Re: [EVDL] Stop subsidizing gasoline and polution

2019-07-19 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Nicely written and really cool they published it. If you see any 
follow-up comments by editors or readers, it would be interesting to 
hear.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 19-Jul-19 10:14:47 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Stop subsidizing gasoline and polution


There was an editorial in the Baltimore sun written by the “Gasoline
Distributors Association” condemning subsidies for EV’s.   Three days
later, they published my response:



*From:* Robert Bruninga
*Subject:* Stop subsidizing gasoline and polution



In the piece to stop subsidizing electric vehicles(EVs) (15 July
Balto-Sun), the Petroleum Distributors Association fails to mention the 26
Billion dollars in subsidies that the fossil fuel industry receives every
year.  They are being paid to continue the status quo, further polluting
our air without penalty.  Gas cars get a free ride on the environment while
EV's protect the environment and get a free ride on the roads.

Be fair. The equitable way to fund our roads and clean air is to add a road
tax on EV's but equally, to add an equal pollution tax on gas cars to cover
the heavy cost that their continued operation is making on our environment
(Maryland's toxic air was worst of all 50 states).  Mark the fall of 2018
as the turning point as sales of fossil fuel vehicles began to decline
while sales of EV' are still growing exponentially.

With over 45 modern EV's on the market in 2019, half now have ranges over
350 miles* and more than half now cost less (with incentives) than the
average gas car.** With every vehicle manufacturer now committed to over
200 models just in the next 6 years it is time to move forward.  With good
range and low cost, EV's are now better, faster, cleaner, safer, quieter,
cheaper to buy, half the cost to operate and 10% of the cost to maintain.
There is a good EV or plug-in hybrid for almost every car need.

Before you buy another gas car, which will still be on the road in 2035,
long past the turning point in our ever worsening air quality, at least
look into an EV.  Plugin every night and have full range every morning and
never have to go find a stinky gas station again.

Bob Bruninga, PE

IEEE Committee on Transportation and Aerospace Policy

Author:  http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html

wb...@amsat.org

*http://aprs.org/Energy/EV/EV-ranges-color-b.pdf
**http://aprs.org/Energy/EV/EV-costs-color-c.pdf
-

http://aprs.org/EV-misinfomation.html
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

2019-07-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
(Really off topic, here) I'm curious about the overall efficiency of 
heat pump HW heaters. If it's in your garage (or basement), and it's 
drawing heat from the garage, that's going to create a very cold garage, 
right ? Further, if adjoining spaces or spaces above aren't fully 
insulated from the garage, you'll also be increasing the heat load in 
those spaces. All this would seem to reduce the efficiency of the HW 
heater dramatically.


So, shouldn't the heat pump be vented to the outdoors ? If so, then its 
efficiency would be determined by the climate where you live. In winter 
it may rely solely on resistance heating. Though it should do quite well 
in summer in most parts of the US.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 18-Jul-19 1:23:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and 
waterheating)



 *-Because a heat pump system is using energy to "move" existing heat,
 it gives you 400% (or more!) efficiencies. [i.e. you use 800 watts to
 drive a compressor and fans, but get 3,200 watts of heat into the
 tank, while cooling the area around the water heater.]


I think it is more like 3 to one.  The higher temp you want the water, the
lower the efficiency and can range between 2 to 1 or 4 to 1.


 I haven't shopped for heat pump water heaters.  It looks like I should.
 I have recently resolved to stop using my propane water heater...


Here is my summary.  They are often called HYBRID water heaters with the
heatpump heating the incoming water at the bottom of the tank and then (if
enabled) a resistance element at the top to provide rapid response and
higher temperatures.  Remember the heatpump is the most efficient when it
is throwing energy at the incoming 60F water with a greater delta-T

The efficiency goes down as the temperature rises.  SO I have mine set to
heat the bottom of the tank to only 105F (where it is still pretty
efficient) and then the top coil heats the rest to 115F.

IN fact, I really have the Heatpump one in series with the old pure
electric one and both have an added 4" insulation around them.  So I let
the heatpump one heat its entire tank to 105F, from there it goes into the
old heater which has the bottom element turned off and the top element set
to 115F.  SO the bulk of the heating (55 to 105F (50 degrees) is done at
3:1 electric effdiciency, and the final 105-115 (10 degrees) is straight
electric at 1:1 (but saves wear and tear on the heatpump, working much
harder j ust to get the final 10 degrees).

Remember you can drastically change the "capacity" of a water heater
simply by the temperature setting.  If you set it to 140F, then when you
take a shower, you only use a little bit of hot water mixed with more cold
water to get to final temp.  This gives you a lot of "hot" water capacity.

If you don't use that much hot water, then set the temperature to 110F,
but now then your shower will be using mostly hot water from the tank and
only using a little bit of cold water.  Now your capacity is much less but
you save energy by not throwing a  higher temperature away mixing it all
with cold water.

Your wife may vary.

Bob
http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

2019-07-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
That was exactly my point, and I thought I said so. It may be that the 
battery isn't worth the cost. Maybe it's better to just install panels 
and lose the excess energy produced if your electric company makes it 
too hard or too expensive to give back to the grid.


Why would anyone want to do this when grid power is so cheap ? Some 
places are charging $0.30 / kWh or more. That isn't so cheap. Further, 
your power may be sourced from coal or nuclear and maybe you would 
prefer to find a cleaner source.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 6:20:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)


Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

But why are you so determined to use batteries when the cost of grid power
is dirt cheap.


It all depends on where you live. Some states have net metering; some don't. 
Some even set up roadblocks, or utilities you a big penalty if you dare to 
generate your own power.

-- In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

2019-07-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
That depends on what you want from your battery. You are assuming a 
battery large enough to power your residence on a dark cloudy day. I'm 
saying to size it only large enough for more-or-less the best case. The 
rest of the time you buy grid power. That eliminates your points 1-5. It 
also means you don't have to deal with net metering, which apparently is 
resisted by many power companies.


True, you don't minimize buying power from the grid, but you do minimize 
the cost of the system, I think.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:22:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

That is why batteries TRIPLE the cost compared to a grid system and 
also require summer/winter life style changes:
1) As you say, when the batteries are full, all your solar investment 
is doing *nothing*
2) In order to have power on cloudy days, you have to oversize the 
batteries 3 to 5 times a day's capacity
3) Combine #1 and #2 and your solar is spending 1/3rd of most days 
doing *nothing*
4) You cannot store in batteries the 2X more energy you get in the 
summer for use later in the winter
5) So, you either throw away half of your solar production in the 
summer and live a tolerable winter life style
6) Or you invest for your summer lifestyle and then just survive the 
winter with half power.


Battery storage when you have the grid (net meter)  is simply not 
economically practical in any way whatsoever.
(Unless you get free batteries and are willling to maintain them for 
the rest of your life)...


Bob
Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html




On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:06 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that 
the

battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The
battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the
grid.

It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

>For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 
500W and
>2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single 
phase
>120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power 
needs.

>
>https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html
>
>$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.
>
>On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV 


>wrote:
>
>>  I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with 
Duke
>>  Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what 
you want

>>  to do. Clearly, YMMV.
>>
>>  I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that 
needed
>>  charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of 
microinverter
>>  120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I 
over
>>  produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that 
contains May 31
>>  they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with 
that.

>>
>>  <
>>  
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail

>>  >
>>  Virus-free.
>>  www.avg.com
>>  <
>>  
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail

>>  >
>>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>>  On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 


>>  wrote:
>>
>>  >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago. 
 The

>>  > utilities
>>  > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net 
metering,

>>  > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
>>  essentially
>>  > doing grid intertie on the sly.
>>  >
>>  > This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic 
guardrails,

>>  > but because you brought it up:
>>  >
>>  > At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast 
was

>>  > guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
>>  >
>>  > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

2019-07-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does 
not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the 
cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper 
work down to a normal electrical permit.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)




On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies 100% of 
the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply domestic power 
from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe assumption, or at least a 
reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is always sufficient for 
the load, except when depleted. The battery would always be charging from a 
solar array, never from the grid.

It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any negative 
conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the solar panels fill 
the battery, excess production is lost.


You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that will 
supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry you over 
night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single battery unit will 
serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use can be around 20kw, 
including car charging.

In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and sold them 
something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.

Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly dependent on 
the utility to accept my excess power.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

2019-07-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies 
100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply 
domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe 
assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the 
battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The 
battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the 
grid.


It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any 
negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the 
solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)


For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 500W and
2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single phase
120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power needs.

https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html

$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:


 I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with Duke
 Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you want
 to do. Clearly, YMMV.

 I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that needed
 charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of microinverter
 120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
 produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains May 31
 they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.

 <
 
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
 >
 Virus-free.
 www.avg.com
 <
 
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
 >
 <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

 On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:

 >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
 > utilities
 > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
 > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
 essentially
 > doing grid intertie on the sly.
 >
 > This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails,
 > but because you brought it up:
 >
 > At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was
 > guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
 >
 > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf
 >
 > And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:
 >
 > http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf
 >
 > (see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)
 >
 > I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the
 > County permit and inspection authority on me, uh, him, threatened
 > utility power disconnect, or applied other punitive sanctions such as
 > a retroactive energy charge of their own estimation. In the end , all
 > the utility wanted was to stop being annoyed by the alarms and alerts
 > in the new software program that they were running to administer the
 > smart meter program for 79,000 customers.
 >
 > Before I go, R.I.P. to friends Richard and Karen Perez, and goodbye
 > to Home Power Magazine, which ceased publication in October of 2018.
 >
 > 
 > Drink This Before Bed, Watch Your Body Fat Melt Like Crazy
 > Diet Insider
 > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5d2a63e484ff63da646est01vuc
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 > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 >
 >

 --
 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 585-6737 Land
 (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
 (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
 Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] Untrue/disinformation: charging EVs vs pacemakers

2019-07-08 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
How is the EMF from charging a car different than from an electric HW 
heater or an electric range ?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 07-Jul-19 10:53:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Untrue/disinformation: charging EVs vs pacemakers 






 (?more koch-koolaid?)
https://www.autoconnectedcar.com/2019/07/should-i-sit-in-a-ev-while-my-tesla-leaf-bmw-i3-kia-soul-bolt-volt-or-any-ev-is-charging-or-fast-charging/
Should I Sit in a EV While My Tesla, LEAF, BMW i3, Kia Soul, Bolt, Volt or
Any EV is Charging or Fast Charging?
July 7, 2019  Lynn Walford

I have been an EV driver for almost four years. At first I, would leave my
dog in the car to run into the store while my car was charging at 240 Volts
until I read the manual.  What I learned made me to decide to never ever
stay or be in an electric vehicle while it is charging. Should I sit in
vehicle while it is trickle, 240 or fast charging? I say no way—and “It’s
better safe than sorry.”

The Nissan LEAF manual states

If you use any medical electric devices, such as an implantable cardiac
pacemaker or an implantable cardiovascular defibrillator, check with the
electric medical device manufacturer concerning the effects that charging
may have  on implanted devices before starting the charge operation because
Charging may affect the operation.

If you have an implantable cardiac pacemaker or an implantable
cardiovascular defibrillator, while the Li-ion battery is charging:

Do not stay inside the vehicle.

Do not go inside the vehicle, for example to remove or place an item
in the passenger compartment.

Do not open the rear hatch, for example. to remove or place an item
in the cargo area.

Charging may affect the operation of electric medical device and
result in serious personal injury or death

Let’s think about it for a moment—the electromagnetic energy from a car
charging can affect a pacemaker or medical device. Human beings are
electromagnetic beings—-Would you stand under a power line or live under a
power line by choice?

Recent cell phone usage studies found that cell phone use over 10 years
causes an increased risk of acquiring certain types of brain tumor and
salivary cancer—-that’s from exposing your head an face  about 1 kilowatt
hour per year.  A low-end electric car will have a 24 KW battery pack that
is 24 times more than a year of cell phone use… There is no mention of
medical devices in a Tesla 3 manual.  It could be the 1920’s when everyone
smoked cigarettes it wasn’t until decades later that manufacturers put
warnings on the cigarettes.

We electric car owners don’t want to be the test subjects for new cancer
studies—I see people all the time sitting in a BMW i3, Chevy Volt, Chevy
Bolt, Telsa and even a Smart EV.  I do not ever sit in my car while it is
charging—there is no need for me to be there.  I go walk some where.

According to the Chevy Bolt manual:

Do not attempt to disconnect the DC vehicle plug while charging is
active. This action may damage vehicle or charging station hardware.

Never leave children unattended near the vehicle while the vehicle is
charging and never allow children to play with the charge cord.

This vehicle has systems that operate on a radio frequency that complies
with Part 15/Part 18 of the
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) rules and with Industry Canada
Standards RSS-GEN/210/216/220/251/310, ICES?001.Operation is subject to the
following
two conditions:

1. The device may not cause harmful interference.
2. The device must accept any interference received, including
interference that may cause undesired operation of the device.

These are also serious consideration–children shouldn’t play with cords—-nor
adults. If there is a power surge caused by lightening I would not want to
be a charging vehicle.

What if water gets in the charger?

Although the charging port is waterproof—something metal or conductive could
affect the charging port. Do you want to be in a vehicle when it catches
fire: Not me—-

What if the batteries leak?

Leaks or damage to the Li-ion battery may result in a fire. If you discover
a leak, contact emergency services immediately. Since the fluid leak may be
lithium manganate from the Li-ion battery, never touch the fluid leak inside
or outside the vehicle. If the fluid contactsyour skin or eyes, wash it off
immediately with a large amount of water and receive immediate medical
attention to help avoid serious injury.

Should a repair shop bake or use heat on paint when when repairing an
electric vehicle?

In the event of an accident that requires body repair and painting, the
vehicle should be delivered to your dealer the Li-ion battery pack and high
voltage parts such as the inverter, including the wiring harness, removed
prior to painting. Li-ion battery packs exposedto heat in the paint booth
will experience capacity loss. Damaged Lion battery packs 

Re: [EVDL] Stella Era unveiled

2019-07-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Truly impressive. It appears they focused mostly on aerodynamics, as the 
solar charge rate is 12km/h max. They claim a range of at least 400km in 
winter at highway speeds. Of course, you get the additional advantage 
that it is potentially charging while sitting in a parking lot, meaning 
that on normal days you probably don't have to plug in at all.


More info here:
https://lightyear.one/

And here
https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/25/lightyear-one-debuts-as-the-first-long-range-solar-powered-electric-car/

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 04-Jul-19 8:30:30 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Stella Era unveiled


The 2019 Stella solar car is unveiled. Lawrence Rhodes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_c4fuLWq_A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQAq3_M0LY0


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Re: [EVDL] balancing: ?PD.lu purposely maintenance-drain Tesla-S pack every 20, 000km?

2019-07-02 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
What would be cool is if the EVSE had a "recalibrate" mode where it 
first fed power back to the grid and then recharged the EV.


-- Original Message --
From: "Peri Hartman" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 02-Jul-19 6:17:13 AM
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] balancing: ?PD.lu purposely maintenance-drain 
Tesla-S pack every 20, 000km?



Ah, that makes more sense. Thus, every time I fully charge, I am balancing the 
cells. That's what I've been assuming.

To calculate the Wh, though, does one really have to fully discharge ? I guess, 
no matter how accurately it can measure current out of and current into the 
battery, cumulative errors will appear. But fully discharging an EV battery is 
difficult ! How do you do it  - leave it in the driveway with the heater 
running full ?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "paul dove" ; "brucedp5" 
Sent: 01-Jul-19 8:24:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] balancing: ?PD.lu purposely maintenance-drain Tesla-S pack 
every 20, 000km?


I think people get confused with the term balancing. It is pretty much a carry 
over from lead acid batteries where the take all the cells to boiling to get 
them to the same voltage at the end of charge. It doesn't apply to Lithium 
since this is derogatory to cell life.
I believe what people are experiencing is the algorithm built into the system 
that keeps up with capacity from all the data, current, voltage, sag, internal 
resistance, temperature after a while of short discharges and charges 
the capacity value can get off from actual battery capacity and it gets 
corrected when you do a deeper discharge.
If any balancing is going on it happens every time you charge... most likely or 
when close to fully charged. Maybe some guys who actual take cell data can shed 
some light on this but I don't think this is affecting capacity much.


On Saturday, June 29, 2019, 5:44:55 PM CDT, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:

 It took some digging, but I found a EVLN post I made back in Aug 2015 that
might shed some light on this topic, see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Offset-Supercharging-degradation-with-pack-balancing-tp4677028.html
 ... Lost capacity may be restored by “balancing the pack”—that is, charging
it to 100 percent to make sure that each of the cells is fully topped off.

Tesla, of course, is mum on the subject; I’ve never seen any official word
on pack balancing, and the company officially recommends against charging to
100 percent unless maximum range is necessary.

The Model S fan site Teslarati, however,  recommends charging the pack to
100 percent every three months or so.

When I asked at my local Tesla Service Center about “pack balancing”, I was
told they did it all the time.

“Discharge it as close as you can to zero, and then charge it as slow as
possible all the way up to 100 percent,” I was told. “You’ll probably get
some capacity back.”

It works!
 ...

 and comments on this topic are shown on:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page=413529=tesla+pack+balancing=0




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] balancing: ?PD.lu purposely maintenance-drain Tesla-S pack every 20, 000km?

2019-07-02 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Ah, that makes more sense. Thus, every time I fully charge, I am 
balancing the cells. That's what I've been assuming.


To calculate the Wh, though, does one really have to fully discharge ? I 
guess, no matter how accurately it can measure current out of and 
current into the battery, cumulative errors will appear. But fully 
discharging an EV battery is difficult ! How do you do it  - leave it in 
the driveway with the heater running full ?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "paul dove" ; "brucedp5" 
Sent: 01-Jul-19 8:24:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] balancing: ?PD.lu purposely maintenance-drain 
Tesla-S pack every 20, 000km?



I think people get confused with the term balancing. It is pretty much a carry 
over from lead acid batteries where the take all the cells to boiling to get 
them to the same voltage at the end of charge. It doesn't apply to Lithium 
since this is derogatory to cell life.
I believe what people are experiencing is the algorithm built into the system 
that keeps up with capacity from all the data, current, voltage, sag, internal 
resistance, temperature after a while of short discharges and charges 
the capacity value can get off from actual battery capacity and it gets 
corrected when you do a deeper discharge.
If any balancing is going on it happens every time you charge... most likely or 
when close to fully charged. Maybe some guys who actual take cell data can shed 
some light on this but I don't think this is affecting capacity much.


On Saturday, June 29, 2019, 5:44:55 PM CDT, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:

 It took some digging, but I found a EVLN post I made back in Aug 2015 that
might shed some light on this topic, see

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Offset-Supercharging-degradation-with-pack-balancing-tp4677028.html
 ... Lost capacity may be restored by “balancing the pack”—that is, charging
it to 100 percent to make sure that each of the cells is fully topped off.

Tesla, of course, is mum on the subject; I’ve never seen any official word
on pack balancing, and the company officially recommends against charging to
100 percent unless maximum range is necessary.

The Model S fan site Teslarati, however,  recommends charging the pack to
100 percent every three months or so.

When I asked at my local Tesla Service Center about “pack balancing”, I was
told they did it all the time.

“Discharge it as close as you can to zero, and then charge it as slow as
possible all the way up to 100 percent,” I was told. “You’ll probably get
some capacity back.”

It works!
 ...

 and comments on this topic are shown on:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page=413529=tesla+pack+balancing=0




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Excellent article

2019-06-28 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Yep, these are all good ideas, including making H2 for grid storage. All 
have their problems, but all can help with the "no wind" days, etc.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Jay Summet via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Jay Summet" 
Sent: 28-Jun-19 7:46:02 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Excellent article


Personally for large grid scales, I like gravity based storage, which can use 
moving train cars on sloped tracks, or tower cranes that lift and then drop 
large concrete blocks (building and unbuilding towers of blocks to 
store/recover energy).

You can also use pumped water storage into man-made reservaurs, which basically 
just creates a new pond/lake in a high area that did not have any existing 
water flow, so there is minimal ecological changes (makes more wetlands if 
anything...)

Jay

On 6/27/19 11:15 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Electrolysis has thermodynamic limits to efficiency, but making H2 and O2
are a good way to store, large scale, renewable energy for which no other
means are as environmentally sound.

We don't want to dam up any water courses if that is possible, so more pump
storage is to be avoided. It would be nice not to resort to nukes. The
materials needed to store energy using batteries on a large utility scale
are prohibitive, plus these materials are very helpful for transportation
applications.  We could store off peak renewable energy production in large
tanks and combust them when peak demand hits. The cost of enormous tanks is
far less compared to batteries on the same enormous scale. This is cleaner
too than dealing with spent batteries.

I don't like H2 for mobile applications. Batteries keep getting better.



On Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 10:41 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:


The author claims the only real advantage to fuel cells is the fueling
time. And that was two years ago. It's even less of an advantage now and
the trend is continuing.

The only other argument I can see would be the efficiency of the overall
system, including generating hydrogen. The generation part is the loser.
As far as I know, there are only two ways to generate large amounts of
hydrogen: electrolysis or breaking down hydrocarbon molecules.
Electrolysis is about 50% efficient, I think. Hydrocarbon generally
depends on natural gas, and I think we're going to see an enormous push
back on fracking as more health and environmental issues manifest.

Maybe Toyota got a lot of grant money from Calif. ?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 26-Jun-19 6:43:27 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Excellent article (was: Lets discourage hydrogen
advocates. )


Very well researched article on H2 fuel cells versus EV's.

The article expertly covers the "what" but doesn't mention the "why" of

Toyota and H2.

I really would like to know what motivates Toyota to keep pushing H2

passenger cars.


Bill D.

On 6/27/2019 9:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
This was a story saying Toyota thought Elon Musk was right but they were

going to make Fool cells anyway.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Excellent article (was: Lets discourage hydrogen advocates. )

2019-06-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
The author claims the only real advantage to fuel cells is the fueling 
time. And that was two years ago. It's even less of an advantage now and 
the trend is continuing.


The only other argument I can see would be the efficiency of the overall 
system, including generating hydrogen. The generation part is the loser. 
As far as I know, there are only two ways to generate large amounts of 
hydrogen: electrolysis or breaking down hydrocarbon molecules. 
Electrolysis is about 50% efficient, I think. Hydrocarbon generally 
depends on natural gas, and I think we're going to see an enormous push 
back on fracking as more health and environmental issues manifest.


Maybe Toyota got a lot of grant money from Calif. ?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" 
Sent: 26-Jun-19 6:43:27 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Excellent article (was: Lets discourage hydrogen 
advocates. )



Very well researched article on H2 fuel cells versus EV's.

The article expertly covers the "what" but doesn't mention the "why" of Toyota 
and H2.
I really would like to know what motivates Toyota to keep pushing H2 passenger 
cars.

Bill D.

On 6/27/2019 9:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
This was a story saying Toyota thought Elon Musk was right but they were going 
to make Fool cells anyway.  Lawrence Rhodes
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[EVDL] BEV buses to operate in Seattle area

2019-06-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Excerpts from:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/coming-to-south-king-county-battery-powered-buses-and-a-big-new-base/

Coming to South King County: battery-powered buses and a big new base

King County Metro Transit says it will increase its fleet by 625 
battery-powered electric buses over the next 20 years and house them in 
Tukwila and a new base in the Green River Valley.


The plan represents an ambitious effort by the nation’s sixth-biggest 
public bus agency to reduce fossil fuels, following Metro’s renewal of 
its 174-coach Seattle wire-powered trolley-bus fleet in 2015, and its 
early adoption of diesel-hybrid buses in 2007.


Diane Carlson, capital-projects director, announced Wednesday that 
testing is underway to confirm battery buses can travel 140 miles


Metro has been operating 11 Proterra quick-charge buses, costing about 
$975,000 each, that repower at Eastgate to circulate on Bellevue routes. 
Meanwhile, Washington state will gradually apply its $112 million share 
of the Volkswagen emissions-fraud settlement to help local agencies buy 
cleaner vehicles. That includes 50 electric transit buses in six 
counties to date, the Ecology Department said.


Buses from New Flyer, Proterra and BYD will be tested this year, 
followed by initial orders, spokesman Jeff Switzer said.





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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

2019-06-26 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Very interesting situation. We may see a lot more of this. (And, it's 
much harder to imagine such support from the BEV side, since electricity 
is generated from such a diaspora.)


I'm curious, Willie, when meeting one-on-one with people, did you ever 
have the chance to breach the question of where the hydrogen comes from 
? Some people, once engaged in a question, will at least listen.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 26-Jun-19 5:55:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.



I offer this anecdote that I deem relevant.

Driving my then new Model S in about 2014, I was visiting some cousins near 
Golden/Denver.  At the time, the Texas-Colorado SuperCharger route was up through 
Wichita; before Trinidad opened.  One cousin was a recently retired high school teacher 
that still had close connections with her old school.  She wanted to do some EV promotion 
at the school and show me one of the school projects.  The project was a one off hydrogen 
single seat open wheel "race" car following some formula.  The car was on 
semi-permanent display inside the school.  I eventually learned that it was part of a 
Shell sponsored hydrogen promotion effort.  Zero emissions race series.  Fuel of the 
future.  That kind of thing. Much of the school was enthusiastic about the project and 
almost completely unaware of the issues of practical hydrogen use.  Or that Shell was 
trying to maintain control of vehicle fueling.   I would say it was highly successful in 
giving hydrogen a wide and favorable local audience.  Probably t

housands of people were left with a favorable view of hydrogen.  Maybe 10s of 
thousands.  Maybe more.  I think the car had a battery buffer.  I asked the 
source of fuel.  It was purchased or given in little pressurized metal flasks.  
Some where in the range of 1 quart to 1 gallon.  I believe Shell supplied car 
building kits and the schools were left mostly with chassis work.


That was my first encounter with rather dishonest hydrogen promotion at a local 
level.  I asked pointed questions but did not make any enemies. I fear I also 
failed to sway any opinions.  I did give a lot of Tesla rides/demos.  Maybe 
eventually sold a few Teslas.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's can't-do EVs attitude> while others can

2019-06-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Hard to say. They did nothing for a while with EVs. Then, when the Tesla 
3 was imminent, they came out with the Bolt. Quickly. I would like to 
think they are waiting in the same manner. As long as they can 
profitably sell ICE trucks, why take a risk ? (I wish they would, 
though.)


In this case, I think Ford is the more important player to watch. They 
totally dominate the pickup truck market.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 17-Jun-19 6:55:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM's can't-do EVs attitude> while others can


Looks like GM's going to drop the ball yet again.  They never learn.  It'll
be much like 1973, when the Mideast Oil Embargo hit and people were lining
up at filling stations to get their 8 gallon unofficial rations.

Drivers demanded fuel efficient cars.  What did GM offer them?  The
Chevrolet Vega and, later, Chevette.  Ford wasn't winning many prizes with
their Pinto, either.

Toyota and Nissan were more than happy to step in.  I remember the
billboards, "Datsun saves - about a gallon a day."  They gained a foothold
in the US market that would otherwise have probably taken them decades to
achieve.

Look where we are now.  The US is clearly spoiling for yet another fight in
the Mideast, swaggering around and waving their six-guns at Iran.  If they
get the shooting war that they apparently want, it'll be interesting to see
what happens to international fuel prices as tanker traffic through the
Strait of Hormuz gets increasingly hazardous.

Toyota has calcified a lot since the early 1970s, and this time I expect
that they'll end up in about the same place as Ford and GM. The smaller and
more nimble automakers from China and India, and possibly Korea, will be the
ones who shove them aside with available and affordable EVs.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Public EVSE charging using a burner phone Visa

2019-06-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

yea ! This is one of the key requirements for public acceptance.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 17-Jun-19 2:03:56 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Public EVSE charging using a burner phone 
 Visa





https://electrek.co/2019/06/13/california-roaming-anon-ev-charging/
California to mandate ‘roaming’, anon charging for EV charging networks
Jun. 13th 2019  Charles Benoit

[image
https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/10/ev-charging-e1508441311916.jpg
]

Exciting news for California EV drivers tired of subscriptions and apps.

In the next couple of years, you should be able to use any public charger in
the state with nothing more than a burner flip-phone and pre-paid Visa.

In two weeks, the California Air Resources Board will consider a new
regulation (PDF) mandating that all public EV chargers have credit card
readers, and also a toll-free phone number to initiate charging sessions and
make payments. EV charging network operators like Chargepoint, Electrify
America, and EVgo will also be banned from requiring any kind of
subscription or membership before initiating a charge.

Network operators will also be required to facilitate ‘roaming’ between
networks, as all stations will have to work with the California Open Charge
Point Interface.

Implications for Tesla?
Tesla’s Supercharging network isn’t impacted, because chargers “provided by
a manufacturer of electric vehicles for the exclusive use by vehicles it
manufactures” are not considered public, so it is not covered by the
regulation.

Still, this could be a deterrent for Tesla opening up its network to another
manufacturer.

Electrek’s Take
Another excellent move by the Golden State. We should all resist a future
where you need a smartphone even to get the basics like food or fuel. When
people buy gas, they don’t have to care who’s running the station or have
any affiliation with them. The same should be true of charging your EV.
[© electrek.co]




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Re: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 in North America.

2019-05-29 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Well, I tried contacting Nissan. Their general feedback form wouldn't 
work because it required selecting a dealer, but there aren't any 
dealers in Seattle - it wouldn't let me select a dealer from an adjacent 
area. That's pretty stupid software !


So, I found another form where you can inquire directly to a dealer. I 
chose one and asked about the e-nv200. No response from the dealer. But 
I got a response from HQ. Hope flared !!! I replied to him asking when 
the e-nv200 would be available explaining that it would be the perfect 
vehicle for my needs. No response. I send a 2nd email. No response.


I guess NISSAN DOESN'T REALLY CARE about customers unless one is in the 
process of buying something now.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 18-May-19 11:59:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 
in North America.



Willie via EV wrote:

On 5/18/19 12:38 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:


drag and increased energy consumption (and reduced range). Simply
raising a
vehicle increases frontal area by virtue of the tires being more exposed.


I believe the under car air speed is also increased.  Or, maybe
increased turbulence.  Anyway, I think it is worse than just exposing
more tire.


I think that is true. Keeping the car low is a way to reduce the amount of air 
and turbulence underneath. Of course, a smooth bottom would help; but that 
costs too much.

Big fat tires with lots of tread have lots of wind resistance. And, the tops of 
the tires are moving forward at *double* the speed of the car!

Paul MacReady (of Aerovironment) talked a lot about auto aerodynamics when he 
was designing the Impact (aka GM EV1). Things I recall:

- Aero testing is in wind tunnels, with car and tires not moving.
- The roughness of the bottom of the car is usually ignored.
- Spinning tires have much more drag than stationary ones.
- Most cars are more aerodynamic in reverse.

So, he designed the EV1 with a smooth bottom, with wheel wells optimized as "ducts" to 
minimize turbulence, and a shape that actually *was* aerodynamic (instead of what some stylist 
thinks will "look" aerodynamic).

If you need more ground clearance sometimes, maybe adjustable air bags are an 
answer?
-- Fools ignore complexity. Pragmatists suffer it. The wise avoid it.
Geniuses remove it. -- Alan Perlis, "Epigrams on Programming"
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings - how about fossil fuel heaters?

2019-05-29 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Robert, the energy needed long term would be determined by the heat 
loss, not the mass being heated. Thus, if perfectly insulated there 
would be no heat loss and thus no energy needed to keep the battery 
warm.


So, my question persists. Why didn't BYD put thermal management into 
their battery?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 29-May-19 2:43:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings - how about 
fossil fuel heaters?



Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

wouldn't it be just as easy to insulate the battery and
provide a small electrical heat source. 100W or so?


Lets say a 1000 lB battery.  It takes 1 BTU to raise one pound one degree.
To raise 1000 lbs say 40 degrees from 0F to 40F would take 40,000 BTU or
about 11 kWh. Or about 33 miles of range given up to heat the battery.


True enough if you're warming up a cold battery. But it would be foolish to 
heat the battery with its own charge.

Instead, you would use AC mains power to heat it. In that case, you'd be 
charging the pack at the same time. So heating the battery from a cold start 
just adds to the charging time. When the charge cycle finishes, you have a 
fully-charged, fully warmed up battery; so no loss of range.

The battery pack has so much thermal mass that if it is well insulated, it will 
stay warm all day, without any supplemental heating. Wait until the next time 
it's plugged in to warm it back up.

-- In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings - how about fossil fuel heaters?

2019-05-29 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
If you're building from scratch, wouldn't it be just as easy to insulate 
the battery and provide a small electrical heat source? If well 
insulated, how much power would it take? 100W or so, or am I completely 
off.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 29-May-19 8:01:46 AM
Subject: RE: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings - how about 
fossil fuel heaters?



I wouild like to see the cost/carbon/benefit analysis of providing
fossil-fuel catalytic heaters in cold climatges.  Yes, there is double to
triple energy savings with heatpumps but they still do not work effectively
at cold climates.

Me thinks that using a fossil fuel 99.9% efficient heater for people and
battery might be worth studying in cold areas..  And the tradeoff should be
based on total carbon emissionis, not just cost.  And, of course, it will
change over time as the grid gets cleaner.

-Original Message-----
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings bite them in the
arse

I wonder why they didn't' design a battery warmer into the case (at least I
assume they didn't). Seems that would have made a tremendous difference in
this case.

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" ; "brucedp5"

Sent: 28-May-19 11:54:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings bite them in the
arse


It’s not about whether or not the range is lower at lower temperatures, or
what you get in your car, but the accuracy of the claims being made by
vendors of zero emission technologies, and the commitments they make to
customers.

BYD has some *great* products and is run by sone great folks, but this kind
of thing undermines the ability to transform fleets to zero emissions. It
hurts all of us working  in the field when companies fail to meet the
contracted performance specs in their contracts.

And this is not the only similar horror story I’ve heard (though not
necessarily about BYD).

There is really no excuse for this. I will likely see BYD’s President later
this week, and will be expressing my disappointment.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


  On May 28, 2019, at 7:58 PM, Rod Hower via EV  wrote:

  Anybody that drives an EV, even a Volt that is a series hybrid realize
 the cold temperature limitations, especially if you like to keep it warm
 and cozy on cold days.  I get 46 miles EV on my 2014 Volt on the best
 days, 24 miles on the coldest nastiest days when I like to keep the car
 warm and toasty.  Not a problem for me since I commute 21 miles and plug
 in at work and I also plug in at home with 240V so I never use gas.  My
 best guess is this BYD range was estimated by sales and marketing while
 the engineers were cringing in the corner knowing it was complete BS, but
 the accounting department and upper management looking for higher returns
 on investment realized range needed to be increased to meet contracts
 with bus fleets that required the higher range, regardless of them
 actually needing them.  The good news is that the majority of bus
 manufactures see the writing on the wall and are planning for an all
 electric fleet knowing that will be demanded soon by many fleet orders.
 The immediate future for bus transit is electric and most manufactures
 are already gearing up for that.  With the advancements in batteries,
 motors and controls, most fleet operators realize that electric is
 cheaper to maintain than diesel or natural gas.  The transitions will not
 happen overnight, been when the people paying for overall cost of fleet
 operation is much cheaper on electric they will switch, and it's coming
 soon < 5 years.
 On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 10:34:59 PM EDT, brucedp5 via EV
  wrote:



  https://electrek.co/2019/05/24/byd-indianapolis-electric-bus-range/
  BYD installing wireless charging in Indianapolis to boost
 disappointing  range of its electric buses  May. 24th 2019

  [image

 https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/05/indy
 gobydbus.jpg
  e-bus
  ]

  Electric bus maker BYD has to install and pay for a wireless
 charging  infrastructure upgrade in Indianapolis after its buses
 experienced  “lower-than-expected distances on one charge” during
 testing.

  Indianapolis Public Transportation Corporation IndyGo announced it
 reached  an agreement with BYD to get the new infrastructure. BYD
 will install  wireless charging hardware for the buses, in addition
 to three wireless  inductive charging pads along bus routes.

  During testing, IndyGo realized low temperatures were causing a
 dramatic  dropoff in predicted range. Justin Stuehrenberg, IndyGo
 vice president of  capit

Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings bite them in the arse

2019-05-29 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I wonder why they didn't' design a battery warmer into the case (at 
least I assume they didn't). Seems that would have made a tremendous 
difference in this case.


-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" ; "brucedp5" 


Sent: 28-May-19 11:54:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BYD's(style.cn) inflated range ratings bite them in 
the arse



It’s not about whether or not the range is lower at lower temperatures, or what 
you get in your car, but the accuracy of the claims being made by vendors of 
zero emission technologies, and the commitments they make to customers.

BYD has some *great* products and is run by sone great folks, but this kind of 
thing undermines the ability to transform fleets to zero emissions. It hurts 
all of us working  in the field when companies fail to meet the contracted 
performance specs in their contracts.

And this is not the only similar horror story I’ve heard (though not 
necessarily about BYD).

There is really no excuse for this. I will likely see BYD’s President later 
this week, and will be expressing my disappointment.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On May 28, 2019, at 7:58 PM, Rod Hower via EV  wrote:

 Anybody that drives an EV, even a Volt that is a series hybrid realize the cold 
temperature limitations, especially if you like to keep it warm and cozy on cold 
days.  I get 46 miles EV on my 2014 Volt on the best days, 24 miles on the coldest 
nastiest days when I like to keep the car warm and toasty.  Not a problem for me 
since I commute 21 miles and plug in at work and I also plug in at home with 240V 
so I never use gas.  My best guess is this BYD range was estimated by sales and 
marketing while the engineers were cringing in the corner knowing it was complete 
BS, but the accounting department and upper management looking for higher returns 
on investment realized range needed to be increased to meet contracts with bus 
fleets that required the higher range, regardless of them actually needing them.  
The good news is that the majority of bus manufactures see the writing on the wall 
and are planning for an all electric fleet knowing that will be demanded soon by 
many fleet orders.  The immediate future for bus transit is electric and most 
manufactures are already gearing up for that.  With the advancements in batteries, 
motors and controls, most fleet operators realize that electric is cheaper to 
maintain than diesel or natural gas.  The transitions will not happen overnight, 
been when the people paying for overall cost of fleet operation is much cheaper on 
electric they will switch, and it's coming soon < 5 years.
On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 10:34:59 PM EDT, brucedp5 via EV 
 wrote:



 https://electrek.co/2019/05/24/byd-indianapolis-electric-bus-range/
 BYD installing wireless charging in Indianapolis to boost disappointing
 range of its electric buses
 May. 24th 2019

 [image
 
https://i2.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/05/indygobydbus.jpg
 e-bus
 ]

 Electric bus maker BYD has to install and pay for a wireless charging
 infrastructure upgrade in Indianapolis after its buses experienced
 “lower-than-expected distances on one charge” during testing.

 Indianapolis Public Transportation Corporation IndyGo announced it reached
 an agreement with BYD to get the new infrastructure. BYD will install
 wireless charging hardware for the buses, in addition to three wireless
 inductive charging pads along bus routes.

 During testing, IndyGo realized low temperatures were causing a dramatic
 dropoff in predicted range. Justin Stuehrenberg, IndyGo vice president of
 capital projects and planning, said:

 “We anticipated that vehicle range would depend on temperature, but the
 contract requires a 275-mile range at 0 degrees. Our team identified several
 options to address the issue and worked closely with BYD to determine the
 most feasible resolution. At the same time, we made it clear to the company
 they must be accountable to our contract. Numerous test days this spring
 resulted in range performance at and above the contractually required 275
 miles on a single charge. To date, the best range of any one test was 307
 miles on a single charge.”

 Many of those tests didn’t approach the required 275 miles, usually ending
 somewhere in the low 200-mile range, as the range report from IndyGo
 reveals. On one frigid day, range was limited to 152 miles.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Chevron-pr is pro-EV secret con-EV campaign> forked-tongue

2019-05-29 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think we'll see more and more EV support by the petrol industry, such 
as this case. I think they understand that their industry is slowly 
going to shrivel. Of course, it's hard to know at this point whether 
Chevron is genuine or just doing a big PR stunt. Seems genuine, though.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 28-May-19 10:50:48 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Chevron-pr is pro-EV  secret con-EV campaign> 
forked-tongue





https://electrek.co/2019/05/28/chevron-secret-campaign-electric-cars/
Chevron lobbyist pushes secretive campaign against electric cars in Arizona
May. 28th 2019   Phil Dzikiy

[images
https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/05/evgochevron.jpg


share
https://twitter.com/Court_Rich/status/1129521190718980096
Court Rich @Court_Rich
What leadership looks like: Group rep’ing @Microsoft @Nike @Starbucks @lyft
and others urges strong mandatory renewable standards in AZ:
https://images.edocket.azcc.gov/docketpdf/198008.pdf …

What corporate rent seeking looks like: @Chevron trying to use AstroTurf to
stop AZ EV growth: https://images.edocket.azcc.gov/docketpdf/E00802.pdf
…
5:56 PM - May 17, 2019
]

Oil and gas company Chevron recently announced that it’s bringing electric
vehicle chargers to its gas stations — meanwhile, one of its lobbyists is
spurring a fight against EV infrastructure in Arizona.

A Chevron lobbyist is persuading retirees of the company in Arizona to push
back against electric car policies in the state, the Arizona Republic
reports.

As the article notes, these Chevron retirees are using a form letter
designed to urge Arizona Corporation Commissioners “not to require electric
companies here to build electric car charging stations.” The Chevron
retirees are also not identifying themselves as such, which is what’s
causing the controversy.

Chevron lobbyist Marian Catedral-King sent the “call to action” form letter
to Sel Larsen, president of the Arizona retirees group.

But David Newell of Scottsdale alerted the commissioners to the effort with
his own email. It seems the letter got into the hands of the wrong person —
Newell worked for Unocal on geothermal energy projects, but “because that
company was acquired by Chevron, he is considered a Chevron retiree.”

As Newell wrote to commissioners about Chevron’s efforts:

I emphatically do not share their point of view. Many of the points
raised in these attachments are irrelevant, inaccurate or misleading. They
are raised in service of preserving the status quo of entrenched interests.
These businesses perceive electric vehicles as a serious threat to their
business model and are attempting to recruit those who might be seen by you
as disinterested parties to promote their interests.

You can read both the lobbyist letter and Newell’s full response here. As
Newell told the Arizona Republic,

“It’s within their rights to make their position known. It’s unfair to
enlist people without clearly identifying who they are.”

Catedral-King did not respond to questions, but Larsen did speak with the
Arizona Republic, saying the retiree group was “not opposed to environmental
issues at all if they are fair.” He also said,

“If utilities are forced to provide infrastructure, then I pay for their
choice of cars. The government already subsidizes that industry.”

The article follows that with this fine sentence: “Larsen said he could not
comment on whether Chevron’s oil operations receive any government
subsidies.”

Court Rich, an Arizona attorney who represents renewable energy interests,
criticized the effort on Twitter:

He also characterized the move as desperate, telling the Republic:

“Ironically, I bet this is the same failed tactic that a desperate horse
and buggy lobbyist once used to try and scare the public against gas
automobiles.”

Chevron announced a partnership with EVgo just last week, as the company is
bringing EVgo’s chargers to some of its gas stations. More than a dozen EVgo
fast chargers are currently operational or under construction at various
Chevron stations in California.
Electrek’s Take

Chevron’s one hand makes a public display of installing EV chargers while
the other hand secretively urges a group of former employees to fight back
against electric cars in their own state. As we’ve noted, it’s not that
these oil companies want to embrace EV adoption. Old habits die hard — if
they ever die at all. (Astroturfing is becoming a favored technique in the
energy industry.)

These retirees really should be doing something — anything — better with
their time. Kudos to Newell for being a voice for progress and exposing this
campaign.
[© electrek.co]
...
https://google.com/search?q=speak+with+forked+tongue
forked tongue


https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/energy/2019/05/28/chevron-exec-enlists-arizona-retirees-effort-against-electric-cars/3700955002/
Chevron executive is secretly pushing 

Re: [EVDL] EPRI TVA VW electric bus

2019-05-24 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Curious, did they raise the floor to fit the battery box? You could 
probably get a 40kWh lion pack in there, if it goes all the way through 
:)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "zvwbus via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "zvwbus" 
Sent: 24-May-19 9:49:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EPRI TVA VW electric bus











--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CNET loves the 2018 Leaf Electric life> earned seal of approval

2019-05-24 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Unless I missed it, the article doesn't say anything about battery 
degradation or cold weather range. Anyone have any info on Nissan's 
current technology ?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 23-May-19 10:17:17 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: CNET loves the 2018 Leaf Electric life> earned 
seal of approval





https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-final-update-may-2019/
2018 Nissan Leaf long-term wrap-up: A year of EV life zaps by
May 22, 2019  Chris Paukert

[images  / Nick Miotke/Roadshow
https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/cPco8RkcX7hOXK7LpoOd27Ya3vw=/1600x900/2019/05/22/a89f892b-16ec-49f6-bf24-53c3858cc2ad/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-33.jpg

https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/Hjd_D0eA5PYemma72bYfYLDeS8o=/2019/05/22/96b2d011-2aa2-4138-aa42-8bcea933713f/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-ogi.jpg

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/LzzR-yZ0xY7giGunx2S8JT2cbdo=/980x551/2019/05/22/73946a8d-3854-4885-9131-e460a9a625dc/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-16.jpg
The Nissan Leaf earned our twelve-month seal of approval.
Chris Paukert/Roadshow

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/8JoZ58fIyDp4VMeXZASFX5AjIww=/980x551/2019/05/22/389f71c5-02be-4a6a-902a-686fd8f384df/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-39.jpg

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/4eUm0eTv570l5ACOUXvxL5YRAyA=/980x551/2019/05/22/f025893d-662c-43dc-96a0-b3ee007de15b/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-56.jpg

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/GY-ubniRDETXNvv5j0RmRd3fx2s=/980x551/2019/05/22/9ea4ec12-6374-40ba-9cb4-c1adb91d6552/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-40.jpg

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/FYLqsuZFoSOrL-0yWc7z96enODE=/980x551/2019/05/22/d7801a52-56be-4b57-8e0b-21128d9cc841/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-38.jpg

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/O8E9S8eLk39XgcmO-vyc0qNmPao=/980x551/2019/05/22/44c7a058-b58a-49af-9108-5bb5047bad80/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-57.jpg
2018 Nissan Leaf: Long-term EV wrap-up  59 Photos

https://cnet1.cbsistatic.com/img/dGzNrpdRfeEfV9m3_TzDvWFO2Gg=/980x551/2019/05/22/d45973fa-1252-4fc9-a8da-344d43e90394/2018-nissan-leaf-long-term-wrapup-58.jpg
2018 Nissan Leaf long-term car in winter
The Nissan Leaf's electric powertrain produces 147 horsepower and 236
pound-feet of torque. Chris Paukert/Roadshow
]

12 months and thousands of miles later, we've got a good feel for how it is
to live the electric life.

Ignore, for a moment, the environmental case for buying an electric car.  If
there's anything our year with this 2018 Nissan Leaf taught us, it's that
there are plenty of other reasons to take the EV plunge. Over the course of
thousands of miles and in all four seasons, we found many reasons to love
the life electric.

Naturally, we also uncovered a few caveats, too.
[video  flash
Watch this: Nissan Leaf long-term wrap-up: One year of electric feels  4:38
]

Our loaded-up $38,115 top-shelf SL model arrived in April of 2018,
resplendent in Deep Blue Pearl paint. While not as audacious and
controversial in appearance as its predecessor, we instantly found the
second-generation Leaf's newly familial look to be far more pleasant and
balanced, a positive impression that lasted all year.

Throughout our twelve months, thousands of kilowatt hours consumed and
nearly 8,000 miles logged in New York and Michigan, we did just about
everything you'd do with your daily driver. We commuted in the Leaf, we went
on Home Depot runs, we schlepped through deep snow, and we even made this
hatchback the official shuttle of our editor-in-chief's informal cider donut
comparison test last fall.

Throughout it all, our Nissan Leaf worked flawlessly. Without many of the
fluids to change of conventional gas cars, we didn't end up even needing to
visit the dealer. (There's a basic 7,500-mile complimentary multi-point
inspection, but we turned in our tester right as that was coming due). In
the spirit of full disclosure, a tire rotation would've normally been in
order, but we swapped out the stock 17-inch Michelin Energy Saver
all-seasons for a set of Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3 winter tires when the
weather turned foul, so our little front driver was covered there, too.

Maintenance intervals have certainly gotten fewer and farther between for
traditional internal-combustion automobiles, but battery electric vehicle
ownership promises even more infrequent  visits to the dealer, and our Leaf
delivered in spades. If you hate going to dealers, well, an EV like the Leaf
might just be your golden ticket.

Any reliability-related frustrations with our Leaf came not from our test
car, but from the charging network we plugged into. While our EIC and Yours
Truly both have Level 2 charging docks in our home garages, we did
experience an infrastructural headache when a pay-for-juice Greenlots quick
charger failed to work during a snowy drive home when we initially delivery
of the car last April. "Clearly Nissan bears no fault there, but I present
this story as an example of the 

Re: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile

2019-05-22 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
You may be right, though you aren't taking into account the other 
factors, most importantly the long term maintenance.


However, I think the bigger factor is the amount of time you need to 
spend charging on a long road trip. If you only drive 200 or so miles a 
day, no problem. You can charge at night. But if you are like most 
people and drive 500+, you'll need at least two charging stops, which 
will add a few hours to your travel. You might be able to combine that 
with meal stops or point of interest stops, but I don't think the 
infrastructure is that opportune yet.


In the future, when we have faster charging and competition on kWh 
pricing, I hope we'll be on the other side of the inflection point.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
Sent: 22-May-19 7:06:20 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Road Trips: plugin vs EV cost per mile


Hi folks
It seems that it's cheaper for taking long road trips to buy a Prius Prime vs a 
pricier Tesla or Bolt with a 60kwh battery pack and pay an average of 28c per 
kWh average on the road at level 3 fast charging stations.  We have shorter 
range cheaper EVs (Spark bought 1 year old for $14k and Leaf $9.2k). At $3 a 
gallon/50 = 6c per mile and at 28c per kWh / 4 (ac meas)= 7c per mile in a long 
range EV (also have to pay $40k for the car with the 60kwh or so battery pack). 
Maybe it's better for the environment to drive a long range EV but for your 
wallet the Prius Prime and a shorter range EV for 90% miles local trips makes 
more sense.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
Www.Reevadiy.org

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 in North America.

2019-05-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Do you have a suggestion on how to contact them? I found their customer 
support form, but it won't submit because there isn't a nissan dealer in 
Seattle. Also it's limited to 300 chars which doesn't allow saying much.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Peri Hartman" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 18-May-19 7:34:06 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 
in North America.


This is pretty close to something I would buy. I see it's available for 
37100 euro in france, where it probably could be purchased and brought 
to the US (I know this once was possible).


https://www.nissan.fr/vehicules/neufs/env200-evalia.html

Some people will balk at this, but my limiting factor is I need more 
range - about 250 miles. I would like to own just one vehicle that I 
can take hiking, skiing, and haul building materials, etc. These are 
activities where it is not practical to rent a vehicle. Otherwise I 
would need two vehicles, one for hauling things locally and one for 
longer distances. But even with two vehicles, there isn't currently 
anything affordable that will go 250 miles on a charge and have enough 
ground clearance for forest service roads (can the Bolt suspension be 
modified without compromising range?). The e-nv200 would work really 
well, I think.


I'll let them know.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 17-May-19 1:40:21 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 in 
North America.



800.647.7261 option 7.  This is where you can call Monday through Friday to 
lodge any kind of complaint.  While the e-NV200 is on the website and in Europe 
it is not for N. America.
https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/future-concept/e-nv200-zero-emissions-small-van.html
 Here it is but not available. Such a shame.
This is the link where you can see the concept. If you complain formally to 
Nissan maybe they will bring this useful vehicle to our shores.  Lawrence Rhodes




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Re: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 in North America.

2019-05-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
This is pretty close to something I would buy. I see it's available for 
37100 euro in france, where it probably could be purchased and brought 
to the US (I know this once was possible).


https://www.nissan.fr/vehicules/neufs/env200-evalia.html

Some people will balk at this, but my limiting factor is I need more 
range - about 250 miles. I would like to own just one vehicle that I can 
take hiking, skiing, and haul building materials, etc. These are 
activities where it is not practical to rent a vehicle. Otherwise I 
would need two vehicles, one for hauling things locally and one for 
longer distances. But even with two vehicles, there isn't currently 
anything affordable that will go 250 miles on a charge and have enough 
ground clearance for forest service roads (can the Bolt suspension be 
modified without compromising range?). The e-nv200 would work really 
well, I think.


I'll let them know.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 17-May-19 1:40:21 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Formally complain to Nissan If you want an e-NV200 in 
North America.



800.647.7261 option 7.  This is where you can call Monday through Friday to 
lodge any kind of complaint.  While the e-NV200 is on the website and in Europe 
it is not for N. America.
https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/future-concept/e-nv200-zero-emissions-small-van.html
 Here it is but not available. Such a shame.
This is the link where you can see the concept. If you complain formally to 
Nissan maybe they will bring this useful vehicle to our shores.  Lawrence Rhodes




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[EVDL] Seattle new buildings EV ready

2019-05-03 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Fromhttps://durkan.seattle.gov/?wysija-page=1PeriThis week, the Seattle City 
Council passed Mayor Durkan’s legislation requiring all new buildings in 
Seattle that include off-street parking – like a parking garage – have the 
necessary infrastructure to support electric vehicle (EV) charging stations. 
This builds on the Washington State Legislature’s newly-passed budget, which 
includes legislation, HB 1512, that provides utilities like Seattle City Light 
the ability to invest in the electrification of transportation 
infrastructure.The new measures will require that every individual residence 
with private parking includes an EV-ready space. For multifamily development 
with shared parking facilities, at least 20 percent of the spaces will be 
EV-ready. Parking facilities for non-residential uses will include a minimum of 
10 percent of EV-ready spaces. The electric vehicle requirements are flexible 
in instances where meeting the required amount of EV paces would require 
upgrades to the utility infrastructure.Read the Mayor’s statement here.
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Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE % (goog-pr)

2019-05-01 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Presumably you tried fr.chargemap.com, not chargemap.comI saw several 
references to it, leading me to believe it's popular.I also found this 
one:www.bornes-recharge.netI have no idea if it's better.Peri-- Original 
message--From: EVDL Administrator via EVDate: Wed, May 1, 2019 17:47To: 
Electric Vehicle Discussion List;Cc: EVDL Administrator;Subject:Re: [EVDL] % 
Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE % (goog-pr)On 30 Apr 2019 at 
4:16, David Nelson via EV wrote:

> Plugshare.com lists stations in Europe. Maybe someone who has been to France
> can comment on the reliability of it.

Thanks for the reference, but that's actually why I posted that question.  I 
tried Plugshare.  In the particular small French city I checked, which I 
know has at least 5 public EVSEs (at least 3 of them free), Plugshare 
identifies only one.  

I found somewhat better results at chargemap.com.  Oddly, its search gadget 
couldn't find the city I was interested in, but with a bunch of clicking, 
zooming, and scrolling, I was able to find it on the map.  (Having to do all 
that on a mobile phone's itty-bitty screen and mouseless UI would kind of 
suck.)  Chargemap then spotted 4 of the 5 EVSEs.  

Unfortunately, before they'll tell me anything about those EVSEs, Chargemap 
want me to sign up so they can email me spam, and I'm not going to do that 
just now.

I also tried plugsurfing.com, but they didn't find ANYTHING.  They seem more 
focused on higher power, expensive autoroute EVSEs where they presumably get 
a nice big fat cut of the profits.

So I was just wondering if any of our EU correspondents had a better idea.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: magnix.aero EV converting harbourair.com seaplanes

2019-03-30 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Thanks for posting, Bruce. This is exciting for everyone in the EV 
domain and aviation. And it's especially encouraging for those of us 
directly affected by these daily flights.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 30-Mar-19 2:00:43 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: magnix.aero EV converting harbourair.com seaplanes




https://www.electricvehiclesresearch.com/articles/16876/harbour-air-and-magnix-to-build-worlds-first-all-electric-airline
Harbour Air and magniX to build world's first all electric airline
2019-03-27

[image  / Harbour Air
https://idtxs3.imgix.net/si/4/31/14.jpg
]

magniX and Harbour Air, North America's largest seaplane airline, have
announced a partnership to transform Harbour Air seaplanes into an
all-electric commercial fleet powered by the magni500, a 750 horsepower (HP)
all-electric motor. For more information see the IDTechEx report on Manned
Electric Aircraft 2018-2028.

Operating 12 routes between hubs like Seattle and Vancouver and across the
pristine natural wilderness of the Pacific Northwest, Harbour Air welcomes
more than 500,000 passengers on 30,000 commercial flights each year. Through
this partnership, both companies are furthering the vision to someday
connect communities with clean, efficient and affordable electric air
travel.

"Harbour Air first demonstrated its commitment to sustainability by becoming
the first fully carbon-neutral airline in North America in 2007, through the
purchase of carbon offsets," said Greg McDougall, founder and CEO of Harbour
Air Seaplanes. "Through our commitment to making a positive impact on
people's lives, the communities where we operate and the environment, we are
once again pushing the boundaries of aviation by becoming the first aircraft
to be powered by electric propulsion. We are excited to bring commercial
electric aviation to the Pacific Northwest, turning our seaplanes into
ePlanes."

The aviation industry currently contributes 12 percent of all U.S. carbon
emissions and 4.9 percent globally, all while providing few low-cost,
fuel-efficient options for passenger flights under 1,000 miles. By modifying
existing Harbour Air planes with innovative, all-electric magniX propulsion
systems, the partnership will create the world's first completely electric
commercial seaplane fleet. A Harbour Air ePlane will have zero reliance on
fossil fuels and produce zero emissions - a significant step forward in the
innovation and advancement of the airline industry.

"In 2018, 75 percent of worldwide airline flights were 1,000 miles or less
in range. With magniX's new propulsion systems coupled with emerging battery
capabilities, we see tremendous potential for electric aviation to transform
this heavily trafficked 'middle mile' range," said Roei Ganzarski, CEO of
magniX. "We're excited to partner with Harbour Air, a forward thinking,
like-minded company that is dedicated to bringing environmentally conscious,
cost effective air-transport solutions to the West Coast of North America.
This partnership will set the standard for the future of commercial aviation
operators."

The first aircraft to be converted will be the DHC-2 de Havilland Beaver, a
six-passenger commercial aircraft used across Harbour Air's route network.
Harbour Air and magniX expect to conduct first flight tests of the
all-electric aircraft in late 2019.

This partnership follows significant milestones for both companies,
including the successful testing of magniX's 350 HP all-electric motor and
the addition of a Vancouver to Seattle route in Harbour Air's destination
roster.

Learn more at the next leading event on the topic: Electric Vehicles:
Everything is Changing Europe 2019 External Link on 10 - 11 Apr 2019 at
Estrel Convention Center, Berlin, Germany hosted by IDTechEx ...
[© electricvehiclesresearch.com]


https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/aerospace/aviation/first-passenger-electric-aircraft-to-take-off-soon
First Passenger Electric Aircraft to Take Off Soon
26 Mar 2019   In about a decade, Elon Musk’s crazy pipe dream of building an
all-electric car became the Tesla Model 3, the best-selling electric car in
the world in 2018. Now every major carmaker is working ...
https://spectrum.ieee.org/image/MzI2MDMzMg.jpeg


+
https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/solar-car-parks-across-scotland-to-charge-electric-vehicles-1-4896311
Solar car parks across Scotland to charge electric vehicles
27 March 2019  Solar car parks across Scotland to charge electric vehicles
... The team believes managed integration of solar PV, electric vehicle
charging ...
https://images-e.jpimedia.uk/imagefetch/w_700,f_auto,ar_3:2,q_auto:low,c_fill/if_h_lte_200,c_mfit,h_201/https://www.scotsman.com/webimage/1.4883283.1553633592!/image/image.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/

Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

2019-03-10 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
At this point in their venture, it seems online sales will be fine. 
After all, they have back orders they are struggling to meet, even for 
the S, I think.


However, at some point when they have real competition and their 
production has caught up, they may want to change their mind. Buying 
cars, while not an impulse purchase, certainly relies on touchy-feely 
appeal. Once a buyer sees a car, and a good sales person realizes the 
"connection", there's a process you can't replicate online.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 10-Mar-19 5:18:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only




On 3/9/19 2:12 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I think that Musk was smoking something.

Personally, I would NEVER buy a car without driving it (or at least sit in) 
first. The only exception would be for brand new clean technology vehicles that 
I *knew* I wanted - think EV1, RAV-4 EV,  Civic GX, Tesla Roadster, Toyota 
Mirai, Honda Clarity, etc.


That sounds similar to Koch FUD.  It is hard for me to believe that you are not 
familiar with Tesla's path to success and their accomplishments. You know no 
Tesla owners?

You ignore several factors, including the bullet proof guarantee Peter 
describes.  Also, that Tesla has quite successfully already proven a dealer 
network unnecessary.  Many states, including mine, prohibit manufacturer owned 
dealerships; in those states, all sales have been and continue to be online. 
With that experience, Tesla is well aware of the value, or lack of value, of 
dealers.  As you should know, Tesla has recruited owners to serve as a sales 
force.  For the most part, owners are quite willing to serve without 
compensation though in the past they have received some compensation.

Personal experience:  My first Tesla arrived in front of my house in 2013 on a car 
transporter.  I had never before SEEN a Tesla, much less driven one.  I was not 
disappointed.  Indeed, I was thrilled and never regretted the purchase.  I believe we 
ordered our Leaf in 2010 and took delivery in 2011.  Sometime after the reservation, we 
we offered a pre-purchase test drive in a demo but did not find the schedule convenient.  
Our first Leaf drive was in our own.  At the time we were not disappointed.  Again, 
"thrilled" would be a good descriptor.  Coming from a 150+ mile conversion with 
an amp-hour counter, I WAS disappointed in the sorry Leaf instrumentation.  But, that was 
not a deal breaker. It was two years before I discovered that Nissan had so screwed Leaf 
buyers with a miserable short lived battery which they refused to support.




But I’m an air quality guy, and an early adopter of these technologies.


Which adds to my surprise that you are so Tesla unaware.
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[EVDL] tesla to close stores, sell online only

2019-03-01 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Is Musk right - people are comfortable buying online?
Peri

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-to-close-stores-take-orders-for-a-35000-model-3/

Tesla will sell its electric cars only online as it accelerates its cost 
cutting so it can realize its long-running goal of selling a mass-market 
sedan for $35,000.

...
To save money, Tesla will close many of its stores, but leave some open 
as galleries or “information centers” in high-traffic areas.

...
The online sales shift will enable Tesla to lower all vehicle prices by 
6 percent, on average, including its higher-end Model S and Model X.

...
Although he said going online-only was a difficult decision, Musk said 
he believes it’s the right one. “It’s 2019,” he said. “People want to 
buy things online.”

...
Although Musk said he didn’t know for certain, he predicted there’s 
enough pent-up demand to sell about 500,000 Model 3s annually at the 
starting price of $35,000.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge (v)

2019-02-22 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think what the article glossed over is that supercaps have poor energy 
density. They have excellent power, however, and the author might have 
mixed up the terms, I don't remember. Whether it will be possible to 
make a high density supercap is yet to be seen.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Alan Arrison via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Alan Arrison" 
Sent: 22-Feb-19 6:17:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercap, ultracap, Goldcap> take the plunge 
(v)




Could  Ultracapacitors Replace Batteries In Future Electric Vehicles?

The answer is no, no matter how much hype there is.





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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-17 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
That's a scary thought. I don't see it happening though. And I think the 
reason lies in the balance between home charging and public EVSE 
charging. As long as there are enough people home charging, they won't 
be complacent to demands by power company lawyers.


But I think there will also be a significant number - maybe 50% - of 
people who will use public EVSEs. These would include people taking road 
trips or extra long day excursions. But also includes people who cannot 
charge at home. More and more people are moving from farm to suburbs and 
from suburbs to cities. Many live in places without dedicated parking or 
any private parking at all. If they own a car, they will use public 
charging. Also, as ride sharing (through companies like uber or car2go) 
increases, so will the need for fast charging at public EVSEs. I 
maintain that there will be significant demand.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 17-Feb-19 11:20:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Oil  buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil 
buy-in



Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

If I know I can always charge at home, I will not twiddle my thumbs at a 20
minute FILLUP convenience store, but will only putin 5 minutes of charge to
get home and fill up there.


Ah, but you underestimate the power of lawyers, laws, and money.

What if they pass laws that make it illegal to charge your EV at home, because it's 
"dangerous"? After all, some states do not allow you to pump your own gas, supposedly for 
"safety" reasons.

What if the power companies rig things so they "own" the electricity in your EV's 
battery, so they can take it back for P2G to handle peak demands on the grid? Since they 
"own" it, they can control when and where it can be put in or taken back out.

What if EVs are only provided with special patented licensed charging 
connectors, which cannot be sold for installation in private dwellings?

The oil companies are only getting involved in EV charging to make money. 
Restricting access to increase prices is bound to be a part of their plan.

-- Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Oil buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil buy-in

2019-02-17 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
It's kind of disgusting but I think it's a good sign. Better to have 
them come on board rather than fight. Further, even if the current 
startups in the renewable energy business thrive and grow on their own, 
they probably won't end up being altruistic when they become dominant 
players. Different names on the doors, same mentality.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "SLPinfo.org via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "SLPinfo.org" 
Sent: 17-Feb-19 8:47:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Oil  buying up EVSE.net charging> fossil 
buy-in



This is not unlike the tobacco companies buying up food companies back in
the 1980s.  They're planning ahead for diversifing their business model.

Peter Flipsen
Carlton, Oregon

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019, 11:25 PM brucedp5 via EV 



 
https://qz.com/1542499/oil-companies-and-utilities-are-buying-up-all-the-electric-car-charging-startups/
 Oil companies and utilities are buying up all the electric car charging
 startups
 February 5, 2019  Michael J. Coren

 For decades, oil and gas companies and utilities dismissed electric cars.
 Now, the old petroleum and power giants are muscling into the driver’s seat
 of the “new fuels” industry.

 It’s projected to be a big business. McKinsey counts more than 350 new
 electric vehicle (EV) models debuting by 2025, one of the conditions for
 mass-market adoption. Global demand for gasoline is set to peak around 2021
 thanks to electric vehicles (EVs) and fuel efficiency gains. The energy
 research and consultancy Wood Mackenzie predicts  charging infrastructure
 investment in the US will exceed $18 billion annually by 2030 for
 equipment,
 installation, operations, and services. China is expected to have three
 times more energy demand from EVs by then.

 Now, fossil fuel incumbents want in. They’re investing heavily or outright
 acquiring electrical infrastructure needed to supply the millions of
 electric vehicles (EVs) expected in the next few years. Although just 2.2%
 of the world’s vehicles are electric, a record 2 million or so EVs were
 sold
 last year amid exponential growth.

 While the numbers aren’t huge yet—for example, Shell’s $1 billion in
 renewable energy and EV investments amounts amounts to just 4% of its
 annual
 capital expenditures—they’re growing fast. Globally, $334 billion was
 invested in global clean energy in 2017, reports BNEF (pdf)

 Public charging infrastructure is ramping up almost everywhere, and each
 region has its own unique mix of players, says Bloomberg New Energy Finance
 (BNEF). In Europe, 79% of the public charging infrastructure is operated by
 utilities and oil companies. In the US, 62% of the market is managed by
 pure-play EV operators. In China, equipment manufacturers control the
 majority.

 So far, European firms are making the biggest moves. The most recent move
 was Royal Dutch Shell’s purchase of Greenlots, a startup offering software
 and services for EV charging networks. The British-Dutch oil giant says it
 will use Greenlot’s technology, which combines software to optimize battery
 charging and grid balancing services in one charging platform, to build the
 “foundation” of its EV business in North America. The company is pouring
 about $1 billion a year into such deals, according to BNEF, including the
 acquisition of 30,000 charging stations in Western Europe, as well as a $31
 million investment into EV charging startup Ample in 2018.

 Last year, France’s Total closed a deal for G2mobility, which offers EV
 charging solutions, as well as a $1.7 billion deal for Direct Energie,
 making it a major electricity retailer in France as well. Ultimately,
 Reuters reports, Total wants to grow its “low-carbon energy assets” from 5%
 of the total today to 20% by 2035. Most of Europe’s biggest oil firms now
 have a hand in renewable energy, power trading, energy storage, retail
 electricity sales, grid management, or EV charging.

 “In Europe, the line between utilities and oil and gas companies is getting
 a bit blurry,” said Colin McKerracher of BNEF at its summit in San
 Francisco
 on Feb. 4. “The oil and gas companies in Europe see where this stuff is
 going and want to ensure they are not missing out on it. … It’s not just a
 downside hedge.”

 The US is a different story. Companies like Chevron and ExxonMobil are just
 starting to edge into utilities’ traditional territory. Last year, Chevron
 participated in a $240 million round for ChargePoint, a network of
 independently owned charging spots, valued at $1.5 billion, according to
 Pitchbook.  The utility American Electric Power and German automaker
 Daimler
 invested alongside the oil giant.

 Most active are US utilities, with many partnering directly with car
 companies. Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, San Diego
 Gas & Electric, and New Jersey’s PSE have partnered with carmakers to
 offer thousands of dollars in rebates for BMW, Nissan, and other brands.
 California’s Pacific Gas & Electric, 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (spied) weird-looking Golf (ID) Sportsvan EV r:500km

2019-02-04 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Wow, this looks very practical. Seems to have good ground clearance and 
a fair amount of cargo space. I am interested to see where this will be 
sold and for what price.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 03-Feb-19 6:37:48 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: (spied) weird-looking Golf (ID) Sportsvan EV 
r:500km





https://www.carscoops.com/2019/01/electric-vw-hiding-golf-sportsvan-mule/
An Electric VW Is Hiding Under This Golf Sportsvan Mule
January 30, 2019  Michael Karkafiris

[images  / S. Baldauf/SB-Medien for CarScoops
https://images.carscoops.com/2019/01/e9f80c36-vw-ev-golf-sportsvan-00.jpg

https://images.carscoops.com/2019/01/f04c046a-vw-ev-golf-sportsvan-09-768x512.jpg

https://images.carscoops.com/2019/01/3b84e292-vw-ev-golf-sportsvan-03-768x512.jpg

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/01/electric-vw-hiding-golf-sportsvan-mule/#lg=1=8
PHOTO GALLERY
]

VW was caught testing a weird-looking Golf Sportsvan, which is the German
automaker’s way of developing one of its upcoming battery-electric ID models
without attracting too much attention.

The tall body of the Golf Sportsvan does a pretty good job at hiding the
true nature of the pictured test car, but if you look closely, you’ll notice
things like the slightly different front end, the fatter side sills and of
course the complete lack of any exhaust tips.

With VW planning to introduce a pair of compact electric SUVs inspired by
the ID Crozz concept, this test mule right here might just be the first
real-world sighting of the 2020 ID-badged crossovers.

Volkswagen is set to use a dedicated architecture for all of its upcoming
battery electric vehicles, the MEB modular platform. The skateboard-like
underpinnings will feature the battery pack mounted within the floorpan for
the lowest possible weight center and better road-holding.

The first MEB-based model to reach production will be the yet-unnamed ID
hatchback, which is set for a launch late this year, offering different
battery capacity options and a starting price similar to that of a
diesel-powered Golf.

While the upcoming ID hatchback will employ a rear-mounted electric motor
and rear-wheel drive for more efficient packaging, VW’s upcoming electric
SUVs will feature two electric motors, one mounted on each axle, making them
all-wheel drive and adding more performance into the mix. The ID Crozz
concept came with a combined 301hp and a driving range of up to 310 miles
(500km).

Prepare to see more of these electric VW test cars in the coming months, as
the German automaker has promised to essentially flood the market with
zero-emissions models by the end of 2022, with no less than 27 MEB-based
vehicles currently being in the pipeline.
[© carscoops.com]


+
https://europe.autonews.com/suppliers/bosch-buys-out-daimlers-stake-electric-motor-jv
Bosch buys out Daimler's stake in electric motor JV
January 24, 2019  FRANKFURT -- Robert Bosch says it has bought out partner
Daimler's stake in EM-Motive, a joint venture set up to make motors ...
https://s3-prod-europe.autonews.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/Bosch%20electric%20motors%20web.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted posts) EVcrash: ...

2019-01-25 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I'll speak up in support of Bruce. The fact that this junk is showing up 
in the media *is* the filter. What I mean is the media believes people 
are generally interested in knowing about EV fires, crashes, etc. even 
though "we" consider them irrelevant. Given that premise, this is 
relevant news.


Let me put this another way. No one wants to hear about a ICE car fire 
unless something associated with it is unusual. However, most people 
know little about EVs and every bit of info is relevant until people get 
used to them. An EV caught fire. Why? Could it happen to me? What are my 
chances of survival? Once the public sees that EV fires don't cause 
deaths at a higher rate than ICE fires, they'll understand that aspect 
and no longer be interested. Hopefully, we'll also find that EV fires 
are statistically more rare than ICE fires. Given improving battery 
technology, I think that will be the case.


Remember, Bruce is posting not just for us but for an archive of the 
history and evolutions of EVs. While "we" may not be interested in every 
EV fire, rollover, runaway acceleration, or whatever, this could be 
useful when looking back, from the future. One could measure trends and 
see the sociological process to EV acceptance. I think Bruce is doing a 
fantastic job.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" ; "brucedp5" 


Sent: 25-Jan-19 6:10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted 
posts) EVcrash: ...



I really hope that you won’t get defensive, but take the comments as 
constructive suggestions.

As you yourself point out, these crashes now seem to be nothing more than some 
idiot doing something stupid. The value of those posts no longer exists.

I personally find many of your posts interesting, and sometimes of such 
importance that it actually gets sent to and is read by those making policy and 
spending decisions on EVs - particularly those I advise.

But your filter on what gets sent out should change with the times, and the 
facts. Just a suggestion. But if it doesn’t, some may find the signal to noise 
ratio dropping too low for their tastes. That would be unfortunate.

My $.02.

I always know that I can just use the delete key.

- Mark


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[EVDL] freeway ESVEs

2019-01-20 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Hi Seth,

I found your name on the WSDOT sustainable transportation web page. I 
hope you are the right person to receive my suggestion regarding ESVEs.


As I'm sure you would agree, we need more high power ESVEs along our 
freeway corridors, if we ever want EVs to become useful for long range 
travel. Expecting private enterprise to provide them has been lackluster 
due to the currently low demand and the high installation costs.


On the other hand, using taxpayer money to provide high power ESVEs has 
only received moderate public support. Often, we end up with a 
compromise of medium power ESVEs and not enough of them to be reliable 
for someone travelling.


With 60-80 kWh batteries becoming common in new EVs and 100+ kWh not too 
far off, we need to be providing for the future: 200kW or better ESVEs 
so that 80% charges can happen in at most 30 minutes at most. Putting in 
50kW ESVEs is a complete waste of taxpayer money - obsolete when 
installed.


My suggestion is to start a public-private partnership. Here's how it 
would work. This is based off the French autoroute system, where service 
areas are provided every so many kilometers comprised of fueling, 
convenience stores, eating places, and more. I don't know the details, 
but the service operations are leased out to the various vendors and 
privately operated. As well, these areas work much like our rest areas. 
There are dedicated ramps which go nowhere except the service area and 
it is easy to exit the autoroute, do what you need, and get back on. No 
stoplights, no hunting for the right services. In a word, quick.


In our case, we could adopt a similar model. Expand the usage of our 
rest areas to include leased out services - food, other shopping, etc. - 
and add new rest areas so that there is some maximum distance between 
them. Loan state funds to selected vendors to install several 200kWh 
ESVEs at each rest area. As part of the the vendor agreement, their 
lease includes fees to cover the amortized cost of installing the ESVEs. 
(I think they would be willing to pay a premium; after all, they have a 
captive customer base.) After some years, that would result in a net 
zero cost to the state.


We need to do something. The current track is providing mediocre results 
and is costing a lot. I realize that there are potential legal issues 
with this idea such as change of use of rest areas, lending of state 
money, arranging public-private partnerships, cost of constructing new 
rest areas. Could it work, though? Has this already been proposed? Would 
the public provide a higher level of support for this?


Thanks for your attention.
Peri Hartman

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Re: [EVDL] Further evidence

2019-01-20 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Nice, but not the same. When you bring in the rest of the services, you 
provide a way to provide ESVEs net zero regarding government funds. That 
would likely bring much higher public support. And, of course, you have 
more options while you are waiting for a charge.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 20-Jan-19 6:36:38 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Further evidence


You may see this in California rest areas (just the EVSEs). There have been 
behind the scenes discussions about this.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Jan 19, 2019, at 5:56 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 In US urban areas, I don't know. But along US freeways, I'd like to see 
something similar to what France did.

 Every so many kilometers, there's a services stop. It's much like our US rest 
areas except it has fueling servcies, convenience store(s) and usually some 
food service choices. I believe these are contracted out to vendors, not 
provided by the autoroute operator.

 In the case of US freeways, what if we did something similar where the state 
funded a bank of ESVEs (at high kW) at various rest stops and worked out a 
payback from contracting service operators (food, etc.). Cost up front to the 
state would be significant but, after some years, the cost would be zero.

 By the way, these autoroute service areas are really convenient. Rather than 
exit at some interchange, sit at various stop lights, and hunt around for the 
services you want, you simply take the exit and park. Really easy. Then you zip 
back on your way.

 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Willie via EV" 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Cc: "Willie" 
 Sent: 19-Jan-19 5:22:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Further evidence





 On 1/19/19 2:35 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 Should that infrastructure be the responsibility of the OEMs, of the growing 
charging industry, government, or...?


 I would say that whatever companies/entities that want BEVs to succeed would assume the 
responsibility.  That is clearly not most auto manufacturers.  OR most players in the 
"charging industry".  ONE stands out and, single handedly, is responsible for 
the success of BEVs.

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Re: [EVDL] Further evidence

2019-01-19 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
In US urban areas, I don't know. But along US freeways, I'd like to see 
something similar to what France did.


Every so many kilometers, there's a services stop. It's much like our US 
rest areas except it has fueling servcies, convenience store(s) and 
usually some food service choices. I believe these are contracted out to 
vendors, not provided by the autoroute operator.


In the case of US freeways, what if we did something similar where the 
state funded a bank of ESVEs (at high kW) at various rest stops and 
worked out a payback from contracting service operators (food, etc.). 
Cost up front to the state would be significant but, after some years, 
the cost would be zero.


By the way, these autoroute service areas are really convenient. Rather 
than exit at some interchange, sit at various stop lights, and hunt 
around for the services you want, you simply take the exit and park. 
Really easy. Then you zip back on your way.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 19-Jan-19 5:22:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Further evidence




On 1/19/19 2:35 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Should that infrastructure be the responsibility of the OEMs, of the growing 
charging industry, government, or...?


I would say that whatever companies/entities that want BEVs to succeed would assume the 
responsibility.  That is clearly not most auto manufacturers.  OR most players in the 
"charging industry".  ONE stands out and, single handedly, is responsible for 
the success of BEVs.

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Re: [EVDL] EVangel-about: segs4vets.ngo converts-Segways 4disabled veterans

2019-01-19 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Very cool. I can imagine that having 2 wheels instead of 4 greatly 
simplifies maneuvering and stability on bad surfaces. And I bet it's 
possible to design something that can climb stairs.


Kudos to you, Bruce, for all the efforts you go through. Keep up the 
great EV work !


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 19-Jan-19 3:02:19 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVangel-about: segs4vets.ngo converts-Segways 4disabled 
veterans




% Yesterday I had another VA Hospital appointment. I arrived a little early
as used my (issued) rollator/walker to head in from the crowded parking lot
to the main entrance. This day's experience had far less (old) vets roaming
the corridors/hallways in (issued) e-mobility scooters.

{I'm trying to postpone having to use a e-mobility cart as long as I can,
but I know it is in my future as each step is large amount of arthritic
pain. But as I push through the pain (not unlike a young man feeling an
exercise-burn of trying to build his muscles/to get the girl, etc.), each
time I see a vet that has to use an e-mobility aid from a lost limb, I
persevere harder to use the body I was given as long as I can.}


After my (cardio-echo scan) appointment, and I was heading out of the VA
hospital, I saw what looked like a self-balancing wheel-chair (but with
Segway size and style wheels), being used by a young vet [
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/6bc0c4_90f74eabec7540bdac9e4e8b9fecb798.jpg
].  It looked like he and the chair were in tune with each other (like it
was now a part of his body), as he controlled it quite well.

I was lucky enough to catch up with Guillermo Tejada (GySgt. USMC Ret.,
Warrior Board Member) [
https://www.segs4vets.ngo/leadership?lightbox=i6f2u
]. He let me know he worked with an organization/group [
https://segs4vets.ngo
] that converts/modifies Segways for Veteran's use.

Looking at their website, veterans with service related
injuries/disabilities (from difficulty walking, to dysfunctional or missing
lower limbs, +more) [
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/6bc0c4_ba5f8d1180c046b6a26ceedbfc6946ca~mv2_d_4805_3203_s_4_2.jpg

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/6bc0c4_5e540896b8ef47d7843f650006735349~mv2_d_5760_3840_s_4_2.jpg
] use these converted/ modified Segways as their e-mobility.

Below I have several links to explore relating to segs4vets.ngo efforts as
well as past Segway newswires.
%


[dated]
https://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/segs4vegs-reaches-horse-racing-assist-disabled-riders/
Segs4Vets Reaches Out To Horse Racing To Assist Disabled Riders
08.15.2017  Ray Paulick

[images
https://www.paulickreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Segs4Vets-Anne-Von-Rosen.jpg
Jockey Anne Von Rosen, with U.S. military veterans during a winner's circle
ceremony at Del Mar

https://www.paulickreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Anne-Von-Rosen-Stacy-Campo.jpg
Anne Von Rosen, with Stacy Campo, Zach Reeves of Segs4Vets and her dog Lily
]

Anne Von Rosen has a new ride, but she'd rather it be on a horse.

Her legs paralyzed in a March 11, 2014, spill at Turf Paradise in Phoenix,
Ariz., Von Rosen was in Del Mar, Calif., last week to receive a retrofitted
Segway personal transporter from the parent company of Segs4Vets [
https://www.segs4vets.ngo/
], an all-volunteer, non-profit organization that has provided more than
1,600 Segways to assist men and women in the U.S. military who returned home
with severe wounds suffered during their service in Iraq and Afghanistan.

“It's pretty cool because you have your hands free,” Von Rosen said of the
ALLY chair, which is built on a Segway frame and allows the user to go
forward or backwards by using their core – leaning in the direction they
want to go. A stick serves as a steering device.

“But I'm not going to sit in a wheelchair the rest of my life,” Rosen said
with conviction. “I'm going to walk again.”

Von Rosen was accompanied to Del Mar by her friend, trainer Stacy Campo, and
her faithful canine companion, Lily, who seemed to enjoy riding on Von
Rosen's lap as she moved around on the ALLY chair during a training session
given by Segs4Vets volunteers.

A native of Germany, Von Rosen was chosen to be the first disabled jockey
recipient of an ALLY chair through discussions with the Permanently Disabled
Jockeys Fund and Jockeys' Guild. The chair was purchased thanks to donations
of horsemen at Del Mar racetrack.

Segway ALLY chairs are not cheap, costing approximately $15,000 each.
Segs4Vets is part of DRAFT (Disability Rights Advocates for Technology) and
began in 2005 as a grassroots effort to provide seriously wounded service
men and women every resource available to become as independent as possible.
Every dollar donated to Segs4Vets goes toward getting a disabled veteran
into a Segway or ALLY chair, the latter of which was developed in 2014 for
those veterans who could not use a standing Segway.

At Del Mar on Saturday, two wounded veterans were given ALLY 

Re: [EVDL] Using EV to demo emergency power

2019-01-18 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
That's a really cool demonstration. Especially showing the you dinged 
your range by such a relatively small amount. That should help increase 
the awareness for people who rent portable generators for festivals and 
other off grid locations. Just bring your EV instead :)

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 18-Jan-19 7:28:34 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Using EV to demo emergency power


Using your EV to demo Emergency Power.

I powered last night's Climate Stewards Annapolis Monthly Meeting from my
EV.

I rigged my VOLT right out front on the sidewalk with yellow lights
blinking, and then an extension cord coming out of my trunk and
conspicuously run through the front door and plugged into the first outlet.

I had visited the day before, and moved that outlet's wire at the circuit
breaker over onto the same circuit as the meeting room's lights.  This way
the lights and that outlet were on the same circuit.  So All I had to do on
meeting night was flip that breaker off (and tag it out) and then backfeed
the outlet.

Then without detracting from the other speakers and the agenda for the
meeting, I was able to include the following summary in my 30 second
intro:

"Although our building is solar powered and we now have ten EV charging
outlets in the parking lot, a few people ask about emergency power when the
grid goes down.  So tonight I am demonstrating the powering of this building
from the Volt parked outside.  Total cost is about a $200 common inverter
hooked to the Volt's battery.  At the average American 1kW load, the EV
should be able to power the house for about an hour and only use up about 5
miles range.  And for long term outages, I can just plug the Volt into the
solar panels "secure power" outlet and charge it during the day and so on
indefinitely while the grid is down".

Turns out, I used up about 15 miles of range in 2.5 hours.  Because I
overlooked the typical system overhead of the Volt which should have been
about 1 mile per hour.

But I did discover the no-driver-timeout to be about 2 hours.  Right at the
end of the meeting, as people were rising to leave, the lights went out. The
volt had just turned itself off.  A quick run to the car to push the power
button again was all that was needed.

Anyway, the main meeting rooms fluorescent load was on the order of 1 kW,
just at the limit of my 1 kW inverter.  But when we replace them all with
LED's that will be down to about 500W and then I can combine that with the
lobby LED light circuit and have all those most important lights on one
circuit and one outlet for future emergency operation.

I have been to Home Depot now 6 times and bought three different types of
tube bulbs, but stil have not found ANY that will work. With or without
ballast.  Though I was only buying their cheapest.  Next, Ill go get the box
of NO BALLAST bulbs and that should work.

Oh, the room has 3 different light circuits, so there was always backup.
I was powering the main cove lighting.  Then there are accent lights around
the walls and dome lights way u p in the ceiling. We left the accent lights
on the grid so that I wouldn't leave them completely in the dark if my
system failed.  And we leave them on anyway even during movies...  So,  I
got to score additional visibility each time the speaker went from talking,
to her three different movie clips by jumping up each time and going to the
light switch to turn off the lights and comment "just saving some more
miles"...  The audience really got into it...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Watt-if: Remote L3 recharging service (Can this be provided?)

2019-01-15 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I've always thought a dump charge would be appropriate for this 
situation. All you really need is enough kWh to get the vehicle to a 
nearby charging station. There are exceptions, of course, but we're 
probably talking about less than 5 miles in general.


So, even something as small as 10kWh mounted in a small van or flatbed 
(EV, of course) would do the trick. As long as the service vehicle pack 
stayed between 20%-80% charge, it should be able sustain high currents, 
right?


Since we don't have AVs yet, time is premium. Get the job done in 5 
minutes and the customer's happy and the boss is happy.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 15-Jan-19 6:33:20 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Watt-if: Remote L3 recharging service (Can this be 
provided?)





% The newswire item below is not about EVs. Its about an ice service that
will come out in a service ice-pu-truck and refuel your non-EV.
My point in posting this is what would it take to create a service like this
for EVs?  Below are links on how this might be accomplished.

Imagine for an app fee, a service vehicle would come to your EV and provide
it a level-3 (L3) charge. There are likely other services that could also be
provided (see yoshi's site) but IMO the biggest need is getting a charge.

L2 is too slow. With 250+mi EVs, even half-powered L3-25kW would likely take
too long for the service truck to make its daily appointment rounds. A 40+kW
L3 service truck would be a minimum charging power.

A quick way to slap this together is what AAA did (see links below), with a
30kW genset in the back of the pu-truck providing 15-20kW. I had first had
experience of this
http://brucedp13.20m.com/eaasvr2013/
 at a Silicon Valley NDEW Rally (see bottom of page).

Another more efficient design would be to use the PTO (power take off) from
a truck's ice to power a 60kW generator for a dual CHAdeMO & ccs L3 EVSE.

Either generator could run off either bio-diesel, cng or LPG (bio-sourced,
cleaner) fuels. I think this L3 recharge service would be useful. %



https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/imagine-being-able-to-avoid-pumping-gas-ever-again-and-were-not-talking-about-electric-cars/95-a90cc94f-1d85-435a-9fc7-443defe479f1
Imagine being able to avoid pumping gas ever again? And we’re not talking
about electric cars!
January 11, 2019  Danielle Serino

[video  flash
https://media.wkyc.com/embeds/video/95-da8b6a7d-374e-4c2d-bd9b-e484f5dd3ad3/iframe
]

A new company will bring fuel right to you, plus deliver a number of
competitively priced car services.

We're all strapped for time these days.

Sometimes, that means putting off getting your car serviced. Or maybe
waiting until the last minute to fill up your gas tank.

But a new service, co-founded by Nick Alexander from Kent, is bringing the
garage directly to you.

And it’s something Northeast Ohio resident Susan Kennedy jumped on. Not only
does she hate standing outside in the cold pumping gas, she doesn’t have the
time to do it.

"I work full time. I have 2 kids. And I pick them up from a grandparent each
night. So, I don't really want to have to stop at a gas station if I don’t
have to," she says.

That’s why she subscribed to Yoshi, which in Japanese means ‘Good Luck. Keep
Moving’.

For $16 dollars a month, she gets regular or premium gas delivered right to
her car, wherever she wants and as often as she wants.

The cost per gallon? The same as the lowest priced station in her zip code.

And Yoshi Co-Founder Bryan Frist tells us, "We're the cheapest, but probably
the highest quality. One of our largest investors is Exxon mobile. And when
they invested, we committed to carrying only their Top Tier Synergy fuel."

Now, if that's not enough to get your engine going, the price per gallon
drops if you get additional services.

They have a number of a la carte offerings: Everything from interior and
exterior car washes, to a complete detail, which earns you a free tank of
gas.

And if you need maintenance, they can do things like change your oil, even
replace worn wiper blades.

"Let's say you get your tire checked, for example, you get 20 cents off your
per gallon price," Frist explains.

The company claims its average customer saves $240 dollars on gas per year,
and gains back about 33 hours of time.

Frist says, "You can imagine the last time you went to get your oil changed,
you’re sitting inside a grungy room waiting. All that time you can get
back."

And anything that keeps Susan from hitting empty at an inopportune time is
worth it.

"At the very beginning I was given a $25 credit. So, that I would get $5
dollars off every tank of gas I got. So, the first month I was making money
and I still haven't pumped gas."

The company is offering a 30 day free trial. New customers get a $50 credit,
which is basically $10 off your first 5 fill ups.

And here’s a fun fact. All of their trucks are named for people involved in
the business. That includes one called 

Re: [EVDL] EVlawsuit: No car could have withstood this 116mph crash> NTSB shutdown

2019-01-10 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

or laughing stock in court

-- Original Message --
From: "Alan Arrison via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Alan Arrison" 
Sent: 10-Jan-19 5:28:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVlawsuit: No car could have withstood this 116mph 
crash> NTSB shutdown



Anti-EV hogwash anyone?

On 1/10/2019 1:50 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


% ? Maybe rich parents should have spent time teaching their children
right-from-wrong-behavior> obey speed limits ? %

https://boingboing.net/2019/01/09/tesla-sued-for-death-of-18-yea.html
Tesla sued for death of 18-year-old in car accident, defective battery
blamed
2019-01-09  Reuters

[image]  Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla, with a Model S car. Photo: Reuters, 2016

In Illinois today, a law firm announced they are filing a lawsuit against
Tesla to hold the electric car maker accountable for a teen who died in an
accident involving a car they say had a defective battery pack.

The lawsuit filed by Chicago firm Corboy & Demetrio claims Tesla's 2014
Model S sedan had a defective battery pack that was responsible for the
death of an 18-year old passenger in an accident last May.

Some 12 cases of Tesla S batteries spontaneously bursting into flames, while
parked or driving out on the road, have happened in the last five years, the
law firm says.


Elon Musk's electric car company has been in the news over the past year or
so with stories that raise concerns about the conditions in which these
Tesla batteries are produced.

There's also the whole thing about a Mexican drug cartel dealing meth inside
one of the factories where the batteries are made.




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[EVDL] nissan leapfrogs in catch-up

2019-01-09 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
This could truly be a game changer for Nissan. I wonder if they've fixed 
their horrible battery degregation problems.

Peri

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/nissan-unveils-new-leaf-car-after-ghosns-arrest-delays-it/

The unveiling Wednesday at Nissan Motor Co.’s Yokohama headquarters, southwest 
of Tokyo, had been postponed when Ghosn was arrested Nov. 19.
...
The new 4.16 million yen ($38,000) Leaf e+ is about the same size as the model 
on sale, but gets more power and cruise range.
...
The Leaf e+ gets faster acceleration and has more torque than the older model 
and offers 40 percent more range at 458 kilometers (285 miles) per charge, as 
measured under Japanese regulations, compared with the old model’s 322 
kilometers (200 miles).
...
It goes on sale in Japan later this month, and rolls out in the U.S. in spring 
2019, and in Europe by mid-2019, Nissan said in a statement.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $50k flying EVs over San_Francisco-CA next year

2018-12-28 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
There are some pretty significant restrictions on flying over urban 
areas. Requires a pilot's license, for one. You must be at least 1000' 
above inhabited areas and you must also fly in the appropriate airspace. 
If AI were far along to automate the entire flight, we'd see it in use 
for private pilots right now.


Anyway, the idea's been around for a while. Check this out (OT):
https://books.google.com/books?id=htcDMBAJ=PA4#v=onepage=false
Go to page 87.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Rod Hower via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Rod Hower" 
Sent: 28-Dec-18 6:46:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $50k flying EVs over San_Francisco-CA next 
year



 Who was elected in 2016? Case closed

On ‎Friday‎, ‎December‎ ‎28‎, ‎2018‎ ‎09‎:‎42‎:‎14‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EST, Alan Arrison via 
EV  wrote:

 Does anyone believe this nonsense?

Al

On 12/28/2018 6:26 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/husband-and-wife-duo-sets-sights-on-flying-cars-over-san-francisco-next-year/
 Husband-and-wife duo sets sights on flying cars over San Francisco next year
 25 December 2018  Federico Maccioni

 [image
 https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2018/12/28-1-e1545231057248.jpg
 Illustrative detail image of a vehicle from New Future Transportation.
 (Courtesy)
 ]

 New Future Transportation (NFT) is developing an electric car prototype with
 wings that aims to solve congestion and also be affordable at $50,000

 You start the car, pull out of the parking lot and hit the road. So far — a
 routine trip. Now, select flight mode. A pair of wings comes out of the
 sides of your vehicle and you take off for your destination.

 Like the cars in Ridley Scott’s masterpiece “Blade Runner” flying over a
 dystopian Los Angeles of 2019 [
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRXifdYkWvY
 ], the prototype of the vehicle being developed by Silicon Valley-based New
 Future Transportation [
 https://www.nxtft.com/
 ] (NFT) is theoretically set to sail the skies of the Bay Area in October
 next year.

 “Our mission is not transportation, but better quality of life,” said NFT
 chairman Guy Kaplinsky, an Israeli who, with his wife Maki Kaplinsky,
 designed the car.

 The two entrepreneurs live near Palo Alto, about 50 miles from San
 Francisco, because “houses are more beautiful and cheaper” than in the
 metropolis, they said. However, for people who need to get to work near the
 Golden Gate Bridge, it takes as much as two and a half hours by car, because
 of traffic congestion.

 [image]  Maki Kaplinsky, a co-founder of New Future Transportation, NFT Inc.
 (Courtesy)

 According to a study by inrix.com, people in the San Francisco area spent on
 average 79 peak hours stuck in traffic in 2017, ranking the city the third
 out of 297 cities in the US and fifth out of 1,360 urban centers around the
 world in driving time spent in congestion.

 Kaplinsky said their competitively priced flying vehicle will allow users to
 save time and money.

 The flying car prototype will be a zero-emission multimodal vehicle — that
 can both drive and fly — the size of a sport utility vehicle (SUV), with two
 or four seats. It will take off and land vertically, and its wings will
 retractable, not fixed, the two entrepreneurs explained.

 “We made our design flexible” by creating a sort of hybrid system, CEO Maki
 Kaplinsky said.

 The base of the vehicle is electric, with a built-in extended range
 generator. Maki Kaplinsky said that with this combination the vehicle’s
 target flying range of 300 miles (480 kilometers) and driving range of 100
 miles (160 kilometers) will be “feasible and economical.”

 The aim is to use just batteries in the future, the entrepreneurs explained,
 without a generator. However, they said, batteries allowing for such ranges
 are yet to be developed and it is difficult to predict when this
 breakthrough will take place.

 The vehicle will be able to be either piloted or fly autonomously, said Maki
 Kaplinsky, adding that US regulations allow flight at a height of 300 to
 5,000 feet, even if in practice it is able to fly above and below this
 range.

 User-friendliness is the main feature of NFT’s projected flying car, which
 makes it stand out among other kinds of flying vehicles, the husband and
 wife said.

 [image]  Guy Kaplinsky, the co-founder and chairman of New Future
 Transportation, NFT. Inc (Courtesy)

 Maki Kaplinsky underlined that while drones and other electric aircraft
 require specific spots for parking and charging, NFT’s flying car can be
 parked in a garage or in the street. More importantly, she added, the
 vehicle’s “drive and fly” ability will allow users to reach their final
 destination using just one vehicle.

 Asked about technical issues that may arise with flying cars in an urban
 environment, the two entrepreneurs said that of course “people don’t like
 having cars flying above their heads,” but that the vehicles would be taking
 off from designated areas near shopping 

Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

2018-12-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
it's easy to read and not very long. (You also have to wonder why a 
"research" article is available at no charge.)


The article is purely speculative with not a single backed-up fact. This 
is fine, but it needs to be taken for what it is.


Actually, it is nearly devoid of facts regarding BEV and FCEV efficiency 
and completely devoid of any information on production of hydrogen from 
non fossil fuel sources. The majority of statements with numbers also 
contains words like "could", "might", "possibly".


The closest statements I found to presenting efficiency facts are:

Battery electric vehicles exhibit higher overall fuel efficiency as long 
as they are not too heavy due to large battery sizes

...
Based on their entire life cycles, FCEVs achieve very low CO2 emissions, 
in part because they don’t require large batteries whose production is 
energy and resource intensive.

...
Currently, each ton of CO2 saved through FCEVs is estimated to cost more 
than $1,500...


I think it's safe to say that, so far, we do not have any evidence that 
technology will exist for efficiently producing hydrogen from non fossil 
fuel sources.


Peri



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 27-Dec-18 1:34:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


Sure.

“Hydrogen: The next wave for electric vehicles?”

By Bernd Heid, Martin Linder, Anna Orthofer, Marcus Wilthaner

I already posted the date.

I haven’t read the article yet, so you’ll have to read it yourself or wait 
until I have a chance.

As far as the 2011 study, I only have a presentation from a DOE HTAC meeting by 
Sandy Thomas, given in February, 2011.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 27, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 Mark, can you post the title, author(s), pub date, and include the summary and 
snips of any relevant findings that address your claim? That would help.

 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 Sent: 27-Dec-18 10:51:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


 Hi Willie,

 Apparently there was a study in 2011 and another in 2017 by McKinsey & Co.

 The 2017 study was the subject of an article in November, 2017 in the 
publication “Automotive and Assembly”. I was just sent a copy of it, but am not 
sure that attachments can be posted to this list.

 I was also sent a presentation to the DOE on the 2011 McKinsey study.

 I’ve not read either one yet.

 Hope this helps.

 - Mark

 Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:




 On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.


 That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

2018-12-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Mark, can you post the title, author(s), pub date, and include the 
summary and snips of any relevant findings that address your claim? That 
would help.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Sent: 27-Dec-18 10:51:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


Hi Willie,

Apparently there was a study in 2011 and another in 2017 by McKinsey & Co.

The 2017 study was the subject of an article in November, 2017 in the 
publication “Automotive and Assembly”. I was just sent a copy of it, but am not 
sure that attachments can be posted to this list.

I was also sent a presentation to the DOE on the 2011 McKinsey study.

I’ve not read either one yet.

Hope this helps.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:




 On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.


 That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

2018-12-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I understand a recent study has shown some people are born with the 
ability to breath under water, after spending several years of practice 
encouraging maturity of specialized tissues. We have a goal for gene 
modification so that, in the near future, all of us will have this 
ability.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 27-Dec-18 7:39:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


On 26 Dec 2018 at 17:02, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:


 But when you look at costs at scale, I understand a recent study showed
 hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.


Cheaper than what?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

2018-12-26 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

To be clear, I find fuel cells fascinating technology. I don't know how much 
potential improvement is possible and I support continuing research to find out.

That's different from supporting a build out of a hydrogen infrastructure. 
There is significant cost to do so and, to be effective, it will probably need 
to be as extensive as the current fueling infrastructure. I suppose one could 
argue that such infrastructure partially exists already, considering the land 
and some structures would be repurposed. But that's only part of the cost. We 
still need to deal with new storage tanks and delivery systems from tank to 
vehicle. Given that hydrogen is hard to contain and that the current hydrogen 
infrastructure is essentially zero, this is a huge expense.

Second, the only method I know to produce hydrogen from non fossil fuel is by 
cracking water. It's my understanding that it is substantially more efficient 
to just use the electricity directly to charge a battery. Perhaps, if you take 
into account the production of the battery you might show that in some cases 
the fuel cell comes out ahead. But that's with last year's battery technology. 
Enough progress is being made that I think such arguments will be false if not 
already false.

To have a large number of businesses supporting an unknown technology makes me 
suspicious. This is not an altruistic effort. Sure, support the build out now. 
Get government money to help. Once all this is built, it will be supplied with 
non fossil fuel hydrogen. Or not. If not, is that infrastructure just going to 
sit there? Ha. The pressure to use it, with hydrogen from natural gas, will be 
unsurmountable. Goals will be crushed and the petrol industry will win.

So, let's support research. But no build out until we have reasonable evidence 
of a technology to efficiently produce hydrogen in a sustainable way.

Peri

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Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-24 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I must have blinked or maybe I'm blind. Could you please repeat your 
citation for cases where hydrogen generation (from non fossil fuels) 
currently is cleaner than grid electricity.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 23-Dec-18 6:49:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” 
(GHG emissions) than the grid



See the subject of the thread for the bottom line answer, though things are 
never as simple as a one-liner. But I gave you my answer, and you didn’t want 
to accept it.

I also gave you the reasons why, but you wanted sources, so there’s the table.

I really don’t use this table - it was just to give you the info you wanted. I 
could pick and choose data pieces, but that wouldn’t  be fair either.

Hydrogen *can* be cleaner, and actually is frequently.

For someone who wanted to jump into the deep data, something I learned recently 
is that for those charging from the grid at night, the energy they are using is 
virtually all non-renewable (fossil). And I’m told that most of it is from 
fracked natural gas.(this is all California perspective - other areas use more 
coal on the grid)

For those of you that are thinking that faced with this information, battery EV 
are not worth pushing any more (haha), I’ll say that you are still wrong. BOTH 
are still important, and needed.  And that’s been my point from the beginning.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 23, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 Mark,
 Thanks for posting this. Maybe someone else can benefit from it but I really 
don't know how to use this spreadsheet nor do I have the time to dedicate to 
learning it. If you would be able to answer the fundamental question, which I 
think can be done without reference to this spreadsheet, that would be most 
helpful.
 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

 Sent: 23-Dec-18 3:34:36 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG 
emissions) than the grid


 I’ll you interpret the the results.

 I’ve seen a number of summary charts that various people have created, but you 
seem to want detail, so here are the detailed results of the current GREET 
model - California version:

 CA GREET model 2.0 results

 https://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/ca_greet1.8b_dec09.xls

 Note: I don’t think that CO2 numbers are total CO2 equivalent (check this), so 
you might want to look at GHGs rather than CO2, if that’s the metric you want. 
Then again, I don’t know those numbers are CO2 equivalent either.

 Have fun.

 - Mark

 Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 23, 2018, at 12:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 Alright, Mark, then let's look at it from a point of view of emissions (CO2 in 
particular). Do you have references showing that emissions from producing 
hydrogen (from non fossil fuels) have less than emissions from producing 
electricity for the same amount of traction energy?

 Peri



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Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-23 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Mark,
Thanks for posting this. Maybe someone else can benefit from it but I 
really don't know how to use this spreadsheet nor do I have the time to 
dedicate to learning it. If you would be able to answer the fundamental 
question, which I think can be done without reference to this 
spreadsheet, that would be most helpful.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 23-Dec-18 3:34:36 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” 
(GHG emissions) than the grid



I’ll you interpret the the results.

I’ve seen a number of summary charts that various people have created, 
but you seem to want detail, so here are the detailed results of the 
current GREET model - California version:


CA GREET model 2.0 results

https://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/ca_greet1.8b_dec09.xls

Note: I don’t think that CO2 numbers are total CO2 equivalent (check 
this), so you might want to look at GHGs rather than CO2, if that’s the 
metric you want. Then again, I don’t know those numbers are CO2 
equivalent either.


Have fun.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

On Dec 23, 2018, at 12:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


Alright, Mark, then let's look at it from a point of view of emissions 
(CO2 in particular). Do you have references showing that emissions 
from producing hydrogen (from non fossil fuels) have less than 
emissions from producing electricity for the same amount of traction 
energy?


Peri



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Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-23 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Alright, Mark, then let's look at it from a point of view of emissions 
(CO2 in particular). Do you have references showing that emissions from 
producing hydrogen (from non fossil fuels) have less than emissions from 
producing electricity for the same amount of traction energy?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 23-Dec-18 11:55:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” 
(GHG emissions) than the grid



To be clear, my interest is in emissions and not source efficiency. If you want 
source efficiency, ride a horse. Even better, ride a bike. That’s not meant to 
be a smart aleck response, but to point out that those are more efficient, but 
don’t have a lot of the other benefits that might be needed.

For you own search about source efficiency, DOE is a good place, but not that 
efficiencies (and cost and densities) are changing quickly, and aren’t always 
public.

Because of all this, it makes these exercises purely academic, as well as a lot 
of work to get poor data.

And environmental costs open up a whole new level of complexity, though by not 
including post-life disposal and recycling, it’s a little more simple. But 
still complex, particularly since there are many pathways to producing (and 
using) both hydrogen and electricity.

There are many expert in pieces of this, but I’m not one of those.

But besides the main DOE website, try the sites for the DOE National Labs, 
particularly NREL and Argonne. But much of that data is out of date, too.

The web sites of the California Fuel Cell Partnership (CaFCP.org) and the 
California Hydrogen Business Council (californiahydrogen.org) may have pieces 
of Information on them that you may find useful, with the CHBC site expecting 
much more posting in the near future.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 23, 2018, at 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 Mark, you're the one advocating for non fossil fuel based hydrogen generation, which is 
fine. I presume you are among the most knowledgeable people of how to generate this fuel. 
It would be very helpful if you could substantiate the claims being made with some 
quality references, rather than asking me to "do your own homework." Actually, 
I have done some looking and not found anything that shows cracking is more efficient 
than using the electricity directly in BEVs.

 I don't want to focus on whether BEVs are better or not than fuel cell EVs. 
Just which is a more efficient usage of source energy. That could include the 
environmental costs of manufacturing each type of distribution and storage 
systems.

 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

 Sent: 22-Dec-18 9:25:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG 
emissions) than the grid


 “On a path” are my words.

 What *I* mean is that there are technologies existing and there are 
technologies being developed and improved that can provide us with fossil-free 
hydrogen AND the industry is committed to using these technologies to getting 
to 100%. For several years, they’ve outperformed the grid on this metric.

 As far as cracking efficiencies, just one of the technologies, efficiencies 
have been improving significantly. You’ll have to do your own homework on the 
rate of improvements. Just like batteries have many ways to produce 
electricity, there are many path ways to produce (and use) hydrogen.

 Whether batteries are *better*, my own opinion is that it depends. It’s 
another way of storing energy. It depends on the use. In vehicles, it depends 
on duty cycle, cost, infrastructure, a whole host of things. I don’t get too 
excited over the storage method of the energy. Others are pathological over it. 
I guess it’s like “Go Raiders!”

 As far as infrastructure, some in the BEV industry would take strong exception 
with your assertion that additional infrastructure isn’t needed. I won’t jump 
into that fight.

 But you are right that at least initially, there needs to be a robust fueling 
infrastructure. I like the idea of replacing fossil fuel stations with 
renewable energy stations.

 But there is also work ongoing towards replacing the natural gas in pipelines 
going to your home with hydrogen.

 Lastly, as far as your point about an industry that relies on fossil fuels, 
the whole point of my original post was to show that the industry is committed 
to *not* using polluting fossil fuels, and to eliminate those as a source of 
the product in a timeframe faster than that of the grid.

 To date, they have already been surpassing the electrical grid in moving away.

 Mark, you're the one advocating for non fossil fuel based hydrogen generation, which is 
fine. I presume you are among the most knowledgeable

Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-23 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Mark, you're the one advocating for non fossil fuel based hydrogen 
generation, which is fine. I presume you are among the most 
knowledgeable people of how to generate this fuel. It would be very 
helpful if you could substantiate the claims being made with some 
quality references, rather than asking me to "do your own homework." 
Actually, I have done some looking and not found anything that shows 
cracking is more efficient than using the electricity directly in BEVs.


I don't want to focus on whether BEVs are better or not than fuel cell 
EVs. Just which is a more efficient usage of source energy. That could 
include the environmental costs of manufacturing each type of 
distribution and storage systems.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 22-Dec-18 9:25:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” 
(GHG emissions) than the grid



“On a path” are my words.

What *I* mean is that there are technologies existing and there are 
technologies being developed and improved that can provide us with fossil-free 
hydrogen AND the industry is committed to using these technologies to getting 
to 100%. For several years, they’ve outperformed the grid on this metric.

As far as cracking efficiencies, just one of the technologies, efficiencies 
have been improving significantly. You’ll have to do your own homework on the 
rate of improvements. Just like batteries have many ways to produce 
electricity, there are many path ways to produce (and use) hydrogen.

Whether batteries are *better*, my own opinion is that it depends. It’s another 
way of storing energy. It depends on the use. In vehicles, it depends on duty 
cycle, cost, infrastructure, a whole host of things. I don’t get too excited 
over the storage method of the energy. Others are pathological over it. I guess 
it’s like “Go Raiders!”

As far as infrastructure, some in the BEV industry would take strong exception 
with your assertion that additional infrastructure isn’t needed. I won’t jump 
into that fight.

But you are right that at least initially, there needs to be a robust fueling 
infrastructure. I like the idea of replacing fossil fuel stations with 
renewable energy stations.

But there is also work ongoing towards replacing the natural gas in pipelines 
going to your home with hydrogen.

Lastly, as far as your point about an industry that relies on fossil fuels, the 
whole point of my original post was to show that the industry is committed to 
*not* using polluting fossil fuels, and to eliminate those as a source of the 
product in a timeframe faster than that of the grid.

To date, they have already been surpassing the electrical grid in moving away.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 22, 2018, at 4:49 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 I, too, question the meaning of "on a path of 100% carbon-free hydrogen." It's 
one thing to have a goal and another to be on a path. The latter implies that the 
technology exists and needs to be scaled (and perhaps optimized).

 The only technology I'm aware of is using electricity to "crack" water. It's my 
understanding that the process is so inefficient that it's better to use the electricity directly 
(and store it in batteries). If that's the technology behind the "path" then please 
explain why that process is better than using batteries.

 The other major problem is infrastructure. Unlike EVs, you can't charge at 
home. So we would need to build out a filling station network equally robust as 
the petrol system we have today. I suppose you could say that it's partly built 
since the physical stations exist. But I expect there is extreme cost in 
installing large hydrogen tanks and providing the complex tank-to-car filling 
systems.

 If one is looking at the benefits of hydrogen generated from natural gas, 
there are some positive arguments. I won't go into that since I do not want to 
support a technology that continues to depend on fossil fuels.

 Since a lot of businesses and the government are on board with this, perhaps 
there's something completely wrong with my assumptions. Please correct me.

 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 Sent: 20-Dec-18 5:49:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG 
emissions) than the grid


 Sorry, that last part should read “though unintentionally”

 - Mark

 Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 20, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:

 Some of you know that I’ve been an advocate for BEVs for a number of decades, 
and of hydrogen fuel cell EVs (the “other” electric vehicle) for a bit less.

 In my day job, I recommend and advocate major funding of both battery 
electrics and hydrogen fuel 

Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” (GHG emissions) than the grid

2018-12-22 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I, too, question the meaning of "on a path of 100% carbon-free 
hydrogen." It's one thing to have a goal and another to be on a path. 
The latter implies that the technology exists and needs to be scaled 
(and perhaps optimized).


The only technology I'm aware of is using electricity to "crack" water. 
It's my understanding that the process is so inefficient that it's 
better to use the electricity directly (and store it in batteries). If 
that's the technology behind the "path" then please explain why that 
process is better than using batteries.


The other major problem is infrastructure. Unlike EVs, you can't charge 
at home. So we would need to build out a filling station network equally 
robust as the petrol system we have today. I suppose you could say that 
it's partly built since the physical stations exist. But I expect there 
is extreme cost in installing large hydrogen tanks and providing the 
complex tank-to-car filling systems.


If one is looking at the benefits of hydrogen generated from natural 
gas, there are some positive arguments. I won't go into that since I do 
not want to support a technology that continues to depend on fossil 
fuels.


Since a lot of businesses and the government are on board with this, 
perhaps there's something completely wrong with my assumptions. Please 
correct me.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Sent: 20-Dec-18 5:49:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Keeping hydrogen for transportation “cleaner” 
(GHG emissions) than the grid



Sorry, that last part should read “though unintentionally”

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 20, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:

 Some of you know that I’ve been an advocate for BEVs for a number of decades, 
and of hydrogen fuel cell EVs (the “other” electric vehicle) for a bit less.

 In my day job, I recommend and advocate major funding of both battery 
electrics and hydrogen fuel cell applications.

 One of my many volunteer roles (“working for free” as Bruce would put it) is 
serving as Immediate Past Chair of the California Hydrogen Business Council.

 As some of you may know, the renewable content of hydrogen used in 
transportation exceeds that of the grid. And the industry itself is on a path 
of 100% carbon-free hydrogen .

 Not long ago, the Hydrogen Council, made up of the CEOs of leaders in the 
industry, released a formal policy supporting 100% carbon-free in 
transportation hydrogen by 2030. This is 15 years before the 100% carbon-free 
grid date of 2045 adopted by the California legislature.

 Tomorrow a release will go out announcing the support of this policy by the 
California Hydrogen Business Council.

 The adopted language follows.  For those of you who have completely misstated 
the facts, though intentionally, I hope that you will read it carefully.

 December 18, 2018

 CHBC Endorses Full Decarbonization Goal of Hydrogen in Transportation by 2030

 The California Hydrogen Business Council (CHBC) on behalf of its members is 
pleased to endorse the commitment of the Hydrogen Council to the goal of 
decarbonizing 100% of hydrogen fuel used in transport by 2030.

 The goal was announced by the Hydrogen Council on September 14, 2018 at the 
Global Climate Action Summit in San Francisco, hosted by Governor Brown:

 “The Hydrogen Council, a global CEO coalition bringing together 50+ leaders in 
the energy, transport and industry space, is committed to an ambitious goal of 
ensuring that 100% of hydrogen fuel used in different modes of transportation 
is decarbonised by 2030. We are therefore calling on governments to build a 
global alliance that will create the necessary regulatory frameworks to help 
make this commitment a reality. Transport may be our first target, but with 
right level of support we will see positive effects across many sectors. We 
believe hydrogen can play a key role in the clean energy transition and we are 
ready to work together with governments to help create the right technical, 
financial and legislative environment that will enable decarbonised hydrogen to 
scale up.”

 Through this commitment to the 2030 goal, hydrogen for transportation can 
achieve full decarbonization 15 years ahead of the SB 100 mandate of 100% 
carbon-free electricity by 2045.  Attainment of the stated goal of 100% 
carbon-free hydrogen fuel by 2030 will maintain the position of hydrogen fuel 
cell electric drive as the lowest-carbon alternative among electric drive 
solutions.
 The hydrogen industry is committed to helping California dramatically reduce 
emissions despite increasing transportation demand by providing a clean fuel 
that has proven itself in both on- and off-road applications and is emerging as 
an important alternative to diesel in marine, rail and port applications.


 - Mark

 Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

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Re: [EVDL] article: For the first time, a Chinese car is coming to the US—and it’s electric

2018-12-19 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
It will be interesting to hear more about this venture. My first 
question will be about their integrity to provide warranty and post 
warranty support. Also, what kind of tracking devices will be cached 
throughout the cabin? But, I'm not skeptical...


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Paul Wujek via EV" 
To: "EV" 
Cc: "Paul Wujek" 
Sent: 19-Dec-18 7:19:03 AM
Subject: [EVDL] article: For the first time, a Chinese car is coming to 
the US—and it’s electric



https://qz.com/1500303/chinas-qiantu-will-be-first-chinese-electric-carmaker-to-challenge-tesla-in-the-us/
-- *Paul Wujek* 
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Re: [EVDL] 2 PHEVs, is my quest over?

2018-12-17 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Is it over? By your own account, no. But it appears you reached your 
primary goal - to handle all your daily vehicle travels in EV mode.

Nice story and great to hear about your early efforts !
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Damon Henry via EV" 
To: "EV List" 
Cc: "Damon Henry" 
Sent: 17-Dec-18 10:49:37 AM
Subject: [EVDL] 2 PHEVs, is my quest over?

My journey to driving electric started back in 2000 when I saw a story 
on the local news.  It wasn't long after that I first met John Wayland 
who I found through some internet searches.  He pointed me to the EVDL. 
  After describing my commute to him it was apparent that I could not 
build the EV I wanted.  It was the classic you can only have 2 of the 3 
requirements scenarios.  In my case, the extreme range that I required  
meant that I would be stuck in the slow lane holding up traffic going 
up some nasty inclines that were unavoidable, so in March of 2001 I 
bought my beloved Honda Insight instead.  It soon became apparent that 
as cool as the hybrid thing was, I still really wanted to drive 
electric.  About a year later, I bought a 1974 Suzuki GT 250 with the 
intent on doing my first conversion.  I felt a motorcycle was a lot 
less complicated and cheaper to convert, and I would learn lots of 
valuable lessons along the way.  It turned out well, and gave me the 
ability to get around f
ully electric for some of my driving, but definitely would not cover my 
full commute.  I toyed with ideas of how I could make this vehicle 
work.  I even loaded it up in the back of my van on a couple of 
occasions and drove half of my commute then rode the motorcycle for the 
rest (the original PHEV).  My thinking was that I could stage a dump 
charger or swap-able battery pack at an EV friendly business or 
residence along the way...  I decided the motorcycle was not the 
answer, so my next adventure was my 1970 Datsun truck conversion.  Both 
my motorcycle and my truck have served me well over the years in 
specific scenarios and I have had lots of fun driving electric, but was 
never able to make them work consistently for my needs, so the quest 
went unfulfilled.


September of last year I bought my wife a 2017 Prius Prime with 4000 
miles on it.  Last week I traded in my 2016 Hyundai Sonata SE hybrid 
for a 2016 Hyundai Sonata PHEV Limited with 15,500 miles on it.  Both 
of these cars cover all of our current daily driving needs on electric 
alone.  They both feature all the latest tech and are wonderful to 
drive.  Charging is a breeze and I never worry about murdering the 
batteries.  Trips to the gas station are months apart.  I would 
estimate that roughly 85% of our driving will be electric now and that 
includes road trips which we usually do a few times a year (at least 
4000 miles worth).  I'm in no hurry now to buy an OEM BEV.  There is 
not currently one on the market that I find compelling.  I suspect that 
is going to change as there are lots of interesting ones in the works, 
but I will probably wait a couple of years after that for good used 
ones to be available.  It's amazing how fast cars lose their value, 
especially ones that are purchase
d with govt tax incentives.  Both my recent purchases feel like brand 
new cars without sticker shock.


I feel like I have finally arrived.  My family is driving electric 
everywhere now, and with the addition of the 8KW solar system I 
installed on my roof this year, I'm also making my own fuel :)  Its a 
good time to be an EV enthusiast!


Damon
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Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.

2018-12-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I like the last idea - Teslas to senators - but, I believe, it violates 
the gifts ethics rules. Oh, well. It would be effective.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 14-Dec-18 12:39:25 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toyota and the hydrogen wish.




On 12/14/18 12:29 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
performance.  If you gave every driver in the country an electric car 
for a month and explained the cost difference...we'd all be driving 
electric.


Completely agree.  But, cost prohibitive.  Perhaps relatively few cars 
sequenced through the population.


In another discussion forum, I've proposed that the 25 district highway 
engineers in Texas be given or given access to Teslas.  Those 25 people 
independently control much of the nitty gritty of highway design and 
maintenance in different geographical areas.  That, in an educational 
effort to drive home the need for intelligent and uniform lane markings 
which would make the AutoPilot job easier.  I fully recognize the risk 
of bribery charges.


For general EV promotion, Teslas given to all US Senators and 
Representatives would go a long way.  With Tesla's current size, the 
cost of a thousand or so cars would be trivial.  And probably cheaper 
than their current lobby cost.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us forEVs

2018-12-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Even for gas cars, that's an extreme range. Most, I think, have a range 
from 300-400 miles. Apparently people are content with that.


I'm sure that some EVs will have the option for enormous range, such as 
600 miles per charge. But will people buy them? My guess is most people 
would rather pay less for the car and settle for, say, 300 mile range. 
As many have stated here, that's adequate for just about anything 
imaginable in a day. And for the one or two times a year you need to go 
more than 300 miles in a day, well, you stop and charge once or twice. 
Even outside this list, I think people will realize that.


So, I don't think we'll have a crisis of needing to support a high usage 
of 150kWh in one hour. We will, however need to support a large number 
of sessions at 50-75kWh in one hour or less. Even that could put a load 
on some distribution systems, though I don't think it's that bad.


Consider, out in the "middle of nowhere". A convenience store uses about 
50kW on average and there are likely several businesses each consuming 
something in that range. And there might be 4 or 5 charge points. 
Overall, the load on the distribution system might double or triple. And 
if we're talking about adding EV service to a small town, the 
distribution system will probably already handle the load.


But, yes, I agree with Peter that utilities will need to plan for better 
distribution.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Peter Eckhoff via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peter Eckhoff" 
Sent: 14-Dec-18 8:35:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota dealers say there is no sale$ demand.us 
forEVs


If current batteries have around 215 whr/kg and Amprius's new battery 
which
maybe rated as much as 435 whr/kg (if in the same volume), a Model 3 
with a

300 mile range could conceivably have a 600 mile range and a Bolt could
have a 480 mile range.  At 60 miles per hour, the max range occurs at 
about
10 hours and 8 hours of driving, respectively.  Basically, a full day 
of

driving with no pit stops for a meal and/or personal weight adjustment.

But if you want to press on for another 10 or 8 hours, I've timed a 
family
pit stop at about 30 minutes and add to that the time it would take to 
do
an ICE refuel at a semi-busy set of interstate pumps, you have a 
minimum of
40 minutes that could be used to recharge an EV.  Let's make it an 
hour.


For an hour full recharge, a Model 3 and Bolt would need 150 and 120
kwhrs.  At 480 volts, that's 312 amp-hours; a bit much.  But spread 
that
over a good night's sleep, shower, breakfast, repacking, checkout, etc. 
for
a total of 14 hours, that's 22 amp-hours  which is not unreasonable or 
10

hours at 32 amps.

A trip from Omaha to Rapid City, SD is 524 miles and taking a side trip 
to
Fossil Bed State Park is completely doable with no range anxiety; maybe 
a
slight top off for a Bolt at Wall or one of the other small towns along 
the

way.

The biggest hurdle will be the generation, storage, and distribution of 
the

energy to recharging points.

Has anyone read what the utilities are planning on doing?







On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 9:08 AM Collin Kidder via EV 


wrote:

On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 7:43 PM Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:

>
> If fast charging is so vital, how come the market isn't flooded with
> fast chargers for cellphones, laptops, power tools, and all our 
other

> battery-operated toys?

?!?!?!?! Umm IT IS. The market most certainly is packed full with
fast chargers for cellphones. They all advertise how their new 9v wall
wart and cable will charge your phone up like 80% in 45 minutes or
some such thing. Companies like Samsung have specifically built fast
charging into their premium phones. Likewise on power tools. As you
might expect, people doing construction burn through batteries on
portable tools. So, those chargers tend to be quite fast also - they
even have thermal management but only in the form of "we won't charge
this battery until it's not hot anymore." Laptops don't tend to have
super fast chargers because you can usually use them plugged in anyway
so the battery ends up being more like a built-in UPS.

So, yeah, fast charging most certainly exists where there is a use
case for it. I can see the draw of fast charging for electric cars
too. It's true that 90% of the time you don't need it and can charge
slowly at home. But, as EVs become more prevalent there will be cases
where people have nothing else. In that case if you have to drive 700
miles somewhere then you need some fast chargers. I think the biggest
draw for fast chargers are that they fill the gap we currently have
where you can recharge quickly with gasoline (only maybe 4 minutes)
but you can't do that in an EV. So, people are used to filling up
quickly and want to retain that. This is mostly psychological but you
can't discount that. Psychological issues are very real and saying
"just charge at home" doesn't cut it. People aren't looking for your

Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

2018-12-12 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
It really is 31 miles at 75% capacity. When new, it got about 50 miles 
during winter, about 75 in summer (no where close to 90). Look at my 
previous posts "poor 2011 Leaf performance", snip included here:


Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
9 capacity bars)
Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).

45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
range.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 12-Dec-18 2:46:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc




On 12/12/18 4:37 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
According to Nissan, 9 out of 12 capacity bars is still a properly 
functioning battery, which is somewhere near 68%. I get about 30 miles 
range in winter with that. You may disagree with Nissan :)


9/12 SHOULD indicate 75%.

I contend that Nissan uses "bars" instead of a linear or honest measure 
for obfuscation.  To hide the real situation from owners.  My 
experience was that a 2011 Leaf could be driven about 90 miles in good 
conditions. I suspect 30 miles in winter is 50% or less.

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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

2018-12-12 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
According to Nissan, 9 out of 12 capacity bars is still a properly 
functioning battery, which is somewhere near 68%. I get about 30 miles 
range in winter with that. You may disagree with Nissan :)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 12-Dec-18 2:33:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc


On 12 Dec 2018 at 13:18, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:


Essentially the percentage of capacity compared to new.
So 68% of 24kWh for a 2011-2015 or a 2016 S.
Or 68% of 30kWh for a 2016 SL or SV or a 2017 Leaf.


With a lead battery, 68% of factory specified capacity would be 
considered a
fully depreciated battery, ready for replacement.  Actually anything 
below

80% would be.

Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of 
spec

capacity still considered usable?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid

2018-12-11 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think this is too small a dataset to form a conclusion, though I hope 
it is a positive indication. The biggest unknown is how the market would 
respond if there were 10 or 20 different makers of model 3-like cars. 
Would that mean 10-20 times the sales overall or would it dilute the 
existing sales in a more-or-less fixed size market.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 11-Dec-18 8:51:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid


On 11 Dec 2018 at 14:18, paul dove via EV wrote:

There were 6 million vehicles sold in the US in 2017. 50,000 model 3's 
is a

niche.


From July through October of 2018, Tesla sold 72,050 model 3 cars.  In 
the
same period, Toyota sold 87,912 Corollas.  So Tesla is right on their 
tail,
only 18% fewer, and a Toyota Corolla isn't what I'd call a niche 
vehicle.


During that same time, Nissan moved just  5,261 Leaves.  During the 
same
period in 2017 (I can't find 2018 sales figures), Chevrolet shifted 24% 
more
Corvettes (6,529).  The Corvette is unquestionably a niche car, so if 
Leaves

sell even more slowly, what should we call the Leaf?

I wish it weren't so, but there it is.  The Leaf is a niche vehicle.  
But

the good news is that Tesla 3 is NOT, at least right now.

Will Tesla 3 sales hold up once the tax credits are gone?  Who knows, 
but
I'll say this, right now Tesla is by miles the EV sales leader.  I 
never
expected to see those kinds of sales numbers for ANY EV this early in 
the

21st century.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid

2018-12-10 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think there might be a reasonable market for a Stella-like vehicle, 
except without the solar panels. Blasphemous, I know :)


But, imagine a family sized car that goes 400 miles per charge for 
practically no cost. Yes, it needs A/C, heat, good music system, cup 
holders. Those will obviously reduce the range somewhat. But the biggest 
factor will be the full safety system. Side air bags, door 
reinforcement, crumple zone. Maybe the Stella already accommodates 
these, I don't know.


With a relatively small battery and basic interior finishes, could the 
retail price be around $15K? If so, it could be really tempting to a 
whole new market sector. And, a more expensive model could be sold with 
solar panels for those who want to have infinite range.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 10-Dec-18 9:17:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof> its stupid


On 10 Dec 2018 at 9:22, Willie via EV wrote:


they will be a niche market and very unlikely to expand beyond the
niche category.


A niche of a niche, because even today EVs themselves are still a niche
item, and IMO will only become a true mass market product with 
continued
strong promotion from activist governments.  Keep your fingers crossed 
for

educated, forward-looking voters and legislators in Asia and Europe!

Pushing even further into that niche corner with onboard solar EVs 
(OBSEVs,
if you like) may indeed waste valuable resources that we could be 
spending

to further promote EVs and stationary, offboard solar charging.

That said ...

It's no secret here that I have my own personal concerns with Tesla's 
cars.

But think about it.  We're all at a place where I can say "I want a
commercial EV, but I don't want to buy a Tesla."  We have EV CHOICE!  
Twenty

years ago, who would have expected it?

For that, we can give a great deal of credit to Musk and Tesla for 
showing
drivers AND GOVERNMENTS what was possible with EVs.  Good thing he 
didn't
listen to the EV-naysayers 15 years ago, and give up commercializing 
the

original Roadster.

I'm skeptical that Stella and other similar OBSEV efforts are going to 
pay
off in the mass (or even niche) market any time soon, if ever.  I guess 
that
makes me an OBSEV naysayer today.  So, Stella team, don't listen to me 
and

the other cynics!  Go for it.  You won't know if you're the next Tesla
unless you try.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too small a surface

2018-12-09 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

The Stellas are truly amazing. Can they work in real life ?
Lawrence Rhodes, you probably track these vehicles the most of anyone on 
this list, maybe you can add to this.


I recall discussing this recently and, in good solar conditions, the 
Stella can even climb a mountain pass on its own PVs, not having to use 
battery reserve. But that still leaves questions:
- parked in shade or a garage; maybe there needs to be charging for this 
case
- poor sun angle in winter; in Seattle, it maxes at 21 deg at the winter 
solstice.
- shade from trees, buildings, etc while on the road; how much PV 
degredation does this cause?


To make a production version of the Stella, these factors and more need 
to be realized. I'd like to see it done but I'm pretty sure Musk and 
others chose the more traditional design since they could calculate 
engineering success.


Peri


-- Original Message --
From: "Larry Gales via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Larry Gales" 
Sent: 08-Dec-18 11:20:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too small 
a surface


Why has no one mentioned the obvious: the Stella Lux and Stella Vie 
which
achieve practical solar power because they are extremely lightweight 
and
sport a 1.2 to 1.5 solar PV. The Dutch team that has produced these 
street
legal vehicles (4-5 passengers, top speed of 77 mph) is also working on 
a

production model named "LightYear"

On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM paul dove via EV  
wrote:



  (Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket will
give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)
Someone's math is off. You can only get 1KW/h from a wall socket. 
Maybe 30

miles in 8 hours.

On Saturday, December 8, 2018, 8:05:15 PM CST, brucedp5 via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:



https://qz.com/1482588/why-teslas-dont-and-cant-have-solar-roofs/
Why Teslas don’t—and can’t—have solar roofs
December 3, 2018  Kabir Chibber

[images
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTX1A0WZ.jpg
The only solar-powered cars that work

https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTS1WEN8.jpg
The Sono prototype  / REUTERS/Andreas Gebert
]

It’s a pretty intuitive question. “Why don’t electric cars have solar
roof[s?]” asked one person in the “No Stupid Questions” area of 
Reddit.
“Wouldn’t it make sense to have a self sustaining charging 
capabilities.”

There are similar questions on Quora and elsewhere.

Teslas and other cars run off electricity, drawing from an 
electric-power
infrastructure that often runs off of dirty fuels. Solar power 
generates
lots of electricity for free from the sun. Why don’t electric cars 
have

solar roofs to power them for free?

For one thing, the math makes it quite difficult. Elon Musk briefly
suggested that solar roofs would be an option for the Tesla Model 3, 
but
later walked it back and explained why. “Putting solar panels on the 
car

itself?” Musk said in July 2017. “Not that helpful, because the actual
surface of the car is not that much, and cars are often inside. The 
least
efficient place to put solar is on the car.” It turns out that he had 
meant
a solar roof that unfolds from the trunk and overs the current car 
hood.


A Tesla rival, the Karma Revero, actually has a solar roof as an 
option. As
Wired noted (paywall), modern solar panels are inefficient and convert 
just
15-20% of the energy that reaches them. So that Revero solar roof, 
having
received eight hours of pure sunshine, will generate enough power to 
drive
1.5 miles. (Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket 
will

give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)

On Quora, Chris Harget, a product-marketing manager in the Bay Area,
summarizes the problems (emphasis added by him):

The top of an electric car has maybe 3–5 square meters of flat 
space.


Solar panels, even at high noon, usually only produce about 200
watt-hours per square meter.

The most efficient production electric vehicles today (probably 
the
Hyundai Ioniq and the Tesla Mod 3) would only be able to travel 2–4 
miles

on
that amount of electricity…in an hour. Most people could walk faster.

Financially, the cost of the panels and electronics, R and 
assembly
would never pay for itself in the life of the vehicle, compared to 
charging

from the wall in your garage.

That doesn’t mean no one is trying. There’s a German startup called 
Sono

Motors that wants to build cars with solar panels. Toyota last year
announced that upcoming Prius hybrid cars would come with Panasonic 
solar

roofs (paywall).

Still, even as solar panels become more common and more efficient, 
they

won’t be on most cars anytime soon.
[© qz.com]


+

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3067447/vattenfall-begins-rollout-of-wind-powered-ev-chargers-in-norfolk
Vattenfall begins rollout of wind-powered EV chargers
04 December 2018  Vattenfall is set to begin rolling out its first UK
electric vehicle (EV) chargers in Norfolk this week, 

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-07 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Nice job, Steve ! Compliments to you.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 07-Dec-18 8:58:58 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


The car is here:  http://www.evalbum.com/5368

It's the result of a bet that I couldn't built an EV for £750 (1000$). 
It is basically an urban run around as most of my driving is in and 
around Milton Keynes which has the highest density of ev charging 
points in the UK and many are free! It became part of my PhD studies. 
The area is full of gently rolling hills and is not flat which would 
help and yes power consumption is often higher in one direction than 
the other.


I simulated many donor cars and came to the conclusion that the biggest 
factors in efficiency were weight and friction/aerodynamic losses. 
Interestingly if you look at the weight of European vehicles of the 
last 20 years today's vehicles have doubled in weight compared to their 
20 year ancestors despite the use of lightweight materials. Some of it 
is improved safety but a lot of it are the extra gizmos that are deemed 
essential for today's market. Do away with those and the weight comes 
tumbling down.  So I selected a Reliant Kitten and found one that was 
being used as a chicken coop in a barn.


The result is a vehicle that weighs only 545kg including batteries 
which means I'm not expending energy moving things like electric 
windows, power steering etc etc. There is no wiring loom just a CAN bus 
and power and all the ancillaries are controlled by multiple micros. 
All the lights etc are LED including the headlamps, heating is done by 
taking the hot air from the motor cooling fan and ducting it into the 
vehicle. The whole vehicle is designed to be as miserly as possible. 
That is why it gets the good figures. Unfortunately the car has the 
aerodynamics of a brick but there may be some room for improvement.


It has also allowed me to do some clever power management to get the 
most from the batteries. One big improvement is the 22x 2600F 
ultracapacitor pack that is connected in parallel with the batteries. 
These smooth out the power surges and allow more power to be harvested 
during regen because they can accept higher charging currents than the 
battery packs. End result is better battery life and the ability to 
extract a bit more capacity.  It is quite fun watching the fuel gauge 
fill up when braking.


Anyway I can cope with manually winding the window up and down, locking 
the doors individually etc for the 1.5p (2 cents) a mile it costs to 
run. Especially as gas/diesel is around £6 (7.2$) a gallon in the UK!


If I had the aerodynamics of a Leaf, I'm sure I could get the figure to 
around 100 wh/mile. Not totally sure it would be cost effective though!




Steve


On 07/12/2018 15:34, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Steve,
Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible 
(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get 
with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?

Peri




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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-07 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Steve,
Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible 
(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get 
with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 06-Dec-18 9:28:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

It could well be. The charts you refer to have so many caveats that the 
figures are only a very rough guide.  This is one of the major problem 
of calculating range.


The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average 
is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the 
distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries 
to travel the distance. This is not the same as the amount of power 
from the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same power that the 
motor uses which causes further complications. The distances btw are 
also near the theoretical maximum that my battery pack can support so 
that the effect of the battery capacity curve cancels out.


If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly. 
I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is 
non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop 
to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted 
coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the 
rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does  look pretty on 
the dash though.


Get the Leafspy and start collecting your own data and use that to 
build up the values for your car. That will indicate exactly what is 
happening.



Cheers

Steve


On 06/12/2018 16:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).


I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot 
of stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the 
efficiency of the car.


I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising 
and there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% 
difference is consumption in my experience.


I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps 
compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate 
from.


Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting 
instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the 
chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system 
that monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that 
will force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. 
What is interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well 
consistent but the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  
LiION batteries are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage 
except for the two extremes.


So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity 
estimate from the voltage can and does vary.


So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing 
power has gone.


I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.

Definitely worth getting more accurate data.



On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and 
a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
health

and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the 
brakes

don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:



Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 
miles.

The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consid

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-06 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).


I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Heath" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" 
Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of 
stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency 
of the car.


I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and 
there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference 
is consumption in my experience.


I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps 
compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate 
from.


Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting 
instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the 
chargers and these agree within 1%.  I also have a voltage system that 
monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if  that will 
force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is 
interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but 
the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.  LiION batteries 
are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two 
extremes.


So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity 
estimate from the voltage can and does vary.


So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power 
has gone.


I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.

Definitely worth getting more accurate data.



On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
health

and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
capacity.

You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
issues
are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the 
brakes

don't get warmed/worked out much.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:



Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly 
over

time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter 
and
you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be 
able
to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these 
things.
I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to 
work
(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge 
at

home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to 
home

in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV 


wrote:

Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
you're assuming is
100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the 
table

in
the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of 
my

calculations are unchanged.

Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend 
it,

I
might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least 
I'd

know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: &quo

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-06 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Getting LeafSpy and an OBD2 adapter: I've thought of that before, sounds 
like a good idea. I just looked at the app description and they no 
longer make any recommendations of brands. Anyone care to make a 
recommendation of one they bought recently and works with the Leaf?


As for brake drag, it's possible, but wouldn't that be reflected in the 
kWh used? Besides, it seems that 3.2 miles / kWh is pretty good for 
winter city driving.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Haudy Kazemi" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 06-Dec-18 7:23:42 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a 
quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed 
health and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 
kWh capacity.


You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise, 
including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake 
issues are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because 
the brakes don't get warmed/worked out much.



On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly 
over

>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>better again.
>
>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter 
and

>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these 
things.
>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to 
work

>(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
>home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
>work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
>miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
>in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>
>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV 


>wrote:
>>
>>Cor,
>>
>>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
>>you're assuming is
>>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>
>>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>
>>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the 
table

>>in
>>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of 
my

>>calculations are unchanged.
>>
>>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>
>>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend 
it,

>>I
>>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
>>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>
>>Peri
>>
>>-- Original Message --
>>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
>>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>
>> >Capacity bars are not linear.
>> >The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>> >Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken 
(quoting

>> >from memory)
>> >So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so 
less

>> >than 15kWh.
>> >Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>> >My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 
quickly

>>to
>> >10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>> >Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at 
work

>> >with still 3 bars left….
>> >I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X
>>bars
>> >is so many kWh left.
>> >GIDs are a better m

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Thanks, Collin.
That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Collin Kidder" 
To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 


Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles.
The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to
be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly over
time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
better again.

I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter and
you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be able
to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these things.
I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to work
(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge at
home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home and
work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18 required
miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to home
in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which
you're assuming is
100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table 
in

the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my
calculations are unchanged.

Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it, 
I

might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd
know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

>Capacity bars are not linear.
>The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
>Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting
>from memory)
>So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less
>than 15kWh.
>Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly 
to

>10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work
>with still 3 bars left….
>I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X 
bars

>is so many kWh left.
>GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better
>judge what your Leaf is doing.
>Hope this helps,
>Cor.
>
>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>From: Peri Hartman via EV
>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: Peri Hartman
>Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>
>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my
>2011
>Leaf ?
>
>Temp about 45F
>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level 
is

>9 capacity bars)
>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>Duration about 1 hr.
>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.
>
>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>
>According to
>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>
>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, 
the

>battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>
>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 
17.

>
>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
>range.
>
>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>
>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.
>
>Peri
>-- next part --
>An HTML attachment wa

Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Cor,

So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars, which 
you're assuming is

100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?

In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.

My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the table in 
the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest of my 
calculations are unchanged.


Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.

If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend it, I 
might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least I'd 
know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


Capacity bars are not linear.
The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100% capacity.
Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken (quoting 
from memory)
So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so less 
than 15kWh.

Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12 quickly to 
10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at work 
with still 3 bars left….
I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say X bars 
is so many kWh left.
GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much better 
judge what your Leaf is doing.

Hope this helps,
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 
2011

Leaf ?

Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is
9 capacity bars)
Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).

45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total
range.

What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.

Peri
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Um, I'm getting a drop closer to 50%.

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Cc:
Sent: 05-Dec-18 3:19:24 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance


The range in my Mitsubishi i-MiEV drops about 10% in cold weather too.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2018, at 8:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 
2011 Leaf ?


Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level 
is 9 capacity bars)

Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, 
the battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).


45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total 
range.


What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had 
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.


Peri
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[EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

2018-12-04 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of my 2011 
Leaf ?


Temp about 45F
Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge level is 
9 capacity bars)

Average 3.2 miles / kWh
Duration about 1 hr.
Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage meter.

For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
Total: 5.75 kWh.

According to
https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.

Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and 9, the 
battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).


45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be around 17.

Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated total 
range.


What happened to the other 4 kWh?

And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf has had 
miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know why.


Peri
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[EVDL] "dry spell" over?

2018-12-04 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Bruce,

It's seems you are finding a wide variety of EV articles these days, 
having a positive disposition. I recall you stating not so many months 
ago that there was a lot of negative press with little new, interesting 
material.  Do you feel that has flipped?


Peri
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

2018-12-04 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I'm really surprised he didn't consider the risk. There have been so 
many li-ion battery fires and for so many years that it's hard to 
ignore.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 04-Dec-18 3:39:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

He has a you tube channel called Rich Rebuilds where he documented the 
whole thing. They didn’t even tie the batteries down they were just 
laying in the back


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2018, at 10:57 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:


Listen especially to the end of that video.
Not only no BMS, but also no coolant, for which the Tesla pack was 
designed.

I presume it was (over) charging the cells when it went into runaway,
turning the cells into something resembling live ammo (per the 
question

from the FD).
Saw the burning cell bounce off the front of the fire truck?
Cor.

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018, 7:51 PM Jay Summet via EV wrote:


Video of a pair of 444-cell Tesla modules going into thermal runaway
after being used to replace lead acid batteries.

It had no BMS on it (I suspect it was charging when it burst into 
flames).


They have video from the surveillance camera system and it's quite an
impressive show


https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/fail-of-the-week-how-not-to-electric-vehicle/


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Car Talk sez EV's big issue is battery failure

2018-12-02 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Nice to see Ray of Car Talk giving a neutral, if not positive, spin for 
EVs.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 01-Dec-18 10:26:11 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Car Talk sez EV's big issue is battery failure




https://www.telegram.com/news/20181201/car-talk-electric-cars-good-lower-maintenance-option
Car Talk: Electric cars a good, lower-maintenance option
20181201  Ray Magliozzi

DEAR CAR TALK: Electric motors have been around a long time. They are 
simple
devices with few moving parts. I am an old man, tired of car 
maintenance and

in need of a low-maintenance, reliable vehicle. It would seem that an
all-electric car is the solution to my problem. Are there excessive
maintenance issues with e-cars? Serious reliability problems? Am I 
missing

anything that I need to know? -- John


RAY: I don’t think you’re missing anything, John. You’re right. 
Electric
motors are simple. While we’re still in the relatively early stages of 
the
electric-car revolution, hybrid electric cars have been around for 
decades
now. And the electric motors in hybrid cars have been pretty 
trouble-free.


The bigger issue is battery failure. But most electric cars come with 
eight-
or 10-year warranties on the battery. So even that’s not a big deal. 
And
presumably, eight to 10 years from now, replacement batteries will be 
even

cheaper.

There are still things that can go wrong with electric cars, though. 
They

have electronic components, like computers, screens, safety systems and
sensors that can fail. They also have mechanical parts that will wear 
out,

like tires, shocks and wiper blades.

But you’ll never have to replace a hose, weld an exhaust system or fix 
an
oil leak. And your brake pads will last much longer, because 
regenerative
braking (which uses the moving wheels as a generator when you slow 
down)

cuts down on your use of your brake pads. So if you’re looking for a
lower-maintenance car, and you can make do with a couple of hundred 
miles of

range before recharging, an EV is for you.


For good, basic transportation, we like the Chevy Bolt [EV], the Nissan 
Leaf
[EV], the Hyundai Kona [EV] and the Kia Niro [EV]. All four should get 
you

more than 200 miles on a charge. As an added benefit, you’ll be able to
“refuel” your car in your own driveway. So you’ll never have to visit a 
gas
station again ... unless you have a sudden urge to buy a pack of gum or 
use

a filthy restroom.

Got a question about cars? Write to Ray in care of King Features, 628
Virginia Drive, Orlando, FL 32803, or email by visiting the Car Talk 
website

at www.cartalk.com .
[© telegram.com]
...
https://www.cartalk.com/contact-us


https://www.limaohio.com/news/330641/car-talk-electric-cars-are-a-good-lower-maintenance-option
Car Talk: Electric cars are a good, lower-maintenance option
November 30, 2018
I am an old man, tired of car maintenance and in need of a 
low-maintenance,
reliable vehicle. It would seem that an all-electric car is the 
solution to

my problem ...
https://d31029zd06w0t6.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2018/11/web1_RAY-MAGLIOZZI-4.jpg


https://www.google.com/search?q=Car+Talk%3A+Electric+cars

All About Electric Vehicles | Car Talk
https://www.cartalk.com/content/all-about-electric-vehicles
Electric vehicle buying guide, explainers, FAQs, pros and cons, and 
more.
Our EV area has heaps of useful info if you're thinking of buying one-- 
or

were just ...

Blog Post | Electric Cars on the Move: The View From Europe | Car Talk
https://www.cartalk.com/content/electric-cars-move-view-europe
Renault (and fellow French carmaker Peugeot) stopped selling cars in 
the
U.S. decades ago, which is why we don't get the electric ZOE Z.E. in 
the

American ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

2018-11-10 Thread Peri Hartman via EV




-- Original Message --
From: "JoeS. via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "JoeS." 
Sent: 10-Nov-18 9:10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, 
Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR


/Chris wrote: I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger 
in

handling an EV
in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to 
get

two parts of the body at different potentials./
I think the issue is ensuring a body doesn't complete the circuit 
between the two battery poles. That is, if you were to cut some cables, 
who knows what route the current would take. It could injure the aid 
workers or the occupants.


For that very reason I've always been mystified how someone swimming in 
a

pool not touching anything could be electrocuted...
This case is different since the power to the lighting or other 
electrical equipment is *not* floating. It is relative to ground.




-
Joe Siudzinski
--
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Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

2018-11-09 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor 
and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Roger Stockton via EV" 
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" 
Cc: "Roger Stockton" 
Sent: 09-Nov-18 3:20:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go 
digital)



Tom Keenan wrote:


I have a 2013 Leaf, and the AM radio works fine. Same with my old 2005
Prius.  I use the AM radio on a daily basis during my commute to work.
Not sure if it is perhaps an issue with certain radio suppliers/car
manufacturers?


I suspect it has more to do with the cost savings of not including AM 
capability (probably perceived to be relatively unused and therefore 
easily eliminated without much outcry) than any real technical issue.


AM works fine in my wife's 2016 Leaf and in my conversion; there really 
doesn't seem to be any reason for it not to work in any plugin, unless 
one doesn't want it to work...


Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Automaker pitches (Call for nationwide U.S. EV Mandate) woo

2018-10-27 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
It is a better article, but it's still not clear what GM's true motive 
is. It says: "unified standard," but that new standard would be lower 
than California's current standard.


Is this a gamble compromise, on behalf of GM? Outcomes could be:
- retain the existing standards; probably costs GM more than lower 
standards.
- have two standards; GM explicitly states it doesn't want this, too 
expensive to manage.
- have a lower universal standard; a calculated risk: this is a test of 
California's authority, which could end up in the supreme court. But, if 
successful, probably more profitable for GM than the other two options.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Cc: "paul dove" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 27-Oct-18 4:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Automaker pitches (Call for nationwide U.S. EV 
Mandate) woo



This article spells it out better.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep.com/amp/1772182002

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 26, 2018, at 9:06 PM, Mark Abramowitz  
wrote:


I’m not following you. Lower emission standards are MORE costly, 
right?


Even if not, I can see how you want to call it a bailout, but I guess 
that’s the case with any regulatory scheme. But I never hear it called 
a bailout.


As far as Tesla, it’s hard to say the impact. Up until a certain 
point, the more folks out there with the new technology, everybody 
benefits. At some point (have we reached it yet?), these things make a 
difference in the opposite direction.


But this is what we want, isn’t it? We’ve put in lots of incentives 
for electric drive, and gee, companies are taking advantage of them!


Weakening of other standards is another story.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On Oct 26, 2018, at 9:36 AM, paul dove  wrote:

Read between the lines. They want to have lower emission standards on 
their trucks and SUVs so it will lower the cost and increase profits 
to supplement their electric vehicle programs. Same thing as a 
bailout. What does that do to companies like Tesla.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 26, 2018, at 10:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
 wrote:


I appreciate the cynicism, but I find no evidence of that.

That article is old, but I suspect that the data still applies. It 
says nothing about a government bailout.


So they are losing money on the Bolt. The Prius lost money for 10 
years, but is Toyota’s most popular car. These folks are in it for 
the long game, and have been investing in both types of EVs.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

On Oct 26, 2018, at 4:04 AM, Paul Dove via EV  
wrote:


Of course they do because they are losing money on the bolt. Need 
another government bailout.

https://www.inverse.com/article/32239-why-gm-loses-money-chevy-bolt

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 26, 2018, at 2:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV  
wrote:




https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-26/gm-breaks-with-trump-in-call-for-national-electric-car-mandate
GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate
October 25, 2018  Automaker pitches U.S. rule to spur more EV 
sales through
2030 ... GM says a nationwide program could put 7 million 
long-range
electric cars on the road and slash 375 million tons of carbon 
dioxide
emissions by 2030, compared with existing zero-emission vehicle 
mandates ...



GM Wants Trump Administration To Back National Electric Vehicle 
...

International Business Times-31 minutes ago
General Motors Co said on Friday it wants the Trump administration 
to back a
nationwide program to boost the sale of zero emission vehicles 
like electric

...

GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate
Bloomberg-42 minutes ago
The Trump administration wants to end California's requirement for
automakers to sell more electric cars in the state each year. 
America's

biggest automaker has ...

GM proposes nationwide zero-emissions vehicle sales mandate
WHSV-1 hour ago
California sets the requirements based on a complex formula that 
considers
the total number of vehicles sold by an automaker and gives 
credits for

fully electric ...

General Motors CEO: We call for federal electric and zero-emission 
...

USA TODAY-1 hour ago
It will create jobs through the expansion of battery and electric 
vehicle
research and development and production, improve the environment 
and make

electric ...


https://www.google.com/search?q=Breaks+With+Trump+in+Call+for+National+Electric+Car+Mandate


2 hours ago - The Trump administration wants to end California's 
requirement
for automakers to sell more electric cars in the state each year. 
America's

...

GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate ...
www.wiredfocus.com › electric cars
51 mins ago

GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate ...
www.techheadlines.us › electric cars
51 mins ago

[dated]
Trump's rollback could zap California's electric car industry ...

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-26 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
With half the population living in urban areas, including suburbs, we're 
talking about a lot of people who don't have room for more than two 
vehicles even if they want more. Even two, though, gives you a much 
better fit than one-for-all.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 26-Oct-18 10:23:53 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

I donno.  My family of four before the kids left had 5.  Not a one cost 
more
than $5k.  Salvage Priuses for daily use, plus a gramma's hand-me-down  
Geo

Metro and an old Ford van for occasional towing and hauling.  And a few
un-registered old EV projects out back.  The entire fleet cost much 
less

than a single average new American car.

We drove a vehicle appropriate for the trip.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via 
EV

Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

Most people I know don’t have multiple cars for multiple purposes, 
unless

they are wealthy.

Most do have a “one car fits all”.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

On Oct 25, 2018, at 6:58 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:


Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what
Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big
problem is need for a variety of uses.

What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something
that works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out
to dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the
day, and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella
might be able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people.
The latter two? I doubt it.


You're right; people tend to want a "universal" solution; one vehicle 
to

do everything.

But that's not really practical. It forces compromises so the vehicle 
is

not really good at anything. You see luxury pickup trucks that can't
really haul anything, or huge SUVs being used for single-person 
commuting.


So most people have more than one car. Each vehicle can be more 
closely

optimzed to the job it spends most of its time doing.

One hopes that EVs will often be these second vehicles. If it's for
commuting, it doesn't need long range, or high seating capacity, or 
towing

capabilities. The owner will have another vehicle for that.

--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Automaker pitches (Call for nationwide U.S. EV Mandate) woo

2018-10-26 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I don't particularly find GM to be altruistic. Am I right, reading 
between the lines, the GM fears a repeat of the Japanese takeover in the 
'70s ? This time around, VW and other European manufacturers are ramping 
up to an all-EV fleet. If they succeed, my guess is they will outsell 
gas cars, even in the U.S. GM is sniffing the wind.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 25-Oct-18 11:03:14 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Automaker pitches (Call for nationwide U.S. EV Mandate) 
woo





https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-26/gm-breaks-with-trump-in-call-for-national-electric-car-mandate
GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate
October 25, 2018  Automaker pitches U.S. rule to spur more EV sales 
through

2030 ... GM says a nationwide program could put 7 million long-range
electric cars on the road and slash 375 million tons of carbon dioxide
emissions by 2030, compared with existing zero-emission vehicle 
mandates ...



GM Wants Trump Administration To Back National Electric Vehicle ...
International Business Times-31 minutes ago
General Motors Co said on Friday it wants the Trump administration to 
back a
nationwide program to boost the sale of zero emission vehicles like 
electric

...

GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate
Bloomberg-42 minutes ago
The Trump administration wants to end California's requirement for
automakers to sell more electric cars in the state each year. America's
biggest automaker has ...

GM proposes nationwide zero-emissions vehicle sales mandate
WHSV-1 hour ago
California sets the requirements based on a complex formula that 
considers

the total number of vehicles sold by an automaker and gives credits for
fully electric ...

General Motors CEO: We call for federal electric and zero-emission ...
USA TODAY-1 hour ago
It will create jobs through the expansion of battery and electric 
vehicle
research and development and production, improve the environment and 
make

electric ...


https://www.google.com/search?q=Breaks+With+Trump+in+Call+for+National+Electric+Car+Mandate


2 hours ago - The Trump administration wants to end California's 
requirement
for automakers to sell more electric cars in the state each year. 
America's

...

GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate ...
www.wiredfocus.com › electric cars
51 mins ago

GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate ...
www.techheadlines.us › electric cars
51 mins ago

[dated]
Trump's rollback could zap California's electric car industry ...
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article215984510.html
Aug 2, 2018

Trump is going after California's clean car mandate | TechCrunch
https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/.../trump-is-going-after-californias-clean-car-mandate...
Jul 23, 2018

California wants more electric cars. The Trump administration doesn't 
...

www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-fuel-standards-fight-20180202-story.html
Feb 2, 2018

Electric Vehicles: Government Mandates Threaten Customers ...
https://www.nationalreview.com/.../electric-cars-government-mandates-threaten-custo...
Feb 26, 2018




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-23 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
The Stella is an impressive car. I did read the specs, though not 
carefully. The fault is my assumption that climbing, say, 1000m would 
take too much energy. In fact, the climbing by itself probably would 
take between 1 and 2kwh. That leaves plenty. Wow !

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 23-Oct-18 10:03:07 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

Peri I doubt you have completely looked at the specs of the Stella 
cars.  They have huge trunks and are touted as "Family Cars" basically 
a small SUV.  They use a 15kw battery which without solar has a 400 
mile range.  So they would charge quickly just on Chademo or CCS.  Just 
because a car is solar doesn't mean you have to only use solar.  Ad to 
that it simply has a very long range and is good for everything  but 
towing.  I think a dead deer would fit in the trunk. It is certainly 
the perfect mad max vehicle for when there is no gas.  This vehicle 
will still be able to go 400 miles after every 10 hours in the sun and 
be able to go 45 mph infinitely while the sun shines. The first Stella 
easily made it up the coast on Route 1 and 101  LA to San Francisco up 
and down all those hills.Lawrence Rhodes



Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 22:33:59 +
From: "Peri Hartman" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8


What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that
works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to
dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day,
and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might 
be

able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter
two? I doubt it.

Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make 
arrangements

to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot
of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since
solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate.



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[EVDL] unfurling panels [was: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars]

2018-10-22 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think what would be interesting, perhaps not so practical, would be to 
design an EV for aerodynamcis. But, when parked, it would "unfurl" a 
large collection of solar panels which could be more-or-less aimed.


It would still require having a fairly large battery, so this isn't the 
same sort of thing as the Stella. Depending on how much wind the panels 
might catch, it might need stabilizers, similar to what excavators use. 
I can imagine all sorts of geometries.


Even on a dull Seattle december day, this might capture enough energy 
for the daily commute to never need plugging in.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Bobby Keeland via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Bobby Keeland" 
Sent: 22-Oct-18 6:47:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars 
(charging while parked)



My wife and I are on the waiting list for a 220 mile range Model 3. We
don't need the 310 mile range or the high performance.

When we travel it is usually by motorhome. I've thought about towing 
the EV

on a trailer that is covered with solar panels. A recharge while boon
docking would be no problem.
BobK

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:41 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 


wrote:

ALL EV's are predominantly charged while parked.  Solar panels on EV's 
are
not for propulsion power but for battery charging during the 8 to 16 
hour
solar day while parked in the sun, not just the 30 minutes the car is 
in

use.  This is for those without a dedicated charger at home.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Alan Arrison via EV
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 7:26 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Alan Arrison 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

The numbers don't add up for solar panels on automobiles, never have, 
never

will.

This has been proven time and time again.

There is no way it gets even 20 miles per kWh under anything but 
perfect

conditions and slow speeds.

And the energy from the panels again is under perfect conditions.

It is so light because it has almost no crash protection.

Al



On 10/21/2018 3:09 PM, Larry Gales via EV wrote:
> When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different
> results from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with
> the assumption that the Dutch students who have won most of the 
solar
> car records are not actually lying.  So, the specs for the 4 
passenger

> Stella Lux include these:
>
>
>
> Length
>
> 178 inches
>
> Width
>
> 69 inches
>
> Height
>
> 44 inches
>
> Weight
>
> 826 pounds
>
> Battery Capacity
>
> 15 kWh
>
> Motor Efficiency
>
> 97 percent
>
> Range on sunny day (Netherlands)
>
> 621 miles
>
> Range on sunny day (Australia)
>
> 683 miles
>
> Range at night (on battery)
>
> 403 miles
>
> Top Speed
>
> 77 mph
>
>
>
> So, if the range at night is 403 miles and the battery is 15 kWh, 
that

> translates to 26.8 miles/kWh.  Let us suppose that is under ideal
> conditions, and that a more realistic value is 20 miles/kWh.  The
> solar PV array is 1.5 kW, so a more realistic value under real world
> conditions is
> 0.75 kW.  In Seattle, where I live, which has about the worst solar
> potential in the USA, the average solar intensity in July is 6.3 sun
> hours.
> So, (0.75 * 6.3 * 20) = 94.5 miles.  If we usually travel only 40
> miles/day, I could easily see traveling 200 miles on accumulated 
solar

> energy, after, say, a week of 40 miles/day travel.  And given that 5
> months/year we average over 60% of the July values we can travel 
about

> 60 miles/day just on stored sunlight from the car.  And the 5
> passenger Stella Vie is just as efficient.
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 12:09 AM brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://qz.com/1423288/why-dont-we-have-solar-powered-cars-physics/
>> The physics of why we don’t have solar-powered cars October 15, 
2018

>> Michael J. Coren
>>
>> [image
>> 
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image1-e1539387897807.p

>> ng
>> The Sono Motors Car
>> ]
>>
>> The nuclear furnace at the center of solar system powers almost
>> everything on earth. Photosynthesis, wind, and even fossil fuels
>> (once decomposed living matter) all derive in some way from the 
star we

>> call the Sun.
>>
>> So why isn’t it enough to power our cars?
>>
>> It’s all about energy density: how much energy falls on a surface
>> relative to how much is consumed. We can have solar powered e-bikes
>> that cover thousands of miles, sailboat drones that cross oceans,
>> even ultra-light aircraft that circumnavigate the globe. What do 
they

>> have in common?
>> They’re
>> all very light, slow, and consume a trickle of electrons. Solar
>> panels generate just enough electricity to keep them moving.
>>
>> For anything weighing thousands of pounds, like a car, the energy
>> equation is daunting. A few intrepid carmakers are slapping solar
>> panels on their vehicles anyway. Few have gotten very far. The 
German
>> startup Sono Motors is adding 330 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars

2018-10-21 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
The Stella is an awesome example of what can be done. Aside from what 
Lee says, which I think is one area of resistance, another big problem 
is need for a variety of uses.


What I mean is I (or you or the huddling masses...) want something that 
works for a 15 mile solo commute, works to take the family out to 
dinner, works to go skiing (hiking, fishing, hunting, ...) for the day, 
and works to go out of town for the weekend. I think the Stella might be 
able to do the first two, for a large percentage of people. The latter 
two? I doubt it.


Now, for going out of town, it wouldn't be too hard to make arrangements 
to easily pick up a rental. The other case gets harder. You have a lot 
of elevation gain, meaning you'll need a pretty hefty battery since 
solar isn't going to be anywhere near adequate. That means the car gets 
super heavy - like a Tesla - and now the benefits of the Stella are 
impossible. This usage, too, could be handled by a rental. But I doubt 
most people are willing add two hours to an already long day in order to 
use a rental. On top of that, most rental companies don't permit you to 
drive on unpaved roads.


If we, eventually, have autonomous vehicles, perhaps you'll be able to 
own a car for your special purpose activities and fetch one for your 
daily usage. Then, Stella-like vehicles become a real option, I think.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 21-Oct-18 2:56:18 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The physics of slapping solar panels on cars


Larry Gales via EV wrote:
When I look at the Stella Lux and Stella Vie, I get very different 
results
from the negative views of solar powered cars.  I start with the 
assumption
that the Dutch students who have won most of the solar car records are 
not

actually lying.


The problem is that most people assume that EVs must be exactly like 
ICEs. Typical ICEs today weigh a ton or more, and have the aerodynamics 
of a brick. All those edgy lines, huge grilles, big fat tires, and 
rough bottom mean it takes lot of horsepower to drag it down the road.


The automakers are building EVs the same way. Big, heavy, poor 
aerodynamics.


But there are other ways to do it. Race cars and airplanes are much 
lighter, and have aerodynamics based on performance rather than 
styling. Amory Lovins has been championing the "hypercar" concept for 
decades. The basic idea is that if you halve the weight, and cut the 
aerodynamic losses in half, it takes 1/4th as much energy to push it 
down the road. Yet it can be just as strong and safe, by using modern 
materials and construction techniques.


EVs like Stella Lux and Stella Vie demonstrate how successful this 
strategy can be. When you have a 4-passenger car that weighs 826 lbs 
and 1/3 the aerodynamic losses, solar power becomes a viable way to 
power it!


-- Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

2018-10-19 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
You can look at this two ways. One is that the petroleum industry will 
do everything to protect their base and kill EVs. The other is that some 
may recognize that their days relying on petroleum are limited and they 
need to branch out. Those who do it right will be big winners. I won't 
say it's a bed of roses when mega corporations get involved. They will 
be in it to make a profit and, with that, will come politics and less 
consumer intimacy. But they will make the industry grow.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Lawrence Winiarski" ; "Electric 
Vehicle Discussion List" 

Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Sent: 19-Oct-18 4:36:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

You’re too late - Total bought the biggest EV charging company in the 
UK.


- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

On Oct 19, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:


Well if the Idea of Homicidal, Petroleum producers, having control of 
the EV industry doesn't bother you
How do you feel about the Tobacco Institute taking over Cancer 
Research?




 From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla...Can you imagine what could have happened?

The fact that Bonnie and Clyde and other criminals of the 30's liked a 
Ford or Chevy didn't hurt those companies.  The mafia still likes 
Suburbans.  It's because of how well the car meets their needs That 
they buy stock or use the product shouldn't matter.  Lawrence Rhodes..



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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

2018-10-16 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Ok, so maybe they failed in that goal - to provide a car affordable to 
the masses. But does it matter? It does to you, I understand and 
empathise. And to me. But in the big EV picture, as long as they can 
stay in business and sell the model 3's, they are helping the EV 
mission. As long as they have a solid demand for their product, they are 
making it possible for cheaper and cheaper models to become available. 
For that, I am very excited.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 16-Oct-18 2:04:23 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu


On 16 Oct 2018 at 19:57, robert winfield via EV wrote:

Maybe you forget how few years Tesla has been selling EV'sMaybe you 
don't know

what you are talking about when you declare "they failed"


No, I don't forget.  Yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Tesla has done lots of good things.  They went where few automakers 
refused
to go, showing them the way.  They built cars that in many ways are 
some of

the best around, regardless of energy source.  For that, I admire them.
Don't misunderstand me on that.

But when they set out to build a car that people of modest means (like 
me)

could afford, I'm sorry, they failed.

Maybe to all of you, $46k is chump change.  I'm glad for you.  But for
millions of people worldwide, that's a lot of money.  The low income 
sector

is the fastest growing class worldwide, and for SURE it is here in the
States

When a person is bringing in $25k or $30k or $35k a year and trying to
support a family, and I personally know people in that situation, do 
you

really want to encourage him to buy a $46k car that he can't afford?

And don't give me that nose-in-the-air rubbish about how they chose 
their
lot.  Sometimes you do everything right and you still get what life 
hands

you.

I gave you an example of what I consider an affordable car.  You 
dismissed
it and said it wasn't comparable.  That's not the point. If you can't 
afford
the more expensive car, it doesn't matter how good it is.  You're 
buying the

cheaper one.

The good news is that you're not totally shut out of the EV world.  
Used

Nissan Leaves and a few other models are now available in the US for
reasonably affordable prices.  I don't know about other countries 
though,

nor do I know how long the present glut of cheap Leaves will last.

I haven't driven a Model 3, probably never will, but I'm sure it's a 
great

car.  Maybe it really is comparable to an BMW or Mercedes.

But blast it, THAT'S NOT WHAT TESLA PROMISED FOR THE MODEL 3.  They 
promised

an affordable EV.  Most of us assumed they meant something more or less
comparable to a mid-range Toyota.  But that's not what Tesla delivered.
Instead, they gave us a somewhat cut down Model S that doesn't get to 
use

Superchargers for free.

Some of us are not impressed.

In many other efforts, Tesla succeeded, but not in that one.  Maybe 
someday

they will.  I hope so.

And that's all I have to say on this subject.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr

2018-10-15 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I agree, it's politics. But for a different reason. Currently there 
aren't enough EVs for an EV tax to accumulate anything significant. Yet, 
as few as there are, there are loud voices saying it's unfair for EV 
users to use the roads without paying their share of taxes. Many 
governments expect the share of EVs to grow in the future. At some 
point, the number will be large enough that those loud voices will have 
a point - and there will be noticeably less funds from the gas tax to 
maintain roads. I think what we're seeing is a proactive response. It's 
easier to establish the tax now, when mostly early adopters are buying 
EVs, than later, when they will get an outrage for adding a new tax to a 
large number of people.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Winiarski via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lawrence Winiarski" ; "EVDL 
Administrator" 

Sent: 15-Oct-18 5:27:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr



I think it's politics.
Mississippi's gas tax hasn't been raised since 1989!!!.Only 
Alaska's tax (1970's era) is older.   At $18.79 centsit's also the 4th 
lowest in the country.   (average is about 31 cents)
Now they are having some real problems.  Across the state, residents 
now have to circumvent nearly 500 closed bridges that have been 
declared unsafe.


So now you raise the gas tax a little so you are at least "close" to 
the average state and fix the roads.right??...yeah it mightbe a 
little unpopular among your republican anti-tax friends but...the 
bridge is closed???   we've got to fix it right???
..Nope, not when you are a proud Mississippian who believes God will 
come to their rescue and pay the taxes for them.
.instead you play political games and look to blame godless EV's and 
hybrids, who are happy to bend over and accept theblame for 30 years of 
neglectand shake out their lunch money for 0.001 percent of the 
problembut at least youdodged the problem until a few hundred more 
bridges get closed..




https://itep.org/how-long-has-it-been-since-your-state-raised-its-gas-tax-0518/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mississippi-closed-bridges-crumbling-infrastructure-threaten-lives-livelihoods-n892571



 From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: EVDL Administrator 
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVtax: $150yr

This isn't about revenue.  The piddling amount it's raising clearly
demonstrates that.  It's a fine.

It's not even a fine for trying to beat the system.

These politicians aren't just pro-business, they're actively and 
vehemently
anti-environment.  If you're pro-environment, even mildly so, this is a 
way

from them to punish you.

In other words, they're trolling us.

I won't be at all surprised if they extend their "green fine" to small, 
fuel-

efficient pure ICEVs sometime in the future.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

2018-10-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
According to this website, the average total price paid for a new car is 
$31500.

https://www.concannonbc.com/how-much-does-a-typical-american-actually-pay-for-a-car/

That average includes luxury models so I suspect the median price is 
somewhat lower. Either way, I would consider 46K substantially higher, 
meaning high priced for the average buyer of a new car.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 14-Oct-18 6:19:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu




On 10/14/2018 04:33 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
I don’t know where you get this kind of thinking. They are not high 
priced cars. Mine was $46,000. A Toyota Highlander is $42,000 and a 
Subaru Ascent is $46,000. If you get a comparable car you will pay 
about the same.


Interest piqued by your seemingly low price for a low end Model 3, I 
just checked the Tesla website.  The lowest priced available Model 3  
to order is $49,000.  Delivery, etc is another $1,200. State sales tax 
will likely be about $3,000.  So, $54,200.  Order by 10/15/18 to be 
assured of delivery in 2018 and you should get a $7,500 federal tax 
credit though the $54,200 will be due before delivery time.  Final 
amount: $46,700.  Close enough to your quote.  OTOH, that does not 
include AutoPilot.  A Tesla should not be bought without AutoPilot, 
IMHO.


There has been some recent scuttlebutt about some Model 3s being 
available as "inventory" cars at a discount of a $1,000 or more.  The 
inventory cars are not likely to be without options.  That is, they may 
not get below $46,000.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 45 li-ion battery-making gigfactories around the world

2018-10-10 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
But it does add hope to having cheaper backup batteries for homes and 
power leveling.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 10-Oct-18 9:01:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 45 li-ion battery-making gigfactories around 
the world



Jay Summet via EV wrote:

However, the availability of used / salvage large format cells will
increase greatly as more and more EV's are crashed or reach end of 
life

for other reasons.


That's true. It benefits hobby EV'ers like me. :-)

But, the hobby EV market is almost dead. It seems that no one wants to 
build their own EV when they can buy a new one from a major automaker 
with huge subsidies, or get a used one dirt cheap.


-- Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Big Batteries in 1957

2018-10-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
1000 miles on a bike: the limiting factor isn't the battery, it's the 
butt !


-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Sent: 05-Oct-18 9:31:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Big Batteries in 1957


Robert Bruninga wrote:
This is the 101'st anniversary of Sputnick...


Sputnik was a monumental achievement. It was instrumental in putting 
mankind in space. It certainly inspired me (and I was only 7 at the 
time). Though it was just 61 years ago (not 101).



It had taps for powering the screen (90 V) and pentode
grids of the output stages (10 V), as well as the manipulator (20 V).


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I did some tinkering with tubes back in the day, and as far as I can
remember, that's mostly gibberish. A pentode has a control grid, 
screen
grids, and suppressor grids. I've never heard of a "manipulator."  
Maybe

someone else knows what that might be.


My guess is that it's a bad translation of the Russian words for 
cathode, grid, screen, suppressor, and plate (what Americans called the 
5 elements in a pentode).


As for silver zinc batteries, they do have outstanding specific 
energy.  The
downsides are limited cycle life, I think because of dendrite growth, 
and a

price like they were made out of silver, which they are.

IIRC GM used them in at least one of the Electrovairs (Corvair 
conversions)

they built back in the 1960s.


I think both Electrovairs used them. Great batteries; but only good for 
a couple hundred cycles life. Silver is expensive; but back then, its 
price was fixed by the government (like gold). And you did get the 
silver back when the batteries were recycled.


Both silver and zinc are good at growing long thin crystals. Good for 
surface area (high capacity); but bad for producing shorts. I worked 
with silvercells at Kodak in the 1970's -- they were interested in the 
silver recovery end of it (taking the charged battery apart to recover 
the silver). :-)


BAT (remember them?) also built a bragging-rights conversion EV with 
them in
the 1980s, so they could send out news releases about their 
hundreds-of-mile
range (craftily not mentioning how much the battery cost or how long 
it

would survive).


I think they actually achieved a range of over 1000 miles? Besides not 
mentioning that using a ton of silver batteries, they neglected to 
mention that the vehicle was essentially a golf cart, driven on a 
closed track at low speeds for days.


I keep wondering when someone will pile hundreds of lbs of lithium 
cells on a bicycle, and ride it 1001 miles to beat their record.

-- Imagination is your preview of life's coming attractions.
(Albert Einstein)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: magnix.aero oil-cooled e-motor for Iron-Bird Cessna

2018-10-01 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Maybe not. For cars, you need to dissipate heat at low RPM - like going 
slowly up a steep hill. Small aircraft engines typically run at 2200 RPM 
and there isn't a whole lot of variance except during takeoff, when it 
will be full speed. I suspect that it is possible to optimize on the 
cooling.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Alan Arrison via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Alan Arrison" 
Sent: 30-Sep-18 5:57:13 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: magnix.aero oil-cooled e-motor for Iron-Bird 
Cessna


More techno-babble. Electric motors are already near their theoretical 
limits.


I bet the power to weight number doesn't include the weight of the 
cooling system.


Al


On 9/30/2018 6:27 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


https://www.wired.com/story/magnix-electric-plane-motor/
A Better Motor Is the First Step Towards Electric Planes
2018-09-27  Jack Stewart

[images  /  magniX
https://media.wired.com/photos/5babccc8a2e356302119fb6b/master/w_582,c_limit/Electric-Plane-Motor-TA.jpg
Magnix is testing its new electric motor with a three-bladed aircraft
propeller, spinning on the front of a Cessna “Iron Bird” test frame

https://media.wired.com/photos/5babcd14f8a2e62d0bd5c487/master/w_532,c_limit/magni500-750SHP-motor.jpg
Magnix integrated an oil-based liquid cooling system into its motor, 
to get
rid of excess heat, which the thin air at thousands of feet up doesn't 
carry

away
]

In a white and grey laboratory, where neat runs of orange cables on 
the
walls provide a relief of color, a three-bladed propeller spins on the 
front
of a Cessna “Iron Bird” test frame. It’s eerily quiet, free of the 
buzz you
expect from a propeller-propelled aircraft. Just the whoosh of air, 
like a
ceiling fan spinning at full speed. It’s slow at first, then faster, 
to the
point that the blades blur out of vision, and only the bright chrome 
center
cone is visible, as engineers at the Magnix Systems Integration 
Laboratory
on Australia’s Gold Coast push the rig, before powering it down to a 
silent

stop.

This is the start of airframe tests for a new motor, designed for the 
coming
era of electric aviation. It’s a 350-horsepower machine that weighs 
just 110
pounds. But Magnix's engineers focus on a different metric. “We were 
able to
achieve 5 kW per kilogram,” says CEO Roei Ganzarski, about double the 
power
to weight ratio of a Tesla motor. In a car, that balance is less 
important.
At worst, a few extra pounds will add a bit of time to a 0 to 60 mph 
sprint
or knock a few miles off the car's range. But in a plane, the ongoing 
fight
with gravity demands low weight coupled with high power. “If a plane 
doesn’t
have the power to weight ratio that it needs, it simply won’t take off 
,”

Ganzarski says. "It becomes a safety issue."

And just as automakers are coming around to the idea of electric 
drivetrains
being more efficient, quieter, and more flexible, the aerospace 
industry is
doing the same. Companies like Zunum, Eviation, and even NASA with the 
new
X-57, are all exploring the idea of replacing engines, and eventually 
jets,

with electric motors. Aviation is a significant, and growing, global
contributor to climate change. Flying accounts for 12 percent of US
transportation greenhouse gas emissions. Electric planes could run 
much more
cleanly, using energy from renewable sources. They could also cut down 
on
airline's jet fuel bills, which can run up from 10 to 50 percent of 
their

operating costs.

Magnix was founded in 2009 as an R firm working on all electrical 
motors,
and has headquarters and another engineering facility in Redmond, 
Washington
to go with its Australian outpost. It recruited talent from Airbus, 
Boeing,
Tesla, and Pratt and Whitney, and quickly decided that it didn’t need 
to be

limited to research—it could build what it takes to make these flying
visions a reality.

That meant tackling the bit that puts the plane in the air, which 
involves
challenges beyond the power to weight issue. In a car, engineers can 
rely on
air for at least some cooling effect, but that doesn't work at 
thousands of
feet up, where the air is thin. So Magnix had to design and integrate 
an
oil-based liquid cooling system into its motor, to get rid of excess 
heat.

It’s also had to design its machine to be able to meet the rigorous
requirements that getting safety approved for flight entails, with a 
close
eye on materials and structural integrity. Failing in midair is a lot 
more

serious than breaking down by the side of the road.

“We haven’t invented any materials, nor how an electric motor can 
work, but

we’ve put together the combination of what materials to use, in what
configuration of coils, magnets, and liquid cooling to allow us to 
provide

that power-to-weight ratio,” Ganzarski says.

The airframe tests, where the motor has been bolted into the place a
fuel-belching engine would usually sit, in the chopped-off front of a
Cessna, will run for over 1,000 hours. Engineers are taking readings 
of 

Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

2018-09-08 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Well, does anyone have actual numbers regarding failures of Teslas? 
Overall, they've been out long enough that "we" should know if there are 
reliability problems or not. On my part, I have not heard of any 
widespread Tesla failure. What reliability problems is C.S. referring 
to?


As for C.S. other statement, I would agree one would be nuts not to 
consider a Bolt. For a lot less money you get a great car. That doesn't 
say anything bad about a Tesla, though.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "mark hanson via EV" 
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" 
Cc: "mark hanson" 
Sent: 08-Sep-18 6:34:24 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs


Hi Bob etc,



Consumer Reports said while they loved driving a Tesla model S, they 
gave it
a poor rating on reliability and preferred the Leaf and now the Bolt, 
saying

"you'd be nuts not to consider a Bolt".  Elon Musk/Tesla is the *only*
company that's putting 6800+ 21mm X 70mm itty bitty cells together in a
large EV.  When they came out with the Roadster in California, I asked 
a
Tesla salesman about the long term reliability of 6800 points of 
failure and
he said "don't think of it as 6800 points of failure, think of it as 
6800
points of redundancy".  Good spin.  Either they know something that 
*no*
other large scale vehicle manufacturer/engineering teams doesn't, or 
their
long term reliability/profitability will continue to be poor.  Knowing 
what
I know about electronic componentry, I'll put my money on large format 
cells

for large on road EV's, Bolt, Leaf, Smart, BMW etc.



Note for further info, see: www.Batteryuniversity.com EV battery
comparisons/lithium chemistries LMC Cathode, vs LiFePO4 & aluminized 
cathode

(tesla type) cells.



Best regards,

Mark





Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 18:00:28 -0400

From: Robert Bruninga 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: A comparative efficiency study of ... now

 Redundancy!

Message-ID: 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"




I've always had it beat into my pointy engineering head  to minimize



component count. Which is also why  id never own a Tesla with 6800 or



so cells in their battery.




That philosophy fails to recognize the value gained in multiple 
redundancy.


The Tesla battery of 6800 cells is far more reliable since it has 74 
cells
in PARALLEL for each 3.6volt lithium unit.  Compared to a Leaf with 
only 2

cells in parallel at each stage in the stack.



IN the Tesla the impact on any single battery failure is then only 3% 
of the

impact of a cell problem on a car with larger format cells.



I'd take the multiple redundancy of the Tesla any day.



Bob





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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 400kW (1080mph) EVSE new2 GM> (not new-tech 2others)

2018-09-06 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think it's pretty common to have 13.8kV available to a business 
location. Usually a step-down transformer is provided at site but in 
this case, they may want to use 13.8kV directly.


The other factor which could make a huge difference is load leveling 
using a large battery. That would help as long as there's a modest 
amount of time between charges.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 06-Sep-18 5:21:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 400kW (1080mph) EVSE new2 GM> (not new-tech 
2others)



On 6 Sep 2018 at 20:00, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:


Each charger would require its own electrical substation.


Really?  I'm far from an expert on electric utility issues, but 400kW 
is
about the total peak capacity of 4 recently built bloated McMansions 
(main

panel == 400 amps at 240 volts).  I don't see a substation for every 4
houses in those neighborhoods, but maybe I'm missing something.   And 
of
course those houses aren't all running at peak load all the time, 
either.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 400kW (1080mph) EVSE new2 GM> (not new-tech 2others)

2018-09-06 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
This is exciting. I think this will push the EV sales point past the 
early adopters part of the bell curve. For people who only own one car, 
can't charge at home, and drive long distances often enough not to want 
to rent, this will make a big difference - if GM really follows through. 
I think that's a large number of people.


It also will eliminate one of the main detractors from hydrogen power.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 06-Sep-18 10:25:13 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 400kW (1080mph) EVSE new2 GM> (not new-tech 
2others)





http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/msn/gms-new-charging-technology-to-allow-for-180-miles-of-range-in-10-minutes/ar-BBMIF9t
GM's New Charging Technology to Allow for 180 Miles of Range in 10 
Minutes

September 1, 2018  Rob Stumpf

[images
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBMIHZJ.img?h=351=624=6=60=f=f
/ Getty Images

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBMISW4.img?h=355=624=6=60=f=f
/ TIME
]

Electric cars have one large disadvantage when placed side-by-side with
their traditional gas-powered rivals: the time it takes to refuel. 
General

Motors has begun a new partnership with Delta Americas to develop a new
technology which will charge its upcoming fleet of electric cars in 
record

time.

General Motors said it is readying a fleet of 20 electric cars that 
will be
capable of utilizing the newly developed chargers, enabling its 
vehicles to
rapidly recharge their batteries and provide up to 180 miles of range 
in
just 10 minutes. Its partner in the deal, Delta Americas, expects to 
have
the final prototype of its Extreme Fast Charger (XFC) ready by 2020, 
and GM
expects to have its fleet of vehicles ready only three years later, by 
2023.


The new XFCs are set to outpace both Tesla's Superchargers, which can
provide current-generation cars with up to 120-kilowatts of power, as 
well

as Porsche's new 350-kW chargers, by providing an unheard of 400 kW of
electricity to the vehicles. The new technology, developed with partner
Delta Americas and sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy, is able 
to

provide a staggering 96.5 percent grid-to-vehicle efficiency, a three
percent increase than current technology, partly thanks to the use of
solid-state transformers.

“We’re thrilled to lead such an important project and have a stellar 
team of
researchers and partners in place that are more than ready to take on 
the
challenge of setting a new standard for EV fast charging,” said M.S. 
Huang,

president of Delta Americas'. “By utilizing solid-state transformer
technology, we have the opportunity to create unprecedented charging 
speed
and convenience that will ultimately help support the DOE’s strategic 
goal

of increasing EV adoption across the nation.”

The numbers quoted by GM and Delta Americas are theoretical, of course, 
and
are contingent on what is considered to be "tomorrow’s long-range EVs," 
or
vehicles that will provide up to 360 miles of range per charge. As 
batteries
possess a higher charge, they become increasingly difficult to 
recharge,
meaning that it takes less time to charge a battery from zero-to-50 
percent

than from 50-to-100 percent. Delta Americas believes that its current
technology will recharge a next-generation 360-mile range battery to 50
percent in the rated 10 minutes, though they do not specify battery
capacity.
[© msn.com]
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=400kW+charging
search  400kW charging
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=500kW+charging
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=600kW+charging
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=800kW+charging
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=1000kW+charging


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/gm-to-dethrone-tesla-as-ev-charge-rate-champ
GM Wants to Dethrone Tesla as EV Charge Rate Champ
August 31, 2018  180 miles of range in 10 minutes is the target.
As electric vehicles continue their march into the mainstream, 
manufacturers

are working overtime to reduce charging times ...
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2018-chevrolet-boltev-016-1535727218.jpg


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/gm-is-racing-to-be-the-first-manufacturer-to-offer-180-miles-of-ev-range-in-10-minutes/ar-BBMM8Ko?li=BBnb4R5
GM is Racing to be the First Manufacturer to Offer 180 Miles of EV 
Range in

10 Minutes
September 3, 2018  This level of extremely short battery top ups is
necessary for the electric car to catch on in appreciable numbers in 
America

...
https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBMMpg7.img?h=351=624=6=60=f=f


https://electrek.co/2018/09/03/gm-delta-400-kw-electric-car-charging/
GM is working on next-gen 400 kW charging with Delta for 180 miles of 
range

in less than 10 minutes
Sep. 3rd 2018  While the project has some exciting implications for a 
faster
and more efficient electric vehicle charging future, it is not expected 
to

be commercialized soon.

Re: [EVDL] Current INSIDEEV's newsletter

2018-09-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Interesting to look at. Thanks for posting, Lawrence.

What I'm wondering is whether EV sales are really up or not. Meaning, if 
you look at the sales numbers by vehicle model, you'll see that Tesla 
model 3 dwarfs all the others. Thus, other model sales could be 
decreasing on a year to year basis and the chart would still show an 
overall increase in sales. (I imagine this data is available but I don't 
have time to search :(


Still, it's encouraging. If Tesla can sell that many cars, I'm pretty 
sure there's a bigger market than just Tesla.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 05-Sep-18 3:22:54 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Current INSIDEEV's newsletter

Current Newsletter.  Lawrence Rhodes  
https://mailchi.mp/a16cd0460270/august-2018-plug-in-electric-car-sales?e=855110afee




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Re: [EVDL] Kandi crossover

2018-09-05 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Can it go uphill? They must have misstated the motor power at 21kW.

-- Original Message --
From: "robert winfield via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; 
"primobass...@sbcglobal.net" 

Cc: "robert winfield" 
Sent: 05-Sep-18 10:38:29 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kandi crossover


How far does it go?
| Kandi EX3 | 41.8 |


41.8 battery
n Wednesday, September 5, 2018, 10:32:45 AM EDT, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:





  Chinese crossover available in Texas.  Light weight and long range.  
Lawrence Rhodeshttp://www.kandiev.com/






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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ak47)Kalashnikov CV-1 r:320km ts:80kpm> (a pr tool)

2018-08-28 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Actually, I think they'll end up selling a lot to municpalities... The 
wake turbulence from that barge shape probably will suck the sidewalks 
clean.


-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 28-Aug-18 7:48:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (ak47)Kalashnikov CV-1 r:320km ts:80kpm> (a pr 
tool)



I think it will go over real well when you tell your colleagues: I will
bring my Kalashnikov tomorrow!
Cor.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 7:11 PM brucedp5 via EV  
wrote:






http://www.calvertjournal.com/news/show/10607/kalashnikov-tesla-soviet-style-electric-super-car-kombi
Kalashnikov wants to take on Tesla with a Soviet-style electric ‘super 
car’

23 August 2018  Katie Davies  Russia

[share
https://twitter.com/mashant/status/1032616714389864448
Maria Antonova @mashant
Russian gunmaker Kalashnikov says its new electrical concept car based 
 on
1970s-era classic "Kombi" model will compete with Tesla. It's super  
cute.

8:13 AM - Aug 23, 2018


image
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlSXYPaX4AEfCLL.jpg
CV-1 concept
]

Russian arms manufacturer Kalashnikov has unveiled a new “supercar” 
for the

world's burgeoning electric car market.

The CV-1 concept car can reach 80 kilometres an hour and can travel 
for 350

kilometres before recharging.

It appeared as part of Kalashnikov’s latest offerings at the Army 2018
International Military Technology Forum in Moscow.

But behind the technology is a heavy dose of Soviet nostalgia. The 
CV-1

uses
the classic Soviet Izh-2125 Kombi as its base. This compact family car 
was

produced between 1973 and 1997, providing a cheap transport option for
millions.

“This technology allows us to stand alongside and compete with global
electric car manufacturers such as Tesla,” a Kalashnikov spokesperson 
told
Russian news agency RIA Novosti. “We were inspired by our experience 
as a
world market leader throughout the creation of all our concept 
designs.”

[© calvertjournal.com]



https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-25/russia-s-tesla-rival-won-t-be-coming-to-a-car-dealer-near-you
Don't Bother Pre-Ordering Russia's Tesla Rival
August 25, 2018  It's easy to laugh at the goofy prototype ... 
Kalashnikov
probably won’t even try to mass-produce ... is just a way to draw 
attention
to the company’s bold diversification away from guns ... deal to 
supply

UM-1
electric motorbikes and the  UV-4 electric four-wheelers to the United 
Arab

Emirates ...
https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iOhKJX0En4J8/v1/800x-1.jpg


https://mikeshouts.com/kalashnikov-um-1-and-uv-4-electric-vehicles/
Kalashnikov Has A Civilian Electric Bike And A Twizy-like Electric Car
August 27, 2018  Famed Russian maker of the super robust assault rifle
AK-47, Kalashnikov ... churning out more news ... not turning out more
killing machines ... it has a black-and-red themed civilian electric
motorcycle based on the made-for-military and law enforcement electric
two-wheel off-roader revealed last year ...

https://d2cdo4blch85n8.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Kalashnikov-UM-1-and-UV-4-Electric-Vehicles-Featured-image.jpg



https://www.ndtv.com/video/auto/carandbike-tube/ak-47-maker-kalashnikov-makes-a-new-electric-car-492205?vod-justadded
AK-47

Maker Kalashnikov Makes A New Electric Car
August 24, 2018  The makers of the infamous AK-47 assault rifle have 
made a
new electric car ... CV-1 is based on a 1970s Soviet-era station wagon 
and
gets a 320 km range with a 0-100 kmph sprint capability in 6-seconds 
...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSoJGKI0RrY


https://www.dw.com/en/kalashnikov-unveils-new-electric-car/a-45202288
Kalashnikov unveils new electric car
Aug 24, 2018  Kalashnikov, a company more known for its AK-47 machine 
guns

... unveiled its new electric car ...
https://www.dw.com/image/45197153_401.jpg



http://www.pravdareport.com/news/business/companies/23-08-2018/141446-kalashnikov_tesla-0/
Kalashnikov unveils Russian electric car to compete with Tesla
23 August 2018 ... Kalashnikov unveiled its concept car CV-1 based on
Izh-21252 body at Army 2018 forum. It was said that the car battery 
would
have a revolutionary inverter measured 50x50x100 cm that would be able 
to

power up to 1.2 MW ...
http://img.pravdareport.com/image/article/7/8/1/62781.jpeg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47
The AK-47, or AK as it is officially known also known as the 
Kalashnikov,

is
a gas-operated, 7.62×39mm assault rifle, developed in the Soviet Union 
by

Mikhail Kalashnikov ...
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izh_2125
The IZh 2125 "Kombi is a compact car produced by the Soviet car
manufacturer
IZh from 1973 to 1997. It was based on an Izhevsk-modified Moskvitch 
412

...


[dated]
https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/327368-10-soviet-cars-driven-western
10 famous Soviet cars 

Re: [EVDL] Roland Wiench

2018-08-20 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I was wondering the same. David, I'm so glad you researched this and 
found out. Roland was very knowledgeable and always had a practical 
answer at hand. Like Bob Rice, he is noticeably missed.

Peri


-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 20-Aug-18 3:29:26 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Roland Wiench

If youi've been on the EVDL for a while, you probably remember reading 
posts
by Roland Wiench.  He gave us a lot of them -- over 4,100.  His first 
post,
about LRR tires, seems to have been in November of 2003.  He posted 
several

times in late 2016 and early 2017, then one last time in May of 2017.

You can read many of his posts in the archive.  He's also quoted in an 
EVDL

library article, http://www.evdl.org/pages/battpost.html

I realized recently that I hadn't read anything from him in quite a 
while,
so I did some investigation.  I'm sad to report that Roland passed away 
on

the 16th of March this year.  The obituary is quoted below.

Roland got his El Camino conversion from Robert Aronson's Electric Fuel
Propulsion in Michigan.  Aronson is probably best remembered for his 
Renault-
based Mars I and Mars II conversions (Dauphines and R10s), every nook 
and
cranny jammed with lead batteries, but he converted several large 
American

cars too.

Roland never stopped improving and refining that El Camino, which at 
one
time weighed over 3.5 tons.  Recently, he'd fitted it with Leaf 
modules,

which must have significantly reduced the weight.

You can see the car before the Leaf module conversion here:

http://evalbum.com/470

-

https://www.croxfordfuneralhome.com/notices/Roland-Wiench

Roland Eugene Wiench
September 4, 1936 ~ March 16, 2018 (age 81)

Born on Sept. 4, 1936 on Friday at 11:45 AM, I came out facing North in
Dickinson, North Dakota, in the hospital 400 feet from our home. Made 
it

home for lunch at 12 noon.

My father, an electrical engineer, took me down to his electrical 
laboratory
(I called it a dungeon). At the age of 8, he taught me basic 
electricity. My
first project was a dog repellant that was placed in the garden. As a 
dog
came into the garden, I turned on a switch that tickled his feet at a 
real
low voltage. The dog stood up on his two back feet and tiptoed through 
the
tulips, dancing the jitterbug. Later, I made an overhead electrical 
trolley
using an erector set with the clotheslines as the conductors. I forgot 
to

turn off the power and the laundry lady did the jitterbug too.

I attended St. Patrick´s grade school and Assumption Abbey high school 
in

North Dakota. I also attended the College of Great Falls, Montana.

I enlisted in the Navy in 1955 as flight, radar controller, and 
navigator

for carriers in the Atlantic. After studying aviation electronics
engineering, I worked for Boeing Aircraft in Great Falls. Meanwhile I 
was
employed as an electrical technician, then electrical supervisor at 
MANG

(Montana Air National Guard).

After serving in The Navy, USAF, and MANG I was honorably discharged as
Master Sergeant in 1989.

In 1976 I received a grant and a prototype electric car from Electric 
Fuel
Propulsion of Troy, Michigan. Since 1989 I have worked on the science 
of

improvement of the electrical vehicle.

=

While Roland remained a bachelor, many nieces and nephews survive. To 
some

he was an Uncle and to others, because he lived with us during our
childhood, Roland was an Uncle-Brother. Roland was predeceased by 
parents
Frank and Clementine Wiench; brothers and their wives: Francis 
(Marilyn)
Wiench and Alcuin (Annie) Wiench; sisters and their husbands: Bernice 
(Paul)

Wilhelm and Beatrice Hall.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Subject: Re: George Bush father now: Nissan Leaf Compliance car?

2018-08-12 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

The original Leaf has an 80kW motor and a 24kWh battery.

-- Original Message --
From: "Paul Compton via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Paul Compton" 
Sent: 12-Aug-18 1:55:48 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Subject: Re: George Bush father now: Nissan Leaf 
Compliance car?



On 11 August 2018 at 23:49, Willie via EV  wrote:



I thought Leafs were 80kw.  Are they now offering a low power model to
increase efficiency?


No, it's just the usual casual attitude to the difference between
drive system power (kW) and battery capacity (kWh).

--
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] Subject: Re: George Bush father now: Nissan Leaf Compliance car?

2018-08-11 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I'll stand up for Nissan, too. I have a thousand complaints but I think, 
overall, they did a great job. What really matters is whether you want 
to be an early adopter and take some risk.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
Sent: 11-Aug-18 10:15:58 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Subject: Re: George Bush father now: Nissan Leaf 
Compliance car?


We have had three Leafs.  The 2012 Leaf had a bad battery.  We turned 
it back in.  Our 2013 Leaf has normal battery degradation.  We can 
still eek out a hundred miles range on the freeway.  This is at 42k 
miles.  Still very useful.  Our 2016 Nissan is still showing 150 miles 
range at times and this is driven miles plus guessometer.  On our last 
trip to Southern California from San Francisco we  went from Salinas to 
San Luis Obispo  135 miles and still had 20 percent left.   The 30 kw 
Leaf is fantastic.  The IMEV simply in it's original configuration does 
not meet our needs   Nissan has made the effort to improve the 
batteries of their cars.  The IMEV in my opinion is an embarrassment to 
the EV design community.  We paid 14k for the 2013 with 2,600 miles on 
the clock.  The 30kw was EVen better at 13,550.  We will buy this car 
after the lease.  Sorry you had a bad experience with your Leaf but 
almost everyone with a 2011 or 2012 had a bad experience.  We also 
needed fast charging.  I don't believe the IMEV has fast charging.  The 
IMEV is a putt putt for city use similar to a smart car.  Every car has 
it's mission but to compare an IMEV to a Nissan Leaf is to compare a 
Nissan Leaf to a Tesla. In price/performance the Leaf is a clear 
winner.  It gets me where I want to go.  It is comfortable.  It is 
inexpensive.  I don't care how it looks David.  I just wish it had the 
aerodynamics of a Hyundai. Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

2018-08-08 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Really, it's hard to say. Tesla's high end models would be fine, along 
with other makers who have added EVs to their luxury models. But did the 
tax credit accelerate Nissan's and GM's entry to market? And, later, 
others?


The other factor playing is the fuel economy mandates. Personally, I 
think that is a more effective tool, requiring models across the 
spectrum to be more efficient. You can't meet the mandate just by 
selling 1% EVs. The average has to come from, well, the average sale. At 
first, this might mean substantially higher manufacturing costs, but as 
others have pointed out, economy of scale would quickly bring that down.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 08-Aug-18 11:00:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car


Tesla started in 2003 well before Bushes action in 2008.
It was going to happen even without the government.

The government just impeded real progress by creating a false economy.

Remember Bush was the one who brought us $100,000 rebate if you buy a 
Humvee 5 years before the $7500 EV credit.



 From: Lee Hart via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] George W. Bush--Father of the modem electric car

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
H.  I don't agree.  Without the rebate I won't own two Leafs.  
Lawrence Rhodes


Me too. Without the rebates and CA mandates, the automakers would never
have produced any EVs.

When a technology has a monopolistic "lock" on the market, and benefits
from all sorts of economies of scale and government incentives, there 
is

no way for a new technology to break into the market. The rebates and
mandates were necessary to allow change to even be possible.

--
There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a
little worse and sell a little cheaper. Those who consider price
alone are that person's lawful prey. -- John Ruskin
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EPA attempt to put "safety" over emissions... -wrong-

2018-08-02 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I'ts a not-very-opaque support for Koch bros et al. If Trump could spin 
any harder, his head would simply come off. From the NYT:


...

But the Trump administration, in its big new proposal to roll back those 
rules, is now arguing the opposite: Forcing automakers to build cleaner 
cars will lead to more highway accidents and deaths.


...

First, people who buy fuel-efficient vehicles will end up driving more, 
increasing the odds that they will get into a crash. Second, the 
fuel-efficient vehicles will themselves be more expensive, slowing the 
rate at which people buy newer vehicles with advanced safety features. 
Third, automakers will have to make their cars lighter in response to 
rising standards, slightly hurting safety.


...

The Trump administration, in its new proposal, reworked that analysis 
and concluded that the rebound effect was essentially twice as large. 
People with more efficient cars would drive more miles than previously 
assumed, and hence were likely to get into many more accidents.


...

Experts who have looked at this question have developed a rule of thumb: 
If automakers are mainly reducing the weight of their largest vehicles, 
like S.U.V.s and pickup trucks, then that makes the roads safer overall. 
But if manufacturers were to focus more on reducing the weight of their 
smallest passenger cars, that could be worse for overall auto safety, 
since those cars would be more vulnerable in crashes with bigger 
vehicles.


...

It’s worth noting, however, that this particular argument accounts for 
only about 1 percent of the Trump administration’s fatality estimates.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: ev...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 02-Aug-18 11:36:55 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EPA attempt to put "safety" over emissions... -wrong-

Green Car Reports shows how Trump's EPS is rephrasing the issue of 
freezing
the mileage standard for cars is actually a safety issue!  IE, bigger 
cars
are safer.  Therefore the EPA should allows bigger cars and screw the 
gas

mileage...

BUT!   The number one counter argument to Trump's EPA roll back of 
emissions

standards based on "bigger is safer" is ... crash tests of the TESLA!

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1118023_trump-administration-releases-proposal-to-weaken-fuel-economy-emissions-standards

The Tesla has ZERO emissions (infinite gas mileage) and is the safest 
there

is...

Just FYI

Bob Bruninga, PE
Instructor, US Naval Academy
410-293-6417
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