Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-28 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:06 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-28 Thread Michael Ross via EV
of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Sat 3/28/2015 10:53 AM To: David Rees; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-28 Thread Michael Ross via EV
EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:06 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-28 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 27, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The maximum battery running temperature was 68 degrees F Just to be clear...you're reporting the weather, right? You're telling us that, during the time you used the car that you're telling us about, the battery never heated

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-28 Thread Michael Ross via EV
Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:06 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well that just

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-28 Thread David Rees via EV
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 03/27/2015 12:50 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 26 Mar 2015 at 19:57, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge ... Sounds good to me. Solectria had a simple answer to this. They gave you a straightforward amp- hour meter. As

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Paul Dove via EV
My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then recharge fully to keep the

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 03/27/2015 06:53 AM, Paul Dove via EV wrote: My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Michael Ross via EV
*I was expecting similar or better performance on the Leaf battery.* As far as I can tell that was an unwarranted assumption. If anything is true, it is certain that LFP are an outlier in behavior to the other chemistries that have Li metal oxide positive electrodes. I heard Jack Rickard claim

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Paul Dove via EV
Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Lee Hart via EV
Paul Dove via EV wrote: My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread tomw via EV
Actually I think the flat V versus capacity of LFP is an asset. It is what enables you to use Ah used, a nice stable, repeatable measurement, that tracks Wh used quite well over most of the capacity of the pack (I've data logged battery V and I using 1 sample/sec and compared them). I've used a

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Michael Ross via EV
I think the main asset of LFP is it takes an extra 100C or so to ignite the electrolyte. They can burn just not as well as others) LFP has some real disadvantages too. It is somewhat more costly to manufacture due to it being necessary to make the positive electrode in an inert atmosphere.

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Michael Ross via EV
WIllie2 and I were having a back channel about this topic. Willie was thinking that LFP had a voltage simnilar to other chemistries. I thought others might want to see this too. Here is what the Handbook of Batteries 4th Ed. says. From Table 26.3 Characteristics of Some Positive Electrode

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-27 Thread Roland via EV
- From: Willie2 via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) On 03/27/2015 10:40 AM, Michael Ross wrote: WIllie2 and I

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 25 Mar 2015 at 18:07, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: The Honda EVPlus had much better range than the Nissan Leaf. When I was forced to give it back after six years and 60,000 miles, I could still drive more than 100 miles on a charge. And you lithium guys tell me I'm a derelict still thinking

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread tomw via EV
One way to approach it would be to use a look up table of measured vehicle energy per mile, and google maps (courtesy of USGS). The driver would be required to enter their destination. Present location would be read from a GPS. A proposed route map would appear on the screen, which the driver

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That works for me, and it pretty much sums up what LEAF V1.5 (2013-2015) displays right now. Good to know that it's a feature of one of the first-tier electric vehicles on the market. Gives one hope that it'll be a standard

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV
Good points, Ben. It's interesting to note how gas gauges are set up, psychologically. Here's one explanation: http://theappslab.com/2010/12/21/how-does-your-gas-gauge-really-work/ Compared to that, I appreciate the numeric charge percentage display on LEAF V1.5. Cheers, -Jamie On

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 26, 2015, at 9:22 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's interesting to note how gas gauges are set up, psychologically. Here's one explanation: http://theappslab.com/2010/12/21/how-does-your-gas-gauge-really-work/ Somehow...I'm not surprised. The newest car I own is a

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV
On 3/26/15 10:36 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For example, if the display shows 50%, then 50% of 20kWh is 10kWh. Why bother with the intermediate conversion to KWH? If you know how far you can go on 50%, then you are

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV
On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For example, if the display shows 50%, then 50% of 20kWh is 10kWh. Why bother with the intermediate conversion to KWH? If you know how far you can go on 50%, then you are done. With my 2011 Leaf, I know I can travel 10

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 26, 2015, at 7:23 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The car or some big computer can't read you mind, so if it is going to make an informed, accurate estimate - you are going to have to tell it what your destination is. You want accuracy, you have to tell it what is

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Jamie K via EV
On 3/26/15 8:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge, For a century or so drivers have done just fine with a remaining (usable) gallons of fuel gauge and a basic idea of how far they can make it on a gallon of fuel based on

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread Michael Ross via EV
‚Äč I also don't take well to stuff like the driver would be required to enter their destination, More or less this part of the thread is about how the Leaf has a crap way of reporting remaining range. It is inaccurate. The car or some big computer can't read you mind, so if it is going to make

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 26 Mar 2015 at 19:57, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge ... Sounds good to me. Solectria had a simple answer to this. They gave you a straightforward amp- hour meter. As you drove, it counted up; as you charged, it counted

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread tomw via EV
I think the ~70 Wh/lb is too low of specific energy for longer range ev's David. The lithium cobalt chemistry used by Tesla is much higher, ~250 for bare cells, and their battery pack is still ~1 ton. Would be nice to have about twice the Tesla cell specific energy. But I agree the NiMH seems

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-26 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 26 Mar 2015 at 6:26, tomw via EV wrote: One way ... a look up table of ... vehicle energy per mile, and .. maps ... The driver would be required to enter their destination. Great if you need navigation to get where you're going, but otherwise, I'm not so sure. This sounds like too much

[EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread brucedp5 via EV
% Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently % https://3d-car-shows.com/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives/ NISSAN LEAF BATTERY RELIABLY OUTPERFORMS CYNICS, CRITICS AND ALTERNATIVES March 23, 2015 By Gerald Ferreira [image

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV
Does anyone here know if Nissan implemented any technological responses to the failures in southwestern US? Those that are the subject o af lawsuit? All I know about is the test results showing deterioration under high temp and high SOC conditions. Did Nissan make any changes and when? Mike

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV
Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they have made some

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV
On 3/25/15 3:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: % Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently % Yes, but to be fair it looks like the quoted articles are about Europe. AFAIK the US problem was primarily in hot climates in some earlier models. It's been reported that the packs have been updated

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV
On 3/25/15 10:11 AM, Michael Ross wrote: Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer sun and you will see some deterioration like in

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 03/25/2015 10:34 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates. I know from personal experience that Nissan has been less than

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) On 03/25/2015 10:34 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV
you experienced. Time will tell. Cheers, -Jamie Peri -- Original Message -- From: Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 25-Mar-15 9:45:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) On 03/25/2015 10:34 AM, Jamie K via

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 25 Mar 2015 at 12:11, Michael Ross via EV wrote: If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5 years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years. You and everyone else. This is much of what killed the few lead-battery EVs offered in the 1980s and 1990s.

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 25, 2015, at 12:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So maybe my analogy above is wrong. EVs vs ICEVs is more like satellite or digital radio vs traditional FM broadcast: they're better, all right, but they solve a problem that most users / buyers just don't

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 03/25/2015 12:37 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Willie2, it sounds like the Model S is a great fit for your needs. If 70% of the initial LEAF range meant it lost nearly all its utility then you were really on the edge with that car. Given the battery improvements since then, I would expect

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV
The LEAF instrumentation has changed since 2011/12. On the 2013+ LEAF models, there is a new percentage of charge remaining display option - a useful improvement. Also, the guess-o-meter, the miles remaining display, has an improved algorithm. Using the percentage of charge display and the

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Bob Bath via EV
They changed the batteries to what is called a lizard pack. Not sure how they achieved a more robust chemistry/structure. Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness... On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Michael Ross via EV

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 03/25/2015 03:14 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: Their instrumentation is not very linear. When fully (100%) charged, the state of charge gauge indicates 12 bars. The 12th bar lasts for about 3 miles on residential/commercial (25mph - bar left. The first 36 miles took 8 bars, the last 37.5

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Michael Ross via EV
I won't challenge your ideas of Li ion cell life here, but there is new information. We have gone around that recently on the list. Why Li ion batteries die. by Dr. Jeff Dahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs Dahn says that cells don't have to die, and I believe him. Rickard (EVTV)

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV
I think your point is clear, Willie2. You had a bad experience with Nissan and will never trust them again. That's understandable. So far you're happy with your Tesla, which is also understandable, especially given your range needs. I'm glad you found a better car for your purposes, and

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 25 Mar 2015 at 15:24, Willie2 via EV wrote: Have you ever wondered WHY the Leaf's instrumentation is so crappy? It seems to me that they must have intentionally made it so. Probably not. A predictive fuel gauge for an EV is a tough nut to crack. Just ask the manufacturers who've been

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:00 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: When it comes to estimating remaining range, the problem gets even more difficult. I think that's where the real problems come in -- and they're the exact same problems for any other vehicle. Are the miles

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:11 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV
Ben, I think the problem may be more subtle than you describe. Unless the manufacturer completely solves the problem of describing remaining capacity, the user won't have a gauge that reads 30 kWh of remaining capacity. The user will be faced with a gauge that still reads 50 kWh, without

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 03/25/2015 08:07 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:43 PM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ed, are you aware of the Android app Leaf Spy (I think is the name)? I don't have any experience with it but I have a similar thing for my imiev. With a $10-$60 OBD reader,

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV
On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:43 PM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ed, are you aware of the Android app Leaf Spy (I think is the name)? I don't have any experience with it but I have a similar thing for my imiev. With a $10-$60 OBD reader, it should give you the straight scoop on

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)

2015-03-25 Thread Jamie K via EV
On 3/25/15 2:48 PM, Michael Ross wrote: I won't challenge your ideas of Li ion cell life here, but there is new information. We have gone around that recently on the list. Why Li ion batteries die. by Dr. Jeff Dahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs Dahn says that cells don't have to