Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Cybertruck buyer's remorse not allowed?

[Jorg Brown via EV]

Just curious, Ryan: Now that we know the single-motor version is at least
two years out, and will start at 60K instead of 40K, how does that change
your plans?

My personal theory is that they were originally going to stick with their
announced pricing, and try to block resale, but then they changed their
mind as they asked themselves, "Hey, why don't WE play the part of the
scalpers?  We could get $20K more for each truck!"

-- Jorg

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:27 PM Ryan Fulcher via EV 
wrote:

> If your the second hand buyer, you have no legal obligation to wait a
> year... Lol... Just sayin'
>
> I have two reservations, and am wondering how I'll let a brother or friend
> leverage the second one...  Although, the second (~40k) is a single motor,
> so it might take a year to get to that variant, and so by then I can sell
> my first (~7k) trip motor and update the other to a quad motor plaid
> version, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Does anyone really think Tesla can last?

[Jorg Brown via EV]

GM is still around
Chrysler is still around (albeit as part of Fiat)
Tesla lost $5.79 per share over the last four quarters, or about a billion
dollars.
Uber and Lyft are each still around despite the fact that they each also
lose about a billion dollars per year.

Honestly I have a hard time comprehending what could be so bad that it
could take Tesla down.  Their single biggest asset isn't the gigafactories
or the supercharger network; it's the Tesla brand, which is extremely
strong.

= - = - =

In any case, there was a much stronger case against Tesla in 2008.  Their
only car, the Roadster, had been delayed for more than a year, and Tesla
was trying to sell 2-seater electric vehicles at a cost of $100,000 each at
the same time the "Great Recession" was hitting.  This was before they had
a supercharger network; heck it was before they had cars that could
supercharge.  Most of their funding came from one guy: Elon Musk, and he
was going broke in part because he was also trying to start a rocket
company which was competing, not with other companies, but with other
*nations*.

Many, many people who were looking into the details of all this were
thinking amongst themselves, wow, this is going to be one of the most
spectacular failures ever.  *But damn, this is a really fun car to drive*.

I was one of those people.  I look at Tesla and I wonder, how the hell can
this possibly turn out well?  After 10 years, I still won't bet on Tesla as
a company... but I sure as hell don't bet against them. I just mentally put
Tesla in a class of companies where the rules, for whatever reason, don't
apply.   It's like seeing an Anvil outside of my third-floor window, just
floating there.  I know it should fall, but it's been 10 years and it
hasn't.  Unlike a floating Anvil, the case for Tesla's survival is much
better now than it was 10 or even 5 years ago.

There are other companies where revenues are going up but profits are not,
and maybe they give a better feel for what the hell is going in with
Tesla:
https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2014/9/4/why-amazon-has-no-profits-and-why-it-works
(Note that article is from 2014, when Amazon, then 20 years old, still
hand't turned a decent profit.)

= - = - =


On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 8:26 AM Damon Henry via EV 
wrote:

> I'm a big Tesla fan and they have been mentioned in a couple of the recent
> ongoing threads quite a bit.  Personally I do not see how they can last.  I
> will be surprised if they are still in business in 5 years.  Their business
> model seems to be try to build enough hype to keep drawing in investors and
> don't worry about the fact that we are losing hundreds of millions of
> dollars a quarter year after year.  The Model 3 bump gave them a couple of
> quarters of profits and now they are right back where they started and
> likely worse.
>
> I wonder what happens to the software updates and supercharger network
> when they are gone...
>
> They have sold a lot of really great cars and forever changed the
> automotive marketplace.  I just don't see how they can last as a company.
>
> If they do fail, there will surely be Tesla DIY internet resources that
> dwarf anything the EVDL has ever been 
>
> Damon
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (spied) Tesla Pickup Test Mule EVs transported on car-carrier

[Jorg Brown via EV]

If that's really an F-150 truck body around some Tesla internals, why does
it have a tailpipe?

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 11:25 PM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-pickup-truck-test-mule-sighting/
> Tesla pickup truck potential test mule spotted on carrier near testing
> facility
> March 7, 2019  Simon Alvarez
>
> [image  / streff/Reddit)
>
> https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/tesla-pickup-truck-test-mule-camouflage-1.jpg
> ]
>
> An eagle-eyed member of the Tesla community might have just snapped the
> first picture of a Tesla pickup truck test mule. The sighting transpired on
> Wednesday in Ohio, and it involved a truck car carrier full of Tesla
> electric cars, plus one heavily wrapped pickup truck with a Ford F-150
> body.
>
> Tesla has used the body of other vehicles for its test mules in the past.
> Before the company unveiled the Tesla Semi, a test mule of the electric
> long-hauler was spotted with what appeared to be a Cascadia truck body. A
> video of the vehicle even showcased the now-recognizable acceleration of
> the
> all-electric truck. Thus, it will not be too surprising if Tesla is
> adopting
> the same strategy with its pickup truck test mule, using a Ford F-150 body
> for the vehicle.
>
> Also interesting is that the sighting of the camouflaged pickup truck
> happened in Eastern Ohio. The area is close to the Transportation Research
> Center Inc. (TRC), where Tesla is known to conduct vehicle testing. Back in
> 2017, sightings of almost a hundred Model 3 were reported at TRC’s
> facilities as the vehicles were undergoing tests. Could the mysterious
> pickup truck and its fellow Teslas be headed towards (or perhaps leaving)
> the testing facility? Such a scenario is not implausible.
>
> Together with the mysterious pickup were several Teslas that were covered
> in
> road dust, grime, and salt. A Model 3 at the rear of the car carrier even
> had a long rectangular license plate, suggesting that it was a vehicle
> designated for Europe (credit to r/TeslaMotors subreddit member u/streff
> for
> the photo of the vehicle).
>
> Elon Musk has stated that the Tesla Pickup Truck will be unveiled sometime
> later this year. The Tesla CEO has also mentioned that the vehicle will be
> very futuristic to the point where it will not look out of place on the set
> of the Blade Runner franchise. Musk has also teased some of the vehicle’s
> features, including a range of 400-500 miles per charge, dual motor AWD,
> and
> a 240-volt connection for heavy-duty tools, and up to 300,000 pounds of
> towing capacity.
> [© teslarati.com]
>
>
>
> http://www.autospies.com/news/Tesla-Pickup-Test-Mule-Caught-In-The-Wild-98653/
> Tesla Pickup Test Mule Caught In The Wild!
> The sighting transpired on Wednesday in Ohio, and it involved a truck car
> carrier full of Tesla electric cars, plus one heavily wrapped pickup truck
> with a Ford F-150 body. Tesla has used the body of ...
>
> http://www.autospies.com/images/users/Agent009/main/tesla-pickup-truck-test-mule-camouflage-1.jpg
>
>
> +
>
> https://www.yorkregion.com/opinion-story/9213004-do-i-deserve-my-new-tesla-electric-car-/
> Do I deserve my new Tesla electric car?
> 2019-03-08   So, the question still remains: Do I deserve an electric car?
> My mind plays tricks on me about this question. Three years ago, I
> “downsized my life” and moved to ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Halbach near-monopole e-motor> Focused Magnetics

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:

> What a bunch of baloney. If a motor is already 95% efficient, how do you
> double its efficiency?
>

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Just remember: it's unlikely Catalan himself made this claim; he probably
said something more like "cuts wasted electromagnetic fields by half" and
the reporter wrote it down as doubling efficiency.


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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> They were put at the most convenient spots because we wanted those who
> might become early adopters and those that create emissions to have an
> incentive for doing so.
>

Yeah, I know; I remember those days and it seemed like a good idea at the
time.  I still know of places that have a "hybrid or electric car parking
only" sign, even though there is no charger there.

It works fine unless there is a shortage of parking spaces.  Once there's a
shortage, the situation changes: now you're not just saying that the
non-hybrid folks have to walk further; you're telling them that they may
have to walk much, much further, or even not come at all.  Not such a big
deal if there are often EVs or Hybrids in those spots, but if those spots
are usually empty, you just create resentment.  And resentment plays into
the hands of the "long tailpipe" crowd.

It's not just EV spots where this happens: here at work there is a shortage
of parking, but the handicapped spots and pregnant-mother spots are often
empty.
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Re: [EVDL] Combating ICED EV parking spaces

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Yep, the first impulse is to be reactive. Unless you have the force to
> win, that usually results in an escalation or divisiveness. I read a
> political advice comment by someone who essentially recommended:
>
> - first agree with the person,
> - listen, build trust,
> - then present your needs without pushing an agenda.
>
> Meaning: understand that he sees no harm in parking in a space that is
> always vacant. You never know what the solution may turn out to be until
> you hear more. In your case, it might be hard to have that conversation,
> but a note with a phone number or email address could be a start.


I agree: you have to start out trying to understand their position, and
then see how you can bring them to your side.

Something to the effect of "I understand you probably don't see any harm in
parking here, since this space is usually vacant.  And certainly, if this
were the only vacant spot, and you were only going to be here a few
minutes, you'd probably park here.  However please understand that for an
electric vehicle owner like me, this spot is like my gas station - I have
to park at spots like this fo "fill up".   Just as you wouldn't park next
to a pump at a gas station if you weren't filling up with gas, please don't
park here unless you're filling up with electricity."

As a side note, this is why I tell anyone who'll listen that the best spots
for EV charging are those spots that are inconvenient.  Unfortunately the
reality of existing electricity outlets/connections makes that infeasible
much of the time.
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Re: [EVDL] Chronic EV-despiser Clarkson swayed (!?!)> sez has no issue w/ Electric propulsion (v)

[Jorg Brown via EV]

I don't know why people view Top Gear's review of the Roadster so
negatively.  OK sure, they rolled it back into their garage as if it had
run out of electricity when in fact it had not...but the point they were
making was one of how long it takes to charge the car and how inconvenient
that was at the time (there were no Tesla Superchargers at the time, and
almost no public charging infrastructure.)  And it's absolutely true that
if you run the car around the track, it will last far less than its claimed
range of 200 miles.  I believe their show claimed 55 miles.

That show also included this great quote: "What we have here then is an
astonishing technical achievement: the first electric car that you might
actually want to buy."  (right before things go south)

On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:28 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> % ?An about-turn/flip-flop to pr season2 of their streamed TVshow featuring
> a snaffled/nicked Tesla EV? %
>
> http://www.carscoops.com/2017/12/clarkson-says-he-has-no-issue-with.html
> Clarkson Says He Has No Issue With Electric Vehicles
> Dec 6, 2017  Brad Anderson
>
> However, in the near decade since the former Top Gear host’s infamous
> review
> of the Tesla Roadster, electric cars have come a long way. So, have
> Clarkson’s views changed as well?
>
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Re: [EVDL] Towing with a Bolt

[Jorg Brown via EV]

It's bad to tow with a vehicle that can't handle the weight.  And because
of the battery weight, the car is already quite heavy.

In addition to excess wear on the tires, you may be depressing your shock
absorbers close to their limit, giving you a bumpy ride at best and busted
shocks at worst.

There's no issue with volts or amps; the primary thing that will happen as
far as electricity is concerned is that the car won't go as far on a full
charge.

-- Jorg

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:59 PM, Bob Bath via EV  wrote:

> Hi All,
>My bro asked me a question I never worried about with Civicwithacord,
> nor my LEAF: Why is it so bad to toe with an EV?/Warranty voiding?
>
> My first answer was of course, range drop with rolling resistance and
> added weight requiring more amps.
> My second answer was guessing that more amps mean more heat as well as
> worse voltage sag on the traction pack. But am I missing anything else?
>
> Appreciatively,
>
> Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat
> fingers on a small device, not cluelessness..
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:
> Flex-fuel vehicles are notorious for *never* running on anything but
> regular gas,

What??  That's bonkers.  At least where I live, E85 is way cheaper ( see
https://goo.gl/maps/FCHNRzSm7TF2 ) - $2.45 per gallon versus $3.01 per
gallon for regular unleaded.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:

> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
>
> California data shows a big problem with folks not even bothering to
> charge them.
>

Really?  I was just reading
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102004_why-isnt-the-2016-chevy-volt-a-flex-fuel-plug-in-hybrid-that-can-use-e85-ethanol
and it said:

> And Chevrolet's data on driving and usage patterns for more than
> 80,000 Volts indicates that nine out of every 10 trips taken in the
> longer-range 2016 Volt will be powered exclusively from grid
> electricity used to recharge the battery.
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 7:09 AM, Jukka Järvinen via EV 
wrote:

> What it comes to better electrolytes.. that is HARD! The testing cycle to
> confirm lifetime and usability is way too long. Accelerated aging tests are
> not the same at all to real life use.


And on that note, see https://goo.gl/xoQKha

Instead of lithium, researchers at UC Irvine have used gold nanowires to
> store electricity, and have found that their system is able to far outlast
> traditional lithium battery construction. The Irvine team's system cycled
> through 200,000 recharges without significant corrosion or decline.


> However, they don't exactly know why. The original idea of the experiment
> was to make a solid-state battery: one that uses an electrolyte gel, rather
> than liquid, to help hold charge. Liquid batteries, like the common lithium
> variety, are extremely combustible and sensitive to temperature. The Irvine
> team was experimenting by substituting a much thicker gel.


> "We started to cycle the devices, and then realized that they weren't
> going to die," said Reginald Penner, a lead author of the paper. "We don't
> understand the mechanism of that yet."
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Re: [EVDL] Off-grid solar house and electric car charging

[Jorg Brown via EV]

As I understand it, the DC output from solar panels is not at a fixed
voltage, so you end up having to convert one DC voltage to another in order
to power your house appliances.  This DC-to-DC conversion isn't necessarily
any more efficient than the DC-to-AC conversion that you would normally
have to do.  And the cost of buying new appliances than can deal with DC is
not small.

There are other better ways of avoiding inefficiency, I think.  One is that
many panels are set up in series, which means that if any one cell is
covered by shade, the output of the entire system is reduced. (Use a
different inverter technology, and set up your cells in parallel, to avoid
this)  Another is that high temperature reduces the efficiency of cells.
 (One way is to put the entire system on top of water, which will limit how
hot it gets)

On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 7:29 PM, Larry Gales via EV 
wrote:

> If you build an off-grid solar house and use it for both your house and
> charging your electric car, are there any disadvantages for using DC
> current (household appliances can all be converted to DC) and avoiding AC
> since you are off the grid?  You avoid the cost, maintenance, and (slight)
> inefficiency of inverters, but are there significant disadvantages to this
> approach?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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Re: [EVDL] Faraday Future: a Billionare.cn funded .com trolling for Tesla-wannabe investment$

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Gail Lucas via EV 
wrote:

> As many on this list are all over the world or know what is happening
> everywhere I thought someone might have actually touched a prototype, maybe
> seen one move or done a test drive. I would like to not have NV residents
> pay for a company that is not going to materialize. When Tesla arrived they
> were quite well established, had many vehicles for show and tell. So far,
> no one that I know of has seen anything built by Faraday, except a lot of
> PR releases.
>
> Still anxious for any reports to the contrary.
>

Yours was the first story I've seen that mentioned LeEco, the Chinese
company behind Faraday Future.  I see that they're also marketing a
self-driving sedan.

Are they selling cars into the Chinese market yet?
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Re: [EVDL] French man electrocuted while trying to steal petrol from an EV> a burning smell was noticed

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Bill Woodcock via EV 
wrote:

>
> > On May 26, 2016, at 12:05 PM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> > The BS detector is going wild on this one.
>
> …and it was pulled from the news site pretty much immediately.  So I think
> we can chalk this one up to bad reporting.
>

While I admit the story sounds like BS - especially the part about
neighbors woken at night by the smell of this burning man, the story is
still alive at
http://lechodelaboucle.fr/2016/05/24/penurie-dessence-meurt-electrocute-tentant-de-siphonner-voiture-electrique/

Google Translate says:

The fuel shortage has claimed its first victim this morning in the Chaprais
district in Besançon.

Besancon *- "Although ill-gotten never profit" * This is a wise proverb
which would probably benefited this unfortunate Bisontin if he had survived
the dramatic misadventure which he suffered that night in the neighborhood
of Chaprais.

The tank of his car being almost dry and the city's petrol stations that
might not be supplied due to the current blockage of refineries, Bisontin
forty years nightly decides to anticipate the siphoning tank of a car
parked in a discrete curve of a street near the train station Viotte.

Although evil has taken him the vehicle in question was an electric car and
a powerful electric arc quickly overcame the criminal intentions of the
individual. Awakened by a strong smell of burning, residents quickly warned
firefighters who, despite their rapid response, have done anything for the
unfortunate.

Image Credits: Rama / Creative Commons

The same news source has a story about a woman who found the body of her
missing husband in the toaster...
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Upgraded 2016 Tesla-S 90D is the first 300mi/483km production Electric car

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Certainly not true in my case.  If I drive my leaf on a highway at 50mph,
> I get 4 miles/kWh in nice weather.  City is about 2.5 - 3.  Almost all my
> driving is city.
>

50?!?  If I drove my EV on a highway at 50mph, I'd get honked off the
road!!
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Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla

[Jorg Brown via EV]

Stewart Alsop is not just any customer.  You'd be better off thinking of
him as a reporter.  It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but think of
it as: Elon Musk is to Stewart Alsop as Donald Trump is to Megyn Kelly.  As
a business person, would you want to piss off Megyn Kelly or Brian Williams
or Ted Koppel?  That's just stupid.  https://medium.com/@salsop has 2900
followers, and https://twitter.com/salsop has 13,400 followers.  Why would
you take a bad experience and magnify it that much?

I've seen Tesla go way out of their way to turn bad customers into good
ones.  I know someone who was so pissed off at Tesla that she was calling
attorneys, simultaneously investigating the California lemon law and a
class-action lawsuit.  But the Sunnyvale Tesla service center turned her
around.  I mean, wow.  (Aside: Tesla customer service really is
exceptional.)  Elon should have apologized for being late, thanked Stewart
for his time in attendance, and promised that in the future the food would
be better and there would be more cars to look at, if not to drive.  I
don't know why he didn't do that in this case.

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Elon might have felt insulted but he is enough of a businessman that he
> recognizes a bad deal and the blogger is now beating himself that he was
> such a BLIEP and continue to feel stoopid in his BMW while everyone has a
> field day and understand that owning a Testa may require some class, it is
> not for rude losers. I consider this a brilliant move from Elon. No wonder
> they do not need a marketing dept.
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Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:39 AM, dovepa via EV  wrote:

> I disagree. Why do business with a person you expect to criticize your
> work?
> Next think he'll be writing about how dissatisfied he is with the car.
>

By that logic, car companies would never sell to car magazines or newspaper
reporters.

I once dropped by a Tesla store in the L.A. area to ask about new changes
to the S.  It turns out the guy I was talking to was not a regular
salesperson, but actually worked in the design department.  He was super
eager to hear actual customer complaints, just as I was happy to hear about
the changes they had made (although, of course, those changes wouldn't
affect my driving experience unless I wanted to trade in, and I don't).

It's too bad Elon doesn't have more of that attitude.

I don't know what Alsop was like on the phone, but his blog comments were
right on target: the event *was* too crowded, the food *was* terrible, it
*did* start way late, and it's absurd to have to wait until 1AM for a test
drive, given the event invites suggested getting there by 7ish.
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Re: [EVDL] Acquitted: Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, pepper-sprayed +

[Jorg Brown via EV]

This is not justice, not yet.  The officers claimed this happened after 11
but the bystanders say it happened before 11.  At that point, it throws
into question every other claim that these officers made.

On facebook it's more clear that racism may have been a factor.

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Hurray for justice!  But what a load to go through for Palmer.  Can't the
 police learn how to deal with situations like this in a more tolerable way
 - like watching for menacing indications before taking action?

 Peri
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Re: [EVDL] Tell Toyota what you think of their Fool cell vehicle

[Jorg Brown via EV]

Surely, rather than fighting _against_ FCVs, we should be fighting _with_
them, against our common enemy the internal combustion engine?

https://youtu.be/kHHitXxH-us?t=44s

(I'm not a big fan of FCVs, but it seems to me they will go away on their
own; we don't need to hasten their demise, other than perhaps to get states
like California to stop spending our taxes on them.)

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Earlier today, I  got an email from Toyota promoting their Fool Cell
 vehicle (with no reply address).

 So I went to the Toyota web site and found the CONTACT link and filled out
 an on-line email telling them to stop throwing good money after bad in
 last years ideas (Fool cells) and to come out with a competitive Toyota
 BEV...

 IN less than 3 hours, I got a response:

 We are sorry to hear of your concerns with Toyota's positioning of the
 fuel cell vehicle. We respect your opinions regarding both
 battery-electric vehicles and the FCV, and have documented your comments
 at our National Headquarters, where they remain available for review from
 the appropriate departments. It is through feedback such as yours we are
 able to monitor and improve upon the quality of our products and
 services.

 If they are actively sending out a broad reach advertising campaign for
 their FCV, then they are also obviously open to feedback!

 Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On Mar 17, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

  However, fork lift batteries cost many thousands of dollars. And they
 weigh many times more than an EV pack. And yet they *do* routinely swap
 them anyway.

 Yes and no.

 The owners of the forklifts and the batteries swap the batteries in and
 out the same way you yourself might swap the batteries on your cordless
 drill.

 But what the owners of the forklifts _aren't_ doing is swapping batteries
 with some other company that charges them. That's the part that doesn't
 make economic sense.


Right.  With a forklift, you own 2 or 3 batteries, and you do the swap.
The only economic change is that the battery becomes slightly more valuable
as you charge it, and then less valuable as you use it (and depreciate
it).  Your total economic investment isn't changing by several thousand
dollars up or down when you swap, and there's no opportunity for you to
ditch your pack onto some other poor guy because you fried it that time
when you left the forklift lights on all night.
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Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...

[Jorg Brown via EV]

A long time ago, I ate dinner with Martin Eberhard, and the subject of
battery swap came up. He was incredibly dismissive of the idea. He said the
first problem is safety: to pass the required safety standards, you've got
to attach the pack very, very firmly - a problem you don't have with things
like Fundamentally the problem is economics: in a car you have a $100 tank
that you're filling up with $50 of fuel.  But in an EV, you have a $40,000
pack that you're filling up with $5 of fuel. And that's just crazy.
Swapping an old pack for a new one means you might get an increase of
$20,000 in value for the $20 cost of a swap.  In the 8 years since that
dinner, the price of a pack has gone down, and the price of the electricity
up, but the imbalance is still there: you're filling a $20,000 tank with
$10 of electrons.  It makes almost as much sense to just swap out the car.

One thing I'll never forget: his comment about Shai.  Shai Agassi is
leading the fight for battery swap not because it's a good idea, but
because he has incredible charisma.  And in the end, that will be
incredibly important, because battery swapping is going to fail and he'll
need every ounce of that charisma to convince people to go in a new
direction

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 I always wondered why someone as smart as Tesla would stoop to the
 stupidest idea ever (battery swapping) for highway EV’s.  Surely they
 understood EV’s enough to know that EV’s generally charge while parked, not
 while in use.  But then Superchargers make it possible for distant
 convenient travel…

 So how could Tesla be so dumb to invest in “battery swap”…

 The answer, is smarter than we thought…


 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097214_tesla-battery-swapping-useful-service-or-minimal-effort-for-extra-income

 It looks like all they had to do was demonstrate ONE working battery-swap
 station and then they got full extra credit for the California State
 requirement for full-range-replenishment in under 10 minutes.  They met
 that goal (one station) and then collected $66,000,000 in EV credits!

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Re: [EVDL] Battery Swap - the stupid idea that wont die...

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jorg Brown jorg.br...@gmail.com wrote:

 A long time ago, I ate dinner with Martin Eberhard, and the subject of
 battery swap came up. He was incredibly dismissive of the idea. He said the
 first problem is safety: to pass the required safety standards, you've got
 to attach the pack very, very firmly - a problem you don't have with things
 like


This should have read a problem you don't have with things like a
Forklift.
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