Re: [EVDL] Differential issue

2019-07-05 Thread Bill Dube via EV
This appears more like a transaxle, with the motor mounted directly to 
the differential. Apparently, they made ratios of up to 12:1.


Most AC electric motors can spin much faster than typical ICEs do. 
12,000 RPM is not unusual. Thus, the need for a high reduction ratio 
final drive.


Bill D.

On 7/6/2019 12:35 PM, Brett Davis via EV wrote:

Interesting.  Once you get past 5:1 in a smallish differential (like would
fit in an S10) the pinion gear gets VERY small.  Many would rather run
lower transfer case gears than go to 5.13 or 5.89.  It seems like with the
torque of the electric motor, the small pinion would be even more at risk.
I just did a quick search and can't find anything lower than 5.89 but I
thought there were some industrial versions in the 7s.

Brett

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 6:12 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:


This car has a very high ratio in the differential. Something like ~8:1.
Most ICE vehicles have ~3:1 or 4:1.

The gears may prove difficult to replace. I would start by replacing all
the standard, more ordinary parts, like the bearings. Replacing the
bearings may add some life to the worn gears.

Here is an Ebay listing for your gear box:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/azure-dynamics-solectria-at1200-gear-box-with-park-pawl-10-1/123007116723?hash=item1ca3cba5b3:g:V2wAAOSwx7VaoEH4
I would snap that up if I were you. :-)

Here is a motor and gear box from the same seller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AZURE-DYNAMICS-SOLECTRIA-AC24LS-W-AT1200-12-1-GEAR-BOX-/123791157714?vxp=mtr=item1cd28729d2

I would also highly recommend putting in Schaeffer Oil brand gearlube,
instead of the ordinary parts store gear lube you are running. Don't
know what they put in it, but it is superior.
https://www.schaefferoil.com/




On 7/6/2019 8:23 AM, Tom Hudson via EV wrote:

Hi All,Our 1995 Solectria E10 (converted Chevy S10) has a failing

differential. Our mechanic checked it out and when he drained the lube it
was a "metal milkshake". The truck is still driveable but the diff will
eventually completely fail.According to James Worden (founder of Solectria)
these differentials were custom made by Halibrand, and it looks like
they're long gone.Does anyone know of a shop that would be capable of
rebuilding this differential?Thanks,-TomSent from my Verizon, Samsung
Galaxy smartphone

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Re: [EVDL] Differential issue

2019-07-05 Thread Bill Dube via EV
This car has a very high ratio in the differential. Something like ~8:1. 
Most ICE vehicles have ~3:1 or 4:1.


The gears may prove difficult to replace. I would start by replacing all 
the standard, more ordinary parts, like the bearings. Replacing the 
bearings may add some life to the worn gears.


Here is an Ebay listing for your gear box:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/azure-dynamics-solectria-at1200-gear-box-with-park-pawl-10-1/123007116723?hash=item1ca3cba5b3:g:V2wAAOSwx7VaoEH4
I would snap that up if I were you. :-)

Here is a motor and gear box from the same seller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AZURE-DYNAMICS-SOLECTRIA-AC24LS-W-AT1200-12-1-GEAR-BOX-/123791157714?vxp=mtr=item1cd28729d2

I would also highly recommend putting in Schaeffer Oil brand gearlube, 
instead of the ordinary parts store gear lube you are running. Don't 
know what they put in it, but it is superior.

https://www.schaefferoil.com/




On 7/6/2019 8:23 AM, Tom Hudson via EV wrote:

Hi All,Our 1995 Solectria E10 (converted Chevy S10) has a failing differential. Our 
mechanic checked it out and when he drained the lube it was a "metal 
milkshake". The truck is still driveable but the diff will eventually completely 
fail.According to James Worden (founder of Solectria) these differentials were custom 
made by Halibrand, and it looks like they're long gone.Does anyone know of a shop that 
would be capable of rebuilding this differential?Thanks,-TomSent from my Verizon, Samsung 
Galaxy smartphone
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Re: [EVDL] balancing: ?PD.lu purposely maintenance-drain Tesla-S pack every 20, 000km?

2019-07-02 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I agree that it is not good to satisfy some firmware deficiency by 
putting a very deep cycle on your pack.

Best to correct the firmware, or ignore the problem.


On 7/2/2019 7:41 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 1 Jul 2019 at 15:24, paul dove via EV wrote:


I think people get confused with the term balancing. It is pretty much a carry
over from lead acid batteries where the take all the cells to boiling to get
them to the same voltage at the end of charge.

That's what I'd call equalization -- forcing current through already-charged
cells or batteries, overcharging them, in order to fully charge others that
aren't yet.

Balancing lead batteries is different from equalization, and similar to
balancing any other cell or battery.

I'm not an expert, but from what I can tell, regardless of the chemistry,
balancing cells or batteries in series usually involves either bypassing
charging current around full cells or modules, or actively using other
cells/modules to charge the cells/modules with lower charge levels.

The goal of balancing shouldn't be so much to get all cells/modules to the
same voltage, but rather to get them to the same state of charge (usually
full).  But generally voltage and SOC are considered congruent for balancing
purposes, even though they're not really.

As for periodic deliberate deep discharges, again, I'm not an electrochemist
or anything, but my understanding is that it's not all that healthy for most
batteries.  (NiCd is an exception, apparently, but only if you're careful
not to reverse them.)

I suspect that when a discharge to or near 0 SOC seems to increase capacity,
it's actually because it's somehow recalibrating the firmware that manages
the battery.  The capacity is still there, it's just that the BMS doesn't
think it is.  Running the battery flat, or nearly so, sort of reboots or
recalibrates the BMS.  I own a netbook that "finds" some capacity that it's
"lost" when I do this.  But I don't like it.  I just don't think that's how
you treat a battery if you want to show it you like it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Transporting/moving your EV> look for a decent company

2019-07-01 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I also had a Leaf transported out of state in the US, and I didn't do 
any of that. It was simply routine to the transporter.


If you are going to ship overseas, it might well be a different story. 
Also, a _homebuilt_ EV is an entirely different kettle of fish.


Bill D.

On 7/1/2019 12:18 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I e had electric cars moved and I did none of that

Sent from my iPhone


On Jun 29, 2019, at 6:38 PM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:



https://www.smart-energy.com/industry-sectors/electric-vehicles/how-to-move-an-electric-car/
How to move an electric car?
June 24, 2019

Moving an electric car is not as difficult as you might fear. Sure, there
are certain preparations you have to take care of, but the whole process is
pretty much straightforward. That is unless you want to ensure that your
electric car is moved in an eco-friendly way and that the relocation doesn't
cost you a fortune. If that is the case, you might need to do some extra
work in order to find the right shipping company to help you out. Luckily,
we are here to tell you all you need to know about how to move an electric
car. So, let's jump in.

Prepare your car for transport

You cannot safely transport your car without preparing it first. In fact,
most car shipping companies will outright refuse to move an electric car if
it is not prepared for relocation. This is especially true if you plan on
moving your car to a different state or to a different country. In that
case, you might need to fill out extra paperwork. So, before you do anything
else, make sure that you have the necessary paperwork for car transport.
That will include both the legal paperwork and the necessary insurance. Once
you have that covered, you can move on to the next step.

Clean it

Having a clean car is mandatory for safe transportation. No matter what
shipping type you opt for, you will need to clean your car before you
attempt it. So, either take your car to your local cleaner or go at it
yourself. Having a clean car is not only about the looks. Sure, every car
looks prettier when it is clean, but the more important reason is safety.
There is a higher risk of your car failing if it is dirty and not properly
maintained. This is why you need to clean your car before shipping it and
keep it clean afterward.

Have a mechanic check it out

Once you have it cleaned, you need to check if it is in proper condition for
the move. The best way to do this is to find a local mechanic who is
proficient in electric cars. Since more and more companies are working
together in producing electric cars, there are going to be more and more
mechanics who know how to fix and maintain them. But, right now, depending
on where you live, you might have a hard time finding a decent electric car
mechanic. If that is the case, you need to go online and look for a
respectable one. Electric cars are complicated, and you should only let the
best mechanics maintain yours if you plan on moving it safely.

Hire a company to move an electric car

Once you have prepared your car and you have the necessary paperwork, the
time has come to find someone to move your car. Now, finding a decent
shipping company is similar to finding a decent moving company. For moving,
you can go to sites like mastermovingguide.com, but for moving cars you best
visit sites like Google or Facebook. You need to start early and you need to
keep looking until you find the most reliable and competent one. Electric
cars are usually expensive, and if you want yours to remain in pristine
condition, you need to have experienced, well-equipped car movers handling
it.

How to look for a decent company

Once you find a couple of potential car movers, you need to filter them out
and find the most reliable ones. Moving a regular car and moving an electric
car is pretty similar if they simply plan to ship them. So, if a company
doesn't specify that they move electric cars, don't worry. Simply look for
companies that have the most experience that have the highest ratings. Once
you find ones that seem reliable and competent, contact them. Then you will
able to find out what their moving plan is and how much they plan on
charging you for it.

Different ways of shipping

What may surprise you is that there are multiple ways to ship an electric
car. If you are shipping it from overseas, you will need to use either a
plane or a boat to get your electric car into the country. Once you do that,
there are again multiple ways to ship. You can either opt for auto carrier
trucks or you can choose a train. Trains are usually used by larger
companies for larger shipments. They are safe, but they can be quite
expensive. This is why you will probably opt for auto carrier trucks.

But, this is not where your options end. You can choose between open
carriers and enclosed carriers. Open carriers are usually cheaper but they
provide less protection. In enclosed carriers, your car will be safe from
the elements, which can be quite useful in extreme 

[EVDL] EV charging time, Fueling time for Fuel Cells (was: Excellent article)

2019-06-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV
In reality, the only practical limit to the speed of EV charging is the 
size of the charger. Battery design and thermal management of the pack 
can keep up with any charger size.


They are about to come out with 300 kW chargers. No joke. Fill you car 
up in a couple of minutes.


Here is a paper on fueling time for fuel cells:
https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1389635

What is important to note is that the H2 must be pre-cooled to -40 
degrees to keep the vehicle tank temperature below 85 C (which is 
considered the maximum safe temperature for H2 in a composite tank.)


This takes even more additional energy to refrigerate the H2 at the 
delivery point. This fast fill cooling energy is never accounted for in 
any energy efficiency models I've seen.


I also should add that the required "leak check" time that is a 
necessary part of the fill process adds quite a bit to the total fueling 
cycle time, and is often neglected by advocates of H2 fuel cells.


Bill D.





On 6/28/2019 2:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
The author claims the only real advantage to fuel cells is the fueling 
time. And that was two years ago. It's even less of an advantage now 
and the trend is continuing.


The only other argument I can see would be the efficiency of the 
overall system, including generating hydrogen. The generation part is 
the loser. As far as I know, there are only two ways to generate large 
amounts of hydrogen: electrolysis or breaking down hydrocarbon 
molecules. Electrolysis is about 50% efficient, I think. Hydrocarbon 
generally depends on natural gas, and I think we're going to see an 
enormous push back on fracking as more health and environmental issues 
manifest.


Maybe Toyota got a lot of grant money from Calif. ?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 26-Jun-19 6:43:27 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Excellent article (was: Lets discourage hydrogen 
advocates. )



Very well researched article on H2 fuel cells versus EV's.

The article expertly covers the "what" but doesn't mention the "why" 
of Toyota and H2.
I really would like to know what motivates Toyota to keep pushing H2 
passenger cars.


Bill D.

On 6/27/2019 9:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
This was a story saying Toyota thought Elon Musk was right but they 
were going to make Fool cells anyway.  Lawrence Rhodes

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[EVDL] Excellent article (was: Lets discourage hydrogen advocates. )

2019-06-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Very well researched article on H2 fuel cells versus EV's.

The article expertly covers the "what" but doesn't mention the "why" of 
Toyota and H2.
I really would like to know what motivates Toyota to keep pushing H2 
passenger cars.


Bill D.

On 6/27/2019 9:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
This was a story saying Toyota thought Elon Musk was right but they were going 
to make Fool cells anyway.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

2019-06-26 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Actually, H2 fuel cell vehicles are hybrid cars. They have a battery 
/and/ a fuel cell.


The battery provides a boost for acceleration, and stores energy during 
regen. The fuel cell can then be smaller to only provide just the 
average power needs. The battery also allows the fuel cell to ramp up 
and down more slowly as there are pumps, flows, etc. involved.


I have done the math. Indeed, fuel cells don't make economic sense in 
passenger vehicles. The fuel cost more than electricity per mile driven. 
This is a fact that is easily confirmed. Just compare the mileage, fuel 
use, and fuel cost for both types of vehicle. Pretty simple. (If you 
want to "twist the knife" add in the compression costs for H2.)


An important additional cost that most folks don't realize is that fuel 
cells have a limited lifespan. When they "breathe" in air, they also 
take in pollutants and slowly poison the fuel cell. The cost of 
replacement can be quite pricey as the active element is platinum. (At 
least it was last time I checked, but they may have come up with some 
new alternative. The alternatives to platinum that I am aware of greatly 
lower the efficiency, so they are not really cost effective.) Early fuel 
cell vehicles had to replace the fuels cells after just a few months of 
use. They have made great strides since then, but they still wear out, 
which the fuel cell advocates never seem to mention. ;-)


Bill D.

On 6/26/2019 5:32 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
Gentlemen, please! This is the electric vehicle *discussion* list; not 
Facebook, talk radio, or a political campaign rally. People who hold 
an opposing view aren't idiots, crooks, or liars. Let's skip the 
emotion, and stick to the facts.


May I point out that most H2 fueled vehicles *are* EVs? Their H2 tanks 
and fuel cells are just a different form of battery. They are thus a 
reasonable topic for discussion on this list.


The world faces serious problems with energy usage, climate change, 
and rising CO2 levels. We got into this mess by letting others make 
the choices for us. They wound up deciding based on money, 
self-interest, and a "we've always done it this way" attitude. It's 
becoming increasingly clear that "their way" will lead to a disastrous 
future.


So let's discuss *every* possible transportation alternative. Let's 
debate what *kind* of battery is best; its performance and cost, 
advantages and disadvantages. It is likely that different ones will be 
best for different purposes. We need to try them *all*! Learn what 
works, and what doesn't.




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[EVDL] Nifty new website for our latest electric motorcycle

2019-04-30 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Eva just launched the new website for our latest electric motorcycle 
project, the Green Envy.


http://greenenvyracing.com/

It is going to be 1000+ HP and, of course, will be green in color. 
Shooting for the _overall_ motorcycle land speed record 376 MPH (605 
km/h for the metric among us.)


Bill & Eva

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Re: [EVDL] Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium

2019-03-16 Thread Bill Dube via EV
No Paul, Lee is indeed referring to the rate of discharge chart, 
however, he has chosen the cut-off to be _*3 volts*_, rather than the 
customary cut-off of_*2.5 volts*_. (No one uses a cut-off of 3 volts, 
that I am aware of. All the charts note that 2.5v cut-off is the 
standard for comparison. If we picked 3.5 volts as the cut-off, we would 
get a huge spread in the apparent capacity, but that would be silly.)


You are correct that the 12 minute discharge (0.2C rate), the 0.5C rate, 
and the 1C rate all show the same capacity, 3.25 mA-hr. While the 2 hour 
discharge (2C rate) shows a slightly elevated capacity of  3.350 mA.


    I suspect that the faster rates had some unavoidable internal 
heating, (even though the case temperature was held at a constant 25 
degrees Celsius,) which tends to decrease the internal resistance, and 
tends to raise the terminal voltage under load, especially when the 
impedance rises near the end. Thus, the apparent capacity shift is quite 
likely due to increased internal temperature rather than ion diffusion.


    Lead acid curves would have shown a much greater sensitivity to the 
discharge rate. Much greater. As I said earlier, the ions can diffuse 
perhaps 100 times more quickly in Li-Ion cells than in lead-acid cells, 
which makes the Puekert exponent very close to unity in Li_ion. Puekert 
is not really useful in Li_ion because the diffusion is so fast in Li-Ion.


Bill D.


On 3/17/2019 12:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

That’s not what the spec sheet says. You are reading the graph for temperature 
variations. There is almost no difference due to discharge rates. 2C is 3250 
and 0.5C is 3350 according to your spec sheet.

And lead acid batteries have a Puekert coefficient as low as 1.08.

Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 15, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Steve Heath via EV  wrote:

Peukert's law is not an actual law but an empirical formula that is based on 
actual physical measurements. It gives an approximate estimate of how much 
capacity can be obtained. The way that it is used is that the capacity is 
measured at different discharge rates to give a co-efficient that can then be 
applied to other batteries.  This is where the difficulty lies. The coefficient 
is taken by measurement and providing another battery is the same then the 
coefficient is applicable. If not and it isn't.

The key point is that the discharge curves for li ion batteries do vary significantly 
depending on the load in real life according to the manufacturer data.  At the 0% soc end 
point, the capacities are the same (give or take). This is why the Peukerts coefficient 
is close to 1 rather than 1.2 or higher for a lead acid battery. Hence the comment that 
it is not applicable. It is there but very small to be accurate.  However at a typical 
self preservation point e.g   cutoff voltage used by BMS, the capacities are different. 
As a result, there is a "Peukerts" effect where the amount of capacity that can 
be obtained is different depending on the discharge current. It is not the same Peukerts 
effect but the end result is the same. Discharge more, less capacity...

The data sheet for a Panasonic 18650 shows this effect very well ( 
https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf ) where a cut off voltage 
of 3v gives a capacity of 2400mAh at 2c and 3300 mAh  at 0.2C .  At the 0% soc 
point they all come out at 3300 and 3400. So discharging to 0% soc, the 
discharge current is more or less irrelevant. Interestingly these results are 
taken at constant cell temperature where any overheating advantage is not 
applicable. Without seeing the complete paper that was referred to, it is 
difficult to know if any comparison with manufacturer data was made or whether 
tests were done at constant temperature and what the results were.

Discharging to a lower 15-20% level to protect the battery, there is a big 
difference. If you want to get the best capacity out of a li ion battery with a 
BMS, either reduce the discharge rate or change the BMS to accept a lower 
cutoff voltage and risk battery damage.



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Re: [EVDL] 360 Video of KillaJoule going 236 MPH in Australia

2019-03-15 Thread Bill Dube via EV
There are more gauges, but the bright light makes them hard to see in 
the cockpit.


Bill D.

On 3/16/2019 1:57 AM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:

That's pretty awesome Bill, although I only saw the speedometer hit 231, so
much slower lol.  I expected to see a lot more gauges other than a
speedometer, take it's all being done remotely?  I suppose at those speeds
taking your eyes off the road to even glance at a gauge means a lot of
distance covered without seeing it. Are the trail markers at 1 mile
increments?  Crazy how fast they go by at those speeds.


On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 5:57 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:


Here is a 360 video of the KillaJoule on a 236 mph run at Lake Gairdner
Australia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg20-fR3NxE

Scroll around with your mouse to see Eva, the controls, look out the
side window, etc.

  (This video is a lot of fun on a VR head set, BTW.)

Bill & Eva

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[EVDL] Peukert (was: Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium

2019-03-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Diffusion rates are vastly less in Li-Ion. Thus, Puekert exponents are 
very near unity (1.0).
Yes, there is some tiny effect, but no, the Puekert equation is not 
really applicable.


The one hour capacity is essentially the same as the 20 hour capacity in 
Li-Ion.


Bill D.

On 3/15/2019 3:19 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Michael Ross via EV wrote:
I am not sure about previous discussions and you may know this: 
Peukert's
Law is not applicable to Li ion cells in any way. It only relates to 
lead

acid cells.


I agree with the rest of what you said, but not with this. Peukert's 
law says nothing about the chemistry involved; it applies to *all* 
types of batteries and all chemistries.


Peukert's equation applies to any battery or cell that has internal 
resistance, and that has a minimum "cutoff" voltage below which it is 
harmed. It simply states that the higher the load current, the lower 
the apparent amphour capacity. High currents cause a larger voltage 
drop, so you reach the "cutoff" voltage before the cell is truly dead.


The amphours are not "missing"; you just can't get them without 
reducing the load current, or pulling its voltage below the safe 
minimum. If you're willing to shorten the life of the cell, you can 
still get it.


Peukert matters more for lead-acids because they typically have a 
higher internal resistance. In particular, lead-acid internal 
resistance goes up a lot as the cell approaches dead. Most other 
chemistries do not have this large change in internal resistance as a 
function of state of charge.




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[EVDL] 360 Video of KillaJoule going 236 MPH in Australia

2019-03-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Here is a 360 video of the KillaJoule on a 236 mph run at Lake Gairdner 
Australia.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg20-fR3NxE

Scroll around with your mouse to see Eva, the controls, look out the 
side window, etc.


    (This video is a lot of fun on a VR head set, BTW.)

Bill & Eva

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: L3 DC charging leaves L2 AC face-down in the dust

2018-12-25 Thread Bill Dube via EV



DC chargers are essentially a current source. That is, they are set up 
to regulate and deliver a specified current, and they let the voltage be 
whatever it happens to be.


The max voltage is 700 volts or more, sometimes as high a 1000 volts.

Bill D.

On 12/26/2018 11:39 AM, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:



On Dec 25, 2018, at 13:08, Cor van de Water mailto:cor.vandewa...@gmail.com>> wrote:

DC charging only consists of an inlet, a pair of contactors plus a small 
computer board

Does this mean standardized traction pack voltage and chemistry, or does it 
imply some sort of protocol so the car can inform the outboard charger of its 
needs? Is there a standard for that protocol?

Jan

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[EVDL] Johnson Controls (was: NMC chemistry working voltage)

2018-12-22 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Johnson Controls is very much a battery manufacturer. They make Optima 
batteries, for example.


Johnson Controls buys up other businesses, including battery 
manufacturers, like Optima. They are a large, somewhat bumbling, 
conglomerate.  (They are  kind of like Raytheon, or General Electric.)


They bought Optima because they wanted the IP for spiral lead-acid 
battery technology. Soon after buying Optima, they got rid of the R 
department entirely, which held all the IP they were after. (This spread 
the IP to other battery companies and away from Johnson Controls.)


    They then had to dial back the performance numbers on the spec 
sheets and the ratings on the batteries because the manufacturing line 
was unable to troubleshoot problems they encountered manufacturing 
Optimas. This was because they cut the entire R shop and with it the 
knowledge to actually keep the line running properly.


Bill D.



The cell type and cooling method looks a lot like VW does (rectangular cells, 
cooled at the bottom on a cold plate, 12 cells in a module) though VW tends to 
use 3 parallel so a module is typically 4s3p (14V), but this seller may have 
rewired such modules, I don’t know. VW is using 2 different manufacturers. As 
far as I know, Johnson Controls is a reseller, not a battery manufacturer.
Cor.



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[EVDL] Li-Ion versus Lead-Acid (was: Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc)

2018-12-12 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Li-Ion batteries decline in capacity at a steady slow rate, until they 
eventually have zero capacity. Pretty much a flat curve. (Actually 
slightly concave. They decline slightly less per cycle as they age.)


Lead-acid batteries "fall off of a cliff" at their end of life. They 
rise slightly in capacity on the first few cycles, then steadily decline 
to about 3/4 of their rated capacity. After that, they are in a death 
spiral and fall to near zero capacity after a short while.


Big difference. This is why Li_ion EV packs have a promising secondary 
market. They are still fine, but simply have reduced capacity. Reduced 
range in a car, but useful for stationary applications or other 
applications where half the energy per kg is not a problem.


Makes for an interesting used car market. Only need to go half as far? 
Buy a used EV far a bargain. Retired folks that simply need to drive 
back and forth on short errands are a great market for EVs with "run 
out" batteries.


Also, replacement li-ion batteries are getting cheap. Approaching $100 
per kw-hr these days.


Bill D.


With a lead battery, 68% of factory specified capacity would be considered a
fully depreciated battery, ready for replacement.  Actually anything below
80% would be.

Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of spec
capacity still considered usable?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator



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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

2018-11-10 Thread Bill Dube via EV
There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle 
is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM radio 
share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the problem.


The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the chassis, 
(and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is received by 
the AM radio.


The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, reduces 
the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM radio. The 
drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the specific frequency 
region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is _/very/_ difficult. 
You can locate the sensitive components of the AM radio away from the 
drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.


    Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception?   Most 
folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception is 
not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" instead 
of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.


    This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is quite 
costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds weight, which 
reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small airplanes, 
helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears headphones (or ear 
plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane itself is designed to 
reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very expensive to solve noise the 
problem at the source end. Much cheaper and lighter to solve the problem 
at the relieving end.


    Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get 
to your destination any quicker.


Bill D.




On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor 
and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?


Peri



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Re: [EVDL] Zilla Code 1124 Main Contactor Stuck On

2018-10-31 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Could also be a stuck precharge relay, or something wrong in the 
precharge circuit.


Bill D.

On 11/1/2018 8:23 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Wed Oct 31 09:22:19 PDT 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

Recently when I start my truck it often takes me a couple of tries of turning 
the main contactor on and off before the motor will spin.  I figured the Zilla 
is seeing something it does not like and found an 1124 code stored which seems 
like the likely culprit.  What is the Zilla measuring that is causing this 
error?  What should I check to clear it up?  It usually only happens when I 
first turn the truck on, but I have noticed that when sitting idle for a long 
time occasionally the truck refuses to move or the main contactor drops out all 
together as well.  It has not happend at a stop light or similar stop, only in 
my driveway or when waiting at the curb for a long time while picking up my 
daughter.

>From the Zilla manual: 1124 Main Contactor Stuck On

So, it's probably seeing pack voltage when it thinks it shouldn't be.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 400kW (1080mph) EVSE new2 GM> (not new-tech 2others)

2018-09-06 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Indoor sky diving facilities use more than a mega-watt.
Shopping centers use far more than this. Half a megawatt is commonplace, 
believe it or not.


They are considering fast chargers this size in New Zealand, but cars 
have to be set up to use this much charger. There are several car 
manufacturers and charger manufacturers considering 10 minute 350 to 400 
kw charging.


Most folks don't really _need_ 400 kw charging, but most folks don't 
need private jets either. They sell quite a few private jets.


Bill D.

On 9/6/2018 6:55 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
I think it's pretty common to have 13.8kV available to a business 
location. Usually a step-down transformer is provided at site but in 
this case, they may want to use 13.8kV directly.


The other factor which could make a huge difference is load leveling 
using a large battery. That would help as long as there's a modest 
amount of time between charges.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 06-Sep-18 5:21:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 400kW (1080mph) EVSE new2 GM> (not new-tech 
2others)



On 6 Sep 2018 at 20:00, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:


Each charger would require its own electrical substation.


Really?  I'm far from an expert on electric utility issues, but 400kW is
about the total peak capacity of 4 recently built bloated McMansions 
(main

panel == 400 amps at 240 volts).  I don't see a substation for every 4
houses in those neighborhoods, but maybe I'm missing something.   And of
course those houses aren't all running at peak load all the time, 
either.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Shorai LiFePO4 LFX36L3-BS12 Longevity Reviews

2018-08-12 Thread Bill Dube via EV


On 8/13/2018 11:31 AM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:

Mark Hanson asked "curious if LiFePO4 dies suddenly or gradually like
lead."



    The cranking power (specific power, internal resistance) stays 
relatively flat over the lifespan, at least in A123's. The capacity 
(specific energy) declines slowly of the life span. They "die" when they 
don't have the energy needed to crank for sufficient time, which tends 
to happen suddenly when you reach that threshold. The battery doesn't 
die suddenly, but its capacity is suddenly inadequate. It won't, for 
example, crank the extra time needed to start a cold engine.


    I built a 4S3P 12 volt battery for my ICE van out of A123 cordless 
tool cells. It lasted for about 10 years. Probably would have lasted 
longer had I not left it at zero volts for several days a couple of times.


    You can check the health (capacity) of the battery by periodically 
putting it an RC type cell cycler, like a CellPro:

http://www.usastore.revolectrix.com/Products_2/Cellpro-Multi4_3/Cellpro-Multi4_1089

    "Death" will then happen predictably, when you see that capacity 
begins to approach whatever it takes to crank and start up your motor.


Bill D.

    Does your engine have a pull start, or is it way to large for that?

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[EVDL] Weatherproof boxes (Was: Juicebox)

2018-06-15 Thread Bill Dube via EV
One of the mistakes folks make it to attempt to make the box completely 
sealed. You really can't seal a box effectively without going to extreme 
measures. It gets expensive to do this. Because of changes in 
temperature and atmospheric pressure, air will find some way to come it 
and out, dragging humidity and perhaps water with it. It is, as you say, 
best to accept the fact that a box will breathe and to deal effectively 
with that breathing.


It is best to place the vent in a place that will naturally be sheltered 
from drips or will not draw drips into the enclosure. Your tube that ran 
up the back of the enclosure is a good example. Next, it is important to 
make the "exhale" of the box expel any water somehow has that found its 
way into the box. Your vents in the bottom of the enclosure are a good 
example of that, (but they would also tend draw in drips from the 
corners outside.)


A good design might be to put a small rail around the bottom edge of the 
box, and put the vents on up on the inside of that rail. Adding a 
desiccant in-line with the vent can really keep the inside dry, but you 
have to service/change the desiccant regularly, which most users won't 
do. What does really help is to keep the interior dead volume to a 
minimum so it will breathe as little as possible. If the power is 
available, a small heater makes a huge difference by keeping the 
interior above the dew point, stopping condensation. But that can be an 
unacceptable loss of energy.


Potting the components to completely eliminate the dead volume around 
the parts is a very effective approach. It makes the device 
unserviceable, however, and it sometimes makes the heat build up 
unmanageable. Conformal coating is probably the most cost effective method.


Bill D.
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[EVDL] hybrid RV, but using and EV "toad" (was: Winnebago Electric C-class RV r:85/125mi)

2018-05-29 Thread Bill Dube via EV

The article below made me think back to an idea I had many years ago:

Why not tow an EV with your RV but use it as a boost going up hill, and 
regen with it going down hill?


RV's very often have a "Toad", or a towed vehicle, that they drag along 
to use as around-town transportation while the huge motorhome is parked 
in the campground.


This "Toad" could easily be an EV, and could easily serve a useful 
purpose, other than simply adding drag and reducing gas mileage, while 
it is attached to the motorhome. It could help push the RV up steep 
hills and help accelerate the typically under-powered motorhome. It 
could also regen while going down hill and while braking. This would 
basically make the combination a hybrid vehicle and improve the 
typically atrocious mileage these behemoths normally get.


They make an intelligent brake box (brake buddy) that you put in the ICE 
toad to work the vehicle brakes when in tow to assist the RV brakes, you 
could add a touch more brains to that same box to make it work the 
accelerator as well.


http://www.brakebuddy.com/

Just a thought

Bill D.

On 5/29/2018 1:58 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


% Aimed at mobile classrooms, blood clinics, and other on-the-go service
vehicles %

https://www.curbed.com/2018/5/25/17391662/rv-motorhome-electric-winnebago-solar-panel
Winnebago launches an all-electric RV
May 25, 2018  Megan Barber

[images
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/59854309/electric_specialty_vehicle.0.png
Courtesy of Winnebago Industries

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11418569/dethleffs_ehome_concept_41.jpg
The Dethleffs e.home Type C motorhome
https://chorus.voxmedia.com/compose/fc391f39-e761-4edf-9d0f-1151bdb14872
  combines a zero-emissions powertrain with tons of smart technologies inside
]

But there’s a catch

The push for increasing efficiency and green technology in the auto industry
shows no signs of slowing, and now the RV industry is getting into the game.
Winnebago Industries has announced [
https://winnebagoind.com/company/news/electric-specialty-vehicle
] the launch of an all-electric chassis that would emit zero emissions.

We’ve seen concept RVs covered in solar panels before, but this move proves
that major manufacturers have taken note. Winnebago plans to release the
electric RV in the commercial vehicle market, aimed at mobile classrooms,
blood clinics, and other on-the-go service vehicles. The vehicle will be
available in 33-foot and 38-foot lengths and with a Gross Vehicle Weight
Rating (GVWR) up to 26,000 pounds. It will also come with plenty of
amenities, like slide rooms, air-conditioning, solar panels, inverters,
toilets, showers, and plumbing.

Unfortunately this all-electric RV won’t be available as a camper or
motorhome to the public because of its limited range. According to the
company, tests show that their electric vehicle can use six to eight
batteries for a range of between 85 to 125 miles on a full charge. That
might work for short distances—like if you’re an urban outreach clinic
traveling around a city—but that would be hard for anyone looking to travel
in motorhome.

Don’t despair, this latest development (made in partnership with Motiv Power
Systems) is still important. As electric vehicles become more common place
for everyday drivers and trucks, it’s clear that a fully-electric Winnebago
camper might a possibility in the near future.

“Winnebago Industries is a company that is focused on creating customer
value through innovation and technology,” said Ashis Bhattacharya, head of
Winnebago’s specialty vehicles division.

“We have a rich history of product and feature innovation, and we are
continuously evaluating new and emerging technologies to further that
legacy. We believe that all-electric vehicle applications continue to evolve
to serve numerous end-user needs and this is our first step as a participant
in this space.”
[© 2018 Vox Media]
...
https://winnebagoind.com/company/news/electric-specialty-vehicle

Winnebago Industries Launches All-Electric/Zero-Emission Commercial Vehicle
Platform
FOREST CITY, IOWA, May 1, 2018 - Winnebago Industries (pr) ...


http://rvdailyreport.com/industry/winnebago-launches-an-all-electric-rv/
Winnebago launches an all-electric RV
2018/5/25  Winnebago plans to release the electric RV in the commercial
vehicle market, aimed at mobile classrooms, blood clinics, and other
on-the-go service vehicles. The vehicle will be available in 33-foot and
38-foot lengths and with a Gross Vehicle Weight ...

  
EVLN: Winnebago e-RV using Motiv drivetrain r:125mi

https://electrek.co/2018/05/02/winnebago-all-electric-rv-platform-electric-motorhome/
Winnebago launches an all-electric RV platform – but it can’t be used as an
electric motorhome yet ...
May 07 2018


+
https://motherboard.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/bj3x74/electric-school-buses-vehicle-to-grid-v2g-power-grid
Electric School Buses Can Be Backup Batteries For the US Power Grid
May 15 2018  

Re: [EVDL] EV Brakes

2018-05-23 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Just to keep the record straight: Tesla turns on the monitoring only for 
test drives. Tesla still is the owner and has every right to monitor the 
cars it still legally owns.
Once the car is sold, you have to give express permission to allow 
monitoring. The default, once the car is sold, is no position or route 
monitoring. You have to choose to turn it on.


On the OD2 "dongle" for monitoring, I am in full agreement. Why on earth 
would you let a third party spy on your driving habits? Makes no sense, 
but people still allow it. I saw the advertisement and instantly thought 
of the "big brother" component, and also the solution to the problem.


I would think it would be an interesting exercise to build an 
intermediate layer of electronics between the dongle and the car (or 
perhaps simply create an imaginary virtual car to feed messages to the 
dongle) that would only allow the "good" codes to pass to the dongle, 
and would block the "bad" codes. Kind of a "little old lady from 
Pasadena" CAN message filter. No hard braking codes. No high speed 
codes. Just lovely gentle (perhaps random) driving CAN messages.


Bill D.




On 5/23/2018 3:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 23 May 2018 at 18:25, robert winfield via EV wrote:


So, a word to the wise, bad and poorly written software can get you

I'm sure the software is badly written, but that's not the main problem.
The whole premise is bogus.  It's the insurance company behind it that's
"getting you."  They would still be "getting you" even if the software were
bug-free.

There's just way too much paternalism going down everywhere these days.  Do
you really want to volunteer for more?  You can sign up to have a permanent
backseat driver if you want, but I sure won't.  I'm a big boy now, and I
don't need or want daddy in the car with me every second and every mile.

Not gonna dance to that tune.  Not even for a discount on my insurance.  And
I drive like your grandma, too.

For the same reason (among others), I'll never buy a Tesla.  Remember when
that "journalist" tried to kill the battery in an early Model S by driving
it in circles in a parking lot?  At first I was amused that the car's
software ratted him out to Musk.  Then I thought a little more about it, and
decided it wasn't so funny after all.  It's not just guys like that Tesla's
spying on.  It's EVERY Tesla driver, all the time.

Musk is a brilliant businessman, and I'm glad he's pushed Detroit and Tokyo
to get off their bums, but I'm just not interested in having him riding in
my back seat.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] Self-discharge (was: Lithium drop in replacements.)

2018-05-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Measuring voltage on a LiPOFe4 cell has *_no bearing_* on the 
state-of-charge. Only at near 100% SOC or near 0% SOC does the voltage 
change significantly.


You have to actually fully cycle a LiFePOFe4 cell to determine its SOC. 
If you don't do a full, 100% - 0% - 100% cycle, you can't determine the 
SOC. Time consuming and tedious, especially for many cells in series.


The patience and care which is required to measure self-discharge in 
LiPOFe4 cells is probably the root of many misconceptions about 
self-discharge, balance, and the need for a BMS.


The self discharge for LiPOFe4 cells is indeed small, but it is real and 
it is a strong function of temperature. It also varies from cell to 
cell. Just because it is small, does not mean it can be neglected. We 
have all hear the familiar saying "rust never sleeps". Well, "self 
discharge never sleeps" either. Given time, it will ruin a series pack, 
or in worse case cause a fire.


If self-discharge were equal, and remained equal, there would be no need 
for a BMS, but it is unequal. As the number of cells in series 
increases, the problem becomes more pronounced, and more deadly.


Here is a link showing the temperature dependence of self-discharge:
http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/9444.pdf
You can see that the self discharge gets _much_ greater as temperature 
increases. (There is a cornucopia of self-discharge information 
available. All you have to do is look.)


What most people don't realize is that the cells in a battery pack do 
not stay at uniform temperature. The end-most cells, for example, are 
connected to the outside environment by large cables. These cables make 
the end cells swing in temperature with the outside temperature, while 
the middle cells tend to stay at the average pack temperature. The 
middle most cells, are somewhat insulated from the outside, and tend to 
heat up when the pack is cycled. When the temperature rises, the self 
discharge goes wild. When it gets cold, the self-discharge returns to a 
tiny rate. Each temperature rise gets the end cells more out of balance. 
Kind of like a ratchet. (The cold swings don't "correct" for the warm 
swings, unfortunately. The exponential nature of the Arrhenius curve is 
to blame.)


If you log the individual cell temperatures, this disparity becomes 
obvious. Without any BMS or any sort of battery monitoring, you don't 
realize there is any problem at all, until your garage burns down. :-)


Bill D.

On 5/14/2018 7:18 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Hey thanks for your input. I’m sure a lot of people have varied experiences. I 
must’ve met there probably differences between manufacturers. However that was 
not my experience. I bought Bestgo sales hundred amp hour. I did extensive 
testing before installing them in a vehicle. I put 40 for 100 amp our cells in 
a 1986 Toyota Celica. I charge them 3.65 V per cell or 160.6 V.  After sitting 
for a while the voltage dropped 148.7 v or 3.38 volts per cell. I drove the 
vehicle every day for two years. There was never a variance at the end of 
charge. All the cells measured 3.38 V several hours after charging. I took the 
cells out of the vehicle And they said on the shelf for year and a half or so. 
I measure the voltage and they were all 3.38 V. However they do experience 
reversible capacity fade. I discharged all the cells and Got 45amp hours the 
first time. The second cycle I got around 65 amp hours and it continued to 
increase for five cycles. On the last cycle all the cells measured Close to 100 
amp hours.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 12, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:


From: Cor van de Water via EV 
I also did tests on LiFePO4 cells and while self-discharge was low, I was able 
to prove from my measurements over many weeks, that there is was about a factor 
2 difference in self-discharge current between the best and worst cell. Sample 
size was over 40 cells.

This is what I have found as well. Brand new cells, all bought at the same time 
from a quality source are very similar. Their amphour capacity, internal 
resistance, and self-discharge rates are very close.

But cells from cheap or low-quality sources have a much broader spread in 
characteristics. Cells also get worse as they get old, or get cycled, or as the 
temperature changes. Differences between cells accumulate over time, getting 
worse and worse. You may get by without a BMS initially, but it gets needed 
more as the differences between cells grows Not having a BMS means shorter life.


This is exactly what the author of the quoted article found, that the capacity 
of the cells had not degraded, but the cells had gotten out of balance.

Yes. The BMS was too primitive to do its job of balancing the cells. Only 
having upper and lower voltage limits prevents against catastrophic failures; 
but does not compensate for differences between cells.


--
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--
Lee 

[EVDL] Article on BMS (was: Lithium drop in replacements.)

2018-05-11 Thread Bill Dube via EV

David,

Very nice plain language article on BMS's.
Thank you for posting it.

Bill D.


The battery I mentioned ("Dakota" brand) was advertised as having a true
balancing BMS.

Discussion of PCBs vs BMSes here:

http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/05/lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4.html

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lithium drop in replacements.

2018-05-11 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Paul,

Do you have any evidence of this or is it speculation?

(Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.)

Bill D


On 5/11/2018 12:47 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Thanks that was interesting. It’s more likely that the Dakota BMS was causing 
the imbalance with parasitic unbalanced loads, however.

Sent from my iPhone


On May 11, 2018, at 11:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:


On 10 May 2018 at 6:35, paul dove via EV wrote:

Do you have any evidence of these batteries failing because of out of balance
conditions or is that speculation

The battery I mentioned ("Dakota" brand) was advertised as having a true
balancing BMS.

Discussion of PCBs vs BMSes here:

http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/05/lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4.html

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

2018-05-08 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Lead-carbon has been around for 30 years in various forms. There is a 
good reason that lead-carbon has not been adopted by OEMs, RC modelers, 
cordless tool manufacturer, etc. They have high self-discharge issues, 
typical lead-acid sulfation issues, (even though some claim otherwise) 
and they don't seem to ever get into full production. Often investment 
scams, although some folk have really tried, none have succeeded in 
making a successful lead-carbon battery.


Bill D.


On 5/8/2018 7:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.  Are 
these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?  Lawrence 
Rhodes
   
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Re: [EVDL] Zivan charger setting with new pack

2018-04-30 Thread Bill Dube via EV
205 from 225 is not a significant change, as far as the charger timer 
setting goes. Should work just fine.

 I'm assuming the pack voltage will be the same, of course.

    Just curious, why aren't you moving up to a lithium-ion pack? Not a 
gigantic difference in price these days. They should last a lot longer 
and go farther.


Bill D.

On 5/1/2018 8:53 AM, hazemsedra via EV wrote:

Hello members,
My Crown 225 deep cycle pack(18-6v batteries)) that runs a 108v ford escort
finally needs replacing after 9 years.
I will replace the pack with Crown 205 amp hours batteries, same
manufacturer but less amp hours.
Do I need to send my zivan charger to the company to change the settings to
accommodate the lower amp hours of the pack?

I am hoping not to ship the charger to Zivan given some negative reviews
regarding turn around times.
Thanks
Hazem


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Re: [EVDL] DC-DC oddities continued

2018-04-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Could be a bad connection (or cell) in the pack, or pack wiring.
Voltage drops feeding the DC-DC and the output cuts back.
High load = big currents = big voltage drop on bad connections or weak 
cell(s)


Bill D.




On 4/28/2018 12:32 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Fri Apr 27 16:22:07 PDT 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

I'm going to do some work so I can hook up one of my Fluke DVM's and be able to 
see the display while driving.
Also switch it between AC and DC to help see how much noise there is on the 
line.

The Fluke meter shows the 12v battery voltage as holding pretty constant, so 
the little digital meter that is hooked up is showing bad results when the 
Zilla is humping out the power.

Most likely now have a noisy Zilla, sigh...


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Re: [EVDL] John Wayland on Netflix?

2018-04-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I _always_ do a reduced power warm-up pass, just to make sure everything 
is race ready, brakes are OK, the steering is OK, etc.
TV crews put pressure you to run full power, right off the trailer. Your 
safety is not their priority, or even any consideration.

I am glad no one was hurt.

Bill D.

 On 4/28/2018 11:07 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

Didn't use his driver.  Hadn't raced for 10 years.  Something broke.  Skid 
marks show one wheel hooking up causing a swerve to the left.  Disaster.   A 
bunch of horse pucky if you ask me.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] con-EV: koch-koolaid is getting downright stoopid

2018-04-11 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Charging time is on the same scale as ICE-refueling time, here in New 
Zealand. About 15 to 30 minutes, for top-off on a Leaf. They (Charge 
Net) are rolling out a network of fast DC chargers in NZ.
Many are at "petrol servos" (gasoline service stations). Some are 
located as shopping centers/malls.

https://charge.net.nz/

Just enough time to eat a "meat pie" and enjoy a "flat white" at the 
"servo". :-)


Meat pies are ubiquitous in NZ have no equivalent in the US. They are 
something akin to a pasty, but you can hold it in your hand while you 
are eating it. A large selection of filling is commonly available, 
including vegetarian, seafood, chopped steak and onion, etc. A flat 
white is somewhat similar to a caffè latte. More foamed milk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_pie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_white

Bill D. (Enjoying retirement in NZ :-) )

 On 4/12/2018 3:41 PM, Gail Lucas via EV wrote:
This all sounds totally illogical. Is it assumed that EV drivers do 
not buy snacks or soft drinks or use the washroom while traveling? All 
the gas stations would have to do is add a charging station or two and 
they would have the electric car people for longer impulse shopping 
sprees than they do the ICE folks since charging is slower.


Yes Bruce, stoopid!

P.S. Before there were ANY public charging facilities I often stopped 
at a convenience store and asked if I could plug in to their outdoor 
lighting or behind the soda machine. They were agreeable, once they 
figured out what I was asking, as long as I shopped while there.




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Re: [EVDL] Clare Bell, JB: interesting links

2018-03-19 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Whatever happened to Clair Bell?
She dropped off the grid around the EVS-16 or so.

Bill D.

On 3/20/2018 3:54 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

Way-way before JB was, Clare Bell

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Raptor-600-DC-Motor-Controller-on-Ebay-tp429551p429586.html

http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=437

http://www.evalbum.com/5306

Clare has done many good-EV-deeds long before I got involved with EVs. At
one point she was working at the Alameda-CA calstart hangar 20 for green
motor works (a SoCal conversion biz back before the automakers 'said' they
were going to make production EVs, and all the conversion EV biz
folded/closed down).

They were selling-off a Ford Escort StaWgn, that I bought to keep in the SF
area. I paid Clare to upgrade the 108VDC T-105 pack with US-125s, and
install a 4-gauge cable run to the rear trunk area for higher powered
charging (I was using a Zivan NG5 5kW charger, along with its on-board BC-20
L1 charger in parallel - I was the only one doing parallel charging back
then).

After I gathered my data, I put the EV up for sale in the SF area at my cost
(I did many EV-things back then at or below my cost). Months later, it had a
new SF area owner.

Later, I paid Clare to do some important work on my S-10 Blazer EV (after
the San Mateo converter I had been using sold his biz). I am grateful for
all the work she did as I really needed help to get those issues resolved.


On JB's personal (safe) web page [
http://www.straubel.com/
], the links to his Porsche conversion, and pusher go nowhere (they're as
good as dead-Jim). Which is why I grabbed what I could of what those pages
were and created a (safe) clone of them for archival purposes (so we didn't
JB's before-Tesla good-EV-deeds), see:

https://brucedp.neocities.org/jstraubel/

The evdl archive also has a post I made documenting when I first saw JB
driving his Porsche with his pusher (years ago when I was a hp-CE):
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Archived-clean-cloned-pages-of-former-jstraubel-site-944-EV-pushers-gen1-2-more-tp4684626.html




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
  http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Genset range extender

2018-03-06 Thread Bill Dube via EV
You really don't care about frequency. All you care about is staying 
below the maximum allowed battery voltage (or staying below whatever the 
signal on the BMS says is "to high".)


Thus, the generator speed (and the engine speed) can be whatever you 
wish it to be. Of course, you have to stay below the design limits for 
the generator rotor speed, but that is typically 3600 rpm or something 
close to that.


Large generators have some sort of field control, so you run the rpm up 
to the desired amount, then dial up the field current until the 
generator is either putting out the max current it is designed for, or 
the voltage has reach the max battery voltage.


Conversely, you can set the field current to some fixed value, and run 
the rpm up until you reach one of the above same limits.


Bill D.

On 3/6/2018 11:04 PM, George Tyler via EV wrote:

He only wants 30 kw, many engine could do this at lower rpm. Low rpm is not a 
problem as long as it is high enough to keep the oil pressure up and not cause 
vibration that may cause crankshaft failure.

-Original Message-
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
Sent: ‎5/‎03/‎2018 04:55 p.m.
To: "R. Sparks Scott" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Genset range extender

R. Sparks Scott  asked me to post this for him, as he's
not subscribed. He wrote:


Aside from the worn-out idea that impromptu series hybrids are
anything worth bothering with, John needs to know that his *diesel*
genset head is intended to be driven by a diesel engine, not a
gasoline engine. Why this matters is that all directly-driven
generator heads for diesels will be optimized for 1800 RPM at rated
output (for 60Hz), while gasoline (and LPG) heads will expect 3600
RPM.

Obviously, if he is intending on rectifying the output to DC, it
doesn't matter that the head won't need to be on-frequency of 60Hz,
but forcing a gas engine to lug along at lower RPMs to make the
voltage more-or-less correct is going to be a strain on the ICE and
probably give him a big hit in available peak voltage, and by
association, available current into his battery pack/motor.

My inclination would be to stop encouraging him until he understand
the dynamics of what he is proposing. Series hybrids don't work well
in the best of designs, and he's throwing together a collection of
incompatible components that are sure to disappoint.

That's a good point. While I've seen gasoline gensets that ran at 1800
RPM, most do indeed run at 3600 RPM. This makes them smaller (but
noisier). Gasoline engines need to run fast to generate their rated
horsepower.

But if he's driving it with a car engine, most of them will happily run
at 1800 RPM for hours on end. You just can't get anything near its rated
horsepower. For instance, it might require a "100 HP" engine to produce
30 HP continuously.

Projects like this are always a trade-off between the "right" way, and
the "expedient" way to do it. Using what you have, in unconventional
ways isn't perfect, but may be good enough to get by.



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Re: [EVDL] suspicious of a bad calb cell?

2018-02-07 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Probably the best plating to use would be Alodine (AKA Bonderite). Not 
terribly difficult to do. A bit pricey, but you would only have to coat 
a tiny area.
Alodine is the conductive, gold/brown plating used on aluminum aircraft 
parts. Great for corrosion prevention. Conducts very well (unlike 
anodizing.)
Abrasively clean the aluminum surface, slightly etch with AlumiPrep, 
rinse with distilled water, dip in Alondine, (or brush on,) rinse with 
distilled water. You could do it yourself, actually. I have done it 
myself with aircraft parts.
Unfortunately, Alodine is a chromate solution, which must be carefully 
contained. (Erin Brokovich became famous for suing on behalf of chromate 
pollution victims.)
As I understand it, they make non-chromate Alodine-like plating 
solutions. Might be worth looking into.

You buy Bonderite from Aircraft Spruce:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/categories/building_materials/bm/menus/cs/metalprepsupplies.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromate_conversion_coating

Bill D.

On 2/6/2018 11:44 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

Did you lightly sand (or Scotchbite) each terminal and apply a thin
coating of NoAlOx before connecting? No? Then you have to redo all the
connections. They will give you no end of grief. (Ask me how I know. 
:-) )


If you don't do this connection treatment, the dissimilar metals will
corrode, over heat, and behave badly in general. Often, the cell
terminals arrive with a lot of corrosion formed during shipping.


Bill has it right! I've had Thundersky, CALB, and GBS cells, and *all 
of them have at least one aluminum terminal. It is devilishly 
difficult to make reliable low-resistance connections to aluminum.


I've even wondered if there is some way to plate them with copper or 
nickel; or spot-weld some easier-to-connect metal tab to the terminals.




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Re: [EVDL] suspicious of a bad calb cell?

2018-02-05 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Did you lightly sand (or Scotchbite) each terminal and apply a thin 
coating of NoAlOx before connecting? No? Then you have to redo all the 
connections. They will give you no end of grief. (Ask me how I know. :-) )


If you don't do this connection treatment, the dissimilar metals will 
corrode, over heat, and behave badly in general. Often, the cell 
terminals arrive with a lot of corrosion formed during shipping.


Bill D.

On 2/5/2018 8:34 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Philip,

Another problem may be a bad connection between the cells, so that a
cell voltage is seen including the drop in the wire.
But yeah, you can have a bad cell as well, a quick way to check is to
watch what the BMS says during driving - does the bad cell
also drop quickly?
Another way to check if the BMS or the cell is a problem is to swap two
cells and re-connect the wires and BMS in the same way
so the cell is in a different spot according the BMS.
Success!
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of rash via EV
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 7:21 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: rash
Subject: [EVDL] suspicious of a bad calb cell?

Hello, I recently upgraded my lead-acid EV conversion to lithium,
specifically 46 CALB 72Ah cells. I've been conservative in my bms
settings, not allowing any cell to go above 3.55V or below 2.6V
(hopefully "conservative" limits with calb-published limits of 3.65 and
2.5 respectively). I took care when I got the batteries to balance them;
I've also been careful to not charge when the temp is below 0C. I've
been driving with them for about a month now and have been really happy
with the results so far (especially after shedding over a kilopound of
battery weight!) But just this week I've become suspicious of one
particular cell: now during charging its voltage rises significantly
faster than the other cells, and of course once it reaches 3.55V, my
charger pauses/ turns off, meaning the other cells don't get as much
charge as intended. Then all the cells find a "resting voltage" nearly
equal to each other (including the suspect cell).
But of course once charging resumes, the one cell still rises faster
than the rest.

Today I've had some luck turning down the current on the charger enough
so that the shunting in the BMS can (mostly) keep up, allowing the
remaining cells to charge. (Though this means of course that charging is
taking much
longer.) Is this a sign I got a bad cell? I also have a PowerLab8 (that
I haven't used in a long time), so I may experiment with it when I get
some time later in the week... These cells should still be under
warranty, so I can explore that route, but thought I'd get some feedback
here first; thanks!

Philip Rash
http://www.evalbum.com/3381

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Re: [EVDL] Question: EV with a 110v outlet with 2KW power rating?

2018-02-01 Thread Bill Dube via EV
You can only _continuously_ draw 80% of the maximum amperage out of any 
household circuit. (The wiring over heats.)
Since a large fraction of 115 volt outlets have a 15 amp breaker, (some 
have a 20 amp) you can only draw 15 x 115 x 0.8 = 1380 watts.

On a 20 amp, 20 x 115 x 0.8 = 1840 watts.

For a limited duty cycle (short time) you can draw the full amperage, 
but only for a very limited time.


That is why every 115v heater that you can buy in the store is rated at 
1600 watts, at the very most.
Doesn't matter how big or how fancy or how much they cost, they all are 
limited to 1600 watt output.


Bill D.

On 2/1/2018 1:59 PM, Dan Kegel via EV wrote:

Hi all.

question for the EV connoiseurs out there:

I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf with a ChaDeMo port.  Are there any
portable V2G units that can plug in and provide 2KW of power?
Alternately, are there any other EVs that support such a thing?

I saw such a thing at a Nissan booth at a recent event.
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/eco/pdfs/2012e_02.pdf
but it didn't look like it was aimed at mobile use.
And evidently they have a new system which would meet my needs:
http://www.nichicon-us.com/english/product_news/new173.html
but it's only available in Japan for now.

The application is a bounce house at a green fair; evidently those
need 2KW during inflation, and 1KW during operation
( see 
http://partytime-rentals.com/learning-center/bounce-house-power-requirements/
).

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: [EVDL] Two EV's to Give Away

2018-01-28 Thread Bill Dube via EV
One month too late for a charitable tax deduction. No $500 for the 
donation of a car. :-(

Ask your tax professional, but I believe the law has just changed.
Sorry.
 Bill D.

On 1/28/2018 2:27 PM, John Blair via EV wrote:

We are a four EV family now and that is two too many.  We had arranged to 
donate them to several schools, but they never followed through to pick them 
up. Now it is time to move them on to new homes. We will give each of them 
away.  Priority will be given to the earliest pickup. Our only request is that 
a good faith effort be made to put them back on the road as working EV’s and 
not simply part them out.  If we wanted to do that, we could easily donate them 
to a local charity who would scrap them and we would get a $500 tax deduction 
for each of them.  Both cars are conversions (not done by me) that were done 
with careful attention to detail. They come with notes and manuals to help with 
the maintenance.

Until about a year ago, we kept them charged and drove them a mile or two 
periodically and maintained while we waited for the school. After sitting for a 
year or so outside covered in tarps, they undoubtedly will need some TLC.  They 
both ran and we had fixed everything that we knew was wrong (except a slow leak 
in one tire). The odometer has been fixed in the Saturn. I don't know what the 
current range is. Both have all of the details on EVAlbum:

>
>

We are about 40 minutes west of Santa Rosa in the redwood forests of Northern 
California.  They will need to be towed with a trailer or maybe a dolly.  They 
are both currently registered with the California DMV as EV’s and as 
non-operated vehicles. If you have any questions or are interested, feel free 
to drop me an email.


John Blair
i...@jgblairphoto.com 
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[EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

2018-01-23 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Lee, I think this 98% recycled is a case of very carefully drawing the 
envelope. I believe it only accounts for batteries that make it though 
the front gate of the recycling facility.


Here is why:

According to the International Lead Association's figures, lead-acid 
batteries use 85% of all the lead produced form all sources. (This 
percentage goes up a touch with each passing year because lead is used 
in fewer other products.)
About 50% of the lead produced is mined, and 50% comes from recycled 
lead. This is also directly from the ILA figures.

This ~50% recycled fraction has been quite steady for quite a few years.
https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-recycling

If _none_ of the lead used for other than lead-acid batteries is 
recycled but ends up in the land fill, (not true, but bear with me) 
where is the remaining 35% of the lead used for lead acid batteries going?


Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries is _not_ being 
recycled. If they were recycled at 98%, there would be at least 83% of 
the lead production would be from recycled lead from lead-acid 
batteries.  Only 50% comes from recycled lead.


The figures just don't add up. At least 35% of lead-acid batteries are 
ending up in the land fill. Just doing basic mass balance accounting 
using the ILA figures.


Indeed, an entire EV's worth of batteries is more likely to end up at 
the recycler than an alarm battery, but the 98% I believe is "creative 
accounting" at best.


Bill D.


On 1/23/2018 11:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on 
lead acid batteries.


The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are 
huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which 
there is no safe exposure.


Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so 
can the materials in just about any battery.


The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. 
Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and 
procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. 
Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other 
battery comes close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as 
trash and wind up in landfills.




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Re: [EVDL] Another recommendation for a drive way protection circuit....

2018-01-09 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I have never understood why the NEC _requires_ an EV charging plug be 
"locking".

It makes no sense.

If you drive away (or the vehicle somehow rolls, is towed, or moves 
away) the plug should simply come out.


As it is now, the locking plug won't give, so the cord breaks, or worse, 
the charger rips from the wall, damaging the fixed wiring.


The plug should not be _required_ to lock into place. It would be far 
safer to simply have the plug come out when the vehicle moves and the 
cord is strained.


Bill D.


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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

2018-01-01 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I agree with Tom. As EV are slowly adopted, the grid will find ways to 
adapt. Always will and always has.


My state electric utility has asked customers to volunteer (with a nice 
cash incentive) to put "black boxes" on their air conditioning loads and 
electric water heaters.
The boxes turn off these loads, under the command of the utility, for a 
few minutes during peak load periods.
With the thermal inertia, you never notice your A/C was off for a few 
extra minutes.

Shaves the tops right off the peak loads on the grid quite nicely.
Little black boxes under remote control are the cheap solution. Everyone 
wins.


I would imagine that when EV charging loads become significant, they 
will do the same thing. It would be stupid not to.
Only makes sense. Costs very little and you leave the grid pretty much 
the same.
Utilities love it. You sell more kWhrs using the identical generation 
and distribution equipment. No upgrades whatsoever.
Only folks that volunteer have to do it, and save a bit of money. 
Everyone wins.

Simple simple. What's not to like?

The "grid overload" is simply a scare tactic campaign paid for by folks 
that will stand to lose by adoption of EVs. (Koch brothers?)


Bill D.


 On 1/1/2018 8:33 PM, Thos True via EV wrote:

Peri & All,

I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was being
pushed by mainstream media.
The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times since
the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the utilities
seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the device
at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.

Tom True








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Re: [EVDL] Solar trailer (a 1000-to-1 waste)

2017-12-29 Thread Bill Dube via EV

I agree 100%.
Folks forget that it takes significant energy to tow even a small 
trailer. Much more than one would think. Probably more energy than the 
panels produce, especially at highway speeds.


Best to leave them on the roof of your house, or put them on a "solar 
shed" for your car to park under at work.


Bill D.

On 12/29/2017 8:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Personally, I think a mobile array for a vehicle is a fools errand, or
maybe a pass-time for the independently wealthy.


Its sure is.  I have solar panels all over the roof of my two priuses.  I
tell people that it makes 0.1% economic sense to do it.

The smaller panels that fit the roof of a car cost TEN times as much per
watt as the big ones on my house.  And my house has ONE HUNDRED TIMES more
surface area.  Therefore the value of solar on my car is one thousand times
less practical.

ALso, WHen I tow even my small 6 foot solar trailer (300 watts) behind my
prius, my gas mileage goes down from 55 MPG down to 42 MPG.  Meanwhile it
is only producing enough power to gain only a single 1 MPG even on the best
summer day.

So again, the math makes no sense whatsoever.

The value to me of my solar panels is to have power in the field while
parked at camping and Ham radio events.

Makes NO SENSE for traction and propulsion.  See my solar car and trailer.
http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html

Now putting solar panels on top of an RV that is used 1% of the time and
spends the other 99% of the time plugged into one's own home grid-tied,
does make sense.  Since it is providing full retail electricity 99% of the
time while parked.

Bob, WB4PRR


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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

2017-12-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV

I tend to agree with Paul.
The installation of 120vac outlets are a tiny fraction of the price of 
the installation of L2 charging pedestals.
If you spread them around over many parking places, (like they do in the 
great white north for block heater outlets) there will be less 
competition and contention over them.
Keep in mind that a single 120vac 20 amp outlet can easily supply an EV 
with 50 or 60 or perhaps 70 miles of charge over a 8 hour workday. This 
covers 99% of commutes.


Level 2 or 3 may be what is sexy and flashy, but Level 1 is probably 
optimal for charging at work, given all the constraints. The ~$7k you 
would spend on installation a Level 2 charger pedestal would easily pay 
for 20 Level 1 outlets spread over 20 parking places.


Bill D.

On 12/14/2017 6:13 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I say put 120v outlets in every spot and let people park where they want.

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 13, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

Correct,
Green means "available" so you would instinctively expect an empty spot
at a green light.
I would suggest a slight change to the meaning of the colors:
Red = charging (no matter how fast/slow)
Yellow = charging ended, spot should be vacated as soon as possible
(grace timer)
Green = charging and grace timer ended, spot is available (even if full
EV still plugged in).

Anybody parked in a "green light" spot is suceptible to ticketing and
towing.
Grace time can be tuned to match need/demand, with appropriate signage.

When a "yellow" charging space is vacated, an EV can immediately plug in
and turn the
spot to "Red" again.
If a spot next to the EV charging spot is available and an EV arrives
that urgently needs a charge,
it should be perfectly fine to unplug a "Yellow" or "Green" charger.
Preferably he leaves a note at the car, how to contact him and how long
he needs to charge
before it is OK to unplug when the official EV charging spot is in use
again.

Note that it is possible to implement a max charging time with this as
well:
Towards the end of the max charge time the light turns yellow and when
the charge time
has expired, it stops charging but may allow an additional grace time
before the light
turns green again and you should be on your way (or moved out of the
spot at least).
At companies with high contention for too few spaces, it makes sense to
force everyone
to switch during lunch time (for example max 4 hours charging).

Many EVs already announce how long charging is going to take, so it
should be
no surprise how long one can leave the car before it needs to be moved.
Obviously it is user friendly if the charging station sends you a txt
when charging ends
and the grace time starts.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 1:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces


On 13 Dec 2017 at 13:08, Lawrence Harris via EV wrote:

I would love to see a big light on the top of the charge head that
goes green while charging, amber when the charger ramps down to the
end of charge and red when done.

Outstanding idea, but I'd recomment the exact opposite of the colors --
red for bulk charging, amber for absorption (last 20%), and green for
charged.

That's  because almost every other charger used on personal gadgets
(phones, cordless drills, and so on) uses those colors or something
similar. It's read for charging, green for done, and sometimes you get
yellow or flashing green during the absorption phase.  I don't think
I've ever seen any other charger that was lit up red when it was
finished, except for a couple that never changed color.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

2017-12-13 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Maybe someone will come up with a realistic, elaborately folded, paper 
origami "Denver boot" as a humorous reminder not to park where you are 
not supposed to.


An origami Denver boot might get their attention, or might not, but it 
certainly wouldn't make someone too angry, at least someone with an iota 
of humor.


Bill D.


On 12/13/2017 11:41 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I just let the police deal with it.  If possible nose in somewhere and plug in. 
 So far hasn't been a problem.  I guess I've been lucky or growing  conscience 
awareness of drivers is catching on.  Marking's and signs help.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Coolant immersed cells for XING EV's Modular Battery cooling

2017-12-13 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Looking at the data sheet, Novec 7100 or HCFC-225  would be a better 
choice than 7200.

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/199819O/3mtm-novectm-7200-engineered-fluid.pdf
Novec 7200 is flammable, while 7100 or HCFC-225  isn't. HCFC-225 has a 
boiling point a few degrees below the cell electrolyte while 7100 has a 
boiling point _just_ below that of the electrolyte in the cells.
(You would rather the coolant boil first, and remove the heat, than the 
electrolyte, and cause the cells to vent.)


Not a new idea at all. It has been tossed around for quite some time. 
Halotron (R123) was proposed for this exact propose awhile back. Other, 
less ozone depleting, substances have been considered, but flammability 
becomes an issue generally associated with low ozone depletion. However, 
corrosion is an issue that has to be taken into account, but is often 
forgotten until it makes itself painfully obvious. When you constrain 
the coolant to passages, instead of covering the entire battery, 
corrosion can be controlled by reducing the materials exposed to the 
coolant.


The ideal solution is reducing the internal resistance of the cells, 
which reduces the need for cooling and increases efficiency. That will 
eventually be the optimal solution, I suspect.


Bill D.

On 12/13/2017 2:47 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114188_new-approach-to-electric-car-battery-cooling-immerse-cells-in-coolant
New approach to electric-car battery cooling: immerse cells in coolant
Dec 8, 2017  Mark Stevenson

[image
https://images.hgmsites.net/med/xing-miss-r-lithium-ion-battery-pack_100635851_m.jpg
XING Miss R Lithium-Ion Battery Pack

https://images.hgmsites.net/med/xing-modular-battery-system_100635850_m.jpg
XING Modular Battery System
]

Regardless of how your vehicle is powered—whether it be an
internal-combustion engine or a battery pack powering an electric motor—most
powertrains have a common enemy: heat.

For Taipei-based XING Mobility, heat is a major concern for its
high-performance Miss R model as its battery cells need to rapidly discharge
to generate its maximum quoted output of 1,000 kilowatts (1,341-horsepower).

The more rapidly you discharge a battery, the more heat it generates—and
XING believes it has a solution to keep its fast-discharging battery pack
cool.

Instead of snaking coolant through lines and chambers within the battery
pack's case, XING is taking a wholly different approach by immersing its
cells in a non-conductive fluid with a high boiling point.

According to Charged EVs, the coolant is 3M Novec 7200 Engineered Fluid, "a
non-conductive fluid designed for heat transfer applications, fire
suppression and supercomputer cooling."

“The use of Novec Engineered Fluids to immersion-cool EV batteries is a
breakthrough application, addressing the critical performance needs of the
market in a new and disruptive way,” said 3M’s Michael Garceau to Charged
EVs.

XING's batteries take the form of 42 lithium-ion-cell modules that can be
put together to build larger battery solutions.

For the XING Miss R, the complete battery houses 4,200 individual 18650
lithium-ion cells encased in liquid-cooled module packs.

While XING plans to use the battery packs for its own vehicles, it said it
will also sell the battery solutions to other OEMs looking for energy
storage solutions.

READ MORE: Could water be the secret to faster electric-car battery
technology?

“The industrial vehicle market is primed for a conversion to electric
drivetrains due to functional needs, increasing emissions requirements and
public noise reduction,” said XING co-founder and CTO Azizi Tucker.

"The XING Battery System is an opportune solution for small- to
medium-volume vehicle makers, catering to a huge variety of shapes, sizes
and power requirements.”

XING also plans to offer other off-the-shelf components for fledgling EV
makers, such as torque-vectoring gearboxes, electric power kits, and
magnetorheological dampers.

The company projects its Miss R model should be capable of sprinting to 100
km/h in 1.8 seconds, reaching 200 km/h in 5 seconds, and hitting a top speed
of 270 km/h (168 mph).
[© 2017 Green Car Reports]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
  http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (never buy another AC unit)

2017-11-29 Thread Bill Dube via EV
The "mini split" type heat pumps and AC units that I have installed in 
my house have a single outside unit and multiple (2) inside units.


The inside units have a finned coil and a fan. The outside units have a 
finned coil, fan, compressor, and the control electronics. (They have 
variable frequency drives running _everything_.) The inside units 
typically mount near the ceiling on the wall.


Here is a link with pictures of a typical installation:
https://www.bobvila.com/articles/mini-splits/#.Wh-azHlrxpg

The ones with a high SEER rating are _unbelievably_ quiet. Less noise 
that a refrigerator. We often completely forget that they are on. Maybe 
45 dB with the fan set to maximum.


Typically, we set the fan speed to "automatic" so the fan speed varies 
with the demand on the system. The system slowly ramps up and down to 
meet the demand. All fans and the compressor are controlled by VFD's so 
nothing cycles on and off. You set the temperature on the remote and the 
system heats or cools to maintain that temperature in that room. The 
units each have there own remote and you can set the temperature of each 
room independently. (You can't set one room to heat and another to cool 
if the inside units share an outside unit.)


On the particular model we have, you can chose to set the temperature 
sensor on the remote, or on the wall unit, to control the wall unit. 
Thus, if you are working at your desk that is some distance from the 
wall unit, you set the remote to sense the temperature, and place the 
remote near you.


The high SEER demands that the temperature difference between the room 
and the finned coil be as low as practical. There is no reason to have 
120 F air coming out of the inside unit, unless you have set the desired 
room temperature that high. (I think the maximum room temperature set 
point is maybe 90 F.) The air coming out of the unit is maybe 5 or 10 
degrees different than the desired room temperature.


Folks that have these modern units absolutely love them. We bought one 
at first for the master bedroom and the office. After a year, we bought 
one for the other side of the house, and then bought one for the garage.


Bill D.




On 11/29/2017 10:13 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 29 Nov 2017 at 18:14, ROBERT via EV wrote:


A heat pump outputs a register temperature of approximately 90 F.  This
low a temperature blowing across your skin is not comfortable to a lot
a people.

I think this is less true of recent heat pumps.

I'd like to hear from someone who owns an EV with a heat pump -- how warm
does the air from the vents feel in the winter?

I think that many or most older heat pumps did have this annoyance.  It's
not an EV, but I knew someone who had a late-1990s GSHP (Waterfurnace brand)
at home.  The heating air from the vents always felt cool to me, meaning
that it was below body temperature. Ninety deg F would be quite believeable.

That's definitely not the case with my Mitsubishi mini-split from 2013.
Although I haven't measured its outlet temperature in heating mode, most of
the heating seasons it feels quite warm, almost hot.  So it has to be well
above body temperature.  As the outdoor temperature falls, its outlet
temperature declines too.  However, it stays noticeably above body
temperature down to an outdoor temperature of around -15 deg C.

Thus I see no reason that an EV heat pump would have to produce air that
feels cool under most conditions.  For the times that it did, I'd expect it
to have auxiliary resistive heat.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

2017-11-28 Thread Bill Dube via EV

The efficiency never drops below that of a resistive heater.

They don't do their magic much below ~10 Fahrenheit, but they will work 
to below zero. They actually have a resistive heater built into the 
outside unit to defrost the coils if they build up ice. I have two heat 
pumps on my house in Colorado and one on the garage. They have always 
worked, even on the coldest days.


BTW
There is heat in air all the way to absolute zero. (-459.67 F)  At this 
point, it contains no (zero) heat. The air turns completely to a solid 
below about 63 Kelvin (About -350 F) so you wouldn't care. :-)


Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 9:11 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.

As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever 
smaller amount of heat.


Al


On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps. 
"How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the 
common sense question as well...)
Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a 
resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even 
a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.




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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

2017-11-28 Thread Bill Dube via EV
You can look up "How to install a mini split" on YouTube. The units 
typically come with poorly translated,  but still very useful, DIY 
installation instructions.


It is best if you have a gauge set and a vacuum pump, but if you are 
careful and detail oriented, you can use the "purge and bleed method." 
Just ordinary tools are required for this method. I have heard it works 
pretty well, actually. The leak detection is a bit more tricky, however, 
as you have to do a partial fill, check with soapy water for leaks, and 
then finish the purge and completely fill.


I have a gauge set and a vacuum pump. You can rent a vacuum pump in some 
tool rental stores. Gauge sets are ~ $30 or so on Ebay. Pull a vacuum 
for ~30 minutes then leak check by valving off and checking the vacuum 
on the gauge set after awhile for leak down. If no leaks, then you fill 
from the outside unit. This is the standard "with proper tools" method.


Cleanliness and careful workmanship are important to avoid leaks in the 
tubing. You have to know how to flare copper tubing properly, tighten 
flare fittings properly, and bend thinwall copper tubing without kinking 
it. You will need an assistant to help hang the inside unit. "Seasoned 
mechanic" is what I would rate the needed skill level at.


The outside unit comes pre-charged with enough R410A to fill the inside 
unit(s) and connective plumbing. If you leak checked well, then there is 
no need for additional refrigerant.


Ebay link for 18000 BTU 21 to 23 SEER unit for *$999*, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112410406169

You can easily heat/cool  a 24' x 24' insulated garage with this size 
unit. (1.5 ton unit = 18000 BTU)


Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 9:07 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Tue Nov 28 20:03:14 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car
garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the
energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less
than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost
considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so
you must pay for that.)
SEER Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

I've been tempted by those for my shop office - but you do have to hire a 
refrigeration guy to do the coolant.


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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

2017-11-28 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps. "How 
is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the common 
sense question as well...)
Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a 
resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even a 
bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.


I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car 
garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the 
energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less 
than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost 
considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so 
you must pay for that.)

SEER Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

Ebay link for 18000 BTU 21 to 23 SEER unit for $999, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112410406169

Bill D.




On 11/28/2017 8:00 PM, Rod Hower via EV wrote:

I had to look this up on Wikipedia since a 100% efficient resistive heater is hard 
to beat, but I guess I didn't understand that the heat pump is getting added energy 
from the environment.  "
Heat energy naturally transfers from warmer places to colder spaces. However, a heat 
pump can reverse this process, by absorbing heat from a cold space and releasing it 
to a warmer one. Heat is not conserved in this process and requires some amount of 
external energy, such as electricity. In heating, ventilation and air conditioning 
(HVAC) systems, the term heat pump usually refers to vapor-compression refrigeration 
devices optimized for high efficiency in both directions of thermal energy transfer. 
These heat pumps can be reversible, and work in either direction to provide heating 
or cooling to the internal space.Heat pumps are used to transfer heat because less 
high-grade energy is required than is released as heat. Most of the energy for 
heating comes from the external environment, only a fraction of which comes from 
electricity (or some other high-grade energy source required to run a compressor). 
In electrically-powered heat pumps, the heat transferred can be three or four times 
larger than the electrical power consumed, giving the system a coefficient of 
performance (COP) of 3 or 4, as opposed to a COP of 1 for a conventional electrical 
resistance heater, in which all heat is produced from input electrical energy.Heat 
pumps use a refrigerant as an intermediate fluid to absorb heat where it vaporizes, 
in the evaporator, and then to release heat where the refrigerant condenses, in the 
condenser. The refrigerant flows through insulated pipes between the evaporator and 
the condenser, allowing for efficient thermal energy transfer at relatively long 
distances.[5] "
  


 On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 8:42 PM, Bill Dube via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
  


  If you what to get quite fancy, modern OEMs use a heat pump run with a
small variable frequency drive. About 4x the efficiency of a resistive
heater. No joke, and that is a serious increase in range in the winter.
No doubt, you can get a Leaf compressor cheap in the bone yard.

By adding the proper valving, you have the bonus of air conditioning,
but that is even more of a project. The good thing is, you can reuse the
cars existing air conditioning condensor and evaporator and some of the
A/C plumbing.

It can get quite complicated, however, and a resistive ceramic type
heater core is, no doubt, the simplest option. I'd opt for a "high/low"
switch (series-parallel?) on two ceramic heaters, or some sort of
thermostat on the outgoing air from the heater(s).

Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 4:33 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

Respectfully, when I did Civicwithacord, the goal was defrosting the windshield 
effectively, not keeping me warm. Yanking out the dash to install the ceramic 
heater in the old fluid core housing was easily the biggest b---h of the 
conversion, but the time and look and safety was well worth it!!

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat 
fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...


On Nov 28, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Bill Dennis via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.  But I think if I'd taken
the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.

Bill



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Re: [EVDL] Heater

2017-11-28 Thread Bill Dube via EV
If you what to get quite fancy, modern OEMs use a heat pump run with a 
small variable frequency drive. About 4x the efficiency of a resistive 
heater. No joke, and that is a serious increase in range in the winter. 
No doubt, you can get a Leaf compressor cheap in the bone yard.


By adding the proper valving, you have the bonus of air conditioning, 
but that is even more of a project. The good thing is, you can reuse the 
cars existing air conditioning condensor and evaporator and some of the 
A/C plumbing.


It can get quite complicated, however, and a resistive ceramic type 
heater core is, no doubt, the simplest option. I'd opt for a "high/low" 
switch (series-parallel?) on two ceramic heaters, or some sort of 
thermostat on the outgoing air from the heater(s).


Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 4:33 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

Respectfully, when I did Civicwithacord, the goal was defrosting the windshield 
effectively, not keeping me warm. Yanking out the dash to install the ceramic 
heater in the old fluid core housing was easily the biggest b---h of the 
conversion, but the time and look and safety was well worth it!!

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat 
fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...


On Nov 28, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Bill Dennis via EV  wrote:

I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.   But I think if I'd taken
the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.

Bill




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Liaoning Ruixiang RX1E 2seat e-aircraft w/ improved 2hr flight time

2017-11-19 Thread Bill Dube via EV

This is very impressive.

Electric airplanes are the next logical step

Bill D.


On 11/19/2017 12:40 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-11/02/content_34016129.htm
China's 1st electric plane makes maiden flight
Nov 2, 2017 - ... its maiden flight on Wednesday, extending the single
flight time to two hours from ... A ground staff member checks the battery
of the RX1E-A ...
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/img/attachement/jpg/site1/20171102/484d7ec8089d1b64bc4015.jpg
...
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-11/01/c_136720964.htm
Advanced version of China's first electric plane makes maiden flight ...
Nov 1, 2017 - A pilot checks the RX1E-A, a two-seater aircraft designed by
... maiden flight on Wednesday, extending the single flight time to two
hours from ...
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-11/01/136720964_15095849816301n.jpg
...
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21150/China_Test_flies_Electric_Plane_for_2_hours_With_600_Kg_Take_off_Weight
China Test-flies Electric Plane for 2 hours With 600 Kg Take-off Weight
Nov 4, 2017 - The two-seat plane, designated as the RX1E-A, achieved a
flight time of two hours. With a maximum takeoff weight of 600 kilograms and
a ...
http://www.defenseworld.net/uploads//news/big/china_1509774637.jpg
...
[videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbV24DciNLU
The RX1E-A, the improved version of China's first electric plane, the ...
1:46
Nov 2, 2017 - Uploaded by News News
China's electric flight made its first flight. The RX1E-A, the improved
version of China's first electric ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRHWKaYlSeA
china test flies electric plane for 2 hours with 600 kg take off ...  ...
2:33
Nov 5, 2017- Uploaded by Defence Tube
The two-seat plane, designated as the RX1E-A, achieved a flight time of two
hours. With a maximum takeoff ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10OUdKw0wWo
China's 1st electric plane makes maiden flight - 0:55
Nov 3, 2017 - Uploaded by Sehar Tv
China's first electric plane made its maiden flight on Wednesday, extending
the single flight time to two hours ...
]
...
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=35164
China Test Flies Improved Electric Airplane
Nov 14, 2017  Flight time of RX1E improved from 45 minutes to 120 minutes (2
hours), opening up wider utilization possibilities from aerial photography
to tourism and  extended flight training ...
http://evworld.com/press/rx1e_flighttest780x520.jpg
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liaoning_Ruixiang_RX1E
The Liaoning Ruixiang RX1E is a Chinese two-seat electric aircraft, designed
by the Liaoning ... The launch customer was the Liaoning Ruixiang General
Aviation Co., which will employ the aircraft in the flight training role.
... Crew: one; Capacity: one passenger; Length: 6.58 m (21 ft 7 in);
Wingspan: 14.5 m (47 ft 7 in) ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
  http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Slow due to 96V pack?

2017-09-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV

On 9/9 I wrote:

>>> I seem to recall that the minimum input voltage for a Zilla is 72 
volts.
Might be sagging the pack to 72 volts and that is that is simply amps it 
puts out at that voltage.

>>>

Seems pretty straightforward. You just have to read the posts in the thread.

All PWM controllers have _some_ lower voltage limit.
The internal logic circuitry and the gate drivers have a power supply 
that has a lower threshold of operation, if nothing else.


The controller in question was indeed a Zilla. The pack was indeed 96 
volts of lead-acid batteries. This leaves ~24 volts of headroom voltage 
sag above the cut off.


>>>

You also mentioned that you couldn't imagine a lead-acid battery putting 
out more than 900 amps.


There are many high-performance lead-acid AGM's that will easily put out 
more than 1000 amps. A single 78 gram BolderTech cell will put out 1000 
amps. An Optima battery has 900 _cold_ cranking amps, and will put out 
far more than 1000 amps when loaded to half/voltage.




I believe Mark Twain said:

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and 
remove all doubt."


Bill D.



On 9/14/2017 4:03 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I agree but that is not what was claimed.

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 14, 2017, at 4:57 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:


On 14 Sep 2017 at 18:10, paul dove via EV wrote:

There is no voltage adjustment on input voltage in any motor controller I ever
used.

EVERY controller I've ever used has had some kind of undervoltage limit,
though in many cases it wasn't easily adjustable.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator


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Re: [EVDL] Slow due to 96V pack?

2017-09-09 Thread Bill Dube via EV

I seem to recall that the minimum input voltage for a Zilla is 72 volts.
Might be sagging the pack to 72 volts and that is that is simply amps it 
puts out at that voltage.


On 9/9/2017 8:14 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Fri Sep 08 21:57:43 PDT 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

There is both a battery low voltage limit and a motor high voltage limit.
There is also a motor current limit and a battery current limit.

You need to set all four to the appropriate values.

yes, I know.  Just forgot to list those Motor values as they are set to be 
irrelevant.
1000A and 150V.
And I was reporting Battery Amps of course.

I'm pretty sure now that it's just too low a voltage pack.  200 Batt amps was 
the max I could pull.
The GC batts are basically unused - but are a couple years old, and have had 
battery maintainers connected for that time.

I'm betting he has a Z1K LV - so that will limit how hi a voltage we can switch 
to when we switch to Lithium.
(also dealing with it having 2, 10A 48V chargers - one of which is dead, so you 
have to switch the other charger back and forth between pack halves.  sigh.)
This guy can't afford a bunch of upgrades immediately though.


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Re: [EVDL] Slow due to 96V pack?

2017-09-08 Thread Bill Dube via EV

There is both a battery low voltage limit and a motor high voltage limit.
There is also a motor current limit and a battery current limit.

You need to set all four to the appropriate values.

You never said if you were reading battery current or motor current. 
Makes a bit of difference. Also, it would be useful to know the battery 
voltage under load.


Bill D.

On 9/8/2017 9:51 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

I'm helping a guy with a used conversion he just bought.
It's a S-10 with 96V of Golf Cart batteries, Zilla 1K, and a 8 or 9" motor.
Even fully charged - it's acceleration is poor.
I was never able to get it to draw more than 200 Amps in any gear at any speed.
(Zilla limit is set to 500)
About 18KW max.

Is this likely to be just because it's such a low voltage pack?

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[EVDL] Eva and the KillaJoule post the top speed

2017-09-01 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Hi EVDL listers,

   Eva and the rest of our hard working land speed team posted the top 
mph (244 mph) for the BMST event  at Bonneville yesterday.


    _Wicked_ heat (0ver 100 F) on the salt took its toll on the vehicle 
and on the team.


    Read all about it on:

https://www.facebook.com/EvaHakanssonRacing



--- Top time of the meet!!! 244.122 mph/392.8 km/h  ---
We took the "top time of the meet" at Bonneville Motorcycle Speed 
Trials! Yay! Of the 150+ entrants, our run at 244.122 mph (392.8 km/h) 
was the fastest of them all! Can you believe that a battery powered 
motorcycle was faster than all the internal combustion entrants?!  The 
future is definitely here!


I can't thank my awesome crew enough for doing their very best in the 
insane heat (100 deg F/37 deg C) and blasting sun every day! We didn't 
quite get to a new record because of the heat, but we learned a lot and 
we will go home and make new plans. Our overall goal is still to build 
the world's fastest motorcycle, period. Expect more details over the 
coming months.


Thank you (from left to right in the photo on facebook):
Frank John, Sam Elliott, Amy Elliott, Mike Stockert, Alicia Kelly, Koen 
Matthys, Bill Dube, Kent Singleton, Bill Clapp, Kevin Smith (not in 
picture), Katie Collins (not in picture), Steve Ciciora (not in 
picture), and Rae Ciciora (not in picture). Thank you also to the 
visiting photographers Orjan Ellingvag and Vegard Aase.


>>








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[EVDL] Self discharge never sleeps (was: Curtis 1238-6501...)

2017-08-09 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Self discharge has an _extremely_ strong function of temperature.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge

It is also a function of cell health, age, past abuse, etc. The list of 
factors that alter the rate of self-discharge is seeming endless.


Because it is such a strong function of temperature, small variations in 
the temperature of each the many cells in a high voltage pack can cause 
large imbalance because "self-discharge never sleeps".  It chews away on 
the cells 24-7, regardless of whether they charging or discharging or 
simply open circuit. This is a problem because the end cells (that have 
a thick conductor to the outside world,) and cells on the outside edge 
of the pack, have a different thermal environment than do the inner-most 
cells. The temperature of the outside cells (and the end cells) is often 
starkly different than the inner cells. The self discharge is thus 
greatly different, and is typically dependent on the placement of the 
cell within the pack, and the difference between the outside temperature 
and the average pack temperature.


If your BMS happens to have some sort of cell voltage monitor or some 
sort of LED indicators on the cells themselves, this spacial imbalance 
becomes readily apparent. You can literally see the temperature 
variation that manifests itself as a SOC imbalance across the pack. You 
can watch the LEDs on perimeter of the pack light up before the LEDs on 
the inside of the pack when the outside temperature is cooler than the 
pack temperature. When the outside is warmer than the pack, the opposite 
is observed. It is like a topographic map of the cell temperature since 
the last charge. Even if the cell temperature is uniform at the time you 
actually charge and observe, the BMS LEDs will tell the tale of the cell 
temperature history since the previous full charge.


What is particularly insidious, is that contact resistance of the 
terminals, and internal resistance, also greatly effect the temperature 
of individual cells and thus elevate the self-discharge of those 
specific cells. This is why bad connections cause chronic cell imbalance 
and "weak" cells get out of balance. These cells run hotter than the 
rest, and the self-discharge skyrockets.


Bill D.

On 8/8/2017 6:23 PM, Hoegberg via EV wrote:

Hi

LFP:
You might with some(all?) LFP even find a slight hysteresis in pack voltage, at 
exactly the same SOC..

  (most visible if you are in the 30-70% SOC-zone)
depending on ..if you have had a regen or a discharge pulse as your last event,
then the no load voltage seems not to be exactly the same, at the same SOC.
A higher rest voltage if you did a charge/regen pulse compared to if you just 
did a very short discharge.

I agree with the others, count Ah is the way ot go to know the SOC % in the 
flat part of the discharge curve,

Also my experience was, that decent cells dont have any / a lot of self 
discharge to balance out when in normal use, only milliamps might be needed 
over time, so if they are well (top)balanced once they seems to stay well 
balanced. But if the cells are damaged / have mfg problems from the begining 
then it might be a different situation,

Regarding balancers maximum current:
  we had a 5 Amp as the charger minimum current, so we did a pulse charge 
instead of use large balance currents,

So if one cell reach the "balancing" voltage then we can just stop the charger, 
and wait for that cell to reach its lower voltage, with only 100mA or so as balancer 
discharge current, then we re-enable the charger(5Amp) until any cell(s) again reach the 
balance-start voltage.

If you dont have any cell voltage monitoring , or any kind of signal / feedback 
from the balancers, then it might be tricky to do this, I dont have any good 
solution to shut of the charger in time if we dont know when we have a problem. 
(other than to use a lower charge current than your balancers can handle, but 
if one balancer do fail, then you will probably overcharge that cell later)

  I would prefer to use some kind of good cell voltage monitoring so you can 
get a warning in time if some cell go to low or to high, and also use it to 
shut of/cut down the charger, or cut back on the trottle if some of the cells 
get to low when driving.

in my opinion that should be a minimum when charging a large expensive pack..of 
more than 4 cells in series. :-)

If we only use the full pack voltage for the charger to decide whan to go in to constant 
voltage mode, then we can get in troubles, for example if one cell in the pack reach 
"full" and lift off almost like a capacitor, long before all the others have 
start to climb up faster in the end, so if all the other cells that still are the flat 
and lower voltage region the charger will give the pack and the already full cell its 
maximum current. Not good.
  
For example:

if we use 3.60 V as the chargers maximum cell voltage * 25 cells = 90 volt
what now if one cell is full 

[EVDL] Voltage SOC on LFP (was Curtis 1238-6501 State of Charge)

2017-08-08 Thread Bill Dube via EV
It is difficult or perhaps even impossible to determine the SOC on 
LFP from voltage measurements alone. At least to do it with any 
accuracy. You can measure the temperature on each cell in addition to 
voltage to _perhaps_ get a better handle on the SOC, but still you 
can't get a very accurate SOC.


From a practical point of view, it is easier and cheaper to count 
the amp-hours in a single place, than to make very precise voltage 
and temperature measurements on every cell in a high-voltage pack. 
That is why it is done that way universally in OEM cars.


Bill D.

At 10:15 AM 8/8/2017, you wrote:

paul dove via EV wrote:

Sure you can. Voltage is the only way to discern SOC.
You just can't measure accurately under load. You have to measure 
open circuit voltage.

www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/9/11/900/pdf


This paper mainly discusses the higher-voltage Li-Ion cells, which 
have a larger voltage change between full and empty.


For the LiFePO3 cells being discussed here, the voltage change is 
much smaller. As Bill says, the change is so small that it can't be 
reliably measured outside of laboratory conditions and precisions 
instruments. Other factors, such as age, temperature, manufacturing 
variations, and the accuracy of the equipment play a larger factor.


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Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1238-6501 State of Charge

2017-08-08 Thread Bill Dube via EV
In LFP, temperature influences voltage more than SOC in the region of 
20% to 80% SOC. The voltage changes just a tiny amount between 20% and 
80% SOC.


Basically, if the voltage changes it is more likely to be due to a 
change in temperature, than a change in SOC.


Indeed, you could measure the temperature of each cell, along with the 
voltage, to tease out the SOC, but you need the average internal 
temperature of the cell, rather than the external temperature of the 
cell, and you need a very accurate measure of voltage. It is way simpler 
and cheaper to count amps.



On 8/7/2017 2:31 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Sure you can. Voltage is the only way to discern SOC.
You just can't measure accurately under load. You have to measure open circuit 
voltage.
www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/9/11/900/pdf



   From: Willie via EV 
  To: Matthew Quitter via EV 
  Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 9:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1238-6501 State of Charge




On 08/06/2017 07:38 PM, Matthew Quitter via EV wrote:

Hi Guys,

My 1238-6501 Curtis controller gives very different SOC % for similar
voltages.

For example I've recorded a pack voltage of 82.2 and had the Curtis show
22%, 31%, 43%.

The pack is made up of 25 Thundersky 160Ah batteries.

With LFP cells, you can't accurately infer SOC from voltages in the
middle of the range.  The voltage/SOC curve is too flat.
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Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1238-6501 State of Charge

2017-08-07 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Looking at the instructions for the QNBBM battery balancers, they appear 
to be able to balance the battery pack and handle a continuous current 
of 6 amps. It that correct? Do I have the right model?


If I have the correct model, and they can take 6 amps, then you should 
be able to set your charger up to balance your pack. You need to be able to:


1) Set your charger to charge at 6 amps or less
2) Set your charger to a maximum voltage of 90 volts or so.
3) Put the whole thing on a timer.

Basically, to balance your pack, you should run your charger at some 
current below the 6 amps that the QNBBM balancers will handle. (or make 
some sort of low current charger for balancing.) Run this low current 
through the pack until all the cells are above 3.45 to 3.5 volts. Be 
careful _never_ to allow any cells to go above ~3.9 volts. You are done!


You really don't want this set up to run unattended. You likely want to 
put some sort of wind up timer on the circuit, because some day you will 
run it and forget that it is running.

Like this one:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#7014k9/=18ud5en

Bill D.



On 8/7/2017 9:58 AM, Matthew Quitter via EV wrote:

Thanks Bill, sorry I'll try and give you more information.

I'm using a Zivan NG3 charger and don't have a BMS at the moment, just a
bunch of QNBBM cell balancers.

Previously I stopped the charge manually when the Curtis was saying 100%.
The Zivan also displays a charging progress and it would also be at 100%.
But lately the Curtis is saying 30% when the Zivan is showing 80% complete
and some of the cells are starting to jump up to 4V during that phase of
the charge. Whenever a cell goes over 4V I've been stopping the charge and
allowing the cell balancers to even out the pack again.

Is there anything other information I should be providing?

Thanks for your help.

Matthew




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[EVDL] Private note Re: Curtis 1238-6501 State of Charge

2017-08-07 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Michael,

Private note.

I would charge my A123 26650 cells fully, and heat them up to 70 Celsius 
(160 F) and maintain that temperature all day in my drag bike. I did 
this for _years_ will no issues. The cells would reach a peak 
temperature of 90 to 100 Celsius (212 F) at the end of each run. We 
would wait 20 minutes until they returned to 70 C, then recharge. We did 
this routinely.


The calendar life is very much a function of temperature, and I was very 
much chewing away at the calendar life by heating the cells. Not 
"instant death" like you describe by any means.


The specific cell chemistry makes a huge difference as not all li-ion 
cells, or even all LFP cells, have the same chemistry.


The formula 1 "KERS" cells are _designed_ to run continuously at 75 
Celsius. They are LFP.


Bill D.


On 8/7/2017 5:59 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

The surest way to destroy a pack of LFP cells is to fully charge them and
let then get hot as in over 100F.

Can you tell us the number of cells and their parallel series
configuration? Then specific recs can be made.

You may want to consider cutting of charging before fully charged state is
reached and never let them sit in a hot place if you have charged them to a
high SOC.

The problem is the positive electrode becomes very reactive with the
electrolyte when fully charged and temperature sets off a destructive
process.

I speak from experience, but also researching it. There is a long and
interesting video on YouTube of professor Jeff Dahn a long time battery's
researcher, discussing his. Try searching Jeff Dahn Waterloo lithium or
similar. It was a lecture he gave at Waterloo University. Dahn is an
electrochemistry at Dalhousie University in Novelty Scotia.

On Aug 7, 2017 3:00 AM, "Matthew Quitter via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:


Thanks guys... but if the charger is turning off at a fixed voltage how do
I get more power into the pack?



On 7 Aug 2017, at 05:02, Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

I agree. Voltage on LFP cells is useless for determining the SOC.
The voltage is very constant except at near 100% SOC and at 0% SOC.
You really need information about the middle, and voltage doesn't give

any clue about that.

You need to count the amp-hours, like with an E-meter or a Cycle-Analyst.

Bill D.


On 8/6/2017 7:00 PM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 08/06/2017 07:38 PM, Matthew Quitter via EV wrote:
Hi Guys,

My 1238-6501 Curtis controller gives very different SOC % for similar
voltages.

For example I've recorded a pack voltage of 82.2 and had the Curtis

show

22%, 31%, 43%.

The pack is made up of 25 Thundersky 160Ah batteries.

With LFP cells, you can't accurately infer SOC from voltages in the

middle of the range.  The voltage/SOC curve is too flat.

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Re: [EVDL] Curtis 1238-6501 State of Charge

2017-08-06 Thread Bill Dube via EV

I agree. Voltage on LFP cells is useless for determining the SOC.
The voltage is very constant except at near 100% SOC and at 0% SOC.
You really need information about the middle, and voltage doesn't give 
any clue about that.


You need to count the amp-hours, like with an E-meter or a Cycle-Analyst.

Bill D.

On 8/6/2017 7:00 PM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 08/06/2017 07:38 PM, Matthew Quitter via EV wrote:

Hi Guys,

My 1238-6501 Curtis controller gives very different SOC % for similar
voltages.

For example I've recorded a pack voltage of 82.2 and had the Curtis show
22%, 31%, 43%.

The pack is made up of 25 Thundersky 160Ah batteries.


With LFP cells, you can't accurately infer SOC from voltages in the 
middle of the range.  The voltage/SOC curve is too flat.

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Re: [EVDL] JDL404 AH Meter power draw?

2017-07-23 Thread Bill Dube via EV
As I recall, there is a setting on the Emeter to only light the display 
(and draw most of the 12 v mA) when the pack amps is above some 
threshold value, plus or minus.

I recall it is the "auto display mode" that you want to set.
Makes a big difference. If nothing is changing, you don't need to see 
anything.


Bill D.

On 7/23/2017 9:04 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Even the continuous draw of 80mA by the Emeter will drain my truck's small 12v 
battery, so i have rewired it to the contactor coil power, meaning that the 
Emeter is only powered when either driving or charging, not when parked. No 
more dead batteries.
Cor


On Jul 23, 2017, at 7:49 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

From: Mike Scott via EV 

A small solar panel could supply that 300 mA easily with hardly any work at
all...

300ma 24/7 is going to require a fairly large panel. I have a 12" x 9" PV panel 
that delivers 250ma *peak* (direct sun) on my Prius to keep the 12v battery charged. With 
night, cloudy days, and the non-optimum angle of the sun, it delivers less than 20ma 
average. So my guess is that you'd need several square feet of PV panels to get 300ma 
average.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Rudman Bus Display

2017-07-23 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Hi Barry,

I have one of these. I use a laptop to scan the Rudman boards, so I 
never got around to connecting the small touch screen display. Make me 
an offer.


Bill D.

On 7/23/2017 5:06 PM, Barry Oppenheim via EV wrote:

Does anyone know of a source for a new or used Rudman Bus Display?
Manzanita Micro does not appear to sell them anymore.

Thanks,
Barry
www.JustAnotherEVConversion.blogspot.com
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Re: [EVDL] 120 volts items powered by pack voltage

2017-07-09 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Even though you can run these devices on DC, the switches on these 
appliances are not suitable for DC, only AC. You risk a fire.
You can close the switch just fine on, say, your hairdryer, but when you 
attempt to turn it "off", the DC will often simply arc across the 
switch, and current will continue to flow. This arc will start a fire.


AC turns off and switches polarity 120 times per second, which 
extinguishes the arc when switches and fuses open. DC is steady with not 
breaks or reversals.


You get a small warning when this happens. The switch will make a small 
"hiss" and the appliance only partially shuts off. Turn the switch back 
on and pull the plug. There will be an arc at the plug and you may avert 
a fire. The switch is typically toast, however.


DIY EV conversions often ran into this problem. Folks would (attempt to) 
use a hairdryer for heat and defrost. They would get more heat than they 
bargained for when they tried to switch it off. :-)


Bill D.

On 7/9/2017 5:27 AM, ken via EV wrote:

  I have 2 scooter s 22 and 24 cells. I hocked onto the pack with 120 volt
plug in . I was very please to find out I could run 120 led bulbs, 120
volt motors with cumutators, like drill, skill saw, jig saw, hair dryer,
etc... !!

Caution! watch your pack voltage and use the power tools LIGHTLY as the
voltage is lower and could burn out motors. this count be a great emerency
helper!!  and a led bulb could run for weeks . Even the old compack
flouresnt bulbs ran fine.

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[EVDL] Nice video of Eva and the KillaJoule

2017-06-01 Thread Bill Dube via EV

EV Listers,

BMW has compiled a _very_ artistic video clip from our 
collection videos of Eva and our electric sidecar the KillaJoule on 
the salt flats.


https://www.facebook.com/BMWMotorrad/videos/10155238931928467/ 



(Just click "not now" at the annoying facebook signin plea.)

Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

2017-05-30 Thread Bill Dube via EV
It is important to keep in mind that an e-bike (and a motorcycle) are a 
"brick" aerodynamically. That is, e-bikes have a very high drag 
coefficient, like 0.5 or more. There is not much you can do about it, 
besides things that are unacceptable to most bicycle riders like 
enclosures and recumbent riding position, etc. You could also go slow. :-)


Most e-bike drive systems these days are amazingly efficient. Like 85% 
or better. That remaining 10 or 15% really won't make that much 
difference in the range and performance. The main "inefficiency" is 
aerodynamic and is unavoidable _if_ you want to stick with a 
conventional looking bicycle that you ride in the conventional position.


Bill D.

On 5/30/2017 10:28 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

ken via EV wrote:
  I have a Bike E with a 20" rear wheel I want to put a 36 volt at 
500 to

1000 watt hub motor there but I want it RPM effecint  for 20 mph. where
do i find such a wheel at reasonable price.


I also have a Bike-E, and have thought of electrifying it. But its 
handling is such that I wouldn't feel comfortable with such a big 
motor. Keeping it down to 20 mph is a good idea!


Note that PM motor efficiency tends to peak strongly near full power. 
At light load, they are much less efficient, because you have full 
magnetic losses all the time. So it may be better efficiency-wise to 
use a smaller motor and gearing to achieve the best speed/efficiency 
tradeoff.


My Bike-E has a 7-speed rear hub, and of course a very long chain. My 
thought was to mount the motor under the seat, with a freewheel 
sprocket to the chain. That way, it gets the benefit of the gearing. 
The freewheel means you're not spinning the motor when it's not being 
used while pedaling.




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Re: [EVDL] EV air conditioning/heat (newswire posts for 20170526)

2017-05-26 Thread Bill Dube via EV

On 5/26/2017 1:50 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

How (Tesla) EV air conditioning works> (also minimizes pack-cell temp
variations)
The article has outdated information and the author does not fully 
understand how the Tesla heating system works. Here is how it really works:
https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-interior-AC-and-heater-work-in-a-Tesla-or-other-electric-cars 



Most folks don't understand how "reverse cycle" A/C works. (Also called 
a "heat pump".) Many modern EV's have a heat pump arrangement in 
addition to a simple resistive type heater. The heat pump is 3 or 4 
times as efficient as a resistive heater in all but the coldest outside 
temperatures, resulting in far less energy use for the same cabin heat. 
The resistive heater is only used below about -15 Celsius outside 
temperature, when the heat pump becomes ineffective.


Basically, with an arrangement of valves, they run the A/C system 
backwards. It is like taking out your window A/C unit and putting it in 
backwards. It absorbs heat from the cooler outside air and "squeezes" it 
out to the warmer inside air. Thus the term "heat pump" as you are 
"pumping" heat "up hill". One third to one fourth the energy use than an 
equivalent resistive heater.


Bill D.

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Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

2017-05-25 Thread Bill Dube via EV
A fuel cell _is_ a battery, of sorts. You just are continuously feeding 
the "battery" with fresh hydrogen and oxygen electrolyte.


Why convert from electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity 
with the inevitable conversion step inefficiencies? Skip the hydrogen 
part and simply fill the car directly with electricity. The solution is 
obvious if you just step back and think for a few moments about the 
entire process and the goal you are trying to achieve.


Bill D.

On 5/25/2017 9:26 AM, 63urban via EV wrote:
 
If hydrogen can be used as a battery then it would not be a waste as the cost of solar comes down you have a use for excess capacity

Nick


Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.

 Original message 
From: Peri Hartman via EV 
Date: 2017-05-25  11:14 AM  (GMT-05:00)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

Perhaps at some point. However, solar panels are still expensive and
inefficient enough that it seems like a waste to convert their
electricity to hydrogen. If I remember correctly, you'll loose 50% of
the energy during that step versus maybe an 80% overall efficiency level
for an EV.

Peri


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Re: [EVDL] @50kW: Chevy Bolt charge times with a level 3 charger

2017-05-22 Thread Bill Dube via EV
There are exceptions, but typically the internal resistance of a 
cell/battery reaches a minimum at 100% SOC. Basically, a fully charged, 
completely balanced, battery pack is indeed "stiffer".


The notable exception is LiFePO4. The internal resistance of these 
particular cells is a very weak function of SOC. They stay "stiff" and 
at close to the same voltage for much of their discharge. Only at very 
low SOC does the internal resistance rise significantly. The same is 
true for very high SOC.


  The typical pack in an OEM EV is Li-Ion metal oxide of some sort. 
The  internal resistance is a strong function of SOC (as is the cell 
voltage,) and the resistance is at a minimum at 100% SOC, so the pack is 
the most "stiff" when at 100% SOC and completely balanced.


On 5/22/2017 5:10 AM, Willie via EV wrote:



On 05/22/2017 07:47 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
Still sounds like a hold over from lead batteries. I can't imagine 
the voltage of an unbalanced pack being more than 10 volts loss in 
voltage. This would not be noticeable.


I agree, it seems inappropriate to talk about "stiffness" from 
balancing a lithium pack.  Though, I think Bruce was quoting someone 
else.  Maybe Bill Dube will chime in here, but if all cells are well 
top balanced and charged to maximum voltage, that amount above 
"normal" voltage represents a tiny amount of energy and is gone in the 
first few seconds of discharge.  Of course, lithium packs will sag 
when approaching discharge rating limits. But there is very little sag 
associated with SOC.


Which brings to mind the old "top balance"/"bottom balance" arguments. 
Is anyone out there still having good luck with bottom balancing?



Bruce mentioned "guessometer" in a Tesla context.  It is my 
understanding that Tesla arrives at an estimated range by applying a 
constant, linear scale factor to the estimated remaining energy.  For 
normal use, that scale factor is about 285 wh/m.  The driver is 
properly left to make allowances for wind, speed, elevation, weather, 
etc.  The imiev does apply some guessing based on past data.  They do 
a fair job of such guessing.  Leaf, OTHO, does such a terrible job 
that it is nearly useless.  I remember my wife calling me on her way 
home from picking up the new Leaf: "This thing has lost 15 miles of 
range in the first 5 miles traveled.  At this rate, I won't be able to 
get home.  Are you prepared to come get me?"  We, of course, learned 
to mostly ignore the really crappy instrumentation.


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Re: [EVDL] Low efficiency on your EV? Check the toe-in!

2017-04-29 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Ideally, the car should be loaded as it will be most often driven.

Years ago when I had my electric Wabbit aligned for minimum rolling 
resistance, I actually sat in the driver's seat while the car was on the 
alignment machine. They then set the wheels for as close to straight 
ahead as possible. They gave it the very slightest touch of toe-in, just 
to keep the wheels from shimmying. They also set the caster and camber 
for optimal rolling resistance. Caster doesn't matter much, but camber 
does. The wheels should be set with zero camber. (Vertical.) Zero camber 
does make a _slight_ difference in handling, but I wasn't planning an 
autocross.  The low center of gravity in an EV reduces the need for 
non-zero camber. It handled great, regardless.


I got out of the car after they were finished, while it was still on the 
alignment machine, and you could see that the alignment changed without 
my weight in the vehicle. I got back in, and the alignment moved back. 
It makes a significant difference. (And no, I'm am not that heavy. :-) )


Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] Nissan Leaf CAN Bus Man in the Middle

2017-03-13 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Outstanding work Tom.
Not many folks have the ability (or patience) to tackle this job, but 
a lot of us will use this. Makes the Leaf battery module so much more 
useful as a functional unit.


A bit like "LeafSpy", but for the serious EV hacker. :-)

Bill D.

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[EVDL] My favorite EV cartoon (was: Electric cars and the comic strip)

2017-03-10 Thread Bill Dube via EV


Here is my favorite EV cartoon. From the New Yorker many years ago:

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6004/ITDB100Z/posters/mick-stevens-it-runs-on-its-conventional-gasoline-powered-engine-until-it-senses-guilt-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg

Bill D.

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Re: [EVDL] Best/Cheapest BMS for 84V 25S Li-Ion Pack

2017-03-07 Thread Bill Dube via EV

"Best" and "Cheapest" are typically at odds with each other. :-)

Derek Barger (HighTechSystems) sells all sorts of BMS. Worth checking out.
http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com
Send Derek an email: de...@hightechsystemsllc.com

Rich Rudman (Manzanita Micro) also has been selling BMS to the 
hobbyist, probably longer than anyone I can think of. (Since 1995 as I recall).

http://www.manzanitamicro.com


Davide' Andreas (Elithion) also sells BMS, but they typically sell to 
hobbyists through retail dealers.

http://elithion.com/
http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/Elithion-Lithiumate-Lite-or-Pro-BMS-br-Lithium-Battery-BMS-br-LiFePO4-or-LiMn204_p_476.html

I have owned systems from all of these folks. Each system has its 
unique advantages and disadvantages. They all work equally well, but 
they all have a slightly different approach and perspective. Pick 
which one suits your specific needs the best.


If you are drag racing or the like, I'd lean towards Derek.
If you need step-by-step installation instructions, Rich probably has 
the easiest to follow instructions.

If you love all the bells and whistles, Davide' is a good match for you.


Bill D.



At 08:21 PM 3/6/2017, you wrote:

Hi Guys,

I blew my BMS today. Feels like an EV rite of passage.

It was a proprietary system from an older EV conversion by a now defunct UK
company so I have no way of discovering what's going on inside, I have been
unable to find any documentation.

My system is 84V from 25 Thundersky 160Ah batteries.  I have a Curtis 1238
Controller.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a BMS?

I've only managed to find Orion and Elithion that look convincing.

Many thanks,
Matthew

07966 806 727
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Re: [EVDL] What is the expected lifetime of used electric car batteries in a battery farm?

2017-03-05 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Unlike lead-acid batteries, that seemingly fall off of a cliff when they 
die, li-ion batteries slowly and steadily decline in capacity as they age.


Li-ion batteries steadily lose capacity both with age and with the 
number of cycles. They lose capacity a bit more quickly at first, and 
then a bit more slowly. They keep working until the capacity is so low 
that they lose their usefulness.


This assumes that you are charging them correctly and discharging them 
within their proper voltage range and temperature.


Bill D.

On 3/5/2017 6:12 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:

Consider the use of used electric car Lithium batteries for electric
storage in a battery farm.  Suppose the batteries are removed from the car
after losing 20-30% of their range and moved to a climate controlled, shock
and vibration free environment and where the rate of charging/discharging
is kept to a low level, say 10 kW.  Does anyone know what is the expected
lifetime of those batteries in that environment?  Does the battery become
erratic below a certain level?

Thanks,



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Re: [EVDL] HPGC AC-31-01 Diagram or Manual

2017-01-29 Thread Bill Dube via EV
The springs in the clutch center, and the torque-limiting nature of 
the clutch itself serve to limit peak torque in the transmission and 
driveline. The transmission and the driveline components need the clutch 
and its center springs to survive long-term.


It is not the torque _from_ the motor that is the source of the 
torque peaks, it is bumps in the road, like rail road tracks, that 
inject damaging torque spikes _into_ the driveline and transmission. No 
clutch to slip a little bit, or clutch center springs to absorb these 
spikes, and the transmission life becomes very very short.


Bill D.

On 1/29/2017 7:28 PM, Tom Keenan via EV wrote:

I also have an older DC powered conversion with a clutch. I've found that 
shifting with the clutch is much faster and much more forgiving.  I've driven 
it 'clutchless' a couple of times as an exercise, but found it to be very slow 
to shift with the foot off the clutch.  Matching motor speed with selected gear 
normally results in time wasted between gears waiting for the motor to wind 
down - traffic behind becomes very intolerant if you miss the split second 
between go and no-go.
Tougher on hills because the vehicle may slow down to almost nothing before the 
motor winds down enough to shift clutchless. Then you are back to square one 
(first gear again).
However, since AC motors have a much wider RPM operating range, frequent 
shifting isn't really necessary as with most DC motor conversions.
One conversion I've seen with an AC motor was a clutchless Geo Metro 
(Solectria). The AC motor twisted off the transmission input shaft in that 
particular vehicle twice, requiring a transmission replacement both times. 
Might be a poorly matched transmission design, or it might be that the clutch 
provides a bit of overtorque protection.
Based on what I've seen and operated for the last few years, I'd recommend 
retaining the clutch.  If you have a clutch-type conversion of any type 
available to test drive in your area, try to drive it both ways to see what 
fits your driving style before you commit.

Tom Keenan


On Jan 29, 2017, at 4:59 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

I have an S-10 conversion with the clutch left out, and you certainly can shift 
it without the clutch. But the shifts take several seconds as you wait for the 
motor to sync up in speed, and the time I spend coasting, unless planned well 
in advance to be going down a hill, etc, can cause cars to ride up on me.

If I were do another conversion, I would probably leave the clutch in, despite 
the efficiency hit, just so that you can shift quickly. That way you could 
start in 1st and shift to 2nd quickly, instead of using extra amps to start up 
(slowly) in 2nd.

I have a DC motor, so I find myself shifting between 2nd and 3rd gear around 40 
MPH. Perhaps with an AC motor that has a larger RPM range you could get 0-50 
which would be fine for all city driving, or even 0-60 MPH in one gear and 
shifting wouldn't be much of an issue.

Jay


On 01/29/2017 05:24 PM, Cruisin via EV wrote:
It doesn't surprise me of the lack of support from HPEVS. maybe their door is
locked
Regarding the AC-31 which I have a lot of experience with, the motor already
has a
front bearing. The information you received from the seller of the motor is
false. Do your
conversion but leave out the flywheel and clutch assembly. If you want to
shift, it can be done
without a clutch as long as you are not using regeneration, else you will
have to feather the
accelerator during the shift. NO CLUTCH NEEDED.

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Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

2017-01-07 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Doesn't Lee Hart's "Batt Bridge" do this?
Seems like it monitors cell behavior (impedance, voltage) and 
continuously compares it with the group behavior.

Wouldn't the Batt Bridge be prior art?
Seems like it to me.

Bill D.

On 1/7/2017 10:32 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

I read the claims of the Patent (which is the meat of the invention)
and while I understand that you can establish parameters for a pack and
determine for example loss of a single cell in a parallel configuration
in a number of ways, for example because that set of parallel cells will
have lower capacity than the other (series connected) sets, so the
voltage of the set with one less (functioning) cell will rise and fall
faster with SoC;
it is also possible to determine (increase of) impedance of a set of
parallel cells by monitoring the short-term voltage variation correlated
with changes ("transient" in terms of the patent) in the current flowing
through the cells (from acceleration and regen or charging start/stop),
but I do not understand their claim that they determine an overcharge
event by finding a *lower* impedance of the cell than normal 
All data that I have seen show that pack impedance goes *up* at the low
and the high end of SoC, so how can they determine overcharging from
lowered impedance???
Unless the Panasonic/Tesla cells react differently to overcharge than
other chemistries.
For over*dis*charge they do expect and detect a rise in cell impedance.

After Claim 9 we find the usual stuff for a Lithium-ion battery with BMS
that balances cells, the only really new thing that this patent seems to
claim is the *de*crease of impedance during overcharge and the fact that
it uses an independent system for the over- and under-charge threshold
detection so that if the main BMS fails and balancing is unavailable, at
least this backup system prevents the battery from over- and
under-charge so the car can continue to be used (and driven to the
service appointment) with the main BMS out.
This fact of a backup BMS as well as the *lowered* impedance measured to
represent overcharging was probably never claimed before and thus it is
possible to get a patent on this, but I find this a very flimsy basis
for a patent.
It is always possible that I misunderstood the patent - reading and
interpreting claims is never easy stuff but I have a bit of experience
;-)

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
   
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 3:59 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TESLA - Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an
Exceptional Charge Event in a Series Connected Battery Element

Danny Ames via EV wrote:

Yet another advanced strategy Tesla has come up with to keep Li

battery packs from thermal run away and charge safely and quickly.Danny

Patent Issued for Transient Detection of an Exceptional Charge Event

in a Series Connected Battery Element (USPTO 9529048)

Man, they sure make it difficult to tell what (if anything) is new or
any different than what people have been doing for decades.

Can anyone find anything in here that's actually a new invention?



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Re: [EVDL] Forklift Battery Options?

2017-01-04 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I bought a forklift with a "bad" battery about 5 years ago. I'm still 
using the original "bad" battery.


Do exactly as Cor said:
 Charge it up, then measure the voltage on each cell, then fill each 
cell with distilled to the proper level, then run the forklift until the 
battery is dead,  recharge and repeat.
Do this about three or four times. I did and the "bad" battery came back 
to about 30% capacity. Fine for my use.


Typically, forklift batteries are treated _terribly_, and typically just 
need a few full cycles and then they work OK.


You _might_ find that you have a dead cell or extremely weak cell. If 
one, (or two,) cells just refuse to revive after a few cycles, you might 
have to strap across these bad cells. Your folklift won't miss one (or 
two) cells out of 18 total. Just be sure to discharge those cells 
_completely_ before you strap them across.


I give my forklift a small top up charge (maybe 20 amp-hrs) once per 
week and fill the water about twice per year.


Bill D.


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla with auto pilot predicts accident.

2016-12-28 Thread Bill Dube via EV
The car has radar, lidar, and multiple cameras. It can "see" cars around 
it that the driver does not. It does not merely "see" the cars 
immediately surrounding itself. It gathers information about _all_ the 
objects it can perceive. It is a very very sophisticated system.


Also, the brakelights on the SUV are clearly visible though the windows 
of the red car that was in between. The autopilot would see the 
brakelights and the changing position of the SUV, etc. and realize the 
SUV was slowing down rapidly.


Bill D.

On 12/28/2016 4:46 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

It very clearly predicted the accident with an audible alarm IMO. Probably sees 
there relative speeds off of gps in their phones or car NAB systems. I'm amazed 
what one can learn about traffic with just google maps.

Sent from my iPhone




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[EVDL] Schneeveis battery load (was: Testing Leaf Modules)

2016-12-23 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Bob Schneeveis had what I thought was the best solution. He had a ~6 ft 
section of ~3/4" thinwall stainless steel tube. He put compression 
fittings on the end to connect it up to a garden hose. He then machined 
two large copper split clamps that slid smoothly over the tube with 
large electrical connections on each. He would turn on the water, and 
repostion the clamps to attain the desired resistance, tighten the thumb 
screws to hold them in position on the tube, then turn on the current 
from the battery.


In went cold water. Out came hot water. It can be set for any load 
you desire. Very nifty indeed.


(Not UL approved. ;-) )

Bill D.

On 12/23/2016 11:04 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

I'm planning on testing the capacity of some Leaf Modules I've picked up.
Any suggestions for a good 60A or so load for 8V?

--
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[EVDL] No code requirements (was: EV diy Charge Controller - with Display!)

2016-12-23 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I have to agree with Cor. The building code, electrical code, and fire 
code only regulates the building, but not beyond the plug in the wall. 
If it isn't permanently attached and part of the structure, then the 
building codes have no say, and neither does the insurance company.


Do you have to get a permit to plug in your newly purchased TV or vacuum 
cleaner? Of course not. Portable cord connected appliances are not 
regulated by building codes. Adding a receptacle is different. That 
requires a building permit.


However, if you permanently wire in an appliance, (or a changing 
station) and don't use a plug to make the connection, that is a horse of 
a different color. That _does_ require a building permit. That would be 
regulated under the electrical code, because it is part of the building.


Also, insurance companies very often will _try_ to argue that something 
is not covered. They like to collect premiums, but would prefer not to 
pay claims. Often, especially with large claims, you must get the 
lawyers involved to force the insurance company to cover what the policy 
says it covers. The very nature of insurance companies.


If it has a plug that you can take in and out, then it isn't regulated 
by the building code (like your EV has a plug and isn't regulated by the 
building code) If it is _permanently_ wired in, then it _is_ regulated 
by the building code.


Bottom line -> use a plug to connect your charger.

Bill D.


On 12/22/2016 4:45 PM, Cruisin via EV wrote:

These units are not UL approved and cannot be installed in any bay area where
the code requires it. There have been a couple of fires caused by the
charging station which will not be covered by insurance
since no building permit was obtained. Be warned.

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Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the “smartest” 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

2016-12-22 Thread Bill Dube via EV

I suspect that the journalist has his facts wrong.

He writes:
"I was also surprised to note it had a standard heated steering wheel, 
which you might think would be an energy hog, as well as standard heated 
seats."


This shows ignorance. Heated seats and steering wheel put the heat 
directly where it is needed, reducing the need for cabin heat, which 
greatly reduces energy use during cold weather operation. Why heat the 
entire passenger compartment when you can efficiently heat just the 
passenger?


Bill D.

On 12/22/2016 3:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2017-4th-gen-is-the-smartest-42ED-EV-yet-r-160km-ts-130kph-0-100kph-11-5s-td4684960.html
EVLN: 2017 4th-gen is the “smartest” 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph
0-100kph:11.5s
The smartest smart car ever
The first electric smart debuted in 2007 when 100 were tested in London, ...
CVT transmission gearing, there is an ECO Mode ...



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Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the “smartest” 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

2016-12-22 Thread Bill Dube via EV

CVT transmission? In an EV? Seriously?

No successful OEM electric vehicle has any sort of transmission, at 
least none that I am aware of.
Touting a transmission on a prototype EV is a huge red flag. It shows 
that the design team is very inexperienced (or was overruled by 
management, which has the same result, unfortunately.)


We can hope that the journalist that wrote the article got the facts wrong.

Bill D.

On 12/22/2016 3:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2017-4th-gen-is-the-smartest-42ED-EV-yet-r-160km-ts-130kph-0-100kph-11-5s-td4684960.html
EVLN: 2017 4th-gen is the “smartest” 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph
0-100kph:11.5s
The smartest smart car ever
The first electric smart debuted in 2007 when 100 were tested in London, ...
CVT transmission gearing, there is an ECO Mode ...



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Re: [EVDL] (Lameo product names)> Goog's Alphabet rebrands auton-tech as Waymo

2016-12-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Perhaps a convertible model called the "Molt"?

On 12/14/2016 3:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Make a roadster sports car to accompany the Bolt that is the commute car
and call it the Nut?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
   


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Re: [EVDL] A. D. Little EV vs ICE report

2016-12-11 Thread Bill Dube via EV
An prime example of the misinformation presented in this 
_non-peer-reviewed_ report shows up on page 7, where the report states:
"Survey data reveals that BEVs are driven an average of 27% fewer miles 
per year than comparable ICEVs, but BEV owners still travel the same 
total miles as their ICEV counterparts. 6 "


Looking up the sited report in footnote #6, "Plug-in vehicle road 
tax report", it gives zero information about ICEV's or the ICEV annual 
miles driven. It is entirely about PIHEV"s and BEV's with no mention 
_whatsoever_ of ICEV's. The source and nature of their ICE vehicle 
annual miles is conspicuously absent. I wanted to know:  What type of 
ICEV's are included? Over-the-road trucking perhaps?


The authors go on to assume, without supporting data, that the EV 
owner would need "make up" these "lost" EV miles using public 
transportation or a rental car. This conjecture by the authors has no 
basis in reality. I don't drive my EV any less that I used to drive my 
ICE. When my wife and I drive together, or when we have both cars to 
choose from, we preferentially drive the EV, instead of our Prius. Why 
wouldn't we? It is cheaper to drive. The EV clocks more miles than the HEV.


I also guffawed at figure #3, Its shows a number days lost for the 
replacement battery for the BEV, but neglects the 4 or5 lead acid 
starting batteries the ICE will have to replace over its lifespan, that 
will likely cost a day each to replace. Where is the time lost for ICE 
repairs in this graph, like the catalytic converter, exhaust system, oil 
changes, tune-ups, fuel system, etc.?


The report was written by a person that has never driven an 
electric car for any length of time, obviously.


I guess this is how "fake news" originates.

Bill D.


On 12/11/2016 8:12 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:

ADL is an obvious think tank. I don't know for sure if they are biased but I 
have never seen a serious research paper list car and driver magazine as a 
source. I suspect oil company funding.

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 11, 2016, at 5:29 PM, Joe Fields via EV  wrote:

Recently I saw this report from the management consulting firm A. D. Little
referenced in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece by Holman W. Jenkins, Jr.:

http://www.adlittle.us/uploads/tx_extthoughtleadership/ADL_BEVs_vs_ICEVs_FINAL_November_292016.pdf

The report claims that BEVs have only a slight margin over ICEs in terms of
greenhouse gas reduction (23%) and that BEVs are significantly more
polluting overall.  To quote the WSJ article:

"... its total “human toxicity”—mainly due to heavy metals and
graphite—will be three to five times greater."

I don't know anything about ADL's reputation, but this analysis appears to
be strangely biased.  For instance my conversion's LiFePO4 cells don't
contain ANY heavy metals, but the catalytic converter in my gas car
definitely does contain platinum and palladium (which are obtained via
notoriously polluting mining operations...)

So two questions for the list:

Is there a reputable source that would refute this analysis?

Is there something I don't know about ADL's motivations for smearing EVs?
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Re: [EVDL] Towing 4 wheels down Spark EV or Leaf

2016-11-25 Thread Bill Dube via EV
I'm going to take a guess that the coolant pump should be on and 
circulating coolant to the motor and controller. When you spin a PM 
motor, even when it is off, it still generates some amount heat due to 
eddy current losses. This would be especially true at sustained highway 
speeds.


   When you put the car in "neutral" you aren't really disconnecting 
anything mechanical. (The motor still spins.) You are just signalling 
the motor controller not to do anything, like use the generated power to 
charge the battery (regen).


However, if you can actually turn on the vehicle, and the wheels 
would roll correctly, why would you need to have it towed?


Bill D.

On 11/25/2016 5:51 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

I know the operator manuals on my Leaf and Spark EV say they can't be towed 
with 4 wheels down but why not can't you just put it in neutral or disconnect 
the motor wires?  On all my conversions I've had no problems towing wheels 
down. Both say to use a tow dolly
Thanks Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Electronics help anyone

2016-10-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV

It all made sense to me Robert.
The bi-metal instrument regulator makes 5 volts and a 7805 makes 5 volts.
The motor case gets hot a bit later than the windings, but it generally 
takes a while to fry the windings, so knowing the motor case temperature 
is not perfect, but quite useful.


Bill D.


On 10/26/2016 11:11 PM, ROBERT via EV wrote:

I give up.  The statement "I ended up replacing the bi-metal 'voltage regulator' with a solid 
state 7805 " does not make sense.  A voltage regulator is used with an alternator or a 
generator.  In addition, a bi-metal regulator is an old style regulator.  Also, the 7805 is an IC 
voltage chip that output 5VDC (i.e. 05).  So you replaced a 12VDC regulator with a 5VDC source ... 
I do not think so.  The statement "(I use an OEM temp sending unit attached to the motor case) 
Works fine with the ZEVA unit"  The ZEVA unit is for SOC and amp measurement and you used a 
temp sending unit.  In addition, why did you want to measure the temperature of the motor case?  By 
the time the case gets hot, the motor windings are fried. You use RTDs embedded in the motor 
windings to measure the temperature of an electric motor for protect.  I give up.


From: EV  on behalf of Tom Keenan via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 5:59 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electronics help anyone

I ended up replacing the bi-metal 'voltage regulator' with a solid state 7805 
(if memory serves) to provide voltage to the fuel gauge and the temperature 
gauge (I use an OEM temp sending unit attached to the motor case). Works fine 
with the ZEVA unit on the '89 style gauges.

Tom Keenan


On Oct 26, 2016, at 3:33 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

Reason your resistor goes up in smoke at the end of the scale
is that the display of the tank level takes quite a bit of power,
the (cheap and rugged) way Ford did this was using a bi-metal to
drive the needle and a *heater* to control the position of the needle
by bending the bi-metal due to it getting warm.
So, if it requires say 1/4 Amp at the minimum resistance of the heater
then the resistor may need to be able to dissipate 2 Watts or burn up
if it is too light...
You should be able to drive the needle by outputting a voltage, probably
the easiest is a PWM controlled output, with the duty cycle controlling
the position of the needle.
No resistors needed. But you are likely to see that the PWM must stay
below
about 50% duty cycle or it overheats the bi-metal (needle in the corner)
so set the start (empty) and end (full) PWM limits accordingly.

Success!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

Proxim - Wireless Broadband, Backhaul Solutions and Access 
...
www.proxim.com
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 3:21 PM
To: Bill Collins; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electronics help anyone

So.  What does it matter?  Did the PCM drive the gauge or did the tank
sensor?  Look at the vehicle wiring diagram.  If the sensor came to the
PCM, and the PCM output a signal to the gauge then you will never figure
out the PCM signal type or level.  The PCM is gone.  Look at what you
have at present  a gauge and Amp transmitter and determine their
signal requirements.  Do not guess ... get the spec or you may damage
the devices.




From: EV  on behalf of Bill Collins via EV

Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:33 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electronics help anyone


The PCM probably had a resistor to a regulated voltage source, so that
the tank
sender produced a varying voltage instead of just a resistance.

Bill
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Re: [EVDL] Electronics help anyone

2016-10-25 Thread Bill Dube via EV
You're going to roll your eyes when I suggest this, but you will thank 
me later when you do this simple project using one:


Run the gauge with an Arduino. The version you will need costs maybe $20 
and will do this job simply and easily.


Once you get a single project working using an Ardunio, (which will take 
a bit of work on your part at first) you will be amazed how easy it is 
to use and how many little projects will be simplified by using one.


1) Get this book and kit: https://www.sparkfun.com/sylviakit (Book is 
written by a 12 year old girl.)

2) Read the book.
3) Do the simple programs and experiments with the kit that the book 
tells you, step-by-step, _exactly_ how to do. (This book assumes you 
know _nothing._)
4) Write a simple custom program for the board (or look up a program for 
the board on line and simply download it) that solves this particular 
problem.

5) Install the board in your car, connect it up, and you are done.

You can get a much smaller, cheaper, specialized Arduino to do this 
specific job, but the more generic Arduino "Uno" in the kit will work.


There are Arduino's _everywhere_. For example, our Taz 5 3D printer that 
has all sorts of things happening at once, like three axis motion 
control, two temperature controls, a variable speed fan, a digital 
display, a digital knob that controls a menu on the display, reads 
commands from a computer via USB or runs commands from an SD card, plus 
things I have forgotten, runs it all _simultaneously_ on an Arduino 
board that costs about $80.


Trust me, if you do this you will be astounded at how simple the whole 
thing has become and will never look back.


Bill Dube'





On 10/25/2016 2:05 PM, Rick Beebe via EV wrote:

I have a 1998 Ford Ranger (http://evalbum.com/4674) that I bought as a
lead-acid EV and converted it to Lithium. In the process I replaced
almost everything. I bought an AutoblockAMP from RechargeCar (sadly,
discontinued). It's a slick hall-effect current sensor that measures
current and counts amp-hours. It outputs a pulsed signal to show amps on
a tach (works great). It has another line that puts out 12v to light up
a "low battery" light at some specified threshold and a third one that,
I believe, uses PWM to ground to simulate a variable resister to drive
the fuel gauge to show SOC.

I have the service manual for the truck and indeed it shows a single
wire from the gauge to the sensor in the tank. 22ohms empty and 240ohms
full (that's from memory so don't quote me). The problem is it doesn't
work. Connecting that wire to ground through any resistance does
nothing. The engine computer (PCM) was removed during the initial
conversion. The fuel sensor wire also went to the PCM but I don't see
anything in the wiring diagram that should influence the gauge. What I
have discovered is that I can make the gauge work by supplying voltage
rather than a connection to ground. 2volts is empty and 9volts is full.

I haven't got a clue as to the piece of magic that the PCM (or some
other wire) must have provided such that the gauge is now "backwards."
So I've tried seeing if I can convert the AutoblockAMP signal. My first
attempt was to use it as 1/2 of a voltage divider and that sort-of
worked except for finding the right value to drive the gauge full scale.
Plus  if, while I'm adjusting the ABAMP and I get too close to one end
of the scale the resister burns up. My second attempt, thinking it was a
PWM signal, was to use a PNP mosfet. That looked promising but isn't
driving the gauge linearly enough. It goes from full to empty in the
first quarter of the SOC.

So I'm looking for ideas. Any thoughts?

--Rick

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

2016-10-17 Thread Bill Dube via EV

On 10/17/2016 1:22 PM, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:


So no one would mind having infinite battery. It's something we should
invent. :)

-Jukka


Edison (nickle/iron) cells have pretty much infinite cycle life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

However, "eternal" cycle life comes with other baggage:
 Pathetic charge/discharge efficiency = ~70%
 Mediocre specific energy = ~20Whr/kg
 Tepid specific power = ~ 100 W/kg
 Painful self-discharge = ~25% per month (This, coupled with the poor 
specific power, is why they aren't used as starting batteries.)


  Edison cells have the distinct advantage of containing no toxic 
metals, which is a very positive aspect.


Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] New shop

2016-10-17 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Hi Wayne,

 The very best success is when you sell your business (for a pile 
of money) to some else. Sounds like you have a corner on the market.

Congratulations!

Bill Dube'

On 10/16/2016 5:04 PM, wayne alexander via EV wrote:

Its been a long time since I posted here..things are going great. I will be 
opening a shop in California. Exactly is not sure where ast this time. I will 
be merging with  another group there. We were getting  grant  applied form  the 
state and the Feds. A new building at least 100 x 200 foot is to start. All new 
tooling all CNC

So far I have secured a contract to build a push back tractor for a 747.C5A 
and A380 size. Its a no brainer. We will not be building any cars. I have 
already built a hybrid system for a Ford E450 bus 36 passenger. It has been on 
the road for 6 months now and works like a dream. Also a 17,500 lb delivery 
truck. 3 so far. Believe it or not...0 to 60
Is 9 seconds .We have video of it doing that. Full electric.. 600 volt ac 
system  Allison 6 speed auto trans and a 120 miles range so far.

  They will be buying me out. And I will be working for them for 2 years then I 
can finally hang it up.  EV Cars have always been a flash in the pan. I made a 
good living at converting cars.  There has and never been and never will be a 
large demand for electric cars.. But the commercial end is where the EV future 
is. We also will be doing a large order of air craft baggage tugs and belt 
loaders. I will have to go to a Calif. Airport to see about doing a large cargo 
loader. The new company is paying for every thing.
Last month there was a large battery show in Novi Michigan. I went. Brought my 
lap top showing the bus and truck.
Out of all the venders and "so called " builders..we were the only people with 
any thing that was on them road that some he could afford..some prices were so over the 
top out of reach. No one could ever afford them. We beat every ones prices by at least 
3/4 ..we are in. Talks with a tracking co. From NY for as much as 30 delivery 
trucks...things are going great
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[EVDL] Eva Hakansson on E-Scooter video for BMW

2016-09-13 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Here is the video that Eva made for BMW this summer while we were in 
southern Germany:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsCXPq6BArI 



Very very nice scooter, as only BMW would make. _Very_ powerful.  It 
is a lot more  like motorcycle than is a typical scooter.


You can see her Facebook post about it here:
https://www.facebook.com/EvaHakanssonRacing

Full specs here:
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0263449EN/the-new-bmw-c-evolution

Bill D.  


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[EVDL] We raced an electric sidecar at Bonneville too! (Was: IEEE article and video on Electric sidecar racing on Bonneville)

2016-09-02 Thread Bill Dube via EV
There were two more EV motorcycles in addition to Kevin's sidecar at 
Bonneville this past week - MobiTec and KillaJoule.


MobiTec is a _very_ beautiful hub motor motorcycle from Japan:
http://marumasumotorcycle.jp/blog-entry-3925.html
The natural salt lake track is a bit rough for the hub motor, so he has 
not been able to get the bike up to it's maximum speed. Kaz managed a 
bit over 100 mph as of Thursday.


Our purpose-built sidecar motorcycle, the KillaJoule, has been at 
Bonneville this past week as well. We set three new overall sidecar 
records. We set the record for the FIM flying mile of 248.746 mph, and 
set the AMA flying record at the same time. We also set the flying 
kilometer FIM record of 400.2 kph. (All pending ratification, as is the 
usual.)


Eva was particularly happy with the 400 kph record as that number means 
a lot in Europe, where many of her fellow sidecar racers live.


It is always an adventure to race at Bonneville, and this time was no 
exception. I personally "let the magic smoke" out of our highly reliable 
8 kw Cummins-Onan diesel generator that we use to charge the bike. (Not 
an easy thing to do, but somehow I managed.) The salt finally got to the 
regen pot on the bike, which took a bit of troubleshooting to figure out 
and fix. (Thank you for your invaluable help with that, Frank John of 
the Loring Timing Association.) Plus the usual salt gremlins.


You can read about the entire adventure on our public Facebook page: 
https://www.facebook.com/EvaHakanssonRacing/


Bill & Eva

On 9/1/2016 11:03 AM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

This article caught my attention while I was reading up on something
else
http://spectrum.ieee.org/video/transportation/alternative-transportation
/setting-a-land-speed-record-with-a-sidecar-motorcycle
Great to see that IEEE presents the electric drivetrain as the way to
set a land speed record...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
   
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

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Re: [EVDL] Plastic Enclosures

2016-07-29 Thread Bill Dube via EV
We bend thin (~3/32") sheets of poly-carbonate (Lexan) in a sheet metal 
brake. (Not acrylic or plexiglass, but Lexan.) Bends pretty much like 
sheet metal. No heat needed.


Rivet or screw the seams that you cut out and bend (like sheet metal.) 
Alternatively, you can make separate corners out of sheet metal of 
aluminum angle stock. Looks super slick.


We use it for everything.

Bill & Eva

On 7/27/2016 5:28 AM, Pestka Denis via EV wrote:

Looking for a plastic enclosure with a clear lid.

I've seen these in some vehicles, but I'm having trouble finding one large 
enough.

Looking for approx. 12"L x 3"W x 4"H.

Can anyone help with a source for one of these.


Thanks;

Dennis
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22

2016-06-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Valve Regulated Lead-Acid (VRLA) batteries are not prefect. They 
recombine a large percentage of the gas, but they still vent.
You can hear the valves faintly "click" to release gas when the 
batteries are nearly fully charged or on float charge.


Bill D.

On 6/14/2016 6:04 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 13 Jun 2016 at 20:38, Lee Hart via EV wrote:


  The gas either goes out the vent (flooded battery), or slowly
pressurizes the inside of the case (AGM or gel) until the pressure
relief vents release it. Either way, you're losing water.

I thought that most good valve regulated batteries had recombination
catalysts inside the cells, to recombing evolved hydrogen and oxygen into
water.  No?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] Dead accessory battery (was: Shock and Awe - Historic run 9.589 Seconds @ 152 MPH!!!)

2016-06-05 Thread Bill Dube via EV
A dead 12 volt accessory battery has happened at one point or another to 
everyone.


We typically run a small DC-to-DC converter to keep the accessory 
battery topped up, just to avoid the dreaded flat accessory battery.
You absolutely _must_ have a 12 volt accessory battery, but a DC-DC that 
runs whenever the vehicle is "on" increases the reliability a great 
deal. Small expense, but is good insurance against forgetting to charge 
the 12 volt, which is easy to forget in the excitement of race day. (Ask 
me how I know. :-) )


We use a Vicor DC-DC converter module (or more than one in parallel) 
like this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201199082834
You might choose a different model, (like a VE-j72-CY) depending on your 
main pack voltage and your wattage needs. You should get a 15 volt 
output and trim it down to ~13.5 volts (read the data sheet). If you get 
one with 12 volt output, it won't charge a 12 volt battery because it 
really puts out exactly 12.0 volts.


I don't know who originally said it but, "To finish first, one must 
first finish."


I'm guessing, but you probably used a portable "12 volt" battery charger 
to recharge your Li-Ion "12 volt" accessory battery. That is likely what 
ruined it. Almost without exception, the open circuit voltage of all 
portable "12 volt battery chargers" is greater than 15 volts, (often as 
high as 17 volts) which is a death sentence for a "12 volt" Li-Ion pack. 
Always measure the open circuit voltage, with a voltmeter, on a battery 
charger before you use it to charge a Li-Ion battery. Any power supply 
or charger that put out over ~14.7 volts open circuit will toast a 
Li-Ion accessory battery. Find one, like a laptop power supply, that 
puts out the _correct_ voltage.


Also, leaving a switch on overnight accidentally will drain the 
accessory battery to zero, which will also result in the demise of a 12 
volt Li_ion accessory battery. Good to have an LED tail light or dash 
indicator light that lets everyone know that the 12 volts is "on".


Best of luck!

Bill D.

On 6/5/2016 1:20 PM, Casey Mynott via EV wrote:

Hey all!

A historic day for the Shock and Awe racing team from Bothell Washington and
the world of drag racing!

After sitting in gridlock and sweltering heat on the #1 towards Mission
Raceway, I arrived just as the track was doing lunch. All in all it was an
amazing day with some serious excitement (a 9.589 second 152 MPH run) and a
bit of a turn at the end of the day. During run #2 the 16 volt AGM (which
was changed out for a faltering 16v lithium pack of headway cells) ran out
just as the team was pulling up to the line. So, yesterday ended in a somber
moment of reflection. A good reminder, racing is a tough sport, physically,
mentally, emotionally, financially, all of the above!

The team is at the track today hoping to get in another run, depending on
how that goes possibly a second.

For now, enjoy the video! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L53JTDnmj_w


Cheers!

Casey

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[EVDL] Hub motors = Bad Idea in a highway capable car (was: Riversimple 4 wheel (hub motors) car...)

2016-05-15 Thread Bill Dube via EV
You must have missed the part about how a failure in a hub motor can 
hurl the car into oncoming highway traffic.

Just one of the many pesky engineering "details" that must be ironed out.

Bill D.

On 5/15/2016 12:02 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Lots to like about this effort, and the video is easy to watch, and
provocative in good ways. Bill D mentions unsprung weight. If you aren't a
performance nut you can manage clunky handling. Most drivers can't discern
good handling from uninspired. People drive land yachts like Prius in large
numbers.  Bet those 4 motors aren't heavier that 4 steel truck wheels.

The business plan is very interesting. I do see cars as a service as
attractive to many people. They propose rolling it all up fuel, service,
etc., into a regular payment. I like that. Of course H2 isn't ready for
prime time, but the business plan doesn't depend on the energy storage
method. I like the use of capacitors for acceleration and braking.

Many details are missing, but it is still neat to see, and its on the road
not a CAD dream.


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Re: [EVDL] Riversimple 4 wheel (hub motors) car + very interesting business model

2016-05-15 Thread Bill Dube via EV
It isn't that I simply "don't like" hub motors. It is that they seem 
like a absolutley brilliant idea on the surface, but when you actually 
try to implement them, the multiple subtle hidden disadvantages far 
outweigh their initial advantages, and kill the concept very 
effectively. When you see hub motors in a highway capable vehicle 
proposal, run away from the investment, don't walk. The vehicle is 
doomed because they haven't done their engineering homework.


Hub motors are terrific in low speed vehicles. They work great in 
bicycles. Inboard separate motor (not hub motors) all wheel drive is 
fantastic in race cars. For an ordinary consumer vehicle, hub motors 
make no sense.


Every mainstream automotive manufacturer has tried building a prototype 
car with hub motors. They each then discovered the major disadvantages. 
They each then quietly abandoned the concept of hub motors, never to 
revisit again. Porsche was the first to try hub motors in 1897. The most 
recent attempt was Mitsubishi in 2007 with the  MiEV (now renamed the 
iMiEV.) The original prototype had four hub motors. The next generation 
of prototype was reduced to two hub motors. The next prototype pulled 
back to two inboard motors. Finally, they threw in the towel and they 
have a single motor driving a differential like everyone else (and they 
should have done in the first place, had management listened to the 
engineers.)


Here is an overview of the history and a description of the technology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_hub_motor

Unsprung weight is discussed as the major disadvantage, but they really 
don't go into the other details. Increased cost, greatly reduced safety, 
product liability, and a decrease in reliability are why you don't see 
separate motors driving opposite wheels on a highway capable consumer 
vehicle.


Think of a controller failure jerking the car into the oncoming highway 
traffic and you can begin to visualize just a single aspect of the 
multitude of engineering hurdles of hub motors.


Bill D.

On 5/15/2016 4:00 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:


I found this video about the Riversimple  car very interesting, both 
from a technology and business model sense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utmkddBFUg0

The car has 4 hub motors, specifically because they want all braking 
to be electric. They have a large bank of capacitors to absorb 50 kW 
of braking that are also used to power accelerations.


For people who don't like hub motors, the video shows that they can 
work in an actual driving test mule, and their justification for using 
them make sense (lots of excess electric braking power, ease of 
packaging to reduce aerodynamic drag, etc).


More interesting than the technology was the business model they are 
proposing.  Instead of selling the car, they "lease" it via a service 
contract (X$ a month and $N cents per mile). This way, the cost of 
manufacturing the car can be higher, as long as the total cost of 
operation is less than a gas car.  It also makes longevity, 
reliability, and low total cost of ownership a motivator for the 
company, aligning their interests with those of the customer.



(Disclaimer: The whole system is powered by an 8kW fuel cell, but I 
could also see a small sized lithium battery serving as the main 
motive force, as they only need to draw 8kW at a time from it. 
Acceleration is very good due to the capacitor bank, but top speed is 
limited to 60 MPH average (with limited bursts above this using the 
capacitor) due to the 11 HP equivalent (8KW) supply.)


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $25k Defiant EV3 (7 years and still a prototype) r:80mi 0-60mph:10s

2016-04-30 Thread Bill Dube via EV

" It even has a 2-speed transaxle, unlike every other current EV."

>> An EV needs a transmission like a fish needs a bicycle. <<

Some folks are stuck in the ICE mindset that a car _must_ have a 
transmission. Sometimes, even these days, you will see early prototype 
EV's with a transmission. Even the first hundred or so Tesla Roadsters 
had two-speed transmissions. They very quickly retrofitted them with a 
single speed gearbox, however. Everyone figures it out eventually.


Bill D.




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Re: [EVDL] Hotel Chargers

2016-04-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV
Motels very often have one or more outdoor 120 vac outlet somewhere. 
Ask permission ahead of time, and ask again when you arrive, if you 
can plug in. Bring a lng 14 gauge cord. Bring your 120 volt 
opportunity "charger".


You can also ask for a first floor room near parking and hang your 
log extension cord out the window when you are in your room at night.


It is also useful to bring a padlock to secure your 
opportunity charger to your wheel:

http://daryllafferty.com/CableLock.jpg

Bill D.


At 05:50 PM 4/27/2016, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Absent an online search ability,
I would:
- list some of my favorite hotels
- call them and ask the question

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of via EV
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 4:48 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Hotel Chargers

I'm going on a trip tomorrow and will be staying at a hotel. I tried to
look for hotels that offered EV charging. I cannot find any simple way
to do that search. I see Marriott has a list of hotels with chargers,
and of course PlugShare can list all EV chargers in an area and you can
search through that. But I see no comprehensive way to search for hotels
in area that have chargers. Seems odd to me. There are enough EVs now
that hotels should see offering charging as a competitive advantage.
It's certainly high on my list.

Am I missing something? How do you find hotels with EV charging?

-SteveS
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Re: [EVDL] Harbor Freight tools (was: J1772. Solder or crimp?)

2016-04-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV
HF has mostly decent quality tools. Not Snap-On super-duper top-end 
quality, but decent utilitarian tools at low prices.


When you are shopping at HF, you have to use common sense, however. 
The label may say "3/4 HP" but if the power cord is thin like a 
noodle and the price is only $15, it probably is only 100 watts and 
will likely not do the job like a brand name tool. (Chinese horses 
are often smaller, I've been told. ;-)  ) I've replaced a few power 
switches over the years as they are typically not well sealed.


I use the 30 in shear/bender/roller constantly.
http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html

I bought a band saw from HF many years ago and I can't imagine life without it:
http://www.harborfreight.com/14-in-4-speed-woodworking-band-saw-60564.html
I put a new motor with a VFD in it almost as soon as I got it, 
however. (I never buy replacement blades from HF.)


We actually have two of their $15  4 1/2 inch grinders. One for the 
race trailer and one for the shop.

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/grinders-buffers/4-12-in-43-amp-angle-grinder-69645.html

Impact wrench (we got it on sale for $79, minus 20% of course)
http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/impact-wrenches/12-in-professional-air-impact-wrench-68424.html
(This impact wrench works marvelously, by the way.)

We have bought 100's of their tools over the years. Only rarely have 
I been disappointed.


Bill D.

At 11:15 AM 4/27/2016, Mark Abramowitz wrote:


Interesting.

I was going to buy some stuff from them
awhile back, but decided against it after going online and reading 
reviews. Lots of folks thought they were junk, so it's good to see a 
contrary opinion.



Sent from <http://itunes.apple.com/app/id1030628044?mt=8=1>AltaMail Go




From: Bill Dube via EV <<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: Cor van de Water 
<<mailto:cwa...@proxim.com>cwa...@proxim.com>,Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List <<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>ev@lists.evdl.org>

Subject: [EVDL] Harbor Freight tools (was: J1772. Solder or crimp?)
Date: 4/27/16, 8:49 AM


Harbor freight _always_ has a 20% off one item coupon, somewhere.
Occasionally, a 25% off coupon is sent in mailings, advertizements, etc.
(AARP magazine often has a 25% off coupon.)
You can always get a "free LED flashlight" coupon as well. Be sure to
find one of those.

They have nice tools, but you must be somewhat selective in what you buy
from Harbor Freight.
Buy the tool (like a band saw) from HF, but buy the replacement
metal-cutting blades, end-mills, and the like, elsewhere. Blades, etc.
for wood and plastic from HF are OK and work great. Drills are OK.
They sell _awesome_ hydraulic tools at a bargain price. Their hand
tools, pneumatic tools, and power tools, have worked well for us for
many years and saved us a ton of money. If you look at photos of our
shop, almost all the tools are HF brand.

We buy Ryobi cordless tools because they all use the same style battery.
Have for many years, even though they have changed chemistry, the new
batteries fit the old tools. (Even though they cost substantially less,
almost every HF cordless tool uses a different style battery and
charger, so we buy Ryobi.)

Bill D.

On 4/26/2016 3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Bill,
> Thanks - I am planning to convert my Lead-Acid pack to Li later this
> year
> as it has been deteriorating after 16,500 miles and 4 years of almost
> daily commute, so I probably will need to make new cables for that
> conversion.
> I printed your coupon and noticed that it is valid till end this week,
> then I came home and found the weekly junk mail stash in the mailbox -
> but the back page caught my eye: Harbor Freight ads and a 20% off
> coupon,
> only the paper coupon is valid till July!
> Probably that the digital coupon will get renewed every week or so, but
> it was a nice coincidence to get both at the same day!
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office <tel:+1%20408%20383%207626>+1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP <tel:+31%2087%20784%201130>+31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
>
> <http://www.proxim.com>http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via
> EV
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772. Solder or crimp?
>
> Harbor Freight sells an outstanding hydraulic crimper at a

[EVDL] Harbor Freight tools (was: J1772. Solder or crimp?)

2016-04-27 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Harbor freight _always_ has a 20% off one item coupon, somewhere.
Occasionally, a 25% off coupon is sent in mailings, advertizements, etc. 
(AARP magazine often has a 25% off coupon.)
You can always get a "free LED flashlight" coupon as well. Be sure to 
find one of those.


They have nice tools, but you must be somewhat selective in what you buy 
from Harbor Freight.
Buy the tool (like a band saw) from HF, but buy the replacement 
metal-cutting blades, end-mills, and the like, elsewhere. Blades, etc. 
for wood and plastic from HF are OK and work great. Drills are OK.
They sell _awesome_ hydraulic tools at a bargain price. Their hand 
tools, pneumatic tools, and power tools, have worked well for us for 
many years and saved us a ton of money. If you look at photos of our 
shop, almost all the tools are HF brand.


We buy Ryobi cordless tools because they all use the same style battery. 
Have for many years, even though they have changed chemistry, the new 
batteries fit the old tools. (Even though they cost substantially less, 
almost every HF cordless tool uses a different style battery and 
charger, so we buy Ryobi.)


Bill D.

On 4/26/2016 3:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Bill,
Thanks - I am planning to convert my Lead-Acid pack to Li later this
year
as it has been deteriorating after 16,500 miles and 4 years of almost
daily commute, so I probably will need to make new cables for that
conversion.
I printed your coupon and noticed that it is valid till end this week,
then I came home and found the weekly junk mail stash in the mailbox -
but the back page caught my eye: Harbor Freight ads and a 20% off
coupon,
only the paper coupon is valid till July!
Probably that the digital coupon will get renewed every week or so, but
it was a nice coincidence to get both at the same day!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
   
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via
EV
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772. Solder or crimp?

Harbor Freight sells an outstanding hydraulic crimper at a bargain
price:
http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
For $55  there is no reason to use a hammer crimper.

I have used the next size up from this one, made by the same
manufacturer, for about ten years. I have made countless crimps with
zero failures. Beautiful crimps of all different sizes with little
effort.

Here is a 20% off coupon, so you can get a crimper for $44:
http://www.harborfreight.com/digitalsavings.html

   Bill D.

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Re: [EVDL] J1772. Solder or crimp?

2016-04-25 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Harbor Freight sells an outstanding hydraulic crimper at a bargain price:
http://www.harborfreight.com/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-66150.html
For $55  there is no reason to use a hammer crimper.

I have used the next size up from this one, made by the same 
manufacturer, for about ten years. I have made countless crimps with 
zero failures. Beautiful crimps of all different sizes with little effort.


Here is a 20% off coupon, so you can get a crimper for $44:
http://www.harborfreight.com/digitalsavings.html

 Bill D.

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Re: [EVDL] EV Question

2016-04-06 Thread Bill Dube via EV

Hi Amanda,

PlugShare is an internet guide: http://www.plugshare.com
Also ChargePoint: http://www.chargepoint.com/
and OpenChargeMap:  http://openchargemap.org/site/
There are plenty of others.

Typically, there is a guide to charging stations built into the 
navigation system for your EV. I know that my Nissan Leaf has one and 
Tesla has one also.


There are a _lot_ of internet based forums etc. that talk about dealing 
with the problem of have a charging station "ICE'd" by internal 
combustion vehicles. Simply google "ICE'd EV" and you will find them 
all. :-)


Bill D.

On 4/5/2016 3:54 PM, Amanda Le via EV wrote:

Hello,

1. Does an electric vehicle charging station (EVCS) guide exist? (ideal
format will include manufacturer information in chart form for public Level
2 charging stations)

2. Does a guide exist with solutions for ICE vehicle parking in EV-only
parking spots?

Thank you!


-Amanda Le
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