Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-31 Thread rayfellow via EV
Hi MW.
I think your post hits the EV vs FC issues square on the head. I am a
lurker, mostly, and crave information about the future of personal
transportation. When I talk with others about what's out there, I find it
most useful to understand the difference between EV, FC and ICE. The
efficency differences, the Government attitude (support) and perspective of
businesses (big oil, auto industry, utility companies) all factor into the
overall effect of why and what is happening.

This Forum is my main source of unfiltered information. I do understand that
the Forum's original participants are mostly folks who build Ev's and need
to share ideas of how best to do that. I think I see more folks interested
in the likes of Tesla and others bringing ev's to the masses (me!). 

Bottom line? I like it all and hope that the discussion continues to be
broad based - including enough on FC to understand the differences. 



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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-31 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
Hi Martin,

Nice post.  See below.

On Jul 31, 2014, at 9:25 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Hi Mark,
 
 I'll lay my cards on the table and say that I am distinctly anti H2 - *as a 
 short to medium-term serious contender for the replacement of petrol and 
 diesel-powered vehicles*.  

OK.

 I have no massive problem with research continuing into fuel cells whether 
 powered by H2 or anything else.

OK.

  However, what I and many others object to, is the use of vast sums of public 
 money being spent by Big Oil to continue their virtual monopoly on what is 
 essentially a basic human right to travel without relying on flakey or 
 non-existant public transport.  Big Oil currently has a monopoly because few 
 of us have the means to produce our own 'oil'.

Ok. I mostly get that. In fact, having spent part of my career  battling direct 
emissions by BO (small oil, too), and indirect emissions as you articulate, and 
pressing for alt transportation, I could have easily written that a number of 
years ago.

  If allowed to, BO will continue to run this monopoly by being the sole 
 providers of H2 as, again, it is effectively impossible for individuals to 
 'roll their own'.

This is where I think you need to reevaluate. 

BO is not part of any monopoly of H2 suppliers. H2 is mostly NOT from BO. 
Most H2 right now come from industrial gas companies, who are not related to BO.

When CARB went to pass a rule requiring BO to put in fueling infrastructure for 
H2, one company even said something along the lines of why should we pay to 
speed our own demise.

As I've recently pointed out here, you should take a look at who is getting 
funding from the state to put in H2 fueling infrastructure. In fact, look at 
who has applied. You will see no BO names there.

Lastly, take a look at the membership of both the CA Fuel Cell Partnership and 
the California Hydrogen Business Council (where I am currently board 
president). You won't see any BO names either. BO used to be part of the 
Partnership, but dropped out years ago.

So please look at the facts on BO involvement. You'll see a few things here and 
there, Shell ownership of the Torrance station, which actually gets their H2 
from a different (none BO) company. But fact is, they have little, if any, 
involvement.

 
 Electric vehicles, on the other hand, are an entirely different matter.  
 Today it is quite possible for an individual to generate all the electricity 
 s/he could need - including that for an EV - on the roof of their own house 
 (assuming it is big enough).  This idea scares the Hell out of Big Oil for 
 obvious reasons.

Not much of the energy comes that way, though you are right, it could. Almost 
none of the infrastructure being paid for by public funds is produced that way 
either.

As far as H2, most is not produced that way either. And while it currently 
isn't economically feasible (by most measures) to do so, it is also possible.

There is at least one unit on the market that can do this, at least one other 
that is in development, with more to come as technology improves and costs 
drop. But this is certainly longer term, and as you say, today we can do that 
with BEVs.

But as far as the renewable aspect of the fuel, there has been a real 
groundswell in the industry that is demanding renewable H2.

The OEMs are saying that their customers want it. They are saying that their 
customers want clean vehicles, and renewable fuels are part if that. 

And I am also seeing a recognition among the industrial gas companies that 
recognize that to be successful, they will need to provide renewable hydrogen. 


 
 That is my principle problem with H2FCVs.

Understood, but the main premise of your reason is not correct factually. 

 
 But it does not stop there.  There are many other very good reasons why 
 H2FCVs are a 'bad idea' and the very next one on my list is the fact that the 
 efficiency of the whole system is dreadful when compared to BEVs - barely 
 better than ICEVs.  I'll let others name the rest of the list - or you could 
 research it yourself... Start with the fact that Southern California is 
 talking about installing just a dozen H2 refuelling stations at a combined 
 cost of some $6m and then consider that there are some 120 thousand gas 
 stations in the US... On the other hand, consider that every single home in 
 the land has at least one EV 'refuelling station' in it already in the form 
 of a standard mains receptacle...

Though this almost argues for putting *no* funding into BEV infrastructure, if 
every house has a station already. I disagree with that, but that's only my 
opinion.

Clearly, there are pros and cons with every technology, H2 and BEVs included. 
That's why there is no silver bullet.


 
 To my mind, spending the, frankly, obscene amounts of public money that 
 providing even a barely adequate H2 refuelling infrastructure would cost 
 rather than one the one hundredth of that amount that 

Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-30 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
Unless you demand purity, IMO the future (actually being done currently, too) 
are hybrid versions of both, depending on application and state of the 
technology at that particular time.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 29, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 Let me ask the question slightly differently.  Would there be an advantage to 
 EVDL members to include FCEV along with BEV  discussions on the same list?  
 Would this advantage outweight any disadvantages?
 
 In my opinion, the advantages are worth it.  While current technology shows 
 that batteries are a more efficient medium than hydrogen, I think it's 
 worthwhile to keep informed about progress and new understandings.  I, 
 personally, would rather do this on one list (or forum, etc.) than multiple.  
 On the other hand, if the bandwidth degenerates into feuds, we may have to go 
 the route of EV racing discussions - banned.
 
 Peri
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: 29-Jul-14 10:30:22 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion
 
 The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the
 internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ...
 can [be a] ... fuel cell ...
 
 But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or
 so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2.
 We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2
 discussion.
 
 Was that a mistake? Is it a mistake to continue on that road? The folks
 who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so.
 
 Well, if it is, we're still making it today. (Hint, hint.)
 
 You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike
 broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite. Unlike newspapers
 and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far.
 
 There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one.
 Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can
 congregate. If not, it's almost trivial to start one.
 
 Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions:
 
 http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
 
 Please read point 2f.
 
 Thanks,
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-30 Thread Tom Keenan via EV
My vote is to retain the rules as is.  As noted previously,  the endless 
production horizon blather of FCEV and H2 is available elsewhere, and generates 
much more heat than light here.

Tom Keenan
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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-30 Thread Chris Tromley via EV
I also agree we should limit discussion of FCEVs.  There will certainly be
leaks on the list about major new advances.  When FCEVs appear to be on a
similar energy-footprint basis (i.e. energy-viable) as EVs we can revisit
the issue.

To respond to one poster's observation about the invective seen in FCEV
discussions, please realize this is one of the most open-minded, yet
grounded-in-reality groups I've seen.  We can all agree that struggling
technologies need to be given room to grow.  It's pretty easy to show that
FCEVs have a LOT of growing to do.  What gets our backs up is claims that
FCEVs are needed now when the tech is clearly not there yet, or worse, that
they're ready now.

They're not.  I hope they become so soon, because then there will be no
need for invective.

Chris
On Jul 30, 2014 7:55 AM, Tom Keenan via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 My vote is to retain the rules as is.  As noted previously,  the endless
 production horizon blather of FCEV and H2 is available elsewhere, and
 generates much more heat than light here.

 Tom Keenan
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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-30 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
 discussions on the evdl has
 exploded since the automakers have gone into production. I look at these
 'forced' current h2 fcv discussions on the evdl, as an 'invasion of the body
 snatchers'. That is, it is like the pro-h2 fcv guys want to take over and
 dominate the evdl (here we go again!).
 
 Anyone who has had pent up frustrations of not being able to discuss items
 defined as OT on the evdl, should not take it out on other evdl member
 because they either want take-over/destroy the evdl's EV-focus, or are too
 lazy to go elsewhere.
 
 
 {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
 --
 View this message in context: 
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVDL-biz-H2-and-FCEV-discussion-tp4670639p4670647.html
 Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
 Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-30 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
On Jul 30, 2014, at 8:19 AM, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 When FCEVs appear to be on a
 similar energy-footprint basis (i.e. energy-viable) as EVs we can revisit
 the issue.

How would you define this very specific criteria?

Comparable to those charging on the national average grid? worst state? Best 
state?Comparable to what kind of battery? Or is this just on an auto basis? Do 
you take into account energy used in production of the the power train? 
Disposal? Would some *batteries* be verboten?

Since this is energy based only, I guess that direct or indirect emissions of 
criteria, greenhouse, or toxic emissions don't count.

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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-30 Thread Dennis Miles via EV
 other topics decided by evdl members as OT that need to be limited.
 
  - The current evdl charter does not ban such OT discussions in passing,
 just
  limit them to be taken off-line/elsewhere quickly. People do occasionally
  drive too-close or over the white-line, but with a few honks from other
  drivers know to stay in their lane. It is less about absolute-conformity
 (
  nicht-EV verboten! ), but more about being focused with the EV-task at
 hand.
  This flexibility allows for the occasional stray into OT land, but the
 known
  evdl guidelines keeps most evdl discussions on-EV-topic, and not allowed
 to
  disintegrate evdl discussions into a disruptive-troll's cesspool.
 
 
  If you all will notice, the amount of h2/fcv discussions on the evdl has
  exploded since the automakers have gone into production. I look at these
  'forced' current h2 fcv discussions on the evdl, as an 'invasion of the
 body
  snatchers'. That is, it is like the pro-h2 fcv guys want to take over and
  dominate the evdl (here we go again!).
 
  Anyone who has had pent up frustrations of not being able to discuss
 items
  defined as OT on the evdl, should not take it out on other evdl member
  because they either want take-over/destroy the evdl's EV-focus, or are
 too
  lazy to go elsewhere.
 
 
  {brucedp.150m.com}
 
 
 
  --
  View this message in context:
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVDL-biz-H2-and-FCEV-discussion-tp4670639p4670647.html
  Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
 Nabble.com.
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[EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-29 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the 
internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ... 
can [be a] ... fuel cell ...

But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or 
so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2.  
We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2 
discussion.

Was that a mistake?  Is it a mistake to continue on that road?  The folks 
who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so.  

Well, if it is, we're still making it today.  (Hint, hint.)

You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike 
broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite.  Unlike newspapers 
and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far.

There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one.  
Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can 
congregate.  If not, it's almost trivial to start one.

Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions:

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

Please read point 2f.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-29 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Let me ask the question slightly differently.  Would there be an 
advantage to EVDL members to include FCEV along with BEV  discussions on 
the same list?  Would this advantage outweight any disadvantages?


In my opinion, the advantages are worth it.  While current technology 
shows that batteries are a more efficient medium than hydrogen, I think 
it's worthwhile to keep informed about progress and new understandings.  
I, personally, would rather do this on one list (or forum, etc.) than 
multiple.  On the other hand, if the bandwidth degenerates into feuds, 
we may have to go the route of EV racing discussions - banned.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 29-Jul-14 10:30:22 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in 
the
internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] 
...

can [be a] ... fuel cell ...

But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 
or
so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and 
H2.

We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2
discussion.

Was that a mistake? Is it a mistake to continue on that road? The folks
who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so.

Well, if it is, we're still making it today. (Hint, hint.)

You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike
broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite. Unlike 
newspapers
and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so 
far.


There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one.
Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can
congregate. If not, it's almost trivial to start one.

Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions:

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

Please read point 2f.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-29 Thread Michael Ross via EV
I think H2FC discussions are just fine.  You all can write poetry about
flowers and I might like to see that, too. I am just as interested in the
people who like EVs as the biz of EVs.

I go by subject line whether I read postings, and then author.  If I look
inside the posting and i don't find myself intrigued I delete it.  I don't
consider that a troubling act.  There is no way all the messages can be
exactly what I want so I am flexible.

At this time I am only slightly interested in H2FCs.  Less so than I am
interested in EV stuff.  I think H2 is not a great idea, but that is a bias
I should be wary about.



On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:30 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the
 internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ...
 can [be a] ... fuel cell ...

 But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or
 so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2.
 We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2
 discussion.

 Was that a mistake?  Is it a mistake to continue on that road?  The folks
 who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so.

 Well, if it is, we're still making it today.  (Hint, hint.)

 You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike
 broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite.  Unlike
 newspapers
 and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far.

 There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one.
 Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can
 congregate.  If not, it's almost trivial to start one.

 Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions:

 http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

 Please read point 2f.

 Thanks,

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not
 reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
 email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-29 Thread Michael K Johnson via EV
Speaking as a newbie to the list (last November), I've been surprised
by the levels of invective levelled at H2. There have been a lot of
assumptions that it cannot possibly ever be efficiently produced
without a bad carbon footprint, and lots (my perception) of ad hominem
attacks. I'd like to think that if we can find ways to efficiently and
cleanly produce new battery technologies, we could have our minds open
to the possibility of clean H2 generation, separating the issue that
in practice right now most H2 generation is very dirty from the
question of different forms of chemically storing electrical energy in
the long run.

Change to allow H2 discussion, or continue to ban it, but the
derogatory language about it gets tiresome and I'll bet it turns off
more people than just me. When looking for problems to police, if you
want to police H2 discussions, I would suggest to include in the
policing derogatory comments about the technology and people as well
as promotion and technical discussion thereof. Complaining only about
the promotion and letting the derogatory comments slide is kind of a
one-sided enforcement of the rules.

My 2¢, do what you like, I'm hardly a major contributor here. ☺

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 1:30 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 The original EVDL charter, written by our founder Clyde Visser back in the
 internet's dim past (1991) says, the energy storage device [for an EV] ...
 can [be a] ... fuel cell ...

 But not too far into this long history of the EVDL - I think about 1995 or
 so - we had a pretty detailed discussion about discussion of FCEVs and H2.
 We even took a vote, and folks decided that we'd minimize FCEV and H2
 discussion.

 Was that a mistake?  Is it a mistake to continue on that road?  The folks
 who say that H2 is the way forward surely think so.

 Well, if it is, we're still making it today.  (Hint, hint.)

 You know, one of the huge advantages of the internet is that, unlike
 broadcast spectrum, it's effectively just about infinite.  Unlike newspapers
 and magazines, it's dirt-cheap to make your voice heard, at least so far.

 There's room for lots more internet discussion forums like this one.
 Somewhere there has to be a place where H2 and FCEV enthusiasts can
 congregate.  If not, it's almost trivial to start one.

 Thus I will refer y'all to the EVDL conventions:

 http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

 Please read point 2f.

 Thanks,

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVDL biz: H2 and FCEV discussion

2014-07-29 Thread brucedp5 via EV
://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVDL-biz-H2-and-FCEV-discussion-tp4670639p4670647.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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