Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
I am responding to the message from Lee Hart regarding the LUKA EV. I am the person driving the project so I can answer all the questions raised... I will check this post works before I write the very long response. It is my first time on this forum.. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
David, You have raised some great points. I am the 'owner' of the LUKA project so let me try to address everything. The weight of the LUKA today is 741kg. (1634lbs). This includes the 2 battery packs. The bat pack is split in two for better weight distribution. The overall battery size is 19.2kwh. We have this smaller battery in this 'component testing' vehicle. Will we get there? We will get somewhere. This is still a project, not a commercial venture. If nothing else, we will leave an 'open source' legacy. Others can leverage from plans, bills of materials etc. We may prove that it is possible to make a car 'street legal' on a budget. We may prove that hub motors can work or maybe add more weight to the argument that they really do not work well enough today. We might serial produce the car, we might mass produce the car. We might sell bits that are hard for people to make as a 'kit'. A small personal aim is that at least I will be driving a LUKA to work every day. This is neither a marketing project nor a fantasy project. We are showing the project 'warts all' at hackaday. Hence some of the negative comments on the web from people who have not read all the project logs. What is on view at hackaday is a 'component testing' chassis. It has a specific purpose. To see if the body fits, to see where we will put all the components, to test all the components. The 'real' chassis will be similar but have the 'cage' built in, be treated, powder coated 'altered'. The 'car' you see in the pics videos is good enough to go for 'type approval'. It might pass. If it does not pass, we will get a list of things we need to change. These will be incorporated into the 'real' car. About Range 300km is what we expect to achieve from the smaller bat pack. We are not scientists. We are also not going to do range tests the way car companies do them. We will just drive the car down a highway see how far it goes. We will measure the actual journey on a cell phone app post the results at hackaday. If our projections are wrong, they are wrong. The reason we think we can get such a good range is because (we think) hub motors will have far less losses than a traditional electric engine. We have regen braking. The car is (as far as we know) very Aerodynamic. The great points you raise are about ownership, budget etc. It never crossed my mind to write these things at hackaday but on reading your post I can see the 'red flag' issue as real. I conceived the idea I am the financial backer of the project. There are no investors, no creditors (all components are paid for in advance) no full time employees. I own a company www.mauriceward.com This medium side company was established in 1968 operates in 15 European countries. It has about 1000 employees. The people who have helped me with the project are 4 guys from the IT dept who work this project after hours... If you look at the videos, you will notice that most of the truck in the background are Maurice Ward trucks. The MW Motors logo has the same bi-plane as Maurice ward co.. There was no intention to hide who we are but this is not a Maurice Ward group project per say, it is me a few of the guys seeing what we can achieve after hours. The 'budget' I have allocated to this is EUR100K. That has to cover all the tooling, the 'component testing' vehicle getting 2 x 'real' cars to e car tech Munich in October this year. That will be the official launch of the vehicle. We are well within that budget, even when we count the EUR7K or so we will need to pay for our little 20sqm stand at e car tech. I will be posting a spreadsheet at hackaday showing where how we spend the money. When we put the project on hackaday a short time ago, we really did not expect it would end up all over the internet. We very much thought a few people from the hacker community might see it.. So, the EUR100K gets us to the end of phase 1. If we stop at the end of phase 1, I will have 3 x very cool electric cars the world will have a blueprint for how to build cheapish electric cars using hub motors. If it looks like there is a demand for the car, we will look at serial / mass production. Any phase 2 would mean setting up a legal entity putting more money in.. But, we are in the unique position that we would not need investors, banks, debt etc. The timeline of less than a year is really thanks to the internet. We are not really car experts. We have good experience with FRP. Within a few days of the idea being hatched us figuring our how to make the body, the serious question 'how are we gonna build a street legal chassis' was raised. Someone said 'just google 'chassis makers. We found MEV http://www.mevltd.co.uk/ in the UK Stuart (the owner) build the 'rolling chassis' based on our 3D drawing of the body. Stuart is now helping us with the type approval in the UK (he thinks the project is cool so is now like one of the crew, not a supplier). The rest
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Thank you for taking the time to give such a lengthy explanation MWM. I understand your approach much better now, and think you will learn a lot and have some fun. You may make your goal in range at lower speeds with such a light vehicle. I have a 2260 lb Suzuki Swift and a spreadsheet that describes its performance quite accurately. I simply reduced the weight to 1634 lb in the spreadsheet to get a ball park number and got 61 Wh/km at 58 kph, 90 Wh/km at 100 kph. Will be interesting to see how it does. Good luck! -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675687.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 19 May 2015 at 15:43, MWM via EV wrote: You have raised some great points. I am the 'owner' of the LUKA project so let me try to address everything. Hi, Maurice (I take it you're Maurice himself), and welcome to the EVDL! Thanks for joining us, and for clearing up those points. I think your relatively modest goals are quite reasonable. I'll be keen to see how your effort progresses, and I'm sure others here will be too. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 19 May 2015 at 15:43, MWM via EV wrote: Hi, Maurice (I take it you're Maurice himself), and welcome to the EVDL! Thanks for joining us, and for clearing up those points. Yes, I am Maurice !.. EVDL is very good!!.. I will continue posting everything to the hackaday site. The link is https://hackaday.io/project/5066-luka-ev but I think you have to register at the site to see all the info.. I posted your message my reply on the hackaday site as I think your points were very good. If any EVDL folks have any questions about the LUKA EV I will do my best to answer them... -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675690.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 20 May 2015 at 16:08, David Nelson via EV wrote: A free online version of Excel is available. Thanks, but for me at least, that's not the problem. I have yet to find an excel spreadsheet that won't work in the FLOSS program Gnumeric. There might be some very complex ones that don't, but I'd expect something like this to be fine. The problem, as I see it, is access to the data file. That's solved if Lee posts it on his website. Lee could also send to to me, and I'd post it in the EVDL library. I also sent him a link to a free utility that converts spreadsheets to dynamic web pages. That again could go on his website, the EVDL library, or both, if the last two are OK with him. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:50 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the EVDL. A free online version of Excel is available. One way to get to it is to go to bing.com and click the OFFICE ONLINE link. If you don't have a MS account you can create one for free. -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 19 May 2015 at 0:50, Lee Hart via EV wrote: Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the results online? Maybe something like this: http://www.luisllamas.es/excel2html-convert-excel-sheets-to-html-with- formulas/ http://v.gd/Tkvreo David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Google docs, that allows you to share spreadsheets, so anyone can (online) fill out your spreadsheet, save it or just look at it. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:50 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses Mr23 via EV wrote: Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with all the other technical information? That's a good idea. I'll do it. Thanks Mr23! Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the EVDL. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 18 May 2015 at 13:40, Lee Hart via EV wrote: There is hope for going 186 miles on 24 KWH ... the Solectria Sunrise went over 200 miles on a charge with its 26 KWH nimh pack on *many* occasions, and even exceeded 300 miles with James Worden hypermiling at the wheel. This is true. A Sunrise prototype achieved 377 miles in the Tour de Sol. I should point out though that it was a specially prepared (read: stripped-out and highly optimized) prototype. So was the one that James Worden drove from Boston to New York (217mi), at speeds up to 65mph, with charge left over. This makes it hard to say what the Sunrise's real world range was. Others may know, but I've seen reports of 150 and 200 miles, so I'm going to make an irresponsibly wild guess and say perhaps 180mi. That would give us 145 Wh/mi at drop-dead DOD. Curiously, this efficiency is pretty close to the 150 Wh/mi that quite a few Solectria Force (Geo Metro conversion) owners have reported. This wouldn't be surprising. Their drivetrain was similar. The original Sunrise weighed a bit under 2300lb all up with battery. The Force's curb weight was close - 2100lb for the early model, 2450lb for the later one - even though it's a much smaller car. But the Sunrise had a big advantage over the Force in range. From what I can see, it came mostly from the fact that the Sunrise could carry a much bigger battery. A better comparison to the proposed Luka might be with Axel Krause's Mini- Evergreen. Although the Luka article is mum on dimensions, it looks to be closer in size to the two-place Mini-Evergreen than to the 5-place Sunrise. http://www.brusa.eu/en/development/applications/evergreen.html The Mini-Evergreen had a range of 220km (almost 140mi) at a steady 65km/h (40mph) round the Swiss countryside on an 18kWh battery. That's 129 Wh/mi. Now where have I seen that number before? Oh yeah, that's what you get when you compute the (unproven, speculative) Wh/mi claimed for this Luka EV. The Mini-Evergreen weighed 900kg (about 1985lb) including its 375kg (825lb) NiCd battery. Its aerodynamics couldn't have been anywhere close the Sunrise's slippery .17 CD, but looking at the photos of the Luka EV prototype, I'm not so sure that the Luka is much better. I'm no expert, but it looks to me like stylists had more to do with the Luka's shape than engineers. The Luka is supposed to weigh 1660lb all up. (I assume that includes the battery, but ...) That's 16% less than the Evergreen. So if it hits all its goals, then it might indeed have a chance at their efficiency target. My question is, will they get there? I don't know what Solectria's total Sunrise budget was, but I know they got something over a million bucks up front from Boston Edison and DARPA, and they worked on the car for at least 4 years. Lee Hart's effort to make the Sunrise into a kit car is a labor of love. I'm sure he's spent WAY less than Solectria did. But he's also been at it for about a decade now, and it looks like he still has a fair bit of work to go. Compare those - 4+ years, 10+ years - with the goals for the Luka. The article says nothing about the MW Motors budget, or where its funding comes from. It doesn't even tell us who's behind it, repeatedly and bizarrely attributing quotations to MW Motors and the team leader. (This is a huge red flag, IMO.) Regardless, whoever it is wants to dispatch the project in LESS THAN A YEAR. To me, that says they're going to be throwing bushel baskets of cash into labor and contract work. Where's the funding coming from? From whom? How stable is it? We don't know. The article carefully sidesteps those issues. This makes me worry about a couple of things. One is that this might turn out to be another investor-trolling effort. The other is that it's sincere, but will end up like hundreds of other similar ones. The money tree sheds its leaves, the staff are let go, the workshop goes quiet. The doors are locked on the unfinished project. Bills go unpaid. Eventually a court calls for the assets to be sold to pay part of the debts. All the work, materials, and good ideas scatter to the four winds. Let's hope that neither of these scenarios happens here. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Some folks may wish to work with excel, and save locally. I would still offer the xls. -Chris On May 19, 2015 12:50:29 AM CDT, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Mr23 via EV wrote: Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with all the other technical information? That's a good idea. I'll do it. Thanks Mr23! Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the EVDL. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/6e473270/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them. A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD, and not too much increase in vehicle weight due to this larger pack size - so higher specific energy cells than the 103 kWh/kg it presently has. This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675605.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 05/18/2015 09:51 AM, tomw via EV wrote: What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them. A range The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors? -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung weight. . -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors? -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
The numbers you post for Tesla do not include charger losses, the 216 Wh/mile does. The 196 Wh/mile number should be compared. Either way 216 or 196 is far less energy/mile than a Tesla S uses, so more efficient at moving one human around, which is the typical occupancy. Maybe you are considering efficiency as energy/mile-weight. Then the Tesla would be 325/4750 lb = 0.068 to 375/4750 = 0.079 and my car would be 196/2260 = 0.087, so the Tesla moves a unit weight more efficiently than my car assuming those numbers represent the same 50% mix of highway and city driving. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675619.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in general. Above 45 mph aerodynamics starts being more important than weight. This is why the the heavy first generation Toyota prius has good highway MPG. In general the stop and go nature of travel below 45 mph overwhelms the greater efficiency. We used a hill between my house and shop to work on the aerodynamics of my car. After playing with cardboard and tape (then later vinyl) we increased the coast downhill speed by 15 mph and decreased my 1/8 mile time by 2/10 with the same trap speed. After this my 2000 pound Daytona-look-a-like went from around 350 wh/mile to 312 wh/mile driving 15 miles with 6 stop lights 4 stop signs and a large hill and no-regeneration in both directions. This was testing done for X-prize competition and was well measured. -Original Message- From: tomw via EV Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:09 AM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses The numbers you post for Tesla do not include charger losses, the 216 Wh/mile does. The 196 Wh/mile number should be compared. Either way 216 or 196 is far less energy/mile than a Tesla S uses, so more efficient at moving one human around, which is the typical occupancy. Maybe you are considering efficiency as energy/mile-weight. Then the Tesla would be 325/4750 lb = 0.068 to 375/4750 = 0.079 and my car would be 196/2260 = 0.087, so the Tesla moves a unit weight more efficiently than my car assuming those numbers represent the same 50% mix of highway and city driving. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675619.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
I think you are wrong. The rule of thumb is weight / 10. For your car 2260/10=226 Wh/m You claim 216 so this fits. Tesla weighs 4700 lbs so it should use 470 Wh/m but it's between 325 and 375 Wh/m for most people. That comes to a 20% increase in efficiency over your car. From: tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them. A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD, and not too much increase in vehicle weight due to this larger pack size - so higher specific energy cells than the 103 kWh/kg it presently has. This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675605.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/85d49f11/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
We must be using different terminology. As best I understood it, the hub is the center of the wheel where the axle connects. The hubcap covers the hub. And I thought that hub motors are in the same basic location as the hubcap, with either the stator or rotor in the wheel and the other half in the axle. Unsprung weight is the wheels and that which is fixed to them. Sprung weight is the frame and that which is fixed to it. The springs connect the two. Components, such as axles, that are fixed to both frame and wheels contribute some of their weight to each. At absolute best, an axle motor would be partially sprung and partially unsprung. But once you put the motor in the wheel, in the hub, it's entirely unsprung. b On May 18, 2015, at 8:35 AM, Mark Grasser via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung weight. . -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 11:27 AM To: Ben Goren; Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses Maybe they have short axles and aren't truly hub motors? -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 18-May-15 8:24:54 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On 18 May 2015 at 11:35, Mark Grasser via EV wrote: Hub motors are sprung, they are in the hub, which is sprung, as in sprung weight. I'm not positive, but I think the car's website has it backward. I think the following is mostly correct; engineers please set me right if not. The body of a vehicle is sprung mass, because it's suspended on springs. The wheels are unsprung mass, unless you count the limited resiliency of the tires. Old fashioned solid axles are unsprung mass. In a modern car, some suspension components are unsprung mass. A motor mounted in the wheel or fastened to a solid axle is (a fair bit of) unsprung mass. A motor mounted to the vehicle body, driving the wheels through a flexible axle shaft, is sprung mass. In this case, the drive axles are partly sprung and partly unsprung, but I don't know how to calculate the proportions. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Ben Goren via EV wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, like the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or has a universal joint between it and the axle. Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor shaft and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the wheel is free to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the reduction unit). Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the suspension. Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Michael Kadie via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The correlation between weight and efficiency is true below 45 mph in general. That makes sense, and it's good news for my PHEV conversions...all-electric mode is going to be mostly around town and mostly at or below 45 MPH. Which means I should easily hit, for the Mustang at least, my goal of range performance roughly comparable to a Chevy Volt b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
I thought that at freeway speeds the weight of the vehicle doesn't make much difference. But how slippery it is does. Unless, of course, you're going 186 miles all uphill. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 18-May-15 11:40:19 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses tomw via EV wrote: At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. That excellent, Tom. Remind me again what your EV is? A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD... Should that be 80% DOD (i.e. 80% of the capacity of the pack used)? This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. There is hope for going 186 miles on 24 KWH. It just requires a very efficient design that is scratch-built as an EV, and not just an IC conversion or other car built with the same heavy steel construction as ICEs. For example, the Solectria Sunrise went over 200 miles on a charge with its 26 KWH nimh pack on *many* occasions, and even exceeded 300 miles with James Worden hypermiling at the wheel. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
When I built mine I did a spread sheet. It's all weight until you get up to highway speeds in excess of 65 miles per hour on my 86 Celica. From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: paul dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The rule of thumb is weight / 10. Oooh -- that's a very useful suggestion. How much does aerodynamics change that? In particular, I'm thinking of a 1964 1/2 Mustang with, I think, roughly a 0.5 cd. Final weight, though, should be roughly 3,000 pounds, maybe a bit over. And...a 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile, probably 4,000+ pounds and (literally!) the aerodynamics of a shoebox. I've been figuring that better than 500 Wh / mile would be gravy for either. Not that I'm expecting such low numbers, especially for the Mustang; just that, if that's what I use, there'll be plenty of Murphy factor such that my surprise at the real-world performance will be pleasant. (And, those who don't know: I'm looking at a PHEV through-the-ground conversion for both, retaining the RWD ICE drivetrain and adapting a FWD axle with the electric motor connected only to that.) b -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/9b756599/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 12:18 PM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: When I built mine I did a spread sheet. Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share? Because of the nature of the project, I'm not overly worried about battery range, but it's always better to refine expectations when possible. Thanks! b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Lee Hart wrote: ...have a long shaft on the motor... acts like a swing axle ...have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between motor shaft and wheel... Ben Goren via EV wrote: Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example, heard of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle. Much of this is defined by marketing, not engineering. If calling it a hub motor makes it sell, then it's called a hub motor. You'll find lots of examples of bicycle hub motors that have a high-speed motor with a gear reduction between it and the wheel, for example. Of course in bicycles, unsprung weight is much less of a problem due to the low speeds and general lack of suspension anyway. have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the suspension. Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design. True direct-drive hub motors pretty much *are* an impossible design. :-/ They only work if you're willing to sacrifice cost, performance, reliability, etc. just to have a hub motor. That means they only get used in specialized applications. You've either got no room for travel between stator and rotor and the two catastrophically collide the first time you run over a pebble, or else you've got an huge gap between the two with some sort of magnetic levitation keeping the wheels attached to the car and also somehow spinning. Indeed, the working examples do have these issues. They'll use McPherson strut suspension, so the wheel does move straight up/down. Then some kind of planar ball bearing, air cushion, or other means to keep the rotor and stator apart, or minimize the consequences of them touching (RPM is low, after all). -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On May 18, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote: Ben Goren via EV wrote: The URL posted for the car indicates that the hub motor(s) are sprung. Huh? How on Earth is _that_ supposed to work? One way is to have a long shaft on the motor. It acts like a swing axle, like the old VW Beetles. The motor itself is mounted so it can pivot, or has a universal joint between it and the axle. Another is to have a gear-, chain-, or belt-reduction between the motor shaft and the wheel. The motor mounts to the vehicle chassis, and the wheel is free to move up/down on a trailing arm (that also houses the reduction unit). Are any of those considered hub motor designs? I've never, for example, heard of an aircooled VW as an hub motor vehicle. Another is that they have an axial flux motor design, where the stator can be attached to the car chassis, but the rotor can move up/down with the suspension. Sounds like either a recipe for disaster or an impossible design. You've either got no room for travel between stator and rotor and the two catastrophically collide the first time you run over a pebble, or else you've got an huge gap between the two with some sort of magnetic levitation keeping the wheels attached to the car and also somehow spinning. Still another possibility is that the reporter is mistaken. Sounds like the answer b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Paul Dove wrote: When I built mine I did a spread sheet. Ben Goren via EV wrote: Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share? Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance calculations. This is a dead version for email purposes (filled out for my 1980 LeCar / Lectric Leopard EV), but it shows the equations for the calculations. Ben, I can send a live version to your email address if you like (let me know off-list). Renault LeCar HP vs. Speed Calculations by: Lee Hart HP = rolling resistance + power train loss + aerodynamic drag where rolling resistance = R W V / 375 R = tire roll resistance0.008 W = vehicle weight, lbs.2306 V = velocity, mph 5 power train loss = C W V^2 / 375 C = loss coefficient0.0002 I^2R, gear, bearing, stirring etc. aerodynamic drag = Cd A V^3 / 146,625 Cd = drag coefficient 0.35 A = frontal area, sq.ft.18 motor ADC L91 15 HP at 96 volts and 135 amps = 86% efficiency batteries 12 Concorde 12 v each weight (lbs)63 33% of curb wt 144 v total amp-hrs (20-hr rate)95 175 minutes at 25 amps Peukert amp-hrs 104 621 minutes at 8 amps Peukert exponent1.11 MPH 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 MotorHP 2.673.745.076.698.6210.91 13.57 16.66 Eff.66% 72% 77% 81% 84% 85% 86% 86% WattsIn 30393863489261607701955411762 14373 Amps22 28 36 45 56 70 86 105 Minutes 200 153 118 91 71 56 45 36 Miles 83 77 69 61 54 47 41 36 A spreadsheet makes it easy to play what if... games. What if I add a battery? What if I change from lead-acid to lithium? What if I reduce the weight, or improve aerodynamics, etc. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Lee Hart via EV wrote: Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance calculations... Grr... I'm sorry the columns don't line up. It seems like the modern web simply can't handle a plain ASCII text file any more. Programs insist on changing tabs, double spaces, fonts, etc. which messes up the columns. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Yes I agree that on average over different vehicle types the drag force generally becomes larger than the rolling resistance force at around 45 mph. The Tesla S is interesting in this regard though since it has very low Cd and not that large of cross sectional area for such a massive vehicle. As a result the drag force doesn't become larger than the rolling resistance force until significantly higher speed. The two forces are equal for my car at about 45 mph, drag force is about 50% larger at 55 mph, and about twice as large at about 65 mph. (Cd and rolling resistance estimates from roll down tests) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675640.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Mr23 via EV wrote: Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with all the other technical information? That's a good idea. I'll do it. Thanks Mr23! Hmm... does anyone know if there's an easy way to have an online active spreadsheet, where the viewer can fill in his data online, and see the results online? If I put it up as (for example) an .XLS file, people would have to download it, and have the right version of Excel to run it. If you know, contact me off-list, as it's getting off-topic for the EVDL. -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Thanks Lee. The car is a 2001 Suzuki Swift, www.evalbum.com/3060 Yes it should have been 80% DOD. Thanks, I corrected it. I keep the tires at about 36 psi (that's what the tire gauge says anyway). Cd = 0.32 and rolling resistance plus brake drag = 0.014 gave best fit to the roll down data, and the Cd agrees with the spec I found on line. The Tesla S has almost exactly the same CdA as this car. Pretty impressive for such a large vehicle. From that, and the much greater weight of the Tesla you can see drag force will not exceed rolling resistance force until quite a bit above 45 mph, the cross over point for my car. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675641.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
On Mon May 18 20:42:44 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said: The two forces are equal for my car at about 45 mph, drag force is about 50% larger at 55 mph, and about twice as large at about 65 mph. (Cd and rolling resistance estimates from roll down tests) I really should figure this out for my EV. 95 Ford F250. Around 6300 lbs. Anyone have the calcs handy? -- Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams... ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Lee, what about hosting your spreadsheets at your website, along with all the other technical information? -Chris On 5/18/2015 5:17 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: Paul Dove wrote: When I built mine I did a spread sheet. Ben Goren via EV wrote: Any chance you have a copy handy and would be willing to share? Here is a copy of the Excel spreadsheet I use for my performance calculations. This is a dead version for email purposes (filled out for my 1980 LeCar / Lectric Leopard EV), but it shows the equations for the calculations. Ben, I can send a live version to your email address if you like (let me know off-list). Renault LeCar HP vs. Speed Calculationsby: Lee Hart HP = rolling resistance + power train loss + aerodynamic drag whererolling resistance = R W V / 375 R = tire roll resistance0.008 W = vehicle weight, lbs.2306 V = velocity, mph5 power train loss = C W V^2 / 375 C = loss coefficient0.0002 I^2R, gear, bearing, stirring etc. aerodynamic drag = Cd A V^3 / 146,625 Cd = drag coefficient0.35 A = frontal area, sq.ft.18 motorADC L91 15 HP at 96 volts and 135 amps = 86% efficiency batteries12 Concorde12 v eachweight (lbs)63 33% of curb wt144 v totalamp-hrs (20-hr rate)95 175 minutes at25 ampsPeukert amp-hrs104 621 minutes at8 ampsPeukert exponent 1.11 MPH2530354045505560 MotorHP2.673.745.076.698.6210.91 13.5716.66 Eff.66%72%77%81%84%85%86%86% WattsIn303938634892616077019554 1176214373 Amps22283645567086105 Minutes2001531189171564536 Miles8377696154474136 A spreadsheet makes it easy to play what if... games. What if I add a battery? What if I change from lead-acid to lithium? What if I reduce the weight, or improve aerodynamics, etc. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
Generally speaking hub motors without shafts have a high unsprung weight and therefore have a rougher ride and a lot of stress on the motor. 24 kwh = 186 miles is more what I have problems with. 4 miles / kwh is great efficiency better than Tesla. The article did mention a max speed of 47 mph and rule of thumb at 45 mph aerodynamic forces are not significant so light weight vehicle does very well. Michael 'T-Rex' Kadie -Original Message- From: EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 8:08 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On 17 May 2015 at 19:22, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote: Personally, my skepticism revolves around the hub motors (pun intended). Lots of people have tried them, and few or none have succeeded. I'm sure I've missed some of the attempts, but this is one I recall that came close to success (though nowhere near production). They mention some handling problems but (I think) blame them on the somewhat high CG and narrow track. http://www.gaura.com/ev/luciole/index_e.html I have to confess that I've been smitten with this little gem since I first read of it in the late 1990s. It's impressive design work for college students, quite refined. What a pity it never even got close to production. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
