Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)

2024-03-11 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

We have 240 volt systems of course (stove/dryer and less common nema 6-15 
etc..). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us 
households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the panel and 
have split transformers like we have but rather they groundone leg as a neutral)

That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above 
ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.


   On Monday, March 11, 2024, 12:46:12  PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  

I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and 
most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they 
are.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

2024-03-10 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
My AHJ nor my brothers did not enforce it so we've had a different experience.  
 


   On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:45:01 PM PDT, (-Phil-)  
wrote:  
 
 The NEC definitely accounts for this since 2011, and I know from experience 
AHJs enforce it.   (705.12 D 2)

There are 2 ways:1. Derate: Replace the main with a lower amperage, or:2. End 
Feed: Install the solar breaker at the opposite end of the busbars and put a 
sign that states: "SOLAR PV BREAKER - BREAKER IS BACKFED, DO NOT RELOCATE!"
Most brands of panels also now over-rate the busbars for this reason on at 
least some of their models.

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:52 PM Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:

I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it, but 
maybe some don't.
Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some 
electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used to 
back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually look 
the other way.

The problem is as follows.
Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.    It has a big 200 amp breaker at the 
top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine that you 
have a 40 amp solar.
So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance and 
you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).    No problem as the main 
breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40 amps of 
solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from the power 
company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.    But the 
important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially seeing 200 
amps).    Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so now the bus 
bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't flip (because it's 
now it only sees 200 amps.
So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are 
rated for.
The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps but 
almost nobody does that.

But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not really 
correct.
Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a 
solar panel not being entirely kosher.


  
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Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array

2024-03-10 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I'm going to chime in with a point.   Probably plenty all ready know it, but 
maybe some don't.
Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some 
electrical rules.   The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used to 
back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually look 
the other way.

The problem is as follows.
Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.    It has a big 200 amp breaker at the 
top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine that you 
have a 40 amp solar.
So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance and 
you are drawing 200 amps.  (or a tiny bit less).    No problem as the main 
breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet.  Now turn on the 40 amps of 
solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from the power 
company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances.    But the 
important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially seeing 200 
amps).    Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps)  so now the bus 
bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't flip (because it's 
now it only sees 200 amps.
So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are 
rated for.
The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps but 
almost nobody does that.

But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not really 
correct.
Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a 
solar panel not being entirely kosher.

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

2024-01-14 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Good point.    The "Gizmo"  EV steering was 2 levers on the floor,  I guess 
like some trikes.

I remember the quote from the Tanenbaum  book"The great thing about 
standards is there are just so many to choose from."..

On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 05:59:43 PM PST, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Anyone who has driven a Ford model T can certainly attest to the challenges of 
having all the controls in the "wrong" locations. (OK, the steering wheel is 
the same as modern cars; but nothing else).

The early EVs also had considerably different controls. How about tiller 
steering? :-)

The tiller also had a hand grip that you rotated forward to accelerate, and 
backward for braking. Backward would give you *plenty* of electric braking 
force!

Lee
--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

2024-01-13 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV


Stopgiving...them...ideas
On Saturday, January 13, 2024, 9:39:14 AM PST, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:  
Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature. 
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be "unique"?

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

2024-01-13 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Meh...It's too small of a sample and far too early to say whether "The Market" 
has decided.   The good news is EV's in general are doing prettywell and 
obviously we have a pretty diverse range of strong opinions on user interfaces. 
  I think it's perfectly fair to disagree on what is obviously
personal preference.   

That said...all glass controls are the work of the devil


On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 05:37:34 AM PST, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 
On 1/12/24 22:25, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> Tesla moved controls to a touchscreen not because anyone asked for them
> there, but because Elon Musk himself, stuck in his adolescent science
> fiction world, wanted them there.
You might explain your reasoning behind that rather illogical comment.
>  
>
> Musk doesn't build cars for customers, he builds them for himself. If you
> happen to like what he likes, great.  Otherwise, tough.
Again, I can not see any reasoning on your part.  The market is clearly 
deciding whether cost effective and minimalist controls will prevail.  
Or not.  Someone can remind me what fraction of the market Tesla 
commands.  There are plenty of inferior EVs out there that are offering 
all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic obsolete cars and 
satisfies those with such fetishes.
>
> That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
> unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient
> lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly
> carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.
I see John did a fine job of refuting the above.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Cybertruck buyer's remorse not allowed?

2023-11-12 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
> Would or will YOU agree to it?
Kind of reminds me of this.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUPOvcolNZg





-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
 

On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 04:02:04 PM PST, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I've been saying for years that if you buy a Tesla, you don't really own it.

It seems that goes double for the Cybertruck.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-sue-cybertruck-buyers-they-resell-in-
first-year-2023-11

shortcut URL: https://v.gd/QA68vz

I'm sure there must be a good reason for this - right?  

Would or will YOU agree to it?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] California solicits applications for $40 million in NEVI EV charging grants

2023-11-04 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Honestly I think slow charging during daylight hours at places of work or 
shopping could be more appreciated.
Since solar is becoming more and more popular, it makes sense to charge the car 
during the daylight hours at work.
If you are going to promote something...


On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 06:39:23 PM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Paul Dove wrote:
> Weve had battery powered lawn equipment for over 10 years now
> and they still sell gasoline versions. We will never go 100% EV.

No; it will never be 100%. But it could easily reach 50% or even more within 
our lifetimes. Longer term, it may well get very close to 100% EV.

100 years ago, ICEs started replacing horses. A century later, there are 
*still* a small percentage of people using horses. But the vast majority of 
people use ICEs.

Le
--
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--
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Re: [EVDL] Smaller is not really cheaper (was: Tesla slashes its car prices as much as 20% to prop up sagging sales, where?s the $30K EV? A Chevy Bolt?)

2023-01-22 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Sure, I mostly agree, but EV's do change that more than ICE, because with a car 
and a given range and given wind resistance, the larger car will take 
significantly more batteries to achieve the same range, and since batteries are 
a major expense and more a commoditiy, it does cost significantly more to make 
a larger EV  (if you want the same range)


 

On Sunday, January 22, 2023, 12:57:48 AM PST, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Labor is the main expense in car manufacture. Materials for a larger 
vehicle add only an incremental cost. Luxury options cost just a tiny 
faction of what they consumer pays for them. It is not uncommon that the 
luxury option is just a change to the firmware and the additional cost 
to the manufacturer is actually zero.

This is why there has always been a push for larger cars and SUV's. 
Larger = more profits.

If you consider that all cars, regardless of size, have just four 
wheels, four brakes, four tires, one engine, one steering wheel, one 
engine management computer, etc. The labor is the same to assemble, not 
matter what size the car is. As the car grows in size, it is a larger 
shell of the same thickness, but the extra internal volume is air. The 
materials scale with the surface area, and not the volume. People are 
willing to pay considerably more a larger car, but they cost close to 
the same to manufacture.

You perceive that you are buying a bigger banana, but you are in reality 
just buying a bigger banana peel. The edible/nutritious/useful portion 
is unchanged.

People buy cars for emotional reasons, not for practical reasons. The 
automakers exploit that. Why wouldn't they?


Bill D.


On 1/21/2023 12:54 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>> I keep hearing that Tesla might introduce a smaller, cheaper EV.  
>> That would
>> open up EVs to a wider range of drivers, but would also cut into their
>> profits.
>
> I continue to wonder why a smaller cheaper car would mean lower 
> profits. It seems like there are endless examples of cars (and many 
> other products) where profits *increased* when cheaper versions were 
> produced in higher volumes.
>
> A smaller car uses less materials, so can be cheaper to produce.
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Re: [EVDL] Do EVs make green sense?

2023-01-05 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

Where do you think these idiots get their information about how much energy it 
takes to build a car...or the "carbon footprint"?   

If you are actually trying to measure "energy" you need to be able to isolate 
what you are actually measuring.

Where do you draw the line about how much energy it takes to build a car?   Is 
it the energy consumption of a factory?  What about the energy consumption of 
the factories of the suppliers who make the parts...tires...glass..plastic, the 
hoses, the clamps,   If a factory buys parts from a supplier or makes them in 
house, how does that enter into the equations?   Then if you pay a worker at 
your factory, and the worker spends his wages driving monster trucksfor fun on 
weekends and goes through 100 gallons of gas, or a different worker spends the 
weekend readinga book...does that affect the "carbon  footprint"?

And then what about energy needed for the workers to get to and from work?  How 
about the energy needed to run the streetlights on the road they use to get to 
work?  How about the energy needed to heat the homes of the people who mine the 
raw materials?   How about the energy to make the food to feed the workers?   
How about the energy used by the teachers?  The schools and universities?  The 
asphalt for the roads?

Call me cynical but my guess is these people who claim to analyze carbon 
footprints are 99% full of hot air.    They don't actually go out an measure 
anything, they just repeat something they read or heard, (and often the most 
provocative things tend to get repeated)  which leads to an endless repeating 
cycle of baloney by people who crave endless attention.

I don't claim to have measured anything, but my common sense says an EV is a 
car and and ICE is a car and that my "guess" is that it is highly likely that 
the energy required to make them is (or could be) pretty damn comparable. 
By weight and volume the EV and the ICE are more alike than different.   




   On Thursday, January 5, 2023, 12:20:43 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I am trying to understand if Zeihan has an agenda. His expertise is
understanding geography and demographics. Knowing what ingredients go into
making the world go around, and details like, what does it take to make the
unique aluminum alloy that Tesla has crafted to make body parts that are
not steel. The claim is that this is significant and the carbon
footprint of an ICE made from steel is significantly better.

Regarding the inputs to EVs, certainly the availability of lithium is not
good. Nor is it good for cobalt, or nickel.  I have spent some time
thinking about the battery business, even had conversations with Jeff Dahn
and Aaron Cross (the Tesla cell life engineer). The time and commitment to
mine and process more of these material inputs could be a serious
impediment to EV growth. Regarding LiFePO, we have enough phosphate for
current use like fertilizer for crops. It takes years to build and start
operating a phosphate mine. If LiFePO is the future, we do not have a ready
supply.

I posted so maybe I could get some wisdom that is not anecdotal. Does
anyone know about the supply side of Li batteries? In 2013 when I was
studying this topic, it did not look like a sure thing.  Do we know what
sort of carbon cost is built into them? Only JB Straubel is working the
recycling angle. How is that going?

At this moment in time, EV production is nowhere near the scale necessary
to make headway reducing carbon in the atmosphere. It could be we are years
or decades from solving this. That is the gist of Zeihan's assertion. Now
that we are getting shale oil in North America, that cost is way less for
us in the US. That alone can damage the transition to EVs from ICE.

I think there is a lot of guesswork being presented to the effect that EVs
are going to be with us soon, en masse.


On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 1:59 AM Steves via EV  wrote:

> Haven’t read the article, but perhaps he assumes virgin aluminum, which is
> very energy intensive. However even if virgin aluminum is used, 90% of big
> scrap (like car) aluminum is recycled, so that energy is essentially
> reclaimed out the back end.
>
> One has to read this kind of stuff very carefully. My dad was a staunch
> conservative and listened religiously to Rush Limbaugh. RL was ranting one
> day about laws to give up regular lightbulbs for CFLs, and if you broke a
> CFL your house became a hazmat area due the (minuscule) amount of mercury.
> I had to explain that since most of our energy comes from coal, and coal
> has mercury, that regular bulbs, being so inefficient, cause much more
> mercury to be spewed into the atmosphere over the bulbs lifetime.
>
> That’s why I haven’t bothered reading the article. Beware of people with
> agendas.
>
> -Steve
>
> > On Jan 4, 2023, at 11:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Zeihan says ICE looks a lot better and leans on the aluminum in the
> Tesla
> > bodywork. I wonder about this, but don't 

Re: [EVDL] Think City noisy heater blower

2022-12-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

Didn't the Think used to have a problem with the heater?   I vaguely recall 
something about the heater circuit bricking Thinks.Thought it had something to 
do with the high voltage circuit and the inductance of the heater coil, and 
quickly turning the keyon and off but I can't recall the specifics.

Nothing to do with the blower, but in the small likelyhood you didn't know, you 
might want to research it.

On Monday, December 26, 2022 at 12:49:57 PM PST, Paul Wallace via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 My 2011 Enerdel Think City heater blower has become quite noisy and vibrates 
the dash when at the higher settings.  Has anyone else had this issue and found 
a solution?

Thanks,
Paul Wallace
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

2022-12-19 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Still, if he didn't need themwhy didn't he just start on his own?   You are 
avoiding the question.

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:05:51 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  How do you know they didn't need him?
I was under the impression that they approached him about investing.
Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

2022-12-19 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

2022-12-19 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch?

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Battery breakthrough?

2022-12-14 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

I'm not chemist, but I would suspect that batteries go "bad" for lots of 
different reasons.    I know a few tidbits here and there, but it seems in 
general chemicalreactions are not perfectly reversable because of unwanted 
byproducts and side effects.   I don't believe this can ever be completely 
eliminated, only
reduced.   Molecules can always arrange themselves lots of different 
ways...good and bad.

Where is a good source for literature about such things battery related?   
(especially Lifepo4 related)
You'd think this was a highly important subject.

 

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 01:19:00 PM PST, Jukka Järvinen via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Solid electrolyte can basically last ”forever”. So this is not actually
”news”. :)

Reason why cells go broken today is the liquid electrolyte and passivation
layers it needs. Function of time and temperature and voltage.

In theory LFP cell with solid, e.g. cellulose, electrolyte can provide
millions of cycles. Cathode already is stable enough to support that but
for anode we need some more stable 3D steuctures. Doable and plenty of good
ideas to be tested.

-Jukka


ke 14.12.2022 klo 22.53 Peter Eckhoff via EV  kirjoitti:

> Normally, I would bypass something like this except that it is from
> respected universities and their battery shows with no signs of
> degeneration after 400 cycles.  Here is the title and link and first
> paragraph:
> Scientists invent ‘game-changing’ electric car battery that never
> loses charge capacity
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/scientists-invent-game-changing-electric-car-battery-that-never-loses-charge-capacity/ar-AA15efd1?ocid=msedgdhp=U531=5703b2f9ec9647268e57552a807973cb
>
> " An international research team from the University of New South
> Wales (UNSW) in Australia and Yokohama National University in Japan
> claim the breakthrough could provide a viable and vastly superior
> alternative to current battery technologies."
>
> Does anybody here know anything about this battery?
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Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

2022-12-14 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

 Where can I learn more about this?

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 10:29:46 AM PST, (-Phil-) via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I support over 3000 "unsupported" Teslas with an alternative server system
where I redirect the car to connect to a non-Tesla server I control.  This
allows me to restore the original configuration and prevents Tesla from
further altering the cars without permission, as well as providing an app
that owners can use to have full control of the car and access to all
diagnostic data.  I've been offering this since Tesla started illegally
altering cars to disable supercharging as well as ALL fast charging in
2015.  This means even if you purchased a CHAdeMO adapter, it would not
function on a 3rd party charger.  They 100% refused to re-enable
supercharging on any "unsupported" car, which includes grey-market and
salvage.  (Grey market includes cars exported to other countries.)  They
achieve this by illegally altering the configuration of the car remotely
without the new owner's permission.  (The car controls the fast charging
function)

When the Model 3 and Y were introduced, those models enjoyed supercharging
for several years even if unsupported, mainly because the automated system
used to alter configuration on S and X was totally different from 3/Y.
This was rectified in 2020, and they started disabling all unsupported 3/Y
in 2020, even cars that had been "unsupported" and charging fine for 3
years!
https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/

You can see this in their official policy document:
https://www.scribd.com/document/425591536/TN-18-00-001-Unsupported-Vehicle-Policy

Recently they have announced they will be "opening up" their supercharger
network to ALL vehicles, and have started trials in Europe.  They will have
to install new stations in the US to enable CCS charging for other
vehicles.  These will contain a CCS whip.  They have also offered their
proprietary standard to other manufacturers:
https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard

Why?  They want in on the various government funds around the world
designed to facilitate wider installation of fast charging.  However, they
cannot qualify if they are building charging stations that are not open to
all vehicles.  This obviously means they cannot continue to block even
their own vehicles, so they are now "walking back" the unsupported vehicle
charging ban:
https://electrek.co/2022/11/09/tesla-salvage-vehicles-back-supercharger-network/



On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 5:18 AM paul dove  wrote:

> It’s been a long time since I read the story but what I remember was the
> owner refused to get it inspected by Tesla. I believe the issue was finally
> resolved
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://more.att.com/currently/imap>
>
> On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 9:38 PM, (-Phil-) via EV 
> wrote:
>
> Varies from state to state, and I doubt any state that requires it has
> inspectors qualified to make EV HV safety calls.
>
> All Tesla cars built since late 2014 have enough self-diagnostic capability
> to shut down if something goes wrong during supercharging.  (These changes
> were made after a non-salvage Tesla caught fire at a supercharger)
>
> Tesla's famous quality control is poor enough that without this
> self-diagnostic capability we would have seen a lot more serious problems,
> so a botched salvage repair is not going to really increase the danger.
>
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 7:07 PM Robert Johnston via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Don't salvaged and repaired cars need a safety inspection before they can
> > be put back on the road and registered/insured?
> >
> > On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 20:48, Lawrence Winiarski via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hmwould gas stations refuse to give gas to salvaged cars
> because
> > > the gas station might "burn down"?
> > >
> > >
> > >    On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 04:15:20 PM PST, paul dove via EV <
> > > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >  That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger.
> > > This is to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent
> > repairs.
> > > Like it or not they own the superchargers.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <
> > > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant
> > > reference:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables

Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

2022-12-11 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Hmwould gas stations refuse to give gas to salvaged cars because the 
gas station might "burn down"?


   On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 04:15:20 PM PST, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 That is not bricking a car! It will charge just not on. Supercharger. This is 
to protect superchargers from burning down not to prevent repairs. Like it or 
not they own the superchargers.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 2:32 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

Paul, I may have overstated my claim. But here's a partially relevant 
reference:
https://electrek.co/2020/02/12/tesla-disables-supercharging-salvaged-vehicles/
where Tesla has disabled supercharging on salvaged Teslas. I don't know 
if they are still doing that.

Regardless, my main point is Tesla (and others) *could* brick cars or 
certain functionality. But I don't think they will because of enormous 
public backlash.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peri Hartman" 
Sent: 11-Dec-22 11:14:10
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.

>How in the world would you know Tesla bricks batteries? Gives some 
>names and sources of you facts!
>
>
>Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone 
>
>
>On Sunday, December 11, 2022, 10:53 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
>>There's lots of malaise Tesla - and all the manufacturers, for that
>>matter - could impose. For example, certain sensors could "stop 
>>working"
>>after some particular time. Or, the right rear door lock could stop
>>functioning properly. In the worst case, they could brick the car. It
>>may be difficult to determine whether such problems are caused by a
>>software disabling action or if something actually failed. However, I 
>>am
>>not too concerned. If a manufacturer actually imposed such behaviors,
>>and were caught, they would be heavily punished. And, that would be
>>regardless of what the fine print in the purchase agreement said.
>>
>>I am aware that Tesla has bricked cars, or at least batteries put into
>>non Tesla cars. It does get into a grey area: what modifications are 
>>you
>>allowed to do and what not ? Different discussion.
>>
>>I understand, from the manufacturer's point of view, that they want 
>>and
>>need to control the software in the car. For the most part, I think
>>that's an advantage to all of us. The problem is, we have to trust 
>>them
>>to not do anything to break functionality in the future. Time will 
>>tell,
>>I guess.
>>
>>Peri
>>
>><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>
>>-- Original Message --
>>From: "John Lussmyer via EV" 
>>To: "Mr. Sharkey via EV" 
>>Cc: "John Lussmyer" 
>>Sent: 11-Dec-22 08:29:19
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Goodbye old friend.
>>
>> >On 12/11/2022 8:18 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>> >>Oh sure, I get that. Problem is, they came on at first promising 
>>affordable transportation. Then the Musk-cult mentality took over, and 
>>now they produce high-end vehicles for people with disposable income 
>>who don't mind laying it out for something most of the rest of us 
>>can't -or won't- afford.
>> >So you are saying that they should first produce a cheaper very low 
>>profit margin vehicle - so that they won't have enough cash to grow 
>>production at a high rate and be able to product a LOT more vehicles?
>> >___
>> >Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> >No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> >HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> >
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Loud boom.! Ford F150 bricked at Electrify AMERICA

2022-12-02 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Don't know anymore details, I'm in Oregon and I saw this happened in "Newport 
Oregon" which is directly on the Oregon Coast.   I think thesechargers are 
within spitting distance of the ocean.

Lot's of rain/salt/wind here especially .  Tough environment for outside 
electrical connections especially probably aluminum ones.   Also (and I speak 
fromexperience), URD (underground rated) has a much thicker heavier insulation 
on it, and it's difficult to get that insulation off WITHOUT 
accidentally"nicking" the aluminum wires which are much more brittle than 
copper and mechanically weakens them alot.   I'm fairly careful, but I've 
screwed upand seen a connection I thought was good turn out that half the 
strands broke later.

One thing that seemed to help was to use one of those little "close cutter pipe 
cutters" to take off the insulation.

underground Aluminum feeder wire is MUCH cheaper for high amperage connections 
so it's everywhere.  





-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
 

On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 11:03:56 AM PST, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
> I found this link yesterday (Sandy Munro's channel):
> https://youtu.be/tDp9PhPJhUI
> 
> It shows what can happen with a Level 2 installation and voices
> concerns for the need for better standards of home installations of
> EVSEs.

It's a good video showing what can go wrong. But it's worth noting that 
even these drastic failures did NOT cause a fire or shock hazard. The 
safety standards did what they are supposed to do.

The examples all appeared to use aluminum wire. It's much harder to make 
a reliable connection with it. Aluminum wire should only be used with 
connectors explicitly rated for it. Aluminum is also less conductive 
than copper, so you have to de-rate the devices accordingly.

Another aspect is the duty cycle. When UL rates something as "60 amps", 
that's the maximum current; not the average current rating. Electrical 
items should not be used continuously at more than 80% of its max rating.

Finally, there was no failure analysis as to whether these items were 
actually UL listed, and installed correctly in the first place. I've 
seen a lot of things that claim to be UL listed but are in fact cheap 
offshore junk with fake UL markings. And I've often found electrical 
installations with undersized wire or connectors, or where the screws 
were never fully tightened, etc. I think these are the real problems.

(It also irked me that they continuously referred to the EVSE 
connections as the "charger". But that's just me.)

Lee Hart

-- 
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

2022-11-25 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I know this will sound like sacrilege on EVDL, but does it really make sense to 
have battery powered Semitrailer trucks?    Isn't it kind of carryingthings a 
little too far?  

On a practical note, a lot of electricity is met on the grid with natural gas 
generators for demand as they can be spun up and down fairly easily toaccount 
for variable production and demand.

 Wouldn't it make more sense to just power the truck itself on Natural Gas and 
skip the power lines/grid/demand/chargestations...etc
It would also save on 10-20,000 lbs of batteries. not require big investments, 
much faster "recharge", and believe it or not, diesels can bet easily 
retrofitted to use Natural Gas.   (They just aspirate the air intake with nat 
gas and still use a small amount of diesel for the "spark".     It'sbeen done 
in other countries, but for some reason it's just ignored here in the US.

I was very interested in Natural Gas powered vehicles at one time.      Largely 
ignored in the US.
   There are a lot of good reasons (environmentally and economical) to consider 
them.    


 

On Thursday, November 24, 2022, 2:48:27 PM PST, Matthew Pitts via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 So you foresee a time in the US where the railroads handle the bulk of the 
cross-country shipping like they used to? Because that's pretty much the 
only way I can see EV semi trucks not being used for over the road 
operation. And if full day rate charging is cheaper than the cost of a tank 
of fuel (currently $5+ per Imperial Gallon in the US), I suspect most any 
shipping company would be fine with it.
Matthew Pitts
Get BlueMail  for Desktop
Bill Dube via EV wrote:
Fast charging during the day will be expensive for trucks and thus be 
unpopular.
The fast charger operator will take a cut, and the grid operator will 
charge peak rates for electricity.
Passenger EV's don't typically use fast chargers, they charge at more 
reasonable speeds and rates at home. You want to take a trip, then you are 
willing to pay extra to fast charge on the road. Fast charging is like 
eating in a restaurant. Most folks see it as a waste of money on a daily 
basis and eat at home for far less money.
Economics will shape the industry and will determine how and when trucks 
will charge. Unlike passenger cars, trucks are very price sensitive and 
will opt for the least expensive option. The available surplus grid 
capacity will set the price of electricity, and the trucking industry will 
find the most economical electricity price.
EV trucks will seldom be recharged on route at high electricity costs with 
the driver being paid to wait. It is not economic as the trucking company 
will lose money and it simply will not be done. (Or be done rarely.) EV 
trucks will no doubt be used for runs that are within their battery range.
Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast

2022-11-22 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
IMHO...
EV's are not long distance vehiclesthey are commuter vehicles.
PV provides lots of peak power during the day, zero at night

It would be a good idea to promote EV charging with PV during the day.
Where are commuter vehicles during the day?   Probably at work.
Seems that it would be common sense to promote slow EV charging at 
workduring the day.   Don't even need to have thePV at work, as there is 
probably PV somewhere close anyway.




 

On Monday, November 21, 2022, 7:51:08 AM PST, John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Which problem can be mitigated by having more distributed power. Like a 
Tesla Megapack at major truck stops.

On 11/21/2022 7:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Electric truck stops will need as much power as a small town
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-truck-stops-will-need-as-much-power-as-a-small-town/
>  
>
>
> ...
> If power upgrades don’t start soon, the transition to electric 
> vehicles — let alone electric trucks — will quickly be constrained by 
> a grid unprepared for the demand, warned Bart Franey, vice president 
> of clean energy development at National Grid.
>
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Re: [EVDL] solar panels over parking lots, duh

2022-11-16 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Underground?   Parking garages?  Trees???  Nearby Skyscrapers?
 
I like solar, but...I'm nervous of bureaucrats making arbitrary decisions.  
 


On Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 7:27:27 PM PST, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I’ve said that’s what we should do for years now! It makes perfect sense


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, November 16, 2022, 7:55 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

France to require all large parking lots to be covered by solar panels
https://grist.org/article/france-to-require-all-large-parking-lots-to-be-covered-by-solar-panels/

All large car parks in France will be covered by solar panels under new 
legislation approved as part of president Emmanuel Macron’s renewable 
energy drive.

...car parks with between 80 and 400 spaces have five years to comply 
with the measures, while operators of those with more than 400 will have 
just three years. At least half of the area of the larger sites must be 
covered by solar panels.

---

Peri


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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Re: [EVDL] BMS question

2021-10-07 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
For just a few batteries, I'd look at what the Radio Control guys use.    I 
think they have built in BMS and some are programmable.Being as you are only 
going to have 4 (for 12 volt trolling), I think you could get a complete 
solution cheap.    I think they use differentterminology like "4S" for 4 in 
series.  

Larry

p.s.   From experience.   Get a 50amp or above trolling motor.    Small ones 
are "okay" in light winds, but if you've got to 
buck a 20mph wind, you'd be much happier with a larger one when it's blowing.   

yes it's ev blasphemy but I'd also look at a metal pair of oarlocks and 
moderately decent 2-part oars. Always good to have several power sourcesif 
you get stuck in a shipping channel with no wind.  You don't have to do 
anything fancy with a sliding seat.  You can row standing up or sitting on a 
cooler or anything temporary.   It's a "LOT" better than a canoe paddle.    
You may find it's even better than thetrolling motor as you can save the 
electricity for lights and radio and gps. Expect only about 2 knots rowing.

 

On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 2:57:46 PM PDT, steve sawtelle via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  Thanks all for the advise and ideas.

I joined the Electricboats list - excellent resource! There is also a PlugBoats 
website/journal which looks good.

I borrowed our electronic load from work and will cycle a few batteries to see 
what I have. Good to know it may take a few cycles to see where they are at. 

I also found an excellent resource on Lithium batteries on boats:

https://nordkyndesign.com/category/marine-engineering/electrical/lithium-battery-systems/

Very thoughtful look at what it takes to make a good BMS. It's not easy. I'm 
hoping to do slow charge from a small solar panel and use the batteries weekly. 
It looks like it may be a bit hard to make that work really well. Well, part of 
why I do things like this is to learn

-steve

    On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 11:15:12 AM EDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I don't know anything about BMS's but Lithium Iron Phosphate cells can 
experience capacity fade even if they have good voltage. I had some cells that 
sat around for a year and a half and showed good voltage but when I cycles them 
they only had 45Ah out of 100Ah they started with. I thought I ruined them but 
I got back 100% of the capacity after the 5th cycle so just note you may need 
to cycle more than once.

    On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 8:11:11 AM CDT, Rod Hower via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  There are great resources for electric powered sail boats at 
electricbo...@groups.io https://groups.io/g/electricboats 
    On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 07:25:44 PM EDT, steve sawtelle via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I guess this may qualify as an old-school question now.

About 12 years ago I built an electric motorcycle. I actually had it up and 
running, but other things got in the way and I am abandoning the project.  The 
rolling chassis will get back it's ICE and I need to find a home for the 7" Jim 
Husted motor and the controls. I have a new endeavor now - a small cruising 
sailboat (CLC Pocketship). I'm thinking of using a trolling motor as the backup 
to the sails and I hope to repurpose some of my 100 A-H Thundersky batteries 
for power. My batteries have been sitting for 10 years but still are at around 
3.25V. I need to cycle them to see if they are still viable of course. If they 
are, what BMS is recommended for them now? I did a  bit of searching but didn't 
see much.

-steve
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Re: [EVDL] Will this gizmo let my EV conversion talk to a J-1772

2021-09-04 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Yes.but RV's can have a weird problem.    When operating in stand alone 
mode (i.e. self supported and not connected to the grid)  they often act like a 
house in that the inverter/generator makes its own 120|240 and therefore the 
ground and neutral are often bonded together (at one place...in the RV)...and 
connected to the frame.    This means neutral and ground are connected 
together.at one placeprobably the frame    So it's just like a house.

It makes sense in. stand-alone mode (i.e. NOT connected to external power) and 
works just like a house in that if RV internal GFI (in the RV) senses current 
going to "ground" (i.e. frame) it trips the internal GFI   or breaker 

  So if your RV dryer connects the neutral or hot to the RV dryer metal box 
which is "grounded" , then internal RV GFI trips. and you kept from being 
electrocuted.   The ground effectively acts like a neutral to provide a path to 
sink the current and blow a breaker (or GFI).    

Keep in mind that normal NON GFI  breakers also expect a big enough ground wire 
even though in theory no current should pass through groundBUT if it 
does,then the ground wire must be big enough to handle enough current to blow 
the breaker...   If you use a 1 Mohm resistor for ground, then the breaker will
never get 20 amps and it'll never blow, but the case can still be 120v

The problem is when you connect the RV to external power because NOW the RV 
neutral-ground bonding creates a path to ground.   So if you power the RV via
an external GFI, some of the current may come back through the external ground 
because now you effectively have 2 paths back to the bonding point of the 
house.      It's as if you had a huge appliance where neutral and ground were 
connected together. Not good.

it's bad.   In fact I think most RV's will pop an external GFI.  (at least the 
ones I've seen).    Not good.

I suppose the right answer is to have something inside the RV that switches 
between bonding and not-bonding depending whether you are stand alone or
not stand alone.

A similar problem can happen if you try to give temporary emergency power to 
your neighbor via an extension cord.

I'm not condoning it, but unfortunately it's pretty common situation that most 
people seem blissfully unaware.


On Saturday, September 4, 2021, 3:03:13 PM PDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote: 

> I thought you could mix ground with neutral?

Ground and neutral are bonded together at only one point in your house.  
Usually that's at the main panel or main disconnect.  From that point on, 
ground and neutral are kept totally separate.  

You can't use the equipment ground as a substitute for neutral.  It creates 
a potentially hazardous situation and will trip a GFI, including the one in 
an EVSE.  To charge at 120v, you'll need an appropriately sized transformer. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-22 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Bill Dube ->  Do you mean the solvent is flammable?  UggThat could be a big 
problem.   Do you know what is used?   

Lee Hart ->  I'm sure that would add to the difficulty, but still I would 
think anything that makes the battery "less" of a batteryand more of a chunk of 
plastic and foil is a good thing even if it doesn't work perfectly.


Just blue-sky'ingwhat if either the solvent or battery separator could 
change state?   For example, for the sake of discussion, 
suppose the separator "melted" at a low enough temp to change from porous to 
relatively nonporous?  Or perhaps even somethingcould "poison" the electrolyte 
in a heat sensitive thing that might release some other salt.



   On Monday, June 22, 2020, 9:58:33 AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> This would work for lead acid, where the electrolyte is water based, but
> li-ion cells have an organic solvent based electrolyte.

An additional problem is that the electrolyte is mostly held in the 
separators between the plates. Depending on the specific type of 
battery, little or none of it would flow out if you made a hole in the 
bottom.

Lee Hart

-- 
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
  - something to do
  - something to look forward to
  - someone to love
  - someone to take good care of
  - and misbehave, just a little
  --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-21 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I had an idea once.   Dump the electrolyte in a fire.   That stops the battery 
reaction and stops the fire.   I'd bet you could make a 
heat sensitive relief valve (at the bottom) and as the battery heats up, it 
would dump the electrolyte (which is getting hot anyway and would eitherpour 
via gravity or perhaps boil out the relief valve). It would make a mess...but I 
bet it would work.


-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
 

On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 4:15:34 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide 
(ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even 
exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.

What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery 
pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.
Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)

Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
> Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
> Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
> blanket ...
> https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] LRR Tires: Research tips?

2020-06-19 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Hmmm...I'm not a car guy, but isn't the point of the large diameter wheels for 
low profile tires for high speed cornering?  

 In a racing car, as you go around the corner, the sidewalls flex because of 
the centrifugal force that they must transport to the car
 By using low profile tires and making the wheels larger, you keep the same 
diameter, but the shorter sidewall makes the overall flex, less.
I thought that was the original point for racing tires anyway.

-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
 

On Thursday, June 18, 2020, 8:50:15 AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> Oversize wheels are a styling gimmick. Once the wheels are big enough to 
> clear the brakes, making them larger has no
> practical value that I can see.  They only add unsprung mass and inertia.
> They decrease the vehicle's efficiency, and possibly its handling and
> comfort, for no real return.
>
> Most of the fancy wheels are worse in their aerodynamic qualities, too, and
> more expensive to replace if they're damaged.

 From a purely functional standpoint, larger wheels do indeed increase 
losses. They are heavier, and have more wind resistance. Remember that 
the top of a tire is moving forward at *twice* the speed of the car 
itself, which greatly magnifies the effect of its aerodynamic drag.

Larger tires can reduce rolling resistance (all other things being 
equal); but that's normally only important at low speeds. The trouble 
is, other things are *not* equal; larger tires tend to use wider tread 
and stiffer sidewalls, which increase the othe losses.

I remember reading about the arguments Paul MacReady had with the GM 
styists about the EV-1. He wanted small skinny tires for efficiency; 
they wanted big "macho" tires. They wound up having Michelin develop a 
special tire.

I also talked to Bob McKee (the famous race car designer). When he 
designed his Sundancer (famous for a 150 mph range and 70 mph top speed 
on just twelve 6v golf cart batteries), he tested tires to find the 
optimum size. He found that a *small* diameter tire had the best 
compromise between efficiency and handling (he paid no attention at all 
to appearance).

I think the main reasons for large wide tires are, a) styling (looks 
like a race car), b) sell for higher prices (more profit), c), improved 
handling on smooth dry roads (like a racetrack).

Lee Hart

-- 
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
  - something to do
  - something to look forward to
  - someone to love
  - someone to take good care of
  - and misbehave, just a little
  --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solectria Force - Lithium Batteries

2020-05-14 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I've got 48 100ah batteries,  I believe 16 in front, 32 in back.

   On Thursday, May 14, 2020, 12:39:49 AM PDT, Billy Caruso via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Hey folks -

Does anyone drive a 1990's Solectria Force? If so - what is your battery
setup. I'm looking at bringing one back to life - it currently has 49 x
3.2v 40ah LiFePo CALB bad cells. All the batteries fit in the front box.
Hoping to see if anyone else has any existing setups or suggestions.

Best,
Billy

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Re: [EVDL] Communicating over "mains" (Was: Minibms?)

2020-04-29 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Well, perhaps I'm wrong.   I suppose no one can see the future.   

But riddle me this :-).   Suppose you run a single wire out to 150 different 
batteries andyou have a good system.   Suppose ONE of those 300 different 
connections goes bad...
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to .even if everything was turned off, to 
have an alternatemethod of communicationthat didn't cost anything extra 
except a little software to twiddlethe balancing shunt...that could be used in 
a quiescent system to troubleshoot those 300 different connections?so you 
at least knew where to start taking stuff apart?

Perhaps I'm grasping at straws here, but I even see this stupid idea as useful.

 
 > From: Lee Hart 
> 
> All these problems are solvable if you throw enough engineering and 
> money at them. But it's not goiong to lead to a cheap simple system.
> 
> That's why everyone avoids using the propulsion wiring itself to carry 
> data. It's far cheaper and more reliable to run separate wires for data.

I agree there doesn't seem to be much practical advantage to re-using the 
traction power lines.

As a minimum, you'd need a filter at the controller. Caps are cheap, but a 500A 
choke is going to cost more than the #18 (or smaller) wire you'd have to run if 
you use dedicated wire. A huge ferrite bead might be enough for VHF and up.

That's why the whole "wideband over power line" never got out of the starting 
chute. You'd need a high-frequency bridge over every transformer in the system. 
I can see ten of them out my window — in a rural, low-density area!

I did play with the X-11 home power control protocol some decades ago, and 
built a Heathkit powerline-carrier intercom as a kid. But the grid wideband 
response is tremendously difficult to characterize, which I'd expect the 
traction bus to be, too. 

I've seen TDR graphs of different power line situations at different 
frequencies — it is totally unpredictable what characteristic impedance you can 
count on! The best scheme would probably be diversity spread spectrum, which 
ain't cheap.

 We need an energy policy that encourages consumption. -- George W. Bush 
 
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op  

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 90, Issue 36

2020-04-28 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Isn't  "Wide Band Noise" what RF guys overcome every day?   The reason you tune 
a radio is to ignore the 50 million otherchannels and the 
sun/jupiter/everyelectronicdevice known to man and concentrate on your own..
I can use my cell phone in my EV just fine.   If noise was really 
insurmountable, then I wouldn't be able to do that.

Seems to me that with enough selectivity over enough time, you can ignore every 
bit of noise known to man.
As I said the Ham guys can pick out signal in signal to noise ratios of -120db. 
 That's 12 orders of magnitude and they can detecta walkie/talkie on the 
other side of the globe.   It's amazing.   Sure it's only a few bits/min, but 
the point is that it IS doable.

It requires a different mindset than just straight digital manipulation.   You 
accept error rates and deal with them using math.



   On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 9:58:47 PM PDT, Offgrid Systems via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Yeah I'm gonna agree with Lee here. I've been thinking about this for 
years also, going as far as testing some ac powerline comm chips adapted 
to DC power busses. I found it's impossible with all the noise coming 
from the drive on an EV.  But Lee, you don't even need a spectrum 
analyser, just fire up your EV drive train, looking at any of the phases 
with a oscilloscope. It's wide band noise, and the motor control is 
modulating to operate the motor, but with sinewave drives, or even the 
old PWM drives, there is noise during the entire cycle, and the only way 
you get a quiet time is if you actually shut off and short the motor for 
a brief period. But if you do that there will be high peak currents that 
will not be good for the efficiency of the drive. If reliability is the 
key, you will not want to use the DC busses, unless it's a low noise 
application, and you can control and build all of the power devices, 
like maybe a powerwall with a pure sinewave inverter, and you make the 
charger (solar charge controller) and the inverter. But for motor 
control, it's a difficult problem to solve.

Tim Economu

On 4/28/2020 6:48 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> It sounds easy; but put a spectrum analyzer on your battery leads to see
> what's*really*  there. I think you'd be shocked at the noise level.
>
>> There are a few clever tricks you can employ. During charging, you can
>> have the charger pause for a regular "moment of silence" in which the
>> BMS can communicate quickly and in the clear without having to "shout"
>> over the charger PWM. Perhaps the same thing could occur to a lesser
>> extent with the inverter.
> Same as above. Are you going to design a special charger that must be
> used with your BMS?
>
> There are lots of solutions that work*some*  of the time. There are a
> few that work*most*  of the time. But it gets damnably difficult to find
> schemes that work*all*  of the time.
>
> The problem is that a BMS is a safety system that you want to work*all*  
> of the time.
>
> Lee Hart

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Re: [EVDL] Communicating over "mains" (Was: Minibms?)

2020-04-28 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
So by SAFETY system, what do you want to do?   I guess I only see two things
A.   Stop the Car.B.   Stop the Charger.
Suppose you queried 1 time per second.  Suppose you got 3600 good readings then 
ONE bad one (or failed to get one), then started getting good ones again, would 
you really want to
A.  Stop the car
B.  Start and stop the charger?
I would think that you could tolerate some error rate with a little bit of 
software intelligence such as
IF last readings were near limits then execute safety stop
IF last reading was well within tolerance, ignoreIF Failed to get reading for N 
consecutive seconds the execute safety stop
Would this really be so unreasonable or unsafe?



On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 9:10:40 PM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> The BMS for each cell would normally be quiet and only send something when
> prompted by a central BMS component.

I think it is important to consider just what you want a BMS to do.

- Is it just there to provide feedback on what each cell is doing?
    (battery MONITORING system)
- Is it there to actively balance cells?
    (battery BALANCING system)
- Is it a safety system, there to prevent damage and fires?
    (battery SAFETY system)

These are three very different devices, with completely different design 
requirements.

When you talk about systems with a computer on every cell, and CAN bus 
networking with TCP/IP, you're talking about a Monitoring system. It's 
supposed to provide accurate real-time data on things like cell 
voltages, currents, and temperatures. It probably needs a fancy display 
(blinkinlights), and data logging (pretty charts and graphs).

Such a system is necessarily complicated, with correspondingly high cost 
and low reliability. It will need hundreds, perhaps thousands of parts, 
and so have many failure modes. Given the heavy dependence on software, 
it will be nearly impossible to predict what happens when it fails.

And, it's going to be the exact opposite of a safety system.

Lee Hart
-- 
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
    - something to do
    - something to look forward to
    - someone to love
    - someone to take good care of
    - and misbehave, just a little
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Communicating over "mains" (Was: Minibms?)

2020-04-28 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Let me play devils advocate.    If it was so hard, then why does my cell 
phone/radio/satellite work?   They pickup microvolts out of the air and work 
pretty well.   I'm communicating my email to a tower 10 miles away.  I'm doing 
itwith 2 watts!   That's pretty amazing.

the bypass resistor can do 0.5-1 amp.  That's a non trivial signal to look for. 
 Now put it at a particular freq and give itenough cycles and look for it with 
an FFT in software and I'd guess it's going to be detectable.   Now addCRC for 
errors and viola.    

And if occasionally 1 out of 10 times you get a bad reading...who cares.  
It's a BMS.   It's not going to explode.Just make some annoying beep.   I can 
live with that.
The advantage is no wires.  No fire hazard.  Decent stats on the battery.
I'd say the wins outweigh the disadvantages.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.   Things change relatively slow 
in the battery world and a fewbad readings are probably acceptable.   In a 
master/slave system if the BMS doesn't respond to a query, thentreat it as a t  
fault.   Turn off the charger, or let the user know by beeping or blinking or 
something.  

 I think that the proof will be in someone doing it.   Perhaps I'm opotomistic, 
but  I have confidence that it would work.


   On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 6:48:38 PM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> I have thought about doing this for perhaps 20 years. It may well be
> possible to communicate via the traction conductors. It is probably
> worth the effort to do so because it would allow you to incorporate the
> BMS in the cell. Sealing the BMS inside each cell could be very useful,
> especially from a warranty/liability angle. The cell manufacturer would
> love to have a log of the SOC history of the cell.

It is certainly possible. The problem is whether it is practical.

If you are an automaker, with control over every aspect of the vehicle, 
the situation may be manageable. You can pick a part of the RF spectrum 
for your BMS communications where you know (or create) a "hole" in the 
noise from the other parts of the vehicle.

You can also route your wiring so as not to create any "dead spots". 
When you don't have a controlled impedance (known capacitance and 
inductance in the wiring), RF systems will have peaks and nulls that can 
prevent certain locations from communicating, where moving it a foot 
down the wire either way works.

But I think the situation is nearly hopeless in an open-source hobby EV. 
It would boil down to trial and error, where the installer doesn't know 
what noise the pieces are producing, and can't do anything to change 
them, and can't change the RF spectrum that the BMS is trying to use.

That's why providing a separate communication channel is almost 
universal. It might be wired, or optical, or RF (not relying on the 
traction wiring to carry the signal). You have a far better chance of it 
working.

> Communicating _to_ the BMS is simple. You have two VERY large
> transmitters, the charger and the inverter. Simply frequency modulate
> the pwm of the inverter and/or the charger and put an FM detector in
> each BMS on the cell level. You turn the "noise" source into the
> communication transmitter. Done.

That works if you designed the charger and inverter and BMS specifically 
to work together to do this.

> Communication _from_ the cells is not quite as simple, but doable. Use
> the by-pass circuit to talk to the outside world. Put a capacitor in
> parallel with the by-pass resistor so that when you switch on the
> resistor, you get a spike.

Perhaps; but the batteries themselves still have a huge equivalent 
capacitance. The charger and controller are also likely to have huge 
low-ESR filter capacitors across them, which try to short out any RF 
signals present.

It sounds easy; but put a spectrum analyzer on your battery leads to see 
what's *really* there. I think you'd be shocked at the noise level.

> There are a few clever tricks you can employ. During charging, you can
> have the charger pause for a regular "moment of silence" in which the
> BMS can communicate quickly and in the clear without having to "shout"
> over the charger PWM. Perhaps the same thing could occur to a lesser
> extent with the inverter.

Same as above. Are you going to design a special charger that must be 
used with your BMS?

There are lots of solutions that work *some* of the time. There are a 
few that work *most* of the time. But it gets damnably difficult to find 
schemes that work *all* of the time.

The problem is that a BMS is a safety system that you want to work *all* 
of the time.

Lee Hart

-- 
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
    - something to do
    - something to look forward to
    - someone to love
    - someone to take good care of
    - and misbehave, just a little
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___

Re: [EVDL] Communicating over "mains" (Was: Minibms?)

2020-04-28 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Simple idea  as a start of discussion assuming an AVR on the BMS and a 
cap/comparator circuit to detect and 
amplify comm signal

Assumes each BMS has an "uniq NODE".

Monitor COM voltages at F1 hz.  Store.  
Analyze stored data for master signal  at F2 hz.   Decode and sync local clock 
to master clock.   

IF we have data to report, wait for TimeSlot for NODE, then send.   use use 
bypass resistor to send square wave at F3 hz  cycles, 


Messages would be sent using something like manchester coding and messages 
could be stretched across multiple time slots.
Messages would use something like CRC to guarantee validity.




   On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 4:54:11 PM PDT, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Awesome. 

I like the idea of the transmitter in the charger, but it would also be cool to 
make it an add-on with an existing charger.   
 I would think you would want the frequency to be well off the freq of the 
charger switchers.   Any ideas on that?
Have any idea what the small signal impedance vs frequency is for lifepo4 100ah 
batteries?   I would think that batterieshave high impedance at high freq 
regardless of SOC.   Chemistry just doesn't happen that fast.

I think a possibility would be to have a synchronizing pulse sent from the 
"master" and use time slots for each bms slave 
to respond.  I would think that making the BMS as a slave saves energy too.   
It doesn't waste energy talking unless ithas too.



  On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 4:38:16 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I have thought about doing this for perhaps 20 years. It may well be 
possible to communicate via the traction conductors. It is probably 
worth the effort to do so because it would allow you to incorporate the 
BMS in the cell. Sealing the BMS inside each cell could be very useful, 
especially from a warranty/liability angle. The cell manufacturer would 
love to have a log of the SOC history of the cell.

Communicating _to_ the BMS is simple. You have two VERY large 
transmitters, the charger and the inverter. Simply frequency modulate 
the pwm of the inverter and/or the charger and put an FM detector in 
each BMS on the cell level. You turn the "noise" source into the 
communication transmitter. Done.

Communication _from_ the cells is not quite as simple, but doable. Use 
the by-pass circuit to talk to the outside world. Put a capacitor in 
parallel with the by-pass resistor so that when you switch on the 
resistor, you get a spike. Again, you can transmit via FM using "spikes" 
generated by switching the by-pass on and off briefly.

There are a few clever tricks you can employ. During charging, you can 
have the charger pause for a regular "moment of silence" in which the 
BMS can communicate quickly and in the clear without having to "shout" 
over the charger PWM. Perhaps the same thing could occur to a lesser 
extent with the inverter.

Also, cells that are in a high SOC or low SOC have a high impedance, 
which would tend to make the BMS signal "louder". Since this is the most 
critical time for BMS communication, this helps quite a bit. During 
these times they can "scream" to the inverter to stop for a moment so 
they can give details about the problem.

Just a thought

     Bill D.

On 4/29/2020 9:35 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
>> Because there are no "mains" in a vehicle.???
> Is it really "That" Noisy?   I suspect it is very doable, it's just that no 
> one has done it yet.The trick is probably using signal processing to get rid 
> of the noise and doing extremelylow bit rates, which is fine for a BMS.    
> Ham radio guys can send stuff over the entire earthon 10 watts using 
> techniques like jt65.   I expect they can deal with a little noise.   it's 
> justnot going to be trivial, but it would be doable.
>
> IMHO the main use for the BMS is in charging anyway.
>
>    On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 2:12:26 PM PDT, Lee Hart 
> wrote:
>  
>  Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
>> Anyone know anything about data over powerlines?  Why can't the BMS
>> communicate over the mains?
> Because there are no "mains" in a vehicle.
>
> That said, it is possible to communicate via the DC power cables already
> connected to each cell. But this is an extremely noisy environment. It
> would require substantial filtering and protection to keep driving
> currents from trashing data transfers. Some chargers are also extremely
> noisy, and could block data transfers while charging.
>
> Lee


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Re: [EVDL] Communicating over "mains" (Was: Minibms?)

2020-04-28 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Awesome. 

I like the idea of the transmitter in the charger, but it would also be cool to 
make it an add-on with an existing charger.   
 I would think you would want the frequency to be well off the freq of the 
charger switchers.   Any ideas on that?
Have any idea what the small signal impedance vs frequency is for lifepo4 100ah 
batteries?   I would think that batterieshave high impedance at high freq 
regardless of SOC.   Chemistry just doesn't happen that fast.

I think a possibility would be to have a synchronizing pulse sent from the 
"master" and use time slots for each bms slave 
to respond.  I would think that making the BMS as a slave saves energy too.   
It doesn't waste energy talking unless ithas too.



   On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 4:38:16 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I have thought about doing this for perhaps 20 years. It may well be 
possible to communicate via the traction conductors. It is probably 
worth the effort to do so because it would allow you to incorporate the 
BMS in the cell. Sealing the BMS inside each cell could be very useful, 
especially from a warranty/liability angle. The cell manufacturer would 
love to have a log of the SOC history of the cell.

Communicating _to_ the BMS is simple. You have two VERY large 
transmitters, the charger and the inverter. Simply frequency modulate 
the pwm of the inverter and/or the charger and put an FM detector in 
each BMS on the cell level. You turn the "noise" source into the 
communication transmitter. Done.

Communication _from_ the cells is not quite as simple, but doable. Use 
the by-pass circuit to talk to the outside world. Put a capacitor in 
parallel with the by-pass resistor so that when you switch on the 
resistor, you get a spike. Again, you can transmit via FM using "spikes" 
generated by switching the by-pass on and off briefly.

There are a few clever tricks you can employ. During charging, you can 
have the charger pause for a regular "moment of silence" in which the 
BMS can communicate quickly and in the clear without having to "shout" 
over the charger PWM. Perhaps the same thing could occur to a lesser 
extent with the inverter.

Also, cells that are in a high SOC or low SOC have a high impedance, 
which would tend to make the BMS signal "louder". Since this is the most 
critical time for BMS communication, this helps quite a bit. During 
these times they can "scream" to the inverter to stop for a moment so 
they can give details about the problem.

Just a thought

     Bill D.

On 4/29/2020 9:35 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
>> Because there are no "mains" in a vehicle.???
> Is it really "That" Noisy?   I suspect it is very doable, it's just that no 
> one has done it yet.The trick is probably using signal processing to get rid 
> of the noise and doing extremelylow bit rates, which is fine for a BMS.    
> Ham radio guys can send stuff over the entire earthon 10 watts using 
> techniques like jt65.   I expect they can deal with a little noise.   it's 
> justnot going to be trivial, but it would be doable.
>
> IMHO the main use for the BMS is in charging anyway.
>
>    On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 2:12:26 PM PDT, Lee Hart 
> wrote:
>  
>  Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
>> Anyone know anything about data over powerlines?  Why can't the BMS
>> communicate over the mains?
> Because there are no "mains" in a vehicle.
>
> That said, it is possible to communicate via the DC power cables already
> connected to each cell. But this is an extremely noisy environment. It
> would require substantial filtering and protection to keep driving
> currents from trashing data transfers. Some chargers are also extremely
> noisy, and could block data transfers while charging.
>
> Lee


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Re: [EVDL] Minibms?

2020-04-28 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
> Because there are no "mains" in a vehicle.???

Is it really "That" Noisy?   I suspect it is very doable, it's just that no one 
has done it yet.The trick is probably using signal processing to get rid of the 
noise and doing extremelylow bit rates, which is fine for a BMS.    Ham radio 
guys can send stuff over the entire earthon 10 watts using techniques like 
jt65.   I expect they can deal with a little noise.   it's justnot going to be 
trivial, but it would be doable.    

IMHO the main use for the BMS is in charging anyway.   

   On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 2:12:26 PM PDT, Lee Hart 
 wrote:  
 
 Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
> Anyone know anything about data over powerlines?  Why can't the BMS
> communicate over the mains?

Because there are no "mains" in a vehicle.

That said, it is possible to communicate via the DC power cables already 
connected to each cell. But this is an extremely noisy environment. It 
would require substantial filtering and protection to keep driving 
currents from trashing data transfers. Some chargers are also extremely 
noisy, and could block data transfers while charging.

Lee
-- 
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
    - something to do
    - something to look forward to
    - someone to love
    - someone to take good care of
    - and misbehave, just a little
--
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Re: [EVDL] Minibms?

2020-04-28 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

Anyone know anything about data over powerlines?   Why can't the BMS 
communicate over the mains?   
 

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020, 1:55:18 PM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
> My fantasy BMS would be to have the cell modules communicate with the
> downstream electronics by way of fiber optic cable. Think of it, no
> galvanic coupling, complete lack of magnetic induction pickup (no
> shielding needed), wideband data path, low/no RF generation.

I've done a simple version of this. *Very* simple! :-)

My zener-lamp regulators are nothing but a zener diode and tungsten 
light bulb. They are chosen not to conduct until the battery voltage 
goes above the "fully charged" voltage. Then the zener conducts, and the 
lamp lights to load down the charger and provide a visual indication.

But there is no light in a battery box. A light sensor anywhere in the 
box won't see light until some regulator starts to conduct. So, I used a 
cheap "night light" as my sensor. It is on when the box is dark, holding 
a relay on to enable the charger. It turns off when it sees light; the 
relay drops, and the charger switches to off or float.

Now, this is probably *too* simple for an expensive lithium pack. I used 
it on lead-acids, which are a lot more forgiving. But it does make the 
point that KISS designs can be a heck of a lot simpler and cheaper than 
the usual high-tech massive-overkill solutions.

Lee Hart

-- 
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
    - something to do
    - something to look forward to
    - someone to love
    - someone to take good care of
    - and misbehave, just a little
--
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Re: [EVDL] Minibms?

2020-04-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I think I understand the history.    I need to have a few for myself,  (I'd 
like around 20) but beyond that 
It seems ultimately we should make a PCB gerber file and opensource it for v2?  
Seems a reasonable start.    

Mr Sharkey:   Are you in Oregon?   I live in Monroe Oregon.

On Monday, April 27, 2020, 4:35:27 PM PDT, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 The MiniBMS system was originally started as an open source project 
by users of the DIY Electric Car forum. It was mostly spearheaded by 
Dimitri, with input from several interested users. The first version 
as intended to be able to used with all the cell modules on one PCB, 
with voltage sense wiring going to each cell. It could also be cut 
into individual PCBs and cell-mounted. There are vestigial PCB traces 
for the opto interconnection even on the v.2 cell modules from this 
design (I cut those traces off individual boards, as they add to the 
creepage problem). A 4x4/16 cell PCB was standard, but other 
configurations were possible.

After the basic system was designed by the group, and Dimitri had a 
few runs of v.1 and then v.2 boards printed and stuffed, he decided 
that the project was no longer open source, and took it private, much 
to the dissatisfaction of the other participants. It wasn't a lot 
after that the he sold the intellectual property rights and name to 
EVPower, who further refined the design and packaging.

I agree that we have a chance to reintroduce a good portion of these 
available cell modules to the EV community for those who are 
interested. How shall we procede?

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Re: [EVDL] Minibms?

2020-04-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Hi Willie.   I think we are serious about those boards.   

How do we pay you?   Are they still in working order?   

 

On Monday, April 27, 2020, 12:52:49 PM PDT, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

On 4/27/20 2:25 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

> I'd be glad to relate any info that helps you get these working, or if 
> you decide not to repair them, I'd be interesting in purchasing the dead 
> ones as possible spares for my EV. I have schematics for the cell and 
> head boards, etc.

Send me your shipping address and I will send you a bunch.  Maybe around 
200.  You may then decide if they are worth anything.

Do you want any Australian "EVPower" cell modules?  They were MUCH more 
reliable but apparently no longer available.  Nicely potted up. They 
have flat copper cell connections rather than "fly wires".

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Re: [EVDL] Minibms?

2020-04-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I'd love to get some.   I have a use for 20 cell boards and perhaps a head 
board.lawrence_winiarski    at  yankee alpha hotel oscar oscar dot charlie 
oscar mike


On Monday, April 27, 2020, 1:16:51 PM PDT, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I sense a beautiful online relationship in the making here. 
Unfortunately, I'm using the Nabble web archive to read messages, 
which means I can't see your contact information (or even your name, 
since Nabble bollixed up the interface a few years ago).

Here's a little email address puzzle to confound the spambots, I'm 
sure that ordinary humans are clever enough to figure it out:

Mary
Romeo
Seirra
Hotel
Alpha
Romeo
Kilo
Echo
Yankee
@ (at)
Juliet
Uniform
November
Oscar
. (dot)
Charlie
Oscar
Mary

If these boards hold any promise for continued use, perhaps repairing 
them would make a good social distancing cottage industry for the 
duration of the pandemic. Distributing the operational boards back to 
the EV community for a modest cost would be my only payback aside 
from the security of having some spares on hand (I lose a cell board 
once or twice a year, and having something on the shelf to bolt-on 
instead of inheriting an instant repair project would be mighty nice).

The Australian modules were the result of Dimitri selling off his 
business "Clean Power Auto" and all the IP to the MiniBMS product. 
The new owners recognized some of the shortcomings, and made 
corrections, the most significant of which was potting the cell 
modules in epoxy to eliminate the voltage creep and corrosion 
problems. Repairable? No idea, would need to hack into a few and see 
what's left over.

Oh, and to the original poster, I can direct you to a schematic of my 
simple test jig, which can help diagnose and proof cell modules, very 
helpful if you have even a couple to check out.

 > Send me your shipping address and I will send you a bunch.  Maybe around
 > 200.  You may then decide if they are worth anything.

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Re: [EVDL] Minibms?

2020-04-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Funny.    That's exactly what went wrong.    I have a few optorelays in my ebay 
cart as we speak.
Yes, I'll repair,  extend the same offer to you if you get decide to get rid of 
yours. :-)
I've got the old schematic for v.2 which seems to be about right.   Don't know 
anything about v3 or what the differences are.
I've never done anything with surface mount, but I thought perhaps this might 
be a good project to do something useful and learn on.


On Monday, April 27, 2020, 12:26:37 PM PDT, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Depending on the version (and condition) of the boards, they are 
repairable. The most common failure is of the optical relay that 
isolates the cell module from the controller head. It's not a 
particularly expensive part, and although it's surface mount (SMD), 
it has only four leads, and can be replaced using common soldering tools.

I had to rebuild nine of the v.2 Mini BMS boards that I purchased 
with the used Thundersky cells that are in my car now. There were a 
variety of failures, many of which were caused by corrosion and 
creepage between the cell/pack potential and automotive 12 volt 
battery connections. Some through cleaning, PCB trace repairs and 
half a dozen of the optical relays all is operational again. I built 
a test jig to proof each board and gather LVD, HVD, balancing voltage 
and current, etc.

I'd be glad to relate any info that helps you get these working, or 
if you decide not to repair them, I'd be interesting in purchasing 
the dead ones as possible spares for my EV. I have schematics for the 
cell and head boards, etc.

Version 3 boards use an ATTiny microprocessor (AVR), and might be 
repairable, but if the processor needs replacement, that's going to 
be a sticking point without the source code for the chipset.



 > Hi.  I had a few minibms boards quit working and I was wondering if
 > anyone had made a dropin alternative or had some that they might
 > want to sell.

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[EVDL] Minibms?

2020-04-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Hi.   I had a few minibms boards quit working and I was wondering if anyone had 
made a dropin alternative or had some that they might want to sell.


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Re: [EVDL] custom battery

2020-04-13 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Isn't 60c or 100C common in Radio Control stuff now? Lots of solutions 
there.

On Monday, April 13, 2020, 9:51:43 PM PDT, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Nominally 240. But it really can be anything and I can convert it to 
what I need.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Alan Arrison via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Alan Arrison" 
Sent: 13-Apr-20 9:48:53 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] custom battery

>That sounds like almost super-capacitor territory. What voltage is needed?
>
>Designing and implementing a BMS is something even EE's have trouble with.
>
>However, if the voltage is low enough, it makes it much easier.
>
>Al
>
>On 4/14/2020 12:33 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>I need a battery with about 150Wh and a discharge rate of 8kW for up to a 
>>minute or so. I've spent a few hours searching and there doesn't seem to be 
>>anything on the market that fits this. There are, of course, higher capacity 
>>batteries that can deliver 8kW, but that's not what I'm after.
>>
>>This isn't for an EV, so I suppose this is somewhat off topic, although BMSs 
>>are a relevant topic to EVs. It's for a home appliance that I'm prototyping.
>>
>>I'm pretty sure I can find affordable cells that I can put together to do 
>>this, but then I'm stuck with a custom BMS. I suspect that's the route I'm 
>>going to have to take. So, let's talk about that.
>>
>>Each cell (or group of parallel cells) needs a monitoring circuit (is there a 
>>name for this?). And theses monitors need to communicate with a BMS. I'm less 
>>concerned about designing the BMS as I think I can use an arduino and do it 
>>in software. The arduino can control the charger, too. I can revisit this 
>>later. But for the monitors, I need to get it right. Since the battery will 
>>be in the house, it cannot cause a fire. Ever. Of course, I will have over 
>>temperature sensors which shut off the charger and shut off the load.
>>
>>Here's what I think each monitor's role is, based on what I've read on EVDL 
>>over the years and some common sense :)
>>- cell over voltage
>>- cell under voltage
>>- cell over current
>>- cell temperature
>>In all of the above the circuit should shunt the cell.
>>In addition, the monitor should constantly report the cell voltage, current, 
>>and temp to the BMS.
>>
>>If there's something reliable I can buy, at a reasonable price, that's my 
>>first choice. Otherwise, I guess it's getting someone to help design and 
>>fabricate these.
>>
>>I would be grateful for your suggestions.
>>
>>Peri
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

2018-10-19 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Well if the Idea of Homicidal, Petroleum producers, having control of the EV 
industry doesn't bother you
How do you feel about the Tobacco Institute taking over Cancer Research?



  From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org"  
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes 
 Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 2:19 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?
   
The fact that Bonnie and Clyde and other criminals of the 30's liked a Ford or 
Chevy didn't hurt those companies.  The mafia still likes Suburbans.  It's 
because of how well the car meets their needs That they buy stock or use the 
product shouldn't matter.  Lawrence Rhodes..  

  
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

2018-10-18 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Yeah it was 5%.and they were allegedly saying that they could buy a whole 
bunch more... enough to make Tesla private.
From only a few weeks agohere's some Saudi Info.
https://www.tesla.com/BLOG/update-taking-tesla-private


All I was saying is I think it was a damn good thing for  Tesla that it never 
went anywhere.


  From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: EVDL Administrator 
 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 2:29 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?
   
On 18 Oct 2018 at 19:13, robert winfield via EV wrote:

>  seriously?sell to Saudi'snope wrong wrong wrong you aredidnt happen

Not entirely right, but not entirely wrong either.

The Saudi wealth fund bought Tesla stock. Now it's investing in Lucid, a 
Tesla competitor

Sep 18, 2018

"Earlier this year, the Saudi fund bought Tesla shares on the open market 
totaling between 3% and 5% of the company, the Financial Times has reported. 
In August, when Elon Musk flirted briefly with the idea of taking Tesla 
private, he identified the Saudi fund, along with Volkswagen, as funding 
sources."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-lucid-saudi-investment-20180918-
story.html

https://v.gd/u23NAX

Also:

Saudi Fund in Talks to Invest in Tesla Buyout Deal

August 12, 2018

"The Saudi Kingdom´s Public Investment Fund is working to be part of any 
investor pool that emerges to take Tesla private, people with knowledge of 
the fund´s plans told Bloomberg News on Sunday. The fund, which recently 
built a stake just shy of 5 percent, is exploring how it can be involved, 
the people said on condition of anonymity."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-12/saudi-fund-is-said-to-be-
in-talks-to-invest-in-tesla-buyout-deal

https://v.gd/27afU0

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

2018-10-18 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

Musk was just last month trying to sell it to the Saudi's..in a deal that 
allegedly fell through
.Now with them killing a Washington Post Journalist and Saudi Arabian princes 
looking more like the mafia than anelectric car savior
I think Tesla and Elon Musk might have nearly destroyed the Tesla brand had 
they been successful,
Something they should be thanking their lucky stars over



  From: Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Mark Abramowitz 
 Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:27 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu [Free 
Supercharging!]
   
Ok, thanks.

I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken!

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 10:15 AM, John Blair via EV  wrote:
> 
> You can check the prices on the Tesla website.  It is different in different 
> states.  Tesla prefers to charge by kWh, but some states don’t allow that so 
> they charge by the minute in two tiers depending on where you are in the 
> charge cycle (above 60kW rate or below).  In California it is 26¢/kWhr. My 
> last trip from Northern California to Southern California in my Model 3 was 
> just under $20 (and I left home 90% full) and about the same on the way home. 
>  Each stop was 15-20 minutes and I was busy the entire time taking my dog for 
> a quick potty break, giving her water, and having a snack.  I actually ended 
> up charging more than I needed to each time. If the car charged in 5 minutes, 
> it would not have been any faster for me.  
> 
> John
> ---
> John G. Blair
> Occidental, California
> 707-874-2399
> http://www.blairstudio.com - Impressionistic Art
> i...@jgblairphoto.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 3:17 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve been told $20.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My understanding is that the cost to use the supercharger network à la 
>>> carte is relatively reasonable (price wise) when compared to buying 
>>> gasoline for a trip of a similar distance. Perhaps somebody with a Tesla 
>>> that doesn't come with free supercharging can report on the prices?
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr

2018-10-15 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
This isn't about fiscal responsibility.  It's exactly the opposite.
Nor does it have really anything to do with EV's except as a stupid scapegoat..
As I said before they have nearly the LOWEST tax and it hasn't changed for 29 
years and they 
are refusing to raise taxes to fix their bridges.    It's not a percentage.   
It hasn't followed inflation since 1989.

So you have a bunch of idiot politicians who refuse to be responsible and allow 
the taxto go up with inflation, so they come up with this ridiculous scheme to 
tax EV's and Hybrids
If you are really interested, you could read the link below.   I Highly 
recommend it if you really want to 
understand what's going onit's got nothing to do with EV's.    But after 
reading this, it puts thisstupid tax in the appropriate perspective.

http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructure/gov-mississippi-roads-bridges-infrastructure.html






  From: Peri Hartman via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Peri Hartman 
 Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 7:10 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr
   
I agree, it's politics. But for a different reason. Currently there 
aren't enough EVs for an EV tax to accumulate anything significant. Yet, 
as few as there are, there are loud voices saying it's unfair for EV 
users to use the roads without paying their share of taxes. Many 
governments expect the share of EVs to grow in the future. At some 
point, the number will be large enough that those loud voices will have 
a point - and there will be noticeably less funds from the gas tax to 
maintain roads. I think what we're seeing is a proactive response. It's 
easier to establish the tax now, when mostly early adopters are buying 
EVs, than later, when they will get an outrage for adding a new tax to a 
large number of people.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Winiarski via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lawrence Winiarski" ; "EVDL 
Administrator" 
Sent: 15-Oct-18 5:27:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr

>
>I think it's politics.
>Mississippi's gas tax hasn't been raised since 1989!!!.    Only 
>Alaska's tax (1970's era) is older.  At $18.79 centsit's also the 4th 
>lowest in the country.  (average is about 31 cents)
>Now they are having some real problems.  Across the state, residents 
>now have to circumvent nearly 500 closed bridges that have been 
>declared unsafe.
>
>So now you raise the gas tax a little so you are at least "close" to 
>the average state and fix the roads.right??...yeah it mightbe a 
>little unpopular among your republican anti-tax friends but...the 
>bridge is closed???  we've got to fix it right???
>..Nope, not when you are a proud Mississippian who believes God will 
>come to their rescue and pay the taxes for them.
>.instead you play political games and look to blame godless EV's and 
>hybrids, who are happy to bend over and accept theblame for 30 years of 
>neglectand shake out their lunch money for 0.001 percent of the 
>problembut at least youdodged the problem until a few hundred more 
>bridges get closed..
>
>
>
>https://itep.org/how-long-has-it-been-since-your-state-raised-its-gas-tax-0518/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
>https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mississippi-closed-bridges-crumbling-infrastructure-threaten-lives-livelihoods-n892571
>
>
>
>      From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>Cc: EVDL Administrator 
>Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr
>
>This isn't about revenue.  The piddling amount it's raising clearly
>demonstrates that.  It's a fine.
>
>It's not even a fine for trying to beat the system.
>
>These politicians aren't just pro-business, they're actively and 
>vehemently
>anti-environment.  If you're pro-environment, even mildly so, this is a 
>way
>from them to punish you.
>
>In other words, they're trolling us.
>
>I won't be at all surprised if they extend their "green fine" to small, 
>fuel-
>efficient pure ICEVs sometime in the future.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr

2018-10-15 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

I think it's politics.
Mississippi's gas tax hasn't been raised since 1989!!!.    Only Alaska's tax 
(1970's era) is older.   At $18.79 centsit's also the 4th lowest in the 
country.   (average is about 31 cents)
Now they are having some real problems.  Across the state, residents now have 
to circumvent nearly 500 closed bridges that have been declared unsafe. 

So now you raise the gas tax a little so you are at least "close" to the 
average state and fix the roads.right??...yeah it mightbe a little 
unpopular among your republican anti-tax friends but...the bridge is closed???  
 we've got to fix it right???
..Nope, not when you are a proud Mississippian who believes God will come to 
their rescue and pay the taxes for them.
.instead you play political games and look to blame godless EV's and hybrids, 
who are happy to bend over and accept theblame for 30 years of neglectand 
shake out their lunch money for 0.001 percent of the problembut at 
least youdodged the problem until a few hundred more bridges get closed..



https://itep.org/how-long-has-it-been-since-your-state-raised-its-gas-tax-0518/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mississippi-closed-bridges-crumbling-infrastructure-threaten-lives-livelihoods-n892571



  From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: EVDL Administrator 
 Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr
   
This isn't about revenue.  The piddling amount it's raising clearly 
demonstrates that.  It's a fine.

It's not even a fine for trying to beat the system.  

These politicians aren't just pro-business, they're actively and vehemently 
anti-environment.  If you're pro-environment, even mildly so, this is a way 
from them to punish you.  

In other words, they're trolling us.

I won't be at all surprised if they extend their "green fine" to small, fuel-
efficient pure ICEVs sometime in the future.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr

2018-10-15 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

$75??.What a crock for someone with a slightly different engine?  C'mon get a 
backbone you 
Mississipussy-stockholm-syndrome-loving-le-priusssissiessidentifying with 
your abusers??well I feel I'm getting a good deal from my kidnappers in 
terms of all the gruel I'm gettingat least I'm "still allowed to drive on 
the roads" while I pay $75 ransom a year more than everyone else...
Do you not understand that you are being targeted?    Why don't you let them 
make you wear a yellow star/EV symbol while you are bending over backwards too?

  From: Bill Collins via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Bill Collins 
 Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 10:14 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr
   
That is about half what I was paying in gas tax for the vehicle we replaced 
with the LEAF or about the same as the gas tax would be on the highest gas 
mileage ICE I could buy. I assume the people complaining are ones who don't 
drive much, but I feel like I'm getting deal on road tax.

Bill
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Why Electric Cars Are Ditching AM Radio

2016-02-10 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I'm just kind of learning this, so take the following with lot's of 
salt.comments and criticism welcome


  Seems to me the problem is that they are leaking high frequency noise in the 
AM spectrum and NOT in theFM.

Not an expert, but academically, seems to me a good Faraday cage and more 
shielding might be the answer, rather than justgetting rid of AM.   Bare 
unshielded wires are going to send out a lot of radiation at whatever frequency 
they operate at.

Interesting about the old claim that FM is inherently better than AM.  I 
think that might be an oversimplification.
AM travels long long distances (because the wavelength is used is better to 
reflect off the upper atmosphere.)  FM can'tdo that.   So the SNR (signal to 
noise ratio) for FM is very very high for longer distances because the signal 
will be so weak.   
So it's not that crackly FM doesn't happen.   It's just that people don't even 
bother trying to listen it's so bad.

It is better than AM for short distances, but that's only at the same wattage.  
  Also the bandwidth used for FM radio stations 
is greater than AM radio bandwidth, and this has a lot to do with SNR ratios 
as.    It should be obvious that you can cure any SNR problems with stronger 
signal.   but because of the fact that AM travels so well, makes that 
problematic as for station to stationinterference.


At some level the distinction between AM and FM is also a little contrived.   
AM also varies the frequency as exploited in single sidebandreceivers.   Any 
varying wave will have have a frequency spread.   So at some level, AM is also 
a form of FM.

I think Armstrong's old demonstrations with a tesla coil showing static on AM 
and not on FM, were probably more than a little 
disingenuous as tesla coils operate at AM frequencies.

From wikipedia:
In 1922, John Renshaw Carson of AT, inventor of Single-sideband modulation 
(SSB modulation), had published a paper in the Proceedings of the IRE arguing 
that FM did not appear to offer any particular advantage.[15] Armstrong managed 
to demonstrate the advantages of FM radio despite Carson's skepticism in a 
now-famous paper on FM in the Proceedings of the IRE in 1936,[16] which was 
reprinted in the August 1984 issue of Proceedings of the IEEE.[17]Today the 
consensus regarding FM is that narrow band FM is not so advantageous in terms 
of noise reduction, but wide band FM can bring great improvement in signal to 
noise ratio if the signal is stronger than a certain threshold. Hence Carson 
was not entirely wrong, and the Carson bandwidth rule for FM is still important 
today. Thus, both Carson and Armstrong ultimately contributed significantly to 
the science and technology of radio. The threshold concept was discussed by 
Murray G. Crosby (inventor of Crosby system for FM Stereo) who pointed out that 
for wide band FM to provide better signal to noise ratio, the signal should be 
above a certain threshold, according to his paper published in Proceedings of 
the IRE in 1937.[18] Thus Crosby's work supplemented Armstrong's paper in 1936.


  From: brucedp5 via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 12:16 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Why Electric Cars Are Ditching AM Radio
   


'EV owners Want Their AM Radio Back'

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/why-electric-cars-are-ditching-am-radio
Why Electric Cars Are Ditching AM Radio
5 February 2016  MEGHAN NEAL

[image  
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/vzU_4bnWa0HQghXTUYtx933Gflhnp2xupQKxmpY2JdpgQuGhMQ8eIJiK4h3gv851Ym372AdcPfPGzr5UrJO6a521OhvpWpC2WR4riM6ROvb5a--5J-zO9e6_xUbHOGI5D-N0YTEq
Screenshot via Tesla Motors Club
]

Electric cars may be energy efficient Earth-saving futuremobiles, but their
rise could also have a strange unintended consequence: killing off the
oldest form of radio.

Two popular electric cars, the BMW i3 and Tesla Model X, are ditching
terrestrial AM radio because electromagnetic noise from the electric motor
interferes with the broadcast reception, causing static, as the blog Music
3.0 recently pointed out.

Electronics have always been a source of AM radio static, and electric
motors are no exception. EVs are powered by a rechargeable battery, electric
motor, and a frequency converter that controls how much power the car's
electrical motors put out by turning voltage on and off thousands of times a
second, basically chopping up energy. This process causes electromagnetic
interference that gets picked up by the radio.

AM radio has always been more susceptible to static than its partner on the
dial. "AM" stands for amplitude modulation, which means the height of the
radio waves are varied over time to encode the information, versus “FM,”
frequency modulation, which varies their speed. Since amplitude, not
frequency, is affected by electrical noise emitted by gadgets like
smartphones, TVs, computers, even vacuum cleaners and hairdryers, AM signals
are prone to distortion and crackling.

That 

Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so SPACEX won't be providing the return trip...

2016-02-05 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Yeah, find another way back from Mars...



   
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Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, pepper-sprayed +

2015-04-30 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

More 
herehttp://smdp.com/police-pepper-spray-santa-monica-man-park-dispute/147521
http://www.surfsantamonica.com/ssm_site/the_lookout/news/News-2015/April-2015/04_29_2015_Attorney_Claims_Super-Aggressive_Santa_Monica_Officers_Roughed_Up_Client.html
In the article, the police claim the charging stations close at 8 pm.(seems 
a little unreasonable)

 From: Lawrence Winiarski lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com
 To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; 
Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, 
pepper-sprayed +
   

More here.. http://santamonicapd.org/Content.aspx?id=52058
 

 From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 8:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, 
pepper-sprayed +
   
On Apr 26, 2015, at 7:30 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Either something huge is missing from the story or we're seeing incredibly 
 poor judgment by police officers.

Alas, I fear the only thing missing is a realization that this sort of shit 
goes on all the time, and it's only quite rare that there's somebody with a 
camera there to film it. The only poor judgement the officers are going to 
consider themselves guilty of is not noticing the bystander with the camera.

Driving While Black is outrageous enough...apparently Charging While Black 
needs to be added to the list.

I have some small hope that the increasing ubiquity of smartphones will help 
keep the cops better in line...but cops are also well known for intimidating 
bystanders into destroying evidence that incriminates corrupt cops, if 
necessary by arresting the bystanders for failing to comply with a police order 
and then accidentally destroying the evidence themselves.

There're lots of good cops on the beat, to be sure...but the system as an whole 
stinks to high heaven.

Regardless...a sad lesson for EV drivers with a built-in suntan. You're at as 
much danger from the cops when you're charging as you are when you're driving; 
plan your charging accordingly, be aware, and protect yourself. Maybe even 
invest in a dsahcam of your own, and a particularly inconspicuous one at 
that

b
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Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, pepper-sprayed +

2015-04-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

More here.. http://santamonicapd.org/Content.aspx?id=52058
  From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 8:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, 
pepper-sprayed +
   
On Apr 26, 2015, at 7:30 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Either something huge is missing from the story or we're seeing incredibly 
 poor judgment by police officers.

Alas, I fear the only thing missing is a realization that this sort of shit 
goes on all the time, and it's only quite rare that there's somebody with a 
camera there to film it. The only poor judgement the officers are going to 
consider themselves guilty of is not noticing the bystander with the camera.

Driving While Black is outrageous enough...apparently Charging While Black 
needs to be added to the list.

I have some small hope that the increasing ubiquity of smartphones will help 
keep the cops better in line...but cops are also well known for intimidating 
bystanders into destroying evidence that incriminates corrupt cops, if 
necessary by arresting the bystanders for failing to comply with a police order 
and then accidentally destroying the evidence themselves.

There're lots of good cops on the beat, to be sure...but the system as an whole 
stinks to high heaven.

Regardless...a sad lesson for EV drivers with a built-in suntan. You're at as 
much danger from the cops when you're charging as you are when you're driving; 
plan your charging accordingly, be aware, and protect yourself. Maybe even 
invest in a dsahcam of your own, and a particularly inconspicuous one at 
that

b
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Re: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, pepper-sprayed +

2015-04-27 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
 
Then, even if making a mistake, why all the aggressive action?  Thanks, 
Bruce, for bringing this to attention (though I suspect this will be all 
over the headlines).

Peri
It apparently happened last Tuesday.I wouldn't hold your breath.    
Unfortunately this sort of stuff happens every day and never gets reported

Sure looks like an innocent guy being abused.   Be nice to figure out a way to 
help a fellow EV'er   ..perhaps more press
Looked up the police reporthe's being charged with typical trumped up 
police bull ...certainly nothing that would indicate a crime.
Police reports here...only one with first name Justin
http://www.santamonicapd.org/PoliceDailyReports/arr20150423.pdf


PALMER, JUSTIN 
 County: Los Angeles For: 148(A)(1) Resist/Obstruct/Delay Peace Officer

Justin Palmer Arrest Details | Local Crime News

|   |
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
| Justin Palmer Arrest Details | Local Crime News The following Official Record 
for JUSTIN PALMER is being redistributed by LCN and is protected by 
constitutional, publishing, and other legal rights.  |
|  |
| View on www.localcrimenews...  | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |





-- Original Message --
From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 26-Apr-15 5:35:27 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Charging-EVr PD-assaulted pushed, handcuffed, punched, 
pepper-sprayed +



% Always show your ID EV-ignorant profiling-police will assault 
charging
EVrs %

http://www.santamonicadispatch.com/2015/04/committee-for-racial-justice-calls-emergency-meeting-tonight/
COMMITTEE FOR RACIAL JUSTICE CALLS EMERGENCY MEETING TONIGHT
April 26, 2015  by Peggy Clifford

The Committee for Racial Justice has called an emergency meeting 
tonight to
discuss an apparent assault Tuesday night on a Black man by Santa 
Monica PD.

The meeting will be held at The Church in Ocean Park, 235 Hill Street, 
Santa
Monica at 7:00 pm. As this is a community problem, the Committee hopes 
for a
large community response.a wide-ranging discussion and the development 
of a
positive and just course of action.

Here is the NAACP’s account of the incident:

Darrell Goode, in his capacity as SM-Venice NAACP President, has asked 
me to
let you know about SMPD activity that took place at an electric car 
charging
dock in Virginia Ave Park in Santa Monica on Tuesday night, April 22 
that is
the subject of community concern.

The electrical charge docks are open until 11pm. A 36 year-old Black 
male
who was charging his electric vehicle at 10:45pm was approached by 
several
police officers, who asked for his ID. He asked “why?” Subsequently, he 
was
pushed to the ground, handcuffed, punched, pepper-sprayed and taken 
into
custody.

The individual was charged with not following a police order. He was 
jailed
and released the next day. He requi-
red eye treatment due to the pepper spray. He has a court date May 25.

A video of some of the interaction was taken by a female passerby,
unacquainted with any of the parties.

[video
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bwdp1kXhDPb3cmFkM01ObmpteUpnZGIzV1d0V0MzeUNoNGlF
]

The video shows apparently egregious behavior by the police. The woman 
who
took the video came forward because she believes the police behavior 
was
excessive.

The information on the video is incomplete. It does not show all 
angles, and
it does not show the entire interaction from start to finish.

On April 23, at First AME Church in Santa Monica, Darrell Goode 
interviewed
the man, the passerby/ witness who videotaped part of the interaction 
and
several other people.

Based on information we have, there was no warrant for the man’s arrest 
and
neither he, his car, nor license number fit any description based on 
any
recent criminal activity.

Darrell Goode has informed SMPD Chief Seabrooks, via SMPD Command 
Staff, of
his efforts to assemble information and his intention to publicize it. 
Based
on what is known so far, he may call a community meeting.

Meantime, Chief Seabrooks has promised a full internal investigation 
and the
man intends to file complaints against one or more of the officers 
involved.

The man has the right to take his case against the officers to the City
Personnel Board. Therefore, in addition to filing a complaint with the 
SMPD,
the man intends to ask for an independent review by the Board.

We are united in our unwavering commitment to non-violent advocacy for
fairness, transparency and justice for all. .
[© santamonicadispatch.com]
...
http://www.santamonicadispatch.com/contact/
Editor: Peggy Clifford – PegClf @aol.com
...
https://sites.google.com/site/churchinoceanpark/
The Church in Ocean Park 310-399-1631 i...@churchop.org
https://www.fac ebook.com/churchop
https://twitter.com/church_op
...
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/5002
Virginia Avenue Park
PlugScore 4.4
Ports EV Plug (J1772)  Custom Ports Avcon conductive
Address 2200 Virginia Ave Santa Monica, CA 90404
Hours NOT 24/7: Chargers are shutdown after 10:30pm
Description 2 level 2 

Re: [EVDL] Toyota FCV (fuel cell vehicle)

2015-04-24 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
my 2 cents:  

Seems to me that using methane to make H2 to run in a car isn't very 
compelling. Why bother since it is so easy to just use a CNG car?  Even 
if it was a few percentage pointsmore efficient..and that's far from certain,  
It doesn't seem worth it.   If you really cared about efficiency that much, 
you'd be modifiying the aerodynamics, not making some more complicated way of 
using the CNG.
But I don't hate fuel cells.    Why hate an idea?   There are actually good 
uses for fuel cells.   They are faster to recharge than lithium batteries.   
They make clean water too.Why not just accept that?  I don't hate the idea 
anymore than I hate the idea of burning coal to make electricity to run the EV. 
   That's not particularly compelling either.     
.IMHO what is compelling is solar panels generating electricity to run the EV.  
 

 Think if Michael Faraday gave up studying his little toy magnets and wires?    
We wouldn't be having EV's...or even electric lights for that matter..but 
sometimes on the way to the future, 
you need to accept that A by itself isn't the answer.   You also need B, 
but according to the law of procrastination, before you can do anything, you 
need to do something else, so why not give up nowanyway, the point is that 
you shouldn't degenerate an idea that hasn't found widespread use yet.   

So stop hating fuel cells.   Maybe they have an appropriate use?  Perhap in 
distant future, in a galaxy far away maybe they might use a reversible fuel 
cell (they exist) that can make hydrogen (and oxygen) from solar panels and  
store it for later use, then use it at will (or at night) to generate heat and 
electricty and Imagine everyone's fuel cell car as a hydrogen-oxygen 
generator while it's parked, which could potentially send hydrogen and perhaps 
oxygen to a hydrogen grid (i.e. pipeline like natural gas).   that could be 
used for machines that don't lend themselves to batteries.    Then these 
same fuel cells could generate electricity at night off the same stored 
hydrogen.

Not saying it's going to happen in our lifetimes,  or even that ithe future 
won't bring something better, but there was a time not so long ago when people 
laughed at ridiculously high priced solar panelsor EV's. 

You never know what the future's going to bring.   I personally wouldn't 
completely condemn fuel cells as ...bull$shit and stop or halt their 
development as some sort of dead end
That seems like the same sort of arrogant talk, not long ago, that people were 
using toward EV's.


  
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

2015-04-06 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV


I think Harbor Freight just announced that their new self driving kit's will be 
available next summer for $299.95  (not counting the 20% off coupons).   
It comes with 2 chicago-electric servo's and a hi-tech camera.
On top of all that, it comes with a genuine lifetime warranty. 

 
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

2015-04-06 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

Yeah, 

Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence 
program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and 
automatically vote for them in elections. If they will trust their lives 
going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless programmers who work 
for some corporation (who can't even make a web browser that doesn't fail), why 
wouldn't they trust a corporation to automatically vote for them?

After all...what could go wrong?
Am I missing something?



  From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars
   
The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun and 
blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit 
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

2015-04-06 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

Maybe this will work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8yE3_Vw144

 

  From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 4:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
   
You mean Diebold?

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 6, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 
 Yeah, 
 
 Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence 
 program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and 
 automatically vote for them in elections.    If they will trust their lives 
 going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless programmers who work 
 for some corporation (who can't even make a web browser that doesn't fail), 
 why wouldn't they trust a corporation to automatically vote for them?
 
 After all...what could go wrong?
 Am I missing something?
 
 
 
  From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars
 
 The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun 
 and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit 
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

2015-04-06 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
You mean these guys?

Electronic Voting
|   |
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
| Electronic Voting  |
|  |
| View on www.youtube.com  | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

  
 From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 4:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
   
You mean Diebold?

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 6, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 
 Yeah, 
 
 Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence 
 program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and 
 automatically vote for them in elections.    If they will trust their lives 
 going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless programmers who work 
 for some corporation (who can't even make a web browser that doesn't fail), 
 why wouldn't they trust a corporation to automatically vote for them?
 
 After all...what could go wrong?
 Am I missing something?
 
 
 
  From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars
 
 The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun 
 and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit 
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Re: [EVDL] self driving cars

2015-04-06 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
 

Here's the elephant in the room that I haven't seen addressed: When a 
self-driving car is involved in a fatal accident, who pays? Who goes to 
jail?
Depends on whether the car had alcohol in it's fuel beyond the legal limit 
whether it goes to jail or not.
   
Of course for EV's the car can be charged with assault and battery

  
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Re: [EVDL] Range vs Speed

2014-11-10 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV



I wonder why motorcycle tires are so much worse. Bicycle tires are 
obviously very good. What is different about motorcycle tires. Is there 
some fundamental reason for the higher rolling resistance, or is it just 
that the manufacturers don't bother (and customers don't care)?



Not 100% sure, but I think rolling resistance is mostly caused by the tire 
deforming as it contacts the ground.The lowest rolling resistance would be 
a solid steel wheel.Any rubber, inflated wheel will deform and have a 
flat contact spot where it contacts the ground.   If this deformation results 
in heat and this heat is lost to the environment , then you lose the energy 
and it appears as rolling resistance 

The area of this flat spot is related to the air presure.   It's also related 
to the sidewall strength.The energy used in this deformation is also 
related to the shape of this  contact patch.   I've heard that a wide tire can 
have lower rolling resistance than a small skinny tire, because if  a wide 
tire's contact patch is the same area as a skinny tire but this makes the flat 
spot of the wide tire result in less overall deformation.   (i.e. it doesn't 
look so flat from the side and more like a circle instead of a circle with a 
flat spot)   Of course a wide tire will probably have more air resistance 
though.

 If the energy used in this deformation could be recovered, then it wouldn't 
matter
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

2014-11-07 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV






Coming soon.   More stuff we need to discourage, because in some way it reduces 
tax revenues


* high recycle households. 

* healthy people.  

* gardeners

* wells and septic tanks
* solar panels
* bicyclers
* joggers
* people who don't consume alcohol and tobacco
It's obvious these people aren't paying their fair share and refuse to join the 
lowest common denominator.
Now, these tax avoiders, might claim that their actions actually 
benefit society and as such don't need to be taxed, but these sorts of 
win-win arguments are self-serving
and therefore wrong.   No one must be allowed to win.  

If we all work together we can create new intrusive technologies for tax 
collection...creating new jobs in state goverment in the process...which will 
further require new taxes
to pay for, in a never ending spiral of job creation.

As an added benefit, these new intrusive technologies will benefit global 
marketing divisions with all sorts of new consumer data, and help our good 
friends at the NSA stop the non-taxpaying-terrorists.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

2014-11-07 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV

And don't
 forget plug-in Hybrids.   They can go on out of state or in state, use 
gasoline (and pay gas tax), use electricity (and potentially be taxed 
via odometer also, resulting
in doubly taxed, no taxed or any combination therein.

Not really! The government must collect taxes to pay for roads. Previously it 
was done by taxing fuel. You can tax electricity to pay for roads because how 
would you know which part went into the vehicle. So they have to devise 
another way


Not previously.   It's STILL done that way.   There isn't a damn thing wrong 
with the current system.If they want more money, just raise the gas tax.  
 If they are too chicken to do that, then they can just accept the consequences.

Adding some stupid tax on cars that get more than 55 mpg or EV's is a damn drop 
in the bucket as far as revenue goes.   This isn't about revenue.   It's about 
something else.

I
 want to stress that the whole thing is ridiculous.   Even if you doubly taxed 
every single EV it would be a drop in the ocean for actual tax 
revenues.

The whole 
fairness thing is a giant red herring devised by a dozen people in the
 dept of Transportation in Oregon,   (As if the public was ever 
clammoring for taxing electric cars ) This group originally formed about
 13 years ago, to get a 2 million dollar Bush-era grant to try and tax 
people for driving during rush hour...so rich people could drive 
unimpeded without the riff raff clogging up their freeways.The did
 a pilot study with GPS installed and they did their stupid study and used the 
money.  then instead of just disbanding,  they need to keep the funding so they 
tried to get it 
expanded and the public overwhelmingly said NO to GPS.   Now their 
cushy jobs were at risk so they dusted off the same study to do try and 
foist the same thing on electric cars and got more tax money.   But 
nobody wants a GPS in their car.   And the shennanigans at the NSA have 
made this even more politically difficult.   So now they are desperately
 lobbying to keep the funding coming and using the crumbling 
infrastructure arguments and trying to get the public mad about EV 
cars...yeah right.   I'd guess 90% of the public doesn't even realize 
there is a tax on gasolineand probably only 1%  have a clue about the 
amounts.   Because they never actually pay a bill.

So this whole thing is about job 
security of a few select people who have already spent millions of 
dollars of tax payer money to collect a few thousand dollars in tax.   They
 bombard  state governments all over the nation with fear mongering 
studies indicating drastically falling revenues over the next 10 
years..and our elected representatives are wetting themselves with math 
and chart anxiety that they don't even understand.   The Oregon group 
keeps pounding into their ears that EV drivers will destroy our nations 
infrastructureSo they create task forces that they can blame if 
anything bad happens.

Also because 
there is no such thing as math at our nations law schools, these same 
geniuses will spend billions of dollars to figure out how to generate 
millions in EV-taxes.

No joke.   It's not about revenue

in 2012 their pilot program cost the taxpayer $1,515,467.
It brought in a whopping $2,840 in tax

Their
 NEW 5000 volunteer program allows 1500 gas vehicle which get LESS than 
17 mpg to pay a tax equivalent to 19 mpg.  In other words it creates a 
SUBSIDY FOR GAS GUZZLERS SO THEY PAY LESS TAX

And here we are..



Source 
http://www.nascio.org/awards/nominations2014/2014/2014OR4-Oregon-ODOT%20-%202014%20Road%20Usage%20Charge%20Program.pdf
and 
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/docs/SB_810_Enrolled_Road_User_Charges_%282013%29.pdf
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Re: [EVDL] Heating system

2014-10-29 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor.   
(there's plenty of it in normal driving).



On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:52 PM, Larry Gales via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
 


Some time ago I did some calculations showing that if you used gasoline for
heating an EV for all the heating you do for the cabin and the batteries,
you would only consume 7-8 gallons of fuel per year.  But if you only used
it when needed, such as for long trips where you need maximum range for
your EV, you would only consume about one gallon per year, an absolutely
trivial amount.
So I think heating with fuel should be a standard feature for electric cars.

-- Larry Gales

On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Perhaps this is a sacrilege on this list, but I'm planning to provide
 cabin heat in my 1981 Electranagon with... diesel fuel!

 I got hold of an old Webasto hydronic heater. You can find them used among
 boat people, bulletin boards at marinas, etc. They sip a tiny bit of diesel
 fuel, and turn it into fairly large quantities of hot water, which I plan
 to run through my Vanagon's heater core.

 Electricity is (as HT Odum would put it) a high transformity fuel,
 meaning it is highly refined and contains a lot of embedded energy. Why
 waste it heating up resistors? A 3kW electric heater running for an hour
 uses up over ten percent of a typical EV battery, whereas one tank of
 diesel will last me all winter.

 Anyway, just a thought...

 Jan

  From: Al via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 
  It's that time of year, time to get the heater installed in my EV.

  When money becomes the deciding factor in food marketing, some very
 bad things can happen. I keep thinking about how during the famine in
 Ireland, the country’s grain was sold in the higher English commodity
 markets to pay rents to absentee landlords while the Irish people starved.
 Now that’s what I call real price discovery. -- Gene Logsdon
  Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Heating system

2014-10-29 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV


  Sure seems to me the answer is to use the waste heat off the electric motor. 
   
 (there's plenty of it in normal driving).

I'm not so sure.  Sebring/Vanguard tried that in the Comuta-Cars (and maybe 
some Citicars).  The ran forced air into the motor for cooling.

Typical AC motor is probably around 85% efficient so 15% = heat.   100 amps at 
150 volts  = 15kw.   15% of 15kw =2.25 kw of heat.


Seems to me thats a fair amount of heat going to waste.   The problem is not 
that it's not there.   It's low grade heat (i.e. low temperature, because you 
don't want the windings hot) so to harvest it, you can't just bring in outside 
cool air through the motor.   You'd
need to run cabin air recirculated and have a seperate system for fresh air.
 I'm not familliar with the car you mentioned.   How did they do it?
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget

2014-06-25 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV


It's always a tough call to figure out how government spends it's money.   
Every department would LOVE to have an infinite budget.

I guess I've just grown unbelievably cynical about the government constantly 
crying they don't enough money then seeing first hand they waste
it instead of trying ..just a little...to do more with less.

I don't trust them anymore.   Not that I trust private industry more, Just that 
govt constantly cry wolf in order to get more funding so they don't
have to economize.

As far as road mileage tax is concerned,  The truth is most of the road 
infrastructure is tremendously overbuilt for just cars and is built very strong 
for 105,000 lb trucks and not 3000 lb automobiles.    That is why roads cost so 
much.   However the trucking industry is very competitive and would fight
like crazy to avoid paying a penny more. 

But the reason they are constantly trying to get bigger trucks on the road is 
because the rail industry is ridiculously lost in the 19th century and they
are so inbred they don't even want to deal with ainything less than a complete 
freight car.    For an exercise in frustration, try shipping a 400 lb item
via rail.   It's near impossible unless you own a sawmill, coal field, or oil 
refinery.     These people don't even know what competition is anymore.   


Ergo, bigger and bigger trucks, ergo more expensive roads and bridges, ergo 
trying to stick the bill onto the average taxpayerthen on down the
food chain to the poor EV driver.

God forbid we would have decent rail transportation instead of constantly 
raising the weight limit for trucks over and over, but asking for sanity appears

to be insane.

As weird as it sounds, IMHO the answer to the road tax is improved intercity 
rail freight.

My two ...(non fuel tax) cents anyway.


On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:02 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:
 


Increased trucking costs would be shared by all, operators in lower pay or
pay increases, owners and stockholders in higher cost and lower margins,
and consumers in higher end cost and shipping cost, or taxpayers pay after
the fact when the infrastructure is already deteriorated instead of kept
well.  But roads need care.

I suppose the last point of taxation makes the least sense to me - as a
general tax.

It seems just fine to me that it is spread around among many as we all
benefit and so need to cover the cost of road building to some extent.  It
is a distortion to lay it all at the feet of one participant or another
whoever has the least clout.  I am not saying I know an answer, but I think
a road use tax of some sort is perhaps less of a distortion.

Maybe the point of greatest clout is where the tax should go - they would
be in more of a position so require that the money be used well.  However,
this troubles me because I think the owners and shareholders care the least
about the infrastructure.  Influence almost always makes for a way to get
more money, but not to spread it around

Anyway we all like to quibble about this, and I wish we would move along
quickly rather than dither over it.  It probably works out one way or
another.


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 8:49 PM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On 06/24/2014 06:57 PM, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:

 The gas tax was effective many years ago. It is insufficient now. Electric
 cars are only a fraction of one percent of the vehicles on the roads. A
 simple survey of the patterns of damaged paving on our roads will
 demonstrate that automobiles are not damaging our streets. The roads are
 damaged by heavy trucks. The automobiles, whether ICE, EV or hybrid,
 should
 not be singled out for road maintenance funding. The trucks are carrying
 goods which benefit everyone. Therefore the gas tax should be maintained
 at
 present levels and a general sales tax increase should be enacted and
 designated for highway maintenance.  Perhaps the food for the families, or
 prescription medicines could be exempt. (As is done in Florida)

  Generally, I agree.  But the fuel tax is not a bad way to pay for roads.
  It used to work well before the value of the fixed tax was reduced due to
 inflation.  Even though they use much more fuel per mile, that doesn't
 really offset the damage done by trucks.  We should start with much higher
 fuel taxes that are some fraction of the fuel cost rather than a fixed
 amount per gallon.  I fail to understand why that is and has been such a
 political impossibility. People that worry about EVs and other light
 vehicles paying their fair share either fail to understand the problem or
 they are dishonest.  Neither is desirable in our officials.
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Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain

Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget

2014-06-25 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
To continue on the point I was making about rail infrastructure being 
hopelessly lost in the 19th century, here is an interesting read.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/us/chicago-train-congestion-slows-whole-country.html?pagewanted=all_r=0
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