Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-18 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
On Aug 17, 2015, at 2:58 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 But in full disclosure, I am a solar junkie, and if I remember correctly,
 you are a hydrogen lobbyist paid to undermine EV's in favor of the
 fool-cell hydrogen economy.  

You do NOT remember correctly:

- I am not a lobbyist.

- I have a long history of supporting, not undermining, battery electric 
vehicles. (and don't forget, fuel cell electric vehicles (careful your 
spelling)  EVs, too). In fact, my paid work involves recommending funding the 
purchase of battery electric vehicles and their infrastructure. 

- I also am a strong supporter of fuel cell electric vehicles (you got that 
right)

 Your painting of EV's with the coal brush
 undermines your credibility too.

I wasn't referring to your credibility, and I wasn't painting anything with a 
coal brush.  I merely pointed out that in an area where coal is a major part of 
electricity production, when the issue gets raised, an advocate would be better 
served to say that yes, a lot of electricity here comes from coal, BUT:

- you can cost-effectively charge it with solar; or

- you can purchase RECs; or

- (insert your favorite reason why buying a BEV is still a good option)

If you don't think that's a better strategy than denial to get more solar and 
BEV users, that's fine. Use whatever works for you.

I think you misinterpreted my earlier comments, but that no reason for a 
personal attack.

(And yes, I'm a strong solar supporter, too, and have spent my own time 
pressing for better policies and programs.)


 
 Bob
 -Original Message-
 From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
 Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 4:34 PM
 To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
 
 I think I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that if coals provides
 most power, it *is* an issue, and a matter of credibility if you don't
 acknowledge it.
 
 Sure, if there are options to avoid that, by all means, point those out.
 In fact, it doesn't really matter what % is using those options.
 
 I don't think I said anything about condemning EV owners.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 
 I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is* being produced by
 coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that.
 
 I disagree completely.  Electricity can be 90% coal in some areas, but
 if 83% of EV owners are putting up solar or subscribing to wind power
 then there is no need to condem all EV owners for coal when only 17%
 of them are using it and intend to continue to use it.
 
 Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal will be
 dropping fairly quickly.
 
 But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting.
 
 I'll be darned if I am going to be condemned for burning coal when I
 don't.  Just like I don't like the implication that if 20% of
 Americans smoke, then on average, I smoke 4 out of every cigarette in
 every pack of 20.  I don't smoke any and I don't use ANY coal for fuel
 for my EV.
 
 Bob, WB4APR
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing
 apparently pro-EV news releases?
 
 That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the
 Ford survey data.  It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging
 their EVs with PV.  It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED
 IN GETTING PV capacity.  That's a pretty substantial difference.
 
 Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its
 from the wanna-have-its.  So, this number doesn't really tell us
 anything about how many current EV owners are charging with
 alternative
 energy.
 
 What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and
 environmental consciousness.
 
 In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways.
 One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue
 pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts.  The other
 is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward
 promoting their dollars-and- cents value.
 
 Which is the right EV promotion strategy?  To determine that, we
 should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids
 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today.  If we see a substantial
 increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among
 cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at
 some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting
 EVs' economic benefits.  If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers
 still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the
 first
 strategy above.
 
 Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing
 negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers

Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
But in full disclosure, I am a solar junkie, and if I remember correctly,
you are a hydrogen lobbyist paid to undermine EV's in favor of the
fool-cell hydrogen economy.  Your painting of EV's with the coal brush
undermines your credibility too.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 4:34 PM
To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

I think I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that if coals provides
most power, it *is* an issue, and a matter of credibility if you don't
acknowledge it.

Sure, if there are options to avoid that, by all means, point those out.
In fact, it doesn't really matter what % is using those options.

I don't think I said anything about condemning EV owners.


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is* being produced by
 coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that.

 I disagree completely.  Electricity can be 90% coal in some areas, but
 if 83% of EV owners are putting up solar or subscribing to wind power
 then there is no need to condem all EV owners for coal when only 17%
 of them are using it and intend to continue to use it.

 Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal will be
 dropping fairly quickly.

 But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting.

 I'll be darned if I am going to be condemned for burning coal when I
 don't.  Just like I don't like the implication that if 20% of
 Americans smoke, then on average, I smoke 4 out of every cigarette in
 every pack of 20.  I don't smoke any and I don't use ANY coal for fuel
for my EV.

 Bob, WB4APR



 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing
 apparently pro-EV news releases?

 That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the
 Ford survey data.  It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging
 their EVs with PV.  It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED
 IN GETTING PV capacity.  That's a pretty substantial difference.

 Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its
 from the wanna-have-its.  So, this number doesn't really tell us
 anything about how many current EV owners are charging with
 alternative
 energy.

 What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and
 environmental consciousness.

 In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways.
 One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue
 pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts.  The other
 is to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward
 promoting their dollars-and- cents value.

 Which is the right EV promotion strategy?  To determine that, we
 should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids
 10-12 years ago, vs why they buy them today.  If we see a substantial
 increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among
 cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at
 some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting
 EVs' economic benefits.  If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers
 still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the
 first
 strategy above.

 Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing
 negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers.
 They have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very
 well at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with
 trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-17 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
I think I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that if coals provides most 
power, it *is* an issue, and a matter of credibility if you don't acknowledge 
it.

Sure, if there are options to avoid that, by all means, point those out. In 
fact, it doesn't really matter what % is using those options.

I don't think I said anything about condemning EV owners. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is*
 being produced by coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that.
 
 I disagree completely.  Electricity can be 90% coal in some areas, but if
 83% of EV owners are putting up solar or subscribing to wind power then
 there is no need to condem all EV owners for coal when only 17% of them
 are using it and intend to continue to use it.
 
 Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal
 will be dropping fairly quickly.
 
 But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting.
 
 I'll be darned if I am going to be condemned for burning coal when I
 don't.  Just like I don't like the implication that if 20% of Americans
 smoke, then on average, I smoke 4 out of every cigarette in every pack of
 20.  I don't smoke any and I don't use ANY coal for fuel for my EV.
 
 Bob, WB4APR
 
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
 ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing
 apparently pro-EV news releases?
 
 That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford
 survey data.  It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their
 EVs with PV.  It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN
 GETTING PV capacity.  That's a pretty substantial difference.
 
 Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its
 from the wanna-have-its.  So, this number doesn't really tell us
 anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative
 energy.
 
 What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and
 environmental consciousness.
 
 In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways.
 One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue
 pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts.  The other is
 to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward
 promoting their dollars-and- cents value.
 
 Which is the right EV promotion strategy?  To determine that, we
 should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12
 years ago, vs why they buy them today.  If we see a substantial
 increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among
 cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at
 some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting
 EVs' economic benefits.  If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers
 still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first
 strategy above.
 
 Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing
 negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers.  They
 have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well
 at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with
 trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants.
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
 Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me.
 To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
 webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-17 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing 
apparently pro-EV news releases?  

That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford 
survey data.  It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs 
with PV.  It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV 
capacity.  That's a pretty substantial difference.

Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from 
the wanna-have-its.  So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about 
how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy.

What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and 
environmental consciousness.  

In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways.  One 
is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs 
green cred or even increase these efforts.  The other is to say that the 
way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and-
cents value.

Which is the right EV promotion strategy?  To determine that, we should look 
at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why 
they buy them today.  If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other 
non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, 
that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing 
toward promoting EVs' economic benefits.  If the majority of non-plug 
hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor 
of the first strategy above.

Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR 
being dispensed by the traditional energy providers.  They have way more 
media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about 
EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal 
fired powerplants.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I see economics as being much less of a motivator than green
environmentalism.  Although I'm a 100% pro EV and Pro environment guy, I
do have to admit that operating an EV is  not convenient and is just
generally a challenge.  And I LOVE that challenge.

But if you try to sell EV's on economics, those people who buy on
economics alone will soon tire of the charging, and other challenges we
find so rewarding.

Besides, it is the fact that continuing to burn gas simply is not
sustainable and is ruining us.  Some people might not like hearing that,
but it's the truth and only people that believe it are going to be
motivaed to do something about it.  Some ride bikes, some walk, some drive
EV's.  But selling EV's entirely on its cheaper is not a winning
strategy in the short term especially with the cheaper gas for a while.

Driving an EV is simply the right thing to do (if it fits your driving
needs) and its fun.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 9:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing
apparently pro-EV news releases?

That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford
survey data.  It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs
with PV.  It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV
capacity.  That's a pretty substantial difference.

Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from
the wanna-have-its.  So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about
how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy.

What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and
environmental consciousness.

In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways.  One
is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing
EVs green cred or even increase these efforts.  The other is to say that
the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their
dollars-and- cents value.

Which is the right EV promotion strategy?  To determine that, we should
look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago,
vs why they buy them today.  If we see a substantial increase in Prius and
other non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that
decade, that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we
should swing toward promoting EVs' economic benefits.  If the majority of
non-plug hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues
in favor of the first strategy above.

Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative
PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers.  They have way
more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD
about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data
about coal fired powerplants.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me.  To
send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-17 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is* being produced by coal. So 
there's a need to avoid understating that.

Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal will be dropping fairly 
quickly.


Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing 
 apparently pro-EV news releases?  
 
 That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford 
 survey data.  It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their EVs 
 with PV.  It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING PV 
 capacity.  That's a pretty substantial difference.
 
 Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its from 
 the wanna-have-its.  So, this number doesn't really tell us anything about 
 how many current EV owners are charging with alternative energy.
 
 What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and 
 environmental consciousness.  
 
 In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways.  One 
 is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue pushing EVs 
 green cred or even increase these efforts.  The other is to say that the 
 way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward promoting their dollars-and-
 cents value.
 
 Which is the right EV promotion strategy?  To determine that, we should look 
 at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12 years ago, vs why 
 they buy them today.  If we see a substantial increase in Prius and other 
 non-pluggable hybrid sales among cost-conscious buyers over that decade, 
 that might suggest that at some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing 
 toward promoting EVs' economic benefits.  If the majority of non-plug 
 hybrid buyers still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor 
 of the first strategy above.
 
 Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing negative PR 
 being dispensed by the traditional energy providers.  They have way more 
 media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well at sowing FUD about 
 EVs supposedly increasing pollution with trumped-up, bogus data about coal 
 fired powerplants.
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
 reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
 email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-17 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Aug 17, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting.

In addition to this very important point, there's another equally-important 
point to be made.

Coal is nasty, yes. But so is petroleum. And even those EVs that are powered 
primarily by utility-scale coal-fired generators are to be preferred over those 
powered by gasoline. The greater thermodynamic and mechanical efficiencies work 
out on a per-mile basis in favor of EVs, for one...but even if they 
didn't...well, we've got lots more coal than we do petroleum, and we need the 
petroleum for plastics and fertilizer and lubricants and all sorts of other 
things that civilization would collapse without. Just shifting the personal 
transportation fleet from petroleum to coal would be more than reason enough to 
endorse EVs.

That we're shifting from petroleum not to coal but to solar is very good! But 
shifting away from petroleum to anything else is as important in the short term 
as shifting from anything else to solar is in the long term.

b
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-17 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
 I agree, but in some areas a lot of the energy *is*
 being produced by coal. So there's a need to avoid understating that.

I disagree completely.  Electricity can be 90% coal in some areas, but if
83% of EV owners are putting up solar or subscribing to wind power then
there is no need to condem all EV owners for coal when only 17% of them
are using it and intend to continue to use it.

 Fortunately, the amount of electricity produced by coal
 will be dropping fairly quickly.

But for 83% of us, it has dropped to Zero NOW. We aren't waiting.

I'll be darned if I am going to be condemned for burning coal when I
don't.  Just like I don't like the implication that if 20% of Americans
smoke, then on average, I smoke 4 out of every cigarette in every pack of
20.  I don't smoke any and I don't use ANY coal for fuel for my EV.

Bob, WB4APR



Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:05 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Who would have thought even a decade ago that FORD would be issuing
 apparently pro-EV news releases?

 That said, IMO we need to be a little more careful how we use the Ford
 survey data.  It doesn't say that 83% of EV owners are charging their
 EVs with PV.  It says that 83% of them HAVE or ARE INTERESTED IN
 GETTING PV capacity.  That's a pretty substantial difference.

 Regrettably I can't find a web resource that breaks out the have-its
 from the wanna-have-its.  So, this number doesn't really tell us
 anything about how many current EV owners are charging with alternative
energy.

 What it does suggest is a strong correlation between EV ownership and
 environmental consciousness.

 In terms of selling and promoting EVs, you can view this in two ways.
 One is that promoters should fish where the fish are, and continue
 pushing EVs green cred or even increase these efforts.  The other is
 to say that the way to increased EV adoption is to edge toward
 promoting their dollars-and- cents value.

 Which is the right EV promotion strategy?  To determine that, we
 should look at the reasons that owners bought gas-only hybrids 10-12
 years ago, vs why they buy them today.  If we see a substantial
 increase in Prius and other non-pluggable hybrid sales among
 cost-conscious buyers over that decade, that might suggest that at
 some point (though maybe not yet) we should swing toward promoting
 EVs' economic benefits.  If the majority of non-plug hybrid buyers
 still buy them for their greenness, that argues in favor of the first
strategy above.

 Either way, we have a big job ahead of us to counter the growing
 negative PR being dispensed by the traditional energy providers.  They
 have way more media clout than we do, and seem to be doing very well
 at sowing FUD about EVs supposedly increasing pollution with
 trumped-up, bogus data about coal fired powerplants.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-16 Thread harry henderson via EV
it is also possible for the % of EV owners who have solar panels to drop and 
for dirty energy to also drop, for example, if 100% of people drove electric 
but only 25% of them have solar then the % of dirty energy would drop since so 
many people are now using renewables.

while that might be an extreme scenario, the fact is as more and more people 
put up solar panels the % use of dirty energy will drop thus even if the % of 
EV owners putting up solar drops becuase we will still be using less dirty 
energy.  

but as many pointed out i also think % of solar of by EV owners will go up, 
solar is cheaper than grid [but it requires an initial investment] but the 
credit you get from buying an EV will cover a PV system that will provide more 
power than your EV needs 

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


On Sat, 8/15/15, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Saturday, August 15, 2015, 8:02 AM
 
 /You may power your
 EV from the dirty power in your state, but studies in
 2012 showed about 50% of EV owners charged
 their cars from 100% renewable
 solar or
 wind./  
 
 I
 didn't say I powered my EV from the grid, you just made
 that assumption
 and acted on it without
 bothering to check if it was correct.  Actually, I
 installed solar in 2008 the year before I
 converted the car, and supply the
 grid with
 6kWh/day on average in addition to supplying the house and
 car. 
 Most of the people in the local ev
 club do not have solar so I give the
 representative case, and also mention mine gets
 power from solar.
 
 /Now just last week (2015) the Ford
 survey found that 83% of EV purchasers
 charge from 100% renewables or will when they
 can. So quoting the grid mix
 is doing a
 disservice to 83% of EV owners.../ 
 
 Is that survey of Ford EV
 purchasers a representative sample of all EV
 purchasers?  Ford has sold a small proportion
 of the total number of EVs
 sold.  How many
 in the survey were in the will when they can
 category, and
 how do you know they actually
 will?  You are very quick to make assumptions
 that serve your case.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-facts-coal-and-shooting-ourselves-in-the-foot-tp4677154p4677170.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-15 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
On Aug 14, 2015, at 1:32 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:


 
 there's no longer a business case for utilities for new construction of 
 anything other than dirty coal,

Coal is dead in this country already. Name the last new coal plant announced.
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-15 Thread tomw via EV
/You may power your EV from the dirty power in your state, but studies in
2012 showed about 50% of EV owners charged their cars from 100% renewable
solar or wind./  

I didn't say I powered my EV from the grid, you just made that assumption
and acted on it without bothering to check if it was correct.  Actually, I
installed solar in 2008 the year before I converted the car, and supply the
grid with 6kWh/day on average in addition to supplying the house and car. 
Most of the people in the local ev club do not have solar so I give the
representative case, and also mention mine gets power from solar.

/Now just last week (2015) the Ford survey found that 83% of EV purchasers
charge from 100% renewables or will when they can. So quoting the grid mix
is doing a disservice to 83% of EV owners.../ 

Is that survey of Ford EV purchasers a representative sample of all EV
purchasers?  Ford has sold a small proportion of the total number of EVs
sold.  How many in the survey were in the will when they can category, and
how do you know they actually will?  You are very quick to make assumptions
that serve your case.






--
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http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-facts-coal-and-shooting-ourselves-in-the-foot-tp4677154p4677170.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-15 Thread Paul Dove via EV
It is because of the EPA enacted the cross state air pollution rule forcing 
states to reduce emissions. The cost of the upgrades makes natural gas plants 
more profitable so they quit building cole plants

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 14, 2015, at 5:24 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 On Aug 14, 2015, at 1:32 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 
 
 there's no longer a business case for utilities for new construction of 
 anything other than dirty coal,
 
 Coal is dead in this country already. Name the last new coal plant announced.
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[EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-14 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
  I also have gotten the coal claim, which I correct,
 giving the power generating mix in my state,
 but I get the impression they don't believe it.

You may power your EV from the dirty power in your state, but studies in
2012 showed about 50% of EV owners charged their cars from 100% renewable
solar or wind.  Now just last week (2015) the Ford survey found that 83%
of EV purchasers charge from 100% renewables or will when they can.

So quoting the grid mix is doing a disservice to 83% of EV owners and is
dead wrong by a factor of FIVE, because it IGNORES the fact that most of
the people buying EV's are also buying 100% clean electricity.

You are doing EV's a disservice by quoting the dirty grid mix.  Get a show
of hands in your local EV club.  In ours, 2/3rds of the EV owners also
have solar to charge them.

It is NO COINCIDENCE that most people who buy EV's also want to do it with
clean energy.

Using the grid mix is damning the future by the sins of the past.  Or its
like saying that because 18% of Americans smoke that I have an 18% chance
of dying of lung cancer (But, I don't smoke)!

And even if the grid mix is 40% coal, if 83% of EV drivers charge from
100% renewables then simple math shows that the -average- percentage of
coal electricity for EV drivers is then 40% * 17% or under 7%.  A far cry
from the grid mix you are quoting.

Plus, the use of coal since 2008 has gone DOWN by over 20% and keeps going
down!

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-14 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
You may be correct, but as EVs become ubiquitous, and not just the early 
adopters, the % of those using solar must decline. That is, unless solar 
becomes significantly more ubiquitous than EVs.

Better to be conservative with the numbers. (IMO, of course)


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 14, 2015, at 8:13 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I also have gotten the coal claim, which I correct,
 giving the power generating mix in my state,
 but I get the impression they don't believe it.
 
 You may power your EV from the dirty power in your state, but studies in
 2012 showed about 50% of EV owners charged their cars from 100% renewable
 solar or wind.  Now just last week (2015) the Ford survey found that 83%
 of EV purchasers charge from 100% renewables or will when they can.
 
 So quoting the grid mix is doing a disservice to 83% of EV owners and is
 dead wrong by a factor of FIVE, because it IGNORES the fact that most of
 the people buying EV's are also buying 100% clean electricity.
 
 You are doing EV's a disservice by quoting the dirty grid mix.  Get a show
 of hands in your local EV club.  In ours, 2/3rds of the EV owners also
 have solar to charge them.
 
 It is NO COINCIDENCE that most people who buy EV's also want to do it with
 clean energy.
 
 Using the grid mix is damning the future by the sins of the past.  Or its
 like saying that because 18% of Americans smoke that I have an 18% chance
 of dying of lung cancer (But, I don't smoke)!
 
 And even if the grid mix is 40% coal, if 83% of EV drivers charge from
 100% renewables then simple math shows that the -average- percentage of
 coal electricity for EV drivers is then 40% * 17% or under 7%.  A far cry
 from the grid mix you are quoting.
 
 Plus, the use of coal since 2008 has gone DOWN by over 20% and keeps going
 down!
 
 Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-14 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Aug 14, 2015, at 1:00 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Coal power is history. It is not
 because of more strict regulations (even though the polluter pays would
 have been nice for so many people suffering from the results of decades of
 burning coal) but simply the business case for coal is worse than for
 investing in clean power, so why bother?

So long as the coal miners and power plant operators have the option to 
socialize the costs of pollution from their operations whilst maintaining the 
private capitalization of the profits, coal continues to be the cheapest 
utility-scale power generation option. But, especially with Tesla's recent 
utility-scale battery announcements, utility-scale solar is now, at least on 
paper, cheaper than everything else other than dirty coal.

It will take some time for everything to ramp up, but there's no longer a 
business case for utilities for new construction of anything other than dirty 
coal, solar, and quick-response peaking supplement plants.

And it won't be that much longer before dirty coal loses out to solar, as well, 
from two fronts: first, because of increasing political pressure to stop 
subsidizing the private profits from public pollution from dirty coal; and, 
much more importantly, because solar is continuing to get cheaper whilst coal, 
even dirty coal, is on an irreversible upward price trend.

Even once the solar and dirty coal price graphs cross, we'll still be stuck 
with all the existing facilities. It'll be much, much longer before it'll be 
cheaper to build a new solar plant and decommission an existing coal (or 
nuclear or gas or whatever) one still in good condition. But these facilities 
have limited lifetimes, so we're essentially now approaching the upper limit 
for the total number of non-solar power production facilities humanity will 
ever have.

Utilities are especially paranoid about solar, though, because it's so cheap 
that you can put it on your own rooftop at a price competitive with 
grid-sourced non-solar power production. Your grid connection comes with a lot 
of overhead rooftop solar doesn't, including capital and maintenance for the 
power plants and transmission facilities and all the salaries and what-not; 
rooftop solar just needs the initial capital expense and damned little else, 
meaning you pocket all the difference, even if you have to front the capital 
yourself. Finance the capital the same way you finance the capital for the 
house itself or a car, and the utilities don't have much left to compete on. As 
such, there's a lot of incentive to defect from the grid...and every such 
defection drives up the average per-customer cost fro those left, creating an 
ever-increasing spiral of incentive to defect from the grid. As such, I predict 
that we'll eventually see coal plants shutting down because their operat
 ors have been put out of business by rooftop solar.

Cheers,

b
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-14 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Since it appears that the number of EVs powered by renewable energy
has gone from 50 to 80% in just a few years, why do you promote
to be conservative with the numbers? That is only doing EVs a
disservice, since both EVs and solar are becoming more and more ubiquitous
so much so that solar installing companies, even though they are growing
fast, they will not take any jobs that are a bit more challenging since
there is such a big and continuously growing market for them.
So, no need to be conservative. Coal power is history. It is not
because of more strict regulations (even though the polluter pays would
have been nice for so many people suffering from the results of decades of
burning coal) but simply the business case for coal is worse than for
investing in clean power, so why bother?
And for home owners it still pays off to go through the trouble of having
solar installed on their roof, especially if charging the EV will push them
into the expensive high tiers.
So, almost everyone buying an EV will consider how do I fuel it and ends
up with a cheaper solution when adding solar in the mix, so I see no reason
to change the message that the vast majority of EVs run on 100% renewable.

Personally I do not (yet) have solar on my home (long story) but I do use
100% renewable energy by paying a few bucks every month to Arcadia
(if you are interested - feel free to use my referral:
 https://myenergy.arcadiapower.com/referral/by/cornelis0519
So even though I have no installation on my own home, I do get 100% green
electricity for my EV.
This means that even apartment dwellers can fuel their EV with green power
if they choose to, obviously without the benefit of saving on their bill,
it is only helping in the I do my part in reducing my carbon footprint.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



-Original Message-
From: EV on behalf of Mark Abramowitz via EV
Sent: Fri 8/14/2015 8:46 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot
 
You may be correct, but as EVs become ubiquitous, and not just the early 
adopters, the % of those using solar must decline. That is, unless solar 
becomes significantly more ubiquitous than EVs.

Better to be conservative with the numbers. (IMO, of course)


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 14, 2015, at 8:13 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I also have gotten the coal claim, which I correct,
 giving the power generating mix in my state,
 but I get the impression they don't believe it.
 
 You may power your EV from the dirty power in your state, but studies in
 2012 showed about 50% of EV owners charged their cars from 100% renewable
 solar or wind.  Now just last week (2015) the Ford survey found that 83%
 of EV purchasers charge from 100% renewables or will when they can.
 
 So quoting the grid mix is doing a disservice to 83% of EV owners and is
 dead wrong by a factor of FIVE, because it IGNORES the fact that most of
 the people buying EV's are also buying 100% clean electricity.
 
 You are doing EV's a disservice by quoting the dirty grid mix.  Get a show
 of hands in your local EV club.  In ours, 2/3rds of the EV owners also
 have solar to charge them.
 
 It is NO COINCIDENCE that most people who buy EV's also want to do it with
 clean energy.
 
 Using the grid mix is damning the future by the sins of the past.  Or its
 like saying that because 18% of Americans smoke that I have an 18% chance
 of dying of lung cancer (But, I don't smoke)!
 
 And even if the grid mix is 40% coal, if 83% of EV drivers charge from
 100% renewables then simple math shows that the -average- percentage of
 coal electricity for EV drivers is then 40% * 17% or under 7%.  A far cry
 from the grid mix you are quoting.
 
 Plus, the use of coal since 2008 has gone DOWN by over 20% and keeps going
 down!
 
 Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] EV facts, coal and shooting ourselves in the foot

2015-08-14 Thread Bill Dube via EV
What is often overlooked is that as EV grow in popularity, electricity 
saving devices also become more popular. I think the two trends may 
balance out the total home electricity use, at least to some extent.


LED light bulbs, energy efficient TV's (remember CRT's and projection 
type big screens?) energy efficient appliances, better home insulation, 
heat-pumps, etc. all act to reduce our electrical use. EV's will become 
more popular, and will cause residential electrical consumption to 
increase, but that increase will be offset, perhaps in large part, by 
reductions in electricity consumption due to the purchase of more 
efficient appliances, lights, heating, etc.


It is important to look at the entire advances in technology 
landscape, rather than one small piece in isolation.


Bill Dube'
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