Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[paul dove via EV]

Sorry I remembered that wrong it said don’t use salt water. It’s on page 14.  
How to discharge battery 

https://elvsolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/2012_I_Dismantling_guide.pdf

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 17, 2019, at 12:49 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Submerge?
> 
> http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70=1920=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F01%2Fsunken-ferrari-1.jpg%3Fquality%3D85
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 6:50 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Mitsubishi says to submerge the battery in salt water. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 2/16/19 12:14 PM, Gail Lucas via EV wrote:
 Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed ice 
 they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent flaring up?
>>> 
>>> A seemingly good idea.  Perhaps worthy of study by fire fighting people.  
>>> Two likely problems I see:
>>> 1) The logistics difficulty of having ice on hand especially considering 
>>> the rare need for it.
>>> 2) Ice COULD be counter productive by blocking water from where it is 
>>> needed.
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>> 
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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Submerge?

http://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70=1920=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2019%2F01%2Fsunken-ferrari-1.jpg%3Fquality%3D85

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Feb 16, 2019, at 6:50 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mitsubishi says to submerge the battery in salt water. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 16, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2/16/19 12:14 PM, Gail Lucas via EV wrote:
>>> Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed ice 
>>> they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent flaring up?
>> 
>> A seemingly good idea.  Perhaps worthy of study by fire fighting people.  
>> Two likely problems I see:
>> 1) The logistics difficulty of having ice on hand especially considering the 
>> rare need for it.
>> 2) Ice COULD be counter productive by blocking water from where it is needed.
>> ___
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[paul dove via EV]

Mitsubishi says to submerge the battery in salt water. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 16, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2/16/19 12:14 PM, Gail Lucas via EV wrote:
>> Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed ice 
>> they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent flaring up?
> 
> A seemingly good idea.  Perhaps worthy of study by fire fighting people.  Two 
> likely problems I see:
> 1) The logistics difficulty of having ice on hand especially considering the 
> rare need for it.
> 2) Ice COULD be counter productive by blocking water from where it is needed.
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Willie via EV]

On 2/16/19 12:37 PM, Chris Tromley via EV wrote:

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:15 PM Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:


Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed
ice they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent
flaring up?



Probably not.  If you assume they can maintain typical freezer temperature
of -10 °F, that's still only ~80 °F away from ambient temperature. 


Not that it is significant, but you have ignored the "heat of fusion". 
Ice soaks up much more heat in that last thawing degree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy_of_fusion

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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:15 PM Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:

> Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed
> ice they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent
> flaring up?
>

Probably not.  If you assume they can maintain typical freezer temperature
of -10 °F, that's still only ~80 °F away from ambient temperature.  That's
not much of a help when you're trying to cool things heated by flames in
the 1000s of degrees.  Furthermore, if you dumped enough crushed ice so it
wouldn't immediately flash into steam, it would restrict the flow of
water.  The main benefit of using a fire hose is that there's a constant
flow of water to carry the heat away.  (Assuming you can get water to the
heat source.)  You just need to do it long enough to cool everything to
below ignition temp.  That might mean until there is not enough capacity
left in the battery to heat up from a short circuit caused by munched
and/or torn metal

Chris


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Willie via EV]

On 2/16/19 12:14 PM, Gail Lucas via EV wrote:
Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed 
ice they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent 
flaring up?


A seemingly good idea.  Perhaps worthy of study by fire fighting people. 
 Two likely problems I see:
1) The logistics difficulty of having ice on hand especially considering 
the rare need for it.
2) Ice COULD be counter productive by blocking water from where it is 
needed.

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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Gail Lucas via EV]

Would it expedite the cooling if fire departments had sacks of crushed 
ice they could throw on the battery as the flames die, to prevent 
flaring up?


On 2/16/2019 4:15 AM, paul dove wrote:

The main point is that a lithium battery fire is a chemical fire supplying its 
own oxygen so it can’t be smothered. One must remove the heat and bring the 
temperature of the the battery below the thermal run away point. I watched 
videos of firemen trying to douse a lithium battery fire and it keeps flaring 
up because the turn off the hose when the fire goes out before they have 
sufficiently cooled the battery

Sent from my iPhone


On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:46 PM, Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:

I thought of this too when Ron, a volunteer firefighter on our list, found the 
information could be useful to him in his work.

Also, it would be good for anyone driving vehicles with lithium batteries to 
know to look for a hose instead of grabbing their fire extinguisher.

Gail

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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Lee Hart via EV]

paul dove via EV wrote:

The main point is that a lithium battery fire is a chemical fire
supplying its own oxygen so it can’t be smothered. One must remove
the heat and bring the temperature of the the battery below the
thermal run away point. I watched videos of firemen trying to douse a
lithium battery fire and it keeps flaring up because the turn off the
hose when the fire goes out before they have sufficiently cooled the
battery


Not only that, but a battery can provide its own source of ignition. 
Even after being extinguished and totally cooled off, there can still be 
enough voltage and current so a short somewhere can produce enough heat 
to re-ignite it.


--
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in
possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. (Max Born)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[paul dove via EV]

The main point is that a lithium battery fire is a chemical fire supplying its 
own oxygen so it can’t be smothered. One must remove the heat and bring the 
temperature of the the battery below the thermal run away point. I watched 
videos of firemen trying to douse a lithium battery fire and it keeps flaring 
up because the turn off the hose when the fire goes out before they have 
sufficiently cooled the battery 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:46 PM, Gail Lucas via EV  wrote:
> 
> I thought of this too when Ron, a volunteer firefighter on our list, found 
> the information could be useful to him in his work.
> 
> Also, it would be good for anyone driving vehicles with lithium batteries to 
> know to look for a hose instead of grabbing their fire extinguisher.
> 
> Gail
> 
>> On 2/15/2019 5:40 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>> Besides useful to EVangels, my EVfire & li-ion fire posts might be useful to
>> firefighters & 1st responders.
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Re: [EVDL] (more): EVfire: 2wheel EV.cn Suddenly Bursts Into Flames (v)

[Gail Lucas via EV]

I thought of this too when Ron, a volunteer firefighter on our list, 
found the information could be useful to him in his work.


Also, it would be good for anyone driving vehicles with lithium 
batteries to know to look for a hose instead of grabbing their fire 
extinguisher.


Gail

On 2/15/2019 5:40 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

Besides useful to EVangels, my EVfire & li-ion fire posts might be useful to
firefighters & 1st responders.

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