Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Isn't the NSA a bit beyond the EVDL's charter ? On 5/30/2015 3:58 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: On May 30, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You need a court order Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement agencies that work with the NSA on parallel construction? How about the marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money? I don't believe it's illegal for private companies. It is however illegal for the government to do it. As I wrote: has anybody bothered to tell the NSA that what they're doing is illegal? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150530/b87faf04/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On May 30, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You need a court order Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement agencies that work with the NSA on parallel construction? How about the marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money? I don't believe it's illegal for private companies. It is however illegal for the government to do it. As I wrote: has anybody bothered to tell the NSA that what they're doing is illegal? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150530/b87faf04/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Here in Montana, there are fuel pumps for using in vehicles for off roads driving meaning country, state and federal. You can cross them, but cannot drive them. The people that are using diesel fuel, the fuel is red color. The ranchers that have old cap oil wells on there land which have been turn over to them by the oil companies, uses this fuel with additives added to run there equipment. I drive every day to my mail box which is on my land with my EV. Roland - Original Message - From: John Lussmyermailto:cou...@casadelgato.com To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org ; Rolandmailto:e...@msn.com Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2015 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. On Sat May 30 07:58:46 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org said: This will depend on what type of speedometer you have. I am starting to replace the analog instruments with digital. The new digital has a external control where you can reset the mileage to any thing you want. Yes, and what % of vehicle drivers can/will do that? (Likely, FAR fewer than there are EV drivers.) If you towing a vehicle that is displaying increase mileage on a odometer with out any energy input, this should not be tax. Not many cars do that, and even then, it would be a tiny % of your miles. (unless your car is a real lemon.) Also no federal and state tax on private roads. So, you are buying Gas that doesn't have Road Tax for your private road driving? How? -- Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150530/4f9d6d32/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On May 30, 2015, at 2:09 PM, Mr23 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Isn't the NSA a bit beyond the EVDL's charter ? The context is vehicles, especially new factory electric vehicles, with a full suite of Big Brother spying equipment built into the car, hardware that we already know reports back to the manufacturers. Much as I think the Teslas are really truly impressive feats of engineering...even if I found a winning lottery ticket laying on the sidewalk, I'd still think long and hard about buying one. I'd cut a check for a Zombie 222 in an heartbeat...but a Tesla? Not so sure b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150530/577e6a7d/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On 30 May 2015 at 13:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote: As I wrote: has anybody bothered to tell the NSA that what they're doing is illegal? I'm not sure that makes a difference to them. But tossing that political football round is OT for us, and also kind of pointless, since it won't change anything. I think what matters in this discussion is that at least some EVs are already passing information about your use of them back to the manufacturer. Now suppose your legislature passes an EV pay-by-mileage law, and your local DMV gives you a choice between allowing them access to your EV's data and not getting a license for the EV. They have an economic interest in those data, since online access means that they don't have to pay someone to check your odometer. Hey, look how wisely they're using your tax dollars! :-\ Again, I'm no attorney, but as I understand it, courts have ruled that driving isn't a fundamental right. You have the choice to maintain your privacy by not driving your EV, and your constitutional rights are thus sufficiently satisfied. Fifteen years ago I would have said this couldn't happen, but a lot has happened in that time that I thought never would. I also thought that the contribution EVs make to the public health (and thus public expense) would be rewarded by allowing them to escape fuel tax. I sure was wrong about that! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On May 30, 2015, at 4:48 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You need a court order Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement agencies that work with the NSA on parallel construction? How about the marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money? -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150530/59f84dd0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You need a court order Sent from my iPhone On May 29, 2015, at 9:17 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 29 May 2015 at 18:19, Paul Dove via EV wrote: Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? I'm probably going to sound tinfoil-hattish here, but how do you know that your EV isn't already telling its manufacturer how far you drove last year? If you have a Tesla, it almost certainly is; and if you have a Leaf, I wouldn't be surprised if it is. If I'm not mistaken, and someone correct me if I am, both of these cars have full time mobile data connections back to their masters. All in the name of product improvement, mind you. The car knows its own VIN. Do you see any reason to think that if your DMV asks for that information, and maybe offers a little incentive to cover their costs, Tesla and/or Nissan would say no? I don't. This isn't your father's Oldsmobile. Indeed it isn't. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/30/2015 02:00 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote: On Fri May 29 16:19:59 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said: Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? There's this wonderful new invention that most cars have in them. It's called an Odometer. I would much prefer having to get an official odometer check every year (even paying $15 for it, like an emmisisons check) than have to pay the current $200 a year flat fee that the state of Georgia has just legislated. (And I like the idea of a yearly visit much better than having to carry around a GPS tracker ;) Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlVpuVgACgkQSWJjSgPNbM/DKwCfXJXLLoQTJ1bWSKKVUgfJLKqa SnQAn2yimjO4oK+5BfzgA7Wk2P6VZ2lq =0yZi -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
I don't believe it's illegal for private companies. It is however illegal for the government to do it. Sent from my iPhone On May 30, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com wrote: On May 30, 2015, at 4:48 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Same reason they can't ask for your text messages or phone information. You need a court order Has anybody bothered to tell that to the NSA? Or to the local law enforcement agencies that work with the NSA on parallel construction? How about the marketing firms that buy the data outright from those who collect it and then turn around and re-sell it to anybody with money? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
This will depend on what type of speedometer you have. I am starting to replace the analog instruments with digital. The new digital has a external control where you can reset the mileage to any thing you want. Also you can have it only monitor ON MOTOR TIME, meaning only display the miles that the motor is under power using energy the same as a ENGINE RUN TIME that is using gasoline. Does not monitor the miles during COAST RUN TIME. This is a simple control circuit by installing a micro on the accelerator control. I also have separate instruments that monitor the ON MOTOR TIME, COAST RUN TIME, and AWAY TIME from home. If you towing a vehicle that is displaying increase mileage on a odometer with out any energy input, this should not be tax. Also no federal and state tax on private roads. Roland - Original Message - From: Jay Summet via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2015 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/30/2015 02:00 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote: On Fri May 29 16:19:59 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org said: Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? There's this wonderful new invention that most cars have in them. It's called an Odometer. I would much prefer having to get an official odometer check every year (even paying $15 for it, like an emmisisons check) than have to pay the current $200 a year flat fee that the state of Georgia has just legislated. (And I like the idea of a yearly visit much better than having to carry around a GPS tracker ;) Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iEYEARECAAYFAlVpuVgACgkQSWJjSgPNbM/DKwCfXJXLLoQTJ1bWSKKVUgfJLKqa SnQAn2yimjO4oK+5BfzgA7Wk2P6VZ2lq =0yZi -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150530/18f09b29/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On Sat May 30 07:58:46 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said: This will depend on what type of speedometer you have. I am starting to replace the analog instruments with digital. The new digital has a external control where you can reset the mileage to any thing you want. Yes, and what % of vehicle drivers can/will do that? (Likely, FAR fewer than there are EV drivers.) If you towing a vehicle that is displaying increase mileage on a odometer with out any energy input, this should not be tax. Not many cars do that, and even then, it would be a tiny % of your miles. (unless your car is a real lemon.) Also no federal and state tax on private roads. So, you are buying Gas that doesn't have Road Tax for your private road driving? How? -- Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Roland wrote Also no federal and state tax on private roads. So I guess that means that there is no tax on roads 'Not maintained by County'? Rush Tucson AZ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
There may be 33.7 kWh in a gallon of gasoline but ICE's are very inefficient. I'd multiply that by 0.15 to compare with an EV. Or am I thinking of this incorrectly. Sent from my iPhone On May 29, 2015, at 9:26 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Does anyone know how EPA estimates miles per kWh? I am familiar with their standard test cycle conditions. Do they just quote the miles per unit energy based on what they use during that test? I ask because if I use the D.O.E. conversion of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gas my car has averaged about 170 MPGe over the last 5 1/2 years (excluding charger losses). That is much higher than EPA figures for any EV. I would expect my car to be similar to a Mitsubishi i since they are similar weight and size, so wonder if the difference is due to difference in the test cycle and my typical driving cycle or if they use some method for the estimate other than the 33.7 kWh/gallon. Their test cycle has a lot of accelerations/decelerations compared to time spent driving at constant speed compared to my typical cycle, which I expect would reduce the miles per unit energy for their cycle compared to mine, but mine seems more typical for the U.S. unless you drive in heavy traffic in a city most of the time. Has anyone used the 33.7 conversion to estimate MPGe for their Leaf or i? -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675843.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Yes they are inefficient. The typical number I've seen is around 20%. This, and the fact that an ice continues running while stopped at a traffic light but an electric motor doesn't (unless the vehicle has an automatic transmission) are of course the main reasons for reduced energy use by EVs, and why energy cost per mile is so much lower for EVs. But what I am asking about is the Mile Per Gallon equivalent, MPGe, rating given to ELECTRIC vehicles. Specifically, why if I use the 33.7 kWh/gal conversion factor does the MPGe for my car come out so high compared to EPA numbers for manufactured EVs? I think it must be the difference in driving cycles, but wondered if they use a different method of estimating MPGe. Would be interesting to see what people get for MPGe for their Leaf, Mitsubishi i, or Volt (in all electric) using the 33.7 conversion versus what type of driving cycle is typical for them. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675845.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Does anyone know how EPA estimates miles per kWh? I am familiar with their standard test cycle conditions. Do they just quote the miles per unit energy based on what they use during that test? I ask because if I use the D.O.E. conversion of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gas my car has averaged about 170 MPGe over the last 5 1/2 years (excluding charger losses). That is much higher than EPA figures for any EV. I would expect my car to be similar to a Mitsubishi i since they are similar weight and size, so wonder if the difference is due to difference in the test cycle and my typical driving cycle or if they use some method for the estimate other than the 33.7 kWh/gallon. Their test cycle has a lot of accelerations/decelerations compared to time spent driving at constant speed compared to my typical cycle, which I expect would reduce the miles per unit energy for their cycle compared to mine, but mine seems more typical for the U.S. unless you drive in heavy traffic in a city most of the time. Has anyone used the 33.7 conversion to estimate MPGe for their Leaf or i? -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675843.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.
Many states require a bi-yearly smog or safety check for vehicles, in many cases the ODO reading is recorded at the time of test. For insurance purpose, you also need to issue the mileage when insuring the vehicle since premium fees are based on declared usage (miles per year). So, it is not uncommon to pay based on usage, the whole reason why the fuel was taxed, to account for the amount of use. With EV it becomes harder to distinguish between home and vehicular use - similar to the problem with home heating oil being essentially diesel and also farm use diesel being off-road, so untaxed and some creative folks running that in their cars, so color additives to the fuel allow detection of non-road (untaxed) fuel in on-road vehicles. Tagging electricity is a little harder if you can plug into any outlet in the home to refuel your car. So, they try to tag onto something that is already in place, to levy taxes for the maintenance and construction of the freeways (all other roads get overwhelmingly funded via property taxes, whether you own a car or not, whether you drive or not - you pay for the roads in your town.) Other countries have tried various things, from paying for certain stretches of road (similar to toll) or per mile driven - the gas tax is still one of the best ways to put the burden where the pollution (=part of the cost) is generated, otherwise it becomes unequal between gas guzzlers and sippers, but that is a whole political process, so I think we should avoid that. Lets just say that miles driven can be recorded with existing means (ODOmeter) and thus there is a basis for a pay-for-how-far-you-drive Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 4:20 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery. Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? They will have to make it a blanket fee that's added to your tag to work I believe Sent from my iPhone On May 27, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Al Lumas via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on each mile you drive your electric vehicle. To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are considering it. Al At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote: You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV. If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life the EV may save you $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the the cost of fuel rises. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On Fri May 29 16:19:59 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said: Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? There's this wonderful new invention that most cars have in them. It's called an Odometer. -- Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? They will have to make it a blanket fee that's added to your tag to work I believe Sent from my iPhone On May 27, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Al Lumas via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on each mile you drive your electric vehicle. To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are considering it. Al At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote: You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV. If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life the EV may save you $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the the cost of fuel rises. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Paul Dove via EV wrote: Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? All car already have odometers, and many states already require annual inspections. One way is to simply record the mileage at each year's annual inspection when you renew your registration. But since the *real* reason for these fees is to penalize EVs and raise revenue, they will probably over-estimate the annual mileage, and bill everyone accordingly. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
You could be right. The Leaf console asks you to agree to their communications system, which requires setting up an account of sorts. If you don't agree, do they send the info anyway? Peri -- Original Message -- From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 29-May-15 7:17:30 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. On 29 May 2015 at 18:19, Paul Dove via EV wrote: Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? I'm probably going to sound tinfoil-hattish here, but how do you know that your EV isn't already telling its manufacturer how far you drove last year? If you have a Tesla, it almost certainly is; and if you have a Leaf, I wouldn't be surprised if it is. If I'm not mistaken, and someone correct me if I am, both of these cars have full time mobile data connections back to their masters. All in the name of product improvement, mind you. The car knows its own VIN. Do you see any reason to think that if your DMV asks for that information, and maybe offers a little incentive to cover their costs, Tesla and/or Nissan would say no? I don't. This isn't your father's Oldsmobile. Indeed it isn't. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On 29 May 2015 at 18:19, Paul Dove via EV wrote: Seems impossible to monitor how can they know how far I drove? I'm probably going to sound tinfoil-hattish here, but how do you know that your EV isn't already telling its manufacturer how far you drove last year? If you have a Tesla, it almost certainly is; and if you have a Leaf, I wouldn't be surprised if it is. If I'm not mistaken, and someone correct me if I am, both of these cars have full time mobile data connections back to their masters. All in the name of product improvement, mind you. The car knows its own VIN. Do you see any reason to think that if your DMV asks for that information, and maybe offers a little incentive to cover their costs, Tesla and/or Nissan would say no? I don't. This isn't your father's Oldsmobile. Indeed it isn't. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On 30 May 2015 at 2:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: The Leaf console asks you to agree to their communications system, which requires setting up an account of sorts. If you don't agree, do they send the info anyway? Good question! I've found that not registering an Android phone doesn't stop it from trading data regularly with someone or something, presumably Google. I've never been able to find out the details of this exchange, but I know it goes on because I use pay-as-you-go data. I watched the kb - and the $$ - add up. Suspending over 2 dozen background apps put a stop to the unsettling constant chatter, at the expense of some features I don't really care about anyway. I wonder if an equivalent neutering is possible for the Leaf's spyware. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
I don't think you mentioned MPGe before. WIki and the internet are pretty informative about this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent Lots of links in the biblio area. On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 12:08 PM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes they are inefficient. The typical number I've seen is around 20%. This, and the fact that an ice continues running while stopped at a traffic light but an electric motor doesn't (unless the vehicle has an automatic transmission) are of course the main reasons for reduced energy use by EVs, and why energy cost per mile is so much lower for EVs. But what I am asking about is the Mile Per Gallon equivalent, MPGe, rating given to ELECTRIC vehicles. Specifically, why if I use the 33.7 kWh/gal conversion factor does the MPGe for my car come out so high compared to EPA numbers for manufactured EVs? I think it must be the difference in driving cycles, but wondered if they use a different method of estimating MPGe. Would be interesting to see what people get for MPGe for their Leaf, Mitsubishi i, or Volt (in all electric) using the 33.7 conversion versus what type of driving cycle is typical for them. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675845.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150529/1613f405/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
We are still in the innovator stage that's all. No speculation needed. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations Sent from my iPad On May 27, 2015, at 1:37 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 26 May 2015 at 6:50, tomw via EV wrote: Plus today with instant everything, putting up with inconvenience is sooo yesterday. I think you're on to something here. The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant torque, zero emissions, refuel at home - just don't seem to be all that important to most people. Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have gotten better at a lot of these things. (Who would have thought it?) I think it's fair to say that consumers buy their vehicles for both rational and emotional reasons. The rational factors are easy - cost, utility, convenience. EVs are going to lose on utilty, mostly because of their limited range. They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see only the up-front cost. Without aggressive subsidies - and those are subject to political whim - EVs are in trouble. Convenience? At the moment, how EVs fare depends on which you consider more convenient, going to a gas station or remembering to plug it in. But something else might enter here. Consumers, especially wealthy ones, perceive themselves as busy busy busy even when they actually have lots of leisure. They embrace convenience and are willing to pay for it. I think you're right that EVs will succeed as a vehicle class at least partly on how universally convenient they are. One obvious way to increase EVs' convenience is for ICEVs convenience to fall hard and fast. Buying fuel was hugely inconvenient in some areas of the US in the mid- 1970s. In many areas, shortage-driven panic buying created blocks-long, hours-long waiting lines at filling stations. College students earned pocket money sitting in impatient and busy suits' cars, waiting for their 5 or 10 gallon gasoline allotment. For many reasons, I don't think that that particular scenario is likely to happen again. Fuel prices will eventually rise again, but that alone isn't enough to make large numbers of people desert ICEVs for EVs. Look what people are willing to pay for gasoline in Europe. So, let's think of some ways that EVs might become radically more convenient, ways that ICEVs simply can't match. Here's one: transparent inductive charging. Your garage has a standardized inductive charger in the floor; you park the car and it fuels itself without any active participation from you. (I know about the cost and efficiency issues. C'mon, dream with me for a minute. ;-) What if building codes required every new house or major renovation to include a universal, standards-defined inductive EV charger in the garage floor? Maybe you could include a square-area threshold at first, so that they'd mostly go into more expensive houses where the cost would be a trivial fraction. Mass production would eventually drive down the cost, and the square-area threshold could be lowered. Public parking lots might also be reqired to provide some minimum percentage of EV slots with this charging. Your EV could automatically sip electrons while you shopped. The EV would have a unique ID tag. Each month the cost would be billed to your credit card. You'd never touch a gas pump or a charger cord. Ads for compatible EVs could crow, No more smelly gas stations ever, and you never have to plug it in! Is this scheme really practical? Probably not. Passing legislation is a high bar in the US these days, so public money for this would be hard to get. Still, I've seen additions to building codes that add costs for builders go through. IMO there's a faint glimmer of hope for getting something like this into the codes - at least in some states. Something to think about. And anyway, we're dreaming here. ;-) Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match? David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match? David, Already there for me. Nearest gas station is 20 minutes away from us in West Sonoma County, California. If I am just using one of my EV's locally, I have to allocate an hour to go get gas. When people ask me how long it takes to fill my car, I tell them about 30 seconds. I get out, plug it in and go into the house. It is full the next time I need it. Also no gasoline smell when you are dressed up. In our little town of 1200 I am seeing more and more Leaf's, Model S's, Smart Cars, RAV4-EV's (1st and 2nd generation), and others. I saw my first Spark in town yesterday. I am sure that convenience is part of that for us. John --- John G. Blair Studio Occidental, California (about an hour north of the Bay Area) http://www.jgblairphoto.com - general photography http://www.johngblairstudio.com - commercial and stock photography http://www.johngblair.com - author website -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150527/e1eed730/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Peri Hartman wrote: And don't forget the battery replacement cost - perhaps after 10 years or 70K miles? Ben Goren via EV wrote: It seems that batteries are lasting at least as long as ICE engines and transmissions, and replacement new batteries are guaranteed to be much cheaper than replacement new engines or transmissions. It's too soon to know how long the batteries will really last. All we have are projections. But we *do* know that the EPA requires that the batteries be covered under warranty for 8 years or 100,000 miles. That's good for consumers; but maybe bad for the car companies that make mistakes and so have to eat the warranty replacement costs. Nissan already had a case of this with their early Leaf packs. It's not encouraging that they worked hard to weasel out of covering them. Another worrisome thing: The batteries in all the auto company produced EVs are custom. Will a replacement pack even be *available* in 10 years? Remember the auto company produced EVs from around the year 2000? Batteries are totally unavailable for all of them. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on each mile you drive your electric vehicle. To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are considering it. Al At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote: You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV. If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life the EV may save you $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the the cost of fuel rises. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
And don't forget the battery replacement cost - perhaps after 10 years or 70K miles? I think these hurdles will diminish but they are real for now. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Al Lumas via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 27-May-15 8:52:02 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. The savings in fuel cost will diminish if / when States adopt a tax on each mile you drive your electric vehicle. To offset the drop in gas tax revenue due to EV's one State (Oregon) has already adopted such a tax (1.5 cents per mile) and other's are considering it. Al At 08:30 AM 5/27/2015, Michael Ross via EV wrote: You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV. If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life the EV may save you $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the the cost of fuel rises. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On May 27, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: And don't forget the battery replacement cost - perhaps after 10 years or 70K miles? It seems that batteries are lasting at least as long as ICE engines and transmissions, and replacement new batteries are guaranteed to be much cheaper than replacement new engines or transmissions. That's two expensive components in an ICE you have to worry about, and only one in the EV. EVs are already ahead. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
I think EVs might be a better deal (at least the smaller ones like iMIEV and Leaf) than solar arrays. Solar needs subsidies to be a good economic deal for the owner, hte going rate for electrons makes a difference too. You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV. If you compare to a small good quality ICE getting 30mpg, over its life the EV may save you $15k, $20k more if you drive a lot and the the cost of fuel rises. THere is a lot od foregone maintenance as well with EVs. Solar at this time, where I live with low cost electrons ($0.10 /kWh), is not a great investment without subsidies. Those are threatening to go away. But my 2.5 year old system, might pay back like a decent dividend stock - but only because I got 30% back from the fed and 35% from the state of NC. Without the subsidy, it would be more like barely keeping up with inflation and it better give me 20+ years of trouble free service. Of course, YMMV; but OEM EVs, if you are the right use case, may be a good deal. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 10:11 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: “/The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant torque, zero emissions, refuel at home - just don't seem to be all that important to most people. Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have gotten better at a lot of these things./” They sure have! Ice powered vehicles today are very reliable, quiet, and powerful compared to a few decades ago. If maintained properly they can remain in service for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles. You can purchase a used one with 30k miles on it for less than half the new cost and expect to drive it for at least 100k miles relatively trouble free. That is very hard for today’s EVs to compete with. I don’t expect the market for EVs to increase much until they can offer similar performance and price. “/They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see only the up-front cost./” That is very much my experience. Solar panels are a great example. I live in an area that historically has had around 200 sunny days a year. Solar panel cost has dropped to less than ¼ what I paid in 2008, making return on investment very short here. For years I’ve had people remark that I am “lucky” that I don’t have to buy fuel, to which I respond that I just paid up front, they could do the same. But they look only at up-front costs, and can’t get themselves to spend that money even though they could afford it and the investment would pay for itself in less than 10 years. Those same people will purchase the most expensive new car they can afford, an investment that will depreciate quickly, but that they will derive more pleasure and status from. I think that is a big part of Tesla's success, a sexy, cool, high status car. But that is for the people who have the discretionary spending. Most here don't. For them its a no-brainer to buy that used ice car and drive it for more than 100k miles rather than a more expensive EV that has limited range and requires purchase of an EVSE. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675788.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150527/691f0efe/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On May 27, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Solar at this time, where I live with low cost electrons ($0.10 /kWh), is not a great investment without subsidies. That's damned cheap electricity. And, at utility scales, the only thing cheaper than solar these days is coal. Given that solar has no maintenance and operating costs worth mentioning, it's hardly surprising that solar is a good investment for individuals with capital; your capital costs are in roughly the same ballpark as that of the utilities, but you don't have to pay all those CEO salaries. CEOs, of course, want you to keep paying their salaries, which is why the utilities are trying to jigger their rate schedules such that, no matter how many panels you put on your rooftop, you still pay nearly as much per month to them. But those days will be very short-lived...utility-scale batteries from Tesla are already cheaper than natural gas peaking plants, and their amortized cost is competitive over the warranty life of the battery for homeowners, too. Already today, with both solar and battery prices in freefall for the foreseeable future. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
I just finished reading the article and I came away with the idea that the author could have substituted personal computer for battery, or laptop for battery, or any of the other technological wonders that only existed in the minds of Buck Roger / Star Trek fans. The question has always been one of when do I jump in and trade my abacus for a PC or PC for a laptop, or slower model for a faster model? It's getting there. Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles. The 2017 model of the Bolt, Leaf and Model E are supposed to have ranges of around 200 miles. Do I buy a Leaf today and borrow an ICE to reach an Atlantic Ocean beach? Do I wait until 2017 when I could reach a beach with a newer EV? Do I wait until 2018 when some poor driver has his or her car totaled and I can buy that pack for dimes on the dollar? Have you ever noticed how some of these titles are inflammatory? The author could have gone to: http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ and written how EV sales are rising rapidly and we would be replying to: Re:[EVDL] Design News: Why are Electric Car Sales Rising Rapidly? If he had plotted out the sales figures he would have seen EV sales taking off even in the face of relatively low gasoline prices and so-so economic activity: USA Worldwide March 2015: 10,341 41,988 March 2014: 9,650 24,267 March 2013: 7982 N/A March 2012: 3815 N/A March 2011:906 N/A He does have a point about the batteries but my guess is that he wrote the article in a trollish manner for clicks and views. I think he gets it but he does have to put food on the table. Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800 miles on a charge EV??? Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point. Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful thinking??? Let's see him write an article about that. Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model Leaf? If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in anticipation? If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack? Hopefully some of this takes away some of that in your face -ness of the article. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150527/baf16a37/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Let's talk about the bell curve. There are early adopters (us) who are excited and ready to buy or build an EV. There are some less risky adopters who are jumping in, too, as is evident from the rising sales numbers. But the vast majority - the hump in the bell curve are waiting. Waiting for what? It doesn't really matter what they say - as you can see there are a number of various opinions and statements from people. The only thing that matters is that they are followers. They won't do something until they feel like everyone else is doing it. That's true for any product, behavior, etc. in humanity. When the masses start catching on there'll be a huge woosh - the rising edge of the bell curve. With cell phones, I was part of the masses - not an early adopter. I had my reasons - poor voice quality, too many dropped calls. They were legit reasons. But the underlying reason is I had a land line and it worked well enough and I didn't want to have to deal with a new set of issues or problems. Why rock the boat? When everyone had a cell phone, I got one too. To finish the bell curve, there the last stragglers. They will keep their old technology (or behavior) until they are forced out. Can't buy a replacement part, product, etc. Ridiculed for wearing bell bottom pants. Meanwhile, a new technology is already on the rise with its new set of early adopters :) Peri -- Original Message -- From: Peter Eckhoff via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 27-May-15 9:03:51 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. I just finished reading the article and I came away with the idea that the author could have substituted personal computer for battery, or laptop for battery, or any of the other technological wonders that only existed in the minds of Buck Roger / Star Trek fans. The question has always been one of when do I jump in and trade my abacus for a PC or PC for a laptop, or slower model for a faster model? It's getting there. Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles. The 2017 model of the Bolt, Leaf and Model E are supposed to have ranges of around 200 miles. Do I buy a Leaf today and borrow an ICE to reach an Atlantic Ocean beach? Do I wait until 2017 when I could reach a beach with a newer EV? Do I wait until 2018 when some poor driver has his or her car totaled and I can buy that pack for dimes on the dollar? Have you ever noticed how some of these titles are inflammatory? The author could have gone to: http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ and written how EV sales are rising rapidly and we would be replying to: Re:[EVDL] Design News: Why are Electric Car Sales Rising Rapidly? If he had plotted out the sales figures he would have seen EV sales taking off even in the face of relatively low gasoline prices and so-so economic activity: USA Worldwide March 2015: 10,341 41,988 March 2014: 9,650 24,267 March 2013: 7982 N/A March 2012: 3815 N/A March 2011:906 N/A He does have a point about the batteries but my guess is that he wrote the article in a trollish manner for clicks and views. I think he gets it but he does have to put food on the table. Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800 miles on a charge EV??? Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point. Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful thinking??? Let's see him write an article about that. Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model Leaf? If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in anticipation? If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack? Hopefully some of this takes away some of that in your face -ness of the article. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150527/baf16a37/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On May 26, 2015, at 11:37 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here's one: transparent inductive charging. If we're dreaming, it's a wonderful dream. I don't think it's a very realistic dream, but it's certainly wonderful. As a bonus...going from inductive charging while parking to inductive charging on select stretches of highway wouldn't be that big a deal. It's even something that could be very beneficial without being close to a perfect solution. Just do grab the back of the envelope...if a typical car is consuming 300 Wh/mi at 60 MPH, that's 18 kW / car. Round up to 20 kW for losses and to make the math easier. Even if a roadway could only deliver 5 kW / car, less than many of today's in-home chargers, that still extends range by 25%. Your 300-mile-range car almost becomes a 400-mile-range car. But, honestly? I think EVs are going to get a _lot_ more popular once 200 miles is the range of the base model econobox and 300 miles is not uncommon in top-of-the-line models. Rapid charging infrastructure or no. You can put 300 miles of range in a 300 Wh/mi car in 8 hours at 220 V / 50 A. Almost nobody drives 300 miles in a day, and almost everybody has the car parked at home at least 8 hours a day. With even minimal rapid-charging infrastructure, such a car is a direct replacement for today's ICE vehicle -- even for vacation road trips. Drive ~250 miles; four hours into the trip and it's time for a break. Even if it takes half an hour to recharge, that's not a problem; most people would be taking almost that long just to stretch their legs or maybe grab a bite to eat. And when the break is over, you're ready for another four hours of driving before you plug into the hotel's charger for the night. If the rapid charging station has a restaurant, so much the better. Even today, just look at how you automatically expect the middle-of-nowhere gas stations along the freeway to have a restaurant of some sort. We're already expecting the next generation of EVs to be at that 200 mile range, and Teslas are already at that 300 mile range. Which tells me that the only _real_ challenge to EV adoption...is sticker price. When the price premium for an EV is comparable to what the price premium used to be for an automatic transmission over a standard, that's it. We can even see a direct parallel in very recent history: hybrid vehicles. They used to be much more expensive than their battery-less counterparts; today, they're only a bit more expensive and it seems like every other car on the road these days is an hybrid -- even a number of SUVs. Until the past couple months or so, I was decidedly pessimistic about our chances for surviving the end of cheap oil. I still don't think it'll be a walk in the park...but solar is already cheaper for utilities than anything else but coal, and Tesla's utility batteries are already cheaper than any other form of peaking production. That means that all kinds of money is now going to shift away from fossil fuels and into solar and batteries, simply because the utilities that don't do so are going to lose out to those that do. And, more importantly, because the CEOs will want to pocket the savings, themselves. That will, in turn, _very_ rapidly drive down prices for solar and batteries for the rest of us...quickly to the point that the utilities themselves won't be able to compete with local generation and ICE vehicles won't be able to compete with EVs. Imagine that, for a moment, so long as we're dreaming -- you've got an EV with a ~120 kWh pack and a ~400 mile freeway range. Next to your water heater (or wherever) is a ~400 kWh battery that both serves as a dump pack for your EV for rapid charging as well as all your other electricity needs. If you don't drive, you can go a week or two without sunlight depending on how much of an energy hog you are. And your roof is covered with enough solar panels that, even in the dead of winter, they'll collect enough that your batteries won't actually run out. I think most any American would consider something like that a very desirable luxury life...and I do believe we might actually, after all, be on track for me to live long enough to see something like it come to pass. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
“/The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant torque, zero emissions, refuel at home - just don't seem to be all that important to most people. Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have gotten better at a lot of these things./” They sure have! Ice powered vehicles today are very reliable, quiet, and powerful compared to a few decades ago. If maintained properly they can remain in service for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles. You can purchase a used one with 30k miles on it for less than half the new cost and expect to drive it for at least 100k miles relatively trouble free. That is very hard for today’s EVs to compete with. I don’t expect the market for EVs to increase much until they can offer similar performance and price. “/They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see only the up-front cost./” That is very much my experience. Solar panels are a great example. I live in an area that historically has had around 200 sunny days a year. Solar panel cost has dropped to less than ¼ what I paid in 2008, making return on investment very short here. For years I’ve had people remark that I am “lucky” that I don’t have to buy fuel, to which I respond that I just paid up front, they could do the same. But they look only at up-front costs, and can’t get themselves to spend that money even though they could afford it and the investment would pay for itself in less than 10 years. Those same people will purchase the most expensive new car they can afford, an investment that will depreciate quickly, but that they will derive more pleasure and status from. I think that is a big part of Tesla's success, a sexy, cool, high status car. But that is for the people who have the discretionary spending. Most here don't. For them its a no-brainer to buy that used ice car and drive it for more than 100k miles rather than a more expensive EV that has limited range and requires purchase of an EVSE. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675788.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: It's getting there. Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles. Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%. Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800 miles on a charge EV??? Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point. Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful thinking??? Let's see him write an article about that. IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current model LEAF batteries. Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model Leaf? If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in anticipation? If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack? We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option. Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF refresh for 2017. Cheers, -Jamie ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
I used 75 miles as the range because that is what Consumers Report is currently reporting and I'd rather use an independent testing number especially if reported range drops in winter. Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF refresh for 2017. Seeing the reported ranges increase from the pre-announcements is very encouraging. IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current model LEAF batteries. When I divide the Model S pack of 85 kwhr by the an estimated weight of roughly 550 kg for the total pack, I get a figure of 154 whr/kg. Granted that this weight includes the pack structure and wiring etc. and is an estimate from an online forum. If I add about a 1/3 for this weight, the energy density about doubles over a comparative LiFePO6 at around 90 whr/kg. When seeing the Jeff Dahn video of doubling to tripling of energy densities, it puts the above into doubt. On 5/27/2015 12:36 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote: On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: It's getting there. Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles. Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%. Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800 miles on a charge EV??? Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point. Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful thinking??? Let's see him write an article about that. IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current model LEAF batteries. Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model Leaf? If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in anticipation? If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack? We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option. Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF refresh for 2017. Cheers, -Jamie ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On 27 May 2015 at 11:30, Michael Ross via EV wrote: You didn't account for the roughly 75% reduction in fuel cost to own an EV. But that's the whole point. Many vehicle buyers don't! They think only of the up front cost of the vehicle. There are many reasons that someone might have that short-sighted outlook. Maybe we think the reasons make sense, maybe we don't, but that's a totally pointless (and off topic) discussion. With education you can change some of these people, but not many. For most of them, paycheck-to-paycheck is a life habit, and you can't change it. If you want them to buy EVs, you offer them EVs that serve their perceived needs (low purchase cost), or you write them off as EV buyers. My point was, since EVs have trouble competing with ICEVs on purchase price and (at least for some time yet) on utility, let's brainstorm some ways that EVs, and ONLY EVs, can be super-convenient for their owners. Then maybe they can compete on convenience and exclusivity. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On 26 May 2015 at 6:50, tomw via EV wrote: Plus today with instant everything, putting up with inconvenience is sooo yesterday. I think you're on to something here. The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the instant torque, zero emissions, refuel at home - just don't seem to be all that important to most people. Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs have gotten better at a lot of these things. (Who would have thought it?) I think it's fair to say that consumers buy their vehicles for both rational and emotional reasons. The rational factors are easy - cost, utility, convenience. EVs are going to lose on utilty, mostly because of their limited range. They shouldn't lose on cost, but most buyers don't think long-term and see only the up-front cost. Without aggressive subsidies - and those are subject to political whim - EVs are in trouble. Convenience? At the moment, how EVs fare depends on which you consider more convenient, going to a gas station or remembering to plug it in. But something else might enter here. Consumers, especially wealthy ones, perceive themselves as busy busy busy even when they actually have lots of leisure. They embrace convenience and are willing to pay for it. I think you're right that EVs will succeed as a vehicle class at least partly on how universally convenient they are. One obvious way to increase EVs' convenience is for ICEVs convenience to fall hard and fast. Buying fuel was hugely inconvenient in some areas of the US in the mid- 1970s. In many areas, shortage-driven panic buying created blocks-long, hours-long waiting lines at filling stations. College students earned pocket money sitting in impatient and busy suits' cars, waiting for their 5 or 10 gallon gasoline allotment. For many reasons, I don't think that that particular scenario is likely to happen again. Fuel prices will eventually rise again, but that alone isn't enough to make large numbers of people desert ICEVs for EVs. Look what people are willing to pay for gasoline in Europe. So, let's think of some ways that EVs might become radically more convenient, ways that ICEVs simply can't match. Here's one: transparent inductive charging. Your garage has a standardized inductive charger in the floor; you park the car and it fuels itself without any active participation from you. (I know about the cost and efficiency issues. C'mon, dream with me for a minute. ;-) What if building codes required every new house or major renovation to include a universal, standards-defined inductive EV charger in the garage floor? Maybe you could include a square-area threshold at first, so that they'd mostly go into more expensive houses where the cost would be a trivial fraction. Mass production would eventually drive down the cost, and the square-area threshold could be lowered. Public parking lots might also be reqired to provide some minimum percentage of EV slots with this charging. Your EV could automatically sip electrons while you shopped. The EV would have a unique ID tag. Each month the cost would be billed to your credit card. You'd never touch a gas pump or a charger cord. Ads for compatible EVs could crow, No more smelly gas stations ever, and you never have to plug it in! Is this scheme really practical? Probably not. Passing legislation is a high bar in the US these days, so public money for this would be hard to get. Still, I've seen additions to building codes that add costs for builders go through. IMO there's a faint glimmer of hope for getting something like this into the codes - at least in some states. Something to think about. And anyway, we're dreaming here. ;-) Any more EV ultra-convenience ideas that ICEVs can't match? David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
On 5/27/15 1:15 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: I used 75 miles as the range because that is what Consumers Report is currently reporting and I'd rather use an independent testing number especially if reported range drops in winter. Sure, as we've all experienced, the ranges of vehicles (fossil-fuel or electric) are typically greater in warmer weather. It's fine to use something other than the standard EPA range rating when discussing EV ranges. But you might want to mention what you're using up front since folks will generally be comparing vehicles using the actual EPA standard. BTW, the EPA rating itself is a bit conservative compared to our LEAF experience so far. Our 2013 LEAF regularly gets higher than EPA rated range in the summer, lower in in winter. We get around 3.3 to 4.5 miles/kWh in colder weather and 4 to 5.5 miles/kWh in warmer weather (indicated). With roughly 20kWh usable from the 24kWh pack, that's about 66-90 miles in cold weather and 80-110 in warm weather at 100% charge for our mix of city and highway driving, generally in Eco mode (but with full power always available from the accelerator pedal when needed). Based on the Consumer Report number you quoted, it would seem that their experience is a bit different than ours. What model year did they test, and at what charge percentage? Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF refresh for 2017. Seeing the reported ranges increase from the pre-announcements is very encouraging. Yes indeed. IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current model LEAF batteries. When I divide the Model S pack of 85 kwhr by the an estimated weight of roughly 550 kg for the total pack, I get a figure of 154 whr/kg. Granted that this weight includes the pack structure and wiring etc. and is an estimate from an online forum. If I add about a 1/3 for this weight, the energy density about doubles over a comparative LiFePO6 at around 90 whr/kg. When seeing the Jeff Dahn video of doubling to tripling of energy densities, it puts the above into doubt. A quick search shows the Model S battery pack referred to as 240 Wh/kg and the LEAF at 140 on various internet reports. If those are accurate, then the Tesla Model S pack would be about 1.7 times the energy density of today's LEAF's pack, so not quite double. Cheers, -Jamie On 5/27/2015 12:36 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote: On 5/27/15 10:03 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: It's getting there. Right **now** the Leaf has a range of 75 miles. Actually the current model LEAF is rated at 84 miles EPA range. The old rating was based on an average between the at-the-time recommended 80% charge and a 100% charge. Along with changes in battery chemistry Nissan removed the option to automatically charge to 80%. Now for a big question, if the 2017 Leaf pack stays the same volume wise and the range goes from 75 to say 225 miles, what would happen if that pack chemistry were transferred in kind to the Tesla Model S? Ans: ~800 miles on a charge EV??? Suddenly, Gulf Coast beaches are in range as well as Cape Cod beaches from a central North Carolina starting point. Is this just a pleasant thought nearing reality or am I just wishful thinking??? Let's see him write an article about that. IIRC, Tesla's batteries are already twice as energy dense as the current model LEAF batteries. Would a $6K 2015 Leaf replacement pack still cost $6K for the 2017 model Leaf? If people realize this, would current EV sales begin to drop in anticipation? If I buy a 2015 Leaf today, would I be able to trade up to a 2017 chemistry pack or pack? We await word from Nissan on all of this. Longer range replacement packs for existing LEAFs would be a great option. Rumors are flying about a 30kWh pack for the 2016 LEAF. If true, that would likely get the range up over 100 miles EPA. Beyond that, public comments from Nissan execs point to an upcoming 150 to 200+ mile LEAF refresh for 2017. Cheers, -Jamie ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.
Just put a 50kwh battery pack in your Jetta. Sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2015, at 10:39 PM, len moskowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cor wrote: Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion. Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25 or 30 miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to travel 70 to 100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm not going to rent a car once or twice a week - too much expense and wasted time. The need is not rare for me. Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make it 150 or 200 miles or it's not enough. And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should cost the same. Know where I can get one? Len Moskowitz ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
That is my experience too Peri, most people haven't thought much about it. They have very little awareness of evs, and the general perception is they cost more, take a long time to refuel, have less places to refuel, and don't go far enough to be useful except for in town. All pretty much true I think at this point for evs that cost less than $50k. You have to be willing to adapt, and most people are not, plus they tend to exaggerate some of those points. For example when I say my car has about 75 mile range, then tell them I can drive to which is about 30 miles away and back without charging they are surprised, indicating they haven't thought much about distances either. The Volt solves some of those issues but there is still higher cost and the need to install an EVSE. Plus today with instant everything, putting up with inconvenience is sooo yesterday. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675777.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.
Len, I am with you. But, if you make a fair accounting of the cost of fuel versus the cost of electrons - it does look a lot better. Then you can reasonably say that the EV is better for the environment. That much is true but many folks won't let that sway them. In the even more intangible side - you don't get to freely choose what kind of EV to buy. You want a used EV, you have little to target particularly if you are in the middle or on the right coast. It is getting close, but I it is still a costly decision. If you are not approaching wealthy then it is not yet an option. On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 11:39 PM, len moskowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cor wrote: Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion. Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25 or 30 miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to travel 70 to 100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm not going to rent a car once or twice a week - too much expense and wasted time. The need is not rare for me. Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make it 150 or 200 miles or it's not enough. And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should cost the same. Know where I can get one? Len Moskowitz ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150526/87dc7393/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.
Hi Len, I found my $4000 EV on Craigslist and drive it almost every day. Unfortunately, you are still one of the people that find their daily driving needs not met by most EVs due to the still limited range. Not a problem for most people in practice, but it is for some, even though you could still use an EV on most days - you would need to have both ICE and EV, just like I do - only it is always me driving the EV and rarely do I need to use the Prius. There are plenty developments under way that will soon (within a decade) make EVs have a standard range equal to today's ICE, for less cost than today's EVs but it needs the steps to bring the fundamental research results into products and that takes several years at minimum. Hang on, we'll get there. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of len moskowitz via EV Sent: Monday, May 25, 2015 8:39 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery. Cor wrote: Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion. Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25 or 30 miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to travel 70 to 100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm not going to rent a car once or twice a week - too much expense and wasted time. The need is not rare for me. Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make it 150 or 200 miles or it's not enough. And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should cost the same. Know where I can get one? Len Moskowitz ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.
Cor wrote: Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion. Perhaps so, but with a 1990 Jetta lead-acid conversion that does only 25 or 30 miles on a charge, and a very rare week that doesn't require me to travel 70 to 100 miles a day at least once, I need an ICE vehicle. I'm not going to rent a car once or twice a week - too much expense and wasted time. The need is not rare for me. Even an EV that could do 70 miles on a charge would be inadequate. Make it 150 or 200 miles or it's not enough. And since I buy my vehicles used for under $10,000, that used EV should cost the same. Know where I can get one? Len Moskowitz ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.
On 23 May 2015 at 18:35, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion. Or use mass transit - if you can. If I'm not mistaken, in most European cities, and even in a lot of semi- rural areas, there's usually a train station within EV range. I don't know what the parking situation is at train stations, but assuming that's possible, you should be able to handle a lot of your long distance travel that way. I suppose you might consider going by train to be less convenient, because you may have to change trains. IMO that's offset by the fact that on the way you can relax, read, work, or sleep. You'll arrive refreshed instead of frazzled from traffic. To me that's worth a lot. Unfortunately, here in the US, we don't seem have mass transit that supports this scheme. We do have buses. I've tried to use them. Maybe it's better in big cities, but I ran into problems with the bus stations being too far away for EV range, and with parking at the bus stations. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
True, new concepts take time to catch on. We who own EVs know these are unfounded fears. I would be apprehensive of selling my car and moving to a big city and using mass transits because I've always lived in rural areas but many people get by just fine like that. Sent from my iPhone On May 23, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's difficult for us EV enthusiasts to know what the rest of the world thinks. So I went and asked three non EV people their opionions. These are moderately affluent people who are married and own two cars per household. I'll present their stories here but won't try to interpret their meanings too much. I posed the question like this: Suppose one of your cars broke down and you decided it wasn't worth fixing. You're going to buy a new car. Why would or would not you choose an electric vehicle? 1. I'd probably choose a gas car. Don't I have to install some sort of charging system at home? That might be difficult. And are there enough charging stations around? I don't know if I would need to charge while driving places. Of course, my wife hardly drives a few miles each day, she would never run out of charge. 2. I hear that Tesla is coming out with a 200 mile range EV for around $40K in a few years. I think I'd rather wait for that rather than buy a car that doesn't really fit my needs. 3. To buy an EV, I spend more and get less car. With my gas car, I don't have to plan ahead. If I need to go a long distance, I just go. (Me: what about using your wife's car?) Well, she might be using it to go a longer distance at the same time. I could have asked more questions and led the discussions but I more or less just left it. In the last case, it's evident that renting a car or using a service like car2go for the rare cases where both people need to go long distances either seemed too inconvenient or wasn't considered. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 20-May-15 4:28:29 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. Well I am sorry he got annoyed and left but I still disagree. All we are seeing is the adoption curve. Any new technology takes time to be mass accepted. Before the lithium battery electric vehicles were a novelty. Now they are here to stay. Sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2015, at 1:45 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 19 May 2015 at 22:52, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi Arak and all, Well you did say that since EV's didn't fit 30% of the population needs it wasn't good on an EV list kind of should expect blowback. Well said Jerry, but Arak isn't listening. Thus challenged, he got indignant and unsubscribed. :-( Let us not forget the immortal Fidonet Principles: Thou shalt not be too annoying. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed. I'm sympathetic with some of his points, though. Most of us here don't think EVs have to manage all the missions and trips that ICEVs can, but we're not normal vehicle buyers. The average person is not going to pay an ICEV price for a car that does less and covers fewer of his transporation needs than an ICEV does. That's just normal, rational consumer behavior. To really take off, EVs that look and cost like ICEVs have to work like ICEVs. EVs that don't, don't. Hint, hint. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery.
unknown makes unloved If I here (in Silicon Valley) ask how I can go to San Francisco, the people start to explain which freeways I need to take: 101 or 280! When I probe a bit more any alternatives? then they become creative: you could drive up Skyline (35) or take 1 along the coast... It does not enter their mind that I might want to go by train or bus or taxi or even ride my bicycle on the Bay Trail to get to the city. The car is so engrained, that people only choose from the solutions that they would take themselves, because they know them. Similar to EV. Plenty EV'ers have found out that their EV is their main vehicle, that it suits 90+% of their driving needs and they either rent, borrow or share a long-range vehicle for the rare occasion. That all sounds like a hassle to people raised with the status quo of liquid fuel cars and it also paves the way for non-starter solutions like Hydrogen to collect a following, even though it is a lose-lose-lose proposition. (CO2 production goes up; infrastructure spending goes through the roof and the operational cost is higher - not to mention the risks inherent to this fuel) Luckily I see some battery developments in progress that will make Hydrogen irrelevant, so the lobbyists will soon find a closed door, but it will take a few more years, so we will have to endure that madness for a little longer. In the mean time, companies like Tesla make the EV a desired item, not a hassle and Nissan has paved the way to get masses into the EV driver seat, so we just need to stay steady with the message that you are driving your EV for free, compared to the expenses of an ICE and people will continue to be curious how they can also lower the cost of their worst habit and the increasing competition in the market will also drive the price down, in addition to ever better range and charge speed. I heard from solar installers that about 50% of households who get an EV, also opt to install solar if they can, so they not only have freed themselves from paying for their fuel from that moment onwards, but also eliminated the impact on the environment for their driving habit. To come back to the 3 interviewed persons - now that they are questioned about it, they may realize that they answered without actually knowing all that much, so they might ask others or question their own opinion. If they find acceptable answers from a reliable source (someone they trust relates how they enjoy their EV) then they may very well change their opinion - it is an opinion after all... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2015 2:12 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better?It's the battery. True, new concepts take time to catch on. We who own EVs know these are unfounded fears. I would be apprehensive of selling my car and moving to a big city and using mass transits because I've always lived in rural areas but many people get by just fine like that. Sent from my iPhone On May 23, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's difficult for us EV enthusiasts to know what the rest of the world thinks. So I went and asked three non EV people their opionions. These are moderately affluent people who are married and own two cars per household. I'll present their stories here but won't try to interpret their meanings too much. I posed the question like this: Suppose one of your cars broke down and you decided it wasn't worth fixing. You're going to buy a new car. Why would or would not you choose an electric vehicle? 1. I'd probably choose a gas car. Don't I have to install some sort of charging system at home? That might be difficult. And are there enough charging stations around? I don't know if I would need to charge while driving places. Of course, my wife hardly drives a few miles each day, she would never run out of charge. 2. I hear that Tesla is coming out with a 200 mile range EV for around $40K in a few years. I think I'd rather wait for that rather than buy a car that doesn't really fit my needs. 3. To buy an EV, I spend more and get less car. With my gas car, I don't have to plan ahead. If I need to go a long distance, I just go. (Me: what about using your wife's car?) Well, she might be using it to go a longer distance at the same time
[EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
It's difficult for us EV enthusiasts to know what the rest of the world thinks. So I went and asked three non EV people their opionions. These are moderately affluent people who are married and own two cars per household. I'll present their stories here but won't try to interpret their meanings too much. I posed the question like this: Suppose one of your cars broke down and you decided it wasn't worth fixing. You're going to buy a new car. Why would or would not you choose an electric vehicle? 1. I'd probably choose a gas car. Don't I have to install some sort of charging system at home? That might be difficult. And are there enough charging stations around? I don't know if I would need to charge while driving places. Of course, my wife hardly drives a few miles each day, she would never run out of charge. 2. I hear that Tesla is coming out with a 200 mile range EV for around $40K in a few years. I think I'd rather wait for that rather than buy a car that doesn't really fit my needs. 3. To buy an EV, I spend more and get less car. With my gas car, I don't have to plan ahead. If I need to go a long distance, I just go. (Me: what about using your wife's car?) Well, she might be using it to go a longer distance at the same time. I could have asked more questions and led the discussions but I more or less just left it. In the last case, it's evident that renting a car or using a service like car2go for the rare cases where both people need to go long distances either seemed too inconvenient or wasn't considered. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 20-May-15 4:28:29 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. Well I am sorry he got annoyed and left but I still disagree. All we are seeing is the adoption curve. Any new technology takes time to be mass accepted. Before the lithium battery electric vehicles were a novelty. Now they are here to stay. Sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2015, at 1:45 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 19 May 2015 at 22:52, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi Arak and all, Well you did say that since EV's didn't fit 30% of the population needs it wasn't good on an EV list kind of should expect blowback. Well said Jerry, but Arak isn't listening. Thus challenged, he got indignant and unsubscribed. :-( Let us not forget the immortal Fidonet Principles: Thou shalt not be too annoying. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed. I'm sympathetic with some of his points, though. Most of us here don't think EVs have to manage all the missions and trips that ICEVs can, but we're not normal vehicle buyers. The average person is not going to pay an ICEV price for a car that does less and covers fewer of his transporation needs than an ICEV does. That's just normal, rational consumer behavior. To really take off, EVs that look and cost like ICEVs have to work like ICEVs. EVs that don't, don't. Hint, hint. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
How trite! Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable. Prior to now they were of limited value.I drive mine every day. Only time I don't drive it is when I use my truck to haul something or take the Corvette for a pleasure drive. From: len moskowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 8:20 AM Subject: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/02e165f6/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
It's the same old argument only its not valid. All we are witnessing now is the adoption curve. All new technology takes time to catch on. Everyone I have let drive my car said, oh, this is just like a car. 1 out of ten go out and buy one after driving one. In my experience Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Arak Leatham via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Not stupid at all. You just resent the facts presented in the case. If you want EV's to succeed, you need to face what potential customers think. Solve their issues, and whalla, Success! Stupid or not, those are your customers. The article just simply laid out their thinking. Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG ) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:31:52 -0400 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. From: ev@lists.evdl.org How trite!... Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable... http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 Here is my response to this stupid article: The basis of your uninformed claim Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an Innovative Battery is your century and 3 generation old legacy of gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking. Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of EV's. Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle transportation (and emissions)! Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1 on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car? You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking. Sure in 2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars. But by 2013 with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in America ($31k). By 2015, the average price* of all EV's ($29k) is now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car? And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing down that average cost (*after incentives). So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking) claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs? What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is completely misguided and fails. Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html Sorry for the tone. But it is gas driving authors with articles like yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery. The battery HAS SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car. Let those that can use it buy it and get out of the way. Sorry for the tone. But rants feel good sometimes.. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/5806538e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
I think the main point of the article is that most families that can't afford (or can't have for other reasons) two cars will continue to chose an ICE car over an EV. So BIG deal! Less than 1/3rd of Americans only have access to one car. So why can't these 30% get out of the way of the 70% solution which works perfectly for the other 70%. You can agree or disagree but until there are more EVs that are affordable and can go 200+ miles on a charge, he's claiming it's the battery, stupid. The car that can go 200 miles on a charge will forever be FAR LESS AFFORDABLE than the one that can go 80 miles daily and satisfy 80% of all drivers needs. Most of that 80% DON'T WANT a 200 mile range if it is going to cost them nearly DOUBLE the car price. His claim about stupid... should be Its education and understanding, stupid... This is the same lethargy of those clueless individuals who are still waiting for higher efficiency solar panels, when TODAY's panels cost less than a common window! And 83% of the cost of a solar system is the labor. They will be waiting forever... Wheras the existing systems can cut one's energy costs in HALF if they simply buy now. And every year they wait, they are losing a YEAR of free electricity for life... Rant off... Bob, WB4APR -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 19-May-15 8:31:52 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. How trite!... Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable... http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 Here is my response to this stupid article: The basis of your uninformed claim Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an Innovative Battery is your century and 3 generation old legacy of gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking. Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of EV's. Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle transportation (and emissions)! Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1 on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car? You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking. Sure in 2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars. But by 2013 with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in America ($31k). By 2015, the average price* of all EV's ($29k) is now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car? And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing down that average cost (*after incentives). So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking) claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs? What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is completely misguided and fails. Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html Sorry for the tone. But it is gas driving authors with articles like yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery. The battery HAS SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car. Let those that can use it buy it and get out of the way. Sorry for the tone. But rants feel good sometimes.. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/4eb49b79/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Then again you could purchase a second hand Volt/Ampera and drive electric for 95% of the time with a four cylinder ICE for longer journeys.Very cost effective now they are being released from business leases and I haven't fuelled mine for over two months. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, 19 May 2015, 17:02 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. I think the main point of the article is that most families that can't afford (or can't have for other reasons) two cars will continue to chose and ICE car over an EV. This is purportedly because, even though the EV will accomodate 80-90% of their driving needs, that other 10% is too much of a hurdle. That is, they don't consider renting an ICE car for that other 10% to be a viable option. You can agree or disagree but until there are more EVs that are affordable and can go 200+ miles on a charge, he's claiming it's the battery, stupid. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 19-May-15 8:31:52 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. How trite!... Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable... http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 Here is my response to this stupid article: The basis of your uninformed claim Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an Innovative Battery is your century and 3 generation old legacy of gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking. Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of EV's. Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle transportation (and emissions)! Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1 on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car? You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking. Sure in 2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars. But by 2013 with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in America ($31k). By 2015, the average price* of all EV's ($29k) is now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car? And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing down that average cost (*after incentives). So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking) claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs? What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is completely misguided and fails. Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html Sorry for the tone. But it is gas driving authors with articles like yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery. The battery HAS SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car. Let those that can use it buy it and get out of the way. Sorry for the tone. But rants feel good sometimes.. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/4eb49b79/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
I think the main point of the article is that most families that can't afford (or can't have for other reasons) two cars will continue to chose and ICE car over an EV. This is purportedly because, even though the EV will accomodate 80-90% of their driving needs, that other 10% is too much of a hurdle. That is, they don't consider renting an ICE car for that other 10% to be a viable option. You can agree or disagree but until there are more EVs that are affordable and can go 200+ miles on a charge, he's claiming it's the battery, stupid. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 19-May-15 8:31:52 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. How trite!... Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable... http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 Here is my response to this stupid article: The basis of your uninformed claim Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an Innovative Battery is your century and 3 generation old legacy of gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking. Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of EV's. Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle transportation (and emissions)! Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1 on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car? You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking. Sure in 2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars. But by 2013 with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in America ($31k). By 2015, the average price* of all EV's ($29k) is now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car? And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing down that average cost (*after incentives). So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking) claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs? What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is completely misguided and fails. Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html Sorry for the tone. But it is gas driving authors with articles like yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery. The battery HAS SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car. Let those that can use it buy it and get out of the way. Sorry for the tone. But rants feel good sometimes.. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Not stupid at all. You just resent the facts presented in the case. If you want EV's to succeed, you need to face what potential customers think. Solve their issues, and whalla, Success! Stupid or not, those are your customers. The article just simply laid out their thinking. Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG ) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:31:52 -0400 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. From: ev@lists.evdl.org How trite!... Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable... http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 Here is my response to this stupid article: The basis of your uninformed claim Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an Innovative Battery is your century and 3 generation old legacy of gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking. Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of EV's. Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle transportation (and emissions)! Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1 on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car? You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking. Sure in 2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars. But by 2013 with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in America ($31k). By 2015, the average price* of all EV's ($29k) is now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car? And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing down that average cost (*after incentives). So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking) claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs? What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is completely misguided and fails. Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html Sorry for the tone. But it is gas driving authors with articles like yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery. The battery HAS SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car. Let those that can use it buy it and get out of the way. Sorry for the tone. But rants feel good sometimes.. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/5806538e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
