Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Jay Summet via EV]

I got that from the link in my email.
Jay

On 2/13/22 10:11, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Jay, do you have a reference for the 5.9 t ? I'd like to have that so I 
can pop this number on people moaning about subsidies for EVs and clean 
energy, etc.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Jay Summet via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Jay Summet" 
Sent: 13-Feb-22 05:01:18
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US




On 2/11/22 17:22, Willie via EV wrote:


On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging.



A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
billions of dollars that it does not hav


I agree with the idea of limited government, but they should also stop 
subsidizing the oil industry (to the tune of 5.9 TRILLION, each year).


https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds 



7.5 billion over a few years to build out charging infrastructure and 
jump start EV adoption is nothing compared to that.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 13 Feb 2022 at 13:08, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total. The
> remaining 92 percent were implicit subsidies 

What a load of hooey.  It's all money.  It's all corporate welfare - 
socialism for the rich.  What the freak are you doing shilling for Exxon and 
BP, anyway?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Hypothetical median income of full-time US workers if income 
 were distributed as evenly as it was in 1975: $92,000

 Actual median income of full-time US workers: $50,000

 -- Harper's Index, December 2020
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[paul dove via EV]

Explicit subsidies accounted for only 8 percent of the total. The remaining 92 
percent were implicit subsidies, which took the form of tax breaks or, to a 
much larger degree, health and environmental damages that were not priced into 
the cost of fossil fuels, according to the analysis.
So not really!


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, February 13, 2022, 7:01 AM, Jay Summet via EV  
wrote:



On 2/11/22 17:22, Willie via EV wrote:
> 
> On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
>> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
>> people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. 

>> A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
>> billions of dollars that it does not hav

I agree with the idea of limited government, but they should also stop 
subsidizing the oil industry (to the tune of 5.9 TRILLION, each year).

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds

7.5 billion over a few years to build out charging infrastructure and 
jump start EV adoption is nothing compared to that.

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Jay, do you have a reference for the 5.9 t ? I'd like to have that so I 
can pop this number on people moaning about subsidies for EVs and clean 
energy, etc.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Jay Summet via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Jay Summet" 
Sent: 13-Feb-22 05:01:18
Subject: Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US




On 2/11/22 17:22, Willie via EV wrote:


On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging.



A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
billions of dollars that it does not hav


I agree with the idea of limited government, but they should also stop 
subsidizing the oil industry (to the tune of 5.9 TRILLION, each year).

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds

7.5 billion over a few years to build out charging infrastructure and jump 
start EV adoption is nothing compared to that.

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 2/11/22 17:22, Willie via EV wrote:


On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. 



A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
billions of dollars that it does not hav


I agree with the idea of limited government, but they should also stop 
subsidizing the oil industry (to the tune of 5.9 TRILLION, each year).


https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds

7.5 billion over a few years to build out charging infrastructure and 
jump start EV adoption is nothing compared to that.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[paul dove via EV]

Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to 
accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass 
market electric cars to market as soon as possible.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/mission-tesla  

Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 2:51 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:

Please point to even one sign that this the case.  Among of investment? Number 
of models? Amount of marketing?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2022, at 12:30 PM, Willie McKemie via EV  wrote:
> 
> Tesla's goal is to hasten the adoption electric vehicles. The others goal
> is to delay adoption.
> 
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 14:16 paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> The other car companies got the same tax credits as Tesla and they built
>> zero public chargers
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 10:15 AM, EV List Lackey via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12 Feb 2022 at 13:37, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they're
>>> gonna put chargers in for all the other companies
>> 
>> I don't see why.  Tesla chose to bundle the cost of their exclusive,
>> private, proprietary charging into the $100k price of their early models.
>> 
>> I don't think that they should have been allowed to build Tesla-only EV
>> charging, any more than Ford and GM should have been allowed to build
>> filling stations for their own cars over a century ago.  Regardless, it
>> was
>> Musk's own free choice.
>> 
>> Besides, I'd argue that Tesla's Superchargers WERE indirectly subsidized,
>> through the EV purchase tax credits.
>> 
>> That said, I think that governments SHOULD have directly subsidized
>> Tesla's
>> charging network, AND required that it be open to ALL EVs with no
>> advantage
>> or preference for Teslas.  In fact I'd be fine with them doing that for
>> future Tesla stations.
>> 
>>> by the way I paid $200 a year tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama
>> 
>> They're punishing you for doing social good.  Typical tantrum for a
>> regressive, anti-EV, anti-environment government.  They should instead be
>> giving you a $200 yearly EV tax *credit* as a reward.
>> 
>> Optimum solution: move.  That way Alabama won't get ANY of your taxes.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>    "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would
>>    think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying
>>    "My mother, drunk or sober."
>> 
>>                                                -- G K Chesterton
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 12 Feb 2022 at 14:25, Willie McKemie via EV wrote:

> Tesla's goal is to hasten the adoption electric vehicles. 

So Musk says, or at least he used to.

> The others goal is to delay adoption. 

That's unquestionably true in the US.  

In Europe, nope.  

The automakers aren't stupid.  Western and Northern Europe is serious about 
EVs, and the ICEV sun is rapidly setting there. It dips below the horizon in 
about 8 years. So the automakers are ploughing serious money into EVs for 
Europe and China.

However, the US isn't serious about EVs, so EV manufacturers other than 
Tesla aren't serious about the US.  I don't see that changing.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Nothing is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious 
 stupidity.

   -- Martin Luther King Jr
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Please point to even one sign that this the case.  Among of investment? Number 
of models? Amount of marketing?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2022, at 12:30 PM, Willie McKemie via EV  wrote:
> 
> Tesla's goal is to hasten the adoption electric vehicles. The others goal
> is to delay adoption.
> 
>> On Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 14:16 paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> The other car companies got the same tax credits as Tesla and they built
>> zero public chargers
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 10:15 AM, EV List Lackey via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 12 Feb 2022 at 13:37, paul dove via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they're
>>> gonna put chargers in for all the other companies
>> 
>> I don't see why.  Tesla chose to bundle the cost of their exclusive,
>> private, proprietary charging into the $100k price of their early models.
>> 
>> I don't think that they should have been allowed to build Tesla-only EV
>> charging, any more than Ford and GM should have been allowed to build
>> filling stations for their own cars over a century ago.  Regardless, it
>> was
>> Musk's own free choice.
>> 
>> Besides, I'd argue that Tesla's Superchargers WERE indirectly subsidized,
>> through the EV purchase tax credits.
>> 
>> That said, I think that governments SHOULD have directly subsidized
>> Tesla's
>> charging network, AND required that it be open to ALL EVs with no
>> advantage
>> or preference for Teslas.  In fact I'd be fine with them doing that for
>> future Tesla stations.
>> 
>>> by the way I paid $200 a year tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama
>> 
>> They're punishing you for doing social good.  Typical tantrum for a
>> regressive, anti-EV, anti-environment government.  They should instead be
>> giving you a $200 yearly EV tax *credit* as a reward.
>> 
>> Optimum solution: move.  That way Alabama won't get ANY of your taxes.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>"My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would
>>think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying
>>"My mother, drunk or sober."
>> 
>>-- G K Chesterton
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Willie McKemie via EV]

Tesla's goal is to hasten the adoption electric vehicles. The others goal
is to delay adoption.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2022, 14:16 paul dove via EV  wrote:

> The other car companies got the same tax credits as Tesla and they built
> zero public chargers
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 10:15 AM, EV List Lackey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> On 12 Feb 2022 at 13:37, paul dove via EV wrote:
>
> > They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they're
> > gonna put chargers in for all the other companies
>
> I don't see why.  Tesla chose to bundle the cost of their exclusive,
> private, proprietary charging into the $100k price of their early models.
>
> I don't think that they should have been allowed to build Tesla-only EV
> charging, any more than Ford and GM should have been allowed to build
> filling stations for their own cars over a century ago.  Regardless, it
> was
> Musk's own free choice.
>
> Besides, I'd argue that Tesla's Superchargers WERE indirectly subsidized,
> through the EV purchase tax credits.
>
> That said, I think that governments SHOULD have directly subsidized
> Tesla's
> charging network, AND required that it be open to ALL EVs with no
> advantage
> or preference for Teslas.  In fact I'd be fine with them doing that for
> future Tesla stations.
>
> > by the way I paid $200 a year tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama
>
> They're punishing you for doing social good.  Typical tantrum for a
> regressive, anti-EV, anti-environment government.  They should instead be
> giving you a $200 yearly EV tax *credit* as a reward.
>
> Optimum solution: move.  That way Alabama won't get ANY of your taxes.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would
> think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying
> "My mother, drunk or sober."
>
> -- G K Chesterton
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[paul dove via EV]

The other car companies got the same tax credits as Tesla and they built zero 
public chargers


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 10:15 AM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 12 Feb 2022 at 13:37, paul dove via EV wrote:

> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they're
> gonna put chargers in for all the other companies   

I don't see why.  Tesla chose to bundle the cost of their exclusive, 
private, proprietary charging into the $100k price of their early models.

I don't think that they should have been allowed to build Tesla-only EV 
charging, any more than Ford and GM should have been allowed to build 
filling stations for their own cars over a century ago.  Regardless, it was 
Musk's own free choice.  

Besides, I'd argue that Tesla's Superchargers WERE indirectly subsidized, 
through the EV purchase tax credits.

That said, I think that governments SHOULD have directly subsidized Tesla's 
charging network, AND required that it be open to ALL EVs with no advantage 
or preference for Teslas.  In fact I'd be fine with them doing that for 
future Tesla stations.

> by the way I paid $200 a year tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama 

They're punishing you for doing social good.  Typical tantrum for a 
regressive, anti-EV, anti-environment government.  They should instead be 
giving you a $200 yearly EV tax *credit* as a reward.

Optimum solution: move.  That way Alabama won't get ANY of your taxes.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
    "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would 
    think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying 
    "My mother, drunk or sober."

                                                -- G K Chesterton
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Rod Hower via EV]

 In Ohio they classify the Chevy Volt as an EV which means I have to pay an 
extra $200 every year to update my registration.  If I drive on gasoline only I 
would have to go 25,000 miles to equate to the $200 extra fee.  They are 
definitely penalizing the EV driver!
On Saturday, February 12, 2022, 12:39:06 PM EST, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 12 Feb 2022 at 8:24, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> The slowness and lack of responsiveness of the utilities in California
> have been a big issue in trying to deploy the technology. 

You younguns weren't around then, but we crusty curmudgeons remember a half 
century and more back, when the electric utilities were pretty interested in 
electric vehicles.  They were a regulated monopoly and had plenty of extra 
capacity.  If they squinted just right, they could see dollar signs floating 
around up there, aaalmost ripe for the plucking.

If you were a small company building (converting) EVs that cost 3 to 10 
times what a comparable ICEV cost, just about the only customers you could 
really count on to lay out the green for them were those electric utilities. 
IIRC, most of Bob Aronson's infamous "elephant on roller skates"* Mars and 
Mars II lead sled conversions went to utilities.  

Ah, those were the days.  :-\  

*With thanks to Bob Rice, RIP

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
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    have secrets. It is only because they have secrets that they 
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 12 Feb 2022 at 8:24, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> The slowness and lack of responsiveness of the utilities in California
> have been a big issue in trying to deploy the technology. 

You younguns weren't around then, but we crusty curmudgeons remember a half 
century and more back, when the electric utilities were pretty interested in 
electric vehicles.  They were a regulated monopoly and had plenty of extra 
capacity.  If they squinted just right, they could see dollar signs floating 
around up there, aaalmost ripe for the plucking.

If you were a small company building (converting) EVs that cost 3 to 10 
times what a comparable ICEV cost, just about the only customers you could 
really count on to lay out the green for them were those electric utilities. 
IIRC, most of Bob Aronson's infamous "elephant on roller skates"* Mars and 
Mars II lead sled conversions went to utilities.  

Ah, those were the days.  :-\  

*With thanks to Bob Rice, RIP

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 I am the one with no secrets. They [the Chinese government] 
 have secrets. It is only because they have secrets that they 
 can imagine everyone else having them too.

 -- Ai Weiwei
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I would agree that there would only be a modest amount of congestion “at this 
time”. 

But BEVs will be flooding the market over the next few years, and that will be 
short-lived. Can they expand the network quick enough, while maintaining the 
same level of performance, reliability, etc?  

Maybe, but remember that everything is not within their control. There will be 
substantial power needs, leaving them at the mercy of the power utilities. The 
slowness and lack of responsiveness of the utilities in California have been a 
big issue in trying to deploy the technology.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2022, at 8:00 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 2/12/22 10:39 AM, Steves via EV wrote:
>> Tesla has the infrastructure there already. Why not piggyback onto their 
>> network. Pay Tesla to add a few chargers for other cars at each of their 
>> stations. Be relatively cheap that way. And yes it’s promoting a charging 
>> monopoly, but they do have a great system.
> 
> The SuperCharger network TOWERS over the competition in all ways you can 
> think of: siting, maintenance, reliability, ease of billing/payment, charge 
> speed, pervasiveness.
> 
> IMHO, Tesla is waiting for congress to specify exactly how Tesla would 
> benefit from opening the network.  Most likely, "opening" will be via 
> adapters rather than additional cables.  Many Tesla drivers fear congestion 
> should the SC network be opened.  That view is offset by the fact that Tesla 
> is, by far, the best selling EV.  That is, opening the network will have 
> trigger only a modest amount of congestion at this time.  The infusion of 
> cash from additional charging sales would enable Tesla to greatly expand the 
> SC network.  Tesla has a great reputation for putting SCs where they are 
> needed and for increasing the capacity of SCs with big demands.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 12 Feb 2022 at 13:37, paul dove via EV wrote:

> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they're
> gonna put chargers in for all the other companies   

I don't see why.  Tesla chose to bundle the cost of their exclusive, 
private, proprietary charging into the $100k price of their early models.

I don't think that they should have been allowed to build Tesla-only EV 
charging, any more than Ford and GM should have been allowed to build 
filling stations for their own cars over a century ago.  Regardless, it was 
Musk's own free choice.  

Besides, I'd argue that Tesla's Superchargers WERE indirectly subsidized, 
through the EV purchase tax credits.

That said, I think that governments SHOULD have directly subsidized Tesla's 
charging network, AND required that it be open to ALL EVs with no advantage 
or preference for Teslas.  In fact I'd be fine with them doing that for 
future Tesla stations.

> by the way I paid $200 a year tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama 

They're punishing you for doing social good.  Typical tantrum for a 
regressive, anti-EV, anti-environment government.  They should instead be 
giving you a $200 yearly EV tax *credit* as a reward.

Optimum solution: move.  That way Alabama won't get ANY of your taxes.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying 
 "My mother, drunk or sober."

 -- G K Chesterton
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I would guess that they would have to apply for the funds, which may be 
allocated to the states for distribution.  But I haven’t looked at the bill, 
and it may all be undecided right now.

Monopoly? Maybe.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2022, at 7:39 AM, Steves via EV  wrote:
> 
> Tesla has the infrastructure there already. Why not piggyback onto their 
> network. Pay Tesla to add a few chargers for other cars at each of their 
> stations. Be relatively cheap that way. And yes it’s promoting a charging 
> monopoly, but they do have a great system. 
> 
> -Steve
> 
>> On Feb 12, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Weren’t the cost of those chargers incorporated into the purchase price of 
>> the vehicles?
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
 On Feb 12, 2022, at 6:19 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they’re gonna 
>>> put chargers in for all the other companies  by the way I paid $200 a year 
>>> tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>> 
>>> 
 On Friday, February 11, 2022, 5:16 PM, jamie via EV  
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A couple of relevant data points:
>>> 
>>> -Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV 
>>> manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over. 
>>> Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others can 
>>> catch up, as their new models arrive.
>>> 
>>> -The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels 
>>> pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.
>>> 
>>> As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide 
>>> transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American 
>>> competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that 
>>> each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have 
>>> individual support or direct use by every single person.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Jamie
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
 
> On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
> people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait 
> for
> mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
> businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging 
> stations
> out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Willie via EV]

On 2/12/22 10:39 AM, Steves via EV wrote:

Tesla has the infrastructure there already. Why not piggyback onto their 
network. Pay Tesla to add a few chargers for other cars at each of their 
stations. Be relatively cheap that way. And yes it’s promoting a charging 
monopoly, but they do have a great system.


The SuperCharger network TOWERS over the competition in all ways you can 
think of: siting, maintenance, reliability, ease of billing/payment, 
charge speed, pervasiveness.


IMHO, Tesla is waiting for congress to specify exactly how Tesla would 
benefit from opening the network.  Most likely, "opening" will be via 
adapters rather than additional cables.  Many Tesla drivers fear 
congestion should the SC network be opened.  That view is offset by the 
fact that Tesla is, by far, the best selling EV.  That is, opening the 
network will have trigger only a modest amount of congestion at this 
time.  The infusion of cash from additional charging sales would enable 
Tesla to greatly expand the SC network.  Tesla has a great reputation 
for putting SCs where they are needed and for increasing the capacity of 
SCs with big demands.



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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[jamie via EV]

For the charger funding issue:
In Europe, Tesla has opened a few charging locations to non-Tesla 
vehicles. If that trend continues and comes to the USA, it could be that 
Tesla might then be eligible for federal infrastructure funding.


Part of the issue is competing standards. It's easier to open up Tesla 
fast chargers to other EVs in countries where Tesla already uses the 
local standard. A bit more problematic in the USA where the Tesla 
connector is proprietary. Tesla's solution seems more elegant than CCS 
but that's unfortunately irrelevant in this context since it's not 
accessible to all EVs.


If Tesla adds CCS connectors or dedicated chargers to their USA 
locations, it could be that they may become eligible for federal funding 
for those chargers.


Going the other way, there have been adapters allowing USA/Korean Tesla 
owners access to other charging networks. But from what I gather the 
Chademo one is expensive, somewhat slow, and hard to get, and the CCS 
(model 3 & Y only) adapter might not be available in the USA yet. 
Correct me if I'm wrong about that. If Tesla can supply a working CCS 
adapter in the USA, that would open up other charging networks to at 
least some Tesla owners.


For the EV tax issue:
Alabama's tax seems high. How would that compare to a non-EV's yearly 
average gas tax there? In Colorado the EV surcharge fee is $50/year. 
Depending on how much you drive, that may also be too high.


I don't think states and feds have figured out the most balanced way to 
tax vehicles overall so that it's fair to all vehicle owners, funds 
driving infrastructure sufficiently, and discourages emissions.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 2/12/22 6:37 AM, paul dove wrote:
They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they’re gonna 
put chargers in for all the other companies  by the way I paid $200 a 
year tax on my electric vehicle in Alabama



Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone 

On Friday, February 11, 2022, 5:16 PM, jamie via EV  
wrote:



A couple of relevant data points:

-Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV
manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over.
Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others
can
catch up, as their new models arrive.

-The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels
pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.

As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide
transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American
competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that
each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have
individual support or direct use by every single person.

Cheers,
   -Jamie



On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
 >
 > On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
 >> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is
making
 >> people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that
we wait
 >> for
 >> mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
 >> businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging
 >> stations
 >> out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity
will
 >> attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting
to do
 >> this.
 >>
 >> A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be
spending
 >> billions of dollars that it does not hav
 > ABSOLUTELY!  In addition, government contributions are not needed
and
 > any government money would  almost certain to be misspent. Examples
 > abound.  Tesla has the charging problems solved.  Compare
SuperChargers
 > with EVGO and the VW system.  All Tesla needs is a small fraction
of the
 > money that Biden wants to spend.  Tesla knows the charging
problem and
 > how best to solve it.  Instead, Biden wastes his efforts denying the
 > existence of Tesla while proclaiming the EV dominance of GM.  Why
does
 > Biden expect credibility?
 >
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ARCHIVE: 

Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Steves via EV]

Tesla has the infrastructure there already. Why not piggyback onto their 
network. Pay Tesla to add a few chargers for other cars at each of their 
stations. Be relatively cheap that way. And yes it’s promoting a charging 
monopoly, but they do have a great system. 

-Steve

> On Feb 12, 2022, at 10:22 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Weren’t the cost of those chargers incorporated into the purchase price of 
> the vehicles?
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 12, 2022, at 6:19 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they’re gonna put 
>> chargers in for all the other companies  by the way I paid $200 a year tax 
>> on my electric vehicle in Alabama
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, February 11, 2022, 5:16 PM, jamie via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A couple of relevant data points:
>> 
>> -Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV 
>> manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over. 
>> Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others can 
>> catch up, as their new models arrive.
>> 
>> -The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels 
>> pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.
>> 
>> As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide 
>> transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American 
>> competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that 
>> each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have 
>> individual support or direct use by every single person.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>>  -Jamie
>> 
>> 
>> 
 On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
>>> 
 On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
 The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
 people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait 
 for
 mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
 businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging 
 stations
 out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
> 
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Weren’t the cost of those chargers incorporated into the purchase price of the 
vehicles?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2022, at 6:19 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they’re gonna put 
> chargers in for all the other companies  by the way I paid $200 a year tax on 
> my electric vehicle in Alabama
> 
> 
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Friday, February 11, 2022, 5:16 PM, jamie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> A couple of relevant data points:
> 
> -Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV 
> manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over. 
> Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others can 
> catch up, as their new models arrive.
> 
> -The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels 
> pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.
> 
> As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide 
> transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American 
> competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that 
> each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have 
> individual support or direct use by every single person.
> 
> Cheers,
>   -Jamie
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
>>> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
>>> people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait 
>>> for
>>> mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
>>> businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging 
>>> stations
>>> out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will

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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[paul dove via EV]

They should reimburse Tesla for their charging network if they’re gonna put 
chargers in for all the other companies  by the way I paid $200 a year tax on 
my electric vehicle in Alabama


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, February 11, 2022, 5:16 PM, jamie via EV  wrote:


A couple of relevant data points:

-Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV 
manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over. 
Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others can 
catch up, as their new models arrive.

-The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels 
pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.

As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide 
transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American 
competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that 
each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have 
individual support or direct use by every single person.

Cheers,
  -Jamie



On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:
> 
> On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
>> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
>> people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait 
>> for
>> mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
>> businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging 
>> stations
>> out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
>> attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting to do 
>> this.
>>
>> A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
>> billions of dollars that it does not hav
> ABSOLUTELY!  In addition, government contributions are not needed and 
> any government money would  almost certain to be misspent. Examples 
> abound.  Tesla has the charging problems solved.  Compare SuperChargers 
> with EVGO and the VW system.  All Tesla needs is a small fraction of the 
> money that Biden wants to spend.  Tesla knows the charging problem and 
> how best to solve it.  Instead, Biden wastes his efforts denying the 
> existence of Tesla while proclaiming the EV dominance of GM.  Why does 
> Biden expect credibility?
> 
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 11 Feb 2022 at 15:04, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
> people who do not support EVs pay for ev charging.

Yep.  And even though I don't have any kids, the gubmint makes me pay taxes 
so that all those grubby undeserving kids in the neighborhood can go to 
school.  

NO FAIR!  I shouldn't have to pay tax for anything that doesn't benefit me 
personally, directly, right now.

Ever heard the phrase "promote the general welfare"?

EV charging supports the use of EVs.  So do subsidies, imperfect as they 
are.  The entire world population benefits from the consequent reduced air 
emissions of all kinds, including CO2.

We've had 40+ years of "greed is good" and "trickle down" economics. Well, 
so far the only trickling I see is melting glaciers and rising sea levels.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 It will always be one of the best jokes of democracy that it 
 gives its deadly enemies the means to destroy it.

   -- Joseph Goebbels
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

As far as I know, the charging business cannot yet be profitable without 
subsidies. 

If anyone has any contrary data, I would welcome it.  If there is any data 
showing WHEN it might be profitable, I would be happy to see that, too.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Feb 11, 2022, at 2:22 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
>> The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
>> people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait for
>> mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
>> businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging stations
>> out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
>> attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting to do this.
>> 
>> A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
>> billions of dollars that it does not hav
> ABSOLUTELY!  In addition, government contributions are not needed and any 
> government money would  almost certain to be misspent. Examples abound.  
> Tesla has the charging problems solved.  Compare SuperChargers with EVGO and 
> the VW system.  All Tesla needs is a small fraction of the money that Biden 
> wants to spend.  Tesla knows the charging problem and how best to solve it.  
> Instead, Biden wastes his efforts denying the existence of Tesla while 
> proclaiming the EV dominance of GM.  Why does Biden expect credibility?
> 
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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[jamie via EV]

A couple of relevant data points:

-Biden recently publicly credited Tesla as America's leading EV 
manufacturer. Yes, it took a while, but that talking point is over. 
Meanwhile we'll see if Ford, VW, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and others can 
catch up, as their new models arrive.


-The government is also making people who do not support fossil fuels 
pay for fossil fuel tax breaks and cleanups.


As a wider view, perhaps the thinking is that supporting nation-wide 
transportation initiatives offers benefits for overall American 
competitiveness, which benefits everyone. Even while recognizing that 
each subset in the transportation universe may not currently have 
individual support or direct use by every single person.


Cheers,
 -Jamie



On 2/11/22 3:22 PM, Willie via EV wrote:


On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait 
for

mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging 
stations

out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting to do 
this.


A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
billions of dollars that it does not hav
ABSOLUTELY!  In addition, government contributions are not needed and 
any government money would  almost certain to be misspent. Examples 
abound.  Tesla has the charging problems solved.  Compare SuperChargers 
with EVGO and the VW system.  All Tesla needs is a small fraction of the 
money that Biden wants to spend.  Tesla knows the charging problem and 
how best to solve it.  Instead, Biden wastes his efforts denying the 
existence of Tesla while proclaiming the EV dominance of GM.  Why does 
Biden expect credibility?


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Re: [EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[Willie via EV]

On 2/11/22 5:04 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait for
mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging stations
out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting to do this.

A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
billions of dollars that it does not hav
ABSOLUTELY!  In addition, government contributions are not needed and 
any government money would  almost certain to be misspent. Examples 
abound.  Tesla has the charging problems solved.  Compare SuperChargers 
with EVGO and the VW system.  All Tesla needs is a small fraction of the 
money that Biden wants to spend.  Tesla knows the charging problem and 
how best to solve it.  Instead, Biden wastes his efforts denying the 
existence of Tesla while proclaiming the EV dominance of GM.  Why does 
Biden expect credibility?


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[EVDL] $7.5bn for ev charging stations across the US

[nathan christiansn via EV]

The only problem that I see with this is that the government is making
people who do not support ev’s pay for ev charging. I say that we wait for
mass ev adoption to happen(which will happen very soon). After this,
businesses and apartment building owners will pay for ev charging stations
out of their own pocket because having ev charging as an amenity will
attract more customers/tenants. Some hotels are already starting to do this.

A government that is 28 trillion dollars in debt should not be spending
billions of dollars that it does not have.

-Nathan
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