 
> Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 57 y.o. 
> vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
> cluelessness. 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 6, 2022, at 12:12 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi folks
>> I bought a new Chevy Bolt August 2020 (now has about 40k miles) and a year 
>> ago got a letter from Shelor Chevy saying they were going to replace the 
>> battery, now just crickets (dealer doesn’t know anything) Does any Bolt 
>> folks know if they just replaced the 2017s and not the newer cars?  The 
>> range has dropped from 260 to about 220 in warm weather. I noticed that 
>> Chevy is the only one that doesn’t say to charge to 80% for local trips , 
>> probably why they’ve had some 100% charging fires (clueless owners charging 
>> hot to 100% daily). 
>> Have a renewable energy Christmas 
>> Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] EV Highway Use Fee alternative (Virginia)

[Steves via EV]

I haven’t.  I’d probably go over with mileage anyway. Plus it would just remind 
me all the time how stupid the whole EV tax thing is. 

I’m in northern VA where we have to get emissions inspections since car 
pollution is such a problem. Yet now I’m being penalized with an EV tax for 
trying to help out! Plus they tax hybrids. Hybrids get all their energy 
ultimately from gas, for which they already pay tax. So we are being penalized 
for being efficient. So why don’t they give  rebates to  gas guzzlers? 

Ugh don’t get me started ….

-Steve

> On Dec 15, 2022, at 9:16 PM, Mark E. Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone fooled with this?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/general/#va_mileage_choice.asp 
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious if you think if it's worth the fuss, to get a vehicle
> monitoring position/odometer GPS through Emovis, download SmartPhone app etc
> to save a few bucks on the VA EV tax (vs the fixed fee <11.6K miles).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a renewable energy day,
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Mark E. Hanson
> 
> 184 Vista Lane
> 
> Fincastle, VA 24090
> 
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> 
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> 
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org   (See Project Gallery)
> 
> UL Certified PV Installer
> 
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh   
> 
> REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 
> 
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>  75b8d/signature> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Steves via EV]

Many highly gifted people are flawed (well aren’t we all?). We do need to 
balance their contributions against their faults. 

Consumer choice is an excellent method of ‘voting’ to encourage productive 
behavior and discouraging harmful behavior. I am turned off from buying a Tesla 
due to the way he treats his employees. 

-Steve

> On Dec 18, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
>>> obvious skills and MANY successes...
> 
>> My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
>> upon his (miss) behavior...
> 
> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our society 
> today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book "The Demon 
> Haunted World" 
> 
> 
> Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the man, 
> rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves 
> credit for accomplished great things.
> 
> If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd have 
> ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford (anti-semite 
> and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a mile 
> away and have his shoes."
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: "The end of the internal combustion engine" via China

[Steves via EV]

I was also a bit perplexed and disappointed about the Bolt news. We own one and 
really like it. I read they will retool that plant to make SUVs or pickups as I 
recall. Along with Ford they seem to be killing the sedan.  We just traded our 
Volt in and that model was axed last year. I really liked that car. 

The reason they gave for killing the bolt is the batteries are older chemistry 
and for some reason they can’t seem to figure out how to update that. Sounds 
tenuous to me. I imagine the real reason is profit margins. It’s so much easier 
to sell big cars with naturally high margins than figure out how to make 
smaller cars efficiently.

I also do not like the personality of Musk, but I do admire the trajectory of 
Tesla. I guess need to separate the two entities in my mind. It may be the only 
way forward for EVs or even the sedan.


-Steve

> On Apr 30, 2023, at 11:13 PM, Tom Hudson via EV  wrote:
> 
> We started our EV journey with our Solectria Force in 1997, and after 
> retiring our Force after 21 (!) years (due to rust; all the EV components 
> work like new and are in storage) we drive a Tesla Model 3. After all those 
> years of driving one of the few EVs in the state of Wisconsin, it's kind of 
> surreal to be driving through our little city of 11,000 and seeing multiple 
> Model Ys (and Model 3s) driving around or parked in driveways. Seeing the 
> recent sales numbers on Model Ys, it does look like Musk's prediction will be 
> spot-on. It's just awesome to see EVs becoming mainstream.
> 
> Our Saturday morning ritual here is to watch the Electrek podcast on YouTube 
> while having breakfast. This week they mentioned that GM is killing the Bolt, 
> which is their most popular EV. We paused the video and talked a bit about 
> how GM totally screwed the pooch when they killed the EV-1 (which we rented 
> and drove in California back in 1999 or so) -- they could absolutely have 
> OWNED the EV market if they had kept going. Now an upstart like Tesla is 
> wiping up the floor with them because they didn't have any foresight or a 
> vision of a future beyond ICE. And Toyota has been fighting the inevitable 
> future, trying to kill EV incentives. And Ford is making an attempt to move 
> forward, but getting NEGATIVE 40 percent margins on their EVs.  All the big 
> auto industry players should have seen the writing on the wall, but kept 
> their blinders on and now they're scrambling to catch up -- they never set up 
> the kind of vertical integration Tesla has, nor did they make any deals for 
> raw battery materials. And one reason Tesla is kicking ass with 
> never-before-seen auto industry margins on the Model Y is their relentless, 
> continuous manufacturing improvements like the single front and rear castings.
> 
> The legacy ICE manufacturers are true dinosaurs and will be a textbook 
> example of how companies with no vision will be extinct. As for GM, makers of 
> the abomination of the Hummer EV, who in the name of crushing the CARB 
> mandates snatched all the EV-1s from the owners who were begging to be able 
> to keep them, and crushed them, I say "good riddance". I'm no big Elon Musk 
> fan, but it's just a dream to see that the Model Y is on its way to being the 
> most popular car of any kind in the world.
> 
> -Tom
> 
>> On 4/22/2023 1:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> Elon Musk May Have Been Right, His Tesla Model Y Guess Could Come True
>> 
>> Tesla CEO Elon Musk often gets to prove to people that he was right all 
>> along, and another such opportunity may come soon enough.
>> 
>> Tesla CEO Elon Musk said some time ago that the Model Y would outsell all of 
>> Tesla's other cars, and by a wide margin. This came as a surprise since it's 
>> much more expensive than the popular Model 3. The CEO went on to predict 
>> that the Model Y would eventually become the best-selling car in the world. 
>> Many people thought he was crazy, but there's a much better chance of it 
>> actually happening than you might think.
>> 
>> When the Tesla Model Y first debuted, it was a bit of a disappointment to 
>> many people. The entire unveiling ceremony revolved around the history of 
>> Tesla, and the electric crossover was barely present. When it was finally 
>> shown, it wasn't shown in great detail, and there was no look at the third 
>> row. All you could really tell was that it wasn't much more than an inflated 
>> Model 3.
>> 
>> That said, the Model Y has been selling exceedingly well across the globe. 
>> In fact, it already made some top sales lists in 2022, and Tesla's sales 
>> stand to be much stronger in 2023. While many people love to pick on Elon 
>> Musk for his wild ideas and terrible timelines, he often proves them wrong. 
>> Sure, there are some promises Musk has made that have come true very late or 
>> still not come to fruition, but many of his dreams people doubted years ago 
>> are already a reality.
>> 
>> If all continues to move forward as it has thus far this 

Re: [EVDL] 2 acre riding lawn mower

[Steves via EV]

My 70s Elec-Trak E20 runs good and cuts through all kinds of stuff. Yeah- I 
need to fix things on it but most of the time it’s because I use it so hard. 

A ZT would be nice though. 

-Steve

> On Feb 11, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 2/8/23 23:11, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Well, not something you would take on the road, but I'm glad to see a major 
>> manufacturer, John Deere, producing an electric riding lawn mower. The small 
>> gas engines are the worst polluters and the noise in the neighborhoods has 
>> got to go, too.
>> 
>> https://electrek.co/2023/02/08/john-deere-launches-first-electric-zero-turn-mower/
>>  
>> 
>> ...
>> The electric mower features a 3.2 kWh (3.56 kWh maximum) sealed lithium-ion 
>> battery capable of mowing up to two acres per charge.
>> 
> I think I saw an ad for the coming JD ZTR electric.  I think I saw $6k-$8k go 
> by.  I also think it was advertised as the first electric ZTR.
> 
> I've had more experience with electric riders than I should have subjected my 
> myself to.  I've had a Roybi 38" 48 volt for about three years.  It is the 
> very worst and most unreliable powered mower within my experience.  I've been 
> through THREE mower blade motors and the thing has anemic power.  After I 
> found i was unable to get my mowing done with it, I bought a 42" Cub Cadet 
> ZTR.  It, so far, has been mechanically reliable.   But, it only works when 
> conditions are to it's liking.  It seems  to charge only when air temperature 
> is below 100 deg.  During the summer, I usually went out early in the 
> mornings to restart the charging and could not mow until the heat of the day 
> approaches.
> 
> There are quite a few other issues for both mowers.
> 
> I am reminded of my EV conversion experiences.  My Hyundai conversion was the 
> most expensive to operate car that I have ever owned.  It went 50k miles 
> before gave up on it and jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire by 
> buying my 2011 Leaf.  I figure my cost to own/operate the Hyundai was well 
> over $1/mile.  OTOH, my first $80k Tesla (2013) has about 180k miles on it 
> with very little operating or repair expense.
> 
> Recommendations on good, trouble free, durable, reliable electric riders 
> solicited.
> 
> I have had good luck with Black and Decker lithium push mowers. At $100-$150, 
> they are cheap enough to replace when/if they become troublesome.  I feel 
> stuck with my pair of crappy riders which cost, together, about $7k.  It 
> rankles me, but I now have to do most of my mowing with a Kubota 48" diesel.  
> Though I detest it, I can keep it going and can fall back on the dealer when 
> needed.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] charging infrastructure [EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14]

[Steves via EV]

The US system is a bit of a mess. I don’t know how many accounts I have so I am 
prepared to charge on the road, if I find a working charger. On the other hand, 
in Quebec province they have one system, Electric Circuit,  and it is a really 
good system. I have four 2-car chargers within two blocks of my daughters place 
in Montreal and a good supply of fast and standard chargers in the rural areas. 

-Steve

> On Jun 4, 2023, at 2:16 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Right now, most of us can tolerate a poorly maintained charging 
> infrastructure. Charging at home means infrequent use of level 3 charging. 
> Recently I was in France and, talking to my cousins and other people, they 
> complain of the same thing. It may be slightly better there than US but it's 
> still a large hindrance for EV acceptance.
> 
> Soon, though, if we expect urban dwellers without off street parking to buy 
> EVs, we're going to have to have a more reliable system. Like my cousins, two 
> of which have no off street parking, what are people to do if they can't 
> easily recharge once a week at a local level 3 station ? We can't assume the 
> charge-at-home model much longer.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Tom Hudson via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Tom Hudson" ; "EV List Lackey" 
> Sent: 04-Jun-23 09:38:25
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 127, Issue 14
> 
>> Watching a lot of YouTube EV content, non-Tesla charging infrastructure is a 
>> sad joke. Kyle Connor of "Out of Spec Motors" has been reporting on CCS 
>> charging, including Electrify America, and it's not a pretty picture. It's 
>> not uncommon for an EA charging station with four units to have three that 
>> are inoperable. For WEEKS. It's worse in winter, when their choice of 
>> hardware can't cope with low temperatures. The "All Electric Family", out in 
>> Nebraska, had to be towed on at least one occasion due to inoperable CCS 
>> chargers (including EA). There are numerous accounts of people having to 
>> stay at a hotel as a result of being unable to charge on non-Tesla 
>> hardware.I don't know what people expected from EA, an entity born of the 
>> Dieselgate scandal and VW's lies -- they cobbled together equipment that 
>> wasn't designed to be used in vehicle charging, wasn't intended for outdoor 
>> use with wide temperature variations, didn't set up adequate maintenance 
>> schedules and called it a day.Ford seems t
> o
>>  have effectively called it quits with CCS after CEO Jim Farley experienced 
>> some of this on an EV trip with his family (and I'm sure, outcry from 
>> customers who have to deal with this fiasco). They're switching to Tesla's 
>> NACS solution -- so much easier to use (the charging plug is a fraction of 
>> the size and slides into the port with zero effort) and vastly more reliable 
>> -- in 5 years of owning our Model 3, I think I've only seen TWO chargers out 
>> of order in hundreds of SuperCharger visits.Ford is only the first domino to 
>> fall, I think. Other manufacturers will (if they're smart) undoubtedly 
>> decide to go with the solution that costs them less money and delivers 
>> better customer experience.As we all know, 99% of day-to-day charging is 
>> done at home and DC fast charging is primarily for road trips. But when you 
>> take a trip, the charging has to be there -- enough locations and enough 
>> FUNCTIONAL chargers per location -- to make it practical.If I didn't drive a 
>> Tesla, a road trip would be
> a
>>  miserable exercise in "Range Anxiety" -- something my wife and I actually 
>> joke about on road trips, considering our first EV had less than 50 miles of 
>> range (just 17% of our Model 3's range) and no fast charging.-TomSent from 
>> my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
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Re: [EVDL] Let's fix Electrify America's Charging Stations

[Steves via EV]

Since  Electrify America was a result of the VW fiasco I imagine they are 
solely focused on build out to meet their ordained goal of X installations. One 
would hope that there would it be X operable installations. 

-Steve

> On Jun 10, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Mark E. Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like there's an "opportunity" for the techs/engineers on this list
> to help fix the Electrify America fast charging CCS/CHAdeMO stations.  I
> remember what my HV Power Electronics manager would say when folks would
> whine about something that should be changed: "sounds like an opportunity".
> If you're comfortable with working around HV 480VAC 3 phase &
> Lock-Out-Tag-Out procedures, there should be enough folks scattered around
> the country on this list and friends to tackle the problem.  On Electrify
> America's jobs site:
> https://vwgoa.taleo.net/careersection/ea_careers/jobsearch.ftl?lang=en it
> looks like most jobs are for new installations, not focusing on
> repairs/maintenance however.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a contact there to talk to about company focus?
> 
> 
> 
> Since I have 3 EV's (Tesla-Y, Bolt, Leaf), I'd take my Tesla on trips since
> the charging infrastructure is *so* much better.  If I was a field service
> tech for EA, I wonder if driving up in a Tesla would go over like a "fart in
> church" , better traveling cross country with a 200KW 15 minute charge rate
> vs the Bolt 50KW 1 hour charge rate with iffy Electrify America fast
> chargers, more so in the south Georgia-Florida than in northern pre-EV
> states like Va, Md, PA, NJ (been my experience).  The Leaf is a local short
> distance vehicle but wouldn't buy a plus since only 1 CHAdeMO per 5 CCS
> stations, would have to wait on that one charger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a renewable energy day,
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Mark E. Hanson
> 
> 184 Vista Lane
> 
> Fincastle, VA 24090
> 
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> 
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> 
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> 
> UL Certified PV Installer
> 
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 
> 
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 
> 
> 
>  75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] GM makes a uturn on Bolt production

[Steves via EV]

Yes, it’s good to see. The Bolt is a good car. We really like ours. I was 
afraid GM was going to forgo the reasonable sized EVs. 

Maybe the Volt will be resurrected. I really liked mine. Such a good all around 
vehicle. 

-Steve

> On Jul 26, 2023, at 5:06 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/chevrolet-bolt-ev-euv-comeback/ Probably a good 
> idea.The Bolt I used was almost as capable as my Tesla. Lawrence Rhodes 
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[EVDL] Charger

[Steves via EV]

This showed up on my local Freecycle site.:

36v Lestronic Club Car charger 

It’s northern Virginia. If anyone is interested I could pick it up and hold it 
for you. I do travel up I-81 to Canada now and then and down 29 to North 
Carolina and could meet or drop off potentially.

-Steve
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Re: [EVDL] Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric

[Steves via EV]

It is odd that Toyota has not embraced full EVs. However they do have good plug 
in hybrid offerings now. I recently traded my Volt in for a Rav4 Prime and I 
really like it. It was the only car that fit my needs: 40 miles electric, 40 
MPG on gas, AWD, and 2000 lb towing capacity. I do a fair amount of long 
distance travel , so a straight EV is not a good match for me . I end up about 
50-50 on EV vs gas miles. 

I think PHEVs have a strong place right now. Unfortunately, current battery 
chemistry requires raw materials that are not extremely environmentally 
friendly to extract. Most EVs use a small fraction of their range during the 
day, so the battery is underutilized. My commute plus occasional shopping is 
almost always well under 40 miles. So I’m using the 40 mile battery optimally. 
In other words, my car uses the minimum amount of sensitive elements to support 
my normal driving. One could build 4 or 5 PHEVs with the battery used to build 
a full EV. Since battery availability seems to be a problem , we could have 4-5 
times more EV (ish) cars on the road. 

PHEVs also eliminate range anxiety, which I think slows adoption of EVs in the 
general population. My wife has a Bolt and has suffered through it and had to 
alter course or stay over places due to various  charging problems. She is 
committed to sustainability so she deals with it but most people would not. 

Yes PHEVs are more complicated and expensive. But my Volt was very reliable and 
worked really well. I think the Rav4 will be similar. 

So maybe Toyota is making a good business choice that also works toward greener 
vehicles. 

-Steve

> On May 19, 2023, at 5:28 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> Toyota is a closely held business. I believe it may be owned by a family.
> They were on the forefront of alternative fuels for many years, but they 
> stubbornly would not come out with a battery powered vehicle, until everyone 
> else came out with one and they basically had no choice.
> 
> I suspect that someone has the ear of the owner (or the oldest, and thus most 
> influential family member,) or perhaps the owner has the an incorrect vision 
> of the future of the car market.
> 
> If it were a publicly owned company, it would have long ago jumped on the EV 
> bandwagon.
> 
> Having said that, the Prius hybrid came out at a time when every other car 
> maker thought it was a very foolish move. The Prius would not have been built 
> if Toyota was a publicly owned company.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
>> On 5/19/2023 12:00 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>  They seem to want to go bankrupt. Their resistance to battery EVs is 
>> irresponsible. It is a matter of time. They can catch up  but it will take 
>> time. Their hydrogen side track is not helping. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Bolt “propulsion power reduced” after 80% update

[Steves via EV]

Ugh- this is why my wife wants to get rid of her bolt. We love the car, but 
it’s just not trustworthy. And Chevy has not been very proactive when problems 
occur. It’s a real shame. 

-Steve

> On Nov 15, 2023, at 8:52 PM, Collin Kidder via EV  wrote:
> 
> It sure does sound as if the car detected something wrong with the battery.
> It's my understanding that they did the 80% update instead of replacing
> packs so that they could see which packs were actually bad and which ones
> were not. If your pack isn't bad then it lets you go back to 100% and life
> is good. But, sounds like this pack was one of the "bad" ones and so it is
> heavily limiting things. As such, they should replace it under warranty.
> 
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 8:09 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'm angry for you. Probably doesn't help much but I think this is really
>> unfair and they should fix or replace the car promptly.
>> Peri
>> 
>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>> 
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
>> To: "Mark Hanson" 
>> Cc: "Mark Hanson" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Sent: 15-Nov-23 17:01:54
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bolt “propulsion power reduced” after 80% update
>> 
>>> Ps. In addition to the heater being disabled the charger now won’t
>> charge, says “fully charged” at 40% !
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Nov 15, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Mark Hanson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Folks
>>> I now have an orange vehicle with an exclamation point (check engine
>> light) and on power up “service vehicle now” then “propulsion power
>> reduced” message.
>>> I took it in 2 weeks ago for the requested range reduction 80% for 6200
>> miles (then back to 100% if battery cells are ok).
>>> Has anyone seen this display behavior and propulsion limited to 80KW
>> (normally 150KW). Regen is now limited to 28KW.
>>> Did the software find a bad cell and now is limiting watts in and out of
>> the pack?   I assume this means another trip to the wheeler dealer?
>>> Ps, the $1400 debit card GM gave me actually works.
>>> Best regards
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a FM radio to a Tesla.

[Steves via EV]

The other option is to download stuff to your phone before going out. Works for 
podcasts and at least some Internet radio stations (like RadioParadise). 

Frankly I don’t hear much on FM I like other than NPR. I got a free limited 
subscription to Sirius when I bought my car - ran through the stations and 
found nothing of real interest to me. And I think I have pretty broad tastes.

-Steve

> On Apr 20, 2024, at 10:48 AM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Agreed. I only have a cheap pay-as-you-go phone ($99 a year). I only use it 
> for calls or texts. If I used it like most people, I'd be paying $99 a month 
> for all that "free" data.
> 
> The AM and FM radio in my Leaf works just fine, and is free to use.
> 
> Lee
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
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