Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Dan Baker via EV]

Not to dig up an old bone, but I happen to be cruising this "institute's"
site, looking to see what "values" they were trying to bend lately.  Well
thankfully their focus wasn't on EVs lately, just more reports that our oil
companies are being taxed too much, our drug prices shouldn't be capped and
other pro-corporate media, ugh.   But I did happen to find this gem of a
video:

https://youtu.be/HUZnfeJdXK0

Pretty hilarious, almost a '60s kind of propaganda video.  I don't think
there is anyone in Canada trying to ban oil outright, it will be needed in
many other industries for the foreseeable time, but it certainly can be
reduced especially in transportation.  The scene at 1:12 where the SUV gets
turned into a small beater, supposedly electric car is classic.  Guess the
bicycle needed oil too?  Hope you all aren't suffering too much from your
sacrifice!  Enjoy.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 1:06 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:

> On 3 Aug 2017 at 16:27, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
> > From their site it's hard to tell where there funding comes from, they
> do list
> > their funding as 27% from businesses and 70% from "foundations".  One of
> their
> > Directors bios shows he has direct ties to big oil.
>
> It's kind of negative to say it, but this formula has been working for over
> 40 years, and not just with EVs.  To preserve their billions, the big money
> men invest millions in foundations and "think tanks."  I guess they figure
> that 1000:1 is a pretty good return on their money.  They are probably
> right.
>
> Many or most of these pseudo-educational institutions (many/most qualify as
> nonprofits and thus pay no taxes and can accept tax-deductible donations.
> They send smooth-talking people in $1000 suits with impressive sounding
> credentials to do soothing, "common sense" interviews with the news media.
> The media almost never question them, since the "experts" make the
> so-called
> journalists' jobs easy and their advertisers happy.
>
> The more recent enhancements to this scheme are psychographically targeted
> social media advertising and trolling.  Facebook (among others) is only too
> happy to take their money, and help them learn what pushes your buttons.
>
> The world might be in flames around them, and if that were what their
> masters wished, these people would smile and earnestly declare that there's
> no need to worry, everything is fine.
>
> I don't know how you beat them at their game.  The only method I know of
> that might combat this smooth, deliberate anti-EV propaganda is good old
> fashioned one-on-one in-person proselytizing in favor of EVs.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 3 Aug 2017 at 16:27, Dan Baker via EV wrote:

> From their site it's hard to tell where there funding comes from, they do list
> their funding as 27% from businesses and 70% from "foundations".  One of their
> Directors bios shows he has direct ties to big oil.

It's kind of negative to say it, but this formula has been working for over 
40 years, and not just with EVs.  To preserve their billions, the big money 
men invest millions in foundations and "think tanks."  I guess they figure 
that 1000:1 is a pretty good return on their money.  They are probably 
right.

Many or most of these pseudo-educational institutions (many/most qualify as 
nonprofits and thus pay no taxes and can accept tax-deductible donations.  
They send smooth-talking people in $1000 suits with impressive sounding 
credentials to do soothing, "common sense" interviews with the news media.  
The media almost never question them, since the "experts" make the so-called 
journalists' jobs easy and their advertisers happy. 

The more recent enhancements to this scheme are psychographically targeted 
social media advertising and trolling.  Facebook (among others) is only too 
happy to take their money, and help them learn what pushes your buttons.

The world might be in flames around them, and if that were what their 
masters wished, these people would smile and earnestly declare that there's 
no need to worry, everything is fine.

I don't know how you beat them at their game.  The only method I know of 
that might combat this smooth, deliberate anti-EV propaganda is good old 
fashioned one-on-one in-person proselytizing in favor of EVs.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I'll try to read the article later, but if you are talking about "city 
pollution" as the health-based pollution of ozone, particulates, etc. - then 
you are not referring to cutting greenhouse gases, per the OP. As a class, GHGs 
do not have acute health effects. 

That being said, reduction of  "city" pollutants can have a co-benefit of 
reducing GHGs, as some of them are also GHGs.

Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when people talk about health and GHGs.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 3, 2017, at 7:02 AM, Russ via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> I note that the publication focuses on wealth and nothing about health 
> anywhere in the article. The present range of EV's are particularly suited to 
> the reduction of city pollution and it will take more than the death of ICE's 
> to reduce CO2 reduction. One step at a time! 
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
>  Original message From: Dan Baker via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> Date: 03/08/2017  1:54 pm  (GMT+00:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and 
> ineffective? 
> Hello all,
> 
> Not sure if anyone has seen the article below:
> 
> In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
> provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
> cut greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expensive-and-ineffective
> 
> 
> Would anyone care to comment on this?  Agree or disagree?  Is it oil funded
> FUD? I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, one of the have-not provinces for EV
> rebates.  I can affirm that without rebates EV car sales here are pretty
> well nonexistent, most dealers here carry very little EV stock and the
> charging infrastructure is well behind provinces that do offer rebates.  I
> see other  media outlets and even local environmental groups regularly
> quoting this article too.  Sounds like my province will never get an
> incentive with this type of media :-(
> 
> Cheers
> Dan
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Dan Baker via EV]

Hey Lawrence

I agree your math is more correct.  I didn't see the article originally
when it came out but if you google the title of this thread you will see
lots of media outlets ran with it, mostly Canadian but some American ones
as well.  I saw it this morning when a local paper (metro news) ran an
article about more fast chargers coming to our province and they mentioned
the report.



On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Lawrence Harris via EV 
wrote:

> The EPA (https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-
> equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references <
> https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-
> calculations-and-references>) calculates 4.73 metric tons
> CO2/vehicle/year for a passenger car, so 47.3 over 10 years due to it’s
> operation vs their number of 37.4; a difference of 10 tons.  Manufacture is
> probably a lost leader since the amounts of CO2 would be roughly equivalent
> and variable in any event.  I also question the equivalence of the carbon
> markets as that more or less just shifts carbon production from one place
> to another and does not directly reduce it.
>
> Was this published in any public media?  The reference is to their web
> site and so it’s just an opportunity piece looking for an outlet.
>
> Regards,
> Lawrence Harris
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 3, 2017, at 05:54, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Not sure if anyone has seen the article below:
> >
> > In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
> > provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
> > cut greenhouse gas emissions.
> >
> > https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-
> expensive-and-ineffective
> >
> >
> > Would anyone care to comment on this?  Agree or disagree?  Is it oil
> funded
> > FUD? I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, one of the have-not provinces for EV
> > rebates.  I can affirm that without rebates EV car sales here are pretty
> > well nonexistent, most dealers here carry very little EV stock and the
> > charging infrastructure is well behind provinces that do offer rebates.
> I
> > see other  media outlets and even local environmental groups regularly
> > quoting this article too.  Sounds like my province will never get an
> > incentive with this type of media :-(
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dan
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Lawrence Harris via EV]

The EPA 
(https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references
 
)
 calculates 4.73 metric tons  CO2/vehicle/year for a passenger car, so 47.3 
over 10 years due to it’s operation vs their number of 37.4; a difference of 10 
tons.  Manufacture is probably a lost leader since the amounts of CO2 would be 
roughly equivalent and variable in any event.  I also question the equivalence 
of the carbon markets as that more or less just shifts carbon production from 
one place to another and does not directly reduce it.

Was this published in any public media?  The reference is to their web site and 
so it’s just an opportunity piece looking for an outlet.

Regards,
Lawrence Harris




> On Aug 3, 2017, at 05:54, Dan Baker via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Not sure if anyone has seen the article below:
> 
> In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
> provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
> cut greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expensive-and-ineffective
> 
> 
> Would anyone care to comment on this?  Agree or disagree?  Is it oil funded
> FUD? I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, one of the have-not provinces for EV
> rebates.  I can affirm that without rebates EV car sales here are pretty
> well nonexistent, most dealers here carry very little EV stock and the
> charging infrastructure is well behind provinces that do offer rebates.  I
> see other  media outlets and even local environmental groups regularly
> quoting this article too.  Sounds like my province will never get an
> incentive with this type of media :-(
> 
> Cheers
> Dan
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Dan Baker via EV]

From their site it's hard to tell where there funding comes from, they do
list their funding as 27% from businesses and 70% from "foundations".  One
of their Directors bios shows he has direct ties to big oil.  Even more, I
found they published yet another article against EVs:

Consumers will pay the price for electric vehicle quotas:

"Montreal, July 25, 2017 – The electric car sales quotas imposed on
manufacturers by the Quebec government will eventually increase the
marginal cost of conventional vehicles by $1,100, reveals a Viewpoint
published today by the MEI. Consumers will end up paying this “tax” through
higher car prices."

http://www.iedm.org/72410-consumers-will-pay-price-electric-vehicle-quotas

Sounds like the province of Quebec is enforcing minimum EV sales on
manufacturers, similar to California.  They predict this will only cause
oil powered vehicle's prices to increase.  I take it the end result they
predict isn't true for California?


On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Lee Hart  wrote:

> Dan Baker via EV wrote:
>
>> In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
>> provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
>> cut greenhouse gas emissions.
>>
>> https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expens
>> ive-and-ineffective
>>
>> Would anyone care to comment on this?
>>
>
> There really isn't any solid information at that link. There are no facts
> or figures, or verifiable data. It reads like an advertiser hyping up their
> product without giving you any solid information on how it actually works
> or compares to other products.
>
> I would want to know who funded this organization, and this study. We've
> seen too many examples of persuasive, well-written "hit" pieces that have
> not a shred of facts, financed by the oil or auto industries.
>
> --
> Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
> -- Dalai Lama
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Dan Baker via EV wrote:

In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
cut greenhouse gas emissions.

https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expensive-and-ineffective

Would anyone care to comment on this?


There really isn't any solid information at that link. There are no facts or 
figures, or verifiable data. It reads like an advertiser hyping up their product 
without giving you any solid information on how it actually works or compares to 
other products.


I would want to know who funded this organization, and this study. We've seen 
too many examples of persuasive, well-written "hit" pieces that have not a shred 
of facts, financed by the oil or auto industries.


--
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
-- Dalai Lama
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

This appears to be another case of an author or editor who decides in 
advance what outcome he (or the corporate sponsor) desires, and then tailors 
the data and analysis to reach that conclusion.

The tl;dr: money talks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Dan Baker wrote:

> Would anyone care to comment on this?  Agree or disagree?  Is it oil
> funded
> FUD? I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, one of the have-not provinces for EV
> rebates.  I can affirm that without rebates EV car sales here are pretty
> well nonexistent, most dealers here carry very little EV stock and the
> charging infrastructure is well behind provinces that do offer rebates.  I
> see other  media outlets and even local environmental groups regularly
> quoting this article too.  Sounds like my province will never get an
> incentive with this type of media :-(

The article questions the effectiveness of EV subsidies as a means of reducing 
carbon emissions, which I can't really comment on (other than to say that I'm 
not sure that carbon trading (the approach favoured by the authors) does 
*anything* to ~reduce~ carbon emissions: all it offers is a mechanism by which 
a country may emit more CO2 than it would otherwise be allowed by purchasing 
'credits' to emit CO2 from a country that is emitting less than it is allowed).

However, it does appear to me that EV subsidies are a ~very~ effective way to 
increase EV adoption.  I'm in Vancouver, and while the BC subsidies are not as 
generous as those in ON and PQ, EVs (mostly Leafs and Tesla, though iMiev, 
Smart ED, Bolt, Kia Soul EV, and even the odd Focus EV can be seen) are quite a 
common sight here.  The incentives also encourage purchase of PHEVs, so Chevy 
Volts are also not an uncommon sight.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Russ via EV]

I note that the publication focuses on wealth and nothing about health anywhere 
in the article. The present range of EV's are particularly suited to the 
reduction of city pollution and it will take more than the death of ICE's to 
reduce CO2 reduction. One step at a time! 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: Dan Baker via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Date: 03/08/2017  1:54 pm  (GMT+00:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: [EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and 
ineffective? 
Hello all,

Not sure if anyone has seen the article below:

In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
cut greenhouse gas emissions.

https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expensive-and-ineffective


Would anyone care to comment on this?  Agree or disagree?  Is it oil funded
FUD? I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, one of the have-not provinces for EV
rebates.  I can affirm that without rebates EV car sales here are pretty
well nonexistent, most dealers here carry very little EV stock and the
charging infrastructure is well behind provinces that do offer rebates.  I
see other  media outlets and even local environmental groups regularly
quoting this article too.  Sounds like my province will never get an
incentive with this type of media :-(

Cheers
Dan
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[EVDL] Electric vehicle subsidies: expensive and ineffective?

[Dan Baker via EV]

Hello all,

Not sure if anyone has seen the article below:

In a report released in June, the Montreal Economic Institute concluded
provincial subsidies were the most expensive, least effective way to help
cut greenhouse gas emissions.

https://www.iedm.org/71213-electric-vehicle-subsidies-expensive-and-ineffective


Would anyone care to comment on this?  Agree or disagree?  Is it oil funded
FUD? I live in Nova Scotia, Canada, one of the have-not provinces for EV
rebates.  I can affirm that without rebates EV car sales here are pretty
well nonexistent, most dealers here carry very little EV stock and the
charging infrastructure is well behind provinces that do offer rebates.  I
see other  media outlets and even local environmental groups regularly
quoting this article too.  Sounds like my province will never get an
incentive with this type of media :-(

Cheers
Dan
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