Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> Here I am finally possibly buying an OEM EV.  Long way from my 1956VW with an 
> ADC and 12v marine batteries.

Amazing turn of EVents, indeed -- and seemingly overnight. When I put the PV 
array on my roof a few years ago and intentionally oversized it for an EV, an 
OEM EV wasn't remotely on my radar and I figured whatever DIY conversion I did 
was going to be a bit of a big deal. Didn't give it much thought aside from 
back-of-the-envelope ballpark guesses for how much extra panel capacity I 
thought I'd want.

Today, a Leaf would actually be a not-unreasonable option for me...and it would 
actually probably be cheaper than my plans for turning the '64 1/2 Mustang into 
a PHEV. But I'm probably going to go the PHEV route anyway...because it'll be 
the best of all worlds. Mostly just an EV, but also a road trip car...and with 
what should be a Tesla-beating all-wheel-drive hybrid mode...and, 
oh-by-the-way, also an iconic muscle car with the proverbial roaring V8 when 
such is called for

There's reason to hope that, before long, it'll be as hard to find a new car 
without an electric motor as it is today to find a new car without an automatic 
transmission. If we can make the transition to EVs significantly faster than we 
made the automatic transmission transition, we might actually survive the end 
of petroleum

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Ken Olum via EV
We recently bought a 2013 with chademo & 6.6kw charger for $10,800 list
(plus $500 dealer charge, etc.) and are pretty happy with it.  Before
2013 there was no percentage battery charge readout on the dash.  After
2013 there was no "charge only to 80%" option.

Recent battery packs are larger, though.

Don't make the mistake that we made of thinking that the dashboard
battery health display will actually tell you the battery condition.
Apparently when the car is serviced this display can get reset to show
full health, even if that isn't true.  Instead, go armed with an
OBDII bluetooth adapter and the Leafspy app on your phone, and you can
find out the truth.  If you have a friend with a Leaf, first make sure your
adapter works and learn how to use the app.

Ken
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[EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
I have seen some very good prices on 2013 Leafs with chademo & 6.6 chargers.  
I'm selling the veggie mobile and will need a car and since 12k is affordable 
to me I'm thinking of replacing the mess and thrift with almost as thrifty but 
much less messy electric.  Is there a "best" year of leaf so far?  Lawrence 
Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:50 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

> I have seen some very good prices on 2013 Leafs with chademo & 6.6 chargers.  
> I'm selling the veggie mobile and will need a car and since 12k is affordable 
> to me I'm thinking of replacing the mess and thrift with almost as thrifty 
> but much less messy electric.  Is there a "best" year of leaf so far?

I may well think you're a bit crazy for your mobile solar ideas...but you're 
absolutely spot-on with this.

My parents _still_ can't stop raving about their Leaf. For excellent reason.

So long as the range fits your driving habits, there isn't any other passenger 
vehicle in that price range that can even remotely compare to how good a car 
the Leaf is. It's got all the modern niceties and fit-and-finish and the rest 
one could ask for, plus all the advantages of a BEV that the choir here knows 
so well. And, as you note, used ones are solidly in the affordable econobox 
price range -- even though they'd be the ultimate luxury car of the '90s.

The _best_ year so far for the Leaf has to be 2017, with that big jump in 
battery capacity. But you can't actually buy those yet. And 2016 is certainly 
the second-best, and you _can_ buy those...but for full sticker price, not what 
you're looking for.

Before this year, there's been one significant change in battery management / 
chemistry / whatever to address first-generation problems in hot climates. I 
_think_ 2013 is the first model year after that change went into production, 
but don't quote me, especially if you live in an hot climate or you're 
considering a car coming from such a place.

Regardless, your main concern is going to be matching the battery health of the 
particular car (of whatever model year) with your needs and perception of 
value. If you're in a mild climate with modest range needs, you may well be 
just fine with a well-used first-generation Leaf down a few battery bars, even 
though the same car would be useless for somebody in Phoenix doing a daily 
50-mile commute.

And...unless you know up front that you actually will need the charger, save 
yourself some pennies and don't buy it. Really, truly. My parents only got the 
110v charger with the car. For a couple weeks, Dad was doing all sorts of 
Internet searches for cheap chargers or DIY options or the like, just to have 
something for "just in case"...and then he realized what a waste it would be. 
If a Leaf is the right car for you, 110v charging is also right for you. You'll 
start every morning with a full battery...and what more could you possibly need?

b&

P.S. For bonus points, after your bank account has recovered from spending 
money on the Leaf...toss a few kW of PV panels on your garage / carport...and, 
hey-presto, you've got the solar-powered electric vehicle you've dreaming 
of b&
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Jamie K via EV


I think of 2013 as LEAF version 1.5. The SV could be the value sweet 
spot although used SLs may compete depending on how prices trend.


Nissan is a bit cagey about it, but it seems like the 2013 batteries 
were tweaked a bit.


The 2013 battery percentage display is very useful; the heat pump on the 
SV and SL saves range in winter; 6.6kW charging makes the car MUCH more 
useful for multiple trips during the day (charges twice as fast as 3.3kW 
and 5 times faster than 110v); the Chademo fast charging capability 
makes it MUCH more useful for longer trips when it's necessary to charge 
along the way; the lighted charge port is useful; and the remote button 
to open the charge port is handy.


Other niceties that may also be in earlier models: Heated seats and 
steering wheel; timed preheat/cooling; and USB connection to phones for 
music. There's also navigation but we tend to use phone mapping and 
plugshare.


What's missing: on the SV: no backup camera unless the car also has the 
bose speaker option, which takes up trunk space.


2014 and 2015 seem to be much the same as the 2013, although there may 
be additional battery tweaks and they do have backup cameras. I'm not 
sure if other options changed. The 2013 is the last year to offer 
automatic charge to 80% to go easier on the batteries - does that mean 
2014 batteries are better or did they base that on encouraging data from 
the 2013 batteries (or are they just gaming the EPA range rating)? Hard 
to say.


So far, at about 20k miles, we've really been enjoying our 2013 SV and 
expect to do so for years to come.


The 2016's extra range would be a nice improvement but it all depends on 
what your driving patterns/needs are for the car. Right now the 2013 
LEAF's range works fine for our typical driving around town. It would be 
cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries (in another 5+ 
years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for replacement packs.


Cheers,
 -Jamie
 www.JamieKrutz.com



On 11/12/15 1:50 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I have seen some very good prices on 2013 Leafs with chademo & 6.6
chargers.  I'm selling the veggie mobile and will need a car and
since 12k is affordable to me I'm thinking of replacing the mess and
thrift with almost as thrifty but much less messy electric.  Is there
a "best" year of leaf so far?  Lawrence Rhodes -- next
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Well the 2016 is advertised but in San Francisco I can't get one.  I'm thinking 
2013 for myself as I get to use our 2012 regularly & I don't have the lead foot 
of my wife.  Seems the 2016 announcement has put a stop to sales of 2015 cars 
but I haven't seen any reduction of the 15's.  I might get a 16 if they were 
here. I've been doing alternate energy and transportation for a long time.  
Here I am finally possibly buying an OEM EV.  Long way from my 1956VW with an 
ADC and 12v marine batteries. Lawrence Rhodes 
  From: Ben Goren <b...@trumpetpower.com>
 To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 1:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.
   
On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:50 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> I have seen some very good prices on 2013 Leafs with chademo & 6.6 chargers.  
> I'm selling the veggie mobile and will need a car and since 12k is affordable 
> to me I'm thinking of replacing the mess and thrift with almost as thrifty 
> but much less messy electric.  Is there a "best" year of leaf so far?

I may well think you're a bit crazy for your mobile solar ideas...but you're 
absolutely spot-on with this.

My parents _still_ can't stop raving about their Leaf. For excellent reason.

So long as the range fits your driving habits, there isn't any other passenger 
vehicle in that price range that can even remotely compare to how good a car 
the Leaf is. It's got all the modern niceties and fit-and-finish and the rest 
one could ask for, plus all the advantages of a BEV that the choir here knows 
so well. And, as you note, used ones are solidly in the affordable econobox 
price range -- even though they'd be the ultimate luxury car of the '90s.

The _best_ year so far for the Leaf has to be 2017, with that big jump in 
battery capacity. But you can't actually buy those yet. And 2016 is certainly 
the second-best, and you _can_ buy those...but for full sticker price, not what 
you're looking for.

Before this year, there's been one significant change in battery management / 
chemistry / whatever to address first-generation problems in hot climates. I 
_think_ 2013 is the first model year after that change went into production, 
but don't quote me, especially if you live in an hot climate or you're 
considering a car coming from such a place.

Regardless, your main concern is going to be matching the battery health of the 
particular car (of whatever model year) with your needs and perception of 
value. If you're in a mild climate with modest range needs, you may well be 
just fine with a well-used first-generation Leaf down a few battery bars, even 
though the same car would be useless for somebody in Phoenix doing a daily 
50-mile commute.

And...unless you know up front that you actually will need the charger, save 
yourself some pennies and don't buy it. Really, truly. My parents only got the 
110v charger with the car. For a couple weeks, Dad was doing all sorts of 
Internet searches for cheap chargers or DIY options or the like, just to have 
something for "just in case"...and then he realized what a waste it would be. 
If a Leaf is the right car for you, 110v charging is also right for you. You'll 
start every morning with a full battery...and what more could you possibly need?



b&

P.S. For bonus points, after your bank account has recovered from spending 
money on the Leaf...toss a few kW of PV panels on your garage / carport...and, 
hey-presto, you've got the solar-powered electric vehicle you've dreaming 
of b&

  
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Alan Brinkman via EV
Lawrence,

The 2013 had an improvement to the battery for hot weather. The 2011 or 2012 
will be a little lower in price. Review the models and see if you want 
navigation, etc. But be sure to get the fast charging option if that is what 
you want. Newer models are reasonably priced for what you get.

Alan



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone.

-- Original Message --
>From : Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Subject : [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

I have seen some very good prices on 2013 Leafs with chademo & 6.6 chargers.  
I'm selling the veggie mobile and will need a car and since 12k is affordable 
to me I'm thinking of replacing the mess and thrift with almost as thrifty but 
much less messy electric.  Is there a "best" year of leaf so far?  Lawrence 
Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV
I own a 2011 Leaf with 45,000 miles.  As a car it is excellent!  As an EV, 
it can't hold a candle to the 1998 Homda EVPlus, I had for 6 years until 
Honda took it away.

The thing I like most about the Leaf is the wireless key, that all cars 
these days have.  This was my first and I will never buy a car with a 
mechanical key again.  The only thing I would like more is doors (at least 
the rear hatch) that didn't require a free hand to open and close.  If I 
walk up to the back of the car with the key in my pocket, the hatch should 
just open.  If I walk away from the car carrying the key with me, the 
doors should lock.

The rearview camera is excallent!  It provides a wide angle view to the 
rear of the car and has a graphic overlay indicating the distance to 
objects in the car's path.  The path curves when the steering wheel is 
turned.  Parallel parking is a dream with this camera.  The only thing I 
would like more is to have a camera on each corner of the front of the car 
with their images displayed on the top left and right corners of the 
display.

Next on my list of things I like is the storage organizer.  It provides 
nice compartments to store things including the 110V portable charging 
station (that I have only used twice).  It also creates a nice flat floor 
for grocery bags and other stuff.  I have several times hauled 2"x4"x8' 
studs.  They fit completely inside the vehicle.

The car seats 5 people nicely and was the daily commute vehicle for my 
lunch group where I used to work.  It also has great head room, although I 
have to duck to see under the rearview mirror when making right turns (it 
doesn't adjust high enough).

As a daily driver, this car is perfect!

As an EV, it pretty much sucks.  Yes, it is convenient to just plug it in 
every night and unplug and drive everyday.  My EVPlus was like that too.  
The instrumentation sucks, especially the guess-o-meter.  Last evening I 
drove for three miles while it told me I had seven miles left.  I started 
out my 68 mile trip with 90 miles on the guess-o-meter.

The EVPlus was much better with its range estimate.  It didn't present a 
single "distance to empty" number.  It presented two numbers: one for how 
the car was being driven at the moment, and one for the best that could be 
achieved under ideal conditions.  This was done as two horizontal bars on 
a chart labeled 0 to 120 miles.  This meter was incredibly intuitive.

I do like the power meter of the Leaf showing instantaneous power being 
used or regenerated.

My capacity is now down to 9 bars from twelve, which I assume means that
the capacity is now 18KWh rather than 24KWh.  Since the car has never let
me use more that 16.5KWh I have noticed no degredation in actual range.  

Since range differs so much with driving conditions, I use charging time
to measure capacity.  It has never taken longer than 5 hours to charge
from the point the gauges indicate completely empty (they shut off) to
100%.  It still takes 5 hours to do a complete recharge.  Since the 
charger is supposed to be 3.3KW, I assume this is 16.5Kwh.

I have had the car in for service five times in a little over four years.  
Nissan wanted me to bring it back in at six months and one year.  I 
recently took it in for a battery check after losing the third bar.  I had 
to replace two of the tires at about 33,000 miles and the other two 
original tires are about worn out.  I also had to replace the windshield.  
Actually, Nissan replaced the first one at my one-year checkup, but it 
broke again soon afterwards.  I got a third party windshield and it has 
been holding up nicely.

Again, I am very happy with my 2011 Leaf.  As a car it is fantastic!  Its 
instrumentation of battery capacity is quite lacking, but not entirely 
useless.  However, I hardly ever look at anything but the speedometer 
during daily driving.  Nothing else is needed since I know the battery has 
the capacity for my typical commute.

I would say if you can live with the range, a 2011 leaf would be your best 
bet.  You can get a top of the line one for less than $10,000.

Ed

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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Cruisin via EV
2015 with the new battery chemistry and cooling modules

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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Nov 12, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:

> It would be cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries (in another 
> 5+ years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for replacement packs.

Nissan is almost going to have to...but, even if they don't, somebody else 
will. The Leaf is the electric version of the Model T Ford. You'll still be 
able to buy parts for a Leaf for many decades to come, maybe even a century, 
and people will prize them the same way we do the Tin Lizzy.

Third-party battery replacements won't be that big of a deal. The volumetric 
efficiency of batteries is increasing at a pretty rapid pace, and there's not 
all that much to the Leaf's battery system. It doesn't make sense today for a 
third-party manufacturer to start making Leaf batteries, but, as soon as 
there's a market for them that Nissan doesn't fill, you can bet that market 
will get filled by somebody else.

...and, in the mean time, places like the Hybrid Auto Center sell Leaf packs 
that, at least on paper, look mighty attractive for DIY conversion projects

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Bob Bath via EV
Slightly off-topic, but no gen 1 upgrade on the battery pack to gen 2. The 
computers are apparently incompatible. Hack, anyone?

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat 
fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...

> On Nov 12, 2015, at 4:50 PM, Jamie K via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> I hope you're right, Ben. The LEAF is a top seller for EVs so it seems like 
> there will be a reasonable battery market to serve.
> 
> One more thing for the OP: the 2013 and later LEAFs have a bit more trunk 
> space than 2011/12 LEAFs.
> 
> Cheers,
> -Jamie
> 
> 
>> On 11/12/15 3:26 PM, Ben Goren wrote:
>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Jamie K via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> It would be cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries
>>> (in another 5+ years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for
>>> replacement packs.
>> 
>> Nissan is almost going to have to...but, even if they don't, somebody
>> else will. The Leaf is the electric version of the Model T Ford.
>> You'll still be able to buy parts for a Leaf for many decades to
>> come, maybe even a century, and people will prize them the same way
>> we do the Tin Lizzy.
>> 
>> Third-party battery replacements won't be that big of a deal. The
>> volumetric efficiency of batteries is increasing at a pretty rapid
>> pace, and there's not all that much to the Leaf's battery system. It
>> doesn't make sense today for a third-party manufacturer to start
>> making Leaf batteries, but, as soon as there's a market for them that
>> Nissan doesn't fill, you can bet that market will get filled by
>> somebody else.
>> 
>> ...and, in the mean time, places like the Hybrid Auto Center sell
>> Leaf packs that, at least on paper, look mighty attractive for DIY
>> conversion projects
>> 
>> b&
>> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Jay Summet via EV


I would recommend staying away from the 2011/2012 leafs for several reason:

1) Parts for the 2013 leaf work with 2014/2015 (and probably 2016). 
Between the 2012 and 2013 they upgraded quite a few things (probably 
improving most of them).


For example, they moved from using external chargers (in the trunk area) 
to a combined/integrated charger that is in the power distribution box 
on top of the inverter.  The whole motor/inverter/power distribution box 
is a very nice package on the 2013+ leafs.


I feel that going forward, finding parts and aftermarket accessories for 
the 2013-2016 leafs will be easier than the 2011/2012 models


2) The 2013 leaf batteries are definitely different (at least in the 
physical form factor, and possibly in the chemistry) from the 2011/2012 
model. I suspect that the 2013 batteries will last longer than the 
2011/2012 models.


3) The 2013 leafs are going off-lease now, so you can find a lot of 
deals on used 2013 leafs. The 2011/2012 leafs are probably also cheap, 
but probably not so much more cheap that it's worth looking at.



Once you've decided on a 2013 leaf or better, the one feature I'd look 
for would be the QuickCharge port, as that indicates the upgraded 6.6 kW 
charger, as well as the ability to quick charge if needed.


The SV/SL models with the heat pump and extra features are a nice bonus, 
but I wouldn't pay extra just to get them. (The SatNav is especially not 
worth paying extra for, the one on your cell phone is better.)


Jay

On 11/12/2015 07:50 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote:


I hope you're right, Ben. The LEAF is a top seller for EVs so it seems
like there will be a reasonable battery market to serve.

One more thing for the OP: the 2013 and later LEAFs have a bit more
trunk space than 2011/12 LEAFs.

Cheers,
  -Jamie


On 11/12/15 3:26 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On Nov 12, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


It would be cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries
(in another 5+ years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for
replacement packs.


Nissan is almost going to have to...but, even if they don't, somebody
else will. The Leaf is the electric version of the Model T Ford.
You'll still be able to buy parts for a Leaf for many decades to
come, maybe even a century, and people will prize them the same way
we do the Tin Lizzy.

Third-party battery replacements won't be that big of a deal. The
volumetric efficiency of batteries is increasing at a pretty rapid
pace, and there's not all that much to the Leaf's battery system. It
doesn't make sense today for a third-party manufacturer to start
making Leaf batteries, but, as soon as there's a market for them that
Nissan doesn't fill, you can bet that market will get filled by
somebody else.

...and, in the mean time, places like the Hybrid Auto Center sell
Leaf packs that, at least on paper, look mighty attractive for DIY
conversion projects

b&



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Re: [EVDL] Best year of Leaf to buy used.

2015-11-12 Thread Jamie K via EV


I hope you're right, Ben. The LEAF is a top seller for EVs so it seems 
like there will be a reasonable battery market to serve.


One more thing for the OP: the 2013 and later LEAFs have a bit more 
trunk space than 2011/12 LEAFs.


Cheers,
 -Jamie


On 11/12/15 3:26 PM, Ben Goren wrote:

On Nov 12, 2015, at 3:07 PM, Jamie K via EV 
wrote:


It would be cool if, when the time comes to replace the batteries
(in another 5+ years), Nissan would offer higher range choices for
replacement packs.


Nissan is almost going to have to...but, even if they don't, somebody
else will. The Leaf is the electric version of the Model T Ford.
You'll still be able to buy parts for a Leaf for many decades to
come, maybe even a century, and people will prize them the same way
we do the Tin Lizzy.

Third-party battery replacements won't be that big of a deal. The
volumetric efficiency of batteries is increasing at a pretty rapid
pace, and there's not all that much to the Leaf's battery system. It
doesn't make sense today for a third-party manufacturer to start
making Leaf batteries, but, as soon as there's a market for them that
Nissan doesn't fill, you can bet that market will get filled by
somebody else.

...and, in the mean time, places like the Hybrid Auto Center sell
Leaf packs that, at least on paper, look mighty attractive for DIY
conversion projects

b&



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