Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[Paul Dove via EV]

http://en.calb.cn/product/show/?id-626

It used to be 3C now they say 2C or 80 amps for the CA40.

I tested the CA100 at 300 amps and the temperature only rose 10  degrees C.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 12, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> What they are "rated" for and what they will actually do are two different 
> things.
> They are actually "rated" at .3C.
> 1C continuous let alone 3C continuous will lead to an early demise.
> 
> Al
> 
>> On 6/12/2015 12:15 AM, Paul Dove wrote:
>> Those batteries are rated for 3C continuous.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 11, 2015, at 8:59 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 95 40ah cells is only 12kWh. Range will be minimal.
>>> I doubt the 40ah cells will last very long since you will be pulling at 
>>> minimum 1C continuous.
>>> 
>>> Al
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[Alan Arrison via EV]

What they are "rated" for and what they will actually do are two 
different things.

They are actually "rated" at .3C.
1C continuous let alone 3C continuous will lead to an early demise.

Al

On 6/12/2015 12:15 AM, Paul Dove wrote:

Those batteries are rated for 3C continuous.

Sent from my iPhone


On Jun 11, 2015, at 8:59 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:

95 40ah cells is only 12kWh. Range will be minimal.
I doubt the 40ah cells will last very long since you will be pulling at minimum 
1C continuous.

Al



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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I re-read the original mentioning of the 40Ah cells that also said
that he paid $5k for 95 cells. That is about right, the CALB were
typically going for $1.25 per Ah so that means that he really is using
24 sets of 4 *in series* since that gives the roughly 300V that is expected.
I suspect that his 90 miles range is incorrect, or it may be "up to" 90 mi
which can only be achieved by driving constant 30 MPH for 3 hours straight.
Since he has 40Ah cells and the sporty acceleration needs more than 200A,
he is loading his cells with more than 5C and that is outside the spec
for the cells, as far as I know, so I think that the worry about the
longevity of the cells is valid.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 10:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

Hi David,
Something is not correct in the numbers that you give us.
If there are 24 modules of 4 parallel cells, then the pack voltage is about 77V 
(24 x 3.2V) which makes no sense in a 300V vehicle, so I suspect that there 
still are 96 series cells.

The 40Ah is incapable of giving the truck a spiffy acceleration because typical 
for this type of vehicle is at minimum 250A current limit (which is what my US 
Electricar S10 truck had and it is similar to the Ranger) and since the 
recommended max draw on these batteries is 3C the 40Ah cell would need to be 
limited to 120A so my guess is that there are 2x 40Ah cell in parallel or there 
actually are 80Ah cells in use, but size constraints may have made 40Ah 
necessary and they are buddy-paired, but still 96 cells in series.
That would give a total max pack capacity of 24.6 kWh and at a typical 
consumption of 300 Wh per mile for a truck, that gives 82 miles of range. Drive 
it careful
(slower) and you can get up to 90 miles of range in practice.
That would mean that a total of 192 cells of 40Ah capacity are used.
As I said before - it makes more sense to use the 80Ah cells (half the 
terminals to connect) but of course I do not know the reason to select 40Ah.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Miller via EV
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 9:38 AM
To: Alan Arrison
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

 Hi Alan.
  Thanks for the insight!

  I do worry about the batteries.  It's not my Li conversion.
So, I'm short on many details.  Here is what I know.

  It ranges 90 miles per charge under easy use.  45 miles per charge when 
driven aggressively.
  The 40 AH Lithiums are packed into 24 4-cell parallel modules.
So, these modules are 160 AH with 1/4 of the total current flowing through each 
cell?
  Does this explain the good range?
  Does this significantly improve the Lithium longevity?
  My 13 year old NiMHs still get ~70 miles.  But my power is uncomfortably low.

Thanks!
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Hi David,
Something is not correct in the numbers that you give us.
If there are 24 modules of 4 parallel cells, then the pack
voltage is about 77V (24 x 3.2V) which makes no sense in a 300V vehicle,
so I suspect that there still are 96 series cells.

The 40Ah is incapable of giving the truck a spiffy acceleration
because typical for this type of vehicle is at minimum 250A current limit
(which is what my US Electricar S10 truck had and it is similar to the Ranger)
and since the recommended max draw on these batteries is 3C the 40Ah cell
would need to be limited to 120A so my guess is that there are 2x 40Ah cell
in parallel or there actually are 80Ah cells in use, but size constraints may
have made 40Ah necessary and they are buddy-paired, but still 96 cells in 
series.
That would give a total max pack capacity of 24.6 kWh and at a typical 
consumption
of 300 Wh per mile for a truck, that gives 82 miles of range. Drive it careful
(slower) and you can get up to 90 miles of range in practice.
That would mean that a total of 192 cells of 40Ah capacity are used.
As I said before - it makes more sense to use the 80Ah cells (half the terminals
to connect) but of course I do not know the reason to select 40Ah.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Miller via EV
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 9:38 AM
To: Alan Arrison
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

 Hi Alan.
  Thanks for the insight!

  I do worry about the batteries.  It's not my Li conversion.
So, I'm short on many details.  Here is what I know.

  It ranges 90 miles per charge under easy use.  45 miles per charge when 
driven aggressively.
  The 40 AH Lithiums are packed into 24 4-cell parallel modules.
So, these modules are 160 AH with 1/4 of the total current flowing through each 
cell?
  Does this explain the good range?
  Does this significantly improve the Lithium longevity?
  My 13 year old NiMHs still get ~70 miles.  But my power is uncomfortably low.

Thanks!
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[David Miller via EV]

 Hi Alan.
  Thanks for the insight!

  I do worry about the batteries.  It's not my Li conversion.
So, I'm short on many details.  Here is what I know.

  It ranges 90 miles per charge under easy use.  45 miles per
charge when driven aggressively.
  The 40 AH Lithiums are packed into 24 4-cell parallel modules.
So, these modules are 160 AH with 1/4 of the total current flowing
through each cell?
  Does this explain the good range?
  Does this significantly improve the Lithium longevity?
  My 13 year old NiMHs still get ~70 miles.  But my power is
uncomfortably low.

Thanks!
-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[Willie2 via EV]

On 06/11/2015 10:38 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On 6/11/2015 3:00 PM, David Miller via EV wrote:

Everyone,
One of our Rav4EV News Group guys converted his Rav4 to Lithium for ~$7.5 
total.  $5k for
95 batteries and $2.5k for the BMS. His conversion adds j1772 charging 
capability as well.  He
gets a 90 mile range and has sporty acceleration.I don't know how long his 
CALB 40AH
LiFEPO4 prismatic Batteries (CA40FI) will last.

I doubt he gets a 90 mile range.
12KWh/90 miles == 133Wh/mile.
In a Rav4?  Highly unlikely.
Yes and looking at it another way: the 90 mile range would indicate an 
average discharge rate of about .5C.  A low demand on the cells. I would 
guess the range is no more than 50 miles.  Probably less.



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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[Paul Dove via EV]

Those batteries are rated for 3C continuous.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 11, 2015, at 8:59 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> 
> 95 40ah cells is only 12kWh. Range will be minimal.
> I doubt the 40ah cells will last very long since you will be pulling at 
> minimum 1C continuous.
> 
> Al
> 
>> On 6/11/2015 3:00 PM, David Miller via EV wrote:
>> Everyone,
>>   One of our Rav4EV News Group guys converted his Rav4 to Lithium for ~$7.5
>> total.  $5k for
>> 95 batteries and $2.5k for the BMS. His conversion adds j1772 charging
>> capability as well.  He
>> gets a 90 mile range and has sporty acceleration.
>>   I don't know how long his CALB 40AH
>> LiFEPO4 prismatic Batteries (CA40FI) will last.
>>   Can anyone advise me here?
>>   Other than my concern about LiFEPO4 battery lifetimes this looks like the
>> best option.
>> It's just a little more expensive than I'd like.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[John Lussmyer via EV]

>On 6/11/2015 3:00 PM, David Miller via EV wrote:
>> Everyone,
>>One of our Rav4EV News Group guys converted his Rav4 to Lithium for ~$7.5 
>> total.  $5k for
>> 95 batteries and $2.5k for the BMS. His conversion adds j1772 charging 
>> capability as well.  He
>> gets a 90 mile range and has sporty acceleration.I don't know how long 
>> his CALB 40AH
>> LiFEPO4 prismatic Batteries (CA40FI) will last.

I doubt he gets a 90 mile range.
12KWh/90 miles == 133Wh/mile.
In a Rav4?  Highly unlikely.


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[Alan Arrison via EV]

95 40ah cells is only 12kWh. Range will be minimal.
I doubt the 40ah cells will last very long since you will be pulling at 
minimum 1C continuous.


Al

On 6/11/2015 3:00 PM, David Miller via EV wrote:

Everyone,
   One of our Rav4EV News Group guys converted his Rav4 to Lithium for ~$7.5
total.  $5k for
95 batteries and $2.5k for the BMS. His conversion adds j1772 charging
capability as well.  He
gets a 90 mile range and has sporty acceleration.
   I don't know how long his CALB 40AH
LiFEPO4 prismatic Batteries (CA40FI) will last.
   Can anyone advise me here?
   Other than my concern about LiFEPO4 battery lifetimes this looks like the
best option.
It's just a little more expensive than I'd like.


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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 32, Issue 18

[David Miller via EV]

Thanks for the amazing input everyone!

Bruce,
  Thanks for all the leads!
  You're right, I'm not that Toyota guy.


Cor,
  The long cycle times I mention are for reconditioning individual cells
one at a time with
a SuperBrain989.  Slow discharge/slow overcharge cycles, not ordinary
charge cycles.
Worst case scenario.  That is why the time is so long.

  Again, ~$1k worth of Lee Hart's electronics could do the job 100 times
faster and better than
a "SuperBrain989".  But I'd need a spare set of batteries to keep my car
driving.
  I am leaning toward this solution.  But I need some good cheap spares.

 BatteryM.D. does this reconditioning for ~$8.8k.  They swap your "core"
battery pack out for a
reconditioned one.  So fast service!  The reconditioning happens on their
time.  You end up with
~85 mile range.


Everyone,
  One of our Rav4EV News Group guys converted his Rav4 to Lithium for ~$7.5
total.  $5k for
95 batteries and $2.5k for the BMS. His conversion adds j1772 charging
capability as well.  He
gets a 90 mile range and has sporty acceleration.
  I don't know how long his CALB 40AH
LiFEPO4 prismatic Batteries (CA40FI) will last.
  Can anyone advise me here?
  Other than my concern about LiFEPO4 battery lifetimes this looks like the
best option.
It's just a little more expensive than I'd like.


  I have not heard back from all of my manufacturer inquiries for NiMH.
The Panasonic EV-95s
retailed for $250 when they were new.  If available today the 24 pack would
cost $6k
and the range should be ~120 miles.  Still seems expensive.
  It looks like some exist out there.
  I will update to the news group when and if I do find a manufacturer.

Thanks everyone!
-David Miller
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