Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore Tesla

2015-10-24 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
To add to David's point:
Last Superbowl had an add from one of the "truck" manufacturers,
showing side-by side two scenes:
Young man standing next to their new model "manly" (oversized) truck
and the same young man standing next to a bland family sedan (which
could have been an EV).
Caption: Who do you find sexier?
It had nothing to do with the fact that the sedan is the smarter
choice in almost all cases of passenger transport, but the
advertisers know that people want a certain image and they play
on that image, allowing them to sell the vehicles that make them
the most money, not the vehicles that are best for their customers.

That is the power of advertising *and* greed.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via 
EV
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:18 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore 
Tesla

On 24 Oct 2015 at 6:44, dovepa via EV wrote:

> No one creates a market IMO.

Apologies for going a bit off topic here, but it's to make a point.

I'm not an economist so maybe I have my terminology wrong.  I don't know that 
it was actually "creating a market," but consider what the big automakers did 
in promoting trucks and SUVs.  

Until the 1980s, pickup trucks were for craftsmen and farmers.  The poor 
adolescent rural kid who had to drive his date to the dance in his dad's pickup 
truck was a standing joke.  Meanwhile, SUVs (Jeep, IH Scout, Land Rover, Nissan 
Patrol, Toyota Land Cruiser) were noisy and rode rough; they were mostly for 
sportsmen.  

Detroit wasn't happy.  They made big profits on big, gas hungry cars, but those 
cars were subject to the US "gas guzzler" tax, which hurt sales.  
They'd even had to downsize the Cadillac and Lincoln.

Then they hit on the idea of pushing big, gas-hungry TRUCKS, which weren't 
subject to the gas guzzler tax because they were supposedly work vehicles.

IIRC Dodge was one of the first to "civilize" a pickup truck with a fancier 
interior, softer springs, and noise proofing.  (They also made a pickup with a 
vinyl roof at one time!)  There was a long line of ads showing how trucks and 
SUVs could fit into a suburban lifestyle.  And what do you know - truck sales 
took off.  Today the top selling vehicles are often trucks.  That's the power 
of advertising.

So IF the automakers truly wanted to create demand for EVs (which as I say may 
not be the same thing as "creating a market"), either passenger car or truck, 
they know how to do it.  But right now there's no incentive for them to do so.  

It's interesting to contemplate though.  What if building their compliance EVs 
drove down EV component prices to the point where they were making MORE profit 
on EVs than on ICEVs?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore Tesla

2015-10-23 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
You only need to look at the vehicles that *do* have a
range extender such as the Volt and BMW and you have
an idea what amount of weight is added for that
particular function, especially if the range extender
is optional such as on the BMW so you can compare the
weight spec with and without...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 11:07 AM
To: tomw; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore 
Tesla

On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:18 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> Is it capable of the 50kW continuous
> estimated for the full size pickup?

For this sort of back-of-the-envelope guesstimating, you can use a 1:1 
conversion for kW and HP. Getting 50 HP out of a 1800 cc aircooled VW motor is 
no problem. Getting even more out of something smaller and lighter using modern 
engineering methods should be trivial -- especially if designed to run only at 
the speed that corresponds with peak power output. The VW engine fully dressed, 
including clutch and intake and exhaust and the like, weighs a couple hundred 
pounds.

Generators are just motors run in reverse. The HPEVS AC-15 makes 60 HP and 
weighs 50 pounds.

If the engineering team of a major auto manufacturer couldn't make a 50 kW 
system suitable for an hybrid with a gross weight less than that of the typical 
American passenger...that team should be fired.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore Tesla

2015-10-22 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Ben,
The irony is because urbanites prefer these "farm vehicles"
due to the tax breaks that apply even if you do not have a farm
and never take your 4x4 off the asphalt, but simply enjoy the
cheap vehicle that is (still) not required to be as safe as a
sedan or minivan, because it legally still classifies as a
stuff-hauling farm vehicle, even though half America uses it
as a passenger vehicle.
The lower safety requirements and lower taxes are really the only
reason that trucks (and SUVs that classify as truck) are so
overwhelmingly popular: you get a lot of vehicle for your money
and thus also larger margins for manufacturers, causing them to
favor and promote these vehicles even more.
Overseas they recognize this craze and the common tricked-out
4x4 truck with certifiably non-off road capable low profile tires and
oversized rims is known there as "boulevard-tractor"
referring to the crowd (cruising main street boulevard) and the
farm legacy of the vehicle (tractor).
It is high time trucks are recognized for what they are used for
and legally made equal to the safety and tax requirements of the
other passenger vehicles, that would take a lot of incentives
for these inefficient vehicles away.

I have driven a small light truck for several years, because that
was the affordable EV that I could get my hands on at the time
I was looking - not always the easiest choice but I do like the
utility of having a bed to carry stuff around for those times that
I need it, even though I have also managed to carry a 2-person
sofa bed in my Classic Prius or 2 50-gal drums.

So I would definitely be interested in a commercially available
EV light truck, just like what was the most common EV 20 years ago.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 11:26 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore 
Tesla

On Oct 22, 2015, at 9:35 AM, John Lussmyer  wrote:

> My truck cruises at around 30KW at 60mph.  A 10KW generator isn't going to 
> extend the range much at all.

Did I slip a decimal?

500 Wh / mile and 50 MPH (for easy numbers) is 2 miles per kWh is 25 kWh for an 
hour...or 25 kW.

I guess I did slip a decimal...sorry!

However, a pickup truck with, say, a 50 kW or even a 100 kW onboard generator 
(to add back the missing decimal) is going to be able to power much more than a 
small construction site and be that much more desirable to people who actually 
_use_ such vehicles. That, of course, is a rather different class of people 
from those who typically _buy_ them...it's a depressingly common irony to see 
impeccably-dressed people step out of immaculate huge trucks and SUVs and hand 
the keys to a valet at an expensive restaurant.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore Tesla

2015-10-22 Thread Joe Average via EV
I too have a VW Westfalia (1978) - very capable old vehicle. The 4WD VW 
trucks/vans based on the Vanagon (the next generation after the 1970s 
van) were incredible off road.


We take care of our hauling needs using a Brenderup 1205S towed by an 18 
year old CR-V AWD 5MT.


The great thing about these trailers is they weigh about 400 lbs empty, 
and can carry about 1000 lbs.


Perfect for all sorts of low powered vehicles.

Chris in TN

On 10/22/2015 03:22 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:


I do like the
utility of having a bed to carry stuff around for those times that
I need it, even though I have also managed to carry a 2-person
sofa bed in my Classic Prius or 2 50-gal drums.

I can attest that a '68 VW Westfalia Camper can do that sort of thing amazingly 
well.

And I still say that the ultimate in that type of light utility vehicle is the 
VW extended cab pickup built on the classic aircooled bus frame...you get four 
passenger seats, a good-enough size bed in the back...and the sides (not just 
the tailgate) fold down. I've even seen some that had under-bed lidded storage 
space.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore Tesla

2015-10-22 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Ben Goren said:
> VW extended cab pickup... I've even seen some that had
> under-bed lidded storage space.

Of course that is where the batteries go!
Both my EV trucks had the full bed available for cargo
as all batteries were under the bed (and in my current
EV truck, also a few under the hood for better F-R balance)

My statement about utility was to show that even though a
sedan can carry an amazing amount of cargo if you put your
mind to it (some people think you need a truck as soon
as you carry more than a bucket) there is still a field
where you want a truck: carrying dirty cargo (wet, soiled
or sandy stuff) or things that might leak, for example I have
carried serving pans for a full dinner for hundreds of
(homeless) people that we were serving with a group of
volunteers> Occasionally such a pan would splash contents
out and in a truck bed you don't care to have some soup
but in a (carpeted) vehicle that is very unwelcome.
I have hauled sandbags that lost pounds of sand while handled,
I have hauled mulch and compost and metal scrap and wood
and a lot of other things that I rather not put in the
trunk of a vehicle, but in a truck bed it is fine...

Carry a washer and a dryer for a friend or for ourselves? 
No problem. Carry a fridge? Go ahead. Carry both 12ft lumber
and 4 ft wide panels? just stack it in...
Need to move a big closet or 3-piece oversized couch?
All of that and much more has been moved by me for either
my family of friends (who appreciate my truck just as much)
so I am happy with the combination of (short range) EV truck
and Hybrid sedan (Prius) which is pretty much ideal as far
as I am concerned in allowing different tools for different
jobs without more vehicles than necessary...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup TruckBefore Tesla

2015-10-22 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Oct 22, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:

> I do like the
> utility of having a bed to carry stuff around for those times that
> I need it, even though I have also managed to carry a 2-person
> sofa bed in my Classic Prius or 2 50-gal drums.

I can attest that a '68 VW Westfalia Camper can do that sort of thing amazingly 
well.

And I still say that the ultimate in that type of light utility vehicle is the 
VW extended cab pickup built on the classic aircooled bus frame...you get four 
passenger seats, a good-enough size bed in the back...and the sides (not just 
the tailgate) fold down. I've even seen some that had under-bed lidded storage 
space.

b&
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