[EVDL] Looking for used cells...

[Joe via EV]

I have a few cells in my 45 cell pack of calb 180's that are showing signs
of age after 6 years of daily use.  I'd like to replace the lowest cells
and since the rest of the pack has some wear, thought used cells would be
appropriate and lower cost.

Does anyone have some used cells looking for a home?  I'd consider other
brands or AH capacities assuming they can be paralleled to approximately
160-200 AH.  I'd even be open to other chemistries too since I can program
my BMS with new limits.

Thanks!
Joe
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Re: [EVDL] Testing Leaf Modules

[Joe via EV]

I made a 90A single cell load resistor out of 20 ga resistance wire (search
amazon for kanthal wire) and some half inch copper tube I had laying
around.  The pipe was turned into two rails maybe 24" long each and spaced
about 6" apart.  The resistance wire was then wrapped around from rail to
rail maybe 20 times.  I pinched the pipe flat at the ends and drilled holes
for bolting cables from the cells to the load.  Adding turns of resistance
wire increases the current.  Increasing the pipe spacing increases the
length of wire between rails and will require more voltage to push the same
amperage.  There are web calculators out there for resistance wire if you
want to crunch some numbers.

At a 6" spacing, a single cell pushes 3-4 amps per individual wire and the
20 ga wire is nowhere near red hot.  I thought this might be better since
the wire won't grow much and risk losing contact with the pipe.  For 8V,
maybe you'd need more spacing, more turns of smaller wire, or maybe just a
box fan to keep the wire temp reasonable.

Here's a picture.  Not pretty, but cost under $10 since all I needed was
the wire.
http://i.imgur.com/Z6jbom8.jpg



On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 11:04 AM, John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> I'm planning on testing the capacity of some Leaf Modules I've picked up.
> Any suggestions for a good 60A or so load for 8V?
>
> --
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

[Joe via EV]

Just some info on the 2nd gen prius a/c compressors that I've either read
about or figured out from playing with them:

They're 6 pole motors, so 3 electrical cycles per one physical cycle.  I've
seen specs that say max speed is 6000 rpm (100 Hz), so that'd be 300 Hz
output from the inverter.  I did see another document that said up to 7500
rpm.

With my 144v nominal pack that rests close to 150V, max speed under load on
hot days is about 4000 rpm.  I've read that the prius pack voltage is
around 200V, so maybe the 6000 rpm max speed is correct.

The motor is also highly salient - that is, it's inductance is much higher
in the q-axis (if i remember right).  Reluctance torque can be generated
with current along the d-axis and increase the overall torque per amp.

The motor can run open loop - in fact, I do this in order to ramp the motor
up to a minimum speed before the sensorless position algorithm takes over.
But, running open loop will limit the max speed and decrease the torque per
amp and overall efficiency.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

 3 phase 60 Hz AC synchronous motors seem to start and run just fine
 on fixed 60 Hz frequency, why does one need to ramp up and have precise
 feedback of rotor position therefore frequency and phase to make a
 DC controller?


 Synchronous motors are rare on fixed 60Hz AC because they are hard to
 start; and draw excessive current while trying to start.

 When you try to start it, the rotor tries to *instantly* move to the shaft
 angle that corresponds to the phase of the applied AC at that instant. To
 jump instantly from 0 to synchronous speed would require *infinite* torque
 (0 to 60 in 0 seconds)! And that would require infinite current! Not gonna
 happen.

 Of course, it can't draw infinite current; but starting current will be
 very high. The torque will be correspondingly high; but is often still not
 enough to jump the rotor from a dead stop up to synchronous speed in a
 single cycle. The motor might lurch forward; or even *backward* (if that
 happened to be the closest direction to make shaft position and AC
 waveforms match). Or just sit there and vibrate, trying in vain to catch
 one of the cars in that train of rapidly passing AC sinewaves.

 Also, once running, the synchronous motor needs to be wound so its back
 EMF at synchronous RPM just happens to be the AC supply voltage. If the
 supply voltage is high, the motor still runs but has a lagging power
 factor. If the supply voltage is low, it has a leading power factor. Both
 of these lead to increased I2R losses and thus poorer efficiency.

 Most fixed 60Hz AC synchronous motors are modified to reduce these
 problem. Synchronous-hysteresis motors have no permanent magnets; but use a
 hard magnetic rotor material that self-magnetizes once it's running (and
 de-magnetizes when it stops). Synchronous-induction motors bury the
 magnets inside a conventional induction rotor that is used to start the
 motor. Or a wound-rotor synchronous motor, with slip rings so the field can
 be controlled externally.

 That said... I do think there is hope for driving a true synchronous motor
 with a simple square-wave DC inverter within limits. It will mainly be hard
 to start, and you won't get peak efficiency.

 --
 The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
 there before. -- Roy Spence
 --
 Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

[Joe via EV]

The 04-09 prius a/c compressors have no electronics in them, just the motor
and compressor.  There are 3 shielded orange wires coming out, one for each
phase of the motor.  The controller itself is somewhere on the main drive
controller - i think it shares the cold plate.

The 2010 and later models have the controller built into the a/c compressor
- much like the motor windings use the cool incoming refrigerant for
cooling, the controller probably does as well.  I've never actually seen
one of these compressors, so I can only speculate what connections it has
(B+, B- and canbus?).

It would be interesting to try to sniff the canbus messages and see what
commands are sent to the compressor, then try to get one running by itself.


I felt there were more unknowns with the latest model compressor, so I went
the other route and built a controller for the 04-09 prius compressor.
 Joe,
Can you specify the electrical interface (which wire is what)
on the Prius A/C compressor module?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:[hidden email]
http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4676196i=0] On Behalf Of Joe
via EV
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 12:10 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning? 3 phase motors

Just some info on the 2nd gen prius a/c compressors that I've either read
about or figured out from playing with them:

They're 6 pole motors, so 3 electrical cycles per one physical cycle.  I've
seen specs that say max speed is 6000 rpm (100 Hz), so that'd be 300 Hz
output from the inverter.  I did see another document that said up to 7500
rpm.

With my 144v nominal pack that rests close to 150V, max speed under load on
hot days is about 4000 rpm.  I've read that the prius pack voltage is
around 200V, so maybe the 6000 rpm max speed is correct.

The motor is also highly salient - that is, it's inductance is much higher
in the q-axis (if i remember right).  Reluctance torque can be generated
with current along the d-axis and increase the overall torque per amp.

The motor can run open loop - in fact, I do this in order to ramp the motor
up to a minimum speed before the sensorless position algorithm takes over.
But, running open loop will limit the max speed and decrease the torque per
amp and overall efficiency.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Lee Hart via EV [hidden email]
http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=nodenode=4676196i=1 wrote:

 Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

 3 phase 60 Hz AC synchronous motors seem to start and run just fine
 on fixed 60 Hz frequency, why does one need to ramp up and have
 precise feedback of rotor position therefore frequency and phase to
 make a DC controller?


 Synchronous motors are rare on fixed 60Hz AC because they are hard to
 start; and draw excessive current while trying to start.

 When you try to start it, the rotor tries to *instantly* move to the
 shaft angle that corresponds to the phase of the applied AC at that
 instant. To jump instantly from 0 to synchronous speed would require
 *infinite* torque
 (0 to 60 in 0 seconds)! And that would require infinite current! Not
 gonna happen.

 Of course, it can't draw infinite current; but starting current will
 be very high. The torque will be correspondingly high; but is often
 still not enough to jump the rotor from a dead stop up to synchronous
 speed in a single cycle. The motor might lurch forward; or even
 *backward* (if that happened to be the closest direction to make shaft
 position and AC waveforms match). Or just sit there and vibrate, trying
in vain to catch
 one of the cars in that train of rapidly passing AC sinewaves.

 Also, once running, the synchronous motor needs to be wound so its
 back EMF at synchronous RPM just happens to be the AC supply voltage.
 If the supply voltage is high, the motor still runs but has a lagging
 power factor. If the supply voltage is low, it has a leading power
 factor. Both of these lead to increased I2R losses and thus poorer
efficiency.

 Most fixed 60Hz AC synchronous motors are modified to reduce these
 problem. Synchronous-hysteresis motors have no permanent magnets; but
 use a hard magnetic rotor material that self-magnetizes once it's
 running (and de-magnetizes when it stops). Synchronous-induction
 motors bury the magnets inside a conventional induction rotor that
 is used to start the motor. Or a wound-rotor synchronous motor, with
 slip rings so the field can be controlled externally.

 That said... I do think there is hope for driving a true synchronous

Re: [EVDL] DIY EV air conditioning?

[Joe via EV]

I'm on my 4th iteration of air-conditioning scheme.  The latest is building
a controller to run a 2nd gen prius a/c compressor. I have a thread going
on DIYecar here:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-controller-04-09-prius-c-140346.html

It's worked well so far at up to 105F outside despite speed limitations
(due to only a 144v pack) and power draw was only about 1.5kW.  I just got
it working a few months ago so we'll see if it lasts the summer.

Just some initial thoughts, I spent a lot of time/money flushing the hoses
and heat exchangers to get all the PAG oil out (eats at the motor windings
apparently).  Also spent extra money on having new hoses made.  Since
you'll be starting from scratch, you won't have to do either if you go the
prius compressor route.  Also, if you'd rather avoid hacking a controller
together, you could hack the communication protocol to the 3rd gen prius
compressor which has its controller built in.

Previous attempts were:
- ice water and a fan.  was easy to try, but laughable for phoenix.
- use a single phase compressor out of a 5000 BTU window a/c unit with a
homemade inverter - not enough cooling capacity, need more like 10k-12k
BTU/hr.
- use a 3.5 HP treadmill motor to run the original a/c compressor.  Failed
miserably, not enough power to even get it turning past a few RPM.
- use a 5 HP single phase 240VAC air compressor motor to turn the original
a/c compressor powered by a homemade 240VAC single phase inverter.  The
motor is readily available, so reasonably cheap.  This setup worked well
from a cooling perspective, but terribly inefficient and drew 3-4 kw on the
hottest days and not much less on the warm days.  My electronics failed on
its second summer, so I spent the winter working on the prius a/c project.

A friend of mine has a porsche and belt drives his compressor off the tail
shaft of the drive motor.  It was easy to do, but is about as inefficient
as my attempt to use a second motor to drive the original a/c compressor.
And, gotta rev the motor while at a stop light to keep the compressor going.
http://electricporsche924.blogspot.com/2014/09/ac-update.html

Joe

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 So, I can imagine all sorts of ways that one might run air conditioning in
 an electric vehicle, but I'm sure others have actually tried and done
 different ways and likely figured out the best general approach.

 Any of those others reading these words and care to point me in a good
 direction?

 This'll be starting from scratch in a vehicle that never had air
 conditioning in the first place but for which both factory and aftermarket
 air conditioning systems are available that run off of a pulley on the ICE
 engine.

 Thanks,

 b
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Re: [EVDL] Success!

[Joe via EV]

In Arizona, an evaporative cooler is very effective most of the year and is
ideal for a garage.  Even on the hottest days, 95F air out of the swamp
cooler is better than nothing, and you'd still get much cooler air at
night.  Or, run the window a/c instead on the hottest/humid days.

http://www.azcentral.com/weather/articles/evap.html

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On May 31, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Jay Summet j...@summet.com wrote:

  but proably not at all
  worth the time/effort.

 Ah, well. 'Twas a thought

  My understanding is that the 20%-80% range is the
  safe range.

 Certainly makes things easier...take the time to charge to 80%, program
 the car to start charging so it'll finish by 6:00 am (always with a few
 degrees of the coolest time of day), and forget about it otherwise.

 They might be open to keeping the window A/C unit in the garage for the
 purposes of keeping the batteries cool. Seems like that might be the only
 other measure worth considering.

 Thanks, all -- but I certainly would welcome any other creative ideas
 anybody might have!

 b
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: Motor control

[Joe via EV]

Having been involved with the Open Revolt project, I'm a little biased.
 But I think it would be ideal for this project since you would have access
to the source code and hardware schematics.  That would allow you to either
modify the software or hardware to suit your needs.

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/ReVolt
http://www.paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/page6.html

The kit is 144V/500A and would be suitable for someone of moderate
electronics skill.  If you're more adventurous, others have made their own
power section to handle higher current and voltage, so that's certainly
possible.


On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 8:58 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On Jul 24, 2014, at 5:41 AM, Collin Kidder coll...@kkmfg.com wrote:

  We've mostly been focused on trying to support the higher end OEM
 controllers we've been getting out of bankrupt companies and salvage.

 Then...can you point me in the direction of a supported controller worth
 considering for this project, or at least how I'd go about making an
 intelligent choice?

 I'm not completely opposed to the idea of pioneering generic 5 V
 controller support, but it's not my area of expertise, so it likely
 shouldn't be the only option I consider.

 b
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Re: [EVDL] How crazy am I?

[Joe via EV]

Ben,

Sounds like a fun project that surely would be possible.  Probably complex,
but surely possible!

I can comment about owning a conversion in Phoenix as this is the third
summer I've had my EV on the road (http://evalbum.com/2358).  My pack is
large, 45x CALB 180's and is in the trunk.  I just installed some
temperature sensors in between cells in a few places in my pack before this
summer started.  Some observations during the summer:
- Driving 50 miles straight (about half the pack capacity) causes a
temperature rise of about 15F
- When parked in the sun all day while at work, cell temp is usually about
equal to the forecasted high for that day.
- When parked in the sun all day with a car cover, cell temp is still
usually about equal to the forecasted high for that day (but the cabin is a
bit cooler!)
- The next morning after parking the car outside, the cell temps read about
5F above the forecasted low.
- My charger is in the trunk which has just a few holes to passively let
air in/out.  When charging overnight, the cell temp the next morning has
only dropped a few degrees from the previous day's forecasted high.
- If I crack open the trunk at night and put in a small computer muffin fan
to circulate air inside, cell temps read equivalent to the forecasted low
the next morning.
- My cells are grouped in a large bank of 33 cells (3x11) and two small
banks of 6.  The two small banks seem to cool faster likely because they
have more exposed surface area.  They are cooler in the morning than the
large bank.
- It's tough to measure, but I think I've lost about 10-12% capacity in 3
years so far.  I'm sure the heat plays a role in that.

A friend of mine here converted a porsche with 70 cells of CALB 60's, about
half the capacity of my pack.  His cells are exposed to ambient air so he
gets some passive cooling during driving.  He typically sees about a 10F
rise above ambient.

Take from this what you will, but my conclusions are that active cooling
would be minimally effective in lowering the temperature of a large mass of
batteries for the short amount of time you'd be driving.  This is
especially true since presumably you won't be cooling the cells while the
car is parked.  If I were to rebuild my pack, I'd probably space out the
bank of 33 cells to expose some more surface area.  I'd also automate a
vent fan that cooled that pack down at night by drawing in outside air and
I'd change the charger cooling scheme so it wasn't dumping heat into the
same space as the batteries.

Joe




On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On Jul 19, 2014, at 2:58 PM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

  On the question, I have an opinion. The only very successful Real
 Hybrid
  conversions have been those which replace the ICE with a smaller unit and
  transmission and added an Electric (AC) Motor.

 May I ask...what do you mean by both real and successful...?

 The latter, particularly...not every project has the same goals for
 success, and something that one person might consider a complete waste
 would be the ideal solution for another. Witness most commercial EVs on the
 road today; many people would call them overpriced and so lacking in range
 as to be toys, yet many people reading these words can't imagine going back
 to burning gasoline.

 b
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Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

[Joe via EV]

Dennis,

The vibration characteristic you describe is common with involute spline
connections (I've seen this here at work).  When splines are loaded, the
male spline is centered in the female spline by the tooth loads.

Run the same set unloaded and this natural centering ability goes away.
 Now, one spline is offset relative to the other which creates a larger
mass unbalance and higher vibration.

I'm unfamiliar with your vehicle so i have no idea if something like this
is applicable.  Perhaps there is some type of joint that behaves similarly
and maybe has worn a bit to allow extra motion when unloaded.

Joe


On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

 I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
 Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration
 is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
 When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very
 bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

 Thanks;
 Dennis



 -Original Message-
 From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
 To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you get
 the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.

 The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at the
 58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed
 replacing.

 Jay


 On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
  Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
  balanced. No change.
 
  I’m guessing it’s either the angle on the motor/transmission in
  relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
  motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
  When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I’m getting some
  vibration, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as when I drive. Here
  again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when I
  let off the accelerator at those speeds.
 
  Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
  http://evalbum.com/3715
 
 
 
 
 
  From: Daniel Busby [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May
  27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
  List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration
 
  I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
  you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.
 
  My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the
  time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
  streets in the meantime.
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
  ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know if
  anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.
 
  Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on the
  highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When
  accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the
  accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the
  accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and
  lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and
  have had the front end aligned.
 
  Any suggestions ?
 
 
  Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
  http://evalbum.com/3715
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

[Joe via EV]

Oh, sorry - I was addressing the Dennis of the original email where he
mentions that the vibration is worse when it is unloaded - See below.

On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

 I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
 Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration
 is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
 When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very
 bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

 Thanks;
 Dennis


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